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	<title>Comments on: ¨Ordinary¨ South Africans stand up&#8230;. but what does it say about our nation?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: z</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-2003</link>
		<dc:creator>z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 06:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-2003</guid>
		<description>Thanks Wessel. An enlightening contribution. Maybe I should have been more specific in my worries. Vavi worries me a lot, maybe irrationally, but I welcome input in this regard. The SACP worry me. And as I said above I was impressed with NUM. 

Maybe all my fears are irrational. Maybe someone could convince me that their socialist ideas will solve our problems, but that has not yet happened.

Solidarity is doing some amazing things, the following is from Zuma&#039;s speech to them:
&quot;You support 25 feeding schemes across the country, exclusively black. You distributed 2000 school cases and stationery packages to school children, more than 50% of whom were poor grade 1 learners. We congratulate you for such patriotic duty, which is an example of nation building in practice.&quot;

Note Khosi: &quot;exclusively black&quot;

&quot;But since were polite on this blog these days&quot;
(;

I believe you are more likely to get people to hear your point of view, if you are willing to politely listen to theirs and try to understand others&#039; point of view. Shouting does not make anything you say more true.

But of course it is a mostly free country, so everyone can mostly say what they want to and how they want to. Don&#039;t let me hold you back!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Wessel. An enlightening contribution. Maybe I should have been more specific in my worries. Vavi worries me a lot, maybe irrationally, but I welcome input in this regard. The SACP worry me. And as I said above I was impressed with NUM. </p>
<p>Maybe all my fears are irrational. Maybe someone could convince me that their socialist ideas will solve our problems, but that has not yet happened.</p>
<p>Solidarity is doing some amazing things, the following is from Zuma&#8217;s speech to them:<br />
&#8220;You support 25 feeding schemes across the country, exclusively black. You distributed 2000 school cases and stationery packages to school children, more than 50% of whom were poor grade 1 learners. We congratulate you for such patriotic duty, which is an example of nation building in practice.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note Khosi: &#8220;exclusively black&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;But since were polite on this blog these days&#8221;<br />
(;</p>
<p>I believe you are more likely to get people to hear your point of view, if you are willing to politely listen to theirs and try to understand others&#8217; point of view. Shouting does not make anything you say more true.</p>
<p>But of course it is a mostly free country, so everyone can mostly say what they want to and how they want to. Don&#8217;t let me hold you back!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1997</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 05:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1997</guid>
		<description>Wessel, thanks for a good run-down on the virues and capacities of the SA Trade Unions, and their capabilities to solve problems like those we have at hand here. I agree. Also with your insight on the ANC&#039;s view of whites contributing and the willingness of whites to do so. As far as your comments on illegal immigation is concerned, I would like to add the following. If we can&#039;t stop illegal border-crossing at all, why bother having borders and sovereignty at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wessel, thanks for a good run-down on the virues and capacities of the SA Trade Unions, and their capabilities to solve problems like those we have at hand here. I agree. Also with your insight on the ANC&#8217;s view of whites contributing and the willingness of whites to do so. As far as your comments on illegal immigation is concerned, I would like to add the following. If we can&#8217;t stop illegal border-crossing at all, why bother having borders and sovereignty at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Wessel van Rensburg</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1994</link>
		<dc:creator>Wessel van Rensburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 02:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1994</guid>
		<description>&gt; is to use an impolite border ’snert’.

I&#039;m obviously not concentrating and typing to fast, too much to say, that&#039;s the problem.

I meant &#039;is to use an impolite term ’snert’.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; is to use an impolite border ’snert’.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m obviously not concentrating and typing to fast, too much to say, that&#8217;s the problem.</p>
<p>I meant &#8216;is to use an impolite term ’snert’.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Wessel van Rensburg</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1993</link>
		<dc:creator>Wessel van Rensburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 02:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1993</guid>
		<description>PS: Pierre to argue that we can&#039;t stop people from crossing the border is to use an impolite border &#039;snert&#039;. But since were polite on this blog these days, I&#039;ll say its wrong. No country, not even the UK which is an island successfully stops illegal immigration. But we have in the past and we can now slow it down dramatically.

If we can&#039;t do that, I&#039;m afraid theres no point in talking about anything else. We might as well give up now. No developmental state with our challenges would cope with having an ever growing pool of people to pull out of poverty. 

What&#039;s more, if SA was to be successful in helping its poor, the pressure to immigrate here would just grow.

I no its not a trendy issue with lefties, immigration control. But we live in the real world. If were serious about the future we need to be serious about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: Pierre to argue that we can&#8217;t stop people from crossing the border is to use an impolite border &#8217;snert&#8217;. But since were polite on this blog these days, I&#8217;ll say its wrong. No country, not even the UK which is an island successfully stops illegal immigration. But we have in the past and we can now slow it down dramatically.</p>
<p>If we can&#8217;t do that, I&#8217;m afraid theres no point in talking about anything else. We might as well give up now. No developmental state with our challenges would cope with having an ever growing pool of people to pull out of poverty. </p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, if SA was to be successful in helping its poor, the pressure to immigrate here would just grow.</p>
<p>I no its not a trendy issue with lefties, immigration control. But we live in the real world. If were serious about the future we need to be serious about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Wessel van Rensburg</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1992</link>
		<dc:creator>Wessel van Rensburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 00:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1992</guid>
		<description>Cosatu is an umbrella organisation of which NUM is the most powerful member. Cyril Rhamaphosa, Vavi, Gwede Mantashe (my favourite) and most leader of Cosatu come from NUM.

Cosatu and their member Unions are far from perfect, but the very nature of their membership make them much more responsible and responsive. A union leadership is not voted in once every 5 years. It&#039;s a constant job looking after the best interests of their members. They not only interact, but work next to their constituencies every day.

In South Africa, because business has been so mercenary and government non existent our unions have had to play roles that other unions across the world do not. What role? The role of nurturing domestic business.

In the Cape, the researcher and senior official for the Clothes and Allied Worker Union is a guy called Etienne Vlok. Etienne&#039;s union has been working on all manner of schemes including organising large international fashion shows to grow their sector, manufacturing for the fashion industry. 

It&#039;s the union that put up websites about the skills and facilities available, it&#039;s the unions that lobby the government. All things that governments do in other countries.

Last year I attended a NUM conference. NUM had appointed the Sociology of Work Unit at Wits to look at declining levels of solidarity and ethinic tensions at the mines. The research was conducted by Andries Bezuidenhout. They were very concerned about the evidence he presented and I can garantee you that they took action. That is what I call proactive thinking what this government so clearly lacks. NUM obviosly cares for its members.

Recently the unions organised a meeting about growing industry in this country. One of the delegates asked&quot; &quot;How did the Afrikaners do it?&quot; 

That i can safely say, is not a question you will hear from the racially exclusive ideological black hole that is the ANC.

Solidariteit has recently conducted ground breaking research showing that the gaps between executive remuneration in this country, and what ordinary workers get is the highest in the world. Theirby strengthening worker&#039;s hands in wage negotiations. This is the kind of thing that labour departments normally do.

And I am not sure if you aware, but Solidariteits website, has been voted the top Union website in the world. And Numsa was also right up there. 
http://mhambi.blogspot.com/2007/02/solidariteit-and-numsa-top-of-union.html

As to the issues of &#039;whites contributing&#039;
I said this before, Khosi I can assure you that white South Africans will jump through many hoops and climb many mountains if they knew that their actions would contribute to a successful country.

Problem is the ANC has squandered that oh so valuable currency namely trust.

Mbeki and the ANC&#039;s definition of whites helping the country is - give us your money, your land and don&#039;t moan. 

Firstly why use race and not class? Why sully the debate? Secondly, the best way the privileged can contribute to make the lives of the poor better is through doing management and training. (Yes you can tax them too, and you can do that every month.) 

You can give your money once or your land once. But that does not mean the recipient can use it productively. 

The big problem is of course that the ANC of Thabo prefers incompetents if the privileged are white.

z I think you have an irrational fear of the unions and I think you should try and attend their meetings. It&#039;s refreshing. It&#039;s professional and non racial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cosatu is an umbrella organisation of which NUM is the most powerful member. Cyril Rhamaphosa, Vavi, Gwede Mantashe (my favourite) and most leader of Cosatu come from NUM.</p>
<p>Cosatu and their member Unions are far from perfect, but the very nature of their membership make them much more responsible and responsive. A union leadership is not voted in once every 5 years. It&#8217;s a constant job looking after the best interests of their members. They not only interact, but work next to their constituencies every day.</p>
<p>In South Africa, because business has been so mercenary and government non existent our unions have had to play roles that other unions across the world do not. What role? The role of nurturing domestic business.</p>
<p>In the Cape, the researcher and senior official for the Clothes and Allied Worker Union is a guy called Etienne Vlok. Etienne&#8217;s union has been working on all manner of schemes including organising large international fashion shows to grow their sector, manufacturing for the fashion industry. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the union that put up websites about the skills and facilities available, it&#8217;s the unions that lobby the government. All things that governments do in other countries.</p>
<p>Last year I attended a NUM conference. NUM had appointed the Sociology of Work Unit at Wits to look at declining levels of solidarity and ethinic tensions at the mines. The research was conducted by Andries Bezuidenhout. They were very concerned about the evidence he presented and I can garantee you that they took action. That is what I call proactive thinking what this government so clearly lacks. NUM obviosly cares for its members.</p>
<p>Recently the unions organised a meeting about growing industry in this country. One of the delegates asked&#8221; &#8220;How did the Afrikaners do it?&#8221; </p>
<p>That i can safely say, is not a question you will hear from the racially exclusive ideological black hole that is the ANC.</p>
<p>Solidariteit has recently conducted ground breaking research showing that the gaps between executive remuneration in this country, and what ordinary workers get is the highest in the world. Theirby strengthening worker&#8217;s hands in wage negotiations. This is the kind of thing that labour departments normally do.</p>
<p>And I am not sure if you aware, but Solidariteits website, has been voted the top Union website in the world. And Numsa was also right up there.<br />
<a href="http://mhambi.blogspot.com/2007/02/solidariteit-and-numsa-top-of-union.html" rel="nofollow">http://mhambi.blogspot.com/2007/02/solidariteit-and-numsa-top-of-union.html</a></p>
<p>As to the issues of &#8216;whites contributing&#8217;<br />
I said this before, Khosi I can assure you that white South Africans will jump through many hoops and climb many mountains if they knew that their actions would contribute to a successful country.</p>
<p>Problem is the ANC has squandered that oh so valuable currency namely trust.</p>
<p>Mbeki and the ANC&#8217;s definition of whites helping the country is &#8211; give us your money, your land and don&#8217;t moan. </p>
<p>Firstly why use race and not class? Why sully the debate? Secondly, the best way the privileged can contribute to make the lives of the poor better is through doing management and training. (Yes you can tax them too, and you can do that every month.) </p>
<p>You can give your money once or your land once. But that does not mean the recipient can use it productively. </p>
<p>The big problem is of course that the ANC of Thabo prefers incompetents if the privileged are white.</p>
<p>z I think you have an irrational fear of the unions and I think you should try and attend their meetings. It&#8217;s refreshing. It&#8217;s professional and non racial.</p>
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		<title>By: z</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1988</link>
		<dc:creator>z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 15:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1988</guid>
		<description>They are affiliated with Cosatu as far as I know. And yes they should play a valuable role (and I did see that as you main point), I fear they have been flexing their muscles too much and are starting to get a big head!

The soccer thing is indeed shocking. No HORRIFYING! You can argue all the reasons for the Xenophobia, but none explains the lack of value for human life. As I mentioned earlier, far less violence (such as in the Cape) would have had the same effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are affiliated with Cosatu as far as I know. And yes they should play a valuable role (and I did see that as you main point), I fear they have been flexing their muscles too much and are starting to get a big head!</p>
<p>The soccer thing is indeed shocking. No HORRIFYING! You can argue all the reasons for the Xenophobia, but none explains the lack of value for human life. As I mentioned earlier, far less violence (such as in the Cape) would have had the same effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1987</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 15:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1987</guid>
		<description>Z, I to an extent agree with your take on Cosatu and SACP, perhaps because they have been too involved in politics (in the Tripartite Alliance) - and even corruption - rather than with the interests of the people (labourers), whereas NUM has been more pro-active. But then again, isn&#039;t NUM affiliated to / alligned wih Cosatu? That aside, the point I think Wessel and I wanted to make is that organizations like trade unions and NGO&#039;s (&#039;civil society&#039;) need to play a stronger role because government at the moment appears quite perplexed at the problem. A good friend of mine (black) just told me that last week in Germiston he had to make a u-turn under police protection when a blood-hungry crowd were noticed playing soccer with the head of someone who has been decapitated moments earlier in Xenophobic violence. Gruesome! This is the kind of thing that should shock government into action, but to no avail at present (I read however that government says that it now has the situation under control.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Z, I to an extent agree with your take on Cosatu and SACP, perhaps because they have been too involved in politics (in the Tripartite Alliance) &#8211; and even corruption &#8211; rather than with the interests of the people (labourers), whereas NUM has been more pro-active. But then again, isn&#8217;t NUM affiliated to / alligned wih Cosatu? That aside, the point I think Wessel and I wanted to make is that organizations like trade unions and NGO&#8217;s (&#8217;civil society&#8217;) need to play a stronger role because government at the moment appears quite perplexed at the problem. A good friend of mine (black) just told me that last week in Germiston he had to make a u-turn under police protection when a blood-hungry crowd were noticed playing soccer with the head of someone who has been decapitated moments earlier in Xenophobic violence. Gruesome! This is the kind of thing that should shock government into action, but to no avail at present (I read however that government says that it now has the situation under control.)</p>
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		<title>By: z</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1986</link>
		<dc:creator>z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 15:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1986</guid>
		<description>Mqo

It&#039;s time to visit that lovely lady and get the piece translated so you can add your voice!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mqo</p>
<p>It&#8217;s time to visit that lovely lady and get the piece translated so you can add your voice!</p>
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		<title>By: z</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 15:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>I just want to mention that I would not be glad if Cosatu won after going on their own (if they do). But more parties on the landscape could help politically as many here have stated. 

Cosatu said in run up to Polokwane that the alliance would not survive another Mbeki term. Maybe if they don&#039;t see Zuma being their champion, they might just do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to mention that I would not be glad if Cosatu won after going on their own (if they do). But more parties on the landscape could help politically as many here have stated. </p>
<p>Cosatu said in run up to Polokwane that the alliance would not survive another Mbeki term. Maybe if they don&#8217;t see Zuma being their champion, they might just do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mqo</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/%c2%a8ordinadry%c2%a8-south-africans-stand-up-but-what-does-it-say-about-our-nation/#comment-1984</link>
		<dc:creator>Mqo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 14:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=560#comment-1984</guid>
		<description>Encore z, encore!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Encore z, encore!</p>
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