Constitutional Hill

A rethink on race?

In the 1980s the Weekly Mail (which later became the Mail & Guardian) every week published a column called “Apartheid Barometer” which catalogued the most absurd and insulting official excesses of the apartheid government. (The unofficial excesses – such as the killing and torturing of apartheid opponents – could, of course, not easily be documented, given the secrecy around these ostensibly illegal acts and given the censorship enforced by the apartheid state.)

This column provided information about which documents and books had been found to be “undesirable” by the rather sinister Censor Board in the previous week. ANC pamphlets, items which contained displays of dagga leaves, books and movies which contained soft and hardcore pornography and items “calculated to stimulate lust” like dildo’s and vibrators all made their appearance on the list.

The most obscene section of the Apartheid Barometer contained information about the racial reclassification of citizens. Every week we read that so many “africans” had been reclassified as “coloured”; so many “coloureds” had been reclassified as “indians”; so many “whites” had been reclassified as “coloureds”. (These terms were amended from time to time: at first “africans” were classified as “bantus”.) Of course, the list hardly ever contained any mention of any “whites” being reclassified as “coloureds”, “indians” or “africans” because “whites” were privileged and no “white” person in his or her right mind would have wanted to stop being a “white” person.

Population_registration_certificate_South_Africa_1988This was all done in terms of the Population Registration Act 30 of 1950. The Act required every South African to be classified in terms of race and these apartheid race categories included “african”, “white”, “coloured”, “other coloured” or “indian”.

The Act was amended often to try and make it more difficult to reclassify anyone as “white”, but the definitions used at one time included the following:

White person is one who is in appearance obviously white — and not generally accepted as Coloured – or who is generally accepted as White – and is not obviously Non-White, provided that a person shall not be classified as a White person if one of his natural parents has been classified as a Coloured person or a Bantu…”

“A Bantu is a person who is, or is generally accepted as, a member of any aboriginal race or tribe of Africa…”

“A Coloured is a person who is not a White person or a Bantu…”

Although this Act was finally abolished in 1991, the effects of this legally enforced racial system has not disappeared. How could it? After 300 years of racial social engineering, which was aimed at privileging “whites” vis-a-vis “other race groups” and of securing white privilege and social and economic domination, abolishing the legislation on which this racial hierarchy was built would not happen overnight. To some extent we all still suffer from this apartheid racial hangover.

Even if we wish to deny it, race hovers not far from the surface in private or other everyday settings: as an unspoken presence, a (wrongly) perceived absence or as a painful, confusing, liberating or oppressive reality in social, economic or other – more intimate – interactions between individuals or between groups of individuals. In South Africa we (still) cannot escape race.

It will take a concerted legislative, educational and societal effort to dismantle this system of racial hierarchy and race-thinking. That is why the Constitution mandates affirmative action and why legislation like the Employment Equity Act and the Black Economic Empowerment Act was adopted by the ANC government.

Without these legislative measures it would have taken hundreds of years to begin to address the effects of past racial discrimination. Even today, most “white” South Africans are absurdly privileged vis-a-vis most “black” South Africans. However, there is a price to pay for these legislatively mandated corrective programmes and we have to admit that there is a huge irony and a seemingly unsolvable paradox at the heart of this effort to dismantle the effects of apartheid race thinking, which have again been highlighted by the Jimmy Manyi scandal.

While South Africa has emerged from a period in its history in which the race of every individual played a decisive role in determining their life chances, allocating social status and economic benefits on the basis of race in terms of a rigid hierarchical system according to which every person was classified by the apartheid state as either “white”, “indian”, “coloured” or “black” and allocated a social status and economic and political benefits in accordance with this race, in the post apartheid era the potency of race as a factor in the allocation of social status and economic benefit has not fundamentally been diminished in our daily lives — despite a professed commitment to non-racialism contained in the South African Constitution, the founding document of our democracy.

The problem is that when the law deploys race to address the effects of past unfair discrimination and the ongoing dominance of an ideology of white supremacy, how can this be done without merely perpetuating the very apartheid race categories and the positions of privilege and hierarchical dominance of whiteness implied by it?

The problem is complex. On the one hand, the danger is that the deployment of racial categories in the law can have the effect of perpetuating and legitimising racial categories (and the assumed dominance of whiteness inherent in the deployment of such categories). By recognising these categories and by dealing with them as if they are a given — normal, essentialist, unchanging and unchangeable — and by failing to challenge the hierarchical assumptions underlying the deployment of these categories, the law can do immense harm — even in the name of wanting to do good.

Instead of helping us to move away from a hierarchically racialised society in which racial categories continue to exhort a powerful pull on the way in which we perceive and understand the world and how we perceive and understand ourselves and our relationships with those around us, the deployment of apartheid racial categories in law can contribute to the perpetuation of the very race-based hierarchy that is the cause of the “problem of race” in our society.

On the other hand, if racial categories are not deployed in legal discourse and in the legal provisions aimed at addressing the effects of past racial discrimination and the continued dominance of an ideology of white dominance, the law may well fail to address the effects of past racial discrimination and the ongoing problem of racism and racial oppression.

If the law insists that race is (or should be) absolutely irrelevant and superfluous, and that racial categories should therefore not be relied upon by the law (even when the law is aimed addressing the effects of past and ongoing racial discrimination and racism to achieve a society that truly moves beyond race — a society that treats individuals as individual human beings of equal moral worth regardless of any constructed differences), how can the powerful effects of past and ongoing racial discrimination and racism be addressed?

Would it not be true that if we insisted that race was irrelevant and superfluous, we would be endorsing and perpetuating the fiction that the characteristics, cultural beliefs and (often unexamined and silent) norms of the dominant white group are universal and neutral? Would such a “race-blindness” in the law not impose white dominance by erasing awareness of racial identity or cultural distinctiveness, given the fact that many South Africans still experience whiteness and white cultural practices as normative, natural, and universal, and therefore invisible?

Would this not negate any understanding of racial domination in terms of cultural or symbolic practices? And if one insisted on this fiction that race as a lived reality did not exist in South Africa or that it did not matter, would one not be denying the powerful effects of a pervasive racial ideology that continues to oppress and marginalised “black” South Africans? Would such a stance not require one to ignore the lived reality of a majority of South Africans who experience race as real and as oppressive?

We have to try and move away from the crude apartheid era race categories (as my colleague Zimitri Erasmus refers to them) while recognising that the effects of past racial discrimination and the effects of ongoing racism has to be addressed urgently. People like Jimmy Manyi, Kuli Roberts and Steve Hofmeyer seem quite comfortable with using these categories and they often use them as if these categories say something essential and true about the individuals who are categorised in terms of them: “coloureds” don’t have front teeth; “whites” are all racist murderers; “indians” are all devious; “africans” are all lazy farm murderers – you all know these stereotypes.

For me the starting point should be to recognise that these categories are the product of a specific history and that they cannot be used to predict how individuals who are said to slot into these categories will behave, what their attitudes will be, and who they are as individuals. When we use these categories for purposes of redress we should do so ironically and in a contingent manner. (That is why I place inverted commas around the terms when I use them: I wish to signal that I believe these terms are no more than crude and obnoxious descriptors which can never capture the full essence of each individual person supposedly described by them.)

Second, a more nuanced deployment of such categories in our law is required. Apart from these categories (which for the moment we have no choice but to rely on to help effect redress) we may want to add other factors when we decide whether an individual should be the beneficiary of a specific programme of corrective measures. The social and economic status of the individual and his or her parents; whether an individual is part of a first generation who has obtained secondary or tertiary education; whether an individual grew up in a rural area or in the city; whether the individual is monolingual or speaks several South African languages — these factors could all be used by our redress legislation along with race to counter the corrosive effects that the use of apartheid race categories might have on our entrenched racial assumptions and on the perpetuation of the racial hierarchy which is so well known from the apartheid days.

Maybe there are other ways to deal with these issues. Who knows? What I do know is that we need to continue having a conversation about what will work best. When I talk about a conversation I do not mean a shouting match in which individuals retreat into the laager of their own apartheid era racial identities and shout abuse at others who they perceive to belong to a different apartheid race category. In having this conversation it would be helpful if we could agree that it is important to take race and the need for racially-based redress seriously while also acknowledging that in doing so there is a danger that the use of apartheid era race categories will imprison us all in an apartheid of the mind — something that Steve Biko warned us against.

What is needed — to use the dreadful cliche — is “out of the box” thinking. In other words, we need to try not to follow the example of Jimmy Manyi, Kuli Roberts or Steve Hofmeyer. This we can only do if we have a real and open discussion about what race did to all of us in the past (and continues to do to us today) and how we can address the effects of race in the future; if we do not take part in the discussion as perpetual victims (of racism or of so called reverse-racism), but as equal, respectful human beings who believe and act like people who have the pride in themselves and the power to chart a new destiny that is fair and just for all — not just for those who belong to the same racial group we happen to believe that we belong to.

  • khosi

    On 29 May 1998 Deputy President Thabo Mbeki spoke of a need for this country to attend to the question of race. The previously infamous, now relevant Country of Two Nations speach.

    “No! No such is needed. We are a rainbow nation” They shouted and sneered labeling ‘racially obsessed’.

    Thirteen years later his quotation of Langston Hughes is beginning to be realised.

    How sad. How sad.

    People can twaddle on an on being driven by the hate they harbour for Thabo Mbeki, but had we listened to him, we would have honestly and earnestly tackled this issue by now. And it would have happened at a time when we were not shouting down at each other.

    I hope a call such as yours, Pierre, is not too little too late.

  • khosi

    On 29 May 1998 Deputy President Thabo Mbeki spoke of a need for this country to attend to the question of race. The previously infamous, now relevant, Country of Two Nations speach.

    “No! No such is needed. We are a rainbow nation” They shouted and sneered labeling him ‘racially obsessed’.

    Thirteen years later his quotation of Langston Hughes is beginning to be realised.

    How sad. How sad.

    People can twaddle on an on being driven by the hate they harbour for Thabo Mbeki, but had we listened to him, we would have honestly and earnestly tackled this issue by now. And it would have happened at a time when we were not shouting down at each other.

    I hope a call such as yours, Pierre, is not too little too late.

  • RickySA

    The idea to look at other things than race when considering if persons are “disadvantaged” should be applauded and taken to heart. I remember President Obama musing about the absurdness of his daughters being able to benefit from certain affirmative action programs merely due to the colour of their skin, even though they are children of highly educated, extremely influental and soon to be very wealthy persons.

    In South Africa, it seems strange that non-whites from say Sandton who are children of succesful non-white lawyers or doctors or similar professionals are beneficiaries of empowerment legislation whereas this is not the case for children of poor, uneducated whites (which exists and also existed – to my knowledge – in the days of apartheid).

  • Michael Osborne

    Pierre, your contribition is very fine, nuanced one that captures something valuable about the discourse of race. Sadly, your sensibily is probadly destined to overwhelmed by the more emotionally satisfying extremes that you acutely describe: naive “colour blindness” on the one hand, and a essentialist racial chauvanism on the other.

    You will shy away from the label, but I would call your approach “liberal” in the best sense. That means embracing AA as it must be, reluctantly treating it is an ironically necessary deviation from the non racial ideal.

  • SkyLukeWater

    Regular breathalyzer testing for ANC spokesmen might go a long way! Most of what comes out of the ANCYL sounds like drunken rantings that were minuted. I seriously have no doubt about that! We ALL need to sober up and mature up to move forward.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    “we need to try not to follow the example of Jimmy Manyi”

    Manyi is the spokesperson of the Zuma cabinet and was, as Manuel pointed out, placed by this administration to shape some pretty far reaching laws and policies.

    Listening to views of ordinary South Africans in various forums ever since this ugly saga broke out, it is heartening that many, if not most, are intrinsically committed to building a truly non-racial society.

    It is nonetheless disgraceful that President Zuma, who was overwhelmingly elected to lead South Africa to a better place, has at least allowed, if not caused, tremendous damage to the shape and character of the ANC and the consequential adverse impact on the NDR.

    Through all this I suspect that while Manyi burns, hidden by the smoke there’s much fiddling going on.

  • George Gildenhuys

    Prof for once I agree 100% with your comments on race, redress and related matters.

    I’ve always found it ironic that the very thing the ANC fought, classification by race, is what is being used for redress. But the very concept of redress (a word referring to past transgressions) would involve a degree of race classification. It has always puzzled me that class, social background and so forth does not feature at all. I believe it should!

    on a slight side note:

    This from Steve Hofmeyr’s Facebook page: “Hierdie is die jaar waarop ek sommer buitengewoon trots gaan wees om my stamboom: wit, Afrikaans, Boers en Europees, met net genoeg Afrika in my om stampmielies te waardeer”

    Shocking. I honestly do not see the difference between him, Manyi or Malema.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Pierre, many of the usual suspects, liberals who so often fulminate at your progressive stances, are heaping fulsome praise on your head. Next you will be receiving early calls from Zille, not to berate you in your bed, but to breath soft words of appreciation

    That should worry you. It is a sure sign that something has gone awry. What has gone wrong is that you have embraced the characteristic liberal analysis of the national question. You have even aped their favourite idea: “reverse racism,” a concept you would once have disdained. (As you have yourself reminded us black people lack the capacity to be racist. )

    There is nothing wrong with racial classification in itself. (We reject the American postmodern fantasy that races are mere “social constructs.”)

    To be blunt: these categories are useful in singling out the descendants of the colonial interlopers who grew fat off Africa. The intellectuals of struggle were astute to deem Europeans “internal colonialists.” If they wish to stay in Africa, having been deposed from the heights of power, they do so strictly on our terms. Helot are not so presumptious as to raise voices in public fora.

    No, the apartheid categories were not in themselves objectionable. The problem was that these categories were deployed in a manner that marginalised African people in their homelands. It is quite fitting that these same categories be used in a manner that “turns the tables,” so to speak. As Marx (or was it Lenin), demanded: “The expropriators must be expropriated.” And how will we even know who the expropriators were if we must deferentially avert out eyes from the colour of their skins and the texture of their hair, and their exotic tongue?

    Your Constitution cannot inhibit the comprehensive redress we must now exact. Kempton Park was not a product of negotiatiation among equals. A man does not freely bargain on his knees. That document was presented as fait accompli by white liberals, backed by international capitalism. The terms: “Sign here if you want you country back.” There is nothing even in western political morality that says you are bound by a contract settled while an extortionist was holding a gun to your head.

    Thanks

  • Charles Scheepers

    Maybe if we took some time to clearly define the meaning of being empowered and the fundamental requirements for reaching such a state in an ideal environment. Maybe then we can start to create effective policies to assist the truly disempowered. Defining the boundary between empowered and disempowered will make the need for racial classification unnecessary in its entirety, but it will come with a host of responsibilities (something we do not like very much in this country).

    By the shear magic of statistics, most disempowered individuals will necessarily be people discriminated against by the previous regime but a purely non-racial system will allow some disempowered white people to qualify for help as well and somehow I think our maturity will not allow that at this stage. We are not entirely about upliftment, but rather about “redress” at any cost – think Zimbabwe.

    Replacing “redress” with empowerment will obviously also require us to identify the significant responsibilities of both the privileged and the needy and measure both parties’ willingness to accept and live up to such responsibilities. This will not be easy in a punishment driven society where entitlement carries no responsibility and where a morally corrupt and intellectually challenged government accentuates and drives the racial divide.

    Try as we may, we will not be able to gain the future without letting go of the past.

  • Eddie

    we have a dual problem:

    firstly, we need RSA (PTY)ltd to run in an effective and efficient manner, so we are not left with an empty tin box by the time the powers that be see fit to perceive all saffies as productive human beings, each with their own skills to give our country.

    the second problem though, is who is the gate keeper? there is no point in letting the fox look after the chicken.

    the best intentions always seem to blur into more subjective aspects of a persons vision; we are heading to the exact social engineering that the anc fought against.

    can it be right that posts are not filled due to no suitable black candidates?

    can it be correct that people are sullied into positions that they are totally inadequate for?

    to me it seems that the noble intentions of bee/ aa etc are being bastardised by the victors. cadre deployment shows the disasterous consequences of people not fit for purpose.

    we have lost many many skills due to unskilled police detectives keeping murderers and rapists on the street; the judicial system; the health care.

    we need a new paradigm ito ee.

    white people are marginalised when in fact they could offer so much.
    black people are made to look like fools in the name of bee.

    sometimes a more pragmatic approach to all situations is the solution.

    the first port of call should be a world class education system; we need bright and hard working individuals from all race categories to be proudly south african.
    secondly, the oppurtunity to be involved must not be discounted (this is where bee comes in)
    thirdly, the realization that this would be a generational effort must be realised.

    i think that no matter what the colour of skin, we all want south africa to work.

    get rich quick / tenderpreneurs / pure daylight robbery sometimes ; these are the things that are unsustainable and to the detriment of south africa as a whole.

    i dont have any problem with black people being succesfull and rich, but sometimes the speed of wealth accumulation is just so unreal that no doubt exists that something was surly too good to be true (duduzane zuma being the latest)

  • Eddie

    mikhael

    without saying the words, it seems to me that you say this: africa is for africans. all whites are thieves and colonisers and their belongings must be taken.

    i say to you that one must walk before they run. your cart is before the donkey.

    there was always war between differnt people in history, but dont you think there is a new world order, where all countries are realising that violence begets violence.
    democracy is taking over the world, where the people are not just peasants and serfs for the king.

    wealth, to me, is about the productivty that one brings for a return of monetary value. it is not about taking things which werent even yours to begin with.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Eddie says:
    March 3, 2011 at 7:23 am

    Hey Eddie,

    “it is not about taking things which werent even yours to begin with.”

    Haiybo!

    Where were you when the apartheid government needed that advice?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    @ Eddie,

    “all whites are thieves and colonisers and their belongings must be taken.”

    Not all.

    And only Brett’s belongings must be taken. :P

  • Eddie

    lol maggs.

    this is serious.

    and remember, no two way convos.

    also, notice any spelling mistakes. im always eager to learn.

  • Umqombothi

    It does seem strange that there isn’t a way to draw up a scorecard that could negate the need to revert to Apartheid era classifications.

    This was something that struck me in the debate UCT had about race-based admission criteria and explicit discrimination in terms of points requirements. And the questions this raised, similar to RickySA’s above about who is disempowered really – the black son of professionals attending Bishops or the white rural farm boy. Max Price responded to this by saying that perhaps in some years you could (and should) move away from race but for now it is the best proxy for disadvantage. I don’t buy this argument and think that you could construct a more accurate scorecard which measures privilege directly i.e. profession/education/income of parents, schooling attended, home language vs language of study etc. My concerns in this are moral hazard and whether it creates perverse incentives and economic outcomes. i.e. if you are effectively punished for going to a good school, then will this just weaken the schools that are functioning effectively. And if income base is an indicator, will this further encourage under-reporting of income and an effect on the fiscus? And in addition the administration burden this would place on employers and universities.

    So here’s an out of the box idea. Couldn’t we have a “privilege” bureau modelled along the lines of a credit bureau with a score? This would take away the admin burden from the universities, employers, government sourcing etc. Income data, residence address, schooling etc all feed into the bureau and it spits out a score. You can choose not to report about yourself if you want and then you get the baseline – i.e. 100 with a max of say 1000 or whatever the scale is. This would thus be a very measurable outcome with objective criteria.

    Again though the problem is adverse incentive to achieve, since your score will decrease as you do. I presume though that the additional income etc you get directly would be a more powerful incentive than the score, which only brings you indirect benefits.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Oh well, our President has pronounced!

    the president “assures that the government will not do anything that undermines the spirit and the trust in our constitution … or do anything that reverses our collective achievement against our racial and painful past”.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/manyi-row-zuma-steps-in-1.1035272

    Appointing a known homophobe as ambassador, a racist/tribalist as Cabinet spokesman, not taking any firm stands on human rights abuses across the world, supporting despot leaders, ‘negotiating’ electoral outcomes is certainly not consistent with the spirit and trust in our constitution.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Umqombothi says:
    March 3, 2011 at 8:22 am

    Hey Umqombothi,

    Perhaps.

    But there’s a simpler way.

    People must do the work that they are elected and or employed to do.

    Like make sure that our schools work well in the areas that most need attention. Ditto for hospitals, police stations, the criminal justice system, home affairs, social services.

    How hard is it to get teams out to the worst performing areas to fix up the kak?

  • Pierre De Vos

    As a careful reading of this piece will make clear, my view is not that we should refuse to use race when we employ corrective measures, but rather that we may want to explore ways of using race PLUS other factors to make the process far more nuanced and to soften the effects of race-based mechanisms. If we ditch race completely, we will not capture the effects of past and ongoing racism and we will not address these wrongs properly.

  • Umqombothi

    Maggs- my point is not really about service delivery and an effective civil service. The outcome you suggest is obviously desirable. The means to achieve it less clear, but that is for another day.

    My point as per the content of the post above is on how is how to change the EEA, university admissions, (B)EE etc so that you do not have to use race. And it seems you need something:
    1) administratively bearable for the end user (university, employer, government)
    2) objective and measurable
    3) without creating adverse incentives or the opportunity to cheat the system

    I think a bureau scoring system could achieve these outcomes.

  • Umqombothi

    Pierre – I realise that your post explicitly suggests keeping race but augmenting it with additional criteria. But why is this necessary? If the situation right now is Apartheid tilted the scales according to race, and this has created an unequal society where different races are privileged, surely all you want to do is level the playing field. The scoring system I suggest will almost exclusively favour those who were disadvantaged by Apartheid. Thus it has the same result without needing to explicitly categorise race. As time goes by and things equalise (or not), then there would be more of a mix.

    Why would you want to continue using race as a proxy for disadvantage, if you could actually measure disadvantage directly?

  • unknown

    @Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    you most of the time I type quite long responces in this little comment box, but i’ve realised that it really doesn’t matter what I say here. Some people are just beyond help or understanding….

    Prof. has some valid points, and I would have suspected one to argue his points not make crap statements like yours… really… I dont get it… for example statements like….

    “(We reject the American postmodern fantasy that races are mere “social constructs.”)”

    for example. Please explain/define who “we” are? and I do you speak for all the “we”‘s and say that “we” reject etc etc etc. I see these terms ALOT in responces made by gov people etc. Why is the word “we” used? who does this refer to? if America/UK/Germany make an announcement, they actually rarely use the word “we”.

    Please someone explain this to me… why people who are getting paid a LOT of money can’t even write a proper report…

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Umqombothi says:
    March 3, 2011 at 8:36 am

    Hey Umqo,

    A generic approach to resolving the inequalities and iniquity will tend to favour the strongest, richest and most powerful in our society.

    My view is that those who need the most, get the least.

    Unless the structural and systemic hurdles are addressed in a serious way, not much will change.

    It is necessary to make vertical and horizontal interventions but the most effort and resources ought to be put into those who need the most support.

    We can argue year after year after year about university admissions – but unless we make sure that mud schools are a thing of the past, that proper education is provided to most needy, that mud schools are a thing of the past, that school books are delivered on time, that educators are properly trained, resourced and held accountable this debate around race based university admission will continue to dominate.

    There’s something awfully amiss when the most vociferous debates are around university admissions affecting less than 1/2% of our people when much of the rest remain functionally unskilled. University training is not going to turn our country and economy around – upskilling our people will. In any event our universities put out brigades of workers – we have enough workers.

    This is especially so when considering that our country has the most natural resources in the world yet our emphasis is to train people to use picks and shovels to dig up the resources and send it elsewhere for value adding.

    I talk to people regularly in India and China who buy our metals, plastics, paper and convert these in their backyard operations to convert these into consumer and industrial products which we buy back form them.

    What the heck is wrong with us???

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    unknown says:
    March 3, 2011 at 8:42 am

    Hey Unknown

    “Please someone explain this to me… why people who are getting paid a LOT of money can’t even write a proper report…”

    It’s pretty clear that yours is an important question.

    Dworky and/or Pierre will probably not answer it because as you correctly point out “Some people are just beyond help or understanding….”

    I hope that helps.

  • Gwebecimele

    Why should poor whites get a chance on a second wave of empowerment?

  • Umqombothi

    Maggs,

    Just to clarify on your point about favouring the strong. I am specifically advocating redress on the basis of disadvantage, just saying quantify this objectively rather then using race as a proxy. This would certainly favour the weak.

    On your broader point – absolutely. To properly correct the inequalities created you need to focus on education at the earliest possible stage. All research points towards interventions at nursery school (and then primary) being by far the most effective. It’s almost pointless to intervene at late tertiary and university stage. Doubly so here perhaps because of the tiny graduate pool we have relative to the general population.

    I actually think entrepreneurship and a robust secondary economy is the only way to properly lift mass amounts of people out of poverty. As a broad generalisation this is the Asian model (food stalls are everywhere and cheap, meaning people eat out all the time as it’s often as cheap or cheaper than cooking yourself), taxis are ubiquitous and cheap enough for the local population. etc etc. millions of tiny enterprises that create employment and drive growth (often with the proceeds being plugged into education for future generations).

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, I always find it sad when you opt to side with the racists among us.

    Nevertheless, what do you about the fact that according the Business Day this morning, Mantahse has criticized Manuel, while the Cape Times says the criticism was directed at Manyi?

    Who to believe?

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Umqombothi

    While your scorecard idea sounds good it poses certain challenges

    1. Since it focusses on lifting from the bottom and might strengthen equality, it runs the risk of being labelled communist.
    2. Secondly, it suggests a one size fits all. Although it might work in job applications, universities, grants etc it might face challenges for example in big deals which require some resources from the applicants. How would you rate a mixed couple(B+W) from different backgrounds?

  • Umqombothi

    Gwebecimele
    March 3, 2011 at 9:41 am
    Why should poor whites get a chance on a second wave of empowerment?

    This bludgeons my point. If we are to move away from race as a defining criteria and the poison that comes with perpetuating Apartheid era classifications, then we need to stop looking at everything through a colour lens. I am absolutely not saying this in the spirit of “Apartheid’s over and everyone’s equal”. I am trying to arrive at a point where you achieve the exact same outcome in the short term (i.e. the upliftment of people disempowered by Apartheid), but using a consistent, objective metric that is not race-based and is long term.

  • khosi

    Because people are twaddling on like the political peacoks they are, here is Mbeki’s statement on the matter:-

    http://www.dfa.gov.za/docs/speeches/1998/mbek0529.htm

  • Gwebecimele

    WHY ARE WE NOT HEARING THE SAME LEVEL OF NOISE ON DU PREEZ COMMENTS JUST LIKE IN MANYI AND ROBERTS? may he should check his postbox for AN OPEN LETTER?

    on Tuesday.

    In a letter to ombudsman Joe Thloloe, Motshekga says Du Preez, in the article headlined “Black rulers’ whitewash of coloureds”, makes racially disparaging claims on the coloured community, by “claiming that unlike other South Africans, coloured people have no roots and belonging”.

    “I believe the following remarks are particularly offensive: ‘This rootlessness of most coloured people, this sense they got over centuries of not belonging, is the only reason why gangsterism is so rife in that community. Gangsterism is almost always [a] yearning for a tribe, an attempt to belong’.”

    The suggestion that most coloured people were criminals and that, because of their alleged “lack of belonging” or “roots”, turn to the life of crime for solace or sense of belonging, is highly offensive and portrays the worst form of racial stereotype, he said.

  • Umqombothi

    Gwebe,

    1) good point – I hadn’t thought through the implications of it. Although since it will NOT just be income focused, but also look at other variables (school attended etc) it should be a good measure of opportunity rather than just penalising high earners. But I agree it could tend towards this, and extrapolate to a communist style outcome (which was part of my nagging concerns about adverse incentives and economic outcomes)
    2) I don’t agree with big BEE deals as currently structured. I support broad-based empowerment which uplifts communities. i.e. trusts with workers and the broader community taking ownership. This would then be even easier to measure. i.e. the deal should include x 1000 people with a score above 650 for example.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Umqombothi says:
    March 3, 2011 at 9:47 am

    Umqo,

    “I am specifically advocating redress on the basis of disadvantage”

    At each horizontal level, strong and determined interventions are a must.

    Increasingly so vertically.

    There’s no perfect fit. We have to do the best we can as a nation – for now we have a long way to go.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Khosi

    Let us accept that Mbeki warned us about this potential danger. As a President of this country for more than 10 yrs don’t you think he should have done more?

    Today we would all be proud of his foresight and actions.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    March 3, 2011 at 9:49 am

    Hey Dworky

    “Who to believe?”

    Manuel, Manyi, Mantashe, Zuma, ….

    None of the above.

    I only believe the Guptas these days.

    Let’s wait to hear what they have to say on this matter.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Umqombothi

    The biggest problem with SA(after 94) is that we hardly fully agree on anything hence less implementation. We argue about everything and hardly give a chance to a plan and strenghten it as we go along. I hope govt/ANC will develop a backbone and implement conference resolutions. Those who do not like it can go and vote. This model of co-governing is not working. Some have made it their daily job to sabotage every appointment/policy/plan that comes on the table. We gave a chance to Gear AND IT IS NOT DELIVERING for us why should we forever justify for its replacement.

    The ICT charter is dying a natural death and the Finance charter diluted to 10% DIRECT ownership. We all know the ANC want BBBEE. wHY IS NOT HAPPENING? wHAT IS THE DELAY ON NHI, LABOUR BROKERS,EE, LAND REDISTRIBUTION, BROADBAND, AMD etc.

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 3, 2011 at 9:41 am

    Why should whites continue paying tax when their poor relations are excluded from the benefits and they personally get little value for their sacrifice?

  • Brett Nortje

    Good debate, Maggs and Umqombothi!

    Khosi, take this cap and go sit in the corner. Start preparing a presentation to the class. Consider how much better race relations would have been (and service delivery!) had your hero done his utmost to defend the Government of National Unity and retain all the management skills of the people who had been running the state administration much of their lives – instead of wanting to be the only bull (littlest bull!) in the kraal!

    Think where race relations could of been had it not been for the ‘transformation’ of the SAPS and the criminal justice system…

    That is right – 17 years of ‘Rainbow Nation’ instead of 3!

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 3, 2011 at 10:27 am

    Gwebecimele, what you call ‘arguing about everything’ is the natural consequence of the ANC’s racialised war of position.

    When people are pushed – if they are worth anything – they start pushing back.

  • Charles Scheepers

    Thank God for the delay on NHI, Labour Brokers, Land Redistribution, etc, etc… This way people who were privileged enough to go good schools and disciplined enough to resist burning them down can do the actual math on the impact of such ill-conceived ideas. Then, hopefully, there is at least a small voice of reason in the otherwise seething mass of stupidity that we live with.

    Maybe a more mathematical evaluation of disadvantage will help move decisions from the emotional to the intellectual side of an argument. This will probably not please the “we demand” crowd, but it will advantage them more in the long run. We desperately lack critical though and honest evaluation of ideas in this country.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Brett

    I must send you to one of the rural remote areas for a month and you will realise that you are getting better value for your white tax money.

    @ Charles

    Enjoy it while you can.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 3, 2011 at 11:21 am

    Hey Gwebs,

    “your white tax money.”

    The notion off ‘tax payers money’ is a seriously flawed one.

    There’s no such thing!

  • Brett Nortje

    Anyone who continues to pay tax while government thumbs its nose at the Constitution is undermining the constitutional order.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje says:
    March 3, 2011 at 11:40 am

    Hey Brett,

    “Anyone who continues to pay tax while government thumbs its nose at the Constitution is undermining the constitutional order.”

    Those are distinct and separate things.

    Paying tax is obligatory for those who earn enough to pay.

    Meeting constitutional obligations is discretionary, optional and random :P.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Maggs

    Are u saying this money belongs to Brett AND HIS GROUP or is it petty cash for financing special projects?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 3, 2011 at 11:48 am

    LOL!

    I read regularly of people saying ‘tax payers’ money.

    I reckon that it’s state money.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com says:
    March 3, 2011 at 11:44 am

    “Paying tax is obligatory for those who earn enough to pay.”

    So, it is a state of tyranny? Like Brother Leader’s homeland?

  • Brett Nortje

    Haai, Pierre, waar is jou blog oor die SAPS se besoekie aan die OB?

    Waarvan Cele niks geweet het nie?

    Moet nie dat ons jou vang afslack nie!!

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje says:
    March 3, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    Hey Brett,

    “So, it is a state of tyranny? Like Brother Leader’s homeland?”

    If you don’t pay your tax we will send you to look after Brother Leader.

    As you know he likes many women taking care of his needs.

    But he can be convinced to be non-sexist.

  • Brett Nortje

    Will those many women be allowed to take care of my needs too?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje says:
    March 3, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    Hey Brett,

    “Will those many women be allowed to take care of my needs too?”

    I am sure they will.

    It is rumoured that he has a few nurses around.

    After Brother Leader has, er, engaged you, I am sure that they will be willing to take care of you.

    Better you pay your tax and shut up about it, eh!

  • kenneth

    i was just talking with my coloured friends hours ago, obviouslyabout manyi , trevor, etc.and i asked what happen when the population of western cape increase by let say 30%, through birth or immigration. do we have enough land to accomodate such increase, will they take people to the karoo, since westerncape does not have rural area, everything must be bought (land), i can always go back to my rural village where i am sure to get land free(R500.00),soon or later my coloured brothers will have to move to the north, land is cheap and if you survive on the child grant, you can stil make living, no more land is the cape and the available one is sold for commercial reasons, i.e to the germans(bigbay).

    Last time i checked there was no water in “beafortwest”, as for AA or BBBEE, i think government should rather use the provincial stats, or regional but the only place black people will find employments will be at the former homelands TBVN, and Nongoma

  • spoiler

    “…my view is not that we should refuse to use race when we employ corrective measures, but rather that we may want to explore ways of using race PLUS other factors to make the process far more nuanced and to soften the effects of race-based mechanisms. ”

    I’d say this is impossible. Where would you start – compile a detailed family and financial history of every citizen and then give them more points if they had a rough childhood, black or white? How will this ever be fair? Where has this ever been done with success?

    Isnt what we really need is individual responsibility, a national ethic if you like,that that includes hard work, getting a good education and so on. Look at how countries like Korea, Viet Nam and Japan have prospered after war and turmoil of teh highest order. Why is it that we can’t look at one African success story as a role model and continue to blame colonisation, apartheid and the CIA?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    kenneth says:
    March 3, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    Hey Kenneth,

    “do we have enough land to accomodate such increase”

    Maybe government will consider adapting Mr Manyi’s amendments to the EEA.

    Perhaps a law outlawing Coloured people from having children?

    That will solve the problem as you see it.

  • unknown

    @kenneth

    well if you people with “rural” land leave the cape flats, and move back to the R500.00 land in whatever place and not come here, then maybe there is land for the capetonians who come from here. I mean your point makes no sense other than show your intellegence and incompetence…

    funny how this is now such a joke…

  • kenneth

    @unknown

    just investigate what i said.

  • Hendrik J

    I stand amazed at the crude, reductionism displayed by Manyi and his supporters here, best exemplified by M D Fassbinder. Bryan Rostron put it this way: “all identity chauvinism, especially if centred on race, runs the risk of eventually substituting colour for values (such as justice and equality). Race instead becomes a value in itself almost inevitably ending up with authoritarianism.”
    Two things: race is NOT a value or a principle. And true empowerment comes from service delivery. In its extreme form, affirmative action would be to take everything away from the white population and “give” it to the black population (ignoring logistical problems for the moment). But the inequalities will be back within a few years, if the beneficiaries of such an action are not also equipped with the capital to make a success of life. Those that walk the corridors of power must be held accountable for service delivery. If they fail in that department, ask yourself – will they or will they not promote a racial ideology blaming their failures on the attitudes of white people? And Khosi, Mbeki is NOT the answer, he’d rather see a country burned to the ground, and treat a black leader like a child, to concede to a “white” argument… Bottom line: non racialism, as espoused by the DUFF, is dead in this country, Manyi and his like killed it. The truly sad thing is that there I probably a direct connection between the arrogance of the New Racists, and the fact that South African spends more per capita on education than Bahrain, yet has one of the worst outcomes in result. The problem is not lack of access to resources, its lack of access to better principles and better attitudes. South Africa has fallen 30 places in the Human Development Index since 1994. Expect the fall to carry on if you happen to blame that on “colonialism”.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Hey Kenneth,

    Here’s a solution.

    The authorities have slapped a ban on the movement of horses into the Western Cape after an outbreak of African horse sickness in the rest of the country.

    http://www.capetimes.co.za/horses-barred-from-entering-western-cape-1.1035425

    Just add Coloureds to that ban and all Mr Manyi’s problems are solved.

  • Gwebecimele

    Kenneth

    Give it another shot.

  • unknown

    @kenneth

    i was just talking with my coloured friends hours ago, obviouslyabout manyi , trevor, etc.and i asked what happen when the population of western cape increase by let say 30%, through birth or immigration. do we have enough land to accomodate such increase, will they take people to the karoo, since westerncape does not have rural area, everything must be bought (land), i can always go back to my rural village where i am sure to get land free(R500.00),soon or later my coloured brothers will have to move to the north, land is cheap and if you survive on the child grant, you can stil make living, no more land is the cape and the available one is sold for commercial reasons, i.e to the germans(bigbay).

    Last time i checked there was no water in “beafortwest”, as for AA or BBBEE, i think government should rather use the provincial stats, or regional but the only place black people will find employments will be at the former homelands TBVN, and Nongoma

    so what did i miss understand….??? if you are sarcastic… very funny HAHAHA

    if you are serious… then my point still stand… leave cape or dont complain… simple.

  • jeffman

    Breaking news, cops raided the office of the Public protector last night! Bizarre! Cele looking for documents apparently!

  • Henri

    Banana Republic??
    Cops “swoop” on a section 9 institution?:
    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/cops-swoop-on-public-protector-s-office-1.1035469

    Can’t be, certainly….

  • Anonymouse

    George Gildenhuys

    “This from Steve Hofmeyr’s Facebook page: “Hierdie is die jaar waarop ek sommer buitengewoon trots gaan wees om my stamboom: wit, Afrikaans, Boers en Europees, met net genoeg Afrika in my om stampmielies te waardeer””

    Weeell, he forgot to add “jags en orig” just after “Europees”.

  • Brett Nortje

    Henri says:
    March 3, 2011 at 13:49 pm

    It is easy to trace back the roots of this direct attack on the constitutional state.

    When Selebi and Nqakula told parliament they refused to pay compensation for surrendered firearms as provided for by the FCA it was a defining moment.

    A coup d’etat’. A shrugging off of the idea of a Rechtsstaat.

    Many progressives were either too stupid to realise what was happening or too partisan to give a shit.

    You were warned, pinkos!

  • Anonymouse

    Henri says:
    March 3, 2011 at 13:49 pm

    Banana Republic indeed. But, we all know that is the way that Cops act when their top eschelon is threatened – the way Selebi’s thugs took hold of Gerrie nel! – which is why the Scorpions should never have been replaced with the Falcons (I do not think we can call them ‘Hawks’)

  • Gwebecimele

    Brett

    Did you have to bring your GUN/Mshini wam into this?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 3, 2011 at 14:03 pm

    “Did you have to bring your GUN/Mshini wam into this?”

    LMAO.

    Mshini Wam – haiybo!

  • spoiler

    @Hendrik J – well put indeed. We can play word games with redress and play the blame game ad infinitum, but without responsible leadership and service delivery, and dare I say it an abandonment of a culture of entitlement, especially among our “leaders’ we aint gonna get anywhere.

    When last did you hear one of our kleptocrats extolling the virtue of a good education and fine morals? Have they ever and would anyone take Zuma seriously if he, the wealthier by the minute patriarch, were to do so?

  • Donovan

    I hope that all will read Mikhail Fassbinder’s very first comment on this matter. It puts the matters of redress, transformation, and its links with race into context. It does not attempt to mollify matters but recognises that it is only resource or material redistribution can we have true transformation.

    But let me remind you all what Nelson Mandela wrote, about a month before his release in January 1990:

    “The nationalisation of the mines, banks and monopoly industries is the policy of the ANC, and the change or modification of our views in this regard is inconceivable. Black economic empowerment is a goal we fully support and encourage, but in our situation state control of certain sectors of the economy is unavoidable.”

    One does not need to say more.

  • khosi

    @Gwebecimele,
    March 3, 2011 at 10:09 am

    Of course he did do something about it. That is why he has always been labeled as ‘racially obsessed’ and ‘divisive’ with the policies that were adopted by his government.

    That he did something is the very reason why so many white people hate him. Personally, I appreciate him for that.

    WE need introspection and accept that we, as citizens, are the biggest culprits in what is going on.

    Political leadership was provided on the issue. But we chose to listen to colonial mouthpieces such as Sunday Times (toilet paper) and Mail and Guardian.

  • spoiler

    There we go blaming the colonialists again Lol

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Khosi

    LOL

    Whose face should be in that Sunday times?

    Don’t you think Whites miss him? He was going to spare them the “The birthday boy”, Manyi’s, and others. I sincerely think they were better off under him and made a lot moola too. Deep down they are longing for him.

  • Moss

    Strange how we feel the need to find a proxy for disadvantage (ie race) when we could just have been using disadvantage as a proxy for itself all along.

    Not so strange, really, when you consider that those who make these decisions are the same people who benefit most from the policy.

    Whose kids are getting all those bursaries, finding places in the best universities despite poor marks, and being appointed to government jobs even if their qualifications are not up to scratch?

    The kids of the new elite, that’s who. There’s no way they are going to change the rules, not until they are pushed very, very hard. It would be against their best interests.

    Just like it was against the immediate selfish interests of whites to get rid of apartheid. And we had to be pushed very, very hard before we saw the big picture, didn’t we?

  • Gwebecimele

    After all has been said and done, the smart people of the Cape will vote with their feet. I have no doubt that the so called “Coloureds” are smart and reasoning people. They know that they are king makers in the Cape and will excercise their right with caution.

    The political mudslinging from all parties and individuals involved will achieve nothing.

    WE DESERVE BETTER CAMAPINING!!!!!!!!!!!! AND BETTER COUNCILLORS.

  • Gwebecimele

    CAMAPINING=CAMPAIGNING

  • unknown

    @Gwebecimele

    “After all has been said and done, the smart people of the Cape will vote with their feet. I have no doubt that the so called “Coloureds” are smart and reasoning people. They know that they are king makers in the Cape and will excercise their right with caution.”

    what have you been smoking? I think they have been lied to once… so I dont think the ANC will win here anymore… not for ALONG time… if it happens I call voter rigging… and that means we are officially zim..

    I doubt the ANC will protest against that… So much to learn .. ai ai

  • Gwebecimele

    @ unkown

    Ask Maggs for some “Concetrated stuff” it really works.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Donovan

    “One does not need to say more.”

    Donovan, no, you do need to say more, much more.

    Just watch. Gwebe and Maggs and all the others who seem quite comfortable with the pro-capitalist neo-liberal tendencies of the current ANC leadership are going to find all manner of excuses, like “Mandela did not really mean it,” or “global conditions have changed” or “don’t worry, the ANC will recover its socialist roots, watch this space”, or “state ownership does not work anymore,” or some such things.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    March 3, 2011 at 16:28 pm

    Who is this imposter?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, do you really suspect that Donovan is actually JR gone nuts? .

    I doubt it. JR has been well taken care of.

    What do you think of Colonel Chavez’s attempt to broker peace in Libya?

    I say: No compromise with Zionist-inspired insurrectionists!

    The U.S. must not use the so-called “No Fly Zone” to steal the oil wealth of the Libyan people.

    Thanks.

    What do YOU say?

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 3, 2011 at 14:03 pm

    Gwebecimele, I’m hurt! Shocked. Horrified.

    Do you disagree with me on the facts?

    P.s. Please slip Khosi a reality pill.

    P.s.2 What we deserve is to be rid of the ANC!

  • Sivakashi

    @Fassbinder @ Donovan

    I suspect you are trolls, but nevertheless – Mandela was also a non-racialist. Is South Africa the only country where “socialism” is espoused with cheap BMF style bling? Where they shout “viva Cuba!” while showing off their Breitling watches. The only “book” that a recent interviewer saw in Malema’s office is a Ranger Rover catalogue.

    Better get that job at the NYDA son, since I won’t employ you.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje says:
    March 3, 2011 at 23:50 pm

    Hey Mshini Guy

    “P.s.2″?

    My preference is the Nintendo Wii.

  • kenneth

    @unknown

    ANC never won westerncape not even once, it is the media which make you think that they probably won, mandela was released from jail and before any servicewas performed by th Mandela admin,he was rejected for Mr kriel(1994), the only reason ANC ruled westerncape was because of seperation of DP and NNP(peter marais saga). otherwise NO,it has nothing to do with blackman ndoro and Manyi. so if 75%of the people in the province they do not want you, you do not rule them by force, because they will revolt, simply let them choose freely, who they want to support as long as we agree that we are not going to build open toilets for the remaining 25%.
    but the land should still be available for the my coloured brothers outside the karoo,only if they wish to do so

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    kenneth says:
    March 4, 2011 at 8:14 am

    Hey kenneth,

    Indeed that is so.

    There’s one small consideration with the position taken by Manyi, the BMF and Cabinet.

    It’s in the fine print in our Constitution (it’s hard to find and obscured too so here’s a tip) :

    “21. 3. Every citizen has the right to enter, to remain in and to reside anywhere in, the Republic.”

    It’s not clear though whether ‘every citizen’ includes Coloured people in the Western Cape.

    Maybe not.

    Cabinet knows best.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    On the other hand, Manyi has a point.

    “21. 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement.”

    I guess that means that some can be moved around freely by government when they are ‘over concentrated’. Sort of like what would be done when there’s too much cattle on a farm.

    Hey maybe we can start sending Coloured people from the Western Cape to the abbatoirs like is done when there’s the ‘over supply’ of cattle.

  • Eddie

    talking about government policies:

    http://www.miningmx.com/news/markets/fraser-institute-knocks-sa%27s-mining-rating.htm

    i got a plan, lets keep up all the rhetoric from our kindergarten league; its really helping investment.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Eddie says:
    March 4, 2011 at 9:15 am

    Hey Bad Speller,

    Our plan is a smart as Dr Mugabe’s.

    It was reported that he wants Zimbabweans to first boycott multinational’s products.

    Then, when the companies are worthless he wants to take those over.

    Good plan, eh?

  • MDU

    mmmmm interesting discussion, but there is something that we all forget when talking about righting the wrongs of the past, this is the seemingly unimportant matter of whites who actually fought against apartheid and suffered as a result. Is it justified for them to denied empowerment?

    I would argue that such self-less whites deserve empowerment even more than blacks, simply because they chose to fight against a system that although devilish it stood to benefit them.
    It appears to be true that no good deed goes unpunished.

    I have to agree with Moss when he/she states that we dont need race as a proxy for disavantage but lets us use the disavantange itself as a proxy.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Eddie

    Surveys and damn statistics. Intentions and reality are 2 different things. Few years ago many would have indicated their intention to migrate/leave this pathetic new SA and some did, guess what some never left and others are back. It has very little to with the strength of the rand. Others dug bunkers and ordered tinned food.

    BTW Zimbabwe and other unpopular destinations seem to attract investment. How do you explain that?

  • khosi

    @Gwebecimele
    March 3, 2011 at 15:23 pm

    Eish the list is long. But Mondli Makhanya will be a good start, or rather, wipe! LOL! Some of the bloggers here would definitely make the list.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    MDU says:
    March 4, 2011 at 9:30 am

    Hey Mdu,

    “I would argue that such self-less whites deserve empowerment even more than blacks, simply because they chose to fight against a system that although devilish it stood to benefit them.”

    Those who stood up against apartheid did so because the entire system was skewed in their favour.

    It’s unlikely that anyone who understands the distortion in our society and who actively fought to remedy it would now want to be ‘empowered’ – that would run contrary to the transformation agenda which they struggled for.

    One of the finest most selfless South African whom I knew was Peter Kerchoff. He abandoned all his worldly assets in the late 70s/early 80s (including a plum job, company car, office with a view etc) to go on foot or on a bicycle into the church and work among Whites to unpack the evils of apartheid.

    Unfortunately Peter died before he could see any progress.

    Oh well – there’s a street named after him now.

  • Eddie

    gwebs

    investment in zim??

    tendai biti is begging for investment thats not forth coming.

    he is even wanting 500 000 000 from sa, which i suppose will never get paid back if its given.

    surveys and damn lies: touche. except that perception is everything, and the bottom line is the money; its not coming to sa for any new mining projects.

    we can always ask the chinese (aurora); they are black people anyway according to our warped bee lenses, and we all know why they are so competitive (r20 a day for a worker is just about right i suppose. who needs to eat anyway)

    the truth is the mining industry is dying a slow death, and its been so for at least the last 5-10 years, ito new investment on infrustructure and exploration.

    but the gold will just ooze out when nationilaztion happens i suppose ;)

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Eddie says:
    March 4, 2011 at 9:58 am

    Hey Eddie,

    “the truth is the mining industry is dying a slow death, and its been so for at least the last 5-10 years, ito new investment on infrustructure and exploration.”

    hehehehe.

    Thus the generosity of some in the mining sector to ‘give’ their mines to government.

    In any event the whole ‘nationalisation’ drive is inspired by the decline in the mining sector which is likely to get a lot worse before it gets better.

    So government can buy worthless mines and relieve those behind the ANCYL’s ‘inspiration’ of their burdens.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Mdu

    Marthinus Van Schalwyk, Cronin, Watson’s, Wendy Lucas Bull etc are being “empowered”

  • Mdu

    mmmm Maggs argues ‘It’s unlikely that anyone who understands the distortion in our society and who actively fought to remedy it would now want to be ‘empowered’ – that would run contrary to the transformation agenda which they struggled for.’

    My argument is simlpy that the whites who were disempowered as a result of fighting against apartheid deserve no less empowerment than blacks, I would even venture to say that they deserve more. The suffering and disadvantage they suffered as a result of their stance on Apartheid was as real as that of blacks and yes I would even argue that theirs was worse because they were viewed by some of their own as traitors “kaffir lovers” and thus they were hated even more than blacks. After all a kaffir is better than a traitor.

    The argument is simple, empowerment should redress past disadvantage brought about by apartheid government. Wether the disadvantage was brought on blacks or whites who were against the system should not matter. Past-disadvatange and not race should be the determinator.

    lastly race empowerment only really empowers those with the most advantage within that race which is deemed to be disadvantaged. This should not so, it should start from the bottom were the need for empowerment is most great.

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  • zoo keeper

    Prof

    Please tell me at what point does a person move from being classified as coloured to being classified as white?

    I don’t know where the tipping point is for a scorecard so perhaps you can ask your UCT race-classification bureau for some advice?

  • zoo keeper

    Mdu raises an excellent point.

    I wold also add that there are many assumptions about the past – one being that all whites benefitted “unduly”.

    Would you say that AA/BEE has benefitted blacks in the same way you’d say Apartheid benefitted whites?

    Probably not – its exactly the same stuff. Only the elite gets the “priviledge”, some might get a few jobs here and there but that’s about it.

    Perhaps we should liquidate the estates of all National Party and Broederbond members and their families and call it quits? They are the true recipients of priviledge, not the white population as a whole.

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  • Lurker

    Late comment, but if you’re looking for out the box ideas, let private industry lead the way, keep AA, BEE et al as far as emplyoment is concerned if you like, but only as far as getting the post (for a minimum period of a tew months) then allow easy firing of non-performers. (Permanant staff and postitions should NOT subject to law)
    A “racists” Co. (black, white or other) would not be able to compete with a muti-racial performance orientated one.

    To afford re-dress, the whiter (more recent immigrant) pays a higher tax on a sliding scale to where a Zulu in WC pays more than a Xhosa and the reverse is true in KZN, this above a bass line tax – the difference being earmarked for education on a sliding scale with rural primary schools getting the more than urban tertiary.

    Anyways, my late 2 cents.

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  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Good lord.

    Our poor children!

    “Whether Barbara likes it or not, we will have our meetings. Despite Barbara, we will vote for the ANC during the elections and they will remove her. Let us not embrace satanic people. Down with satanism… You cannot be friends with white people, they will satanise you.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article962608.ece/Sadtu-distances-self-from-chairman