Constitutional Hill

Another woman is dead today

Another woman is dead today. She may be one of the many women who die every day at the hands of their spouses or partners. Her name is Reeva Steenkamp. The only shocking thing about her death is that most of us only know her name because she was allegedly shot and killed by her famous boyfriend, Oscar Pistorius. As is often the case when allegations are made about spousal abuse or killing, many people have jumped to Pistorius’ defence and expressed sympathy for him. But how could they possibly know whether he is guilty or innocent?

When news broke that Oscar Pistorius allegedly shot his girlfriend, initial reports included a mysterious exculpatory explanation: he mistook her for an intruder. No one knows where this explanation came from. It was as if it was unthinkable for the journalists who reported on this that a man (a white man, a sportsman), could ever deliberately harm his girlfriend.

Of course, we know it is not unthinkable. It happens every day in all corners of South Africa. Men of all classes and races abuse and sometimes kill their partners. It is not unthinkable at all. To think it is unthinkable is to be in denial about the epidemic of violence against women in our society.

As I write this, I have no idea what happened in the early hours of Thursday morning in the house of Oscar Pistorius. The facts might eventually show that he is guilty of murder or culpable homicide. The facts might show that he is innocent. All we know is that a woman is dead and that Pistorius is alleged to have caused her death.

A court will eventually decide on Pistorius’ criminal innocence or guilt. But – as was the case when allegations of spousal abuse by Tokyo Sexwale was reported in the media — others seemed to have made up their minds with no evidence to back up their belief. He is innocent. He is guilty.

Some have decided that Pistorius is innocent (because he is a sport star? because he is white? because he is middle class?). They say: “Poor Oscar, we support him in his hour of need.” But they do not know whether they are supporting a murderer or not.

How can they know he is innocent? Is it because they respond in solidarity to the plight of another man and wish to erase the possibility that a man could kill his partner? Are they in denial about the violence that endanger the lives of so many women in South Africa on a daily basis? That would be bizarre as men hurt their partners every day: men of all races and classes and all walks of life. Are they responding to a famous person, assuming that famous people do not abuse or kill their partners?

There has been no court case to determine his innocence. There has also been scant reporting on the circumstances that led to the death of Reeva Steenkamp. It is rather ironic that many of the same people who assume Oscar is innocent would assume that any allegation of corruption made in the media against a politician is true — also long before a court case and also when little evidence on the alleged corruption have been revealed by the media.

Just as troubling is the fact that others seemed to have assumed he is guilty (because he is white? because he is famous? because he is disabled?). Many of those who have already decided that Oscar is guilty, invoke the “innocent until proven guilty” mantra whenever a politician is accused of corruption (or spousal abuse). They are not consistent.

It is as if it the facts are irrelevant and we either believe in a person’s innocence or guilt based on the identity of the person accused of the crime and not based on any facts that might have been revealed.

How could they know in either case whether a person is guilty or innocent, whether he should be supported or shunned? On what facts are they basing their assumptions?

One thing nobody has argued is that the media should not have reported on the allegations that Pistorius shot and killed his girlfriend — unlike with the allegations against Tokyo Sexwale. Some balk at this comparison. In the case of Tokyo no one is dead. There is no lifeless body — only a legal document containing an explosive allegation of spousal abuse.

But this, also, is telling. Often allegations by women that they have been raped or abused are dismissed because the rape or the abuse was not “violent enough”. “She was not stabbed or shot or mutilated, so the allegations cannot be true.” That attitude is part of the problem around rape and spousal abuse and the difficulties of being believed when you report it.

Once again, we do not know whether Pistorius murdered his girlfriend or not. Neither do we know whether Sexwale physically abused his wife. We do know that allegations have been made in both cases and we should expect the media to report on it and try and find out more facts. The abuse and killing of women in South Africa is a national shame and the media has a duty to report on it.

This the media will hopefully do in an unbiased manner. It must try to ascertain as many facts as possible and must report on them accurately and without favouritism. As more facts emerge it will become more plausible to make a tentative (but always provisional) personal assessment of the situation, an assessment that must always be subject to the final word of the court.

Meanwhile another women is dead today. Because Oscar Pistorius is famous, I fear that many of us (including many in the media) will forget this. Oscar is not dead. Reeva Steenkamp is. We should not forget that. Neither should we forget that many women are abused or killed by their partners every day.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “As I write this, I have no idea what happened in the early hours of Thursday morning in the house of Oscar Pistorius.”

    I’ll help you our a bit.

    He took his gun and fired some bullets at her.

    One bullet hit her in her head.

    She died.

    Shot dead.

    She was unarmed.

    She was not a threat to his life.

    She’s dead.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “Neither do we know whether Sexwale physically abused his wife.”

    Indeed!

    But we know Reeva Steenkamp is dead.

    Killed by bullets fired by Pistorius.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Adriaan Basson ‏@AdriaanBasson

    Beeld confirms what I heard yesterday; that Reeva Steenkamp was shot four times through #Oscar Pistorius’ bathroom door. She was inside.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Pistorius appears to have a history of paranoia and a penchant for guns. Last year, he tweeted: “Nothing like getting home to hear the washing machine on and thinking its an intruder to go into full combat recon mode into the pantry! waa [sic]“.

    During a profile on the sportsman, who competed against able-bodied athletes at last year’s London Olympics, the British Daily Mail reported of a baseball and cricket bat behind Pistorious’s bedroom door and a “revolver at his bedside. A machine gun by his window“.

    Likewise, Michael Sokolove, a New York Times journalist, described being treated to shooting lessons at a local range while interviewing Pistorius last year: “I asked what kind of gun he owned, which he seemed to take as an indication of my broader interest in firearms. I had to tell him I didn’t own any. ‘But you’ve shot one, right?’ Actually, I hadn’t.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-15-00-pistorious-surrounded-by-guns

  • Zoo Keeper

    Prof

    When a hero is made by the media, with a clean-cut image etc, people transpose onto him what they want. They want Pistorius to be a good clean guy, who must have had a terrible accident in a moment of panic or somehting like that.

    It essentially reflects people’s own desires not to be let down by a man they do not know but has imposed certain good qualities onto.

    From the media reports, we have various stuff coming – arguing before the shooting, shooting her through a door etc.

    We won’t know until the facts come out at the trial.

    People do seem confused though, they mourn Reeva and yet hope that this was just a terrible accident so their hero is who they wanted him to be.

    If it comes out that he actually did murder her, I expect we’ll see most of those looking for an excuse for him to roundly condemn him.

    In Sexwale’s case, there are allegations. having litigated and seen what can go down in a divorce, I would await a finding of fact by a judge before commenting.

    Its just that I’ve seen some previously normal people go completely insane during divorce proceedings, and sometimes they will do whatever it takes to hurt the other party. This might be hurling accusations and using children as blackmail. Divorce is a strange beast sometimes.

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    We see it all the time. You just have to be a regular reader of this blog to know it. Go back to the post on Matikana. It was stated that the miners charged with murder by Johan Smit (or it it Smith) are definitely innocent. The police men are guilty of murder. Fact. Some who posted comments stated the opposite, the miners are guilty of murder and the police are innocent. With Sexwale it was much the same, he bashed his wife, finish and klaar. Others said Judy is just lying to get his money.

    I think this is the way the human minds work. I see Oscar as a hero, therefore he must be innocent. Or I despise him, maybe because he is White, or because he is successful and I am jealous and therefore he is guilty. The same with Marikana: I despise the police, and they are brutal and must therefore be guilty. I hate the ANC and it would make me feel so good of Sexwale did something bad that he must have done it. Perhaps because I’m an ANC supporter who wanted Sexwale to be president and he must be innocent.

    Don’t we see at least two regular commentators (spammers?) on this blog who do a daily search of the internet to prove that one race is more criminal than the other?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Another woman is dead today.”

    Another man as well.

    Idaho Woman Shoots Husband During Domestic Dispute

    http://newsradio1310.com/idaho-woman-shoots-husband-during-domestic-dispute/

    To reduce “crimes of passion” that occur between couples of all gender and sexual orientation on a daily basis as a simplistic male violence thing and exploit it for cheap femprop is very sick my boy and says a lot about your credibility and intelligence, or rather a lack of it. Then you also try to mix in in the white guilt trip on the sideline, in the very next sentence after talking about Tokoyo Sexwale at the same time.

    You make no sense. You are so confused between all the “lenses” that you have to analyse everything through, that you forget that we are all human beings and that Pretorius himself was disabled and had to overcome many obstacles of prejudice besides for the “privilege” of being [white] [male] [heterosexual] etc. whatever “lense” you want to filter information through so as to fit your narrative.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    …and that Pistorius himself…

    Correction.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “That’s the conclusion of a study of love-triangle homicides by psychologists Laurie Ragatz of West Virginia University and Brenda Russell of Penn State Berks. Utilizing an Internet survey of 458 people (63 percent men), they explored the various ways ingrained attitudes and prejudices shape our views of criminal defendants.”

    “These findings seem to corroborate the conclusions of University of New Hampshire sociologist Murray Straus, who has argued domestic violence is often looked at as less serious if it is perpetrated by a woman. Specifically, Ragatz and Russell found that “violence perpetrated by heterosexual female defendants toward their unfaithful partner was perceived as more acceptable than violence perpetrated by male or homosexual defendants.”

    The study can also be interpreted to support “blameworthiness attribution theory” — the notion that defendants receive harsher sentences when the victim of a crime is female. The researchers noted that “both heterosexual male and homosexual female defendants were found more culpable if the victim was female. Whether the female victim was heterosexual or homosexual did not appear to impact decisions.”

    http://www.psmag.com/legal-affairs/in-crimes-of-passion-women-get-benefit-of-the-doubt-20079/

    But I guess PdV is an absolute master at “blameworthiness attribution theory”.

  • Howard Klaaste

    Life is about perception. Just like religion. People prefer to believe what they want to believe, even if it is not true.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, tell me this is not a massive failure of policing in the ‘transformed’ collectivist state?

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Dood-agter-deur-20130215

    Dood agter deur
    2013-02-15 05:18

    Fanie van Rooyen en Hilda Fourie

    Die model Reeva Steenkamp (30) was agter ’n badkamerdeur in die Paralimpiese held Oscar Pistorius se huis toe hy haar na bewering doodgeskiet het.

    Pistorius is in hegtenis geneem en gaan van moord aangekla word nadat vier koeëls haar in die kop, bors, bekken en hand getref het.

    Die polisie en veiligheidswagte van die Silver Woods-landgoed, in die ooste van Pretoria, is sowat twee ure voor die skote na sy luukse huis ontbied.

    Sy bure het gekla oor die geraas wat uit Pistorius se huis in Bushwillowstraat gekom het – glo weens ’n stryery tussen hom en Steenkamp, sy vriendin. Die twee is in November verlede jaar die eerste keer saam in die openbaar gesien.

    Omstreeks 03:30 is wagte weer na die huis ontbied nadat bure vier skote gehoor het.

    ’n Inwoner, wat nie sy naam genoem wil hê nie, het gesê wagte het Pistorius by Steenkamp se lyk in ’n badkamer gevind.

    Volgens die inwoner is sy deur ’n badkamerdeur geskiet.

    Pistorius is na ondervraging in hegtenis geneem en daar is beslag gelê op ’n 9 mm-pistool.

    Brig. Denise Beukes, Gautengse diensoffisier, het buite die landgoed gesê Pistorius is op die toneel ondervra en het sy volle samewerking gegee.

    Sy het bevestig dat ooggetuies en bure voor die skietery ’n geraas uit Pistorius se huis gehoor het.

    “Daar was voorheen voorvalle van huishoudelike aard by Oscar Pistorius se huis. Ek gaan nie daaroor uitwei nie,” het sy gesê.

    Snip

  • Jevon

    To even suggest that people are merely backing him because hes white is ridiculous.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    February 15, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    “Maggs, tell me this is not a massive failure of policing in the ‘transformed’ collectivist state?”

    You are even worse than Pierre trying to make cheap political propaganda out of a profound interpersonal tragedy.

    Do you have no human empathy, no shame?

  • Brett Nortje

    Fuck you. The very first post under this blog threatens an assault on my rights.

  • Singh

    What did Steenkamp see in this moron; with his supersized machismo. The public was not privy to his violent tendencies and penchant for risky behaviour but she surely must have known. News reports indicate that their was previous calls to the police of domestic disturbances.

    Was the prize of going out with an ‘star’ athlete worth the risk? This is a case of violence against woman to be sure; but is also about a materialistic culture gone of the rails.

    This case also points to a value system inculcated into children girls, especially. A certain shallowness that has over the ages become a dominant theme. That dating a ‘high status’ man is the over arching goal. Perhaps with greater liberation and empowerment of woman this shall disappear and woman shall chose their mates with a more merit based methodology.

  • Gwebecimele

    SA violence knows no race, gender etc
    Men are also not safe.

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2013/02/15/free-state-men-shot-execution-style

  • Gwebecimele

    Who needs a spokesperson?? Tina is in safe hands.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-13-let-them-eat-cock

    I was reminded of the sorely predictable, and tragically unconscious, sexism evinced in the tweets of one Lionel Adendorf. Adendorf is a government spokesperson for the department of agriculture, forestry and fisheries, who was “inspired” by the rape and murder of Anene Booysen to make this comment: “#StopRapeNow – Mothers should not refuse affection from fathers or partners in front of the kids #RIPAnene #AneneBooysen”.

    Adendorf was challenged by many people, and you can read an account of his tweets in full, and a relatively positive communications trail between him and gender activist Michelle Solomon, on her blog. His response to his deserved evisceration might give you hope – in this sad world

  • Gwebecimele

    Surely workers & citizens have found new way of getting attention from authorities. I am yet to hear about workers & citizens who left a meeting with authorities or prefer violence over negoatiations. In many instances this si due to refusal to meet.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2013/02/15/46-medupi-protesters-arrested

  • Gwebecimele
  • DM Mwangi

    @OB & Gwebe:

    Stop talking sense. That’s not what this log is about!

    “To reduce “crimes of passion” that occur between couples of all gender and sexual orientation on a daily basis as a simplistic male violence thing and exploit it for cheap femprop is very sick my boy and says a lot about your credibility and intelligence, or rather a lack of it. Then you also try to mix in in the white guilt trip on the sideline, in the very next sentence after talking about Tokoyo Sexwale at the same time.”

    “SA violence knows no race, gender etc
    Men are also not safe.

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2013/02/15/free-state-men-shot-execution-style

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    What’s a “bekken”? I thought I knew Afrikaans!

  • Deloris Dolittle

    Zoo Keeper, ‘beken’ is a pelvis.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Singh
    February 15, 2013 at 13:25 pm

    Singh – the essence of your comment is that somehow Reeva Steenkamp, ought to have know better, ought to have been more cautious …

    It translates to she was to blame and was at fault.

    It’s a load of bull!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    DM Mwangi
    February 15, 2013 at 14:07 pm

    You are not listening. We are talking anarchists preaching more “identity” based hatred and violence in a society that is already oversaturated – in a state of collapse, social degeneration and moral destruction. As if the lost generation never happened.

    “Religion and government cannot be reformed. There is no ideal state of being for those institutions that will stop the oppression of women.”

    “patriarchy is going to have to undergo a violent revolution before its proponents can understand that their way of being in the world just doesn’t work.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-13-let-them-eat-cock

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 15, 2013 at 14:39 pm

    “Singh – the essence of your comment is that somehow Reeva Steenkamp, ought to have know better, ought to have been more cautious …”

    So there were no warning signs that she was dating a psycho? Being a women, she has no responsibility for her own well being, for making rational choices and exercising her rights to freedom. Women can only assume the role of victim, much like your retarded black victimhood rhetoric. That doesn’t sound even remotely progressive nor like real feminism to me, boet.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    February 15, 2013 at 14:53 pm

    OB,

    “So there were no warning signs that she was dating a psycho? Being a women, she has no responsibility for her own well being, for making rational choices and exercising her rights to freedom. Women can only assume the role of victim, much like your retarded black victimhood rhetoric. That doesn’t sound even remotely progressive nor like real feminism to me, boet.”

    I expect moronic comments from you cos you’re a fucking idiot.

    Singh however should know better!

  • DM Mwangi

    OB:

    I agree with you. I thought this was very well-stated:

    “To reduce “crimes of passion” that occur between couples of all gender and sexual orientation on a daily basis as a simplistic male violence thing and exploit it for cheap femprop is very sick my boy and says a lot about your credibility and intelligence, or rather a lack of it. Then you also try to mix in in the white guilt trip on the sideline, in the very next sentence after talking about Tokoyo Sexwale at the same time.”

    PdV is ideologically committed to viewing every event since the singularity through his holy trinity of race, class, gender/sex. orientation. I rather doubt any of these is the ‘Geist’ that is driving History.

    You and Gwebes were quite right. Race/class/gender are lurking nowhere in this story. Most likely, one person shot another person during a lover’s quarrel. We don’t need radical crit feminists applying their estrus hermeneutic to comprehend.

  • Gwebecimele

    Good initiative better than the “Noise/March Brigade”.

    http://www.crimestatssa.com/topten.php

  • DM Mwangi

    Pistorius obviously shot the girl because of homophobia.

    Confused? Pistorius, like everyone– as the LGBTQ lobby assures us– has repressed homo-erotic desires which, due to the rampant homophobia in the gated communities of Pretoria, were not allowed full expression. Had he not been oppressively forced into the most blatant heterosexual facade — dating overly-attractive women and toting firearms– he would not have felt the need to repudiate his true identity, and thus never would have erupted in a flood of rage and violence against the archetype of HETERONORMATIVITY– white, blonde, supermodels.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    DM Mwangi
    February 15, 2013 at 15:34 pm

    “PdV is ideologically committed to viewing every event since the singularity through his holy trinity of race, class, gender/sex. orientation. I rather doubt any of these is the ‘Geist’ that is driving History. ”

    And is a destructive ideology, I would say a form of neocolonial fascism itself. It is profoundly anti-culture, ant-religion, anti-patriarchy – dare I say anti-human.

    That these these very same “liberal” frauds can sit around talking rubbish all day long while the USA drops bombs wiping out entire “backward” Muslim families in places like Pakistan without even a raising an eyebrow.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Gwebe

    “SA violence knows no race, gender etc. Men are also not safe.”

    You overstate the point, Gwebe. As far as I know, the majority of victims of reported violent crime are black males. But I agree with your general sentiment. Comparative victimology is a sterile and divisive exercise. All too often, it leads to people exploiting tragedy to score political points.

  • Zoo Keeper

    I agree with MO.

    I see the M&G has a headline of 2500 females murdered every year, but isn’t that about 1/4 of the annual total?

    Brett, could you shed some light on the stats, you seem to be the most informed of us in that respect?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Thanks Deloris.

    Obviously I didn’t listen to anatomy closely enough!

    Sounds like she got shot curled while in a ball.

  • Peter Vos

    Hell, I thought it was illegal to identify or publish images of an accused until s/he had appeared in court and pleaded to the charge?

  • nidhi

    Everybody has a million things to say but no suggestions of what we can do. All we ever do is talk an issue to death until a new one comes along that distracts us timeously enough that we don’t have to take action. It’s inadequate, and frustrating, and I’m just as stumped as you are. :(

  • Lisbeth

    “… no suggestions of what we can do”

    What a woman can do – according to some male commenters here – is arm herself to the teeth and shoot every man who comes within 10 metres of her, failing which she must “curl up into ball and beg for mercy”.

    Alternatively, women can listen to Singh’s excellent advice and “choose their mates with a more merit-based methodology”. And no, Maggs, this does not mean that “she was to blame and was at fault”. What it does mean that she was careless, or blinded by her mate’s fame and wealth when she must have been acquainted with the fact that he has a vicious temper.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ “What a woman can do – according to some male commenters here – is arm herself to the teeth and shoot every man who comes within 10 metres”

    No, Lisbeth, it would not be right simply to shoot every male who approaches. She must first CHALLENGE the man, demanding in a clear voice that he approach no further. Only after he has persisted in his advance should she shoot him. Zooky and Brett have obviously given this a lot of thought. Do not caricature or wantonly dismiss their helpful insights!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    February 15, 2013 at 18:25 pm

    Lisbeth,

    “Alternatively, women can listen to Singh’s excellent advice and “choose their mates with a more merit-based methodology”.”

    That cannot be right!

    It’s pretty much consistent with you-know-who’s views that say if a woman is wearing a KANGA then she is “asking for it”!

    Men (or women) with uncontrollable tempers or urges have to know that they must seek therapy, take cold showers, get anger management.

    If all else fails they can try shooting themselves in the head, rather than their partners.

    p.s. Note the “monkey” who had Annie Dewani murdered is now terminally-ill – if he killed himself rather than his then wife she would be alive and he won’t be dying!

  • Brett Nortje

    Come now, Lisbeth. That is hardly being helpful. You know I made it very clear women should be encouraged to defend themselves within the bounds of the law.

    Did you read the Orlando study I posted? Doesn’t it resonate with you?

    I want to go further than you did. If the Beeld article is correct Steenkamp had 2 hours to get out of a dangerous situation this time, the cops had the opportunity to inform everyone what getting a domestic violence protection order entailed, they could have backgroundchecked Pistorius to see whether he had been involved in similar incidents before or was armed.

    Instead, massive systems failure.

  • StevenI

    @MDF

    I trust that what you say is firmly tongue in cheek? Taking the piss, for your normal standards, is too easy.

    I would though ask however if JZ’s bodyguards disarm all and sundry to ensure ease of passage?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Lisbeth
    February 15, 2013 at 18:25 pm

    “What it does mean that she was careless, or blinded by her mate’s fame and wealth when she must have been acquainted with the fact that he has a vicious temper.”

    You are getting it.

    But it goes deeper than that.

    “Why women love bastards – and how you can be one”

    http://womaninblack71.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/why-women-love-bastards-and-how-you-can-be-one/

  • Tumisho

    Only Oscar, Reeva(may her soul rest in peace) and God know what happend. So I dnt thnk we have the right to judge because we dnt know the whole story.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Brett

    ‘[Police] could have backgroundchecked Pistorius to see whether he had been involved in similar incidents before or was armed.”

    Brett, do you support background checks for gun ownership?

  • Ze Philosopher

    OB, this isn’t about race and let’s not even politicise the issue at hand. A young woman was shot dead in cold blood. Back to the issue at hand-Was there intention? Yes. Should he have been charged with the lesser crime of Culpable Homicide? No. My cue analysis of it all: In criminal law the word “Intention” is slightly a technical term that has different meaning to what a lay person would understand it to mean. Famous or not, the State just has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Oscar had intention in the form of Dolus Eventualis. PdV, given the latest revelations; what’s your take on the matter? Further, I would like to applaud the State for roping in Gerrie Nel. It looks like we are in for a ride of a decade. More like OJ Simpson case; pity there’s no Cachran or a glove that doesn’t fit. We should be objective given the facts at hand because whether we like it or not; an innocent life was lost at the hands of Oscar Pistorius. Stats or no stats they wouldn’t justify his or the next man’s decision to take the life of their partners.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 15, 2013 at 19:59 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “If the Beeld article is correct Steenkamp had 2 hours to get out of a dangerous situation this time, the cops had the opportunity to inform everyone what getting a domestic violence protection order entailed, they could have background checked Pistorius to see whether he had been involved in similar incidents before or was armed.”

    This is getting more and more idiotic.

    In the simplest of terms, a guy with a gun murdered a defenseless woman who, locked in a bathroom, posed no danger to him.

    You seem to be suggesting that people, including the deceased and the police, other than the murderer are somehow responsible.

    Alongside your rather silly comments are those who talk about how beautiful, adventurous, aspiring, bubbly, caring, kind, loving etc that she was. All that may be true – but it is irrelevant and does create a wrong impression.

    But an ugly, lazy, vicious, cruel, nasty, evil, ghastly, demented, stupid person also should not be murdered – at least I think that what our laws say.

  • Pingback: A tale two cities; State of the Nation: Oscar Pistorius In a violent South Africa « chrispinphiri

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “… that Oscar is incapable of committing a crime because his white”

    I find it encouraging that people are using this as another valuable opportunity to raise the all-important RACE issue. We must never, never be accused of sweeping RACE under the carpet.

    Thanks so much!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 16, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    “… that Oscar is incapable of committing a crime because his white”

    I guess it was an absolutely bizarre statement. Tells you a lot about the upbringing/background/mindset of the author though, the incurable and almost childishly naive obsession with race that he has no choice but to project on to everybody else. And it permeates through in almost everything the writes.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OB

    With respect, you are wrong. Unless we focus relentlessly on RACE, we will make none of the progress the Professor Zuma foreshadowed in his speech on Thurs night. (Incidentally the focus on Reeva’s GENDER is also to be welcomed — never mind that murder victims are overwhelmingly black and male!)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 16, 2013 at 11:31 am

    Hey maggs. Comments please.

    “Jonason also believes that the dark triad traits may be genetic, meaning that some men are literally unable to stop behaving badly because they’re following an obscure evolutionary strategy developed specifically to impregnate/annoy women. If this is evolution, I think I may have to start believing in God. There is light at the end of the tunnel, however (for women, at least), because the seduction techniques of the dark triads are only a short-term strategy for making babies. Women tend to settle down with nice men rather than one-man population explosions who pretend they’ve been in the SAS, continually rabbit on about their muscles and then make you sleep in the wet patch. This leaves nice men picking up the pieces from their partner’s last relationship with a womanising cad who they will always suspect their girlfriend fancied more than them and a host of ancient dark triad merchants propping up bars across the land muttering about how they used to be ‘a player’ and trying to seduce your Nan.”"

    Do you realise what now another one those appalling dangerous of family life?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “This leaves nice men picking up the pieces from their partner’s last relationship”

    Yep, been there and done that. But we are all evil and to blame for the fucked-up choices most women tend to make.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    February 16, 2013 at 11:31 am

    SHut up, Maggs. Go stand in the corner. I suggested nothing of the kind.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett, ignore Maggs. He is a mischievous SPAM-MEISTER of the lowest order. More to the point; if only had a gun in the bathroom she could have blasted right back at him through the door (aiming low, perhaps)!

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje

    Michael, what I am saying is that the police who were called out to the scene 2 hours before this girl was murdered should have been able to get on the radio and see if there were incidents logged (matters of public record) to a) this address and b) this person (the classic ‘prior brushes with the law’ if you will) and should have been able to enforce our adequate laws on domestic violence.

    But, I’ll play along – I say the ‘background checks’ you refer to (I cannot find any intimation you critically scrutinised them in the past) as applied by the SAPS in determining whether gun licence applicants under the FCA were ‘fit and proper (LOLOL!) which entailed questioning neighbours and employers were blatantly an infringement of S14 of the Constitution. And privacy rights under the common law.

    Next?

    Michael Osborne says:
    February 16, 2013 at 10:49 am

    “Brett, do you support background checks for gun ownership?”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    … if only [she] had a gun in the bathroom …

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje

    Ideally, yes, Dworky. But she didn’t.

    Now, I was fast asleep at 04h00 Thursday morning. I resent the hell out of Maggs’ collective guilt tactics which are of the same family as Nazis wiping out whole villages in reprisal for partisan attacks.

    I won’t put up with it.

  • Michael Osborne

    Brett, I don’t see a straight answer as to whether you support background checks.

    Hard-core gun-nuts (as opposed to the NRA sellouts), in the US are at least consistent. If you truly believe in your heart that Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya, that the Federal Reserve is run by Jews in the service of global capitalism, that UN black helicopters prowl the skies at night, and that federal tyranny (against which we must be well armed), is imminent — why would you trust any government official to “check your background”?

  • Brett Nortje

    Michael, I’ll leave that to hard-core American-born gun nuts to answer.

    I was born in the MaryMount in Johannesburg. Don’t consider myself a ‘nut’ either. I am more interested in knowing whether you as a South African constitutional lawyer think it is consistent with S14 of the Constitution that gun owners applying for gun licences under a South African law (I have never seen you criticising) should have their neighbours and places of employment visited by police and their intimate private facts disclosed.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Brett

    I have not studied the const question, and I hesitate to give any off the cuff view.

    But purely as a logical matter: I gather from Zookeeper that at least part of the ideological basis for him opposing gun control is the issue of a deep distrust of govt, not just the SA govt, but govt in general. If that be the case, I really cannot see how one could support any kind of background checks — as you seemed to do in your earlier comment.

    As for nuttiness, I am not not accusing you of that. But when you take a position that private parties should be allowed to keep nuclear bombs in the basement, you may well sound like you are crazy. I suspect that you do not in fact take that position, but are simply being provocative. Be aware that your attempt to defend left-field nonsense that you do not genuinely embrace makes principled debate very difficult — and, as I say, induces people to think you are nutty.

  • guest

    In every potentially abusive or volatile relationship the tell-tale warning signs are almost always there to see early enough. Not everybody would notice or trigger them though. The best predictor for future behaviour is past behaviour. It always takes 2 to tango, and if women do not want to be passive or active enablers in such situations – they must keep their eyes open and do themselves a favour and leave before it is too late – as soon as the signs are present. If they are too young, naive or inexperienced – they should ask for help, support or advice, and inform and empower themselves.

    There must be very good reasons for the police to go for premeditated murder charge and consider opposing bail without any hesitation. There can’t be that many ways to explain why a man would shoot a woman hiding inside the bathroom 4 times through the bathroom door. Or why would he be constantly hiding/covering his face Shrien Dewani style if this was a genuine unfortunate accident. Or why from all possible threats one could think of – he would threaten another man with breaking his LEGS.

    Just like in the case with Lance Armstrong – this is another excellent example as to why personality cult can be so wrong or even dangerous on so many levels.

    Yes, regardless of all reasons, explanations, speculations or factors – yet another woman is dead.

  • Andre

    My heart goes out to the family who lost a daughter. Yes, it seems correct to say that I should not judge the matter now. But that would be an attempt to detach myself from the terrible matter at hand, as if to deny I have any feelings, and that I cannot do simply because I am human, now, today, and not when the judge reads out his findings. Like like most of you here I have a sibling, a sister, and I would prefer to pass on before she does; this excludes her being shot at four times. We don’t have to live out our lives through law books you know, so I will make my findings, I will blame, right or wrong, because I also have a sister, and so do you, and also because I am human.

  • guest

    As for the “Why women love bastards” topic mentioned above – the choices women (and all people in general) make, and the directions they take are often a direct reflection of how much they value themselves.

  • Brett Nortje

    Michael Osborne says:
    February 16, 2013 at 16:22 pm

    Michael, Genocide Watch has pegged this country under this government at Stage 6 of genocide twice in the last 3 years. I do not think it is possible to mistrust a government more than I do this government, and that would be before I take cognisance of the fact that most of the legislators who are trying to to impose a ‘fit and proper’ standard on me cannot nearly meet it themselves, and then they set in place as their top prosecutor – mostly based on his adversary potential to someone like me – a lawyer who could not himself meet a ‘fit and proper’ standard. And then, Michael, the cadres deploy as a judge to judge the dispute between us the person who outsourced the law (containing the background check) to the ISS in the first place?

    That is why nearly a million people like me have said to this government: ‘Molon Labe!’

    Perhaps my mistrust is matched by my contempt for these pretenders and their affectations.

    But, really, Michael! I am almost convinced following your latest post that mischievousness is one of your basic character traits….I have made it very clear that the persons we are talking about doing the ‘background check’ are the police members in the patrol car sent out to deal with with the domestic disturbance complaint at Pistorius’ townhouse, have I not?

    Bud, don’t you watch ‘Rookie Blues’?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 16, 2013 at 13:54 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “I won’t put up with it.”

    Awww – no need to get angry.

    I’m really a very nice person who means you no harm.

    But I won’t tell you when I am in the bathroom.

    p.s. just kidding about meaning you no harm – if I could collect the fleas of a thousand camels guess where I would shove it?

    p.p.s. The next time you’re playing with your guns please try playing Russian roulette with a full magazine – do tell us how it went.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, you’ve done nothing but waffle for three days. Look at the downward trend in homicide statistics since 1994 and tell me the Firearms Control Act has made any difference whatsoever (besides raping the Constitution, wasting uncounted billions, teaching the cop management they can do as they please and to forget about small technicalities like the rule of law, and making people like me irreconcilable enemies of your government that is)?

    Murder

    in the RSA for the period January to December 1994-2002

    Ratio per 100 000 of the population

    RSA Total
    Jan to Dec 1994 69.5

    Jan to Dec 1995 67.5

    Jan to Dec 1996 63.9

    Jan to Dec 1997 59.6

    Jan to Dec 1998 59.0

    Jan to Dec 1999 55.3

    Jan to Dec 2000 49.6

    Jan to Dec 2001 47.5

    Jan to Dec 2002 47.8

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @guest

    Women go for bastards because apparently they are biologically programmed to do so. Ask our White liberals how that is the fault of religion too.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    What happened in the early hours of Valentines’ Day when Oscar Pistorius’ girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, was gunned down? City Press reveals the shocking details.

    These include:

    » A bloodied cricket bat is the central piece of evidence in the unfolding murder investigation against Pistorius.

    » Pistorius allegedly told his sister, Aimee, that something terrible had happened and that he had mistaken Steenkamp for a burglar.

    » But three sources close to the investigation ruled out the possibility that Pistorius could have mistaken Steenkamp for an intruder. There was no sign of forced entry.

    » It is alleged that the first shot was fired in the bedroom after which Steenkamp locked herself in the bathroom.

    » Pistorius’ father received a call from his son just after 3:20am on Thursday, asking him to come to his house.

    Read the full story in City Press today.

    http://www.citypress.co.za/news/exclusive-the-case-against-oscar/

  • guest

    @ ozoneblue

    Your own comments on this blog seem to be contaminated by too many projections of your own personal (unresolved) issues – hostility, bitterness or hatred towards the author of this article, the said women in general, the americans, other bloggers etc, as well as sexism, racism etc etc – to be taken seriously or met with further argumentation.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 17, 2013 at 0:10 am

    Hey G,

    Thanks for the stats which show that under the ANC government the murder rate has been steadily decreasing.

    Well done to the ANC government (and to you for the revelation).

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    @ guest
    February 17, 2013 at 8:09 am

    I don’t like the author – that is true, but not necessarily on a personal level but rather ideological. When you accuse me of racism, misogyny and sexism you will need to motivate such statements. When Michelle posted here on the previous thread she used the same tactic, however I backed up everything I said with links that contradicted the basic premise of her argument that the “group” interests of men and women are sort of antithetical and that women are almost always victimised in that gender relationship to the point that women as a group are portrayed as helpless victims and not active participants in shaping the very society that they are nurturing.

  • Brett Nortje

    Now, Maggs, I do not want you to miss the forrest for the trees. I’m not even going to argue with you that of course the ANC would want to get the genie back into the bottle once it was in government.

    Look at the stats. That downward trend has been there for 20 years. To claim any successes for the FCA as the professional liars at Gun Free have been doing…. Its fraud. (Incidentally, they were already claiming the FCA ‘was working’ even before it had been promulgated.)

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 17, 2013 at 9:48 am

    G,

    “Look at the stats. That downward trend has been there for 20 years.”

    The stats are for the period during which the ANC has been governing – consistently falling murder rates. Pretty good, ne!

    Did WHITE people keep stats?

    p.s. It also proves that GENOCIDE is being brought under control. Dworky will explain.

  • Brett Nortje

    Yes. True.

    And if one looks at the 6% downward spike in 2010/11 one has too ask how many lives Bheki Cele’s tough talk saved?

    Last year it was 31,2. In 2008 the homicide rate was 37,3/100 000. In 2009 it was 34. Where is the massive drop in the homicide rate thanks to the Firearms Control Act your side is claiming?

    I would say Cele made far more of a difference….

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 17, 2013 at 10:22 am

    “It also proves that GENOCIDE is being brought under control.”

    Funny enough I mailed “Genocide Watch” with references to Andile Mngxitama’s advocacy for a holocaust on Whites in general and Indians on the side. I also posted about it in the Solidarity blog. No interest taken whatsoever even by Afriforum of the De Klerk foundation that would usually be up in arms.

    So I thank and I thank until everything has been thunk. To try explain … – the only logical explanation could be that Andile hates the ANC and their “Marxist-Leninist policies” and most WHITE people seem to agree. So you need to understand that the GENOCIDE on WHITES is not so much a problem as long as we remain a racist, capitalist state.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    Could you keep that rate per 100 000 going till 2012?

    Thanks

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    February 17, 2013 at 10:50 am

    Hayibo OB

    “Andile Mngxitama’s advocacy for a holocaust on Whites in general and Indians on the side.”

    Who appointed you the WHITE messiah for Indian people?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 17, 2013 at 11:05 am

    “Who appointed you the WHITE messiah for Indian people?”

    In general I just love Durbs and the infamous bunny chow. You of all people should know that by now. And Hashim Amla – show me a finer opening batsmen in the modern era of SA cricket despite his “terrorist” beard.

  • John Roberts

    ….man (a white man, a sportsman), could ever deliberately harm his girlfriend…

    As usual in your desperate attempt tp put an anti-white racial spin on it you fucked the facts up. It’s widely reported that Oscar’s sister claimed Oscar had said Reeva was mistaken for an intruder.

  • bob

    PdV
    So Oskar was middle class, that explains your warped perception of the average white in the country. Oskar family was “rich” not middle class.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    John Roberts
    February 17, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    To be fair he also believes he is morally and intellectually superior to not only other whites but also to the “sportman”. We all know the sportman is a stupid masculine beast, not an academic professor like him, a beast that well never be able to be self-aware and comprehend its own racism and sexism since it is just too dumb to attend an Ivory League school and major in race/gender/gay critical studies.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “[Oscar is … too dumb to attend an Ivory League school and major in race/gender/gay critical studies”

    With respect, OzobeBluete, you are wrong. I am blessed with an encyclopaedic understanding of dialectical critical criticism — notwithstanding that I graduated from the humble Lubyanka Tusk Polytechnic. (Admittedly, I was taught by Prof Zizek for one semester!)

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    John Roberts
    February 17, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    JR

    “It’s widely reported that Oscar’s sister claimed Oscar had said Reeva was mistaken for an intruder.”

  • Zulani

    SA akteur vas vir aanranding
    2013-02-17 12:07
    Johannesburg – ‘n Bekende televisie-akteur is in Roodepoort aan die Wes-Rand in hegtenis geneem in verband met die aanranding van sy vriendin.

    RSG berig die man is Saterdagaand aangekeer en het die nag in polisieselle deurgebring.

    Sy naam kan nie bekendgemaak word voordat hy in die hof verskyn het nie.

    Geen verdere besonderhede is verskaf nie.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    February 15, 2013 at 18:25 pm

    Lisbeth,

    “What it does mean that she was careless, or blinded by her mate’s fame and wealth when she must have been acquainted with the fact that he has a vicious temper.”

    It’s a most unfortunate view.

    A woman has a right to have a relationship with a known abuser for whatever her reasons are. But she also has the right not to be abused.

    It’s pretty sad to see people are suggesting that somehow it’s the fault of the woman who knows or ought to have known of the abuser’s abusive streak.

    Implied in that is “she deserved it” – no she does not deserve it.

    People with uncontrollable tempers or urges have to take responsibility for it – seek therapy, commit suicide, chop off their arms or whatever, but control it they must.

    The notion that somehow abusive people have a right to abusive has to be eradicated – I’m really sorry to see that you and others have fallen prey to that.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 17, 2013 at 21:39 pm

    “A woman has a right to have a relationship with a known abuser for whatever her reasons are. But…”

    You cannot be serious.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    February 17, 2013 at 22:06 pm

    OB

    “You cannot be serious”.

    Don’t worry – It’s not intended for you but for normal people.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 17, 2013 at 22:16 pm

    Well thank god that common sense makes me “abnormal” then. I raise my kids to be “abnormal” as well.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, what about if she just “ASKING FOR IT”?

    Hey?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    First the murder and now the reality show. Already.

    “However, one South African TV critic, Thinus Ferreira, said the motives were questionable and “very much about the commercial considerations”. He said that if the show had been pulled it would have upset sponsors, advertising and scheduling. The audience was expected to be far higher than the 2.5 million to 3 million who usually watch the show, now in its fifth season.”

    Another sign of the times? People who have ZERO morals or ethics besides making more money no matter what.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, after my mom died my aunts told me that her first husband had done things like trying to drown her in the toilet. My mom got out of that relationship I think after the guy tried to strangle her Pekinese which was trying to protect her from a beating. My dad gave me the basics when I was about 10 – he showed me Hennie’s picture one day in the paper – I can’t recall if he had been promoted to Deputy Attorney Genl or Deputy Director-Genl of the Justice Dept. Something like that. Anyway, his kids grew up near us. The woman he married next was by contrast to my mom quite plain – perhaps he needed someone he wouldn’t get insanely jealous over? Anyway, I think that family lived happily ever after.

    I think abuse scars a woman forever. Might have had something to do with my mom giving my sister her CZ Mod 70.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue
  • guest

    “It’s pretty sad to see people are suggesting that somehow it’s the fault of the woman who knows or ought to have known of the abuser’s abusive streak.”

    It is not her fault. She did not deserve it. No one is talking about FAULT or BLAME here. Women are not and should not be portrayed as helpless victims. It is their responsibility too. It is also in their best interests. They should know better. They should know that they deserve better. The same goes for women who fall for sociopaths or psychopaths. Wishing for an abuser to stop the abuse, or for a sociopath/psychopath to change is just that: wishful thinking which only perpetuates and aggravates the vicious cycle. Not all of them respond to therapy, have the good intentions – or are even aware of what they are doing. It is therefore in the hands of the recipients to become proactive, interrupt the cycle by removing themselves from it – and by alerting and educating others as well.

    Oh, and by the way – I am a woman.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    guest
    February 17, 2013 at 22:38 pm

    Guest,

    “It is their responsibility too. It is also in their best interests. They should know better. They should know that they deserve better. The same goes for women who fall for sociopaths or psychopaths.”

    That’s a load of rubbish!

    Nobody has the right to abuse.

    As Dworky aptly notes, there are those like you who think “she asked for it”.

    p.s. That you’re a woman is irrelevant to the point made.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 17, 2013 at 22:35 pm

    Brett,

    Well done to your mom.

    I suspect implied in that comment is that no one has the right to abuse, even if the abused “asks for it”!

  • guest

    Nobody has the right to abuse – how come there are so many abusers and so much abuse going on around then? Reality check?

    Women need to protect themselves first – before expecting anyone else to do that.

    Yes, a woman has a right to be a willing participant in an abusive relationship – just like you have the right to get in a cage with a lion. However one should be aware of the consequences and potential risks involved.

    As for the ‘she asked for it’ fabrication – I’d suggest you refrain from putting words in other people’s mouths. At least I am not a former die-hard kangaman supporter.

    The fact that I am a woman, and one closely acquainted with the issues at hand is as relevant as hell, and you are surely not the one to determine that.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 17, 2013 at 23:10 pm

    Shit you know maggs there are some psycho, predatory bastards out there. Nobody can change that. You say women are too dumb or powerless to defend themselves from that known threat? These bastards thrive on the sense of power they feel, given to them by the very same women they abuse.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    guest
    February 17, 2013 at 23:22 pm

    Guest – you’re talking crap.

    Go play with OB or DM!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    February 17, 2013 at 23:22 pm

    OB,

    “Shit you know maggs there are some psycho, predatory bastards out there. Nobody can change that. You say women are too dumb or powerless to defend themselves from that known threat? These bastards thrive on the sense of power they feel, given to them by the very same women they abuse.”

    I mainly agree.

    Except “Nobody can change that”.

    It can and must be changed.

    The power that abusers have to abuse has to be taken away from them.

    Do you agree that no one, under any circumstances, has the right to abuse?

  • guest

    Maggots, I’ll leave your last comment to speak for itself. Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    guest
    February 17, 2013 at 23:28 pm

    Guest,

    “Maggots, I’ll leave your last comment to speak for itself. Thanks.”

    Good.

    It’s arrogant of you to assume that I will be interested in putting anything into your mouth!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 17, 2013 at 23:24 pm

    “Guest – you’re talking crap. Go play with OB or DM!”

    Oi! The male ego there up to its old domineering ways I see. What next – we should all go an hide in the bathroom?

  • guest

    The very same tell-tale signs I was talking about… They come in many disguises.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    I would then conclude with some very wise words from prof Slavoj Žižek:

    “The most obscene defence of the film is the claim that Bigelow rejects cheap moralism and soberly presents the reality of the anti-terrorist struggle, raising difficult questions and thus compelling us to think (plus, some critics add, she “deconstructs” feminine cliches – Maya displays no sentimentality, she is tough and dedicated to her task like men). But with torture, one should not “think”. A parallel with rape imposes itself here: what if a film were to show a brutal rape in the same neutral way, claiming that one should avoid cheap moralism and start to think about rape in all its complexity? Our guts tell us that there is something terribly wrong here; I would like to live in a society where rape is simply considered unacceptable, so that anyone who argues for it appears an eccentric idiot, not in a society where one has to argue against it. The same goes for torture: a sign of ethical progress is the fact that torture is “dogmatically” rejected as repulsive, without any need for argument.”

    “Torture saves lives? Maybe, but for sure it loses souls – and its most obscene justification is to claim that a true hero is ready to forsake his or her soul to save the lives of his or her countrymen. The normalisation of torture in Zero Dark Thirty is a sign of the moral vacuum we are gradually approaching. If there is any doubt about this, try to imagine a major Hollywood film depicting torture in a similar way 20 years ago. It is unthinkable.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/25/zero-dark-thirty-normalises-torture-unjustifiable

  • Paul Kearney

    “….man (a white man, a sportsman), could ever deliberately harm his girlfriend…” it’s a true SAism when a race card is so snidely played in this case; by a so-called academic nogal. AA gone crazy. Is Nel as the prosecutor next to be targeted?

    But Brett, it’s a tough one for anti gun control. Focus on the cricket bat. GFSA to open a CBFSA? Yeah right. OP was arguably in such a rage he’d have battered her to death with the bat if he didn’t have a gun?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    February 17, 2013 at 23:35 pm

    Hey Ozone Boy,

    “Oi! The male ego there up to its old domineering ways I see. What next – we should all go an hide in the bathroom?”

    Indeed!

    Stupidity is gender insensitive it seems.

  • Mike

    Both Singh and Lisbeth have dealt with the crux of this tragedy and that is we live in a society of shallow value systems, where like Minki van der Westhuizen your path to fame is launched by posing half naked for FHM.
    That Reeva deserved better than Oscar is without doubt because whatever the outcome,and it does not look good for Oscar, he was at the very least totally reckless in discharging a firearm in the confines of his house.
    When I am woking up by a strange noise the first thing I do is pat my wife side of the bed.
    On one of my border camps we arrived back in the bush at the tempory base in the dark,we could hear the cocking of the rifles at the command of the officer in charge as he had been warned of our lateness, the giving of the incorrect password meant that we would go down in a hail of bullets, in other words it takes the exercise of discipline, lots of it, before you shoot through a bathroom door without knowing who was on the other side.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    February 18, 2013 at 7:58 am

    Mike,

    “before you shoot through a bathroom door without knowing who was on the other side.”

    It’s too early to be drunk Mike!

    - if you know who’s on the other side, it’s wrong to shoot through a bathroom door;
    - if you don’t know who’s on the other side, it’s wrong to shoot through the bathroom door.

    And if you still believe that story that the oke thought he was shooting at a burglar then … ayo!

  • Mike

    @Maggs – I am giving him the benefit of the doubt before his defense is torn to shreds by Gerrie Nel.You missed the clue in my blog Maggs and that is I always pat my wife’s side of the bed when I am woken up by a strange noise.I find it hard to believe he would have not have noticed her absence from the bed but it is yet to be determined whether he sleeps with his blades on, only previous women can testify to that.
    If she was with him, the decision to shoot through the bathroom door without knowing who was on the other side takes on a new argument.
    The right decision if you re-read my bush war analogy would be to have taken up a defensive position in the house as he would have the upper hand when identifying an intruder.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 18, 2013 at 6:31 am

    “The normalisation of torture in Zero Dark Thirty is a sign of the moral vacuum we are gradually approaching.”

    Maggs. It is part of the value system that I grew up with and which my dear pappa taught me. You never lift a finger against a women, it is an “old fashioned” matter of male pride and honour. No matter what.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    But granted in the good old days we didn’t have “strong” female heroes in Hollywood movies torturing people with our feminists and “liberals” applauding. Torture was a taboo, that was what separated the good guys from the bad guys.

    We didn’t have a fraud of a black USA president that has done nothing to close down CIA run torture camps through out this world either. Yet hailed by “the left” as a sort of messiah. – Just cause he is black.

    It is a sign of the times.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    February 18, 2013 at 8:44 am

    Mike,

    “You missed the clue in my blog Maggs and that is I always pat my wife’s side of the bed when I am woken up by a strange noise.”

    I noted that you get your wife up for her to check out the intruders!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    February 18, 2013 at 8:44 am

    Mike,

    “@Maggs – I am giving him the benefit of the doubt”

    In that case let’s revive the flat earth theory!

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs is discovering what most of us already know. There is a disconnect between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’.

    Under ANC government and its failing state there is very little chance that ‘what should be’ will ever become ‘what is’.

    Criminals definitionally ‘do not obey the law’.

    Are guys who lift their hands to their wives and girlfriends criminals?

    Of course. Even threatening assault is a crime.

    I saw a study cited by Don Kates – I think conducted by the University of St Louis – that showed in 75% of the cases where women were killed by their intimate partners, the St Louis cops had been called our at least once prior to the murder, to ‘settle’ a domestic disturbance, and in 50% of the cases the cops had been called out 5 or more times.

    I am not suggesting for one moment the standard of policing by the SAPS is equivalent to that in St Louis – the ANC has ‘transformed’ policing here.

    In America it appears that the men who kill their wives and girlfriends are hardened criminals with a background of several brushes with the law.

    It would appear common sense that the best means of protection against an abusive criminal would be for the woman to get the hell out of there poste haste. If he has hit you once he is going to hit you again.

    I might also mention again what excellent presents to older teenage girls Baby Brownings make.

    Would one Maggs J Naidu stand in the middle of a store that is being robbed by a heist gang and tell the gang ‘This is illegal! Stop at once!’???

  • Mike

    @Maggs – I fail to understand your responses and have come to the conclusion that you give more thought in deciding to have a crap than before you right a blog.
    Reading through all your blogs on this subject you have presented yourself as some sort of self styled expert critic on the issues raised by various parties.
    As I said in my blog, it does not look good for Oscar Pretorius which a similar view that I held in the OJ Simpson case.

  • Mike

    @Maggs – spelling correction – should be write a blog.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Guest

    “Women need to protect themselves first – before expecting anyone else to do that.”

    Unfortunately most of hand-wringing has been about changing attitudes of others, dancing in the streets to “raise awareness”, pass a law etc.

    Thank you for being un-PC enough to be realistic.

    When Anene was murdered I blogged that women need to be able to protect themselves and need to be taught this from an early age. The hand-wringers calling for attitude change and the easy things which make the caller feel better but do nothing (bit like LEADSA) accused me of blaming the victim and other rubbish – but offered nothing in return.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    February 18, 2013 at 9:28 am

    LOL Mike,

    All that you say about me is true.

    But I’ll help you out a bit – my views are that NO WOMAN DESERVES TO BE ABUSED; NO MAN DESERVES TO BE ABUSED; NO CHILD DESERVES TO BE ABUSED; NO ANIMAL DESERVES TO BE ABUSED.

    I hope it’s clear now!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    No, Maggs is not part of the bunch who shout: “Stop, this is illegal.”

    Maggs is part of the bunch that curl into a ball and hope the criminals appreciate their acquiescence and are gentle with him.

    If you don’t have those silly guns, criminals will rob us with knives instead. Of course, Anene Booysen was disemboweled with a knife. The 75-year old in Krugersdorp was beaten to death with blunt instruments. But they’re still not as bad as guns so that’s why you can’t have them.

    Are you going to write an op-ed piece after Mondli Makanya’s Sunday Times bit?

  • Brett Nortje

    ENews had an NPA spokesperson on. The stats for two years ago: 48 000 rapes reported to the cops, about 2500 went to trial and there were 1300 convictions.

    1300 out of 48 000 reported rapes result in a conviction? 2,7%?

    Does that sound like a deterrent?

  • Gwebecimele

    Panyaza on 702 says learners do not have all the textbooks and are expected to share textbooks due to lack of resources.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    With those kinds of stats, you can see why our police are absolutely no deterrent.

    You should put that in your op-ed piece for next week’s Sunday Times.

  • Gwebecimele

    As usual Lawyers and PR gurus have their eyes on the money. These are “respected” members of our society, they even boast a list of dodgy clients that have benefited from their dribbling of the law.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    February 18, 2013 at 10:15 am

    LOL ZooKy,

    “Maggs is part of the bunch that curl into a ball and hope the criminals appreciate their acquiescence and are gentle with him.”

    To that I say “father forgive him for he knows not what he says”!

    As I understand your view, people who live in dangerous areas or farmers earn the right to be killed.

    Or lawyers who walk in Hillbrow, earn the right to be robbed.

    People who drive with their phones and/or other valuables on their car back seat in known smash and grab hotspots, deserve to be parted with those.

    Male prisoners are entitled to be raped.

    People who go to lawyers deserve to be ripped off.

    I can go on with examples – but you probably get the drift.

    Abusers have no right to abuse!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    Such drivel! You should write sci-fi stuff!

    What is your advice to those caught in a robbery then? C’mon – lay it out then.

  • Gwebecimele

    They can’t even wait for Ramphele to make her announcements, as usual they know better. Whitism strikes again.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=358319&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Mike

    @Maggs – There has been no argument from me as to whether a man women or child deserves to be abused.The argument has been about the plausibilty of Oscar Pretorious defense of a mistaken intruder and so far this defense is not getting off the ground.
    As I said in a previous blog Gerrie Nel is going to tear it to shreds, so stick to the facts Maggs instead of dreaming up the subject matter of what you would like to accuse somebody of saying.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 18, 2013 at 10:38 am

    But stupidity will bring you nowhere. You walk the streets of Hillbrow knowing about the risks. nobody is saying anybody “deserves” abuse. That is your strawman entirely.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    February 18, 2013 at 10:42 am

    ZooKy,

    “What is your advice to those caught in a robbery then? C’mon – lay it out then.”

    From what you’ve been advocating, “those caught in a robbery” deserve to be robbed, injured even killed!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    February 18, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Mike,

    “@Maggs – There has been no argument from me as to whether a man women or child deserves to be abused.”

    You’re being evasive.

    Do you agree or disagree that nobody deserves to be abused under any circumstances?

    Or do you think there are circumstances where abuse is acceptable?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebe

    “They can’t even wait for Ramphele to make her announcements, as usual they know better. Whitism strikes again.”

    Gwebe is right. Behold WHITISM at its WHITIST! Although we all respek Ramphele for her BC struggles, that was a long time ago. By opposing the ANC she has sold out to the palest forces of WHITISM!

    Thanks.

  • Mike

    @Maggs – No I am not being evasive, my blog relates to the defense of OP of a mistaken intruder in the house.You attempted to rubbish that view as with everyone elses view and now you expect me to answer to a subject matter that has never been raised in my blog.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    Evasive as ever.

    It is quite clear then you advocate rolling over and taking it as a means of defense; banking on the attacker feeling a pang of remorse and going easy on you.

    Self-defense is a complete anathema to you then.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    Same issues in Europe (& probably around the world), same “culprit” as well, except our figures are considerably higher.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/17/men-who-hate-women.html

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    February 18, 2013 at 11:28 am

    ZooKy,

    There is a straight line between “nobody deserves to be abused” and “[advocating] rolling over and taking it as a means of defense”.

    Really there isn’t.

    But there are treatments for dyslexia – you should try it!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    February 18, 2013 at 11:27 am

    Mike,

    “You attempted to rubbish that view as with everyone elses view and now you expect me to answer to a subject matter that has never been raised in my blog”

    Er, um, err – it’s not your blog. It’s Pierre’s!

    But you proposing the possibility that there was an intruder (or that it will be submitted as a defence) is not materially different to those who suggested that the Earth is flat (and there are some who still do)!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    you obviously haven’t tried the dyslexia treatment.

    Your position is very clear – self defense is an anathema to you. Nothing you have said refutes that. End

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    February 18, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    ZooKy,

    “Your position is very clear – self defense is an anathema to you. Nothing you have said refutes that.”

    That’s nonsense!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Jama ka Sijadu
    February 18, 2013 at 11:33 am

    “The problem is that *men aren’t able to accept the end of a love story,*” she says. “It’s *not only a problem of power in the society;* it’s a problem of self-determination: nowhere in the world do men accept the loss of control over the women’s life choices.” Spinelli believes part of the problem is the distorted and stereotyped portrayal of women in the media as either mothers or sex objects.”

    Partners in a relationships “fall in love”. It tells me in some societies men are generally less able to deal with the emotion of losing that love i.e. it is not the intention to “control” but rather a romantic, irrational and emotional obsession with a single individual that “completes” the other. It says I cannot live without you, it is most often just as tragic and painful seen from the the abuser’s side.

    Women in the media as “sex objects”. That phenomena together with the pop culture of an over emphasis on “individuality” and “romantic love” are all part of commodification leading to alienation- a concept that is well understood in Marxist theory and the symptoms of a capitalist culture.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, you ninny, no-one has claimed anyone has a right to abuse nor has anyone argued some people deserve to be abused! That comes straight from your thumb.

    Everyone here accepts the right to swing ones arms stops short of the next guy’s nose. If swinging ones arms is not prohibited.

    What we’re discussing here as a practical matter is how those people who will not stand on their rights against an unlawful attacker and defend those rights by force if need be can best stay out of harms way.

    This debate is necessary since your government has ‘transformed’ the SAPS and the criminal justice system to the point where 48000 rape complaints were laid with the police during 2010/2011 out of which only 2500 were tried and convictions obtained in 1300 cases.

    We have to resort to Plan B poste haste!

    Do you understand now or shall we call in a cartoonist?

  • guest

    Rather call pest control…

  • Maggs Naidu

    Brett Nortje

    February 18, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    You’re wrong G!

    Many have been arguing, overtly or otherwise, precisely that.

    P.s. And ZooKy has even confused me with Gandhi!

  • Brett Nortje

    Haikona, Madoda!

    You’re clearly at ease with making the contents of a 5′ woman’s right to self-defence meaningless by denying her the effective means to protect herself.

    What is black and tan and looks good on a rapist?

    A Dobermann bitch! But your philosophical position is the same as body corporates who would deny women the right to keep a dog in a complex.

    And, Maggs, you will also not give her a mental nudge to protect herself.

  • Maggs Naidu

    No Brett – I will not encourage a 2 week old baby nor a blind 98 year old granny to run around with a panga!

  • Brett Nortje

    ZooKeeper, any idea when Gerrie Nel can ask for Pistorius to be sent for observation?

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, tell me you didn’t think this was hilarious?

    guest says:
    February 18, 2013 at 13:18 pm
    Rather call pest control…

  • Brett Nortje

    WHat I would really like now is to have Dr Mouse explain to us – as a last-instance guardian of the Rechtsstaat, someone actually in the hot seat – why we have not long ago passed the tipping-point where self-help is justified under the social contract?

    Brett Nortje says:
    February 18, 2013 at 10:21 am
    ENews had an NPA spokesperson on. The stats for two years ago: 48 000 rapes reported to the cops, about 2500 went to trial and there were 1300 convictions.

    1300 out of 48 000 reported rapes result in a conviction? 2,7%?

    Does that sound like a deterrent?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 18, 2013 at 13:54 pm

    Goofy,

    “Maggs, tell me you didn’t think this was hilarious?”

    I think Guest’s views on abuser’s rights to abuse rather sad!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    Only if they suspect a psychological issue. It would be before trial, probably before pleading even.

    Being exceptionally vain isn’t a recognized problem yet – which is unfortunate because then we could lock up all our politicians in the nut house!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    North Carolina state representatives have proposed a new law to prevent women from exposing their nipples in public.

    According to a report in the HuffingtonPost.com, the House Bill 34 seeks to “clarify” state law by making it a Class H felony to expose “the nipple, or any portion of the areola, of the human female breast”.

    This proposal which was co-sponsored by Republican representative Rayne Brown was prompted by Asheville’s second annual topless protest and women’s rally which took place in August last year.

    “There are communities across this state, there’s local governments across this state, and also local law enforcement for whom this issue is really not a laughing matter,” Brown said when quizzed about the bill.

    Women who expose their nipples would face up to six months in prison, depending on the intent of the exposure. There is an exemption for breastfeeding, and men’s nipples aren’t affected by the bill

    http://thenewage.co.za/83494-1020-53-Nipple_exposure_to_be_made_illegal_in_US_state

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Telling confession form a contemporary, cosmopolitan women.

    African moms: Be patient with your unmarried daughters

    “Yesterday’s woman wanted marriage. Today’s woman wants love — and marriage, if it turns out that way. Olivia Pope’s character in the TV series “Scandal” spoke quite unapologetically for today’s woman when she said: “I could probably give all this up, and live in a country house and have babies and be normal. I could. But I don’t want to. I’m not built for it. I don’t want normal and easy…and simple. I want…painful, difficult…devastating…life-changing…extraordinary love.”

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/16/opinion/okasi-african-moms/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

    Romeo and Juliet – but what if it doesn’t last, what if one of the two obsessing lovers don’t know where to draw the line?

  • Brett Nortje

    The lunatics are running the asylum already.

    I’ve been expecting Nel to make a move like that. I made my mind up Oscar was psycho when he ‘won the right’ to compete against ‘able-bodied’ athletes.

    Zoo Keeper says:
    February 18, 2013 at 14:35 pm

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 18, 2013 at 20:21 pm

    G,

    “I made my mind up Oscar was psycho when he ‘won the right’ to compete against ‘able-bodied’ athletes.”

    Then he should not have been allowed to own a, er, cricket bat!

  • Brett Nortje

    Yes.

    But not because you say so – through a system of due process.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 18, 2013 at 20:52 pm

    “through a system of due process.”

    We need a Cricket Bat Control Act????

  • http://none Biloko

    A quote from Lindiwe Mazibuko (taken from Daily Maverick): “….one in three women in our country can expect to be raped in her lifetime. It is in this context that every eight hours, a South African woman is murdered by her intimate partner.”

    That’s 3 women killed by their partners every single day, or 1,095 per annum. Not a huge number in the context of the population figures, but it’s 1,095 too many.

    Using a 2005 census figure which states the female population of SA as being 26.072 million, 8.7 million women can expect to be raped in their lifetime … The population has grown since then, so the number of potential victims will have increased accordingly.

    These statistics are so shocking that I had to do my calculations over and over again, as I could not believe my results. Sadly, they are all too correct. In this context, it is interesting to note that the SA NGO Rape Crisis is about to lose its funding.

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