<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: A sad day for our judiciary and the JSC</title>
	<atom:link href="http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 12:45:55 +0200</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Skhokho Radebe</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17666</link>
		<dc:creator>Skhokho Radebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17666</guid>
		<description>@Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder, thank you for pointing out the obvious to all the Hlopephobes and Prof and his sheep. I concur to your post Fassbinder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder, thank you for pointing out the obvious to all the Hlopephobes and Prof and his sheep. I concur to your post Fassbinder.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Galen</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17659</link>
		<dc:creator>Galen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17659</guid>
		<description>I agree with Kameraad Mhambi. The matter should be referred, even if a &#039;favourable&#039; outcome in Parliament cannot be expected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Kameraad Mhambi. The matter should be referred, even if a &#8216;favourable&#8217; outcome in Parliament cannot be expected.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kameraad Mhambi</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17620</link>
		<dc:creator>Kameraad Mhambi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17620</guid>
		<description>Anonymouse asks:

&quot;However, one must ask oneself the question whether “die kool die sous werd is”. Even if the JSC at the direction of the Court does conduct a full hearing and, even if it does in the end recommend impeachment, the problem will still remain: How can a majority of two thirds be attained in both houses of Parliament to impeach and secure the dismissal of Hlophe? Given the ANC’s majority, and its clear inclination to promote party-politics (and partisanism among judges to further the cause of the majoritrty political party) rather than proper governance, independence of the judiciary and the Rule of Law, the chances are much less than average that Parliament would impeach Hlophe.&quot;

Even if you are right, and I suspect you are, I still think it would be a dereliction of duty not to. It would also send an important symbolic message.

When the Nats changed the composition of the judiciary to remove coloreds from the voters role it was clear nothing would stop them. Still everything was tried. 

To give up would shame us forever for generations to come. I still believe that in the end, justice will win, but only if good and principled men don&#039;t do nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymouse asks:</p>
<p>&#8220;However, one must ask oneself the question whether “die kool die sous werd is”. Even if the JSC at the direction of the Court does conduct a full hearing and, even if it does in the end recommend impeachment, the problem will still remain: How can a majority of two thirds be attained in both houses of Parliament to impeach and secure the dismissal of Hlophe? Given the ANC’s majority, and its clear inclination to promote party-politics (and partisanism among judges to further the cause of the majoritrty political party) rather than proper governance, independence of the judiciary and the Rule of Law, the chances are much less than average that Parliament would impeach Hlophe.&#8221;</p>
<p>Even if you are right, and I suspect you are, I still think it would be a dereliction of duty not to. It would also send an important symbolic message.</p>
<p>When the Nats changed the composition of the judiciary to remove coloreds from the voters role it was clear nothing would stop them. Still everything was tried. </p>
<p>To give up would shame us forever for generations to come. I still believe that in the end, justice will win, but only if good and principled men don&#8217;t do nothing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Atkins</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17615</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Atkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17615</guid>
		<description>I think that it is time that we restore the use of the word &quot;evil&quot; into our public discourse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that it is time that we restore the use of the word &#8220;evil&#8221; into our public discourse.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mayimele</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17614</link>
		<dc:creator>mayimele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17614</guid>
		<description>Big Sleeper - August 28, 2009 at 17:31 pm 

You are spot on Big Sleeper. I am not surprised at all.  Unfortunately this is what we have to put up with for the next 10 years under this new administration.

I did not expect a different outcome from this since the foundation has already been laid with the bizarre dropping of the JZ case. And I expect similar outcomes in future where JZ and ANC&#039;s cronies are involved.

Mandela once said he fought against white domination as well as against black domination. Meaning he did not fight to replace the white apartheid with the black apartheid. Unfortunately, the very man he aspires to and pretends to be the next Mandela is institutionalizing another domination based on cult and loyalty to him while Mandela fought for and ensured that fair and equal justice is dispensed to all irrespective of socio-political and economic standing in the society. 
 
Thomas, do you really think there is going to be anything apolitical under this administration when it comes to dispensing justice where the interests of the current ANC leadership is involved? You are expecting too much and you are certainly in for a big surprise of your life.

Prof, the sad day for our judiciary had dawned long time ago when the NPA dropped JZ case on the basis of illegally solicited tapes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big Sleeper &#8211; August 28, 2009 at 17:31 pm </p>
<p>You are spot on Big Sleeper. I am not surprised at all.  Unfortunately this is what we have to put up with for the next 10 years under this new administration.</p>
<p>I did not expect a different outcome from this since the foundation has already been laid with the bizarre dropping of the JZ case. And I expect similar outcomes in future where JZ and ANC&#8217;s cronies are involved.</p>
<p>Mandela once said he fought against white domination as well as against black domination. Meaning he did not fight to replace the white apartheid with the black apartheid. Unfortunately, the very man he aspires to and pretends to be the next Mandela is institutionalizing another domination based on cult and loyalty to him while Mandela fought for and ensured that fair and equal justice is dispensed to all irrespective of socio-political and economic standing in the society. </p>
<p>Thomas, do you really think there is going to be anything apolitical under this administration when it comes to dispensing justice where the interests of the current ANC leadership is involved? You are expecting too much and you are certainly in for a big surprise of your life.</p>
<p>Prof, the sad day for our judiciary had dawned long time ago when the NPA dropped JZ case on the basis of illegally solicited tapes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sebjeni Moyahabo</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17611</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebjeni Moyahabo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17611</guid>
		<description>Annonymouse,

I concur, 
We just have to let go of this matter, because even if it goes to parliament, Hlophe will still not be voted out. (May be because  the matter has a Zuma name in it).

I know Hlophe is very intelligent and capable of extraordinary, but it is not to the interest of the judiciary (and the country) to have at least one Judge (either one from the CC or Hlophe) who lied, to be allowed to continue sitting on the bench.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Annonymouse,</p>
<p>I concur,<br />
We just have to let go of this matter, because even if it goes to parliament, Hlophe will still not be voted out. (May be because  the matter has a Zuma name in it).</p>
<p>I know Hlophe is very intelligent and capable of extraordinary, but it is not to the interest of the judiciary (and the country) to have at least one Judge (either one from the CC or Hlophe) who lied, to be allowed to continue sitting on the bench.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17607</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17607</guid>
		<description>Anonymouse, you raise an interesting point. The judge&#039;s all subscribed to the minority view. So one question could be: does the majority know how shoddy its reasoning is? Who knows right? 

But perhaps the better view is that the majority always knew that Hlophe would catch a break. And that after the media groups successfully launched a very welcome application, the majority was merely forced to accept that it would have to look somewhat foolish and crooked in order to realise its ultimate object.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymouse, you raise an interesting point. The judge&#8217;s all subscribed to the minority view. So one question could be: does the majority know how shoddy its reasoning is? Who knows right? </p>
<p>But perhaps the better view is that the majority always knew that Hlophe would catch a break. And that after the media groups successfully launched a very welcome application, the majority was merely forced to accept that it would have to look somewhat foolish and crooked in order to realise its ultimate object.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris McDaniel</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17606</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris McDaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17606</guid>
		<description>I guess the &quot;Shenanigans&quot; of the JSC saw fruit. Well what you espect with a board which has been pumped with BLA members??

But there is hope the CC judges can ask for a review, If I was them take it to court the JSC can not be trusted nore can it come to a complete decision, The jsc was not in anyway interested to hear evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the &#8220;Shenanigans&#8221; of the JSC saw fruit. Well what you espect with a board which has been pumped with BLA members??</p>
<p>But there is hope the CC judges can ask for a review, If I was them take it to court the JSC can not be trusted nore can it come to a complete decision, The jsc was not in anyway interested to hear evidence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17605</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17605</guid>
		<description>I have to withdraw my misgivings as far as Bernard Ngoepe is concerned since he is reported to have been part of the minority group of four. Thanks Snowman and Kameraad Mhambi for the info. Lex Mpati, Bernard Ngoepe (both judges, both black - hence racism cannot be cried), Von Klemperer (an attorney); and Prof Schlemmer (academic) apparently wanted their identities and minority judgment disclosed, which is of course to be appreciated. Many if not all of the other six members (especially the three that have recently been appointed) have clear personal/political agendas to protect Hlophe, and some have shown evidence of this in the past already. The fact that there are no judges among the majority would explain the poor quality of the &#039;judgment&#039; setting out the majority&#039;s reasons for not recommending a full scale enquiry. 

Kameraad Mhambi - Obviously the matter can be reviewed since clear irregularities can be pointed out pertaining to the lack of objectivity of members; or appealed on grounds of a clearly wrong interpretation of what would amount to gross misconduct (in fact, earlier the full JSC has already indicated that if the averments of either of both sides could be proved, it would amount to &#039;gross misconduct&#039;!). Precedent has been set by the matters where Hlophe took the CC judges and the JSC to court, which clearly indicates that the High Court would have jurisdiction to review the matter (or hear an appeal). The only question would be which Division of the High Court might have jurisdiction, probably Gauteng South (Jhb) - but, given the splits in the Gauteng South Court in the past, it is known that Hlophe enjoys much support in that Division. The chances of success might therefore be around 50/50. If it goes to the SCA after that, the chances are however much better that the JSC&#039;s decision would be overturned.

However, one must ask oneself the question whether &quot;die kool die sous werd is&quot;. Even if the JSC at the direction of the Court does conduct a full hearing and, even if it does in the end recommend impeachment, the problem will still remain: How can a majority of two thirds be attained in both houses of Parliament to impeach and secure the dismissal of Hlophe? Given the ANC&#039;s majority, and its clear inclination to promote party-politics (and partisanism among judges to further the cause of the majoritrty political party) rather than proper governance, independence of the judiciary and the Rule of Law, the chances are much less than average that Parliament would impeach Hlophe.

Seems like Hlophe JP, whose actions to approach Jaftha and Nkabinde in the Zuma Thint matters (which must be misconduct seeing that part of the matter emanated from Hlophe JP&#039;s own court) were described by the majority as &quot;unwise, ill-considered, imprudent, not thought through&quot; (in other words &#039;STUPID&#039;), is now allowed to again ascend the Bench in the Western Cape. Who wants a stupid (clearly not impartial and politically affiliated) judge to preside over their cases? Moreover, who among the Western Cape judges would appreciate being headed by such a JP? ... Banana Republic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to withdraw my misgivings as far as Bernard Ngoepe is concerned since he is reported to have been part of the minority group of four. Thanks Snowman and Kameraad Mhambi for the info. Lex Mpati, Bernard Ngoepe (both judges, both black &#8211; hence racism cannot be cried), Von Klemperer (an attorney); and Prof Schlemmer (academic) apparently wanted their identities and minority judgment disclosed, which is of course to be appreciated. Many if not all of the other six members (especially the three that have recently been appointed) have clear personal/political agendas to protect Hlophe, and some have shown evidence of this in the past already. The fact that there are no judges among the majority would explain the poor quality of the &#8216;judgment&#8217; setting out the majority&#8217;s reasons for not recommending a full scale enquiry. </p>
<p>Kameraad Mhambi &#8211; Obviously the matter can be reviewed since clear irregularities can be pointed out pertaining to the lack of objectivity of members; or appealed on grounds of a clearly wrong interpretation of what would amount to gross misconduct (in fact, earlier the full JSC has already indicated that if the averments of either of both sides could be proved, it would amount to &#8216;gross misconduct&#8217;!). Precedent has been set by the matters where Hlophe took the CC judges and the JSC to court, which clearly indicates that the High Court would have jurisdiction to review the matter (or hear an appeal). The only question would be which Division of the High Court might have jurisdiction, probably Gauteng South (Jhb) &#8211; but, given the splits in the Gauteng South Court in the past, it is known that Hlophe enjoys much support in that Division. The chances of success might therefore be around 50/50. If it goes to the SCA after that, the chances are however much better that the JSC&#8217;s decision would be overturned.</p>
<p>However, one must ask oneself the question whether &#8220;die kool die sous werd is&#8221;. Even if the JSC at the direction of the Court does conduct a full hearing and, even if it does in the end recommend impeachment, the problem will still remain: How can a majority of two thirds be attained in both houses of Parliament to impeach and secure the dismissal of Hlophe? Given the ANC&#8217;s majority, and its clear inclination to promote party-politics (and partisanism among judges to further the cause of the majoritrty political party) rather than proper governance, independence of the judiciary and the Rule of Law, the chances are much less than average that Parliament would impeach Hlophe.</p>
<p>Seems like Hlophe JP, whose actions to approach Jaftha and Nkabinde in the Zuma Thint matters (which must be misconduct seeing that part of the matter emanated from Hlophe JP&#8217;s own court) were described by the majority as &#8220;unwise, ill-considered, imprudent, not thought through&#8221; (in other words &#8216;STUPID&#8217;), is now allowed to again ascend the Bench in the Western Cape. Who wants a stupid (clearly not impartial and politically affiliated) judge to preside over their cases? Moreover, who among the Western Cape judges would appreciate being headed by such a JP? &#8230; Banana Republic?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/a-sad-day-for-our-judiciary-and-the-jsc/#comment-17604</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1387#comment-17604</guid>
		<description>The JSC are for the most part a cowardly and disreputable set. To think that in addition to having the gall to base its finding on such a shabby foundation, the majority may have effectively suppressed the minority decision. Plainly, the JSC is a part of the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The JSC are for the most part a cowardly and disreputable set. To think that in addition to having the gall to base its finding on such a shabby foundation, the majority may have effectively suppressed the minority decision. Plainly, the JSC is a part of the problem.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
