Constitutional Hill

Affirmative action judgment might be wrong

For some middle class South Africans affirmative action is the single most pressing concern in their lives. It is therefore a pity that a recent affirmative action judgment from the Labour Appeal Court fails to provide clear guidance on the legal limits of affirmative action measures in the workplace. The judgment ignores the Constitutional Court’s affirmative action jurisprudence, and is disappointingly incoherent.

Forget about widespread hunger and unemployment; police brutality, torture and even murder; endemic misogyny, homophobia, racism and xenophobia; an education system that condemns the majority of South Africans to a life without any meaningful opportunities; or even ever increasing corruption and abuse of power by the rapacious political and business elite. Instead of focusing on these shocking problems, some middle class South Africans (who are mostly, but not exclusively, white) focus obsessively on affirmative action, which they seem to view as the greatest injustice perpetrated in modern day South Africa.

This group firmly believes that affirmative action “punishes” so called “innocent” young whites, whose relative privilege has absolutely nothing – nothing, I tell you – to do with apartheid and the concomitant privileges their parents or grandparents reaped at the expense of black South Africans. They would like us to believe that their parents all worked very hard for their money (and some must have worked almost as hard as the black people who dug up the gold, tilled the fields and built the roads – at a pittance of the pay of their white bosses). They tell us that their parents and grandparents were not advantaged in any way, despite the fact that they never had to compete with the overwhelming majority of South Africans for access to educational opportunities, jobs and property.

Most of us who do not leave comments on the News24 website (and mostly avoid reading those comments in order to retain our sanity), know that this fantasy has nothing to do with reality. We know that it has everything to do with a delusional and self-justificatory avoidance of reality, based on either a deeply sublimated sense of guilt about the fact that all white people benefited from apartheid and that most did little to overthrow the regime that enforced it (voting for the PFP, donating old clothes to the women working in your house and once helping out at a soup kitchen in a township do not really count), or a sense of entitlement that springs from the deeply embedded but often unacknowledged sense of cultural and racial superiority.

It is therefore very difficult to have a sensible and nuanced discussion in South Africa about affirmative action and its constitutionally mandated limits. But in my view it is important to have such a discussion. How else will one be able to mount a plausible and necessary defence of race-based affirmative action while pointing out that support for structured, principled, race-based affirmative action must not be confused with support for the corrupt or nepotistic abuse of affirmative action by racial essentialists?

It is in this context that I wish to explore the potential weaknesses of the Labour Appeal Court judgment of judge Mlambo (judges Davis and Jappie concurring) in South African Police Services v Solidarity.

The Labour Court had previously found that Mrs Barnard had been discriminated against in contravention of section 6(1) of the Employment Equity Act because on two occasions she was not promoted despite the fact that she was recommended for the job and in both cases the post was not filled.

In the lower court, it was established that where a post could not be filled due to the paucity of suitable candidates from an underrepresented category, promotion to a post should not ordinarily and in the absence of a clear and satisfactory explanation be denied to a suitably qualified candidate from another group. This finding was based on a reading of section 6(2) of the Act (which confirms that it would not be discriminatory to take affirmative action measures in the workplace), read with section 15(3) of the Act (which states that affirmative action measures could include preferential treatment and numerical goals, but had to exclude the imposition of rigid quotas).

The lower court ruling did not prohibit an institution from implementing affirmative action measures which reserved targeted posts for designated groups (as Woolworths had done recently). Neither did it prohibit an employer from ever leaving a post open instead of appointing a white candidate. It did find that in the absence of a good explanation to justify its decision, a blanket refusal to promote a white candidate even where no suitably qualified black candidates were available for appointment would not comply with the Employment Equity Act, read with the right to equality in the Constitution.

The lower court’s flexible pro-affirmative action stance, seems about right.

Nevertheless the Labour Appeal Court seemed to have rejected this general approach, perhaps because it second-guessed the appointments panel and the National Commissioner who had all decided not to appoint anyone to the position. Because the court turned a factual disagreement into a legal one, it made bad law. That is perhaps why the re-interpretation of the facts led the court to a rather absolutist view on affirmative action which cannot easily be squared with the Constitutional Court jurisprudence on the matter.

The Labour Appeal Court correctly emphasised the fact that affirmative action was not an exception to equality but a requirement for its achievement, stating that:

our Constitution, and in particular section 9 thereof, read as a whole, embraces for good reason a substantive conception of equality inclusive of measures to redress existing inequality. Absent a positive commitment progressively to eradicate socially constructed barriers to equality and to root out systematic or institutionalised under-privilege, the constitutional promise of equality before the law and its equal protection and benefit must, in the context of our country, ring hollow.

However, disappointingly, the Labour Appeal Court took a rather stark and simplistic view of the limits of affirmative action by arguing that the “implementation of restitutionary measures cannot be made subject to an individual’s right to equality” as this would defeat the very purpose of having restitutionary measures in the first place. It seemed to suggest – quite wrongly, in my view – that if a court demonstrated any concern for those excluded from the benefits of affirmative action measures, a court would always have to find that those measures “fall short” of the demands of non-discrimination, “due to the reality that there will always be adverse effects on persons from non-designated groups” and would have to nullify the affirmative action measures.

The judgment criticised the lower court because Mlambo mischaracterised that court’s decision as one in which the prohibition on non-discrimination would always trump the need for structured affirmative action measures. But this is not what the lower court actually held. Instead the lower court had held – in line with the Constitutional Court jurisprudence – that a balance must always be struck between the various interests at stake in affirmative action cases.

On the one hand, one could not have too strict a test for affirmative action as this would derail well devised and targeted affirmative action measures aimed at transforming the workplace. On the other hand, affirmative action measures which in effect placed an absolute bar on the appointment or promotion of all white candidates in the workplace would diminish the human dignity of white applicants and would not be constitutionally permissible.

The Constitutional Court struck this balance by developing a specific test for valid affirmative action programmes. This test developed by the Constitutional Court does not completely ignore the interests of those who were not benefiting from an affirmative action programme. Yet the Labour Appeal Court ignored this jurisprudence and suggested that a court must choose: either it must always invalidate affirmative action measures because these would be found to be discriminatory, or such measures must always be deemed legal – no matter how harsh and permanent the effect of the measures on the previously advantaged might be.

For the Appeal Court there seemed to be no middle ground. But this approach cannot be squared with the Constitutional Court’s jurisprudence on affirmative action and I would not be surprised if that court overturns this decision.

The Constitutional Court has stated on several occasions that when one is dealing with a structured affirmative action programme one would first ask whether such a programme constituted an abuse of power or imposed such substantial and undue harm on those excluded from its benefits that our long-term constitutional goal would be threatened. Impose rigid quotas would do exactly that. This test strikes the balance between recognising the need for targeted affirmative action measures while also recognising that the measures could not permanently exclude white people from advancement in the workplace.

The problem with the judgment of the Labour Appeal Court is that it failed to deal with this jurisprudence. Instead it questioned the decision of the authorities not to appoint any of the black applicants “who were by all accounts appointable”. It found that the black candidates had an unquestionable claim to be appointed over Barnard in keeping with the Employment Equity Plan.

It cannot be argued on the facts of this matter that the appellant’s Employment Equity Plan seeks the appointment of only black employees irrespective of other criteria. One of the criteria set out in the plan is the suitability of candidates. That to me suggests that should a black candidate be unsuitable that candidate will not be appointed. This is also defined in National Instruction 1. Clearly, as was aptly argued by counsel for the amicus, the Employment Equity Plan does not sanction mediocrity or incompetence. Manifestly this was not the case with the two black candidates in this case.

I would guess that the Labour Appeal Court’s re-interpretation of the facts stood in the way of a legally sound judgment, forcing it to develop affirmative action jurisprudence that cannot be squared with the affirmative action jurisprudence of the Constitutional Court.

It must be said that if the Labour Appeal Court’s view of the facts are correct and if one or more of the black applicants were indeed appointable and should indeed have been appointed, then Mrs Barnard would not have a legal leg to stand on. This is because where a black candidate is appointable and when that appointment would advance the numerical goals of an affirmative action policy, then there could not be any legal problem with an employer selecting the appointable black candidate over the white candidate who might have better qualifications on paper.

A problem will only arise when the employer refuses to appoint a white candidate in the absence of any appointable black candidates and where the employer has no valid justification for this refusal to appoint the suitably qualified applicant.

The problem in this case was that for reasons that are unclear, no one wanted to appoint the black applicants to the post for which Barnard applied. The original interviewing panel stated that to appoint the black candidates would compromise service delivery. They left the position open, instead of appointing Barnard. The Labour Appeals Court obviously disagreed with this assessment but it is unclear on what basis they did so. To get around the problem, it second-guessed the Police Commissioner and developed affirmative action jurisprudence that cannot be squared with the more nuanced approach taken by the Constitutional Court.

  • Deloris Dolittle

    Apart from the paragraphs starting with “Forget about widespread hunger …” and ending with “affirmative action by racial essentialists? a very interesting ang informative article.

    Could you not have just written the piece without those paragraphs. It really detracts form the quality of the piece. And by the way, how do you know for a fact that the following is true: ”

    Instead of focusing on these shocking problems, some middle class South Africans (who are mostly, but not exclusively, white) focus obsessively on affirmative action, which they seem to view as the greatest injustice perpetrated in modern day South Africa.”

    How do you know this is the only thing this group (and who exactly does this group include?) care and or obsess about? Like I said, the piece could have done without that nonsense.

  • camilla jones

    I left South Africa, my hpome in 2009, because of crime and the lack of job oppertunities, I now work at an auxiliary nurse for the NHS, at least I can pay my rent and put food on the table and be free.

  • Thabo Botha

    LIE number 1:

    “Instead of focusing on these shocking problems, some middle class South Africans (who are mostly, but not exclusively, white)”

    http://www.regiodata.eu/en/south-africa-rise-black-middle-class

    “Around 3 million people currently belong to the black middle class.” (2009)

    According to the latest census there are only 4.5 mil white people in South Africa.

  • Thabo Botha

    “This group firmly believes that affirmative action “punishes” so called “innocent” young whites, whose relative privilege has absolutely nothing – nothing, I tell you – to do with apartheid and the concomitant privileges their parents or grandparents reaped at the expense of black South Africans.”

    The same author but on a different thread:

    “If we assume that some strikers were responsible for the killings, this does not make the strike criminal, as our law does not recognise the notion of collective criminal guilt. Just as every member of the ANC is not a criminal because one of its members committed murder, every striking miner is not a criminal because one of its members committed murder.”

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/are-defenders-of-ramaphosa-defending-formalised-corruption/

  • Vuyo

    The LAC is right. The reality is that structural inequities CAUSED by apartheid and perpetuated (post 1994) by economic apartheid would result in posts, more often than not being filled by the appropriate AA candidate. The flexible approach would lead to those positions being filled-up by “qualified” whites. You seem not to understand the malice of (mostly) white capital and its surrogates, the (mostly) white middle class. In fact, stats routinely show that AA legislation is ignored by MOST companies. Any honest private sector commercial lawyer will tell you that most SMME’s do not care about AA or BEE, and are routine offenders of these laws. In my experience, (mostly) white directors of companies appoint their unqualified kids, uncles, the recent fiancé, etc as directors and pay them ridiculous remuneration (tax deductible), pay no normal tax (assessed loss, you see), sell the company to an IDC funded black partner, who then is stuck with legacy issues (the company normally collapses afterwards, due to legacy issues, the darkie is blamed, the former owner then buys back the asset at a discount. See the article on 1time on moneyweb for example).
    The solution to the economic liberation of the (mostly black) poor is not a flexible approach to AA but a rigorous approach (e.g. expropriation of the offending entities assets, etc). Cancer can’t be cured by grandpa powder, you see. An even better solution is to eschew solutions that depend on the free market system and rather abolish the free market system in toto (or partly). If all assets are collectively owned, then there’s no need for AA or BEE. Since the forces of evil (Rand-ian capitalists, Romney, the DA, neoliberals, their surrogates, Helen, etc) have been let lose upon us, it is likely not possible to pursue such a policy (especially since the so-called forces of the left, like SACP and cosatu, are under control of big business and reactionaries); then a rigorous enforcement of AA must be preferred to the more watered down approach that you support Pierre. The impact on those affected is in any event negligible relative to the benefits they derive from their apartheid era largesse).

  • Vuyo

    @Thabo Botha, a middle class is not defined by salaries, but by control of actual assets (bonds, equities, knowledge, etc). As Macozoma once said, most of the so-called black middle class are a salary away from poverty. Not so for whites…

  • Thabo Botha

    “For some middle class South Africans affirmative action is the single most pressing concern in their lives.”

    No shit sherlock. Finding a job to feed your family or trying to plan the future of your children is a trivial pursuit that middle-aged white academics who benefited most from Apartheid apparently do not have to contend with.

  • Vuyo

    @Thabo Botha says:
    November 6, 2012 at 13:22 pm

    If a poll was done to show how many whites in fact believe “that affirmative action “punishes” so called “innocent” young whites, whose relative privilege has absolutely nothing – nothing, I tell you – to do with apartheid”, the result would likely equate with the number of whites who vote for the DA (i.e. more than 90%). So the likelihood of the collective guilt of the Marikana workers relative to the very high liklihood of whites sharing this view favours Pierre’s group attribution.

  • Thabo Botha

    Vuyo
    November 6, 2012 at 13:29 pm

    I’m sorry but that is just more apologetic rubbish. Where are the facts to back that up?

    Nothing stops the black middle class from investing or gaining “knowledge”.

  • Vuyo

    @Thabo,
    Tell that to the young indebted black diamond who wants to do his MBA, M.Eng or LLM whilst contending with the costs (i.e. debt) of supporting an extended family of about twenty (uneducated and broke cause of legacy issues from apartheid) , has had to pay an arm and a leg to live close to work (cause home is about forty KMs away, cause of group areas act, etc), is paying an arm and a leg for a depreciating car (no such inheritance for blacks, in the form of mums old car). Whites from day one have benefits from apartheid to use as a hand up, and deny it when its shown to them.

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Seven out of nine comments on this post are just as bad as those on News24!

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Sorry, another comment came in while I was reading – make it eight out of ten.

  • Sarge

    ….4,5 million whites, competing with 45 million blacks for the limited jobs available, now we should let our children starve so as to right the wrongs of the past?? oh, ok….

  • Thabo Botha

    Vuyo
    November 6, 2012 at 13:41 pm

    “@Thabo,
    Tell that to the young indebted black diamond who wants to do his MBA, M.Eng or LLM whilst contending with the costs (i.e. debt) of supporting an extended family of about twenty (uneducated and broke cause of legacy issues from apartheid)”

    LOL. Yes I have noticed the terrible suffering of those poor “indebted black diamonds” driving only the most expensive cars, living in the most expensive suburbs (like Sandton), going to most expensive night clubs and wearing only the most expensive clothes as they fight the for “economic freedom”.

    “I am angry about an article I read in a past issue of Grahamstown’s Grocott’s Mail that talks of Rhodes University students downing shots of Johnnie Walker Blue as if they are drinking water, and doing it in rounds. The students even throw R200 notes at each other in mock paper battles. The relevance of this is that Grahamstown is as poor as Christiana, yet our students can afford such crassness. This is not peculiar to Rhodes University; it is evident in the “Ivy League” universities such as the University of Cape Town, Wits University and, to a lesser extent, the University of KwaZulu-Natal. These students, black and white, quaff expensive drinks with an insolence that says: “So what?””

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/articles/2012/07/25/thami-mazwai-why-do-we-still-thumb-our-noses-at-poverty

  • Zagrijs

    Like Pierre, several of the people who commented here made sweeping statements about whites, their attitude towards AA and BEE, their presumed “wealth”, etc. Not a single one made statements based on reliable statistics. It is simply stereotyping and statements of how easily whites have it are made by people who probably don’t have any close white friends.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Vuyo

    Blacks don’t have it any easier or harder than anyone else. Almost all of us work with debt in our lives. Some handle it better than others.

    Race has nothing to do with that. So your characterization of particular “black” suffering is nothing of the sort. Everyone faces those challenges. The only ones who don’t are tiny few who inherit vast fortunes, maybe 0.000001% of the population.

    The Professor’s article was fine except for his obligatory anti-white sentiment which made no sense.

  • Thabo Botha

    Zagrijs
    November 6, 2012 at 14:21 pm

    Nor does any of them ask some more relative questions. Such as how are such a tiny minority supposed to “affirm” so many. What are the affirmed black people who now exceed the number of middle class whites doing to affirm others? What value are they creating so that there are more opportunities for everybody. Note for example yet another endless list of apologies and excuses from poster Voyo:

    “Any honest private sector commercial lawyer will tell you that most SMME’s do not care about AA or BEE, and are routine offenders of these laws. In my experience, (mostly) white directors of companies appoint their unqualified kids, uncles, the recent fiancé, etc as directors and pay them ridiculous remuneration (tax deductible), pay no normal tax (assessed loss, you see), sell the company to an IDC funded black partner, who then is stuck with legacy issues (the company normally collapses afterwards, due to legacy issues, the darkie is blamed, the former owner then buys back the asset at a discount. See the article on 1time on moneyweb for example).”

    So the white director got his SMME from whom – the IDC ?

    However in comes again the poor “black partner”, the perpetual and eternal victim who inexplicably cannot start a business by himself and even when being handed a business on a platter by government ends up again failing of course being victimised by an evil white man yet again.

    That is the recurring pattern. You don’t only see it here in South Africa, it is all over from Cape Town to Zim, to Luanda, to Kampala, to Kairo, to USA, to Trinidad, to Brazil and recently unfortunately imported into Cuba as well.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Prof

    C’mon man, how long is this AA/BEE farce going to continue?

    Census figures show a population of 4.5 million whites and 45 million blacks. About 60% of spending power is in the hands of blacks, so economic dominance is black.

    You see, the ridiculous notion behind this argument is that there is an assumption that we are still in 1994. Its like time has not moved on at all for you lot.

    The education system has been in the hands of the ANC for 18 years. In 1995 the ANC educated its first pre-primary children, so we are about to graduate the 8th generation of 100% ANC educated children.

    Of course, since 1995 the rest of the school population has been educated by the ANC. Even if you discount the first 4 years in a massive donation of charity to the ANC, that’s 14 generations of school that have left under the auspices of the ANC.

    Education playing field has been theoretically level for at least 14-15 years. If they are not level, that is not the fault of some whitey or Apartheid. There has never been a shortage of money, so resource constraints do not exist as a result of Apartheid.

    Yet, the census reveals massive failures of black education whilst whites, coloureds, Indians and Chinese race ahead.

    Mathematically, AA makes no sense in 2012. With only 4.5 million whites, the economically active being about 1.5 million, if you replace all their jobs with blacks that’s 1.5 million job swopped, not created. All you’ve done is swop the colour of the poor face at the car door. Of course, some of those whites may be highly skilled so what have you replaced them with?

    AA/BEE was fine for 15 years. That was more than enough time to break down barriers and change the workplace environment. In the private sector people are only concerned about whether the candidate can do the job, if he or she is black or white no one actually cares, least of the the shareholders or bosses. They want productivity and profits.

    And another thing, a teacher friend of mine has told me how many, many black ex-pupils have returned their school colours because they don’t know if they deserved them. AA undermines a person’s dignity because the recipient can never be sure of their own self-worth. How ironic is that?

  • Uhm

    Affirmative action and BEE is based on a flawed premise, being that were it not for Apartheid, poverty, inequality and unemployment would not exist or be a whole lot less. The role apartheid played in the plight of the majority of people in South Africa, is being exaggerated.

    I think the emotional pain caused by apartheid is being used as a scapegoat for many challenges that have nothing to do with it.

    Now say 80 years along the line, BEE and AA intact and enforced the entire time, and the plight of the people still hasn’t changed, what do you think the reaction of the people will be if we change to a pure merit system ? The sense of entitlement (as existed among whites in the Apartheid era), that is constantly perpetuated by the ANC, will have become the norm, and taking away a job, or tenders and and and, will leave a lot of people feeling hard done.

    I see a bad moon rising.

  • Vuyo

    @Thabo Botha
    Nobody asked for affirmation from whites, at best some of us just want whites to admit or at least acknowledge that possibly, just maybe there is a chance (even say a 0.000001% or less chance) that they may have benefited from apartheid, and from that benefit that they just may by some chance (even say of less 0.00000000001%) still be deriving legacy benefits. Conversely, that there’s a chance (of perhaps 0.1%) that blacks still face some negative consequences as a result of apartheid, and its not just the fault of the thieving black, communist, corrupt, Julius Malema, etc, government, etc.
    Besides that, some of us just want THE LAW OF THE LAND (including the law about AA and BEE, etc) to be enforced rigorously and in a substantive manner. We are simply constitutionalists…

  • Vuyo

    @Uhm,
    Are you some form of prophet?

  • Thabo Botha

    Uhm
    November 6, 2012 at 15:05 pm

    Being a really trendy “white liberal” I also supported race-based AA/BEE back in 1994. It is 20 years down the line now and it has done very little to alleviate the structural problems that Vuyo alluded too. The point is it was never designed for that. It was designed to promote blacks into the middle class to counter any “revolutionary” momentum amongst the impoverished masses.

    The ANC sold out anyway, there is no chance of us ever getting near a socialist system with capitalist/nationalists steering the boat – but whatever has been achieved in terms of racial “transformation” with the black middle class now being considerably larger than the white middle class has reached its ceiling.

    This unfortunately is a fact.

  • Beetle

    Vuyo Nov 6, 13 41
    So the black diamond/ miner has to support an unemployed, uneducated extended family of 20?
    The ANC has been in power for 18 years. In that time -was the subsequent trashing of the education system, the hospitals, the trade schools, teachers colleges, and nursing colleges, the fault of whites?? Was the lack of service delivery Apartheids fault? Is the criminal indifference of black teachers/ SADTU a white caused problem?
    If that extended family had 8 amongst it’s 20 members working as welders/ mechanics/ boilermakers/ fitters/ carpenters/ plumbers in potential self employment such a group could cope better financially. Even more so if the government provides them with a few houses which I as a taxpayer help fund.

    Its the ANC who let black people down.
    It has screwed up black education and thus prevented the growth of vibrant young workers/entrepeneurs with a vision of and the potential of self employment.

  • spoiler

    ZK and TB I agree with much of what you say- Vuyo’s comment that only blacks are one salary away from poverty beggars belief. Vuyo, come and see my debt burden, the father without a pension I had to fund using my bond to build him a small timber frame cottage to rent out, the sister I have had to lend money to etc etc. I am very much in the same category as that you reserve for blacks only. Its a middle class thing. I am quite happy to give away some of my debt to anyone who will take it… :-)

  • Graham

    Pierre, your first three paragraphs almost moved me to tears – until a wave of nausea got in the way; you sanctimonious twit.

    “How else will one be able to mount a plausible and necessary defence of race-based affirmative action …..”
    But we had race-based affirmative action previously. It was called apartheid and you claim never to have supported it. Why then do you support it now?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Graham has a very good point Professor.

    What is the difference between AA and Job Reservation?

    Can you put your money where your mouth is and distinguish them?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    There we go. Censorship yet again. Just like clockwork. Nobody said anything abusive on this thread but obviously certain things should not be said at all.

  • Ozone Blue

    Obviously a block on IP.

  • Racism is racism, begets racism!

    Yep, surely ANY racism is an injustice? Even if experienced by a whitish male.

    Your views do not reconcile Prof..

    And yes from experience I can say being a middle aged whitish male, it is becoming more and more difficult not to be focussing obsessively on affirmative action. Same way as I focussed obsessively on apartheid as a student back in the 1980’s. Same racism, same disgust, different colour, own experience..

    Maybe racism does not rate up there in importance with the other injustices like “unemployment; police brutality, torture; murder; endemic misogyny, homophobia, and xenophobia” but just like you will find it difficult to convince me that torture by apartheid police in 1976 was more of an injustice than torture by the non-apartheid police in 2012. Similarly you will find it difficult to convince me that racism in any shape and form can be justified in the current South Africa.

    The reality is that these racist AA & BEE policies will henceforth have the opposite effect to what was intended. We only need to look around us to see it happening. White South Africans are turning more and more racist and protectionist by the day. Myself included. The social pact that we had in 1994 has been all but obliterated.

    Racism is racism, begets racism.

    Vuyo, catch a wake up about the real state of the financial affairs of us “rich” whites. You can’t milk us anymore and certainly would prefer not to distribute our debt.

    http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-economic-trends/south-africans-and-debt–its-worse-than-it-seems

  • Gwebecimele

    How does living a job vacant improve service delivery? I support this judgement and I hope those capable blacks who are overlooked can sue the employer via unions.

  • Gwebecimele

    Where is this white poverty? Apart from apartheid gains you still earn six times more than blacks?

  • Paul Kearney

    Ouch PDoffy must either be trying to ingratiate himself with the UCT chapter of the ANCYL (did they win that SRC election after all the DA dust cleared?) or he’s been re-reading his Dr Goebbels speeches again. The legal part that is interesting was probably written by a student. Definite News24 stuff. “Prof” do you understand the word “principal” as in “wrong in”?

    Graham and Thabo Botha’s first comments hit the pimple on the head.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Vuyo

    “The flexible approach would lead to those positions being filled-up by “qualified” whites”

    Vuyo is right. We see right through the WHITISH chants that appointing blacks would undermine service delivery. The fact that an African person does not have a fancy degree from Oxford or Yale of MIT does not stop him from laying pipes to provide water reticulation to our people. My demand is that in those few instances in which there are REALLY no African available, the jobs must be outsourced to African companies who can, if they must, employ WHITISH engineers ad hoc at very low rates!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Gwebes

    Please don’t quote stats out of context?

  • Racism is racism, begets racism!

    For all but a few whites poverty is also only one paycheck away. Maybe two.

    Give the job to the best person for the job. It is the only chance for sustainable Win Win for all of us as a country. Looking past our racist tendencies. We are not competing with ourselves. We are competing against the rest of the world for limited financial resources. As with any business, as a country, we cannot afford to make too many mistakes. Going bankrupt and having more people in poverty is only one bad decision away for most of us..?

  • Andrew

    Sarge says:
    November 6, 2012 at 14:00 pm

    Sarge assuming that white kids are dying due to AA consider that according to some reports, white unemployment is below 6%, so you will have to demonstrate that this level of unemployment is due to AA. (In USA it is at 7-8% and Spain about 15-25%)

    Zoo Keeper says:
    November 6, 2012 at 14:44 pm

    The contribution by Vuyo on the challenges facing an educated black person is real.

    There is a saying that the R20k of a black man is less than that of a white man as most black people who ‘made it’ are expected to support an extended family.

    In the final analysis, the solution to most of the problems of the black man will be solved by receiving a good education as a first requirement.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Racism is Racism

    “For all but a few whites poverty is also only one paycheck away. Maybe two.”

    Racism is racism is right. True, there are a few million whites who own their own homes. But the way the property market is these days, even a mid-size Randburg house won’t buy much more than 60 days of Woolies food! After two months, all whites, except perhaps Christo Wiese, would have nothing to eat!

    Thanks.

  • Uhm

    Vuyo
    November 6, 2012 at 15:27 pm

    Nope, I speculate just like you do. Both of us speculate about the extent to which the legacy of Apartheid still benefits whites and works to the disadvantage of blacks.

    And in the same way you would like an admission from whites that Apartheid might just have given them a head-start, a lot of whites would like some sort of admission that Apartheid takes a bit too much of the credit for the countries current situation.

    If only the ANC could fill all the empty promises with all the blame shifted, we would have a viable solution to all our problems.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hayibo!

    White people are angry, ne!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDxOSjgl5Z4

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Lol. Still getting blocked on IP. Posting from portable device.

    PdV the ultimate Broederbond Apartheid beneficiary. You are a coward my man. As I challenged you before please resign your priveleged job cause by your good example we ‘dumb’ whites shall follow.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @gwebs

    Instead of hammering on the guilt trip and insisting on your racist revenge.

    Where are the new jobs/businesses you 3 million middle/upper class blacks are supposed to be creating?

    Im still waiting.

  • Geoff Moseley

    This is an excellent first draft: it’s full of detail but lacks context. The final draft should put it all in context and remove the legalese. I’m afraid what I suspect is an excellent article is marred by the fact I’m bored to tears.

  • Brett Nortje

    Andrew says:
    November 6, 2012 at 18:20 pm

    Whose fault is it the black population tripled between 1978 and 2010?

  • Brett Nortje

    Whose taxes were being used to pay for Bantu Education? Need I remind you that taxspend on black education exceeded taxspend on white education by the 1970s, and, as it turns out, that tax spent on Bantu Education turns out to be far more efficiently used turning out better product than education today?

    “to compete with the overwhelming majority of South Africans for access to educational opportunities”???

  • Brett Nortje

    Really? Not from being under pressure of constant racial mobilisation as you other progressives and the ANC rewrite fact into myth all aimed self-justification and at building alibis for corruption murder and maladministration?

    Tell me, who stopped the supply of housing, services and damn near education to black communities during the 80s?

    “We know that it has everything to do with a delusional and self-justificatory avoidance of reality, based on either a deeply sublimated sense of guilt about the fact that all white people benefited from apartheid”

  • Brett Nortje

    Really? What were you doing while we were working for the PFP turning up at the odd protest march writing letters to newspapers bombarding government with petitions dodging conscription etc?

    OH! We never believed in violence, so it does not count.

    Wanker!

    “(voting for the PFP, donating old clothes to the women working in your house and once helping out at a soup kitchen in a township do not really count)”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Geoff

    “I am afraid what I suspect is an excellent article is marred by the fact I’m bored to tears.”

    With respect, Geoff, your tears of tedium shows only that you fail to grasp why this is such an important issue for the future of South Africa. Dmwangi, can you recommend some readings to help get poor Geoff up to speed?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 20:46 pm

    Hayibo G,

    “Whose fault is it the black population tripled between 1978 and 2010?”

    WHITE people had hobbies like golf, tennis, braais … while we were busy doing what humans do best!

  • Brett Nortje

    I must say, the beautifully succinct exposition of the Law of Affirmative Action is exactly what we expect from Pierre De Vos Constitutional Law expert.

    Really worth saving to ones harddrive. And sommer flash stick.

    I am forced to respectfully submit that Judges Mlambo and Davis appear completely out of their depth.

    Boy, did they get it wrong this time! The JSC are really turning the third branch of government into a travesty.

    P.s. The above was just for context!

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 20:52 pm

    LOL G,

    “Whose taxes were being used to pay for Bantu Education?”

    I shall set Dmwangi on you to teach you some “economics”!

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    November 6, 2012 at 21:06 pm

    Ah! You’re black again! I was worried for a couple of days, bud.

  • Brett Nortje

    Since that idiot Vuyo raised the issue is no-one going to suggest we audit AA and its colateral damage?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 21:11 pm

    G,

    “Ah! You’re black again! I was worried for a couple of days, bud.”

    I am like Henry Ford said …

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “Whose fault is it the black population tripled between 1978 and 2010?”

    Maggs, now I understand why Brett took the courageous step of telling his kerk that apartheid was UNCHRISTIAN. It was because the Nat government failed to curb the sin of incessant black-on-black copulation!

    Am I right, Brett?

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 21:12 pm

    How do you feel about “Constitutional Expert” PdV censoring/blocking certain posters?

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    November 6, 2012 at 21:09 pm

    The point is: SFW if my mom and dad’s generation were privileged? They paid it forward and a lot of that privilege was distinctly destined to uplift black people. Whose fault is it that a lot of that aid was syphoned off by homel;and chiefs and, later, cadres?

    Take some responsibility for a change!

    Sheez, could Pierrot be more economically illiterate if he tried?

  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    November 6, 2012 at 21:22 pm

    Ek dink jy is verkeerd. Ek het hom ook in die verlede van sensorskap beskuldig en later om verskoning moes vra. Hy is meer beginselvas as dit.

    Miskien die spamfilter? Bandwidth is altyd ‘n probleem met hierdie blog.

  • Brett Nortje

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    November 6, 2012 at 21:20 pm

    The rebbe who was supposed to bris you must have dropped you on your head.

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 21:12 pm

    You didn’t enjoy gwebs/vuyos endless list of excuses. Andrew chipping in sounding like the stereotypical “white liberal” as biko would put it” limp wristed , apologetic, always looking for more excuses as the patronises the natives into feeling more sorry for themselves. Yet when you drive around in Sandton/Randburg/Soweto you see these buppie types everywhere out on massive consumption, in the most outrageous expensive cars, wearing the most expensive shit and generally acting like cunts – even kill a couple of school kids while they are high on booze and cocaine. Pissed out of their skull. We must still feel sorry for them you know, so much suffering, so much extended family, so hard to be a black man in Africa.

    But where is the economic growth, where are the jobs – where are the contribution to our economy from the 1994-2012 created 3 million middle/upper class blacks?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 21:24 pm

    Hey G,

    “The point is: SFW if my mom and dad’s generation were privileged?”

    Good point!

    SFW if there are the goings on which you are moaning about now?

  • Brett Nortje

    Nooooo, Magass! You’re veering off-logic again. You have to get over this distatse of ‘privilege’. It is so last Century.

    Don’t you want every South African to have the ‘privileges’ you did?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 22:44 pm

    Hey G,

    “Don’t you want every South African to have the ‘privileges’ you did?”

    No.

    Only WHITE people should have those “privileges” which I did.

    Would you like a list of some of those privileges?

  • Brett Nortje

    Not particularly – I’m the least materialistic person you’ve ever seen and will hardly be impressed by your list of privileges.

  • John Roberts

    Hey Maggs Naidu

    I see you got an honourable mention from Pierre.

    Admit it… you’ve been posting comments on news24.com haven’t you ?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Hey JR,

    What you on about, dude?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 6, 2012 at 23:07 pm

    Hey G,

    Here’s one privilege – I was not obliged to swim with W…. people – WDYSTT?

    http://africanhistory.about.com/od/apartheid/ig/Apartheid-Signs-Image-Gallery/White-Area.htm

  • Geoff Moseley

    @ Mikhail

    Please don’t patronise me. You missed my point. I’m not bored by the topic because it is clearly important. I was bored by the style of the article. Living in London I have no idea what the background to this story is. Had it been in context and written more for a layman than a lawyer, I wouldn’t have had to struggle so hard to work out what the author was on about. It was a criticism of style, not content.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!
    November 6, 2012 at 23:19 pm

    History can teach as a lot of things if we choose to take off our ideological blinkers.

    “As the ANC celebrates its 100-year anniversary, it seems everything needs to correlate to South Africa’s experiences of a century ago, so here goes. “Between 1890 and 1939 the most burning political issue was the existence of a large white underclass consisting mainly of Afrikaners. On the farms most of the bywoners and tenants had outlived their usefulness and now represented a rural proletariat, passively rotting away. In the cities and towns the poor lived on the periphery of white society. They were barely literate, had few skills and were often unemployed or unemployable,” says Hermann Giliomee in The Afrikaners.”

    http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-01-10-recruitment-advice-to-malema-start-with-poor-whites

    Both my parents were pretty fucking far from “privileged” either. They grew up just next to Sophiatown in poor “extended” families of eight or more.

  • Jared van Niekerk

    Die totale snert in die eerste paragrawe kan net so gebruik gewees het om apartheid te regverdig.

    Dit is lagwekkend hoe, wanneer blankes rassisties optree, linksetjies soos die skrywer mal raak van skuim-om-die-mond woede, maar as swartes skreiende rassisme soos RA pleeg, dit kwansuis “geregverdig” sou wees.

    Nee, wat. Rassisme bly rassisme, al wil linkse gillers nie hoor dat swartes dit ook pleeg nie.

  • Icarus Bohler

    I am wanting to publish a synopsis of this article in Legalbrief Today. I would like to include a link to the judgment, but am unable to find it. Please could you forward it to me ASAP.
    Thanks

  • Blue Ozone

    “We know that it has everything to do with a delusional and self-justificatory avoidance of reality, based on either a deeply sublimated sense of guilt about the fact that all white people benefited”

    But I maintain that the 3 mil black middle class has also benefited from Apartheid. They are quite happy to join, share the relative privileges of a modern, functioning “first world” infrastructure, political system, legal framework, and economy that saw Apartheid South Africa towering over of all its African neighbours – from Nigeria to Liberia, to Ethiopia to Zimbabwe, Swazlland. This kind “avoidance of reality” is so typical of the White liberal. And then they continue that same pattern of denial, unable or lets say rather unwilling to put their contemporary observations in it global geopolitical context.

    “Forget about widespread hunger and unemployment; police brutality, torture and even murder; endemic misogyny, homophobia, racism and xenophobia; an education system that condemns the majority of South Africans to a life without any meaningful opportunities; or even ever increasing corruption and abuse of power by the rapacious political and business elite.”

  • Blue Ozone

    So coming back to the really privileged whites like Max Price and PdV – when are you racist hypocrites also coming to the party?

    “PRESIDENT Jacob Zuma and Economic Development Minister Ebrahim Patel’s call for salaries of high-income earners to be frozen was criticised on Tuesday by corporate governance experts who warned it could lead to skills and capital flight.

    Mr Patel’s New Growth Path policy proposed salary and bonus caps for senior managers and executives earning more than R550,000 a year and on increases for people earning more than R20,000 a month.”

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/business/2012/11/07/zuma-pay-freeze-call-could-deter-skills-capital

    Or perhaps maybe bring your fair part on Affirmative Action?

    “The report found that at top management Africans represented only 18.5%, compared with 18.8% last year; coloureds 4.8% (3.9%); Indians 7.5% (6.1%); whites 65.4% (68.1%); and foreign nationals 3.9% (3.1%). The commission found that Africans at this level remained “grossly underrepresented” with the year-on-year decline a matter of grave concern.

    At senior management African representation rose over the year to 21.8% from 18.1%, coloureds from 6.1% to 7% and Indians from 8.2% to 9.6%, while white representation declined from 65.2% to 59.1%

    Among professionals, African representation rose year on year from 24.1% to 36.3%, coloureds from 8.5% to 10.2% and Indians from 8.7% to 9.1%, while white representation declined from 57.2% to 42.3%. Skilled technical Africans increased sharply, from 44.1% to 57%, while coloureds declined from 12.8% to 11.5%, Indians from 6.7% to 6.2% and whites from 35.6% to 24%.

    The commission noted the positive trends, for example among the skilled and professionally qualified, where equitable representation would be achieved “in the not so distant future if current progression patterns continue”. The same could not be said for senior and top management. Although whites accounted for the highest number of terminations at this level, they also accounted for the most number of recruitments and promotions””

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/labour/2012/09/11/report-laments-lack-of-progress-in-employment-equity

  • Gwebecimele

    JSC is correct. Fill in the vacancy, an empty bench does not deliver.

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/law/2012/11/07/jsc-doubts-gauntletts-humility

  • Gwebecimele

    Fransman did not say a word on Marikana or any of the mining strikes nor did he say anything about closing of schools in EC and KZN.

    See below.

    “ANC provincial leader Marius Fransman accused the DA’s agriculture MEC Gerrit van Rensburg of siding and meeting with the farmers, “not the disgruntled farm workers, and calls in helicopters for reinforcements to fight unarmed labourers”.

    “It is shocking that one of the most affluent and financially viable produce areas in our country are paying farm workers a pittance.… Workers seem not to share in the profits there for decades now and the situation became untenable,” said Mr Fransman.

    “Some time ago, the ANC again raised the importance of farmers and organised agriculture to stop discriminating against these workers. In this area, farm workers still feel the brunt of apartheid abuse on farms,” he said.”

  • Blue Ozone

    LOL.

    I agree gwebs.

    The last thing we want from officials to “improve service delivery” is “excellence” and “experience”. Just as with our new Commissioner of Police and the highly “transformed” Limpopo government.

    “The JSC’s letter said Mr Gauntlett’s “excellence and experience as a lawyer were acknowledged”. But a concern was raised that he had a “short thread” and “can be acerbic at times”.

    “Some commissioners accepted his assurance that as a judge one is removed from the immediate combative situation that counsel usually find themselves in, but strong reservations were also expressed as to whether … he has the humility and the appropriate temperament that a judicial officer should display.”

  • Gwebecimele
  • Blue Ozone

    In other words.

    The racist bastard must learn to be “humble” and keep quiet about all the incompetence, corruption and “transformational” skull-fuckery going on.

  • Gwebecimele

    OB

    PdV had you in mind on this paragraph.

    “How else will one be able to mount a plausible and necessary defence of race-based affirmative action while pointing out that support for structured, principled, race-based affirmative action must not be confused with support for the corrupt or nepotistic abuse of affirmative action by racial essentialists?’

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Gwebecimele
    November 7, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Interesting JSC doubts Gauntlett’s ‘humility’.

    If the guy is as full of himself as made out, then perhaps he is not suitable for the bench.

    I don’t buy the version that he can assume a different personality if appointed!

  • Blue Ozone

    Gwebecimele
    November 7, 2012 at 9:59 am

    “with support for the corrupt or nepotistic abuse of affirmative action by *racial essentialists*?’”

    I see – are saying that you think perhaps he was referring to you and Vuyo and himself? Therefore the careful selection of words i.e “racial essentialists” instead of the the simpler “racist” to describe those whites are who do not prostrate themsleves humbly and obediently before the “nonracial’ AA/BEE regime as overseen and implemented by amongst other friends of the Mafia.

  • Zoo Keeper

    On Gauntlett

    Since when has humility been a requirement for the Bench. All the judges have a degree of arrogance so he is hardly unique!

    It is the “concern” that there is an over-concentration of whites on the Western Cape bench that is the main thrust of the decision.

    Its national socialism all over again without the dashing leather uniforms!

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    November 7, 2012 at 9:59 am

    A humble judge????

    After 31 years as a lawyer I’m still waiting to meet a humble judge!

  • mhlongo

    The differences between AA and Job Reservation.

    1. Motive and purpose
    2. Effect
    3. Context
    4. Constitutional legitimacy

    Oh and the former (AA) is a response to the conditions that were occasioned by the latter (JR), thus we can say JR caused AA.

    With respect to humble judges, our Chief Justice is an exemplary instance of the humility that the judicial office requires.

  • Gwebecimele

    JSC SAYS:

    “the appointment of two white males would do violence to the provisions of section 174 (2) of the Constitution. “

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Chris (not the right wing guy!)
    November 7, 2012 at 10:53 am

    Eish Right-Wing-Guy,

    “After 31 years as a lawyer I’m still waiting to meet a humble judge!”

    I introduce you to Judge Motata.

    Oh you said ‘humble’ not ‘humbled’.

    Let’s try Judge Hlophe.

    p.s. Talking about humble judges, since my attempt to answer their hard questions these guys canned the quiz time. Maybe I am not a #CleverBlack, eh!

    Parliament of RSA ‏@ParliamentofRSA

    35. Who are the Chairpersons of the Joint Committee on Constitutional Review? #KnowYourMPs
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Maggs Naidu ‏@maggsnaidu

    @ParliamentofRSA Judge Motata and Judge Hlophe? “35. Who are the Chairpersons of the Joint Committee on Constitutional Review? #KnowYourMPs”
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Parliament of RSA ‏@ParliamentofRSA

    No! RT @maggsnaidu @ParliamentofRSA Judge Motata and Judge Hlophe? “35. Who are the Chairs of the JC on Constitutional Review? #KnowYourMPs”

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    mhlongo
    November 7, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Hey Mhlongo,

    “our Chief Justice is an exemplary instance of the humility that the judicial office requires.”

    It seems to me that someone who claims that god deployed him is anything but humble (or honest)!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Mhlongo

    1. Motive and purpose: the same, just different looking recipients
    2. Effect: the same, driving a racial wedge through the country
    3.Context: identical
    4. Constitutional legitimacy: JR was OK in its day (constitutionally).

    Give it another shot.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    I say Government Communication’s Prof Ndawonde is right in his comments on Zille’s attempt to invade Nkandla last week:

    See Cape Times, 7 November, p 8:

    “Zille’s obsession with President Zuma is a purely political psychosis. … The opposition is molesting the notion of democracy. … Even senior DA members are crying foul on her imprudent visit to Zuma’s house.”

  • Uhm

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 7, 2012 at 13:20 pm

    It’s her job to be obsessed with her opposition, especially if the leader of the opposition is an ethically challenged opportunist with a defunct moral compass. God (or whoever) help us if this man is re-elected.

    The logic used to reach the conclusion that the ANC and Zuma have the countries best interests at heart, speaks to how uneducated the masses are.

    Beautiful song by a band called extreme – “More than words”. Basically says if you show me you love me, I don’t expect you to tell me you love me. It’s only when you don’t show me you love me, that I will need you to keep telling me you love me, for me to keep believing it.

    The same goes for the ANC. If they run the country well, they wouldn’t need to tell us that they can or keep paying lip service to the prospect.

    In any healthy democracy the ANC would not have been re-elected. That is for sure.

  • Gwebecimele

    Someone is smoking his socks and the tender for fees collection has just been extended.

    http://www.fin24.com/Economy/E-tags-go-national-20121107

  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    November 7, 2012 at 9:56 am

    See? WRT My example of whites on the spot at Marikana and Brig Jaco Bothma OC the ANC’s campaign to disarm white South Africans.

    One has to show that one can suck black dick to get promoted.

  • Lisbeth

    @ Zoo Keeper:

    “Its national socialism all over again without the dashing leather uniforms!”

    Don’t leopard skins qualify as “leather”?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Lisbeth

    “Don’t leopard skins qualify as “leather”?”

    Only if tanned.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Still waiting for a plausible defence of AA/BEE. One that convincingly differentiates AA fro job reservation. And one that explains when AA/BEE is set to end? Without a sunset clause AA/BEE is permanent.

    Yes, permanent, which means white children today will be discriminated against, as will their children and grandchildren etc.

    C’mon, defenders of the realm. Lets have the defence.

  • Lisbeth

    Zoo Keeper:

    “Without a sunset clause AA/BEE is permanent.”

    There is never going to be a sunset clause. AA/BEE will only come to a halt when there are no more white people, no more jobs, and no more money.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Lisbeth
    November 7, 2012 at 18:37 pm

    Hey Lisbeth,

    “when there are no more white people, no more jobs, and no more money.”

    When there are no more WHITE people, we won’t need jobs or money!

    WDYSTT?

  • Lisbeth

    Maggs:

    “WDYSTT?”

    Aw, you’re right. Who needs jobs or money. Funny, though, that’s all people are always on about. Sad deluded bunch.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Lisbeth
    November 7, 2012 at 20:11 pm

    Lisbeth,

    Now that we agree that jobs and money are “those tendencies, those WHITE tendencies”, I’ll confidentially let you into a secret.

    Our President, Professor Zuma, is on a drive to “indigenise” our country – first step, he’s revising traditional courts, keeping women in the kitchen, knocking down gays …

    More importantly we’re getting rid of all the arms we bought – hence the arms deal commission. We’ve going to arm our defence force with traditional weapons.

    Canoes for the navy.

    Airforce guys will practice throwing stones and keeping lookout for WHITE people from mountain tops.

    And we’re gonna doa deal with that #CleverBlack guy, Obama to stop WHITE people from coming back and stealing our land, again!

  • Gwebecimele
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje November 7, 2012 at 14:58 pm

    ‘One has to show that one can suck black dick to get promoted.’

    No doubt. How else to you get appointed as “constitutional expert” at UCT with such a priveleged Stellenbosch/Broederbond Apartheid past.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Lisbeth November 7, 2012 at 18:37 pm

    “There is never going to be a sunset clause. AA/BEE will only come to a halt when there are no more white people, no more jobs, and no more money.”

    LOL. It is awfully sad but I guess if you have been around in Afrika long enough you would know it is not very far from the truth.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder November 7, 2012 at 13:20 pm

    It is just a particularly stupid move. Worse than the ‘fight back’ disaster in 1999. I dont know who Zille’s strategizer is but he has obviously never heard of MDC or the rural vote.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    ozoneblue
    November 7, 2012 at 22:09 pm

    Hey OzoneBoy,

    “if you have been around in Afrika long enough you would know it is not very far from the truth.”

    So somewhere in Africa there are no more WHITE people?

    Where’s that – I want to go there!

  • Brett Nortje

    Section 36: Limitation Clause

    The rights in the Bill of Rights may be limited only in terms of law of general application to the extent that the limitation is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all relevant factors, including-
    (a) the nature of the right;

    (b) the importance of the purpose of the limitation;

    (c) the nature and extent of the limitation;

    (d) the relation between the limitation and its purpose; and

    (e) less restrictive means to achieve the purpose.

    2. Except as provided in subsection (1) or in any other provision of the Constitution, no lawmay limit any right entrenched in the Bill of Rights.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje

    You will note that Mlambo, Davis and Jappie do not give a moment’s thought the consequences of Affirmative Action.

    Just how reasonable and justifiable is Affirmative Action when judged by its consequences?

    Here is a report that makes some of the consequences clear:
    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=338538&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    State’s anti-corruption capabilities poor – Kobus Marais
    Kobus Marais
    07 November 2012

    DA MP says PSC report confirms need for ban on senior govt officials doing business with state

    PSC Report: State not doing enough to stop corruption

    The Public Service Commission (PSC) Report on Corruption in the Public Service discussed in parliament today confirms the need for a dedicated anti-corruption unit and for legislation to prevent senior government officials from doing business with the state.

    The Director General (DG) of the Public Service Commission, Prof Richard Levin, told the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration today that public sector procurement is plagued by “parasitic forms of accumulation”, that anti-corruption strategies are uneven and that the consequences of failures to adhere to anti-corruption mechanisms are inadequate.

    Some of the PSC’s most disconcerting findings include that:

    Systematic monitoring of corruption is poor, with only 50% of departments keeping databases on corruption.
    Minimum anti-corruption capabilities are not in place.
    The monitoring and implementation of the Financial Disclosures Framework is not proving efficient in managing the conflicts of interests of senior managers. In Departments where financial disclosures were scrutinised, there was enormous overlap between the official responsibilities and private business interests of senior managers (29% for Public Works, 28% for Transport, 28% for Human Settlements, and 24% in Co-operative Governance).
    The volume of cases of financial misconduct has decreased slightly from 1135 in 2009/10 to 1035 in 2010/11, the cost of financial misconduct has increased significantly and there has been a steady increase in the number of senior managers involved in financial misconduct.
    In 76% of cases, not criminal action was taken against officials involved in financial misconduct.

    While 1054 officials were dismissed from the public service, 341 were given final written warnings and 202 were prosecuted for corrupt activities, the DG could not answer questions on how many public officials were transferred to other departments after complaints were lodged against them through the Anti-Corruption Hotline.

    The PSC report confirmed that there is a lack of investigative capacity by departments to deal with cases reported through the Anti-Corruption Hotline and highlighted the need for “dedicated capacity” and resources to deal with corruption. This echoes the sentiment expressed by Public Protector Thuli Madonsela yesterday, when she told business leaders that she believes South Africa must establish an anti-corruption unit.

    Without the political will and capacity to monitor and root out corruption, corrupt public officials will continue to loot he public purse.

    The DG also expressly supported the idea that there should be legislation preventing senior government officials for doing business with the state.

    The DA has long called for such legislation, but our efforts were thwarted by ANC members of the Portfolio Committee on Private Member’s Legislative Proposals. Now that Members of Parliament can introduce legislation directly to their committee, we will consider renewing our calls for national legislation emulating the anti-graft legislation in the DA-run Western Cape to root out the corruption that occurs when state officials are allowed to conduct business with government.

    Corrupt activities allow valuable state resources to go to fat cat officials rather than South African communities in need of services. The PSC’s findings should spur government into action. Its complacency on corruption is not serving the people of South Africa.

    Statement issued by Kobus Marais MP, DA Shadow Minister of Public Service and Administration, November 7 2012

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @gwebs

    Thing is Kolisi is injured and Mvovo is just coming back from injury so perhaps cdeMantashe should check his facts before he start feeling to sorry for himself again.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 7, 2012 at 22:50 pm

    Hey G,

    Give it up.

    AA and EE are, like Lisbeth, here to stay.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 7, 2012 at 22:55 pm

    Die ANC kan SA rugby vat en dwars in hulle se gatte opdruk – ons is hier besig met ‘n oorlewingsstryd nie ‘n stupid game nie!

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    November 7, 2012 at 23:06 pm

    Not quite, my dear Maggs.

    What we need is for whites to reassert control over their wallets and taxes by engaging in a tax strike till the ANC comes to the table and agrees to a Government of National Unity, and then we need to push for a two-state solution as provided for in S235 of the Constitution.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @brett

    Im also starting to hang that way. No way Im going to become some sort of tax cow paying first class taxes as a second class citzen whose kids cannot even get into university. If these cunts think that is why we voted yes then they better fuckng think again.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 7, 2012 at 23:25 pm

    Hey G,

    “we need to push for a two-state solution”

    We have that already.

    Sober and WHITE people at a rugby match!

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, I can find you a hundred examples of ANC leaders making it clear that this Constitution is not for us these 18 years.

    Club New South AFrica does not accept white members.

    You progressives even your friend Vossie have made it clear too that we whiteys mustn’t be crybabies and claim the protections in the Bill of Rights.

    What is also clear is that white South Africa went into this constitutional dispensation – and the modus vivendi between black and white it was supposed to form the foundation of – in good faith.

    It is just as clear the ANC did not.

    Now, to add to all the hints and blatant statements of intent the ANC has made these 18 years the ANC-KZN has openly threatened violence, bussed in the Brownshirts to Nkandla to commit the violence and Cosatu and the SACP have defended this.

    Well, the hell with that.

    Time to take the ANC at its word and dissolve this ‘partnership’.

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    If participation in the economy is to be based on racial criteria, can you mount a plausible argument that tax contributions should also be on the basis of demographics, i.e. whites should only pay 9% of the tax bill etc.

    Give it a go…?

  • Brett Nortje

    Here is a vignette of white life in the New South Africa:

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Lyk-onder-bed-gevind-20121107

    Lyk onder bed gevind

    2012-11-07 21:49
    Susan Cilliers

    Potchefstroom. – Die erg ontbindende lyk van ’n tenger vrou met ’n rugprobleem is eergister onder ’n bed in haar huis gevind nadat sy vermoedelik verlede week vermoor is.

    Marita Maree (61) se foksterriër, blinde malteserhond en jong boerboel wat sy juis gekry het om haar te beskerm, is dood in die huis se plafon gevind, het ’n buurman gister vertel.

    Maree se lyk was met ’n swart plastieksak bedek en het kopbeserings, het kapt. Pelonomi Makau, polisiewoordvoerder, gister gesê.

    Die hondekarkasse was ook met swart plastieksakke bedek.

    Maree se selfoon en voertuig wor vermis.

    Volgens die buurman het Maree, wat ongetroud en kinderloos was, alleen gewoon sedert haar ma na ’n versorgingsoord is. Hy het haar verlede Woensdag laas gesien toe sy ’n leer by hom geleen het.

    “Ek en my vrou het die volgende dag vroegaand op pad na ’n kerkgeleentheid verby haar huis gestap en dit vreemd gevind dat haar kar nie op die sypaadjie gestaan het nie,” het die buurman vertel.

    “Toe ons ná 21:00 terugstap huis toe, was die huis in donkerte gehul.”

    Die buurman het al hoe bekommerder geraak toe hy in die daaropvolgene dae steeds nie haar motor gesien het nie en haar wasgoed op die draad bly hang het. Maree se telefoon het ook beset gebly.

    Die buurman het die polisie verlede Vrydag laat kom, maar hulle het niks vreemds gesien nie. Daar was nie tekens van ’n inbraak of gedwonge toegang nie.

    Die buurman het die polisie weer Maandag gebel, maar hulle het gesê hulle kan eers Dinsdag kom, het hy vertel.

    Toe die polisie teen eergistermiddag nog nie opgedaag het nie, het die buurman ’n polisievriend gekontak. Die vriend het toe blitsig reëlings getref om beamptes na Maree se huis te stuur.

    Die polisie het Maree se lyk en haar dooie honde kort daarna gevind.

  • Brett Nortje

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    November 7, 2012 at 13:20 pm

    How come McIntosh Polela gets the boot and Proffesor doesn’t?

    How is it that Proffesor gets to draw a state salary while attacking the leader of the official opposition?

    Is it because to the ANC Party=government=state?

    Why is the ANC not paying Proffesor’s salary?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 8, 2012 at 7:47 am

    Hey G,

    “Club New South AFrica does not accept white members.”

    I learned this interesting phrase from you.

    SFW – whatever does it mean?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Zoo Keeper
    November 8, 2012 at 8:00 am

    Hey ZooKy,

    “whites should only pay 9% of the tax bill etc.”

    That’s generous.

    Whites should pay less than 9% (a GENOCIDE discount perhaps?)

    Brett has got a great plan too – withhold payment of taxes, rates, utility/service payments.

    White people are being exploited and it’s terribly racist – inconsistent with UN declarations, our Constitution, the Bible(?) …

  • Zoo Keeper

    Here is an extract from Obama’s victory speech:

    “I believe we can keep the promise of our founders, the idea that if you’re willing to work hard, it doesn’t matter who you are or where you come from or what you look like or where you love. It doesn’t matter whether you’re black or white or Hispanic or Asian or native American or young or old or rich or poor, able, disabled, gay or straight, you can make it here in America if you’re willing to try.”

    So, AA/BEE pundits, please reconcile the above non-racial sentiments with your own view of AA/BEE which expressly determines who can and who can’t make it, or at least places express limits on how far you can go.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zooks

    “AA/BEE pundits, please reconcile the above non-racial sentiments with your own view of AA/BEE”

    Zooks, please reconcile the above non-racial sentiments of President Obama with the fact that, in the U.S, AA is implemented in many fields, including education, hiring and government contracting.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “we need to push for a two-state solution”

    Brett, with respect, a “two-state” solution has been implemented, and seems to be working perfectly well. You are welcome to join JR and many other happy whitists in Australia.

  • Brett Nortje

    LOL@Maggs! Getting defensive?

  • Brett Nortje

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    November 8, 2012 at 9:01 am

    That’s cool, Dworky.

    When there is a hostile partnership dissolution partners get to take out what they brought in, no?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “When there is a hostile partnership dissolution partners get to take out what they brought in, no?”

    You are right. That is why I am demanding that, before they board their Sydney flights, whitists compensate Africans for the trillions of rand of value they have extracted from blacks in general and Africans in particular!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 8, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Dworky,

    Bad boy!

    WHITE people ran away to Oz to get away from other WHITE people – so what’s the point of sending Brett there?

    My Two State solution is better. Sober or drunk – sort of like Richard Baird/Judge Motata.

  • Gwebecimele

    Zook

    Does this look like South Africa???
    Please don’t compare apples and oranges. Here my friend we have six times between blacks and whites. Obama’s speech will be irrelevant here.

    SEE BELOW

    groups as follows (as of March 2005):

    Mean Household Income by Ethnicity[52] Ethnic Category Mean Household Income
    Asian alone $76,747
    White alone $65,317
    Hispanic or Latino $45,871
    Black $40,685

  • Cicero Langa

    Dear Professor,

    First, South African affirmative action has been called the most draconian in the world. Second, it is well recognised that even those in the academy who are normally principle bound and objective, discard it when it comes to affirmative action. You are guilty of that charge.

    Third, South Africa is a country with a skills shortage. To not allow the best man the best job is to fell the economy’s ability to grow at the knees. And if the economy does not grow, unemployment will increase. And unemployment increases, socio-economic rights will not be given effect to. You have to stop thinking short-term, take now, and you have to start thinking long-term, give the economy a chance to grow. You have to stop taking fish out of the one mouth and giving it to the next person for short term gaines, and you have to start teaching people to fish.

    Wake up. Start thinking with your brain. And discard your prejudices.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Maggs

    We will never run away boet. Because we are commited to Africa. What Brett is talking about is a two state solution. Then you lot can affirm yourself.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    ozoneblue
    November 8, 2012 at 10:17 am

    Hey WHITE BOY

    “Then you lot can affirm yourself.”

    You’re assuming that “we-selves” need “you-selves” to affirm “us-selves”!

    Thanks but we’re doing just fine on our own!

  • Brett Nortje

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    November 8, 2012 at 9:19 am

    It is obvious you guys in the ANC are going to turn the dissolution of the New South Africa into a mess. First you renounce the juristic entity called the Rechtsstaat the Republic of South Africa. Then you deny that there is a partnership or that we should divide the surplus according to our respective contributions.

    To me the matter is obvious, but, might I suggest that since this is the ANC we are talking about, we get Rael Levitt to auction off the New South Africa and divide the surplus?

  • Gwebecimele

    Municipal management must answer very serious questions on this unfortunate accident.

    By the way we also need transformation at this level.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/northern-cape/five-die-in-sewage-hell-1.1418871

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    I referred to the sentiments expressed in the speech. I am aware of AA (for minorities) in certain states, and am also aware that some AA has been overturned in the States too.

    Address the non-racial sentiments?

    At least we’re finally getting onto the topic! :)

  • Zoo Keeper

    Gwebes

    The 6/1 stat is not something that can be viewed in isolation. Please check the population figures, urbanization rates and, most importantly, education.

    So when would you believe racial profiling and discrimination in the economy and educational fields can be removed?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zoo Keeper

    “I am aware of AA (for minorities) in certain states, and am also aware that some AA has been overturned in the States too.”

    Zooks. I had in mind federal AA, for which Obama, as President, is responsible. White males are a minority in the U.S. Yet they must deal with AA, which favours women, blacks and people with disabilities. Also, note that Obama has vigorously defended AA in the Supreme Court.

    I am aware of course of the many differences between the US and SA contexts. I was just pointing out to you that Obama’s principles, as articulated in the stirring speech from which you quoted, do not preclude him from presiding over a federal government in which AA is commonplace.

  • Brett Nortje

    Difficult proposition, ZooKeeper.

    How do you quantify that during the 80s UDF stopped in its tracks the building of housing, supply of municipal services and damn near education?

    How do you calculate the self-inflicted damages?

    How do you quantify the impact of the black population tripling between 1978 and 2010? Shouldn’t we start of by telling Gwebecimele if he wants to think in terms of a finite pie he should start off by assuming whites have twice the income blacks do since black predivided their share of the pie by three themselves?

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    If you want a non-racial environment though, how does racial profiling and use of racial quotas to determine one’s opportunities in life enhance that?

  • Andrew

    Zoo Keeper

    Your last question suggest you have no problem with AA but would prefer it be done on other (non-racial) grounds?

    Secondly, even with AA the white citizen seems to be doing okay, so why are people so against it, given that very few are affected by it?

  • Michael Osborne

    Zoo Keeper, my object was not to enter a substantive debate on AA as such, but just to point out to you that President Obama, whose words you quote in opposition to AA, appears to support its implementation in the U.S. That is not to deny that there are important differences between the U.S.and SA. But I do think that a hard-line approach suggesting that race-conscious selection processes are always and in every circumstances excluded is not sustainable. For example, many who generally oppose AA in the hiring of employees would acknowledge that race-targeting may be acceptable and necessary in the educational setting.

  • Brett Nortje

    Andrew says:
    November 8, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Look at the Bus Day article OBS posted above. White senior management, down from 65% to 59% in one year. How much worse is it with middle-managers? Thousands of people dumped on the scrapheap through no fault of their own.

    Dunno about you, but my back gets up very quickly when I see anyone being treated as if ‘disposable’.

    Note too, that the beneficiaries were Indian which explains Maggs’ interest in the topic.

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    One’s education to a large degree determines one’s opportunities in life. How can you separate racial profiling for educational purposes with any other economic purpose? The two are directly linked.

    Also, why is a hard-line non-racial approach unsustainable? Just because some may accept it, doesn’t mean its right. Besides, a hard-line non-racial approach (non-discriminatory in essence) is the ultimate goal of the Constitution!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    November 8, 2012 at 11:41 am

    LOL G,

    “Note too, that the beneficiaries were Indian which explains Maggs’ interest in the topic.”

    My interest in any topic is “WHITE people” – well, to the extent that some are people!

    Indians beneficiaries (of anything)? Do share where that happened!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Andrew

    Gwebes is a keen supporter of AA/BEE, I’m just asking how it should be around and on what grounds Gwebes believes it should be removed.

  • Michael Osborne

    Zookeeper, consider that the US military (not exactly a bunch of lefty-loonies), has intervened in various cases in the US Supreme Court, defending its right to use AA in officer training selection. Why? Because in this day and age, an army in which almost every officer is white, with a large proportion of the lower ranks black, is not sustainable.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    November 8, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Hey ZooKs

    “Besides, a hard-line non-racial approach (non-discriminatory in essence) is the ultimate goal of the Constitution!”

    Somebody tippexed part of a sub-sub-sub clause in the copy of our Constitution which you have.

    It says that “… unless it is established …”

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    Why is it not sustainable? Please explain why you say it is not sustainable?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zoo Keeper

    The military, in supporting AA, recounted how in the Vietnam era and before, the fact that the officer corp was almost entirely white caused enormous racial tension, in an army where a large proportion of enlisted men were black. Vigorous AA at West Point and other officer training programs has changed that entirely. As to education, the end of AA at elite US law schools would mean, at least in the short term, almost no black people would be in class. That would not be good for legal education, or the practice of law. See the arguments nicely set out in the brief submitted by the Obama administration in a big AA case, Fisher, being heard in the US Supreme Court this week:

    http://www.utexas.edu/vp/irla/Documents/ACR%20UnitedStates.pdf

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Zoo Keeper
    November 8, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    ZooKs,

    “Why is it not sustainable? Please explain why you say it is not sustainable?”

    Hmmm, er, um – that’s a tough one.

    Black people in the USA and here should really know that their place is lower down in the ranks – just like in the old days when they were only allowed to kneel in churches to clean the floors, not pray!

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    Thanks for the US link. But: The US is concerned with AA for MINORITIES.

    In the context of race-based criteria against MINORITIES by the MAJORITY, how do you reconcile that argument?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    No, black people should know their place is to be equal if not better than others.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zookeeper

    White males are now a substantial MINORITY in the U.S.

    In any event, I think that whether the beneficiaries of the “victims” are a minority or not is just one of many factors to consider in developing a targeted, context-sensitive AA program. The latter is the approach of our CC, and of the US Supreme Court.

    I advance a careful, pragmatic approach because I am equally opposed to the rigid proposal that AA can never, ever, be acceptable, on the one hand, and the equally absurd proposal from the other side of the debate that AA is universally and unqualified good that must always and everywhere be applied, irrespective of circumstances.

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    Thanks, some food for thought.

    But wouldn’t you agree that both the US and SA faces the same conundrum: when has the tipping point been passed when these measures can be dropped?

    As I said above, I believed AA and BEE had a place for about 15 years into the NSA.

    What is the goal of these policies? How are they measured? And when are they removed for people to stand on their own two feet?

    Without a goal, and therefore without the concomitant knowledge of when the goal has been achieved, AA/BEE is left as purely a method to racially discriminate.

    In SA, AA/BEE is applied as a universally and unqualified good. And that to me is wrong because there is no coherent justification put forward anymore for the policies to continue to survive 18 years on.

    It is rather, put forward as it is to cover for substantial State failures in creating a solid education system and freeing up the business environment.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Zoo Keeper
    November 8, 2012 at 13:03 pm

    Hayibo Zooky,

    “black people should know their place is to be equal if not better than [WHITE PEOPLE]“

    Now I get it!

  • Gwebecimele

    Zook

    What is your basis for 15 yrs? Give me one sector that has been successfuly transformed with supporting figures.

    Census figures suggest that at current pace we will reach equality around 2060.

  • Brett Nortje

    Whose fault is it City of Joburg cannot sort out a complaint about water billing in 3 years? The SAPS cannot renew a gun licence in 8 years? Kids have to hold staff at Home Affairs hostage to get an ID? It can take years to get a pension?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Well Brett – you wanted another state. As you wish …

    OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) – Voters in all but one of Oklahoma’s 77 counties approved a constitutional amendment that wipes out affirmative action in state government hiring, education and contracting practices.

    http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/76-of-77-counties-OK-Okla-affirmative-action-ban-177733641.html

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zoo Keeper

    “But wouldn’t you agree that both the US and SA faces the same conundrum: when has the tipping point been passed when these measures can be dropped?”

    Yes, I agree that the question of when to stop is a difficult one. The U.S. has had forms of AA for half a century, and yet measures remain in place in many sectors. Patterns of disadvantage built up over centuries could take a very long time to be remedied. Discrimination can be self-perpetuating. That being so, I am not opposed to governmental intervention for an extended period. But I remain troubled by the manner in which AA is implemented in SA. First, it does not substantially help those excluded from the mainstream economy. Second, it may in fact harm the poor more than it helps, to the extent AA permits the appointment of people not qualified to manage service delivery.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Gwebes

    That figure of 2060 assumes the same patterns of poor education, rural poverty and low economic growth rates. When you look past it, its just a headline grabber.

    Equality is also an elusive concept. With a massive difference in population levels, the whites have a more concentrated wealth whereas blacks have a dissipated wealth because of the sheer numbers. Had we not experienced a black population explosion from 1970 till now, black wealth would be a lot closer because the numbers would add up as the concentration of wealth would be greater. Whites are about 10% of the black population after all.

    Also, if you look at minority sectors you’ll find smaller populations have greater concentrations; of the whites, the Jewish contingent is arguably the wealthiest, far outstripping the Afrikaner, but they have small numbers and are on average very highly educated.

    Check the average education levels as well. A lot is revealed in those figures.

    The biggest problem we face is a very high population in relation to resources, and extremely poor education standards which exacerbates the problem. The 15 years is entirely my own estimation to integrate the workforce and break down barriers based on race. Its also a full primary school to tertiary undergraduate cycle.

    The last 18 years has also seen the numbers of economically active blacks outstrip whites. Yes, whites still hold most management posts but that’s just how it goes until the skills below are more experienced. The management strata will inevitably change over time.

    And also, this is a capitalist country and the thing about capitalism is that it likes to grow, and by extension the economy will simply have to employ more and more people. There is no ways the South African economy can exclude blacks, and no company can avoid hiring blacks if it wants to grow.

    What we need are leaders who punt the “can do” attitude. We need our JFK moment to turn this country from one of waiting for our handout to making it ourselves. A lot of that has to do with treasuring our personal liberty and fighting hard for our freedoms. One blogger on this site has the right attitude to liberty.

  • Dmwangi

    @MO:

    I tend to be pretty agnostic about AA. On the one hand, I did fine without it and I’m sure my sons will too. On the other, I look at PdV and cannot imagine his position was attained by anything other than white privilege. If a black man displayed such moral and intellectual ineptitude, I do not believe there is any chance he would receive tenure at an allegedly ‘respectable’ institution like UCT.

    That said, I believe your posts illustrate one of the problems with lawyers. Glancing at legal briefs may provide one some cursory knowledge of an issue, which is great for engaging at parties, but this rather facile approach is not appropriate for serious intellectual debate. May I suggest taking a look at a work of brother Thomas Sowell, who completed the most comprehensive comparative study of AA, titled, ‘Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study.’ It will provide you a good primer of the topic so we can discuss more than the political machinations of the Pentagon.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Dmwangi
    November 8, 2012 at 21:32 pm

    Hayibo Dm,

    “On the one hand, I did fine without it and I’m sure my sons will too.”

    You ran away from your country.

    How fine is that?

    p.s. Well done to Kenya for bearing a fellow who fathered a Super PAC annihilator!

  • Dmwangi

    @Maggs:

    I contribute considerably more to my country of birth than you do yours, though admittedly, this is quite a low bar to meet.

    However, your second point is valid. I do not believe Mr. Obama is the product of AA either and he seemed to do fine without it as well.

  • Michael Osborne

    Maggs, somewhat off topic, but since you mention Mr Obama, I wonder what Pierre, who brimmed so with enthusiasm about the results of the 2008 election, has to say on the occasion of Obama’s re-election on Tuesday. See:

    “President Obama has taken a position so strongly in favor of unremitting military violence that he has left his Republican rival, struggle though he may to shoulder his way past him, no place to stand. On the lingering war in Afghanistan and the possible one in Iran, Romney and Congressman Paul Ryan have harshly criticized Obama’s policies even as they have largely embraced them. Caught in a vise of Obama’s devising, the Republicans find themselves pressed on one side by the president’s surge of troops into, and now withdrawal from, Afghanistan, and by his strong sanctions on Iran; and on the other side—should they be tempted to advocate perpetuating the Afghan war or starting a new one against Iran—by the country’s lingering fatigue with the wars begun by George W. Bush.
    Obama’s dramatic escalation and prosecution of the drone campaign, his “surge” of troops into Afghanistan, his embrace of many of George Bush’s national security policies (including warrantless wiretapping and military commissions and indefinite detention) that he bitterly criticized during his election campaign, even his failure to investigate and perhaps punish the use of torture, or to pay the political price to fulfill the promise, embodied in his executive order, to close Guantánamo: all these policies, even as they have disappointed and appalled supporters of human rights, have served to fortify the president’s right flank, making him the first Democrat president since Harry S. Truman to enter a reelection campaign with few if any vulnerabilities on national security.

    Mark Danner, NYRB, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/nov/22/politics-fear/

  • Blue Ozone

    Gwebecimele
    November 8, 2012 at 15:40 pm

    “Census figures suggest that at current pace we will reach equality around 2060.”

    A few simple calculation says otherwise. As it is now with proposed rigid AA combined with BEE there is really not much opportunity left for whites any more. Not much of a future either. Theoretically, according to the aims of AA, whites should not employed at all, their kids should not go to university, etc for a couple of decades at least to “correct the imbalances”. According to Vuyo if they dared start a business they should note even be allowed to hire their own family and should share the ownership with a black partner.

    It is hard to imagine any sane human being would be willing/able to survive under such circumstances. Those who can will be forced to emigrate, those who cannot will end eking out a meagre existence in a trailer parks like Coronation Park. Since 1994 we currently have around 500 000 whites reduced to poverty with around 800 000 having emigrated. With more rigorous AA as Vuyo puts it more who can leave will, and more who can’t will drop out faster so we can take a number of around 200 000 per year either emigrating or dropping out. At that rate the remaining 4 mil will either be gone or washing cars for Mr. Malema and yourself by 2032 – which is still i my lifetime. But I know that is what you are really after. It is called genocide right in line with “(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;”

    But do not despair, once you are finished with the whites the next privileged group will be the Indians. After you have sucked them dry too the next would be the Coloureds – those of them who have somehow miraculously made it.

    I say add another ten years for the Indians and the Coloureds.

    Which brings us to equality for you as soon as 2042.

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    ‘According to Vuyo if they dared start a business they should note even be allowed to hire their own family and should share the ownership with a black partner.’

    Actually, like it or not, Fukuyama et al have shown that kinship selection/familism does inhibit economic growth and generally requires government intervention to root out (i.e. expand the radius of trust and concern). Asian countries (e.g. SK, Singapore, China) have all been pretty effective at it. Though it must be conceded that the trade-off is that it militates against spontaneous association, which is a prerequisite of healthy civil society/’intermediating’ institutions.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @dmwangi

    So in fact then as I said if I did start my own business in order to employ my kids excluded from employment by the ‘freemarket’ concept of AA then government can root that out too.

    As I said no possibility of employment for decades to come.

  • Blue Ozone

    “Any honest private sector commercial lawyer will tell you that most SMME’s do not care about AA or BEE, and are routine offenders of these laws. In my experience, (mostly) white directors of companies appoint their unqualified kids, uncles, the recent fiancé, etc as directors and pay them ridiculous remuneration (tax deductible), pay no normal tax (assessed loss, you see), sell the company to an IDC funded black partner,”

    You see that is the mentality behind AA/BEE. White guy takes the risks to start a business not because he wants to, but because he has to create opportunities for his own kids despite the AA laws. Along comes the BEE cluster fuck saying no-no, how do you dare start a business, it can only be because you are “privileged” you had better “share it” with a “PDI” and while you are at it please fire your kids because you are flouting AA too.

    So WTF are we supposed to do then? How are our white kids going to make a living in 2022?

  • Brett Nortje

    And so we circle-jerk for another 18 years while the population triples and another generation of black kids is brought up fit only for menial labour and the ‘analysts’ argue whether 75% of the population is unemployed according to the formal or extended definition. The ANC will be prattling on about the National Resuscitation Plan and Cosatu will be hissy about it calling for ‘nationalisation’ and ‘redistribution’.

    What a bunch of wankers.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Dmwangi
    November 8, 2012 at 22:37 pm

    Hey Dm,

    [sneak-preview p.s. "I contribute considerably more to my country of birth than you do yours, though admittedly, this is quite a low bar to meet."

    Ok - I contribute considerably less to my country of birth than you do yours - so we're even.]

    Now you ran away from Kenya, like a rat abandoning a sinking ship, to the greatest nation on the planet, to our constitutional democracy which, among other things, infers social, economic and political transformation through AA/EE/BEE which benefits you and enables you to contribute significantly to your country of birth.

    Stop pretending that this does not benefit you.

    p.s. re Obama’s re-election – do check the advantage Obama got from the racial minorities without which he would have lost in several swing states and probably lost the election. It sure seems like affirmative action to me.

  • Blue Ozone

    Michael Osborne
    November 8, 2012 at 18:04 pm

    “But I remain troubled by the manner in which AA is implemented in SA. First, it does not substantially help those excluded from the mainstream economy. Second, it may in fact harm the poor more than it helps, to the extent AA permits the appointment of people not qualified to manage service delivery.”

    Good to hear we are on the same page then. FW De Klerk said very much the same recently, Solidarity has been saying this since at least 2009. SACP and Cosatu has at various times expressed similar sentiments.

    http://www.solidarityresearch.co.za/rectify-affirmative-action-2/

    “South Africa is a country that is burdened by great inequality, poverty and unemployment. Our past saw large-scale discrimination against black people and the consequences of this will be felt for a long time to come. The government has overwhelming political power, but more than half of its support base can be classified as poor. It is therefore in the interests of both the government and the country that the problem of widespread black poverty and unemployment should be addressed as rapidly and as effectively as possible. It should be a priority for all South Africans – regardless of race or political persuasion – actively to support a large “national project” to alleviate the suffering of so many millions of their fellow citizens. Those who maintain that the distress of their fellows does not concern them, do not understand the meaning of brotherly compassion and patriotism and fail to grasp the possible political, economic and security implications of their self-interest.

    The question is therefore not whether there should be a large-scale effort to alleviate poverty and to redress inequalities, but rather how it should be tackled. The South African government has chosen a speicific affirmative action model to address the local problems.

    Affirmative action has been used widely all over the world to protect minorities and to help them to get their fair share of the economic pie. It is usually a temporary measure, used in a liberal free market economy, to achieve true equality by removing both direct and indirect factors that hinder equality. Society can then proceed freely and equally without government intervention, and characterised by true diversity.

    The singularity of the South African affirmative action model lies in the fact that in our country affirmative action is needed to assist the majority, rather than to protect a minority. Other causes of poverty and underdevelopment – like the role and status of women, rapid population growth and urbanisation, the absence of a South African entrepreneurial culture, a brain drain and a lack of mother tongue education – should be addressed simultaneously.”

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Michael Osborne
    November 8, 2012 at 23:08 pm

    Hey Prof (a real one, not Fong-Kong),

    Maybe Obama will now earn the Nobel prize which he was awarded four years ago.

    No matter which way it goes, the world is a far better place without Romney (or perhaps any other Republican) leading the USA.

    p.s. It never ceases to amaze that the nation which put the Rover II on Mars, among other awesome stuff, has leading politicians who believe that women don’t get pregnant from rape.

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    I think you and I are pretty close on AA/BEE.

    I chief objection is based on a complete lack of any goal or means to achieve it.

    It has, in my opinion, seeing the new codes and reading Mlambo’s drivel, become a self-perpetuating system already. These policies, given the mathematics and economics of the situation, cannot uplift the poverty of the majority.

    In my view, South African AA/BEE has crossed the line into arbitrary racial discrimination because it has no goal and is permanent. It is for this reason that a defence of AA/BEE, now after 18 years of the new South Africa, cannot be sustained.

    Brett and OBs views above are actually reasonable. The Professor supports it wholeheartedly, but he is gay and as such has no children. When one has to explain to a child why another is preferred because of the colour of their skin, the farce becomes readily apparent.

    A sad example, a white kid I know grew up multi-racial, not seeing colour. He’s now a teenager and sports quotas are imposed on his provincial team. He is also very aware of AA/BEE, mainly because he is seeing preference based on skin colour. It has caused much bitterness for reasons which are not the fault of children, but his class is now socially segregated.

    That is the real effect of AA/BEE, it does not solve the racial problem, it accentuates and perpetuates it.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Zoo Keeper
    November 9, 2012 at 8:38 am

    Hey ZooKy,

    You “sad example” is indeed a sad example.

    Sad that the kid has to be a consequence of reactionary, counter-revolutionary thinking of the people who influence him the most.

    Somebody should explain to the vulnerable youngster that nobody is entitled
    to a place in a team, a job, a lane on the road, a girlfriend (or boyfriend) or anything else.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “It never ceases to amaze that the nation which put the Rover II on Mars, among other awesome stuff, has leading politicians who believe that women don’t get pregnant from rape.”

    With respect, Maggs, you seem unaware that, when Republican say that women are able to avoid rape-induced pregnancy, they are invoking important findings in duck reproductive physiology:

    See http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11764-female-ducks-fight-back-against-raping-males.html

  • Blue Ozone

    Zoo Keeper
    November 9, 2012 at 8:38 am

    “I chief objection is based on a complete lack of any goal or means to achieve it.”

    It was meant to enlarge the economy and to stimulate economic growth, from Apartheid inherited [exclusive] middle class to the [inclusive] middle class we have now that is more than double the size it used to be.

    It cannot achieve much more than that, besides for the total destruction of the white minority and adhering on to some deeply irrational belief that somehow whites have almost inexhaustible “wealth” accompanied by some magical capabilities to affirm and uplift 50 million people.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 9, 2012 at 8:55 am

    Dworky,

    “Female ducks FIGHT BACK”

    ah ha – so that’s where Tony Leon got his slogan.

    Whatever was he doing in the duck pond?

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    It was never meant to stimulate the economy after Apartheid. The economy had been constricted to such a degree all it needed was to be released and it would grow.

    The economy would have expanded after Apartheid regardless of AA.

    South Africa has, however, consistently underperformed economically and disappointed all growth projections. A large part of this is the problem of poor education, and the results of the intentional destruction of black education by the ANC during the 1980s.

  • Blue Ozone

    Zoo Keeper
    November 9, 2012 at 9:24 am

    afaik what happened before 1994 is water under the bridge now. We are all in this together, black and white, looking into the future. What you don’t seem to realise is that if the ANC or the government fails – SA fails with dire consequences for us all.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    November 9, 2012 at 8:49 am

    So you believe sport is NOT a medium by which kids are socialised into values that are beneficial to humanity?

    Like ‘fair play’? ‘Sportmanship’?

    And you see NO LINK to adult moral corruption like a Minister who tells her staff that equality before the law is a nice idea in theory but they better not try it with her?

  • Racism is racism, begets racism!

    Blue Ozone says:
    November 9, 2012 at 7:25 am

    Of course, that is if you are good enough to start a business that is successful. It just ain’t that easy.

    The irony is that you may have been successful and employed people (maybe up to about 50) for many years before your business fail. A contributing factor to the failure may of course just be that you are too white to get the business you previously had. Never mind that you pioneered in the particular market. Being the new South-Africa, some black start-ups get the business as your customer does a lot of government business and the sector you do work for them is targeted as the area that will need to be transformed for them to meet their BEE targets.

    Don’t try finding yourself a job in that situation. You’d be lucky if you get your cv acknowledged.

    Your options reduced, you try start yet a new business. Few tips:

    Don’t go knocking at the door of the IDC (or anywhere else for that matter) for some funding. You are too white. Never mind the funding is generated out of the tax you, your previous company and employees paid.
    Youd have a better chance to hand your nifty business plan to the black salesperson from your previous failed business. Give them 100% share and wallah.. guess what happens… The only option left for you and your family seems to be that you should leave for greener pastures. How all this serves South Africa remains a mystery..

    Never mind, apparently, experience, entrepreneurship, skills, businesses and jobs grow on trees!

    As for most jobs alla Vuyo and Dworky, you simply hand them to a black person. Then you sit back and wonder how apartheid made this new arrangement fail..

    So how easy is it to start that business?.. http://eprints.ru.ac.za/1679/

    It is estimated that the failure rate of small, medium and micro enterprises (SMEs) is between 70% and 80%. Millions of Rands are being lost on business ventures because of essentially avoidable mistakes and problems. It is maintained that often the ideas are good and the people behind them are competent, but “they do not have a clue of how to run a business” and have no underlying appreciation of business fundamentals. Problems encountered by small businesses are numerous and can be described amongst others as being environmental, financial or managerial in nature.

    &

    The survival rate of SMEs (small and medium enterprises) is relatively low. Less than half of newly established businesses survive beyond five years. This is not only true for South Africa, but also a common phenomenon in the rest of the world. In the South African economy…..

  • Blue Ozone

    Racism is racism, begets racism!
    November 9, 2012 at 9:42 am

    I never said it is easy to start a new business. I have tried and failed a couple of times. This is also what pisses me off tremendously, this bizarre [blackish] idea that “wealth” is sort of automatically given to you by Apartheid and or some inherited “white privilege”. Look for example how incredibly simplistic a vastly over-privileged ACADEMIC sees it:

    “They would like us to believe that their parents all worked very hard for their money (and some must have worked almost as hard as the black people who dug up the gold, tilled the fields and built the roads – at a pittance of the pay of their white bosses).”

    I know these kind of academics that sit around at our tax sponsored universities earn over 600k a year for doing very close to fokkol.

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    Your quote from the Prof shows an incredible lack of historical knowledge:

    “They would like us to believe that their parents all worked very hard for their money (and some must have worked almost as hard as the black people who dug up the gold, tilled the fields and built the roads – at a pittance of the pay of their white bosses).”

    There was massive competition between white and black for jobs underground. The 1922 Rebellion, led by the SACP, was aimed at keeping blacks out of the mines so the jobs would go to whites exclusively. Also, job reservation ensured certain jobs were reserved for whites and blacks and there was a different pay strata as well – whites got better pay than blacks. Not enough to even enter the lower middle class though.

    White and black dug and blasted their way underground for the benefit of the shareholders, who are very, very few in number – certainly not an entire race. The kind of historical amnesia displayed by the Prof is staggering and probably explains his coffee-shop take on the history of this country!

    The good Professor should read more.

  • Racism is racism, begets racism!

    Not fokkol exactly! They get to sit around and speculate why “Instead of focusing on these shocking problems, some middle class South Africans (who are mostly, but not exclusively, white) focus obsessively on affirmative action”.

    We should give credit where it is due and acknowledge Pierre though for his bravery and willingness to bring these thoughts, blogs and comments into existence. Only with these kind of conversations can we start to change the continued idiocy of legislation and policies that fail before they get out the door. Just like Pierre most of those running our municipalities and government departments are completely ignorant (or seem to be) about what it takes to make our lives and businesses work.

    I myself would prefer to focus on the things I could do to help bring employment and help make this country great. Imagine the difference guys like us could make for South Africa if we were empowered to contribute and be successful rather than find every way possible to run us to sea or over it if we could afford to cross the ocean or continent…

    Yes, it is the same imagine as to imagine what South Africa would have looked like if the white man embraced his compatriot all those years ago and focused more on education and economic assistance. BUT WHY??????? are we making the same mistakes. We cannot claim ignorance and at best we have reached the stage where continuing following this AA approach is only for black on white revenge.

    How on earth will this bring us to the vision we all seem to (or used to) believe in as described by the constitution.

    All that is happening is Racism is racism, begets racism!

  • Blue Ozone

    Zoo Keeper
    November 9, 2012 at 10:07 am

    “There was massive competition between white and black for jobs underground. The 1922 Rebellion, led by the SACP, was aimed at keeping blacks out of the mines so the jobs would go to whites exclusively.”

    Shuuut. You don’t want to get Blade Nizimande and Mynwerkers Unie/Solidarity both into an apoplectic fit, now do you? That is the part of our history that EVERYBODY just simply wants to forget.

    Marikana.

  • Brett Nortje

    Lyk my dieslfde gebeur op wynplase in die Wes-Kaap.

    Die dom volksgenote van ons maak nes die ANC – speel Swart mense teen BRuin mense af.

  • Blue Ozone

    What did I tell you.

    If ANC/COSATU don’t know how to handle this then the DA has a snowball’s chance in hell. They can come with their “equal opportunity” neoliberalism but everybody knows something drastic must be done. However AA/BEE cannot deal with this, it has outlived its usefulness, was never designed to in the first place, and is in fact part of the problem now – see Cyril Ramaphosa/Lonmin deal. Same with our Commissioner of Police who is a notable Absa/Barclays BEE beneficiary.

  • Blue Ozone

    Yip. But is this not what the DA’s “free market” policies are al about?

    “The labourers’ perspective is that products the table grapes and citrus that are farmed in the area are for the export market and that the farm owners are making more than enough money. “The farmers make large sums of profit, but then there is no return for the workers. The farm owners reason they don’t have to bargain for farm labour because there is already a pool of cheap labour, and so if the permanent workers from the Western Cape don’t want to work for that amount, the farmers do have access to another labour market,” Brink said.”

    http://allafrica.com/stories/201211081158.html?page=4

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Hey G,

    “So you believe sport is NOT a medium by which kids are socialised into values that are beneficial to humanity?”

    Indeed it is.

    One of the values that kids need to be “socialised” into is that no one is entitled to anything.

    And that glorious one from the bible(?) “the sins of the fathers …”

    The central theme from those who are opposed to the effect of our Transformation Project, is that Black kids must continue being at the back end.

    Perhaps the next generation ought to be “socialised” into understanding that SHIT HAPPENED!

    Now it needs to be cleared up – if everyone gives a bit more and asks for a bit less, we will make a difference in our lifetimes.

    p.s. “The Minister” whoever she may be sounds rather stupid – sort of like OzoneBoy or Paul Kearney. As we know already our Constitution has shown to transcend reactionary values.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!
    November 9, 2012 at 11:30 am

    “The central theme from those who are opposed to the effect of our Transformation Project, is that Black kids must continue being at the back end.”

    Bullshit. Once you have moved into the middle class you stand on your own feet. your sense of endless recurring entitlement is the problem, and we are calling you on this now. Fuck you.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Blue Ozone
    November 9, 2012 at 11:36 am

    Hey WHITE Boy,

    “Once you have moved into the middle class you stand on your own feet.”

    Do say what you mean by “moved into the middle class”.

    p.s. “Fuck you” – again?

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!
    November 9, 2012 at 11:44 am

    “Middle class” is well defined and generally understood to be in South African context when you earn R150- R 400 000 pa. For kids you can use a similar matrix based on the collective income of both(or one) parents.

    linky thing: http://isi2011.congressplanner.eu/pdfs/650168.pdf

    Any more questions?

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    November 9, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Ah! Now I understand. Thank you.

    You’re saying kids who are there to play sport are there to learn about ‘fair play’, but they are not entitled to ‘fair play’.

    Very ‘progressive’.

    Thank you, again.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Blue Ozone
    November 9, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Hey OB,

    So according to you earlier comment anyone earning over R150 K pa (and their children) must “stand on their own feet”.

    Fair enough.

    Except that those who are moaning about having to stand on their own feet are, according to your definition, MIDDLE CLASS.

  • Brett Nortje

    I Trust in God
    I love my country
    And will obey its laws
    I’ll play fair
    And strive to win
    But win or lose – I’ll always do my best.

    ROTFLMAO. Eish. Julle Natte. So NAIVE!

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    G,

    You understand partially. Again!

    “Fair play” is not a parent pronouncing “my child is the best there is”.

    It may be better to teach kids that they are neither guaranteed, nor entitled to a place in anything.

    Once they learn that lesson, then perhaps the decline in WHITE population will reverse – the next generation will make better use of their time than moaning about how unfair life is!

  • Brett Nortje

    Blah blah bla, Maggs!

    You’ve painted yourself into a corner. This last post does not get you out of an untenable position.

    Affirmative Action is like Apartheid. It is just not cricket. No fair-minded person would embrace it as a matter of principle.

    And that is without the huge amount of damage and heartbreak it has caused to South Africans, of which I gave a small example above.

    Sies, man!

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2012 at 13:49 pm

    Hey G,

    Why do you think I am in an untenable position?

    I am very happy with AA/EE/BEE as are “ALL fair minded people” – if you haven”t yet noticed, this is the view which carries!

    Those who claim “damage and heartbreak” are a small, small largely navel-gazing group.

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2012 at 13:49 pm

    I don’t think mags (being a “bargaining Indian”) knows too much about the Spartan spirit, good sportsmanship/honour or cricket.

    Better example would be golf where he constantly demands just like any professional blackman to play of a 1000 handicap.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Blue Ozone
    November 9, 2012 at 15:40 pm

    LOL OB,

    “Better example would be golf where he constantly demands just like any professional blackman to play of a 1000 handicap.”

    That’s exactly why when Papwa Sewgolum, outplaying Gary Player, was made to receive his trophy in the rain outside the clubhouse – because he played with “a 1000 handicap”!

    http://www.southafrica.info/about/sport/greats/sewgolum.htm#.UJ0KiGdlJ8E

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs is right. I say that the benefits of BEE will ultimately “trickle down” to poor blacks. In the meantime, our people at least have role models. Professional naval-gazers can resort to the two state solution. (But not you, Brett – private gun ownership is just about banned in Australia!)

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!
    November 9, 2012 at 15:54 pm

    Beautiful story that mags. But did you note that there was a “privileged white” that stood up for Papwa and in fact that he succeeded without AA? It is therefore totally possible for a black man to succeed without having to cheat or claim unfair advantage.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Blue Ozone
    November 9, 2012 at 16:29 pm

    OB,

    “It is therefore totally possible for a black man to succeed without having to cheat or claim unfair advantage.”

    Of course – that is what happened (and is happening).

    Unlike “some among us”!!!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Hey mfd. Its good that some people think about the future
    for us whites. Dont you? Bearing in mind the recent ethnic cleansing in zim.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    November 9, 2012 at 15:21 pm

    Come now, Maggs! Stop deflecting, you hook-wriggler you.

    You know that your position that kids should be taught they are not entitled to a place in the team even though they are best in the position is untenable and entirely inconsistent with the notion of fair play and sportsmanship. (Which most of us hope they’d carry into the big-people world.)

    With respect to the heartbreak caused by ‘Affirmative Action’ and ‘transformation’ the most obvious and egregious example is the 500 000 homicides we’ve had in the country the last 18 years and the fraction of victims’ families who know the closure of a perpetrator caught tried convicted and jailed – all because you guys destroyed the SAPS and the administration of the criminal justice system with ‘Affirmative Action’ and ‘transformation’ and are not man enough to admit it was a huge mistake….

    Am I wrong?

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2012 at 21:00 pm

    Bret may I remind you. A professional black can never be “wrong” – the correct term is “exploited”.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2012 at 21:00 pm

    Hey G,

    What do you mean by “untenable” (in this context of course)?

    p.s. “they are best in the position” – like Hansie was?

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!
    November 9, 2012 at 21:13 pm

    I guess what you closet Zille supporters must realise is that your whitish arrogance is “untenable”. And that you may be pushing it a little too far.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/13/zimbabwe

  • Blue Ozone

    “The white farmers had it even better. With crop prices soaring, they bought boats on Lake Kariba and built airstrips on their farms for newly acquired planes. Not much of that trickled down to the poor, and not many of the farmers reflected on the essence of the liberation war and its cry not only for freedom but also for land. Instead Zimbabwe’s whites reached an implicit compact with Zanu-PF; they could go on as before, so long as they kept out of politics and did not criticise publicly.

    That is the way it stayed for 20 years, but then quite a number of whites – some of them farmers – made a misjudgment. They thought they had the same rights as everyone else.

    It began with the visible and extensive white opposition to Mugabe in a constitutional referendum in 2000, which he was shocked to lose. Mugabe went on television to concede defeat. Emboldened whites stuck their heads above the political parapet, imagined that the old man could be driven from power and threw their support behind the fledgling Movement for Democratic Change under Morgan Tsvangirai at the parliamentary elections a few months later.

    White people accounted for only a small proportion of the party, but they were highly visible and had clout in part because they were the ones with the money and the cars. They could be seen delivering party propaganda and running its offices. White farmers appeared on stage with Tsvangirai, handing over fat cheques to party coffers.

    The MDC and its white activists regarded all that as everyday politics in a normal society; Mugabe and the Zanu-PF old guard saw an attempt to refight the liberation war by other means. Their fears were not entirely unfounded. “

  • Brett Nortje

    Ek lewe nie op my kniee nie. Daai ding kan jy maar op jou maag skryf en met jou hemp afvee.

  • Alibama

    PdV }}widespread hunger and unemployment{{
    That’s bantu talk/logic: like saying the cat’s dead AND not-breathing.
    Also you ordering of problems, shows lack of priority or causal structure:
    aka muntu-mentality. Your law is good. Your socio-economic analysis is poor.
    Try to get an old copy of “Samuelson’s Economics”.

    }}which confirms that it would not be discriminatory to take affirmative
    action measures in the workplace{{ We’ve discovered that ‘in law’ “intent”
    does NOT mean “intended”, but FFS! are you arse-holes also going to
    morph the PLAIN MEANING of discrimination. Can’t *JULLE* just say “not unjust”.
    JULLE insult people’s intelligence by morphing ‘homosexual’to ‘gay’ ..etc..
    I was reading Keyne’s brilliant 1920′s text [which has become public domain]
    and was fascinated how he was able to make some true observations about the.
    Jews, because that was before the Jewish led, post-WWII PeeCee movement.
    BTW Samuelson [above] is a prime example of ‘their brilliance’.
    Homo sapien’s gene-pools are NOT equal; and your continual pretence that they
    are, is an insult to one’s intelligence. Compare the Jewish and negroid
    contributions to human knowledge — apart from Miles Davis.
    I can’t bother to read the rest, except that ‘text-search’ had me
    rolling-on-the-floor from MDF’s input.

  • Alibama

    UK-press}} There are many villains to blame for Zimbabwe’s decade of horror{{
    Anglos can’t get it:
    It’s not the 3 decades of my grand-father’s death.
    He’s dead FOREVER.

  • https://twitter.com/maggsnaidu Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Dmwangi
    November 8, 2012 at 22:37 pm

    Hey DM

    “@Maggs: I contribute considerably more to my country of birth than you do yours, though admittedly, this is quite a low bar to meet. ”

    Now I know why.

    http://www.economist.com/node/16525240

    It must be tough for your President to head the league, ne!!!

  • David

    Well I write this while I sit in my crappy job which I cant leave. Reason is I was born the wrong colour. I cant get promoted and I dont know what to do. I am 30 and should be moving to greater things. I was the best in my class. (only white one there by the way) I work hard and just have to accept what I have got.

    Oh but wait I should have lots of money anyway because I am white and suppose to be rich. Yeah I grew up in wealth. Not!!!! Instead my early life was that of struggling parents with no food on the table. Do you want to see poverty stricken whites. I can show you. Kids with no hope no future no sense of beonging to the land of their birth

    Take your sterotypical opinion of white people and stick it up your “you know what”

    If Black people hate whites so much send us back to Europe. There I can get health care that works, I can further my education. I can get the life I really deserve. Then you can have this place. My South Africa…