Constitutional Hill

Cardinal Napier, you have a moral and legal duty to report sexual abuse

The Catholic Church has rightly been criticised for its handling of the widespread sexual abuse of children by priests across the world. In order to protect the “good name” of the church, many abusers were never reported to the police but were sent for “treatment” and counselling before being “redeployed” by the church to other positions. Some of them then went on to abuse other children. Unfortunately Cardinal Wilfred Napier, who has dealt with such cases in South Africa, seems to be unaware that if he fails to report those priests to the police he is committing a criminal offence and exposing himself to a 5 year prison sentence.

In a controversial interview with a BBC radio journalist, Cardinal Napier indicated that when he dealt with cases in which priests have sexually abused children, he followed a protocol developed by the Church itself. He insisted that each case was referred to the Doctrine of the Faith office and the Pope. Cardinal Napier seems to believe that the Church is the victim of unfair publicity. In the interview  he complained:

I really would resent it if someone said to me you mishandled that case. Some of the priests went, according to the wisdom of the time, the best information that we had from psychologists, they went for treatment, came back and have been under – what we call it – personal surveillance and have functioned quite normally ever since. Others left the priesthood, they were laicised, but it depended on each case being handled differently because of the peoples conditions were different.

Nowhere in the interview does he say that he actually reported any priests who have confessed that he sexually abused children to the police. Instead, displaying an admirable understanding and compassion for abusers (an understanding and compassion not displayed towards others involved in consensual and often loving sexual behaviour), he argued that such priests act out of a defect in their own character and that they are not necessarily culpable for what they did.

In the interview Cardinal Napier explicitly states that he is not qualified himself to say whether such priests should be held criminally liable or not. They might be held criminally liable. They might not be criminally liable. But that is for others to decide and is not a concern of the Cardinal. He would rather not think about whether the criminal justice system should deal with such priests or not.

His certainty about sexual matters – including about the alleged “evils” of contraception, abortion and homosexuality – suddenly gives way for an admirable doubt. If only Cardinal Napier could conjure up the same doubt when pontificating about consensual adult sexual behaviour and about the right of women to make decisions about their own bodies and about reproduction – but priests can’t fall pregnant, so this is probably too much to ask.

When pushed by the BBC interviewer about whether there was a duty to report the sexual abuse of children by priests to the police, the Cardinal (rather shockingly) makes the following claim:

That depends on what country you were in. For instances in our country, in South Africa, there was no way I as bishop could have accused somebody and reported the case and made a case with the police. It would have to be the victim themselves who would have to make the case against the person and only then could the justice system kick in. I don’t see how you could say that if the victim then said we don’t want this thing to go to the police, how can you then say the Church is mishandling the thing by respecting the victim’s own request. I think we’ve got to be fair and not generalise.

This statement is patently false. In terms of section 42 of the Criminal Procedure Act any private person is legally entitled without a warrant to arrest any person “whom he reasonably suspects of having committed” a Schedule 1 offence. Schedule 1 offences include any sexual offence against a child. This means the Cardinal had the legal right to arrest any of the offending priests at the moment that he was told by that priest or anybody else about the abuse. To my knowledge no priest was ever arrested and handed over to the police in this manner. Why not? What kind of perverse moral worldview drives a Bishop or Cardinal to deal with allegations of sexual abuse against children without involving the police?

One of the big problems with child sexual abuse is that adults purporting to act in the interest of children (but often acting in their own interest) often put pressure on the child not to report sexual abuse. A child is by its very nature vulnerable and cannot always make an informed decision about such matters. On the other hand, a Bishop or a Cardinal (as well as the child’s parents who might very well be in awe of the Bishop or the Cardinal) serve in a position of great authority vis-à-vis the child. The Cardinal or the Bishop may also have an undue influence on the parents of an abused child as they might very well hold the revered Church leader in awe. In these circumstances a Bishop or a Cardinal who is required to deal with allegations of sexual abuse of a child by a Priest has an enormous responsibility to do so in the best interest of society and not in the interest of the Church.

The problem is that a Bishop or Cardinal dealing with such cases will invariably be conflicted. On the one hand, he will have a duty to protect the Church and the priests. On the one hand he will have a moral and legal duty to protect the child (and other children who might in future fall prey to an abusing priest). For any moral person, this should not be much of a conflict at all as the best way to protect children is to report the abuser to the police and to ensure that he is successfully prosecuted and sent to prison for the abuse. Where this is not done (often based on the claim that the disempowered and traumatised child did not want to press charges), the Bishop or Cardinal manages to protect the Church to the detriment of the abused child and to all other children who in future may potential fall victim to the abusing priest.

This is exactly why section 54 of the new Sexual Offenses Act (adopted in 2007) now requires anyone “who has knowledge that a sexual offence has been committed against a child” to “report such knowledge immediately to a police official”. A person who fails to report such knowledge, is guilty of an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding five years or to both a fine and such imprisonment.

The Act cannot have any retrospective effect. But from the moment the Act came into force, the Cardinal had an obligation to report his knowledge of all cases of child sexual abuse by priests to the police – even those cases that occurred before the Act came into effect. If he had failed to do so, he would be guilty of a crime and could be arrested and prosecuted for failing to adhere to the law. It is unclear whether Cardinal Napier has indeed reported his knowledge of all cases of child sexual; abuse by priests to the police. Judging from his false statement above, he may very well not have done so. If this is true, it would mean that he has committed one or more criminal offenses and could be prosecuted.

In Smit v Van Niekerk the Appellate Division (as it then was) found that members of the clergy do not enjoy a special privilege not to divulge information given to them in the line of their duties. For technical reasons the Constitutional Court (in S v Bierman) declined to revisit this rule when it came before it. This means that in our law somebody like Cardinal Napier does not enjoy any special privilege regarding any confession made to him (either during the confessional or outside it as part of his administrative duties) and he cannot legally refuse to report serious allegations of child sexual abuse by any priest to the police on the basis that the allegations were made to a priest and are therefore privileged.

If the police was serious about the protection of children against child sexual abuse and about the prosecution of offenders, it would of course raid the Cardinal’s offices and take him in for questioning in an attempt to uncover all cases of child sexual abuse by priests in South Africa and then to prosecute those cases where a winnable case could be built. But this would not be necessary if Cardinal Napier fulfilled his legal duty and on his return to South Africa immediately reports his knowledge of all child sexual abuse cases by priests to the police.

  • Drx

    I think it was Smit v Van Niekerk, not Smith

  • Pierre De Vos

    Thanks, fixed.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “This means that in our law somebody like Cardinal Napier does not enjoy any special privilege regarding any confession made to him (either during the confessional or outside it as part of his administrative duties) and he cannot legally refuse to report serious allegations of child sexual abuse by any priest to the police on the basis that the allegations were made to a priest and are therefore privileged.”

    So does that apply psychologists and psychoanalyst too. Lets say a sexual abuser confesses on the couch?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    So I always wonder how does the sexual dynamics in the male hierarchy of the Catholic church differ from the age old Greek tradition of pederasty.

    Would Socrates also be in the dock today?

  • Justin

    To the extent that Cardinal Napier was saying that pedophilia is a blameless sexual preference he is obviously right. How is a man who has an innate sexual attraction to children (provided he doesn’t act on this desire) any more culpable than a homosexual who is attracted to other men?

  • Joey

    @justin consensual sex between adults is OK no?

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Justin
    March 19, 2013 at 17:07 pm

    Eish!

    More twisted than paedophilia is equating/comparing homosexuality to it.

    Get help dude.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @maggs

    In most cultures, homosexuality as a mode of sexuality is not much more than limited to adolescent development i.e masturbation. It was only in ancient Greece that it evolved into an acute manifestation of male supremacism/misogeny. And still with us today in either overt or supressed forms.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    ozoneblue
    March 19, 2013 at 21:33 pm

    OB – the merits of that aside, paedophilia is a crime.

    The Cardinal needs to see a shrink!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @maggs

    Sorry – please define “peadophillia”. How is it different from the sex lives of Socrates or Gayomatres – the intellectual forefathers of our Constitution?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozoneblue

    “…the sex lives of Socrates or Gayomatres – the intellectual forefathers of our Constitution?”

    I am no scholar, but I must say I am puzzled at the suggestion that Gayomatres is our “intellectual forefather.” I would say that Sodomos of Tarsus and Priapus of Phillipi made more significant contributions to the development a discourse of alterity in the eastern Mediterrian in the 1st century after the death of our Lord!

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 19, 2013 at 23:25 pm

    With all sorts of respek mfd.

    I have never heard of “Sodomos of Tarsus”. From which holy book was he again?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Ah ok – it was Samuel 18.

    “And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
    2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father’s house.
    3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
    4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
    5 And David went out whithersoever Saul sent him, and behaved himself wisely: and Saul set him over the men of war, and he was accepted in the sight of all the people, and also in the sight of Saul’s servants.”

    That was just before the sweet baby Jesus arrested him for his shameless peadophillia in terms of section 42 of the Criminal Procedure Act?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Other people have moral and legal duties that they do not comply with.

    We told you so.

    Christi of quote of the week fame above (which is turning into quote of the month) and her colleagues are certainly not going to become famous because of their investigative skills.

    And Terence Nombembe? He should resign.

    We think a couple of years’ worth of police budget has been blown ‘implementing’ the Firearms Control Act.

    And, without the Act, the number of homicides would probably already be under 10 000 p.a.

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Polisie-erken-gemors-na-miljarde-vir-konsultante-20130319

    Polisie erken ‘gemors’ ná miljarde vir konsultante
    2013-03-19 21:21
    Philda Essop

    Kaapstad. – Die polisie het gister erken hy het ook reusebedrae
    aan konsultante bestee.

    ‘n Lid van die polisie se topbestuur het gesê die diens is “in ‘n
    gemors”.

    Hulle het in drie boekjare meer as R4?miljard aan konsultante
    bestee.

    Nege kontrakte wat deur die ouditeur-generaal (OG) geoudit is,
    was gister onder die mikroskoop van die parlementêre
    portefeuljekomitee oor polisie.

    Jennifer Irish-Qobosheane, sekretaris van die polisie, het gesê
    die spesiale ondersoekeenheid en die Valke ondersoek die
    kontrakte.

    Chrisna Janse van Rensburg van die OG se kantoor het besonderhede
    van die kontrakte verskaf.

    Dit sluit in die ontwikkeling en instandhouding van ‘n
    vuurwapenbeheerstelsel deur ‘n IT-maatskappy waarvan die
    oorspronklike kontrak van R92?miljoen tot R341?miljoen gestyg
    het.

    “Die beheerstelsel is 70 maande nadat dit geskeduleer is om aan
    die departement oorhandig te word steeds nie in gebruik nie.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 20, 2013 at 0:10 am

    Brett. you understand now how AA works in tandem with corruption. They appoint incompetent people who cannot do the job but according to constitutionally provisioned quotas. Then they subcontract to compensate for that obvious incapacity to well connected entities.

    Happens all the time my boet.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    What distinguished this situation is it is so clear-cut. Terence Nombembe was pontificating about his latest AG report on 702.

    I asked him if he would take a question.

    Tji tji tji between the program manager the producer and Nombembe.

    She comes back. “What is your question?”

    “I want to know how it is possible on God’s Green Earth that the implementation of the Firearms Control Act has never been subjected to a forensic audit given the promulgation in 2004 the backlog in issuing licences and 8-year waits for licence renewals?”

    The one thing that I always ask in this kind of situation is how many times that person has upgraded their personal PC and software since 2004?

    Tji tji tji between the program manager the producer and Nombembe.
    “Mr Nombembe declines to answer this question” She says. Why? “Not going to allow my guest to be ambushed like this” she says.

    So, who TF was right? The first place I tell them to start digging? The CFR has pisssed away as much as JZ spent on himself at Nkandla.

    Let me give you another little tip, Terence. The security system in Volkstem Straat? Who put out that tender?

    When last have you heard about licence renewals? Has this provision of the FCA been Repealed?

    Who do we blame for this fiasco? The atavistic ANC, Iron Age people who shudder at the thought of leaving an armed enemy at their flank?

    Or the ‘Progressives’ who connected the dots for them, punted the legislation, commissioned its drafting – Azhar Cachalia – and crooked the system the whole time it was being enacted?

    What is their moral and legal duty?

    I say ‘start passing the hat around!’

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    I see the Assembly has passed the Dangerous Weapons Bill.

    What do you make of it?

  • Gwebecimele

    Do Cape Town Rats love botoxed toes?
    Guess who got it all this morning?

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Eish – I asked Cardinal Napier on Twitter if it’s true that he’s homophobic. he just ignored me!

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 19, 2013 at 23:25 pm

    Hey Dworky (and Prof MO),

    I heard that Mr Malema is still a “formidable force”.

    Is it true?

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-20-julius-malema-and-the-death-of-hope

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebs

    “Do Cape Town Rats love botoxed toes?”

    I was wondering about that too, Gwebs. But maybe the Aunty’s story about being bitten by a “rat” is just a sly metaphor for the rabid internal politics of the Desperate Alliance.

    And Maggs, I told you years ago that Mr Malema was a “spent force” – yet I would support him again, if only I had the time!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 20, 2013 at 11:06 am

    LOL Dworky,

    It’s hard for “some among us” to admit the error of their judgement, ne!

  • Gwebecimele
  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    March 20, 2013 at 11:09 am

    Gwebs – that impacts only on poor people – so tough shit for them!

  • Deloris Dolittle

    Getting back on topic here, surely it does not matter whether the victim wants to take the matter to the police, a crime was committed and there should be consequences. Yes it will be difficult to build a case if a victim does not want to testify but very often there are other evidence to find someone guilty. I think Napier should reconsider his opinion on this matter urgently.

  • Michael Osborne

    Cardinal Napier’s comments resonate in an interesting way with what I take to be the Church’s view on free will. RC theology has long insisted on the existence of free will, (If there is no free will, how could a just God judge us for our sin?) In the case of the two priests he mentioned, Napier is prepared to say that the fact that they were themselves victims of abuse renders their pedophilia an illness rather than a crime, hence demanding treatment rather than punishment. Yet that is contrary both to secular and canon law, both of which take as a starting point the belief (which I think is philosophically dubious), that all sane humans have free will, and may hence be justly punished.

  • Gwebecimele

    Failure of our justice system from Magistrate to Correctional Service. SAPS must arrest over and over again.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Paroled-rapist-caught-in-the-act-20130320

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele

    Dworky

    These rats will regret biting the first citizen of the cape.

    Let us hope they are not driven out of the city to the nearby shacks.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/western-cape/cape-goes-after-rats-1.1489497

  • Gwebecimele

    Date (vat en sit) someone for more than six months, you might just pay dearly with your pensions?

    http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-financial/allan-gray-accused-of-gay-discrimination

  • Dmwangi

    @MO:

    “Church’s view on free will. RC theology has long insisted on the existence of free will, (If there is no free will, how could a just God judge us for our sin?)”

    Actually, this has been quite a hotly contested issue in RC Church (and Protestantism, e.g. Locke) for 2000 years.

    “Yet that is contrary both to secular and canon law, both of which take as a starting point the belief (which I think is philosophically dubious), that all sane humans have free will, and may hence be justly punished.”

    This is far too simplistic. Both believe in a certain kind of free will. (E.g. The Thomistic account re-formulated with”cognitive realism” by JPII).

    I think (hope) what the Cardinal was saying is that in the wake of the 1960s and ’70s sexual liberation movement, the dominant theory, aided by the homosexual movement, was that people acting on their sexual desires was, more or less, a psychologically healthy thing and that judging those desires to be intrinsically bad was damaging to people. Pedophilia was an “illness” rather than an evil and therapy was more appropriate than punishment. Unfortunately, I think many psychologists still hold this view with respect to pedophiles.

    With hindsight, most sober people now recognise that sexual liberation ideology has been a disaster and that pedophiles, like rapists, should be chemically castrated.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Dmwangi

    “Actually, this has been quite a hotly contested issue in RC Church (and Protestantism, e.g. Locke) for 2000 year”

    I am aware of the debate in the Protestant churches – few nowadays seem to take Calvin’s severe predestinationalism seriously.

    But, so far as I know, no major school of Catholicism since Augustine has disputed the existence of free will, in some form. Could we not agree that it is overwhelmingly dominant in Catholic theology?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Free will is an illusion. Or so do the scientists say, which makes Calvinism much more scientific and relevant than anybody would ever have thought. It also makes a mockery of the basic supernatural assumption that Secular Humanism take for granted.

    http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will

  • Dmwangi

    “Could we not agree that it is overwhelmingly dominant in Catholic theology.”

    I cannot yield. The differences between, say, Pascal’s account of free will, and Aquinas’, or Descartes’, or John Henry Newman, or Augustine’s, etc., are just to great to lump them all together in any meaningful way.

    Intersting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1556756/

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    March 20, 2013 at 16:20 pm

    Ah there you are – many were wondering what became of the Black Mamba which escaped from the Pretoria Zoo!

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Dmwangi

    I can only suggest you approach the editors of the official teachings of the RCC (see infra), who, it seems, have got it terribly wrong.

    **********

    Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    “I cannot yield.”

    Dmwangi is right. He cannot.

  • ozoneblue

    @MO

    730 Sounds like Secular Humanism manifesto. Dont it?

  • Dmwangi

    MO:

    I thought you bright enough to understand nuance.

    First, the catechism is periodically updated and re-written.

    Second, it is an instructional manual for the laity, not a theological treatise. If you were familiar with some of the Church authors I previously mentioned, you would no doubt see the folly of categorising Pascal’s notion of free will with Aqinas’, simply by virtue of the fact that they are both prominent Catholic theologians.

    As I said earlier, it is utter igorant simplification to say that the little paragraph you quote from the catechism tells us anything meaningful about JPII’s notion of free will.

    Try doing some reading before pontificating on subjects that are beyond your current reservoir of knowledge.

  • Dmwangi

    MO:

    Saying that the CC subscribes to a doctrine of “free will” obscures the fact that there is huge debate amongst the current 400k (and probably millions of previous) theologians about what this means, how it operates, what its parameters are, how it manifests itself, its compatiblilty with philosophy of science/physicalism, etc. etc.

    So while some Catholic theologians might assert the existence of “free will,” their philosophy is much more congruent with determinism or comparibilism than the libertarian free will you’re implying the catechism refers to.

    To cast the Church or all Catholic thinkers since Augustine as libertarians with respect to free will, is manifestly false and a gross simplification of a rather complex subject, as evidenced by the thousands of pages of ink spilled on it by theologians.

  • Michael Osborne

    Dmwangi, your last comment warrants that, like MDF, you be entirely ignored going forward. On that note, I sign off from this debate with you.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, I do not doubt you are right. But who is this “Aqinus” to whom he refer? Is he on the web? And did he disavow free will with the same vehemence as his near-namesake Aquinus.

    Also, please tell us more about “comparabilism.” How far is it removed from the better know “compatabilism”?

    Many thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    LOL

    “Dmwangi, your last comment warrants that, like MDF, you be entirely ignored going forward. On that note, I sign off from this debate with you.”

    That is like throwing the white towel before the fight.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    @mfd

    “please tell us more about “comparabilism.” How far is it removed from the better know “compatabilism”?”

    Let me dumb it down for you a little bit. The theory of Comparabilism is not compatible or even remotely comparable to the theory of Compatabilism.

    OK.

  • Dmwangi

    @MDF:

    LOL!

    I said: “categorising Pascal’s notion of free will with Aqinas’…”

    You said: “But who is this “Aqinus” to whom he refer?”

    Next time you’re going to poke fun at someone’s typo, try to avoid typos of your own.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, it is now more than a year since Maggs and I hosted one of our popular weekend seminars at the Millpark Holiday Inn. That is why I am asking you to “save the date” to lead a session in our annual theology weekend, August 14-15. I was thinking that the discussion on the Church Father, Priapus of Phillipi, might be right up you alley. WDYS?

  • Gwebecimele

    Kirkegaard Sees ‘No Immediate’ Cyprus Contagion

    Banks in Spain Cut Developers as 50% of Industry Dies

    Banks in Spain Cut Developers as 50% of Industry Dies

    Spanish Banks Creating ‘Tsunami’ of Failed Developers

    Banks in Spain Cut Developers as 50% of Industry Dies

    Spanish Banks Cut Developers as Zombies Dying: Mortgages

    20/03/2013 16 hours ago

    Spain’s zombie developers are finally about to die.

    Spanish banks are pulling the plug on thousands of builders kept alive during the past five years even as they built almost nothing, said Mikel Echavarren, chief executive officer of Irea, a Madrid-based consulting firm that has advised on 22 billion euros ($28.5 billion) of refinancing. The banks, forced by the government last year to set aside provisions for the developers, have no incentive to keep funding them.

    “Banks have taken the hit, so extend and pretend is over,” said Echavarren. “There’s no motivation to refinance companies that aren’t viable, have no liquidity or possibility of future earnings so we’ll see a tsunami of developer bankruptcies in the next two years.”

    The final collapse of an industry that accounted for as much as 18 percent of Spain’s growth amid the country’s decade- long real estate boom will add to unemployment, already at a record 26 percent, depress consumer spending needed to turn around the economy and push down the value of residential real estate that’s already dropped more than 30 percent since 2007, said Raj Badiani, an economist at IHS Global Insight in London.

    While job losses in the construction industry continued in recent quarters, “they’ve been less severe than expected, given the scale of the real estate slump,” said Badiani. “With banks cutting financial life support to many developers living on borrowed time, we can expect an accelerated downward adjustment in employment levels.” Badiani estimates the jobless rate could climb to more than 27 percent this year and house prices will fall at least 50 percent from the peak by 2015.

    Zombie Developers

    More than half of the country’s 67,000 developers can be categorized as “zombies,” with liabilities that exceed their assets and only enough income to repay the interest on their loans, according to R.R. de Acuna & Asociados, a real-estate consulting firm.

    Reyal Urbis sought protection from creditors last month in the second-largest filing of its type ever in Spain after accumulating 3.6 billion euros of debt. Banks including Banco Santander SA and Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria SA (BBVA) lost interest in refinancing the company, which employs 420 people and had losses of 910 million euros, in 2012.

    Renta Corporacion SA sought creditor protection yesterday and will work with Sareb, the Spanish bad bank, following the decision. The Barcelona-based developer had net debt of about 160 million euros at the end of last year.

    No Incentive

    Spanish lenders, ordered last year to set aside provisions of 84 billion euros to cover anticipated real estate losses, have no incentive to keep unviable builders afloat after they’ve accounted for losses from 280 billion euros of their loans, according to Irea.

    Only developers with sufficient rental income from commercial property to repay debt or those still building homes in areas where they can be sold at a profit will survive, said Echavarren, who estimates that between 5 percent and 10 percent of Spanish developers fall into those categories.

    Since 2008, more than 19,000 real estate and construction companies, or 14 percent of the total, have gone out of business, according to Iberinform, a unit of credit insurer Credito y Caucion.

    Inmobiliaria Colonial SA (COL), Spain’s second-largest publicly traded developer, is about to start talks to review the terms of 3 billion euros of loans maturing next year, Spanish newspaper Expansion reported. Realia Business SA (RLIA), the third-largest, has until March 27 to complete restructuring negotiations for 847 million euros of debt related to its residential real estate business.

    Most Solid

    Realia, which had rental income of 173 million euros in 2012 from its commercial real-estate assets in France and Spain, is the most “solid” of all the publicly traded real estate companies in Spain, according to Juan Jose Fernandez Figares, chief analyst at Link Securities in Madrid.

    The company fell 0.6 percent to 81 cents at 3:06 p.m. in Madrid, down from 5.31 euros about five years ago.

    Spokespeople for Colonial and Realia declined to comment on the debt talks when contacted by Bloomberg News.

    Spain built 675,000 homes a year from 1997 to 2006, according to a report by a unit of Spanish savings bank Cajamar. That’s more than France, Germany and the U.K. combined. The frenzy resulted in a surplus of about 2 million empty homes that will take between seven and 13 years to absorb, according to Madrid-based property research firm R.R. de Acuna & Asociados.

    The Development Ministry estimates there are around 700,000 new unsold homes in Spain and more than half of those are in coastal areas. The total number of empty homes in Spain is 3 million, according to a spokeswoman for the government who asked not to be identified by name.

    Land Demand

    At the peak of the real estate boom, Spain started work on 800,000 homes, and developers bought up enough land to develop five to 10 years of stock, according to Echavarren.

    “Considering the range, there could be enough land for a maximum of 8 million homes and a minimum of 4 million,” Echavarren said, “Real demand is about 125,000 units per annum, so there’s a land bank to last for at least the next 30 years.”

    A study published in November by the National Statistics Institute estimates Spain’s population will fall this year for the first time since 1981 as unemployed immigrants return home and Spaniards in search of work emigrate. The population will drop to 41.5 million in 2052 from 46.2 million now, according to the study.

    Gross domestic product in Spain, the euro region’s fourth-largest economy, fell 0.8 percent in the fourth quarter from the previous three months, more than the 0.7 percent drop estimated on Jan. 30, the Madrid-based National Statistics Institute said on Feb. 28. It had declined 0.3 percent in the third quarter.

    Recession Extending

    The recession is extending into the first quarter amid weak domestic demand, the Bank of Spain said Feb. 28 and the International Monetary Fund expects the economy to shrink about 1.5 percent this year, triple the contraction projected by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who says the economy will return to growth in the second half.

    “Mortgage lending and demand for homes will never recover to the highs we saw,” said Juan Villen, head of mortgages for Idealista.com, Spain’s largest property website. “A few years ago an influx of immigrants and buoyant employment among Spaniards fuelled home sales, now everyone is leaving Spain and those left are unemployed or scared that they might become so.”

    In the third quarter, home sales were down 71 percent from the peak in the second quarter of 2006, according to data from the Ministry of Public Works. Spanish banks granted 274,700 new mortgages in 2012, a drop of 80 percent from 2006, data from the National Statistics Institute shows.

    Justify Rescue

    Carles Vergara, a Barcelona-based professor of Financial Management at the IESE Business School, says banks can no longer justify rescuing real estate companies.

    “If it had been done in 2008 or 2009 it would have been more aggressive, but the banks have being doing it little by little,” he said in a telephone interview. “You cannot bail out developers that took on too much risk. At the end of the day they have to pay the price.”

    In the second quarter of 2009, lenders had 324.7 billion euros of developer loans on their books, Bank of Spain data shows. Around 150 billion euros of that has been transferred to banks, according to Echavarren who says the rest, which has been adequately provisioned for, will pass into the banking system over the next two years as lenders refuse to refinance. According to the latest available data from the regulator, banks had 280.2 billion euros of outstanding developer loans as of the end of September 2012.

    Accelerate Declines

    Echavarren says the result will be an acceleration of the decline in home prices. Prices posted their biggest annual decline on record in the third quarter, falling 15.2 percent, the most since the measurement began in 2008, the National Statistics Institute in Madrid said Dec. 14. Prices have declined 36 percent from their April 2007 peak, according to real estate website Fotocasa.es and the IESE business school.

    “Prices will drop in some places until who knows where,” Echavarren said. “When a bank manages real estate, they market homes by cutting prices and using financing agreements to sell.” Developers can’t compete with banks because they are limited to how far they can reduce the price of their properties, which are backed by debt and cannot offer vendor financing, he added.

    Badiani says home prices will fall by at least 50 percent from peak to trough in late 2015 or early 2016. “The risks are still tilting to the downside, and banks engaging in panic property sales could push the final downward house price adjustment closer to 60 percent.”

    Wider Implications

    Alberto Gallo, an analyst at Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc in London, said a further decline in home prices will have wider implications as more households will slip into negative equity and feel poorer, dragging consumption down further.

    Household spending fell by 1.9 percent in 2012, almost double the rate of the previous year, according to the Bank of Spain. It may drop as much as 3 percent this year, according to Madrid-based consultancy firm Analistas Financieros Internacionales.

    As for banks, taking yet more real estate onto their books will be “more a management problem than a provisioning problem,” Echavarren said, “Spanish banks are in good shape now when it comes to real estate write offs.”

    More Writedowns

    The ruling PP Party, which took over in December 2011, passed a decree in February 2012 requiring banks to speed up recognition of losses on real estate by boosting provisions set aside for land to 80 percent from 31 percent and for unfinished developments to 65 percent from 27 percent. A second decree in May forced lenders to set aside more money for real estate loans classed as healthy.

    Banks may still need further write downs because of ailing developers, according to Fernando Rodriguez de Acuna Martinez, a partner at Acuna & Asociados.

    “Banks had been kicking the can, but now they can absorb losses in a staggered and manageable manner. But if there’s no market for land, for example, and believe me there isn’t, you need to provision it at 100 percent,” he said. “It’s true part of the losses have been provisioned for already, but lenders will have to set aside more in the future.”

    To contact the reporters on this story: Sharon Smyth in Madrid at ssmyth2@bloomberg.net; Rob Urban at robprag@bloomberg.net.

    To contact the editors responsible for this story Andrew Blackman at ablackman@bloomberg.net; Rob Urban at robprag@bloomberg.net.

  • Maggs Naidu – Joeslis is a nullifidian! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi, OB, Brett – don’t feel left out today while us people celebrate Human Rights Day!

    We’ll dedicate 1 April to you three.

  • Maggs Naidu – Joeslis is a nullifidian! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    March 20, 2013 at 22:26 pm

    Eish DM,

    “Next time you’re going to poke fun at someone’s typo, try to avoid typos of your own.”

    Dworky was not poking fun at you.

    He, like the rest of us, takes you very seriously.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Joeslis is a nullifidian! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 21, 2013 at 11:23 am

    That’s fine maggs. Just as long as some of us remember what the term “human right” means:

    “Human rights are “commonly understood as inalienable fundamental rights to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being.”[1] Human rights are thus conceived as universal (applicable everywhere) and egalitarian (the same for everyone).”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights

    Now forgive me as a “privileged White” if I’m not interested and/or celebrating your hypocrisy any more.

  • Maggs Naidu – Happy human rights day! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    March 21, 2013 at 11:34 am

    Awww OB – it seems I hurt your feelings.

    No wait – only people have feelings.

    But I do feel bad about humiliating you – just kidding, I don’t feel bad.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Happy human rights day! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 21, 2013 at 11:37 am

    I used to feel quite strong about “HUMAN rights” and I still do.

    “Human rights are “commonly understood as inalienable fundamental rights to which A PERSON is inherently entitled simply because she or he IS A HUMAN BEING.”[1] Human rights are thus conceived as universal (applicable everywhere) and egalitarian (THE SAME FOR EVERYONE).””

  • Maggs Naidu – Happy human rights day! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    March 21, 2013 at 11:43 am

    OB – no need to get carried away.

    Human Rights Day is just another holiday.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “The main thrust of affirmative action should be directed towards the advancement of the African people who were by far the most oppressed by apartheid. Yet this does not mean that the principles of diversity and capacity building should not be used to promote as well the advancement of coloured people and Indians in every sphere of life.”

    http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=283

    “should”, “aught to”, “perhaps”, “if”, “but” and so on and so forth – given the circumstance – I see no mention of “inalienable fundamental rights” or “inherently entitled”. To do so would be to place human rights before any contemporary dogma that may satisfy arbitrary and undefined goal posts in a grand social engineering project. In other words – why should anybody besides Africans feel exited about their future and celebrate “human rights” day. For the rest of us [non Africans] they don’t really apply [perhaps in theory contingent on the demographics]. It is more or less equal to celebrating your own gradual and inevitable destruction.

    And that is, dear maggs, why I’m going to sit at home and have a couple of beers and a braai as usual and dream of the good old days.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    So for human rights day – l suggest rather watch Searching for Sugar Man.

    http://www.sonyclassics.com/searchingforsugarman/

    For all of us privileged Whites who struggled against Apartheid and racial discrimination.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs is right. But I have a question. In light of his recent excursion into arcane details of Roman Catholic theology (which shows relatively few signs of being recently derived from Google/Wikipedia), are there ANY fields of human knowledge that Dmwangi has not mastered?

    Dmwangi, do tell!

  • Maggs Naidu – Happy human rights day! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 21, 2013 at 13:48 pm

    Dworky,

    If I didn’t know better, I’d think that you were poking fun at Dmwangi.

    Anyone with lesser insight would suspect that you think Dm is FOOL!

    p.s. It’s human rights day – let’s encourage DM to come out of the wardrobe.

    WDYSTT?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, lesser men mistake wisdom for arrogance. But Dmwangi is an intellectual OMNIVORE. I view him as a POLYMATH. To put it bluntly: There is no reason at all Dmwangi should not chair both our Macro-economics panel AND the session on Scholastic Theology.

    WDYSTT?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Back on topic. For me this is problematic statement.

    “This is exactly why section 54 of the new Sexual Offenses Act (adopted in 2007) now requires anyone “who has knowledge that a sexual offence has been committed against a child” to “report such knowledge immediately to a police official”. A person who fails to report such knowledge, is guilty of an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding five years or to both a fine and such imprisonment.”

    So as said earlier, where does that put psychoanalysts [and priests] whose patients really on the assumption of confidentiality during a confession.

    It seems Big Brother is watching ever more vigilantly.

  • John Roberts

    You’re slipping up Pierre. I can’t see anywhere in this article where you attack white South Africans after sucking on your thumb.

    I see Fassbinder is still sprouting the same tired old shit. Get a job Dworky!

  • Maggs Naidu – Happy human rights day! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    John Roberts
    March 22, 2013 at 9:38 am

    Hey JR,

    What’s news from Manley?

    A belated happy Human Rights Day for yesterday!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ JR

    ” Fassbinder is still sprouting the same tired old shit. Get a job Dworky”

    Welcome back, JR. As it happens, I do now have a job – as socio-political events organizer at Holiday Inn. I was in fact planning to approach you to see if you will chair a panel to address the age old question: “WHAT WILL HAPPEN?”

    Are you in?

  • Dmwangi

    MDF:

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 21, 2013 at 22:31 pm

    I’m flattered you think I’m a genius. But I’m afraid you’re just easily impressed. I dare say most observant Catholics are aware that there has been vigorous debate within the Church in last 2,000 years regarding the nature of free will. Any teenager who has taken a course in Church history can confirm this. Only at UCT, where propaganda passes for research, could one be impressed by such elementary knowledge.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    Probably Dutch Reformed.

    @OB:

    And you say:

    “Cape Town – President Jacob Zuma has rubbished claims by the FF Plus that affirmative action and black economic empowerment (BEE) are impoverishing white people.

    “Affirmative Action and BEE are constitutional imperatives designed in terms of section nine of the Constitution to correct the inequality and exclusion faced mainly by black people, namely Africans, coloureds and Indians… which was caused by apartheid laws,” Zuma said on Wednesday in reply to questions in the National Assembly.

    Freedom Front Plus MP Anton Alberts claimed statistics showed that blacks owned more property than whites, and that “an equal number of black and white people own shares on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange”.

    Zuma disputed Alberts’s assertions.

    “It is an undisputable fact that white compatriots still control the South African economy and disproportionately own most of the prime land in the country,” he told MPs.

    Zuma quoted from the Census 2011 results, which indicated that whites earned six times more than blacks.

    “In relation to property ownership, the SA Property Sector Charter Council 2010 report, estimates that of the total R4.9 trillion market capitalisation in the sector, R3 trillion falls within historically white residential areas, where the majority of these properties are still owned by white people.”

    Zuma said the issue of poor whites was not a new concept in South Africa.

    “The only difference is that government looks after all citizens equally, while in the past there were special programmes and interventions to alleviate white poverty and reserve jobs for unskilled white citizens.”

    Alberts later told Zuma the research he quoted was “dubious”.

    “It is basically just stated that they [whites] are okay, the census shows they’re okay. There are about a million of them living in shacks, representing about 20% of white people.”

    Alberts said BEE policies were also not benefiting other minorities like coloureds.

    “Your policies are creating new victims. Twenty to 50 years from now we will be standing there and say we will have to rectify the mistakes of the past that the ANC has created, by helping white people,” Alberts said.

    Zuma then accused Alberts of denialism.

    “If you take into account the history of racial discrimination in this country, the reality is that the majority of black people still suffer as they did many years ago,” Zuma said.

    The president said he had visited a white squatter camp in Pretoria and had helped its residents with their problems.

    “There is no way you can say that in 20 years to come you will stand here and be saying you are correcting the mess of the ANC.

    “We are actually trying to make all South Africans to change the quality of their lives, including whites.””

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    March 22, 2013 at 14:38 pm

    Hey DM,

    “there has been vigorous debate within the Church in last 2,000 years regarding the nature of free will.”

    I saw a documentary about this once.

    It was called “Free Willy”.

    Did you see it?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    “Any teenager who has taken a course in Church history can confirm [the existence of debate in Catholic theology between Augustinian and Thomistic theories of freedom of the will.]”

    Funny you should say this, Dmwangi. Just last week, snacking at the food court in Sandton City, I overheard two teen age girls disputing vigorously among themselves as to whether the modified libertarianism of late medieval theology could be rendered compatible [!] with the Calvin’s teachings on predestination!

    Thanks.

  • joeslis

    @ MDF

    “… as to whether the modified libertarianism of late medieval theology could be rendered compatible [!] with the Calvin’s teachings on predestination!”

    It couldn’t, could it? After all, “the Calvin” clearly stated that “whoever, then, heaps odium upon the doctrine of predestination openly reproaches God”!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Please excuse me, Mwangi! It wasn’t my goal to delegitimise the Catholic Church but to make a point. About double standards?

    Imagine the reaction if I had speculated that teacher was a practising homosexual?

    Dmwangi says:
    March 22, 2013 at 16:04 pm

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 22, 2013 at 16:04 pm

    “The only difference is that government looks after all citizens equally, while in the past there were special programmes and interventions to alleviate white poverty and reserve jobs for unskilled white citizens.”

    Well that is just nonsensical rubbish. When you are discriminating against any individual based on the colour of their skin you can hardly be looking after them “equally”. It means that every human being have to embrace a “racial identity” that make them subject to “group policy” that they have no other choice to accept as their inescapable destiny. It is immoral and unacceptable, and no better or worse than the thoroughly discredited racist logic behind Apartheid.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Zuma quoted from the Census 2011 results, which indicated that whites earned six times more than blacks.”

    Another meaningless statement meant to distract from the fact that the majority of the wealth in South Africa is owned by Black people. These are the same people who complain most but do not want to share our country’s wealth with the impoverished masses. No matter how much they wriggle and squeal that is a truth. The Struggle is not (has never been) the old Apartheid race – it is and has always been about class and we are calling you on that now.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “It is basically just stated that they [whites] are okay, the census shows they’re okay. There are about a million of them living in shacks, representing about 20% of white people.”

    True. But the aim is to have 80% of Whites live in abject poverty because that is in line with the “demographics”. And this all fact – all us privileged Whites [and Indians] need to be very, very clearly understand – this will not stop until at least another 2mil whites are destitute and/or living in squatter camps. Next will be the Indians. It is very much as Andile Mngxitama put it – Whites, no matter what they have contributed to the development of Africa, will have to “start again like dogs”.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Joeslis

    “the Calvin” clearly stated that “whoever, then, heaps odium upon the doctrine of predestination openly reproaches God”!

    Admittedly. But what about dat bit in Genesis 3:28, where The Lord says “da Hobbes have I loved, but da Calvin have I hated, ere since before da Earth was formed”?

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    I see.

    Apologies. Notwithstanding MDF’s assertion about my (allegedly) stunning breadth of learning, it seems the nuance was lost on me as I have yet to master Afrikaans.

    @OB:

    I basically totally disagree with everything in your post. That said, over time, I’ve come to the view that race should no longer be a factor in any public policy (not based on your argument but because it has become counter-productive). Any of the goals of race-based public policy could be achieved using class as a metric, with the added benefit of attenutaing racial antagonisms and without further entrenching a class of BEE cronies, who will rent-seek and try to wield their power to shield themselves from competition every bit as much as their white counterparts. To the extent that policies are aimed at alleviating general poverty, Africans will still overwhelmingly benefit.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 23, 2013 at 1:01 am

    “I basically totally disagree with everything in your post. That said, over time, I’ve come to the view that race should no longer be a factor in any public policy (not based on your argument but because it has become counter-productive). Any of the goals of race-based public policy could be achieved using class as a metric, with the added benefit of attenutaing racial antagonisms and without further entrenching a class of BEE cronies, who will rent-seek and try to wield their power to shield themselves from competition every bit as much as their white counterparts. To the extent that policies are aimed at alleviating general poverty, Africans will still overwhelmingly benefit.”

    Thanks. So you are in fact then not disagreeing with what I said?

  • Dmwangi

    Mine is a completely prudential judgement. I do not oppose race-based programs in principle. Nor do I deny the ontological existence of race. Nor do I think govt must treat everyone equally in all respects rather than treating them appropriately relative to their circumstances (age, race, mental health, socio-economic background, etc.). Nor do I think ppl can be completely shorn of a particular perspective (i.e. coming from a certain tradition, even if they reject that tradition).

    Not trivial differences….

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 23, 2013 at 1:41 am

    “Mine is a completely prudential judgement. I do not oppose race-based programs in principle. Nor do I deny the ontological existence of race.”

    So it is all relative and circumstantial. It is not based on any underlying truth, a sort of divine moral principle – lets say, something silly like “all men are equal before God”? Much like your morally ambiguous stance on torture – etc and so on.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, I am not making the extravagant claim that you are omniscient. What I am suggesting is that, by virtue of your immense learning, your nimble mind, harnessed to a 24-hour high speed internet connection, is capable of generating almost instantaneous insights on every topic from algebra to zooplankton!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 23, 2013 at 16:44 pm

    Dworky,

    “every topic from algebra to zooplankton!”

    Dmwangi is not a fool.

    Everyone knows that zooplankton has nothing to do with algebra.

    Even DM knows that it has to do with geometry!

  • joeslis

    @ Dmwangi

    “Nor do I deny the ontological existence of race.”

    Ontological … shmontological. Human ‘races’ are sociocultural constructs; at least, that is the consensus among Western researchers today.

    There are no different races: only different species!

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    joeslis
    March 23, 2013 at 18:44 pm

    Joeslis,

    “that is the consensus among Western researchers today.”

    I got news for you!

    DM will have none of it from WESTERN researchers.

    He/she/it prefers the likes of our great African father (the guy that wanted to eat somebody’s children).

    p.s. if you are not impressed by Dm then you cannot be a WHITE person.

  • Dmwangi

    MDF:

    Don’t retreat. You implied that there aren’t “ANY fields of human knowledge” I haven’t mastered. Perhaps not omniscience, but that seems rather a extravagant claim. In any case, the ability to recall some fundamental concepts from influential PPE thinkers hardly merits the awe it’s inspired in you.

    @Joeslis:

    “Ontological … shmontological. Human ‘races’ are sociocultural constructs; at least, that is the consensus among Western researchers today.”

    And the previous Western consensus was that not only was the existence of races a fact of nature but that they were hierarchically ordered. I’ve never found Argumentum ad populum or appealing to the authority of the West to be persuasive.

    You’re biologically correct re: species vs. race. I’m using the term “race” colloquially. To my mind, outside of the natural characteristics (e.g. melanin, hair, etc.), “race” is ontologically initiated dialetically, and then defined subjectively, as opposed to sociologically. I.e. “Race” becomes apparent, and adopted as a constituent of identity, only when one encounters those of another “race.” But the fact that this recognition is both impossible without an “other” and inevitable once that encounter occurs, leads me to believe there is more to it than the ‘sociology of knowledge’ school would like us to believe.

  • Zulani

    Psalm 109 : 8

  • Dmwangi

    Correct. My opposition to race-based govt policy is not derived from my belief that “all men are equal before God.”

    Under different contexts (historical, economic, social) I could support such programs. Hence, I do not think it’s a strict question of morality like “murder is always wrong.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 23, 2013 at 20:36 pm

    “Correct. My opposition to race-based govt policy is not derived from my belief that “all men are equal before God.”

    Under different contexts (historical, economic, social) I could support such programs.”

    That is understandable, so Apartheid can never be a “crime against humanity”. In fact it is a part of humanity applying its own discretion and aligning it [however awkwardly] with God’s will.

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    That is a tortured interpretation of what I actually wrote.

    Of course the purpose, intention, means of implementation, etc. of any race-based program I would affirm would need to comply with basic principles of justice. But equating the provision of an AA benefit in uni admissions — a largely benevolent, albeit sometimes paternalistic goal– to a policy of systematic torture and de facto enslavement based on the fact that both make racial distinctions, strikes me as a tad strained.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozone

    “Apartheid can never be a “crime against humanity”. In fact it is a part of humanity applying its own discretion and aligning it [however awkwardly] with God’s will.”

    Ozone is right. But I still say that apartheid was UNCHRISTIAN. Why? Because, by building so many hospitals for blacks, it fostered a cruel CULTURE OF DEPENDENCY.

    Brett will explain!

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    March 23, 2013 at 20:36 pm

    So DM – “all men are equal before God.”

    Careful – you’re being your usual sexist, backward self. Again.

    Did you know god that made White men from MUD? If not Lisbeth will explain.

    Do let god know which graduate schools you studied at – it would also like to IMPRESS WHITE PEOPLE. Dworky will explain.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, with respek, your obsession with Dmwangi’s graduate school is just silly. He is universally esteemed for what he is, not his alma mata. I myself attended the humble College of the Northern Adriatic. Yet I am often approached with a certain awe.

    How do you explain that?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 23, 2013 at 22:34 pm

    “Of course the purpose, intention, means of implementation, etc. of any race-based program I would affirm would need to comply with basic principles of justice.”

    So why would it be unjust to uplift White people [at the expense of Black people] back then and just to uplift Black people [at the expense of White people] now? How could it ever be just to deny an entire generation of young people a higher education [whatever the reason] because their racial opposites must be uplifted? Would it no be much more equitable and just to give Whites their own homelands so that they can develop and uplift themsleves much like Apartheid did for Blacks?

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=275355&sn=Detail

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    http://www.rapport.co.za/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Tronk-Nie-vir-ANC-hoe-20130323

    Tronk? Nie vir ANC-hoë

    2013-03-23 23:18
    Charl du Plessis

    “Ek kan nie toelaat dat ’n ANC-voorsitter tronk toe gaan nie.”

    Dít was die skokkende uitlating wat die streekhofpresident van die Noord-Kaap glo gemaak het voordat hy een van die korrupsiesake aangehoor het teen John Block, ANC-leier in die Noord-Kaap.

    En nou lyk dit of die rekords van die verhoor weggeraak het.

    Dié uitlating word onthul in ’n voorlopige ondersoekverslag wat twee landdroste opgestel het oor ’n klagte van wangedrag teen die streekhofpresident Khandilizwe Nqadala van Kimberley.

    Die Landdrostekommissie se etiekkomitee het nadat hulle die verslag oorweeg het, egter gesê daar is onvoldoende bewyse vir ’n wangedragklag teen Nqadala.

    ’n Sentrale klagte is dat Nqadala en Block glo bevriend was voordat hy een van Block se sake aangehoor het.

    Nqadala het gister gesê hy weet niks van die verslag nie. “Ek was nooit ’n vriend van John Block nie en is ook nie nou sy vriend nie.”

    Die saak wat Nqadala aangehoor het, het verband gehou met Block se besoek aan die North Sea Jazz-fees op belastingbetalers se koste. Block het jammer gesê en die geld terugbetaal.

    Nqadala het aan hom ontslag toegestaan ingevolge art. 174 van die Strafproseswet. Volgens dié bepaling kan ’n saak uit die hof gegooi word sonder dat die beskuldigde bewyse hoef voor te lê as die staat se bewyse onvoldoende is, of as daar onvoldoende bewys van ’n misdaad is.

    Die staatsaanklaer het egter nooit vir Glen Chase van die Noord-Kaapse Burgerregte-organisasie gevra om in die saak te getuig nie, al het hy die oorspronklike klagte ingedien.

    Luidens die voorlopige ondersoekverslag het Chase beweer “mnr. Nqadala en mnr. Block ken mekaar en is vriende”.

    “Hulle is by verskeie geleenthede saam gesien in die openbaar…die mense in Kimberley is bewus van hul vriendskap.”

    Noseweek het al in 2010 oor dié beweerde vriendskap berig – en dat Block vir ’n Sondagbraai by Nqadala aan huis was.

    Vincent Mayisela, uitvoerende hoof van die Regshulpraad se kantoor in Kimberley, het die ondersoekers vertel hy was ook ’n goeie vriend van Nqadala en dat hulle dikwels gesels het.

    Nqadala het glo aan Mayisela gesê hy sal nie toelaat dat “wolwe” die saak aanhoor nie en dat hy dit self sal hanteer. (Mayisela het aangeneem met “wolwe” bedoel Nqadala wit landdroste).

    “Hy het voorts opgemerk hy kan nie toelaat dat ’n voorsitter van die ANC tronk toe te gaan nie,” het Mayisela luidens die voorlopige verslag gesê.

    Nqadala het gister teruggekap: Sy gesprekke met Mayisela het plaasgevind juis toe hy Mayisela se “swak gedrag” as hoof van Legal Aid SA aangemeld het.

    “Dís toe hy begin het om vals aantygings teen my te versprei.”

    Mayisela het ook aan die ondersoekers gesê hy het tydens Block se hofsaak “opgemerk die bank is nie onpartydig nie”.

    Dit blyk egter uit verslae wat aan City Press, susterkoerant van Rapport, laat lek is dat die aantyging nie teen die saakrekords getoets kon word nie omdat dit uit die Kimberley-streekhof se rekords verdwyn het.

    “Die saakrekord van die Staat vs. John Block (het) weggeraak (en is) waarskynlik vernietig. Dit strook nie met die instruksies van die kode vir argiewe nie.”

    Die gevolgtrekking van die ondersoekende landdros was dat daar “ruim bewyse is van ’n vriendskap tussen mnr. John Block en mnr. Nqadala. Dus was dit oneties vir mnr. Nqadala om oor John Block se saak te beslis”. Dit was volgens drie onafhanklike getuies.

    Die ondersoekspan het aanbeveel Nqadala moet van wangedrag aangekla word. Maar die aanbeveling is deur die Landdrostekommissie se etiekkomitee tersyde gestel omdat dit “moeilik” sou wees om die bestaan van so ’n vriendskap te bewys.

    Die etiekkomitee het ook gesê Nqadala het getuig hy het Block se saak nie aan homself toegewys nie. Landdros Vernon Smith het dit gedoen.

    Die verdediging het vir ’n art. 174-kwytskelding gevra. “Die staat se saak was duidelik gebrekkig omdat die klaer nie getuig het nie,” lui die verslag.

    Die etiekkomitee het verskeie ander klagtes teen Nqadala ook tersyde gestel en die Landdrostekommissie het die bevindings aanvaar.

    Ross Henderson, voorsitter van die Noord-Kaapse Burgerregte-organisasie, het gesê hulle oorweeg ’n hersieningsaansoek.

    “Ons dink ons het ’n sterk saak,” het hy gesê.

    Block se woordvoerder, Lesego Letebele, het gister gesê dit is “onsensitief” om Block so skielik vir kommentaar te vra, want daar was ’n sterfte in sy familie.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 24, 2013 at 5:34 am

    Eish Dowrky,

    “Maggs, with respek, your obsession with Dmwangi’s graduate school is just silly.”

    I am IMPRESSED by Dmwangi not obsessed.

    If Art Linkletter were around today he would say “Dmwangi says the SMARTEST things!”

    I hope it’s clear now.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    p.s. I can explain why you’re “often approached with a certain awe”.

    It’s cos you’re such a poephole!

    Brett will explain.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 24, 2013 at 9:54 am

    Brett, what do you expect from Friends of the Mafia?

    When last did our media inform us about the health and whereabouts of Jackie Selebi? Or did they lose appetite as with the arms deal?

    “Last week, DA spokeswoman on police Dianne Kohler Barnard called for a parliamentary debate on having a professional police officer as head the service. The Sunday Times quoted Phiyega as asking: “Are we having a veiled gender debate?” Phiyega said her predecessors, Bheki Cele and Jackie Selebi, had never received the same attention during their tenures. Kohler Barnard said: “To blame her gender, I couldn’t believe it. But I did call for the need for a professional police officer to head the service instead of a recycled politician or someone who knows absolutely nothing.” Kohler Barnard said the police were in “absolute chaos”.”

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/da-to-push-for-debate-on-phiyega-1.1488149

    Bit if it is not RACISM, then it must be SEXISM.

    Right?

    What do our regular congregation of White liberals have to say on such intolerable bigotry?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “But I did call for the need for a professional police officer to head the service instead of a recycled politician or someone who knows absolutely nothing.”

    But who needs a professional police officer when we should be appointing a professional black women?

    This is all the work of evil [white] patriarchy with their racist and sexist obsession with “merit” again.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    What is happening to WierdaBrug SAPS?

    That alone shows how unsuitable for her position Phiyega is.

    Why is the former station commander not spending his day washing police bakkies?

    Is uNathi asleep? Doesn’t he read the papers? Google ‘WierdaBrug’…

    Ozoneblue says:
    March 24, 2013 at 10:55 am

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “What do our regular congregation of White liberals have to say on such intolerable bigotry?”

    Ozone is right. Is it a coincidence that both General Phiyega and Minister Pule, the current targets of a tsunami of whitish LIBERAL vilification, are black women?

    I think not!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Out of a Cabinet of 125?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 24, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    “the current targets of a tsunami of whitish LIBERAL vilification, are black women?”

    mfd. I am afraid that with this cacophony of whitish noise you are conflating the voice of whitish LIBERALs with whitish REACTIONARIES. Whitish LIBERALS believe that it is more important to appoint professional black women as our NPC than appointing a professional police officer. Whitish REACTIONARIES (like Brett and myself) on the other hand are deeply concerned about the wisdom behind such a policy of TRANSFORMATION.

    We do note however [with a degree of whitish hubris] that our whitish LIBERALS complain a lot about the “corruption” and the “cadre deployment” and so on and so forth. But as prof Samatha Vice did point out – it is better that the lot of us Whites just stop thinking too much and STFU, and learn to reflect [very quietly and humbly] on our endless White Privileges that we inherited from Apartheid as we embrace our fate like those whitish mongrel dogs who are already atoning for our sins in places like Coronation park.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Helped along by 500 000 homicides, a conviction rate of between 10 and 12 % depending on whom you listen to, a minimum rape total of 48 000 a year, with a conviction rate of 2,8%, a conviction rate in trio crimes of less than 1%, most of our municipalities being bankrupt, our national educational bar being considerably dumbed down yet beyond the grasp of most compared to Bantu Education, our population having tripled since 1978, one in two adults being unemployed, a fifth of the total of farmers left we had 25 years ago and mielies all the way to Vryburg and Bloemfontein being scorched black, the

    Lord Help US! I could be here all day.

    “Whitish REACTIONARIES (like Brett and myself) on the other hand are deeply concerned about the wisdom behind such a policy of TRANSFORMATION.”

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    Your zealotry is going to convince me that I should favour race-based public policies.

    “So why would it be unjust to uplift White people [at the expense of Black people] back then and just to uplift Black people [at the expense of White people] now? How could it ever be just to deny an entire generation of young people a higher education [whatever the reason] because their racial opposites must be uplifted?”

    White ppl have not been stripped of the franchise. They do not require pass books. They are not being systematically tortured and killed by the state. How can you possibly assert that an entire generation of whites has been denied a higher education? Are you blind? There are multitudes of whites at every university. Please empirically demonstrate that any of these programs have been implemented at “the expense” of whites. The idea behind AA is not malevolent: it’s *remedial*. That is, in order to redress historical iniquities, they’re required to *level* the playing field, not advantage one side. I no longer support them for SA. But comparing them to apartheid, is radically out of touch with reality.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Mwangi, how where whites educated at black expense when by the 1970s spending on black education surpassed spending on white education (who paid the taxes)?

    You’re clearly a victim of the ANC’s rewrite of reality.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Mwangi, if black people were systematically tortured and killed where are the bodies? How do you explain the reality that more people die in the New South Africa’s cells a year than did political detainees during the entire exostence of Apartheid?

  • Dmwangi

    Brett:

    “Mwangi, how where whites educated at black expense when by the 1970s spending on black education surpassed spending on white education (who paid the taxes)?”

    The appropriate metric for comparison is spending *per pupil.*

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    Your zealous writings have nearly convinced me that apartheid was a great BOON for blacks. Yet I have this nagging feeling that it was UNCHRISTIAN!

    WDYSTT?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Dmwangi says:
    March 24, 2013 at 17:04 pm

    Very nice ‘metric’ where the beneficiary class triples between 1978 and 2010 and the taxpayer-class does not!

  • Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 24, 2013 at 17:08 pm

    Dworky,

    “Yet I have this nagging feeling that it was UNCHRISTIAN!”

    Ja but was it Un-UBUNTU???

  • Dmwangi

    “Very nice ‘metric’ where the beneficiary class triples between 1978 and 2010 and the taxpayer-class does not!”

    That’s a red herring. Because even if that’s true, that wouldn’t explain why there should be a discrepancy between white and black per pupil spending. Per pupil spending should decline across all racial categories equally.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 24, 2013 at 15:56 pm

    “Your zealotry is going to convince me that I should favour race-based public policies.”

    So you believe that you should punish recalcitrant Whites [because you have the power]. But on the other hand you insist that “The idea behind AA is not malevolent”

    Don’t do me no favours.

    “How can you possibly assert that an entire generation of whites has been denied a higher education? Are you blind?”

    I’m talking about the future and where this dogma of “racial demographics” is inevitably going to take my kids and their kids. What is this about Dmwangi?

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2011/11/27/too-white-to-study-medicine

    What is going on in places like Coronation park then – close to 1mil poor Whites now? Why does JZ state “that government looks after all citizens equally” when we know that is a lie, that Whites are discriminated against in the labour market because of the color of their skin. Why does those poor Whites who are victims of AA simply ignored, as if they just don’t exist for us. Should I believe “I eat for them” [just like this corrupt ANC scum] because I happen to be White and reasonably well off.

    Not a chance boet, it don’t work that way for me.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    Yes, it was ANTITHETICAL to Ubuntu.

    Thanks.

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    My point was that your irrational zealotry probably convinces many more ppl of the necessity of AA than vice versa. My comment had nothing to do with “punishing” anyone.

    Given that you seem unable to comprehend that the *intention* of these programs is *remedial* as opposed to punitive, perhaps this is an apt quote for you:

    “You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: ‘now, you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.’ You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying, “you are free to compete with all the others,” and still justly believe you have been completely fair… ”

    -Lyndon Johnson on AA

    On more interesting note:

    “Johannesburg – Former Reserve Bank governor Tito Mboweni has called on South African politicians to be honest on matters of the economy, capital and corruption.

    Addressing business leaders and academics in Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape, this week during the launch of the Coega Development Corporation (CDC) journal, Perspectives, Mboweni accused government of failing to run its own entities, specifically Telkom [JSE:TKG], the SABC and SAA.

    Responding to a question on the proposed setting up of a state-owned steel company, he warned against nationalisation.

    He said: “I do not believe in nationalisation. The ANC government does not know how to run most things it owns. Look at what we are doing with Telkom.

    “We do not know how to run an airline (SAA), the SABC is meant to just broadcast, just that, and we don’t know how to run it.”

    Answering a question about the setting up of a Brics bank and government’s request to have it headquartered in South Africa, Mboweni said: “This discussion about the Brics bank being located here in South Africa is very interesting.

    “We love things to be located here, but these things are very costly. I would rather take that money and build the Coega Petro SA oil refinery here in Port Elizabeth.”

    He also dismissed the notion that governments could create jobs. “Be wary of any politician who comes to you now promising jobs. There are no jobs.

    Any politician who promises jobs now is lying.

    “There has been a substantial change in the nature of the South African economy that we must accept and deal with.”

    Mboweni added: “Despite the significant developments we have made, the problems have not gone away. In fact, they have gotten worse. In my view, we have reached the point where we require the most focused national attention to deal with the problems.

    “We cannot be shy to approach other countries in the world that are experiencing a labour shortage and see if they can take some of our people.”

    The former labour minister also lashed out at teacher union Sadtu for interfering in education and causing chaos. He also hit out at parents for not participating in the education of their children by not attending school governing body (SGB) meetings.

    Mboweni said it was surprising that black parents do not attend SGB meetings in townships, but when they move to the suburbs, they do.

    According to him, the education system is not producing the number of skilled people needed to access sectors that hold the bigger slice of the economy.

    “We need larger numbers of people with structured post-matric qualifications to be able to enter these sectors,” he said, while calling on government to “urgently” recommit itself to education.

    “The education budget is enough for us to achieve our objectives. The problem is the content and the attitudes.”

    On corruption, Mboweni, who is the chairperson of AngloGold Ashanti [JSE:ANG], and is also a member of the ANC’s national working committee, said that policy and law makers must know that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and that no politician was above this document.

    He said: “People who draft laws sometimes forget that one day they might have to stand in front of the court and be judged by the very same laws they have made. Any benefit that is not due to you is corruption.”

    He added that capital is not white monopoly capital any more, saying the nature of South African capital has shifted to embrace global and more diverse participation.

    “Capital nowadays includes pension funds from government, hedge funds and other investment capital from various groupings including labour unions, making it difficult to pin the origin of capital as exclusively white,” he said.

    »Perspectives is a journal initiated four years ago by the CDC in collaboration with the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University. It seeks to stimulate debate among professionals, specialists and young academics on issues of industrial and economic development.”

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    In an ideal world, perhaps!

    In the big-people world, why would the 3 in ten people who pay tax even consider subsidising the education of the children of the 7 out of 10 people who are thinking of nothing else but being the 95/100 people?

    Dmwangi says:
    March 24, 2013 at 18:00 pm

  • Dmwangi

    “In the big-people world, why would the 3 in ten people who pay tax even consider subsidising the education of the children of the 7 out of 10 people who are thinking of nothing else but being the 95/100 people?”

    Because those with some sense of long-term vision (and the ability to rise above Darwinian impulses to only care about kin) understand that if they don’t, in 15-20 years they’ll need some pretty impressive walls to keep out the 70% who lack education and are unemployable.

  • Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 24, 2013 at 20:27 pm

    Hey G,

    “In the big-people world, why would the 3 in ten people who pay tax”

    Stop being FUBAR.

    EVERYONE pays tax!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    A.k.a. ‘ubuntu’. ‘Our people first!’.

    “Darwinian impulses to only care about kin”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 24, 2013 at 20:12 pm

    “You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: ‘now, you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.’ You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying, “you are free to compete with all the others,” and still justly believe you have been completely fair… ”

    Strange way to treat mere “slaves” ain’t it – build them universities and grant them full self-determination. I believe even Marcus Garvey and Malcolm X would have embraced such opportunities no doubt.

    If South Africa was indeed a slave camp – why did Robert Sobukwe, Julius Nyerere, Robert Mugabe, Thabo Mbeki (to name but a couple) all study at Fort Hare? How “irrational” was that.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Mboweni

    ” … dismissed the notion that governments could create jobs. “Be wary of any politician who comes to you now promising jobs. There are no jobs.”

    With respect I am wary of Mr Mboweni. When he was Reserve Bank governor, he spoke out against affirmative action. And as Pierre has taught us, with respect to Stellenbosch, to be against AA is ipso facto RACIST!

    Thanks.

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    And I’m sure all the migrant workers digging in mines felt “privileged” that the apartheid regime was providing them job opportunities. No doubt Martin Luther King was jealous!

    I tire of this debate. If you honestly believe that the current AA policy is an injustice equivalent to apartheid, your moral myopia is hopelessly incurable.

  • Dmwangi

    “why did Robert Sobukwe, Julius Nyerere, Robert Mugabe, Thabo Mbeki (to name but a couple) all study at Fort Hare?”

    Yep. What a bunch of ingrates. The apartheid govt provides these guys with a world class education and, not recognising that extraordinary benevolence, they turn around and engage in sedition. They should have been writing thank you letters!

  • Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    March 24, 2013 at 22:19 pm

    Hey OB,

    “Robert Mugabe, Thabo Mbeki (to name but a couple)”

    So they are a “couple”, eh.

    Thanks for the update.

    Many suspected that there was more to those two than politics as usual.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    March 24, 2013 at 23:27 pm

    “I tire of this debate.”

    But you started it – rubbing JZ’s exchange with FF+ in my face. I’m not so much concerned with race-based AA during the past 20 years, I want to know when it is going to stop. I look at the prevailing rhetoric i.e there are still too many privileged White people (irrespective of the fact that they are outnumbered 2/1 by privileged Black people) and too many poor Black people – i.e. the only conclusion, the *unspoken thing* is that these “demographic imbalances” must be addressed during the “second phase” meaning another 2mil or so Whites must be impoverished during the next decade so that it would reflect the same class demographics as in the Black section of the population.

    Or what I’m I missing in there?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 25, 2013 at 0:22 am

    In fact they are more than a couple.

    There is a comprehensive list on the wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Fort_Hare#Notable_alumni

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, you have a lot to learn from OB and Brett. The former will tell you that blacks are now richer than whites. The latter will explain that apartheid was bad -but only in the sense that, by lavishing bounties of houses, hospitals, schools etc. on blacks, the Nat govt deprived blacks of the valuable opportunity to do stuff for themselves!

    [Erudite as you are, you will know that Brett has in mind here Hegel’s master-serf dialectic!]

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 25, 2013 at 1:16 am

    “The former will tell you that blacks are now richer than whites.”

    Yes. That is a fact. I have posted many stats from different sources to support that too. Lets take JZ’s statements.

    “It is an undisputable fact that white compatriots still control the South African economy and disproportionately own most of the prime land in the country,” he told MPs.”

    But we know that King Goodwill for example owns almost a third of KZN – all of that communal land collectively owned by Black people?

    “In relation to property ownership, the SA Property Sector Charter Council 2010 report, estimates that of the total R4.9 trillion market capitalisation in the sector, R3 trillion falls within historically white residential areas, where the majority of these properties are still owned by white people.”

    So that implies that R1.9 trillion falls in “historical black” residential and rural areas. Even if Blacks only owned as little of 1/3 of socalled “historically white residential areas” [he doesn’t mention any stats here] the total Black ownership comes to R2.9 trillion and versus R2.0 trillion owned by Whites.

    Same patter/ratios go for middle class ownership of cars, DSTV and home computers.

    Yet the rhetoric continues unchallenged and unabated. “Privileged Whites still control the economy” and Blacks are poor enslaved victims who have nothing – whitie must give them more.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Way to debate, OBS! You are right, of course.

    Consider JZ’ statement last week (not his stream of lies about Nkandla) that the unemployed masses lack skills because of Apartheid.

    Black children have been told since 1976 ‘liberation before education!’

    If you wish I can post again the record of Harry Schwarz’ address to parliament noting the training facilities that existed to upskill the unemployed but that they faced the danger of being overrun by sheer numbers? Then South Africa’s black population was 16m+?

    The ANC never mentions the Skills Act nor the NQF anymore and they condemned the SETAs by using them as a dumping ground – soft jobs for family and friends?

    ANC affiliate SADTU has ruined generations of black children’s futures by giving them less than Bantu education. But the last thing on Zuma’s mind is the truth – he needs to keep stoking the fires because there is nothing on that ANusClown election platform but racial animosity.

    Mamphela Ramphele is already warning next year’s election is going to be a ‘wit gevaar’ one. If the municipal election was such a damaging one to race relations what is the modus vivendi going to look like then?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Yes, quite!

    Pity they could not acquire values like ‘good governance’ by osmosis….

    Dmwangi says:
    March 25, 2013 at 0:13 am

  • Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 25, 2013 at 9:28 am

    Goofy,

    “Pity they could not acquire values like ‘good governance’ by osmosis….”

    Err, ummm … “good governance” from/by whom?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs, Brett. Dmwangi, OB etc

    We may have different views about South African politics — but we can share PRIDE in the role that our women and men in the SANDF are playing in spreading and defending the value of UBUNTU in central Africa as we speak!

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    LOL@Maggs. How about the people running Grahamstown municipality?

    I know I know. I also used to think governance did not get much worse than the way the NP did it (except maybe the Bantustans!)

    Boyyyy, was I in for a surprise?

    Now the whole country is run like a Bantustan. Presidential palace relatively, proportionally and befittingly more maggsnificent, of course!

    Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    March 25, 2013 at 9:49 am

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “Black children have been told since 1976 ‘liberation before education!’”

    Brett, you may be unaware that this slogan was dropped altogether in 1994. Since then, the government has TRANSFORMED the education system, which has included (a) getting rid of MUD schools (b) firing teachers who are dermatologically poor role models for our learners, and (c) introducing a new maths curriculum that gives learners the counting skills they need to build our country, rather than wasting time with obscure WHITIST geometry and ARABIST algebra!

    Thanks

  • Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 25, 2013 at 10:22 am

    Hey FUBAR Guy,

    “How about the people running Grahamstown municipality?”

    That’s rather like comparing running a family-owned boutique with a major chain.

    Suggesting that our country is in more shambles that it ought to have been in may have some merit.

    It’s also “reasonable, possibly true” that the ANC has been mainly responsible for the huge fuck up that we call government.

    But to suggest that we’re coming from a better place is scraping the bottom of the barrel!

    p.s. You still haven’t said why god made WHITE people from mud!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Oh, big deal. One pro among all the cons – we were Madiba and the Arch’s Rainbow Nation for a while. The rset is mostly bad.

    Take the day off and read Andrea Jeffery’s ‘People’s War’ to read how the ANC terrorised the black population into a monolithic voting block.

    Then see if you can find Stephen Ellis’ book on the ANC in exile.

    It was all so utterly predictable.

    Now, after 18 years of ANC wheel-spinning, the authoritarian kleptocratic state is all so utterly predictable.

  • Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 25, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    Hey Brett,

    “Take the day off and read Andrea Jeffery’s ‘People’s War’ to read how the ANC terrorised the black population into a monolithic voting block.”

    That interesting book aside, I recall my own experience.

    I was still deciding on which political party to support when a group of 1000 bandits (thanks President Professor Zuma) came upon me.

    “If you don’t vote for the ANC we will tear you from limb to limb” they said. “we’ll burn your house and steal your belongings”.

    I kindly told them that they should steal my belongings BEFORE they burned my house – they were grateful for the advice!

    After that terrifying experience, I support the ANC!

    WDYSTT eh?