Constitutional Hill

CAR: where was Parliament?

Many questions remain about the deployment of members of the South African Defence Force in a civil war zone in the Central African Republic (CAR). These include the actual purpose of the deployment, the South African government’s strategic goals for the deployment, as well as what actually happened when at least 13 of our soldiers were tragically killed in combat over the weekend. After all as the Greek writer/poet Aeschylus (525BC — 456BC) is said to have first remarked: “In war, truth is the first casualty.” One question that has not been answered is why our Parliament has apparently not adequately fulfilled its democratic role of overseeing the deployment of our soldiers as required by the Constitution and the Defence Act of 2002?

It is true that in terms of our Constitution, the President is the commander in Chief of the armed forces, as is the practice in most democracies. As I have pointed out before the President has the power to “authorise the employment” of the defence force in co-operation with the police service; in defence of the Republic; or in fulfilment of an international obligation.

When he employs the defence force for one of the reasons allowed for above, the President must inform Parliament, “promptly and in appropriate detail” of:

  • the reasons for the employment of the defence force;
  • any place where the force is being employed;
  • the number of people involved;
  • the period for which the force is expected to be employed; and
  • expenditure incurred or expected to be incurred.

If Parliament is not in session at the time of the authorisation, the President must provide the information to the Portfolio Committee of Defence that oversees the Defence Force.

For obvious reasons the President does not have to ask permission from Parliament before he employs the Defence Force. In critical situations, the Defence Force may have to be employed before Parliament will be able to sit and to deliberate on the wisdom of the planned employment of our troops. That is why section 18(5) states that no matter what Parliament decides about a decision by the President to employ our troops, the validity of the original authorisation by the President will not be affected.

But this does not mean that Parliament has no role to play in a decision to authorise the employment of our troops, either inside the country or on a foreign mission in fulfilment of an international obligation. On the contrary, once informed about the employment, the provisions of section 18(5) of the Defence Act kicks in, which requires Parliament to consider the wisdom of the President’s decision. This provision establishes the principle of direct democratic oversight by Parliament over decisions by the President to employ our soldiers to situations where they may come in harm’s way.

This sections states that Parliament may, within seven days after receiving the information about an employment of the Defence Force take any of the following decisions “by resolution”:

  • confirm any such authorisation of employment;
  • order the amendment of such authorisation;
  • order the substitution for such authorisation of any other appropriate authorisation; or
  • order the termination of the employment of the Defence Force.

Members of Parliament can only apply their minds as to the wisdom of the President’s decision, if Parliament actually considers the decision by the President and debate it. Without a debate in which the pro’s and con’s of an employment is considered, it will not be able to exercise its powers as set out in section 18(5) of the Defence Act.

This provision is important as it affirms — in line with section 198(d) of the Constitution – that “[n]ational security is subject to the authority of Parliament and the national executive”. It forms part of the system of checks and balances that is inherent in the principle of separation of powers. It avoids a situation in which a President unilaterally involves South African troops in military operations (without having to justify the decision to the democratically elected representatives of the people), thus limiting the powers of the commander in Chief and subjecting it to democratic scrutiny and oversight.

This principle is further entrenched by the provisions of section 203 dealing with a decision of the President to “declare a state of national defence”, which I take to mean a decision to involve South Africa in a war inside or outside the borders of South Africa.

When the President decides to declare a state of national defence, the Constitution provides for a more invasive role for Parliament. Section 203(2) requires the President to inform Parliament of the declaration as well as the reasons for it and if Parliament is not sitting when a state of national defence is declared, the President must summon Parliament to an extraordinary sitting within seven days of the declaration. Section 203(3) further states that a declaration of a state of national defence lapses unless it is approved by Parliament within seven days of the declaration.

All these provisions of the Constitution, read with the relevant provisions of the Defence Act, therefore envisage an active role for Parliament in decisions by the President to employ our troops, both inside the country and abroad.

This raises some questions about the lack of debate and discussion in Parliament regarding various decisions by the President to employ troops elsewhere on our continent. Of course, given the overwhelming electoral majority enjoyed by the President’s party in the National Assembly and given the strict party discipline imposed on members of Parliament in South Africa, it is currently unthinkable that Parliament will use its powers in terms of section 18(5) of the Defence Act to overturn a decision by the President to employ our troops in another country.

But when considering whether to sanction the decision by the President, Parliament will be required to conduct a proper debate. The President (or, at the very least, the Minister of Defence) will be required to report to Parliament on the reasons for the President’s decision. Such a debate will serve to account to voters for what may turn out to be a life or death decision. Once Parliament approves the decision by the President, the deployment will also enjoy democratic legitimacy and will ensure political support for our Defence Force members who might be sent on dangerous missions like the one to CAR.

As far as I am aware, such vigorous debates in Parliament about the wisdom of deploying troops to various parts of our continent have never occurred. It is only now that the mission in CAR has run into serious difficulties that ordinary voters are starting to ask the hard questions, which should have been asked at the time of the employment. This does our troops a disservice as conjecture and accusations about the nature of the mission to CAR swirl around while our troops may very well still be in danger. Better to have these discussions and debates before the danger arise. But for that we need a Parliament that  respects the separation of powers and its own role of checking and overseeing the exercise of power by the executive seriously.

  • Anonymouse

    Aargh!! As an ex soldier (on conscription service) I am deeply disconcerted and dismayed at what happened here – and the blood of those thirteen poor soldiers who lost their lives are clearly on the hands of President Jacob Zuma, the High Command of the SANDF, Parliament and all the ANC executives. While we might have been delivered from the brutal vice of apartheid (and I am glad we were!) through the struggle (that I once were called upon to oppress through conscription service), we have now been handed over to a kleptocracy (infested with corruption and self-help – where the President’s private pension, ‘Nkandla’, is rigged to withstand an onslaught by a few brigades of soldiers) that does not have the decency to properly care for the soldiers who are primarily there to protect our hard-fought democracy and constitution. Those poor chaps, I must agree with Solly Shoke (the first five-star general this country has ever seen!), fought bravely – but I will not, as he did, revel in the idea of their braveness and capability to take a stand against 3000 rebels (being less than 300 in number), because I know, as everyone knows, they were ill equipped (and -trained) to handle such eventualities – and they should never have been sent to protect a foreign head of state against rebel forces. Our SANDF does not have the capability to stand against the smallest armed (even rebel) force in Africa today – so how do we think we are going to protect our democracy if, say, Bob of Zimbabwe, tomorrow declares war on our beloved country. Our Gripens are not even carrying weapons because of a budget defficit, and more than half of them are hangared due to a lack of funds. So, tomorrow if some or other small Mickey-Mouse country ‘strips its moer’ for us, and decide to attack us or our democracy (as the Rhino-poachers and other so-called job-seeking invaders already do to an extent), we do not even have the capability and competency to protect our territorial borders. We do not even have the capability and competency to protect our territorial waters (and, the waters of our neighbours – who are even more incompetent inm this regard) against acts of piracy. Oogh! Ek wil net galbraak vanaand! Ek wil amper met een van die ander lesers saamstem – hierdie land is ‘FUBAR’.

  • Anonymouse

    Parliament’s lack of (or laxness in)O exercising its powers (to consider the President’s actions and not to simply ‘rubber-stamp’ his decisions) has recently become evident in a (concededly less insidious) event when they (the President’s ANC lackeys) decided to ‘rubber-stamp’ the President’s determination of magistrates’ remuneration scales, without recognizing Parliament’s statutory duty to ‘approve or dissapprove, either in part or as a whole’ the President’s determination – saying that ‘it is safer not to vote against the Independent Remuneration Commission who advises the President in this regard, since it is the same body that determines our salaries’. … Now, that is a Parliament I cannot trust,

  • Anonymouse

    Its a SHAME!!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “This does our troops a disservice as conjecture and accusations about the nature of the mission to CAR swirl around *while our troops may very well still be in danger*”

    I give you our wiki.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic_conflict_%282012%E2%80%93present%29#International_response

    Countries

    France – On 27 December, CAR President Francois Bozizé requested international assistance to help with the rebellion, in particular from France and the United States. French President François Hollande rejected the plea, saying that the 250 French troops stationed at Bangui M’Poko International Airport are there “in no way to intervene in the internal affairs”. Separately, a Foreign Ministry statement condemned “the continued hostility by the rebel groups”, adding that the only solution to the crisis was dialogue.[79] United States of America – On 24 December the State Department issued a warning to all American citizens, recommending against all but essential travel outside the capital Bangui. All non-essential personnel were evacuated, and the embassy switched to limited emergency consular services.[80] On 28 December, the United States Embassy in Bangui suspended operations due to the ongoing rebel attacks;[81] with Ambassador Laurence D. Wohlers and his diplomatic staff evacuating the country.[82]

    Organizations

    African Union – Yayi Boni, then-chairman of the African Union, held a press conference in Bangui, stating, “I beg my rebellious brothers, I ask them to cease hostilities, to make peace with President Bozizé and the Central African people … If you stop fighting, you are helping to consolidate peace in Africa. African people do not deserve all this suffering. The African continent needs peace and not war.”[83] Boni went on to call for dialogue between the current government and the rebels.[83] The African Union suspended the Central African Republic from its membership on 25 March 2013.[84] European Union – On 21 December the High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton called on the armed rebel groups to “cease all hostilities and to respect the Libreville Comprehensive Peace Agreement”. European Commissioner for Humanitarian Aid Kristalina Georgieva added that she was deeply worried over the situation in the country and that she strongly urged “all armed groups to respect international humanitarian law and the activities of humanitarians”.[85] On 1 January Ashton once again expressed concern over the violence and urged all parties involved to “take all necessary measures to end, without delay, all exactions against populations in Bangui neighbourhoods that undermine chances of a peaceful dialogue”.[86] United Nations – On 26 December the U.N. announced it was pulling all non-essential personnel out of the country due to the worsening security situation. In a statement, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemned the rebels’ advance and warned that it had the potential to “gravely undermine the peace agreements in place”. He also called on the government “to ensure the safety and security of U.N. personnel and its premises.”[48][87]”

    All the colonial powers and the UN pulled out in December 2012. It is now 26 March 2013 and our soldiers are being butchered.

    What does that tell you all?

    Zuma must go.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    @ Pierre

    By “where was Parliament?” presumably you mean the ANC MPs.

    The short answer is they were doing what ANC MPs do best. Protecting their arses.

    If anyone expects any different they only need to consider the ANC response to Bantu Holomisa, Barbara Hogan, Ben Turok. Crooks, criminals, fraudsters are protected while those who ask the hard questions which ought to be asked, get FIRED.

    Anyway the ANC’s deployment committee will make sure that it has a critical mass of useless, lazy, navel-gazing, sycophantic MPs who prefer to remain clueless at R900K per year so that those in the corridors of power can loot the state coffers, allow the murder of our people, allow our soldiers to be killed “protecting” despots and similar shit.

    “But for that we need a Parliament that respects the separation of powers and its own role of checking and overseeing the exercise of power by the executive seriously.”

    Now seriously Pierre – when did Parliament show such respect?

  • SS

    There is no purpose for our soldiers to be in foreign countries when we have problems of our own that could be improved if these soldiers had been deployed locally.

  • SS

    I wonder when the oh so loyal supporters of the anc will realise that they are not the primary interest of the ruling party, they are expendable , everyone from the gogo who starves to death because she is took sick to get to the pension payout but is wheeled out by councillors in front of the media to vote at election time to the soldiers who het shipped out to no mans land to “peace keep”.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    SS
    March 26, 2013 at 22:08 pm

    “There is no purpose for our soldiers to be in foreign countries when we have problems of our own that could be improved if these soldiers had been deployed locally.”

    I’m sorry. You don’t deploy *soldiers* to “solve [political] problems” in a DEMOCRATIC country. That is as Banana Republic as CAR itself. PdV never commented on DA and WC farm worker uprisings, I called him on it, now he rants about what happens somewhere else?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2IwOemnjbI

  • SS

    @ Ozoneblue,

    I am talking about them operating road.blocks, illegal fire arm operations, illegal liquor vending crack downs. I dont see this as solving political solutions but i am no political hotshot so i could.be wrong.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    SS
    March 26, 2013 at 22:25 pm

    I’m referring to this.

    Zille requests deployment of SANDF in WCape farm areas

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=343559&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Maggs Naidu

    JR do say what will happen!

  • Zoo Keeper

    SA wants to project itself as the power it once was pre-1994.

    However, we have one of the lowest defense budgets on the continent, coming in only marginally ahead of Mozambique and Madagascar as far as I can make out.

    Defense is a vital part of the State and requires about 3.5% of the budget to get off the ground.

    We have no aerial cover, defensive or offensive and have had none since the old Cheetah fleet was decommissioned and sold to grateful buyers in South America. Bob of Zimbabwe currently enjoys air superiority over SA and has done for about a decade (how scary is that?). Our mechanized battalions are mostly standing in heaps of mothballs. All we really have is what went on display in CAR – infantry with assault rifles and light machine guns.

    If you think its limited to the land and air forces, our navy has only one corvette which can take to sea, the other 3 are wrecks. Only one sub works, the other two have been wrecked as well. We are actually using the 3 corvettes and 2 subs for parts for the remaining vessels!

    Whilst the CAR deployment and loss of troops in defense of a dictator is inexcusable, the destruction of the SANDF, SAAF and SAN is nothing short of criminal.

    The capability of the old SADF, which no doubt the ANC still punts as existent has long been destroyed. Not even Swaziland need fear us.

    I’m willing to bet JZ will do an Mbeki and everyone in the ANC will “take collective responsibility.”

  • Anonymouse

    See http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SANDF-denies-CAR-troops-killed-SA-soldiers-20130327 and especially the comments levelled. I more particularly agree with the first two – Where are the fancy planes and weaponry that we bought during the arms deal scam? Why do we, who has such a small (understaffed, ill equiped and incompetent) armed force, why do we send part of it out to defend other countries’ regimes?

  • http://facebook thabo mbekii

    but minister said they wer the to train

  • Andrew

    First, let me state that I agree with the constitutional and oversight questions raised by the Prof.

    Thing is about 220 of our South African Soldiers fought, against 1000-3000 rebels. Regrettably 13 were lost with another 27 injured. We hear a lot of noise about inadequately trained soldiers. Really? Inadequately trained soldiers fought a ‘high-intensity battle’ for at least 9 hours and lost only 13.
    We’ll then I would like to be badly trained as well.

    According to the SANDF, a reconnaissance group encountered rebels about 1km from the base, got engaged by the rebels and lost…none during this phase of the fighting. Badly trained…. really?

    While we must criticize government for putting our troops in harm’s way, let’s not let our dislike of government affect our lay assessment of what happened to the point of the ridiculous.

  • Chris

    I’m afraid the question “Where was Parliamant” does not only have relevance in the CAR situation. Being a rubber stamp to President Zuma and Lethuli House has become a characteristic of the ANC section of Parliament. The example Anonymouse referred to is just one in a series. We have reached the stage where we can rightly ask if Parliament still has relevance in our constitutional system. Do we need hundreds of MPs just listening to their masters voices? And I’m not just referring to the ANC MPs. How about get rid of the MPs, get rid of Parliament, and just say Lethuli House has X no. of votes, the DA has Y no. of votes, etc, when deciding on matters now dealt with by Parliament and in practice we won’t even notice the change. Of course there are debates, but just go the PMG website and look at the low quality of the debates, the ignorance shown by so many of those participating! It is scary.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 10:22 am

    What we do know –

    “On 27 December, CAR President Francois Bozizé requested international assistance to help with the rebellion, in particular from France and the United States. French President François Hollande rejected the plea, saying that the 250 French troops stationed at Bangui M’Poko International Airport are there “in no way to intervene in the internal affairs”. ”

    Both USA and France assessed the conditions and pulled their personnel out. Why were our troops left behind there in harm’s way? Or perhaps to “intervene in the internal affairs”.

  • Andrew

    Another bit of nonsense we hear is that the SANDF should now withdraw and allow a ‘President’ (dictator?), who will rule by decree to run havoc. I disagree on two grounds.

    The first is that we have peacekeepers in other parts of Africa. Rebels will not take them seriously if we just ‘run away’ when soldiers do what they are trained to do.
    The second is that the coups in Africa must stop and if the most professional fighting force on the continent is required to send this message, then so be it.

    What is required is that the shiny hardware we acquired be used in anger. That is we must equip our troops properly. Someone above said 3.5% of budget is what is needed. I suggest government waste be stopped and use the money (All R28 Billion, if I recall correctly) for this purpose.

  • Andrew

    OZBlue. I don’t approve of our troops being there without proper justification, which has not been forthcoming.

    On why USA and France chose to not intervene is neither here nor there.

    The CIA and others are helping fuel a civil war in Syria…….

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 10:50 am

    Hey Andrew,

    Our support for dictators, corrupt political leaders, crooked elections across the continent is legendary.

    Even where we send in judges to “review” elections those reports are, er, secret!

    If we cannot let people decide their futures through free and fair elections of course we’re responsible in large part for the chaos, the human rights violations and disasters which follow.

    In the total context our soldiers are being sent in to die to protect the narrow interests of a few political and business leaders.

    While it’s not dissimilar to what the US in particular has been doing across the Middle East – we’ve seen the consequence of those policies on the West and in the ME.

    South Africa is not the US – we’re a tiny little country on the southern most tip of Africa with a relatively small, largely unskilled population neighboured by many, what may soon be, hostile countries.

    Let’s stop pretending that we have any kind of meaningful military might – at best we are equipped in terms of skills and resources to chase away a few illegal fishing vessels from our coastal waters.

    If MPs stop being such assholes we can strengthen our position politically in the continent and protect our people in doing so.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 11:06 am

    “OZBlue. I don’t approve of our troops being there without proper justification, which has not been forthcoming. ”

    So fundamentally you disagree with the age old concept of multilateralism, where is the UN, UA or SADC justification for any military involvement on foreign soils.

    http://www.polity.org.za/article/iraq-war-a-blow-to-multilateralism-mbeki-2003-03-20

    “Zuma and the AU, though, clearly see the international community’s response to Libya as a failure of multilateralism. As Zuma said at the joint press conference with Stoltenberg yesterday, South Africa felt that the UN should have taken the lead from the start in the international community’s military response.

    Instead, he said, not even Nato had really taken the lead. It was rather individual countries like France and the UK which had done so. This sort of individualism was undermining multilateralism, he strongly implied.”

    But know we have turned ourselves into Team RSA, policing the rest of Africa?

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 10:50 am

    Hayibo Andrew,

    “The first is that we have peacekeepers in other parts of Africa.”

    Peacekeepers???

    What are you smoking dude?

    The CAR is one of the world’s least developed countries, with an annual per capita income at purchasing power parity (PPP) of only US$ 750 in 2009.(5) The African country is sparsely populated, landlocked and mostly agrarian; however, it is also endowed with abundant natural resources in the form of diamonds, cobalt, gold, uranium, copper and other minerals, most of which remain largely un- or under exploited.

    Even the presidency’s continued involvement in the diamond business has led a former Central African politician to say “Central African heads of state are first and foremost diamond merchants.”</b?(15) The state’s involvement – and its associated elitist greed – in the mining industry has been a reason why the proceeds from the diamonds have failed to trickle down to the majority of citizens at the bottom of the socio-economic sphere. While the greatest example of this presidential parasitism is Jean-Bédel Bokassa,(16) current President François Bozizé keeps tight control of the diamond industry to enrich and empower his own Gbaya ethnic group and does little to alleviate poverty that drives informal miners to dig in dangerous conditions. As a result, poverty and crime remain hallmarks of the diamond sector, and ties between diamonds and conflict in the CAR have strengthened.

    http://www.polity.org.za/article/the-central-african-republics-diamond-mining-industry-misguided-governance-and-foreign-involvement-2011-02-28

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 10:50 am

    Hayibo Andrew,

    “The first is that we have peacekeepers in other parts of Africa.”

    Peacekeepers???

    What are you smoking dude?

    The CAR is one of the world’s least developed countries, with an annual per capita income at purchasing power parity (PPP) of only US$ 750 in 2009.(5) The African country is sparsely populated, landlocked and mostly agrarian; however, it is also endowed with abundant natural resources in the form of diamonds, cobalt, gold, uranium, copper and other minerals, most of which remain largely un- or under exploited.

    Even the presidency’s continued involvement in the diamond business has led a former Central African politician to say “Central African heads of state are first and foremost diamond merchants.”(15) The state’s involvement – and its associated elitist greed – in the mining industry has been a reason why the proceeds from the diamonds have failed to trickle down to the majority of citizens at the bottom of the socio-economic sphere. While the greatest example of this presidential parasitism is Jean-Bédel Bokassa,(16) current President François Bozizé keeps tight control of the diamond industry to enrich and empower his own Gbaya ethnic group and does little to alleviate poverty that drives informal miners to dig in dangerous conditions. As a result, poverty and crime remain hallmarks of the diamond sector, and ties between diamonds and conflict in the CAR have strengthened.

    http://www.polity.org.za/article/the-central-african-republics-diamond-mining-industry-misguided-governance-and-foreign-involvement-2011-02-28

  • Zoo Keeper

    Andrew

    The rebels are an irregular army, which lacks the discipline and training of a regular standing army.

    The result should be expected that a smaller regular force should hold off the much larger irregular force.

    Unfortunately, it seems our guys were sent there on a partisan mission, not as peacekeepers. We have no business in the internal affairs of the CAR.

    I don’t buy the training angle for one minute at all either. You certainly don’t deploy hundreds of regular troops on a “training mission” when the situation is deteriorating fast. Training missions are different, because training personnel are sent over, usually to instruct only. They would not ordinarily be sent with their own machine guns either – they’d be instructing the locals how to use their own.

    If we were peacekeeping, we still need mechanized infantry, heavy weapons and air cover. It seems the planners in the SANDF cannot comprehend or plan a mission properly. If the budget is not available to support the mission, the mission simply does not go ahead.

    In fact, without in-flight re-fueling capability (mothballed because of Arms Deal costs), we should not be sending troops out of range of our air cover. I.e. not beyond our borders at all!

    Not to mention that we cannot even afford to fit a single missile, bomb or bullet in our Gripens FFS. (The Gripen is a wonderful machine by the way: we bought well, we’re just not funding them properly).

    The SANDF, under guidance of JZ as Commander in Chief, have sent very good soldiers into a suicidal situation. This is nowhere better illustrated than the panicked response to getting the troops out. The SANDF haven’t got a fucking clue how to get them out! There should have been a plan in place with the equipment on standby.

    These guys were dropped into a volatile situation, growing more dangerous by the day, to take sides without sufficient weaponry, ammunition or support. Very, very basic military doctrine was not followed – even a command & conquer computer geek could and would have done better.

    What is also forgotten is that the projection of a strong military is vital for foreign affairs and domestic security. All we are doing is showing the continent we are the weakest and worst led military force in Africa.

    What happened is nothing short of criminal on all fronts.

    But the ANC will not be punished at the polls for this, of that we can be sure. The cognitive dissonance which characterizes our voting cattle will see to another decade of the ANC. All we can do is rant a bit so we feel better.

  • Andrew

    Maggs I agree with most of what you say, so I will only comment on those things we seem to have different views.

    “Let’s stop pretending that we have any kind of meaningful military might – at best we are equipped in terms of skills and resources to chase away a few illegal fishing vessels from our coastal waters.”

    Actually this is not correct. We do have a big Force by SADC standards. We have 24 grippens with probably close to 12/more Grippen Qualified Pilots. (Forget the DA nonsense about having only six. We have more in the reserve force). We also have the Hawk lead-in fighter trainers which can be deployed in conflicts. We have 12 Rooivalk helicopters…….. This is just the airforce…..

    ‘…we are equipped in terms of skills…’

    It may interest you that as far as I am aware, our subs have only once been ‘found’ once in an exercise with a British Task Force in over 30 years of training exercises.

    I always wonder how we know that we do not have the military skills or that the soldiers are badly trained?

    OBZ. There may be justifiable instances where we may have to act on our own. Let’s say we eventually get electricty from the hydro-electric project in ..is it the DRC? If such a facility is threatened and hence our daily comforts of hot water and working factories, it may well be justified to sent an intervention force…..to protect OUR INTEREST .i.e SA’s

  • Andrew

    Zooks, I think we are mostly in agreement. The fact that the rebels are not a conventional fighting force did cross my mind and as you suggest probably contributed to the soldiers ability to hold them off. You do have to fight the enemy that pitch up though. You don’t get to insist they must be professional.

    Maggs, I am talking about peacekeepers on the rest of the continent. The CAR deployment was obviously not a peace keeping mission or training mission for that matter!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 11:44 am

    “If such a facility is threatened and hence our daily comforts of hot water and working factories, it may well be justified to sent an intervention force…..to protect OUR INTEREST .i.e SA’s”

    More or less the same rationale behind much of colonial and neocolonial imperialism? Take the USA invasion of Panama for example. What if China or India decides the nationalisation of minerals in Africa threaten THEIR INTEREST – especially if Chinese government or state companies supplied the capital for its beneficiation.

    Do they have the unilateral right to get involved in “internal conflicts”?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Andrew

    Definitely. Whilst you can only fight what pitches up at your gates, it is also solid doctrine to only fight when its 10-1 in your favour – Sun Tzu.

  • Mike

    @Andrew – you are missing the point of what was crucial to the SADF in Angola and that is you must always have air cover support.
    The reason the SADF did not chase the Cuban Fapla force after repelling this attack at Cuito Cuanavale is because the SA Airforce only had 3 minutes of combat time over the area with underbelly tanks and they had inaddition lost air dominance with the MIG 25 being introduced into the arena.
    Air cover is vital and our troops in CAR were simply there a bait.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 11:44 am

    Andrew,

    Zuma, in his better days, once said “Don’t fight unless you have to. When you have to fight make sure it’s not in the terrain set by the enemy. As far as is possible keep talking. As long as you’re talking there’s no fighting” (ore thereabouts.

    It seems that he has now abandoned his own wisdom – in pursuit of a “better life for a few”.

    But here’s the thing – we may well be ready to protect ourselves from a small military incursion from say a rag-tag army from say Burundi or a bunch of Somali pirates invading us from the Indian Ocean on their little kayaks.

    We’re hardly capable of defending ourselves militarily from say the UK?

    Sending in our best trained, well equipped soldiers to war requires the confidence and support of the entire nation – this CAR excursion is anywhere near that.

    Our soldiers were sent to die (ill-prepared, ill-equipped, ill-informed) to protect the private interests of a few – our people were not sent to war. They were sent as cannon-fodder, an early-warning system – giving their lives so that a thug-turned-president could get enough time to flee.

    There’s not much more to this!

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    March 27, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    Mike

    “they had inaddition lost air dominance with the MIG 25 being introduced into the arena.”

    Tell the truth Mike – your SADF shat themselves scared and like the little cowards they were, they put their tails between their legs and ran away.

    Unlike our brave liberation fighters who fought them till their last man didn’t stand!

    SADF – pah. It’s a waste of good cyberspace to even mention them.

    :P

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Once we venture into Africa based on the doctrine of unilateralism and “self-interest” we are navigating a dangerous slippery slope. Africa is as unstable as it used to be back in 1960, we have more foreign self-interest in pursuit of resources than ever before and we do not have the military power to survive any repercussions or “blow back” in the long term.

    Further I have very little confidence in our diplomatic strategists (as I have in government) to grasp the long term consequence of whatever imperialistic ventures they believe we should embark on now.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/sa-army-is-unravelling-1.453636 (August, 2009)

    “The SA National Defence Force is in an “appalling” state of readiness. It could not handle much beyond the most trivial crisis, experts and politicians say. Despite the purchase of big-ticket items in the controversial arms deal, the defence force is “unravelling” rapidly.

    They blame ageing equipment, a skills shortage and the lack of a budget to match the increasing demands being made on the force.

    “Defence Minister Lindiwe Sisulu has expressed happiness with the readiness of the defence force,” says Jane’s Defence Weekly Southern Africa correspondent Helmoed-Romer Heitman. “The reality is that the state of readiness is appalling: The SANDF is in no way capable of handling anything but the most minor crisis.” Heitman says the present SANDF could not mount an effective intervention to stabilise Zimbabwe or rescue its peacekeeping troops in places such as Darfur.”

  • Mike

    @Maggs – There are plenty of those ex SADF troops around, so why dont you come out of your hole and take them on publicaly that they were cowards and then we will see what a brave indian you are.
    Maybe you need to stay off the Mainstay because this last blog of yours was really an act of bravery is it not.
    If MK was so effective how come so many of their leaders ended up on Robben Island and in prison, well I will answer that for you, they sold each other out and many of informants for the NAT goverment, which includes a good deal of indians, are now in the ANC goverment.
    The TRC was a clear indication that MK got Klapped, it is just that De Klerk did not have the stomach to resolve matters the African way.

  • Andrew

    Maggs, Mike, Zooks and OB, I’m interested to hear your views on the way forward for the SANDF.

    Note not SANDF in CAR, but just on how we get a professional Force to the required standards.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    March 27, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    Awww Mike,

    “@Maggs – There are plenty of those ex SADF troops around, so why dont you come out of your hole and take them on publicaly that they were cowards and then we will see what a brave indian you are.”

    Hurt your feeling did I. Sorry, ne!

    (Just kidding, I meant to).

    Look here dude – This is about as public as it gets. My details are not hidden behind cyberspace.

    So those “brave killers” get to know full well what I think of their valiant efforts at murdering our people and keeping amongst the worst of crimes against humanity alive for as long as it lasted.

    Of course there were enemies of the people who invaded the progressive, liberation movements – planted there by the evil apartheid regime. And de Klerk destroyed all traces by destroying tons and tons and tons of documents before he capitulated before the mighty armies of of heroes!

    Remember the oke (brave soldier) that did feet washing, eh?

    Bullshit that the MK got klapped – all your “soldiers” did was kill harmless women and children. Cowards that they were.

    Useless fuckers I say!

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    Andrew – the best defence force is one which does not need to go to war.

    Post war Japan is testimony to that.

    Anyway – there’s no evidence that anyone wants to invade us militarily.

    But there is evidence that we’re interfering adversely in the affairs of other people.

    We may need a small, skilled, appropriately equipped professional army.

    But deploying huge resources as we do is counter to our transformation and constitutional projects.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    I find it sad that not a single contributor is prepared to stand up for our brave men and women in CAR, who fought off thousands of ferocious BANDITS, until they (the BANDITS), raised the white flag of surrender. President Zuma appreciates, I think, that South Africa has a MANIFEST DESTINY to bring peace and UBUNTU across Africa! In that, he has my full support.

    Thanks

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
  • Zoo Keeper

    Andrew

    CAR is emblematic of the problems in the SANDF.

    Two things immediately – properly qualified military leaders which means no cadres, no AA. Only merit promotions (there will always be a hint of politics but this has to be pursued at all costs). The lack of quality leadership is what led to this mess – not even a basic hint of planning evident in CAR.

    Budgetary allocation is pathetically inadequate. All our kit must have the funds to be operational.

    Once those are addressed you can look at something more, but those two are critical.

    Pretty soon, we’re going to have to replace all our corvettes, subs and Gripens because we’ve destroyed them.

    We’ll be left with aging ratels and machine guns in the medium term. Who knows if our artillery is still operational. Bob Mugabe could walk over the border today and straight into the Union Buildings if he really wanted to.

    The military is an important source of national pride too. Nothing builds pride quicker than a powerful military. The old SADF was very good and the whites are still proud of it – nothing the revisionists say will shake that pride from them.

    Imagine the national pride if the operation had been fully supported and the rebels massacred, ending the conflict. “Don’t fuck with us” engenders far more pride than a rugby world cup, and this is not appreciated.

    But because of the ANC’s failures, Arms Deal 2 is coming to a scandal near you… inevitably.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 27, 2013 at 13:18 pm

    “And now we want to intervene militarily in Zimbabwe???”

    No. We are attempting to arm ZANU-PF [to help kill those Boers]?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    MK never got klapped because it never came out to fight in the first place. SWAPO took many a hammering though.

    Planting bombs in bars and Wimpy’s was all they could do because taking on the SADF toe-to-toe would have been a suicide mission for MK.

    Otherwise, why didn’t they mass at the borders and attack of they were so overwhelmingly powerful?

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    March 27, 2013 at 13:41 pm

    Hayibo ZooKy,

    p.s. (not post script but pre script) You’re eavesdropping on my entertainment time with Mike. :P

    Anyway as far as I know MK were never intended as a conventional military force. Rather like a lot of annoying mosquitoes to keep the apartheid regime (which was supported by the western nations) busy fighting shadows while preparing for a transition to democracy.

    The strategy worked.

    Mike’s rag-tag SADF got dissolved without the effervescence of Enos – they quietly disappeared like ghosts in the night, with not even a final whimper.

    They may have won a few battles – but that’s irrelevant in the larger picture. It’s winning the war that counts.

    Guess who won that war in the end?

    p.s. Now that we succeeded in overturning the evil apartheid regime – we’re emulating the shit that they did.

    Let’s see – our DEMOCRATIC government kills it’s own people, eats its children, invades other countries to steal their resources, joins forces with the enemy to overthrow former friends, takes care of despots, has a visible anti-human rights character, neglects the poor and needy among us …

    Oh and like the apartheid state – our leaders loot wherever and whenever they can.

    And then there’s parliament – wanking …

    So we’ve done pretty well in taking over!!!!!!!!!

  • Mike

    @Maggs – The “brave soldier” washing Chikane’s feet was actually a civilian in charge of the police.
    Big difference, so instead of trying to impart your lack of knowledge on what actually took place with the SADF in Angola, go and tend to the curry because I can smell that it is burning.
    The Soviet Union supplied 8miilion land mines in Angola, one for each member of the population, the biggest land mine field in Africa is in Angola, so dont come with your bullshit about the proxies of the “liberation forces”.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mike
    March 27, 2013 at 14:15 pm

    “The Soviet Union supplied”

    I have explained to you that never happened.

    There was never a “Cold War”. The entire history of mankind is one epic struggle against White Supremacy and it was called Apartheid.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    March 27, 2013 at 14:15 pm

    Mike,

    “go and tend to the curry because I can smell that it is burning.”

    It’s not the curry that you smell burning – it’s your backside!

    Ok Mike – we’ll settle it with a question.

    In the war between the apartheid state and the liberation movements, in the end who won?

    Let’s see how smart you really are!

  • Paul Kearney

    It’s a sad business but for a long time leaders have led from well to the rear and used gullible younsters as cannon fodder. This is no different. Trying to defend yourself when you are a glorified security guard is not easy. The US found out in Somalia that attack, particularly without armoured vehicles but even with air support, is even more tricky. The SANDF maybe relearnt these lessons in CAF? The French have probably learnt them the hard way.

    By most accounts, the SANDF soldiers had limited equipment, intelligence and experience and no support. If the rebels had been an organised army the SA soldiers may have all been killed or captured. If the SANDF contingent had been consolidated, better equipped, supported, protected, experienced and informed they may have held off an attack from ragtag rebels until relieved? and without causalties.

    @Mags; “Tell the truth Mike – your SADF shat themselves scared and like the little cowards they were, they put their tails between their legs and ran away.” Maybe the SANDF hasn’t changed much. Not only did these guys run, they begged the French to cover them.

    Not unlike the brave Nehru Navy with its gum boats. All talk, no action.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Zoo Keeper, I’d appreciate it if you stopped schooling the ANC about the necessity of air cover!

    Zoo Keeper says:
    March 27, 2013 at 11:20 am

  • Jeffman

    Two words-Mining Rights

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Paul Kearney
    March 27, 2013 at 14:37 pm

    Hayibo Paul

    “Not unlike the brave Nehru Navy with its gum boats. All talk, no action.”

    And what happened to the British?

    I heard that they ran away from India – it is true?

    p.s. It’s not Nehru whom you should be celebrating as a coward – it’s the little pervert Gandhi!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 27, 2013 at 15:13 pm

    “And what happened to the British?
    I heard that they ran away from India – it is true?”

    Apparently they become paranoid and felt outnumbered by 1.1 billion “beastly” Guptas?

    “The Gupta Empire (Sanskrit: गुप्त साम्राज्य, Gupta Sāmrājya) was an ancient Indian empire which existed from approximately 320 to 550 CE and covered much of the Indian Subcontinent.[1] Founded by Maharaja Sri Gupta, the dynasty is a model of a classical civilization.[2] The peace and prosperity created under the leadership of the Guptas enabled the pursuit of scientific and artistic endeavors.[3] This period is called the Golden Age of India[4] and was marked by extensive inventions and discoveries in science, technology, engineering, art, dialectic, literature, logic, mathematics, astronomy, religion and philosophy that crystallized the elements of what is generally known as Hindu culture.[5]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta_Empire

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    March 27, 2013 at 15:19 pm

    LOL OB!

    Well spotted.

    So Paul and Mike – the Guptas outsmarted the British EMPIRE, then they allowed the good guys aka the ANC to outmaneuver the evil apartheid regime.

    When the dust settled they despatched their best and brightest to take over South Africa as a private empire.

    Now while we all pretend to go through the motions of elections every five years, have 400 MPs in parliament, ANCs national policy conference – the President and other key decision makers get summonsed to the Saxonwold Compound to get regular instructions and directives (and, as Madame Zille told us, the most delicious meals ever).

    These okes are cleverer than Amichand Rajbansi and Vivian Reddy (both of whom got lots of money from pretending to be friends of while milking the apartheid state while they were really under cover in support of regime-change).

  • MikeA

    A few questions (c’mon Prof, give us some feedback):

    - Did the President fulfil his constitutional duty to inform Parliament within the required time frame?
    - Does parliament have a constitutional duty to apply its mind to such a decision by the President?
    - What does the term “international obligations” mean? Does there have to be a formal treaty already in place and ratified correctly, or can (ex?) President Bozize call his chum, Jake (no disrespect intended), and ask for a bit of help?
    - Therefore, is the deployment more deeply unlawful than the issue of informing Parliament?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    Won’t make a difference! :)

    I remember many years ago I spoke to a military man from the old days, he said one should take note of the locations of the townships and their layouts, from later years (1950s and 1960s)

    Something to do with bombing runs he said…

  • Gwebecimele

    This noise will also pass. Bring on the BRICS Party!!

  • Gwebecimele

    Only in SA!! The Moz taxi driver was “saved” by a single video clip in crowd.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/man-beaten-to-death-at-rugby-after-party-1.1492382

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    WHat revulsion that family must feel at anything South African!

    What a thuglike nation we are!

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 27, 2013 at 16:53 pm

  • Andrew

    Zooks re the military leadership, the following. I agree with what you say except, I believe AA could still work, but that’s a discussion for another day.

    Where do people get it that the Generals are incompetent? It is very possible that they asked for more equipment and soldiers but were denied by the Commander In Chief.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    March 27, 2013 at 17:11 pm

    Interesting. So now previous ANC policies are to blame.

    “Madlanga continued reading: “Demilitarisation requires changes in the police insignia, military ranks and force orders, to create a civil police service as a first stage of community policing.”

    So back comes the good ole bobby armed with a baton only. Against psychotic gangs of AK-47 wielding thugs? High on muti and drugs.

    Our White liberals will be exuberant. Still live in their Euro-Disneyland wonderland bubble. Where there are no rebel forces, no regular coups, no petty African dictators, no dead South African soldiers.

    Viva the dead revolution. Viva. Cause it is over now.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Andrew
    March 27, 2013 at 19:48 pm

    Andrew,

    “It is very possible that they asked for more equipment and soldiers but were denied by the Commander In Chief.”

    That sound probable.

    It seems that our people were deployed for the specific purpose of protecting the dictator and creating sufficient diversion to allow him to escape.

    Then they were disposable!

  • Andrew

    Maggs you hit it on the head. Saw on enca that we are building up troops Uganda .

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Yeah right!!!

    You know who you can tell that to Mr Chie Whip. (Brett will explain).

    Chief Whip Mathole Motshekga said the ANC’s founding values supported the struggle for a humane, just, equitable, democratic, and free world.

    “In particular, the development and prosperity of Africa remains the central objective of the government’s international perspective and policy for purposes of advancing the African Renaissance,” he said.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Defence-insists-wasnt-overruled-on-CAR-20130327

  • John Roberts

    Maggs is correct.

    SWEET FUCKALL WILL HAPPEN.

    You heard it here first. And Dworky I am quite happy to participate in your “What will happen?” seminar.

    I think it’s time Pierre changed his title to that of Professor of Useless Piece of Paper Law.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “In particular, the development and prosperity of Africa remains the central objective of the government’s international perspective and policy for purposes of advancing the African Renaissance,” he said.”

    Well then at least we can say those soldiers died for a bigger cause. Or should we rather say they were sacrificed – on the holy altar of the African Renaissance, being not informed or perhaps also incapable of comprehending what that is supposed to mean or consent much like lambs to the slaughter house.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Upington – A South African soldier who was fighting in the Central African Republic and was desperate to come home had called his family only hours before he was shot dead.”

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Defence-insists-wasnt-overruled-on-CAR-20130327

  • Paul Kearney

    lol Mags; everyone is running from someone!

    Off topic I know but Nehru’s navy threat (“hold me back or I’ll kill him”) has been seen by some as partly the reason that the SADF started to get expanded in the 60′s, including defensive work at Walvis Bay.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    I’ve told you all many times this NSA is going to end in tears.

    Despite what Andrew says my gut says General Idi Amin Dada was talking out his ass. The Zulu power herders are creating myths. Quite apart from and complimentary to ass-covering. uHlonipho and all that. None of us really know what happened but if the regimes says one thing I am instructed by my gut first to rule out the exact opposite. Perhaps JZ views this as his private business again. ‘We’ just take care of the costs of the security arrangements despite pesky white tendencies like De Vos squealing about R75 000 limits.

    The ANC could give a fukk about the rules of the game or playing by them. They think you’re all a bunch of pussies who are powerless to do anything about it. Welcome to my world.

    Answer me this: Why is JZ building up troops in Uganda? Who really, really wants assurances their interests in CAR are safe?

    This is Zimbabwe 1999. I’ve told you the ANC are lapsing bilateral trade agreements guaranteeing minimum human rights standards.

    Follow the diamonds. I love the little fkrs too – because they symbolise human folly.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 28, 2013 at 8:10 am

    Look at the upside. For the first time in decades South Africans and this blog are opening their eyes to what happens elsewhere in Africa, instead of this myopic obsession with Apartheid, the continuous blaming game directed at White people and the uniqueness of South Africa.

    “In conclusion, I wish to state that the Africanists do not at all subscribe to the fashionable doctrine of South African exceptionalism. Our contention is that South Africa is an integral part of the indivisible whole that is Afrika. She cannot solve her problems in isolation from and with utter disregard of the rest of the continent. It is precisely for that reason that we reject both apartheid and so-called multi-racialism as solutions of our socio-economic problems.

    Apart from the number of reasons and arguments that can be advanced against apartheid, we take our stand on the principle that Afrika is one and desires to be one and nobody, I repeat, nobody has the right to balkanise our land.”

    http://www.sahistory.org.za/archive/robert-sobukwe-inaugural-speech-april-1959

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Pierre, Maggs, and all the other skeptics out there: I TOLD you our objective in CAR was to advance UBUNTU. Now it has been officially confirmed:

    “ANC rushed to defend the decision to deploy troops to CAR. In a statement, the Chief Whip Mathole Motshekga said the party’s founding values supported the struggle for a humane, just, equitable, democratic, and free world.”

  • Maggs Naidu – JR is right SFW will happen! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 28, 2013 at 8:40 am

    Dworky,

    UBUNTU my ass!

    The details are now emerging why our people were sent to die …

    AS pressure builds on President Jacob Zuma to explain South Africa’s military involvement in the war-torn Central African Republic, it has emerged that companies with links to influential politicians and businessmen are gunning for oil and mineral deals in the region.

    At least one company, Divine Inspiration Group Oil – owned by influential businesswoman Andrea Brown – is currently operating in the CAR.

    Brown, who is the sole director of the company, is a key business partner with Encha Group, an investment company founded by Tiego Moseneke, brother of current Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke. She also acted as a consultant or worked with the government in the drafting of BEE legislation.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2013/03/28/scramble-for-car-minerals

  • Maggs Naidu – JR is right SFW will happen! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    And more kak!

    South African military involvement in the Central African Republic has from the start been entwined with ANC-linked deals, raising questions about the motivation for the disastrous deployment of South African troops to the troubled country.

    The figure at the centre of the web is the politically connected businessperson and fixer Didier Pereira.

    Pereira is currently partnered to the ANC security supremo and fundraiser, Paul Langa, and former spy chief Billy Masetlha. Their group has initiated several business projects in CAR, including some involving diamonds

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-28-00-central-african-republic-is-this-what-our-soldiers-died-for

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – JR is right SFW will happen! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 28, 2013 at 8:44 am

    That is the pattern maggs. The only Whites who are still in the ANC or vote for them are rich, corrupt Whites who can buy/bribe privilege for favour. You see my theory is White privilege is closely correlated with Black corruption. There seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship.

    I guess the same goes for Guptas.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    And it looks like Madiba is not going to make it through another African winter.

    Nelson Mandela back in hospital with lung infection

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21963864

  • Zoo Keeper

    Andrew

    The military is majority black – AA is pointless in that situation. There is no excuse for it anymore, except to ensure cadres get up the ladder.

    The military sent those poor guys into a suicidal situation. No use blaming JZ – JZ has to take the political heat. JZ will not suffer at all as he rules the roost so the only accountability will be in the generalship.

    We lost special forces soldiers too – these guys don’t grow on trees and cost an absolute fortune to develop. Although they undertake the most dangerous of missions, they also plan the missions as thoroughly as possible and resource the missions effectively – the key is always a get-out-of-jail card. They need an extraction point at all times.

    Our guys are only thinking extraction now!!

    The main point though is why are they there? Whose interests and assets are being protected? Did these guys die for ANC wealth? I really hope not.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Andrew

    The SANDF top brass has to take the fall – just seen some stuff where they say they weren’t overruled.

    If they were not overruled they are incompetent and must be replaced.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Zoo Keeper
    March 28, 2013 at 10:10 am

    “The military is majority black – AA is pointless in that situation. There is no excuse for it anymore, except to ensure cadres get up the ladder.”

    It doesn’t matter. Government middle class jobs as well as working class jobs in general are occupied almost exclusively by Blacks still we don’t see a let or relaxation on AA in those areas. I.e. although the “demographics” are already corrected Whites are still excluded by race.

    http://ewn.co.za/2012/09/07/Mboweni-Non-racialism-dream-under-threat

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    That’s because white people still benefit, even if they are the 10th generation after the fall of Apartheid, they are still benefitting.

    If that’s bad for white SA, imagine how much the Italians must owe Europe for the Romans?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    While there are legitimate questions to be asked, I view most of the criticism of Mr Zuma’s peace-keeping in CAR as AFRO-PESSIMISTIC.

    If you read the M&G of this morning, you will see the wholesale rejection of the principle of AFRICAN SOLUTIONS FOR AFRICAN PROBLEMS!

    Thanks

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 28, 2013 at 11:44 am

    Hey Dworky,

    Dmwangi is gone AWOL!

    If you see him please tell him that I’m looking for him.

    I want to apologise for insulting him.

  • Andrew

    Zooks definitely, if the generals really came up with that operational plan, they are surely incompetent and must go.

    AA to me does not mean incompetent, it means those with potential gets an opportunity. Clearly, being a general should never be an AA appointment

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Andrew
    March 28, 2013 at 16:46 pm

    Andrew,

    “AA to me does not mean incompetent, it means those with potential gets an opportunity. ”

    Well said!

    Although in appointing police commissioners, the post Mandela administrations seem to have deliberately appointed incompetents – maybe so that they can loot state coffers and get away with it.