Constitutional Hill

A note on Afrikaners and tribalism

I am not a tribalist and I am opposed to tribalism in all its forms, whether practiced by Zulu nationalists dancing outside a Jacob Zuma court appearance while wearing “100% Zulu boy” T-shirts or whether practiced by Afrikaner nationalists at a Volksfees at the Voortrekkermonument, singing along to Steve Hofmeyer songs and muttering under their breath about the “black government ruining South Africa and persecuting the Afrikaans language and culture”.

Tribalism has bedevilled politics in many parts of Africa, referring as it does to the possession of a strong cultural or ethnic identity that separates one member of a group from the members of another group, an identity often deployed to facilitate political mobilisation of that tribe against perceived enemies and threats. Often tribalism goes hand in hand with chauvinism, the notion that one’s own tribe is culturally, spiritually and morally superior to those who do not belong to ones tribe. Tribalism is thus obviously divisive and exclusionary and Nelson Mandela, preaching unity in diversity, warned of the dangers of tribalism in our democratic state.

Tribalism is also, on a personal level, stifling and oppressive and not easily squared with the notion of the protection of human dignity, which assumes that we all have some agency to decide for ourselves who we are and how we want to live. It assumes that because one shares certain characteristics, cultural attributes, a language or a particular kinship bond with others, one should think and behave like the group and associate with it. It demands loyalty to the group and conformity to its beliefs and its political project – no matter how obnoxious, oppressive or downright murderous that political project might be.

This kind of identity politics is by its very nature conservative and intolerant of difference (differences within the group as well as differences between the group and those who do not belong to it). Tribalists usually do not embrace the full spectrum of human possibilities as it sees identity primarily or – in extreme cases exclusively – in tribal terms. But in order to live meaningful lives it is important to embrace and celebrate the multiplicity of overlapping identities that make us who we are.

That is why I am not a great fan of “Afrikaners” (or Zulu’s for that matter) organising around their tribal identity, as if the architects of apartheid were correct and as if there are only minority groups in South Africa – all members of different tribes – who must therefore organise around their tribal identities to protect or advance their own financial and political interests.

I am a white, Afrikaans speaking South African. But I am also a gay, HIV positive, constitutional law professor; a citizen of the world who travels widely and reads the poetry of Wislawa Szymborska and Wally Serote; a rugby supporter who listens to Zahara and Ntando in my spare time; a loving brother of four sisters; an atheist who would never dream of joining the ATKV and would laugh out loud if I were ever to be confronted by the bizarre exhortations of the local NG Kerk dominee.

Although I am proudly Afrikaans speaking, I am decidedly not an “Afrikaner”. In my eyes an “Afrikaner” is a highly political concept and a problematic one at that; it is an exclusionary identity as it refers to a group of white Afrikaans speaking people who more or less share a political orientation, cultural habits and assumptions, religious beliefs and a persecution complex that would even make Judge President John Hlophe blush. By saying that I am not an Afrikaner, I am not trying to pretend that my forefathers did not enthusiastically enforce apartheid and that I am still benefiting from it as a result. But I am saying that I reject the political label of Afrikaner because it says nothing about who I am, what I think, how I behave, who I am friends with and what makes me comfortable.

So when I read in the papers that the ANC has met with a group of “Afrikaners”, purportedly conveying to the ANC the views of “Afrikaners” about what is wrong with current day South Africa, I wonder who these people are speaking for and I wonder why the ANC is humouring them. It does not help that Afrikaans groups at the meeting included all the usual suspects, the very institutions which developed and implemented and championed apartheid: the Afrikanerbond, the NG Kerk, the Voortrekker Monument, the Afrikaanse Taal en Kultuurvereniging, the Afrikaanse Taalraad and the Federation of Governing Bodies of SA Schools.

Maybe it says something about the rightward turn inside the ANC under Jacob Zuma that the ANC has deemed it important enough to meet with this tribal group and is, in effect, endorsing this kind of tribalism. Maybe it says something about the racism embedded in our society. Why is it that when rich white Afrikaans speakers complain, the ANC is prepared to send a high-powered delegation to speak to them, but when social movements like Khulumani, the Landless People’s Movement or Abahlali baseMjondolo complain, they are mostly ignored.

Maybe it says something about the power of money and the economic power of white Afrikaans speaking South Africans that the ANC jumps when the so called “Afrikaners” complain, but will never bend over backwards like this if the complaints emanate from powerless and economically vulnerable groups.

There are lots to complain about in South Africa and, goodness knows, the ANC has a lot of explaining to do. But I would prefer a non-tribalist engagement with the ANC, one that would not be made possible only because the ANC is able to neatly put me in a box as somebody who fits the political description of an “Afrikaner”. The kind of engagement I am talking about is the engagement by NGO’s and social movements, academics and civil society interest groups – and of course, by all people who know that our Constitution allows them to be active citizens (as citizens, not as members of a tribal group), to protest and engage and argue and ridicule the arrogant and the cynical holders of political power.

  • Steven

    A good read. Well put, although some might only read the words: GAY, HIV POSITIVE and someone who loves blacks.

  • Michael

    Thank you. Beautifully posed argument, simple communication of your point.
    I’ll return to this website.

  • Sine

    Wow. It reads like you spoke from the heart Prof. Well written piece.

  • Gwebecimele

    PdV

    There shouldn’t be a problem when an organised group want to meet the ANC and discuss their concerns. But you might have a point about the inconsistency from the side of the ANC. It will be interesting to know who paid for the venue in Sandton?
    Lets the other groups will be provided the same status.

  • Gideon

    Those who are currently very vocal in the ruling party have shown in many occasions that they are tribalists themselves. Maybe the meeting was a fact finding mission as to how to thrive in a democratic SA as a tribalist movement. Remember that Afrikaners (not Afrikaans speaking people) have survived apartheid and democracy. That is the best institution to learn to become a strong tribe. Thanks Prof for a very good article. I am a Venda speaking and I refuse to put an old Venda Republic flag sticker on the bumper of my car. Just like you I am not a tribalist

  • Moss

    Hoor hoor. There’s often a fine line between cultural organisations and nationalist ones, but the difference is profound. We’ve been down this road and it was an unpleasant journey; let’s not follow the African nationalists down the same path again.

  • Andrew

    This blog deals primarily with the reasons as to why organising along tribal lines may be problematic.

    I thought it was interesting to see coloured faces amongst this group of ‘Afrikaners’ .

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Steven
    May 9, 2012 at 16:01 pm

    Steven,

    “GAY, HIV POSITIVE and someone who loves blacks.”

    Which of that do you take issue with?

    Or rather which of those do you consider the worse of the evils – being gay, being HIV positive or “loves blacks”?

  • Vuyo

    Nice post PdV.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Hey PdV,

    What is “proudly Afrikaans speaking” as distinct from “Afrikaans speaking”?

  • Michel Weij

    Amen prof!

  • http://gormendizer.co.za Johan Swarts

    John Shelby Spong (an episcopal bishop) remarked that he doesn’t know how to react to the likes of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, because the god they actively hate is the same god he actively hates. Yet he doesn’t consider himself an atheist.

    Similarly, I would like to react to this piece by simply stating that the kind of “Afrikaner” behaviour you (apparently?) abhor is the kind of behaviour I also abhor.

    You’re describing a straw man.

  • Sipho

    Well written Prof-our people are only remembered by ANC during political campaigns. However, with regard to tribalism: I’m Zulu young boy who was born by Xhosa mother who hail from deep rural area of Eastern Cape buri can say very loud that South Africa in point of view may find itself in the deep slope of 1992 if Zuma lose power in mangaung. Let’s wait and observe

  • Vuyo

    Gwebecimele says:
    May 9, 2012 at 16:20 pm

    “There shouldn’t be a problem when an organised group want…”

    I think that’s a capitalist outlook. Organized groups based on race/culture are instruments of class warfare by the bourgeoisie. All such differentiation serves only to strengthen capitalists by reducing the potential of unity between the workers. They create a false distinction between workers based solely on arbitrary considerations such as language, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. The reality is that there is more of an alignment of interests between me and the AWB supporting wage slave, than he has with a capitalist land owning AWB member (or even as I do with Cyril Ramaphosa), despite all efforts of the plutocracy to argue otherwise. Therefore for this Afrikaner wage slave to associate with a group purely on the basis of being Afrikaner is an abortion of his interests. Its concerning that the ANC chooses to meet with groups in this manner. In fact, the ANC seems to have adopted (or is adopting) the very trick of the plutocracy by legitimating identity politics created by apartheid-plutocrats to divide the workers and undermine the struggle against the bourgeoisie, in order to foster the continued division of the working class. The ANC is therefore certainly (becoming) right wing, and is increasingly becoming the enemy of the working class. The question is why is it following such a direction? Have the leaders sold out? Are we to assume that bourgeoisie has attained full spectrum dominance of the South African body politic (by inter alia its control of the major political parties, the DA, ANC, COPE, etc, the unions, the SACP, civil society and the propaganda instruments, including the media, the schooling system and academia)?

  • sirjay jonson

    I agree Prof, a great blog post, and one from the heart.

    Re: “… as if the architects of apartheid were correct and as if there are only minority groups in South Africa – all members of different tribes – who must therefore organise around their tribal identity to protect their own financial and political interests.”

    Unfortunately, the present regime does think in term of tribalism, therefore it is easy to understand why they approach the Afrikaner block as a tribe. Whether we are or are not tribalists, and I am not, however tribal identities, issues and appearance are very real.

    As a legal alien in South Africa, I see the Afrikaner as a tribe. Regardless of their history (and the Zulu history is equal or more so in terms of violence and oppression), I don’t see how one can rectify the challenges of South Africa without first realizing that this is a country of tribes. To not accept this is being in denial.
    Even the colored, as a homogeneous group appears to me as a tribe, although somewhat disempowered and vulnerable, like all those not in possession of national political power.

    Your intent, however, in my view is correct, ahead of your time.

  • http://zerply.com/ginodepeers KG

    Always great to read your blogposts Prof. Die spesifieke een slaan die spyker op die kop.

    Especially since another Professor claimed lastnite on TalkRadio 702 that he was the mediator between these #Afrikaner Groups and the #ANC, he however did not call it #AfrikanerGroups but #Afrikaans speaking individuals which included “bruin mense” the newspapers reported the opposite though.

    Thanks again for a great piece.

    KG
    Joburg

  • sirjay jonson

    @KG: “Die spesifieke een slaan die spyker op die kop.”

    Ek stem saam honderd persent.

  • Brett Nortje

    Ag toe, Pierrot. Ons weet wat motiveer jou. Jou pa verteenwoordig vir jou alle Afrikaners en jy dink jou pa was ‘n d..s.

    Beweeg aan, toe.

    Wat dink jy motiveer jou koddige coterie?

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Moordverdagte-skerts-op-Facebook-20120509

    Verdagte skerts op Facebook

    2012-05-09 08:39
    Jana van der Merwe en Kaydene Jordaan

    “WERK vir myself en mal daaroor!”

    Só lui een van Gerhard Fourie (44) van Bloemfontein se vermeende moordenaars, Amos Limba (32), se inskrywings op sy Facebook-profiel.

    Benewens die rooftog wat Fourie se lewe gekos het, word Limba, van die Oos-Kaap, ook in dié provinsie verdink van ’n vlaag rooftogte.

    Limba, wat eergister in die Bloemfonteinse landdroshof verskyn het, het oënskynlik salig met sy lewe aangegaan terwyl Fourie in die hospitaal om sy lewe geveg het.

    Fourie is op 2 Mei dood, twee weke nadat hy in ’n gewapende rooftog koelbloedig in die kop geskiet en van R10 000 beroof is. Op 4 Mei het sy familie in die Bainsvlei-begraafplaas langs sy graf gestaan.

    Volgens kapt. Sandra Janse van Rensburg, Oos-Kaapse polisiewoordvoerder, word Limba van verskeie gewapende rooftogte in die Oos-Kaap verdink.

    Hy het vroeër in die landdroshof in Port Elizabeth op ’n aanklag van gewapende roof verskyn en is op borgtog vrygelaat.

    Die oggend wat Fourie op pad terug van die bank af voor sy werkplek koelbloedig met ’n pistool in die kop geskiet en beroof is, het Limba op Facebook oor ’n seer keel gekla. Die dag ná die skietery en rooftog het Limba sokkerondersteuners van Madrid gemaan om Barcelona nie af te skryf nie.

    Die dag voor Fourie se dood het hy saam met vriende gekuier. Hulle het volgens sy Facebook-inskrywing op dié dag whisky gedrink, vis gebraai en ’n calamari-pot gemaak. Dít terwyl hy volgens die polisie met “maklik 18” gewapende rooftogte in die Oos-Kaap verbind word.

    Die polisie in die Vrystaat en Oos-Kaap het bevestig hy word verbind met ’n rowerbende wat mense wat groot bedrae geld in banke trek, agtervolg en beroof.

    Fourie, wat ’n finansiële klerk van Electro Trust was, het kort voordat hy geskiet is, geld vir dié onderneming by die Nedbank-tak in Tweedelaan getrek.

    Die polisie vermoed die rowers het hom van die bank af agtervolg. Een van die rowers het na bewering in die bank agter hom in die tou gestaan.

    Die polisie in die Vrystaat het gister gesê hulle soek nog twee mans – een wat gehelp het om Fourie te beroof en die bestuurder van ’n wit Toyota Corolla wat Fourie agtervolg het.

    Speurders van die Valke het Limba Donderdag by die Bloemfonteinse landdroshof vasgetrek waar hy ook in ’n ander verhoor teregstaan.

    Die polisie het vroeër gesê kapt. Francois Laux, ao. Pieter Louw en ao. Bennie de Klerk se ondersoek het hulle na die hof gelei.

    Limba is vasgetrek ’n dag nadat Fourie aan veelvuldige orgaanversaking oorlede is.

    - Volksblad

  • Brett Nortje

    Here’s the thing: Saner individuals in the ANC know how Juliass damaged race relations in this country and they know he provoked a ‘FUCK YOU RIGHT BACK!’ response from many of his white target audience. (Not the hand-wringing appeasers lile , er, um…)

    How to get past it without taking responsibility?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 9, 2012 at 21:33 pm

    Eish G,

    “Saner individuals in the ANC know how Juliass damaged race relations in this country”

    Are you mad???

    Ok don’t answer that.

    But do try to take some Get-Sane tabs!

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    The president of the United States has just endorsed gay marriage—putting him not just in stark opposition to Mitt Romney but to Americans who firmly oppose it and have defeated every state referendum designed to legalize it.

    Obama made the declaration to ABC News just three days after Joe Biden said he was “absolutely comfortable” with men marrying men and women marrying women—which prompted some administration officials to suggest the vice president was freelancing and that his remarks had not been cleared in advance.

    While Obama insisted he was speaking personally, rather than mounting a campaign to change state laws: “I have to tell you that over the course of several years as I have talked to friends and family and neighbors when I think about members of my own staff who are in incredibly committed monogamous relationships, same-sex relationships, who are raising kids together, when I think about those soldiers or airmen or Marines or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf and yet feel constrained, even now that ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ is gone, because they are not able to commit themselves in a marriage, at a certain point I’ve just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same-sex couples should be able to get married,” Obama told ABC’s Robin Roberts.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/05/09/president-obama-in-a-dramatic-shift-backs-same-sex-marriage.html

  • Sine

    sirjay jonson says:
    May 9, 2012 at 17:51 pm

    I am not Zulu but this is very much a bulls**t comment from you; “(and the Zulu history is equal or more so in terms of violence and oppression)”

    Only an ignorant person would equate the violance pepetrated by Afrikaans speaking people to the one pepetrated by Zulu. But then again, maybe I should focus on that paragraph’s opening words; “As a legal alien in South Africa”

  • Brett Nortje

    Good point, Sne.

    We have nowhere near the bodycount. Not even on the page.

  • Jama ka Sijadu
  • Brett Nortje

    If this kid had not been disarmed he would still be alive!

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Rowers-skiet-man-dood-wat-sy-suster-red-20120509

    Rowers skiet man dood wat sy suster red
    2012-05-09 23:42
    Riata Nel
    ’n Gewonde 21-jarige man van Vereeniging het gewapende rowers gister tot by sy ouerhuis se buitemuur gejaag voordat hy inmekaargesak en gesterf het.

    Nico Daffue het sy suster, Lieja (19), te hulp gesnel toe hy geskiet is.

    Lieja se vierjarige dogtertjie, Tanja, het gisteroggend gesê: “Ek soek monster wat Nico doodgemaak het, maar ek kry hom nie.”

    Die rowers het net ná 04:30 op die Daffues se ouerhuis in Outeniquastraat, Sonlandpark, toegeslaan.

    Lieja het op die bank voor die sitkamervenster geslaap.

    “Die rowers het die venster drie keer geslaan voordat dit gebreek het. Ek het op die grond geval en gekruip. Ek het geskree,” het sy aan Beeld gesê.

    Een van die drie rowers het deur die stukkende venster na binne geleun. Lieja het in sy oë gekyk.

    “Ek het net oë en hande gesien. My boetie bly in die buitekamer en het om die huis gehardloop en die man uit die venster gepluk.

    “Hulle het baklei. Ek het ’n skoot gehoor en in die donker net ’n vlam gesien.”

    Haar broer was toe weg.

    “Ek het eers gedink hulle het hom gevat. Ons het hom ’n rukkie later op die grasperk gekry. Hy was dood.”

    Nico se ma, Michelle, sy broer Dawie, Lieja en Tanja was by die huis toe hy vermoor is.

    Sy pa, Nico sr., werk in Rustenburg. Hy is inderhaas terug huis toe toe hy hoor sy kind is vermoor.

    Rowers het vroeër die oggend by die huis van Jaco Wiggins (36) in dieselfde straat probeer inbreek. “Die honde slaap by ons in die huis omdat ons bang is hulle word vergiftig,” het Wiggins gesê.

    Hy het die honde by die voordeur laat uitgaan. “Skote is afgevuur. Ek het dadelik die deur toegemaak en die hek gesluit. Die honde was buite.”

    Die koeëls is deur die voorruit en voordeur. Niemand is beseer nie.

    “Ons was van 02:00 af besig om oproepe op te volg,” het Collin Africa, hoof van die plaaslike buurtwag, gesê.

    Example of the daily predation:

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/n-Lang-tronkstraf-na-gryse-aangeval-verkrag-is-20120509

    Lang tronkstraf ná aanval, verkragting
    2012-05-09 23:44

    Hanti Otto

    Die man wat ’n 77-jarige vrou met ’n skaapskêr aangehou en haar twee maal voor haar 83-jarige man, ’n semi-invalide, verkrag het, is gister in die streekhof in Pretoria tot lewenslange tronkstraf gevonnis.

    Sunday Masaile het die aand voor Kersfees in 2009 by die egpaar se huis in Villieria ingebreek.

    Die 83-jarige man, wat met behulp van ’n suurstofhouer asemgehaal het, het hom vasgeloop in Masaile, wat met ’n skaapskêr gewapen was.

    Die vrou het vertel die aanvaller het minstens R2 000 geëis.

    Sy het vir hom R4 000 uitgehaal.

    “Daarna het hy die skaapskêr teen my nek gedruk en my op die bed laat lê.”

    Sy is twee keer verkrag.

    Lebo Mokome, staatsaanklaer, het betoog Masaile het by dié huis ingebreek omdat die inwoners kwesbaar was.

    Landdros Lynn Pillay het tydens vonnisoplegging gesê die beskuldigde het teen ouer mense gediskrimineer.

    “Jy het ’n onregverdige voordeel bo die slagoffers gehad. Die wyse waarop jy die twee mense behandel het, was gruwelik.”

    Sy het verwys na ’n slagoffer­impakverslag waarvolgens die vrou, ’n oumagrootjie van vier, 57 jaar getroud was. Haar man is onlangs dood.

    Hul kinders glo dat dié voorval sy dood vervroeg het omdat sy gesondheid daarna drasties agteruitgegaan het.

    “Hy het homself geblameer omdat hy nie sy vrou kon help nie,” het die hof gehoor.

    Die vrou het haarself geïsoleer, sukkel om oor die voorval te praat en voel erg verneder.

    “Hierdie voorval het ’n vernietigende en lewensveranderende impak op die hele familie gehad,” het Pillay bevind.

    Aan Masaile het sy gesê die vrou het hom dubbel die bedrag gegee wat hy gevra het.

    “Maar jy het nie geloop nie. Jy het besluit om die vrou twee maal voor haar man te verkrag,” het Pillay gesê.

    Masaile is gevonnis tot 18 jaar tronkstraf op aanklag van huisbraak met die opset om te roof en roof met verswarende omstandighede. Hy is tot 14 jaar vir die eerste verkragting en lewenslank vir die tweede verkragting gevonnis.

    Die vonnisse sal saam uitgedien word.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 10, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Hey G,

    I guess that’s you way of saying that you are also “PROUDLY Afrikaans speaking!”

    p.s. How’s Gran?

  • Brett Nortje

    She’s not my granny. She is someones’ granny. A granny.

    Far as I’m concerned you treat a granny that way you’re an animal who should get a bullet in the head.

    I’m surprised at your attitude. Perhaps we were raised differently. My mom would be indignant if I did not stand up in the bus for your nani. Sne’s gogo. Dworky’s bobba.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 10, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Eish G,

    “My mom would be indignant if I did not stand up in the bus for your nani.”

    You lie!

    My “nani” was not allowed on the buses which you traveled in (except when the bus needed cleaning).

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    p.s. It’s true that the grannies of all coolies are called “nani”!

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Vuyo

    You sound like OB.

    Surely you can’t stop people organising themselves into different groups and meeting other groups.

    We can debate the intentions/interests of the various groups.

  • Gwebecimele

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/columnists/2012/05/10/full-speech-allan-boesak

    De Kock testified that as any good soldier, he followed the orders given by his superiors, who in turn followed the orders coming from the apartheid politicians. This, the fact that he was a soldier, specifically trained for what he did,[6] and his upbringing, were perhaps some of the reasons why Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela found it in her heart to forgive him. His remorse was another.

    But white South Africa could not live with a De Kock that reminded them that he dedicated his life to a cause they had persistently chosen, to protect the white supremacist, privileged life-style they cherished too much; that he tortured and killed because he believed that was expected of him in order to keep them “safe”. He was not just a soldier; he was an apartheid soldier. It became absolutely necessary, as a matter of life and death, to turn him into a person so evil, so much Satan personified, an evil so great that it not only cannot be forgiven, but cannot be imagined in any other person, let alone be recognised as an evil that represented the white community in their perverse lust for the maintenance of apartheid, white power and white privilege, and the benefits these brought them.

    But the sheer enormity of De Kock’s evil also made it impossible for him to be called merely insane, following the “mad, lone-wolf” theory so beloved of culpable communities refusing responsibility for someone from their own ranks who commit great crimes they associate only with an “enemy Other”. Madness on such a scale might be excusable and therefore certainly not permissible for De Kock. It had to be pure, unadulterated evil, making any complicity unthinkable, even though it was clear, as Jacques Pauw shows, that he was not a “lone wolf” or just a “bad apple” as F.W. De Klerk called him as he, before the TRC, blithely trivialised the deeds of apartheid’s killing machines by comparing them to mere “theft”.[7] Having built their wealth and privilege through the system of apartheid, that system being defended by men like De Kock, white society was now content to let De Kock vicariously bear the full weight of the guilt they should have felt. Pauw argues that

    Eugene De Kock became the incarnation and human face of evil, the inalienable combatant who rose in defence of an indefensible system. In that sense, he stood accused on behalf of every white man and woman who grew fat and prosperous under National Party rule – all four and a half million of us.[8]

  • Brett Nortje

    That’s right, Boesak & Co.

    Go on lying to yourselves the evil ‘other’ was rotten to ‘we’ to protect their ill gotten gains, out of inner vice, not because since ‘they’ had come into contact with ‘we’ their survival had been tenuous on many occasions, there was evidence mounting from every country to the north that people who said and believed exactly the same things as ‘we’ fucked up on a monumental scale…

    You’re almost where they are.

    And people like Pierre and the Afrikaner ‘elite’ like that clown in gang colours at the meeting keep side-stepping the real elephant-in-the-room issues in the time-honoured Afrikaner tradition of se niks dan is daar niks…That they learned at mamma’s knee.

  • Brett Nortje

    Regering ‘dien misdaadsindikate’ – Chikane
    2012-05-10 12:00

    Johannesburg – Suid-Afrika se demokrasie is in ‘n krisis gedompel as gevolg van leiers wat die land bestuur om misdaad-sindikate se belange te dien, het eerw. Frank Chikane gesê.

    “As jy artikels in die naweekkoerante oor [voormalige hoof van misdaadintelligensie lt.genl. Richard] Mdluli lees, kan ‘n mens sien dat ons in die moeilikheid is,” het Chikane luidens Sowetan gesê.

    Chikane is ‘n voormalige direkteurgeneraal in die presidensie en het ook die boek Eight Days in September – The Removal of Thabo Mbeki geskryf.

    Hy het by die bekendstelling van sy boek by die Universiteit van KwaZulu-Natal in Pietermaritzburg gesê sindikate word in staatsveiligheidsagentskappe aangestel. Hy sê sommige sindikate werk ook buite die stelsel, maar het sterk bande met politieke leiers.

    Volgens hom het korrupsie in die land sedert Nelson Mandela se presidensie toegeneem en onder die huidige leierskap vererger.

  • Gwebecimele

    Brett & OB

    Teach these youngsters some manners and about HUMAN RACE

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-10-heads-roll-as-racism-boils-over-on-facebook-and-twitter

  • Brett Nortje

    Agreed. Simple decency. Being nice. But mostly, manners.

  • khosi

    Very nice, Mr Pierre de Vos. Very nice.

    May I also commend you for the decorum in which you present your arguments when we talk the very sensitive issue of HIV and its relation to AIDS. I do not remember you qualifying any of your points using any reason.

    A new found level of respect to you.

  • Gwebecimele

    I must commend these mostly white men for marshalling what should go down in history as our best effort to seek accountability from our govt. Irrespective of the outcome of the case, the future of this country will definitely be different after their effort. This a perfect example of good organising and using private resources(reputation, money etc) for public good. Lesson to the black elite.

    http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page295043?oid=568724&sn=2009+Detail&pid=287226

  • ISHMAEL MALALE

    Hey a good debate. Let those groupings you suggest are being ignored ask for a meeting. I endorse your stance on tribal chauvinism but sugggest to part ways with you on being so worried about a meeting with your “very white” whites. The ANC engages with every south african no matter your wealth.

  • sirjay jonson

    Sine
    May 10, 2012 at 8:26 am

    You are obviously unaware of Zulu history. Back to school. Zulu’s slaughtered many times more than the evil apartheid system did. Is denial in the Zulu nation a given. You praise your warrior ethic. What did that include… spanking.

    However, I can balance their ferocity with the historical fact that there were and are so many cultures, tribes, nations who have, and still do, slaughter unnumbered people, so please don’t be offended. Its the way of human nature.

  • sirjay jonson

    @Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 9, 2012 at 21:35 pm
    Brett Nortje
    May 9, 2012 at 21:33 pm

    Eish G,

    “Saner individuals in the ANC know how Juliass damaged race relations in this country.”

    “Are you mad???”

    I have to agree with the first quote above. Sane individuals in SA very well understand the severe and possibly long lasting damage juju has done to race relations and this country. I posted years ago the man should be charged with treason.

    And no, I’m also not mad. At least I think so. And that’s all that matters.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    sirjay jonson
    May 10, 2012 at 18:28 pm

    Hey Sirjay,

    “And no, I’m also not mad.”

    I would certainly not consider comparing you with Brett – I have a lot of regard for him.

    Anyway – your comment May 10, 2012 at 18:22 pm. In summary, you talk absolute shit.

  • sirjay jonson

    @Prof: Can you imagine the courage and sincerity of Obama coming out and speaking from his heart to support same sex marriage, and just prior to an election.

    As an amateur political analysis, I rather wish and would suggest he might have been better advised to wait to make such a decision once his 2nd term was confirmed.

    What courage. Amazing. Is it just a dream that we could have such principled leaders in SAfrica. Deo volente.

  • sirjay jonson

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 10, 2012 at 18:35 pm

    Geez Maggs, sounds like you are having a hissy fit.

  • sirjay jonson

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 10, 2012 at 18:35 pm

    Please Maggs, are you also ignorant of Zulu atrocities… what a country. You are obviously a result of selective education.

  • Dmwangi

    I have the utmost respect and admiration for Tokyo, but this will be rife with abuse. Better to reform the current contracting system:

    ‘Parliament – The department of human settlements is considering establishing a state-owned construction company, Minister Tokyo Sexwale said on Wednesday.

    Sexwale said when houses were built in the government housing programme, the department relied “by and large” on inexperienced shovel, wheelbarrow and bakkie brigades.

    “Many of these discredit the good name of genuine and committed small to medium emerging contractors,” he said.

    “This does not take away the fact that some small companies have experience, but a lot of fly-by-nights take the taxpayer to the cleaners with their shoddy workmanship.

    “Is it perhaps not time to establish a state-owned construction company? We at human settlements are exploring this idea together with Public Works.”

    Sexwale said the department was a key player in the property market, with a recent study finding that 1.44 million of the six million registered residential properties in the Deeds Registry were government subsidised.

    This represented 24% of the total number of registered residential properties.

    Sexwale said this could increase to 35% if the backlog in issuing title deeds was overcome.

    The department, he said, would focus on low cost housing construction projects in its attempt to root out corruption and maladministration.

    More than 50 housing projects, valued at R4.2bn, had been identified as the targets of an investigation, Sexwale said.

    “The new focus in our current investigations is on low cost housing construction contracts.

    “In this regard, more than 50 housing projects with the value of R4.2bn were identified. Over 40 investigations have been completed and 17 are ongoing.”

    Sexwale said Limpopo had “taken the lead” in the fight against corruption by blacklisting 24 contractors for shoddy workmanship, non-delivery and incompetence, and recovering more than a million rands from these companies.

    More than 290 public servants who had committed housing subsidy-related misconduct and fraud had been arrested.

    Nearly R30m lost through corrupt activities had been recovered, Sexwale said.’

  • sirjay jonson

    @Maggs: Think of this for a moment, I suggest taking a deep breath first and centering. My ancestors and your ancestors slaughtered people, cheated, lied, misled, oppressed and as often as not fought and decimated even innocent folk. Think not? Then how is it we survived. Because that is unfortunately the history of the world.

    Obviously we are in our individual lives an evolutionary result of the winners/conquerors etc . Do I feel shame, not at all. Do I talk shit as you suggest, nah, don’t think so. I am who I am, regardless of my ancestors, their good will or evil. The question begs: have you come to terms with this in your own life?

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, you long-eared equine: Google Mfecane/Difaqane!

  • sirjay jonson

    Thanks Brett: as for comparison to you, I don’t mind at all. Its rather a compliment.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 10, 2012 at 19:32 pm

    Hey Dm,

    It sure sounds like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    National Treasury has taken some initiative through it’s intern programme.

    Maybe other departments should follow suit – it will certainly help in getting capacity to remedy the current shortcomings.

    And then we have the Ministry of Higher Education ….. :(

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 10, 2012 at 19:49 pm

    Come on G,

    It’s unlike you to support the notion that every African sounding name = Zulu!

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    ISHMAEL MALALE
    May 10, 2012 at 17:14 pm

    Hey Ishmael,

    “The ANC engages with every south african no matter your wealth.”

    Long time no see.

    It must be pretty awful for all the genuine activists and loyal, disciplined and dedicated cadres with all that is going on.

    Knowing (or not knowing) that you’re being spied on, bugged, shadowed, reported on …

    What’s happened to the ANC’s own corps of highly skilled and trained cadres from the ranks that the ANC led government sees fit to have an apartheid era cop immersed in highly questionable circumstances to lead of all things CRIME INTELLIGENCE?

  • Pingback: Die NG Kerk praat saam Afrikaner organisasies? « die ander kant

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “This kind of identity politics is by its very nature conservative and intolerant of difference (differences within the group as well as differences between the group and those who do not belong to it).”

    I guess it must be Prof Chameleon preaching again. “Good” identity politics as in Black versus White not a problem but the smaller tribal entities Zulu, Afrikaner are too narrow and conservative.

    Some confused arsehole posted a couple of weeks ago how he couldn’t understand how South Africans could take exception to racial classifications.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Vuyo
    May 9, 2012 at 17:35 pm

    Agreed with that.

    But don’t you think that affirmative action by itself is just such an instrument of capitalism. Much like the mine bosses of 1922 managed to destroy worker solidarity exploiting race based wage discrimination.

    “All such differentiation serves only to strengthen capitalists by reducing the potential of unity between the workers. They create a false distinction between workers based solely on arbitrary considerations such as language, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “Maybe it says something about the *rightward turn inside the ANC under Jacob Zuma* that the ANC has deemed it important enough to meet with this tribal group and is, in effect, endorsing this kind of tribalism.”

    That must be exactly why Nelson Mandela become an international icon when he wore a Springbok jersey in 1996 and handed over the Rugby World Cup to that Afrikaner boy Francois Pienaar.

    Or perhaps, much more likely, Zuma also recognises strength in diversity and is simply continuing to build on the ANC’s vision of a united South African nation.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “Although I am proudly Afrikaans speaking, I am decidedly not an “Afrikaner”. In my eyes an “Afrikaner” is a highly political concept and a problematic one at that; it is an exclusionary identity as it refers to a group of white Afrikaans speaking people who more or less share a political orientation, cultural habits and assumptions, religious beliefs and a persecution complex”

    And the answer is to deny and betray your own identity instead of redefining what it really means?

    Isn’t that just a little bit lazy and spineless, Pierre De Vos?

    “He said, as a result of their history, Afrikaners occupied a unique position in South African society. “You have in your history the experience of being victims of oppression – at times a brutal and inhumane oppression. You also know the history of being the master – often inflicting heavy suffering on those being ruled.” These experiences put Afrikaners in a position to make an invaluable contribution – materially, intellectually and spiritually – to the building of the new South Africa.”

    http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1997/9706/s970611f.htm

    Now compare to what Jacob Zuma said in 2009.

    “Jacob Zuma: Afrikaners the only white African tribe”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Bnp72Tft8

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    What does the Freedom Charter say about tribalism:

    “All National Groups Shall have Equal Rights!

    There shall be equal status in the bodies of state, in the courts and in the schools for all national groups and races;

    All people shall have equal right to use their own languages, and to develop their own folk culture and customs;

    All national groups shall be protected by law against insults to their race and national pride;

    The preaching and practice of national, race or colour discrimination and contempt shall be a punishable crime;

    All apartheid laws and practices shall be set aside.”

    It certainly rejects the notion that in a democratic South-Africa we shall all morph into Anglophile, self-loathing, identityless metrosexuals whose only defining attributes are which nonracial nightclubs we visit and where we shop.

    http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    May 10, 2012 at 22:32 pm

    As jy wil tegnies raak….wat van die ‘gay’ identiteit?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Eish – WHITE PEOPLE!

    (Brett stop harassing our future National Police Commissioner)

    Claiming that allegations against him were a “racist”-driven plot, Mdluli said white policemen were brought from the Western Cape to investigate him, but declined to go into further detail. All the journalists who were writing “bad things” about him were white, he said.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-10-its-all-a-racist-driven-plot

    Mbulula is bugged!

    So our Sports Minister is a crook.

    This week Sports Minister Fikile Mbalula claimed his phone was being bugged. Mdluli said people who claimed such a thing might be under investigation.

    “They are making a lot of hullaballoo based on nothing. If we bug people, there might be something to bug them about. But our legal people look at all these things and the judge approves. “

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    May 11, 2012 at 7:39 am

    “As jy wil tegnies raak….wat van die ‘gay’ identiteit?”

    What would Hendrik Biebouw say about his “Coloured” identity.

    “Ik wil niet loopen, ’k ben een [gay/coloured/atheist/working class] Africaander al slaat die landrost mijn dood, of al setten hij mij in den tronk. Ik sal, nog wil niet swijgen.”

    http://www.boervolk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2468

    I think Hendrick would say VOK DIT – I don’t care what die FAK the NG kerk says, I remain an Africaander no matter what.

  • Sine

    sirjay jonson says:
    May 10, 2012 at 18:22 pm

    Wow. Look who’s talking. Unbelievable! Next up, he will start “educating” me about my own customs.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Sine
    May 11, 2012 at 8:11 am

    LOL Sne!

    Killed any White people this morning?

  • Herman Lategan

    Hear, hear. I agree with you on this Pierre.

  • Sine

    @Maggs

    LOL. Some people just dont know where to draw the line really.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Herman Lategan
    May 11, 2012 at 8:51 am

    Then you should jump on the jannie-jammer-gat sell-out bandwagon with PdV/&kie and drive it over Dr. Van Zyl Slabbert’s grave.

    http://books.google.co.za/books/about/Tough_choices.html?id=79svAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

  • Gwebecimele

    OB

    If you are English, then RW say your son and mine won’t make it in cricket.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=297783&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    No fault with constitution and its court: Chaskalson

    A government review of the Constitutional Court should find that no provision of the Constitution has been an obstacle to transformation, former chief justice Arthur Chaskalson said on Thursday evening.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/05/11/no-fault-with-constitution-and-its-court-chaskalson

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    May 11, 2012 at 9:52 am

    “Not many years later, when Verwoerd was in power one of his Ministers mentioned to him that things had reached a very tense stage in a South Africa v. England Test Match. “Yes, but who’s doing best”, he replied, “our English or their English?” The point of both stories being that at that time cricket was very much the game of white English-speakers: for apartheid reasons men like d’Oliveira were excluded and Afrikaners were a rarity in the game.”

    “Of course it would be marvellous if we had lots of good African cricketers coming through too but my guess is that it will take time, just as it did for white Afrikaners.”

    I guess that just goes to show how back in in 1948 Afrikaners just walked into the SA national cricket team because they were Afrikaan?

    Just like the helped themselves to the state coffers and tenders based on in a orgy of corruption and self-affirming greed.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Once again the truth sparks outrage. One thing you should never mention in polite and politically correct conversation is the “good intentions” of Apartheid.

    “Asked by Amanpour whether he agreed that apartheid was morally repugnant, he said: “In as much as it trampled human rights it was and remains morally indefensible.”

    However, De Klerk then appeared to defend the homeland system: “But the concept of giving, as the Czechs have it now, and the Slovaks have it, of saying that ethnic unity with one culture with one language [everyone] can be happy and can fulfil their democratic aspirations in an own state, that is not repugnant.””

    “Asked about Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu’s proposal for whites to pay a special wealth tax, De Klerk said white South Africans paid tax comparable to what very rich people pay in other countries.

    He said people did not mind paying tax, but complained when public money was misspent.”

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/05/11/fw-de-klerk-sparks-outrage

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    “There is no place for [the Bantu] in the European community above the level of certain forms of labour … What is the use of teaching the Bantu child mathematics when it cannot use it in practice? That is quite absurd. Education must train people in accordance with their opportunities in life, according to the sphere in which they live.”
    Dr Hendrik Verwoerd, South African minister for native affairs (prime minister from 1958 to 66), speaking about his government’s education policies in the 1950s. As quoted in Apartheid – A History by Brian Lapping, 1987.

    Good intentions my ass!

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    “We should not give the Natives any academic education. If we do, who is going to do the manual labour in the community?”
    JN le Roux, National Party politician, 1945.

    Good intentions for who?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Jama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Hey JkS,

    Soon someone is going to try and convince us that the iniquitous apartheid state left wonderful “infrastructure”.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    ama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 10:47 am

    “We should not give the Natives any academic education.”

    But you do note that De Klerk was referring to the homeland system and the noble concepts of “separate development” and “self-determination”. Under that doctrine of self-determination “the Natives” didn’t need anybody “to give” them anything, never mind education. Mdwangi, mfd and even UCT’s Dr. Max Price would agree on just how debilitating and unfair European education was to “the Native”.

    “The South African school system favours children who have been brought up with an intimate familiarity with Western culture, inculcated early through books, stories, theatre, film, family activities, museums, international travel and much more. This is not to value Western culture above others. It simply recognises the reality that in South Africa, and throughout much of the world, this culture dominates education systems and places at a disadvantage students with different cultural capital often linked to class, language, ethnicity and geography.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-01-13-past-sins-revisited-and-corrected/

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    You could argue Verwoerd’s was a visionary, a deeply thoughtful but confused race crit who didn’t want to impose White Supremacism through forced education on Black people, but rather wanted them to develop all on their own.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    Or you could agrue that Verwoerd was a just a racist Afrikaaner who tried to disguise the white supremacy of his party & “tribesmen” from international condemnation with some half baked theory of separate but equal development.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Yes you could. But the truth is relative as you know from PdV. That is why anybody who has ever visited Orania will tell you, it is/was all always about CHEAP LABOR to feed into and the capitalist colonial system and the White Supremacist theory falls apart at the seams in the absence of it.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    Hey Maggs

    It would appear to me that there is an agenda afoot to absolve the Nats & their former supporters of any wrong doing, to present apartheid as “not that bad” since it was driven by noble motives; to convince us that democracy & ANC rule is somehow much worse that apartheid ever was.

    A perfect example of this is that (madarchod) apartheid apologist who commented earlier that the “Zulu’s slaughtered many times more than the evil apartheid system did”. What a load of bullshit!
    But I suppose it is easy to talk like that if one has never been on the recieving end of institutionalised subjugation, dispossession, influx control, pass laws, dop system, forced removals, detention without trial, death squads, etc etc

    The real shame about this is that we will never get to true reconciliation in this country, because certain “tribes” are allergic to the truth & prefer instead to hide in a make believe bubble of lies behind their boom gates & high walls, in their exclusive golf estates & Oranias.

    @ OB – go sell your revisionist history of your filthy Verwoerd somewhere else. Perhaps you are not aware, being a ‘johhny-come-lately type of socialist, but ask any black person anywhere in the world & they will tell you that the “capitalist colonial system” and white supremacy go hand in glove. The white man’s “wealth” was built on forced / cheap / slave labour of dark-skinned people.
    The point of the homelands was to keep black people at arms lengths in conveniently placed labour reserves whilst the whites had 80% of the country to themselves. These was nothing noble about it. It was based on iniquity & greed & even FW de Klerk knows that.

  • Sine

    @Jama

    Nto ka S’jadu, I could not have said it better.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    “@ OB – go sell your revisionist history of your filthy Verwoerd somewhere else. Perhaps you are not aware, being a ‘johhny-come-lately type of socialist, but ask any black person anywhere in the world & they will tell you that the “capitalist colonial system” and white supremacy go hand in glove. The white man’s “wealth” was built on forced / cheap / slave labour of dark-skinned people.”

    I would fall for that manipulative revisionist bullshit if it wasn’t for most of the 20th century history wasn’t dominated by the Cold War and those “White Supremacists” Russians and Cubans who fought against Apartheid above just as hard as any African liberation movement.

    And modern day capitalist China – who are the “White Supremacists” in there? Or the gross exploitation of white workers in 18 century England. Or even modern day Angola and Nigeria?

    Come Jama – give us a theoretical perspective on history that makes just a little bit of nonracial sense.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    hey jama. Who is doing this nasty White Supremacist job on the Nigerian people?

    “Nigeria’s ranking was part of the 2010 Human Development Report released by the United Nations Development Programme in Abuja on Monday. The HDI is a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standards of living for countries worldwide.”

    http://www.nigeriannewsservice.com/nns-news-archive/news-blocks/nigeria-ranks-142nd-on-human-development-index

    Come Jama – I’m very allergic to the truth and I want to revise my controversial views on White Supremacism being the begging and the end of all of history.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    South Africa Pays Tribute to [White Supremacist] Russia’s Anti-apartheid Role

    http://www.netnewspublisher.com/south-africa-pays-tribute-to-russias-anti-apartheid-role/

    Hey Jama. What are these socialists “Johnny-come-latelys” all about?

    ““Our relationship with Russia and the veterans is very emotional. South Africa owes a great deal to the people of Russia for their freedom and I am happy that today we are working together to take that relationship to a higher level,” Sisulu said. The minister added that she had been among those who had spent a lot of time in Russia and thanked the veterans for welcoming South Africans as part of their families during the apartheid struggle.”

  • Hoof_Hearted

    Jama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 12:12 pm
    “Zulu’s slaughtered many times more than the evil apartheid system did”. What a load of bullshit!

    Sine
    May 11, 2012 at 13:06 pm
    @Jama
    Nto ka S’jadu, I could not have said it better.

    Gasp!?!?
    Does this mean that the original statue by Andries Botha at King Shaka International can be re-erected because as it turns out complaintscomments by the Zulu royal family that it resembled a “herd boy” were in fact historically correct?

  • Sine

    Hoof_Hearted says:
    May 11, 2012 at 14:45 pm

    Ufuna ukuthini na? Inantoni yokwenza nalento ithethwayo lonto? Khawuphuhle mfondini.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Soon someone is going to try and convince us that the iniquitous apartheid state left wonderful “infrastructure”.’

    Yes, where is Brett?

    ‘Mdwangi, mfd and even UCT’s Dr. Max Price would agree on just how debilitating and unfair European education was to “the Native”.’

    If the first proper noun in that sentence refers to me, I’d rather not have my views misassociated with MDF and Price. I’m not even sure exactly what ‘European’ education means? Pedagogy? Exposure to European ideas? The European tradition certainly has no monopoly on truth, however, that doesn’t mean it has not discerned any truths. It should be part of any curriculum but should not comprise the entirety thereof.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    @ OB you seem a bit lost & all over the place trying to defend the indefensible.

    May I suggest some reading?

    1) White Supremacy & Black Resistance in Pre-Industrial South Africa – Clifton C. Crais.

    2) The Cost of Privilege: (Taking on the System of White Supremacy & Racism) – Chip Smith.

    Two different countries & historical contexts, yet the same pattern of racism & brutality, motivated by greed.

    History is not “non racial” Ozoneblue, catch a wake-up!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 15:28 pm

    I refuse to read any simplistic bullshit reduction of history to suit some postmodern Critical Race theory paradigm. Imported from the capitalist USA for easy consumption by the retarded, the manipulative and the devious. The Black hypocrites and the liars who moan and bitch about Whites who live behind fences in their luxurious mansions on gholf estates while they do more of the same. While the vast majority of their Black brothers are still going without food and clean water, basic health services, education an so on.

    Did they ask de Klerk on CNN where the might capitalist USA stood in the Cold War on Apartheid. Or why De Klerk abolished Apartheid just coincidentally with the collapse of the USSR? Or why Patrice Motsepe and is so cosy snug-snug with White Supremacist Anglo-American.

    No I guess they didn’t.

  • Vuyo

    @Jama ka Sijadu says: May 11, 2012 at 12:12 pm
    I agree. Apartheid, like colonialism and imperialism, is the product of the logic of capitalism. None of its beneficiaries (at least most of them) will acknowledge this or its adverse consequences (crime, poverty, skewed infrastructure or lack thereof, illness, illiteracy, etc). This is because the moral foundation of capitalism is egoism. It distorts the conscience of people to the point where they are neutered from the evil consequences of their actions. It is therefore unsurprising that those beneficiaries of apartheid would rather acknowledge being necrophiles, goblins, and consumers of bestial porn than admit that their ill gotten wealth and other advantages were, well, ILL-GOTTEN (to do so would result in the moral imperative for compensation, since even beneficiaries of amoral capital and its designs are human). Similarly they will use their instruments of propaganda (the education system, including academia, the press, entertainment, etc) to propagate gradually the lie that apartheid was not as bad as the victims suggest, and the logic of capitalism means that the lie will transform to truth as soon as enough money has been expended on propagating the lie. What we must do is not to entertain these putrid debates about the “goodness” of apartheid but to procure measures to eradicate the legacy of apartheid, including 100% tax of inheritance, wealth tax, abolish all private ownership of the means of production, expropriation of land without compensation, etcetera, etcetera. All other things are mere children’s games.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Vuyo
    May 11, 2012 at 15:53 pm

    “What we must do is not to entertain these putrid debates about the “goodness” of apartheid but to procure measures to eradicate the legacy of apartheid, including 100% tax of inheritance, wealth tax, abolish all private ownership of the means of production, expropriation of land without compensation, etcetera, etcetera. All other things are mere children’s games.”

    If that is not a smokescreen for the narrow enrichment of a few Blacks at the expense of the a majority I’m all for that. Given that it is not conducted according to racist agenda. From Harry Opppenheimer to Anton Rupert to Tokoyo Sexwale – they are all the same.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    ozoneblue says:
    May 11, 2012 at 15:47 pm

    “I refuse to read…”

    That right there is the problem.
    You refuse to read anything that challenges your “false sense of racial superiority” as the Professor puts it.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jama ka Sijadu
    May 11, 2012 at 16:14 pm

    Nice form. Lodge the good old ad hominen attack whenever you can’t argue a point rationally. If you think I’m going to fall for that cheap stunt you better think again.

    So – come again: who are the White Supremacists controlling the considerable wealth of Nigeria, or Angola or The Democratic republic of the Congo? Oh I know – it must those evil racist Afrikaners still worshipping the ghost of Verwoerd.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    OzoneBlue, I respectfully implore you to stop bring up class, socialism, the role of the USSR, and so-called corruption. Also, stop confusing everyone with bizarre references to Dr Verwoerd.

    I suspect that all of this nonsense is an effort to obscure the fact that your WHITISH TENDENCY is, in a very real sense, a form of ORIGINAL SIN. Absolution will come only from self-flagellation, and a willingness to renounce the RACIST conspiracy against Lt. General Mdludli!

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Hey Jama. Afrikaners must continue to feel guilty because of Apartheid but when the ANC got the opportunity to do something about the legacy of Apartheid they chose to buy 40 billion worth of useless military hardware from the British with plenty of kick-backs involved. Pissing out at every opportunity my hard earned tax money that should be spend of health care and education on bullshit and gluttonous self-indulgence like that. It is absurd. Forget it boet, I stopped feeling guilty about Apartheid a long time ago.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    ozoneblue says:
    May 11, 2012 at 16:39 pm

    I couldn’t give a shit what you lot feel guilty about.
    Its your claiming some fake moral high ground that gets on my nerves.

    When you argue that Verwoerd was a visionary, noble man, it quickly becomes obvious that your grasp on reality is tenuous at best & any sense of morality / natural justice or whatever is completely absent from your world view.

    The failings of the ANC do not make you & your apartheid ghosts somehow superior or ‘not as bad.’

  • Ferdi

    Written in English…

  • Brett Nortje

    Jama ka Sijadu says:
    May 11, 2012 at 17:30 pm

    I feel the urge again for Apartheid facts from Pandora’s box. And statistics and bodycounts and about bodycounts.

    But lets first make sure that you remember the difference between a fact and an opinion.

    I am not forgetting that you were the one person to do a bit of basic research about compensation for land subject to forced removals during Apartheid.

    De Vos certainly did not.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!
  • Jama ka Sijadu

    Hey Brett

    Pardon the delayed response: even lazy, incompetent, God-less blacks like me have to work!
    Whilst I find the condescending tone of your ( & others like yours) post extremely demoralising, I will try & humour you..

    On the topic of damn lies & statistics:
    1.) do you have any figures on the body count from the Mfecane “holocaust?”

    Brett Nortje says:
    May 10, 2012 at 19:49 pm
    Maggs, you long-eared equine: Google Mfecane/Difaqane!

    2.) In your opinion, is it a fact that South Africa today is worse off under the ANC than it was under the National Party?

    3.) Given that you appear to believe the architects of apartheid acted as best they could given the circumstances around them at the time, why do you find it difficult to be as generous in ascribing motives to the ANC?

  • Brett Nortje

    Jama, obviously it is impossible to give you a body count as an objective fact since no-one around then could keep accurate statistics.

    Is South Africa worse of today? Is it? 500 000 Homicides, 6-million people with AIDS, successive successful World Cups, ADSL, satelite TV, depends on who you ask and how they’re feeling.

    NP leaders were mostly plain middleclass people who did not pursue public office as a gateway to riches. To how many ANC leaders does that still apply?

    I am glad you are experiencing first-hand how emotionally destructive this constant mindless wargaming is.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 14, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “NP leaders were mostly plain middleclass people who did not pursue public office as a gateway to riches.”

    Hmmm!

    What were the Broederbond?

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!
  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    When Zuma arrived in his motorcade on Friday morning to officially open the ANC’s KwaZulu-Natal provincial conference in Newcastle, animated delegates launched into his praise songs, among them the chilling, “Washis’iskipa sikaZuma sakufak’ amavolovolo”, which, loosely translated, means “You burn a Zuma T-shirt, we’ll shoot you”.

    By failing to reprimand these members, Zuma’s actions have given credence to an observation that the succession debate in the ANC is only open for those who are advocating for his re-election, but closed for those who want leadership change at the party’s elective conference in Mangaung, Free State.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-14-zuma-comes-and-goes-but-the-song-remains-the-same

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go! says:
    May 14, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    Good point and a timely reminder that there were not many clean hands about.

    At the risk of sounding like OBS the economic elite did a great job of convincing white South Africa their mutual survival was inextricably linked. That does not negate the truth in that little gem – an important motivating factor for change as people started to realise they black South Africans belonged in that menageatrio. Go read De Klerk again. Think he missed it?
    Go google ‘Erika Theron unions’.

  • Brett Nortje

    One thing the Afrikaner elite certainly did misread is that most of the ANC might be so pissed at not being invited to eat the money along with Cyril and Tokyo they would ruin the mining sector and drive Cyril and Tokyo’s shares underwater.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Persius

    Pierre de Vos (hoekom gebruik hy die primitiewe woord “tribalism?”) verwys myns insiens glad nie na gematigde of gebalanseerde etniese identiteit nie, maar na die oordrewe of ekstreme vorm daarvan. Hy identifiseer seker elke negatiewe gevolg daarvan – vanaf chauvinisme en “superiority” tot oppressiveness en selfs, sowaar, on-menswaardigheid.

    Maar om alle “tribalists” en “Afrikaners” by te kom, skep hy hierdie strooiman (‘n geharde en ekstreme Afrikaner) en vernietig hom dan met groot fanfare. In sy boekies bestaan daar blykbaar nie iemand soos ‘n gematigde en gebalanseerde Afrikaner, Skot, Zulu of Fransman nie.

    Ek dink de Vos toon, ook in van sy ander blogs, ‘n diep onverdraagsaamheid tot enige iemand wat durf ruimte vra, ongeag hoe min ook al, vir sy Afrikaner-idenditeit. Myns insiens gee hy homself weg deur, onder vele andere, die “Afrikaners se kerk” te verkleineer deur lustig te verkondiging “I would laugh out loud if I were ever to be confronted by the bizarre exhortations of the local NG Kerk dominee”.

    Wat ek wel met hom saamstem, is dat tribalists die politiek beduiwel. ‘n Etniese minderheid is maar net ‘n bleddie neusance in ‘n eenheid-staat soos SA. Hoe gouer ons kan ontlae raak van hulle, hoe beter. Hoe gouer ons almal begin swak Engels as eerste taal praat en saam kumbaja sing in plaas daarvan dat sommige ook na Steve Hofmeyer luister, hoe beter.

    Ek wonder of Professor De Vos al ooit ons land se grondwet gelees het?

  • Okapi Man

    The fact is this everyone. I love people of all colors and I am not a racist. I believe in God. But African TRIBALISM and Islam destroyed and destroys Africa and its people. The European white settlers made South Africa good. Apartheid itself was wrong, I agree. But, the Whites brought industrial technology, jobs, good economics, and most importantly of all, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to Africa. African Christians who love Jesus and worship Jesus and consistently follow Jesus, are great people. African tribalists who hold to the dirty filthy evil demonic tribalism and shamanism are deceived. Muslims have ruined Africa, too. Muslims enslave Africans and murder, rape, and force people to convert to Islam.

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  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!
    May 14, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    http://newhistory.co.za/part-3-chapter-12-afrikaner-economic-mobilisation/

    Correct – I hope you have noted the fact that there is a less sanitized, politically correct and one-dimensional reading of modern Afrikaner history.

    “The alliance’s first step was to hold an economic congress, called the Eerste Ekonomiese Volkskongres (First Economic Congress of the People). It met in October 1939 in Bloemfontein and was attended by politicians, businessmen and academics. The poor white problem received little attention. Church ministers and populist politicians were conspicuous by their absence. The list of speakers read like a ‘Who’s Who’ of future Afrikaner entrepreneurs.

    Considerable effort was made to break down the prevailing opposition among Afrikaners to a form of capitalism in which individuals were enriched without the community benefiting. In his opening address L.J du Plessis defined the goal as mobilising ‘the volk to conquer the capitalist system and to transform it so that it fits our ethnic nature’. This adapted capitalist philosophy was later called volkskapitalisme, or capitalism of the people. It meant that free enterprise was not intended primarily to create wealth for individuals for their own sake, or for a handful of individuals. It had to help the Afrikaners escape from their economic thrall and gain for the people their legitimate share of the economy.”

    And guess who have major shares in those evil Afrikaner establishments Absa, Sanlam, Sasol and Yskor now?

    http://www.sanlam.co.za/wps/wcm/connect/sanlam_en/Sanlam/About+Sanlam/Who+We+Are/Directors/Sanlam+Limited/

    None other than the likes of Patrice Motsepe. yet again empowered and affirmed. So surely it can be said that Black people are also benefiting from Apartheid !

    Patrice Motsepe

  • Henri le Riche

    Tribalism. This kind of identity politics is by its very nature conservative and
    intolerant of difference (differences within the group as well as
    differences between the group and those who do not belong to it).

    Sorry Pierre. Dis sommer nonsens. Dis jou beperkte siening.

    I see tribalism can also be an open minded thing where you can embrace others. That’s the community I came from. It seems you came from the opposite side and do what people do with limited experiences. They think only their way or perception is the only explanation.

    Hier weet ek jy sit die pot sommer baie ver mis. By n very longggg drop ver.