Constitutional Hill

Constitutional Court more pro-poor than the government

Given recent statements by Gwede Mantashe, Secretary General of the ANC, and President Jacob Zuma complaining about alleged “interference” by the judiciary in the work of the elected branches of government (the legislature and the executive), it is perhaps understandable that an announcement by cabinet about a new “assessment on the transformation of the judicial system and the role of the judiciary in a developmental state” will be carried out by a “reputable research institution” created an outcry. As I wrote earlier this week, trust in the ANC government amongst the chattering classes is at an all time low, given daily reports of corruption in our media and given the passing of the Secrecy Bill by the National Assembly.

Only a few minutes after the statement was released my phone started ringing as journalists anxiously sought confirmation that this statement must be read as a full-frontal attack on the independence of the judiciary. Journalists focused especially on the announcement that cabinet agreed to an approach to the transformation of the judicial system that would include an “assessment of the decisions of the Constitutional Court”, to be “undertaken by a research institution to establish how the decisions of the court have impacted on the lives of ordinary citizens and how these decisions have influenced socio-economic transformation and the reform of the law”.

However, on its face, this statement could be viewed as a positive development. If a truly independent and reputable research institution conducts such an assessment, it will inevitably find that the decisions of the Constitutional Court – perhaps more than the actions of the legislature and the executive — have by and large impacted positively on the lives of ordinary citizens and have facilitated socio-economic transformation. Where the Constitutional Court has handed down judgments that could be viewed as anti-poor, the decisions have almost always endorsed the policies of the government.

I am thinking, for example, of the Mazibuko judgement in which the installation of pre-paid water meters in Phiri, Soweto were unsuccessfully challenged by the residents of that area. The policy was devised and implemented by the ANC-led Metro government of Johannesburg and in my view discriminated against poor black residence of parts of Soweto. The Constitutional Court declined to intervene because the Metro’s policy was adapted over time.

However, in many other cases, the Constitutional Court has either endorsed transformative policies of the government or declared invalid anti-poor policies and laws passed by the ANC national or provincial governments. In the Grootboom case, the Treatment Action Campaign case, the Khosa case, the Jaftha case, and the Glennister case the Constitutional Court handed down judgments that had the effect of extending social and economic rights benefits to the poor, protected them from discrimination and unfair treatment or placed duties on the government to fight corruption, the very corruption that disproportionately affect the lives of the poor and the marginalised who depend on the honest and efficient state to provide it with the minimum basic goods and services required for them to survive and live a meaningful life.

The most telling case in this regard is the judgment of the Constitutional Court in the case of Abahlali Basemjondolo Movement SA and Another v Premier of the Province of Kwazulu-Natal and Others in which the Constitutional Court struck down sections of the KwaZulu-Natal Elimination and Prevention of Re-emergence of Slums Act. This Act, passed by the ANC-led legislature in KwaZulu-Natal, represented a full frontal attack on the poor, the homeless and those living in informal settlements. It might well have been passed in an attempt to undermine Abahlali Basemjondolo and to provide the government with legal tools to harass its members. The Act would have required landlords to evict all “slum dwellers” (a term last used by the apartheid government in the 1960ties) and was thus found to breach the right of access to housing guaranteed in the Constitution.

A credible report assessing the work of the Constitutional Court will have to come to the conclusion reached above, answering the very criticism of Mantashe, Zuma and others in the ANC who have convinced themselves that the courts interfere with the abilities of the other branches of government to effect socio-economic transformation. Any other conclusion will not be credible and no academic worth his or her salt would put their name to a report that concludes differently. If the assessment is done properly, it may therefore help to silence critics of the Constitutional Court.

This does not mean that other aspects of the cabinet statement are not worrying as they suggest a complete lack of respect for the separation of powers doctrine, which is inherent in a system of checks and balances in a constitutional democracy with a supreme Constitution. Two statements in particular can be interpreted to mean that the executive wishes to meet privately (read, in secret) with members of the judiciary to “engage” judges and to try and convince them that they should stop finding that the government is in breach of the Constitution. Notably the statement says:

Thirdly, to affirm the independence of the judiciary as well as that of the executive and parliament with a view to promoting interdependence and interface that is necessary to realize transformation goals envisaged by the Constitution. ….. Appropriate mechanisms be developed to facilitate for regular interface between the three spheres of the State to enhance synergy and constructive engagement among them in pursuit of common transformative goals that are geared to benefit the society at large.

There is nothing wrong with the leadership of the judiciary engaging the executive on issues dealing with access to justice and the better running of the judicial system. The government is elected to provide better access to justice and has to ensure that the system works well. In as much as formal discussions between the branches of government can facilitate the better functioning of our court system and easier access to courts, the move should be welcomed.

However, it is absolutely inappropriate for the executive to engage judges in a way that would even give the appearance that the members of the executive are trying to persuade judges to make decisions in individual cases that are more in line with the policy choices of the government. This would represent a full frontal attack on the independence of the judiciary and the system of checks and balances put in place by our Constitution.

Judges usually do not engage anyone about their past or future judgments (no matter what Judge President John Hlophe might think). They speak through their judgements and engage in this formal sense in a dialogue with the other two branches of government who can then respond appropriately to the judgments of the courts to ensure that they comply with the Constitution. Judges do not and cannot be seen to engage with members of the executive with a view of achieving “synergy” between the views of the executive and the judiciary.

In a constitutional democracy any synergy that exists between the executive and the judiciary is imposed by the various provisions of the Constitution as interpreted by the Constitutional Court. The judiciary is in dialogue with the executive in a formal way through their judgments but they are not “interdependent” with the other branches of government in the way hinted at by the statement (in the sense that they have to meet with the executive and agree on a plan of action on how best to effect transformation without embarrassing the bumbling lawyers appointed by the President and Parliament). If this is what the statement implied, it is wrong and dangerous and the intentions expressed in it would then be proposing an unconstitutional breach of the separation of powers doctrine, which is a doctrine that is deeply entrenched in our constitutional law.

What is needed is for this statement to be clarified. As it stands it can easily lead to the conclusion that the cabinet has a particularly dangerous and unconstitutional view of the relationship between the executive and the members of the judiciary. The judiciary — unlike the legislature and the executive — is completely independent and is required to be seen to be independent from the other branches of government. Secret talks about the transformative goals of the government with a view to “pull together” (which could easily mean, pull in the same direction as the executive – even when it acts in breach of the Constitution) would therefore not be acceptable. Indeed, it would represent a shocking attack against the Constitution itself.

As I suggested, the statement could, at a stretch, be interpreted differently to mean only that the executive would like to engage the leadership of the judiciary to improve access to justice and the efficiency of the courts. If that is the case, this should be made clear. If, however, the cabinet believes that it is appropriate for them to have secret chats with members of the judiciary to ensure policy synergies between them and the judiciary so that judges would not declare invalid the bumbling actions of the legislature and the executive, then the cabinet is shockingly ignorant and is embarking on a road to destroy our constitutional democracy. No judge who respects the Constitution would be party to such talks.

  • mhlongo

    “A credible report will have to come to the conclusion reached above, answering the very criticism of Mantashe, Zuma and others in the ANC who have convinced themselves that the courts interfere with the abilities of the other branches of government to effect socio-economic transformation. Any other conclusion will not be credible and no academic worth his or her salt would put their name to a report that concludes differently.”
    hmmmmm so the only conclusion that’s credible is your own Prof ( sies how arrogant). Suka!!! Prof, when the report is finally made, the issue of whether its conclusions are credible or not will be assessed on the merits of the argument put forward in the report not on whether its conclusions are similar to yours.

    In fact, Prof is saying that if the report reaches conclusions he doesn’t like, then the report is flawed. Suka!!! Prof ungazondlala apha.

    To cabinet I have this piece of advice, make sure that the indepedent research institution to be chosen is not UCT.

  • Moustache

    Hopefully, the clarification that is called for in your concluding paragraph comes soon, before your journalists publish their ‘full-frontal attack’ pieces, after which, any subsequent clarification is likely to be met with public suspicion. May the ANC speak with haste and the media with due caution.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    The fact that many different democracies use the phrase “separation of powers” to describe the regulation of the relationship between the three arms of government can mask the fact that each constitutional framework has its own understanding of the relationship between the arms of government. The particular conception of the “separation of powers” in any particular constitutional democracy requires a careful analysis of its constitutional text as well as its constitutional practice.

    Moreover, the precise contours of the doctrine of the separation of powers are, arguably everywhere, somewhat uncertain. As a result, the question, in effect, raised by the President – “what is the proper domain of the Courts?” – is a question which gives rise to sharply divided answers, not only in our democracy, but in many others as well.

    Take the United Kingdom, for example, where parliament has historically been considered to be sovereign in that it is free to make any law it likes. Even there, the debate over the role of courts in the British democracy is vigorous. Just two weeks ago, Jonathan Sumption QC, the newest appointment to the British Supreme Court (as the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords was recently renamed), argued that the European Convention has required judges to deal with “matters (namely the merits of policy decisions) which in a democracy are the proper function of parliament and of ministers answerable to parliament and the electorate”.[8]

    He continued “parliamentary scrutiny is generally perfectly adequate for the purpose of protecting the public interest in the area of policy making. It is also the only way of doing so that carries any democratic legitimacy.” You can see the startling similarity between these remarks and those made by President Zuma.

    Accordingly, we should not immediately be alarmed when debates about the proper ambit of judicial power arises. It is a debate that is endemic in democracies. But the question of the proper role of the courts, and the Constitutional Court in relation to policy is a recurring question in our democracy. It is a serious question and, Mrs Suzman would have agreed, it warrants considered analysis and a serious response.

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/justice-kate-oregans-helen-suzman-memorial-lecture/

  • sirjay jonson

    “However, it is absolutely inappropriate for the executive to engage judges in a way that would even give the appearance that the members of the executive are trying to persuade judges to make decisions in individual cases that are more in line with the policy choices of the government. This would represent a full frontal attack on the independence of the judiciary and the system of checks and balances put in place by our Constitution.”

    Is there any doubt that this is what they intend? Time to trust those gut feelings produced by years of evidence that the ANC is very deliberate about weakening any restraints on their actions, deliberate and systematic.

    I would suggest:

    a) that judges insure any interviews are held with a chosen witness, with tape recorders running; not just to protect themselves, but we the public as well.

    b) that an organization such as FUL initiate a similar probe with what they decide is a respected research institution.

    As for you mhlongo, as someone who obviously holds no respect for excellence, are you not able to grasp that the public has very good reasons, and now anger, never to trust the ANC again? Do you really think all South African citizens are fools?

  • Gwebecimele

    Turok the ethics man, one month salary and all is forgiven.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/one-final-fractious-session-in-the-house-1.1186661

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs (quoting O’Regan J)

    “It is a serious question and, Mrs Suzman would have agreed, it warrants considered analysis and a serious response.”

    Maggs, with respect, I am not interested in whether “Madam” Suzman would have agreed or disagreed with anything. Like its hobbled spawn, the DA, her liberal RACISM could never have represented the aspirations of our people.

  • khosi

    Thabo Mbeki says : “Miss me, yet?”

  • khosi

    Thabo Mbeki says : “Miss me, yet?”

    I forgot the proverbial “LOL!”

  • ozoneblue

    I would say fuck the chattering classes. Zuma just fired two corrupt ministers, appointed a new investigation into the arms deal and the ANC suspended Jlius Malema. What else must they do to please the likes of PdV?

  • Brett Nortje

    khosi says:
    November 25, 2011 at 16:55 pm

    Er, NO!

    I do see someone beckoning from the ICC, though…

  • sirjay jonson

    ozoneblue
    November 25, 2011 at 17:08 pm

    Well that’s a simple question, how many answers do you want?

  • Brett Nortje

    JZ is seriously misreading the mood in the country.

    Unlike Pierre, I do not do most of my shopping at Woolies. When the Metro news-on-the-hour came on on Tuesday there was a lot of shaking of heads and clenching of teeth.

    JZ was ‘man of the people’ because ‘the people’ felt he was being put upon and they were gatvol of the evil little dwarf anyway because of his AIDS policies when they were beginning to see the impact on their families.

    Now ‘the people’ are deciding JZ is a crook.

  • sirjay jonson

    ozoneblue: are you really that naive? Are you wondering what all the fuss is about?

    Perhaps this address will answer your questions with one simple answer, and remember, the chattering classes you would like fucked are really the intelligent educated class aware of history, social movement, that sort of thing; if interested see the following:

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2011/06/13/zapiro-cartoons

  • Brett Nortje

    The Constitutional Court has not diverted R243 billion from the poor to bail out parastatals run into the ground by deployed cadres.

  • sirjay jonson

    @Brett:

    Thanks for the chimera comment in a past blog. Chimera: head of a lion (my heart is in my head) body of a goat (well I am still active to my partner’s lavish appreciation) and tail of a snake (only when I’m seriously annoyed).

    Should make a suitable handle, don’t you think?

  • ozoneblue

    Tbh I am just soo tired of the constant whining and bitching. PdV will probably only be happy when the gay party governs SA and every bloke gets a blow job a day for free.

  • Wedende

    Is this Judicial Inquisition? While at it, why not review the effectiveness of the:
    1. State Attorney 2. NPA 3. Police 4. Presidency 5. Parliament

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 25, 2011 at 15:14 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    You do know that we don’t speak ill of the dead.

    Please show some respect in future when you speak of her, JR and COPE.

    Anyway if she was such a superstar, why are the DA constantly quoting Mandela?

  • sirjay jonson

    ozoneblue: don’t get blue’r man, and please for the sake of propriety, antics in the bedroom are no business of the government or anyone else. I mean, do you want someone questioning or restricting your sexuality.

    Simply put: we want and demand western Democracy where the rights of all the people are honored, where law is not brutal, but polite and effective, where taxes are utilized to uplift the disadvantaged and the poor, where education is outstanding and the opportunities it presents are vital to everyone, where we can walk the streets at night without fear, and most importantly that we can be proud of South Africa, proud of our government, as a nation among nations.

  • ozoneblue

    Constant, irrational, ideology/ racism driven criticism without any credit given where it is due just make the governing party shrug their shoulders and to say we are doomed if we do, doomed if we don’t.

    I have never been more positive about the government, ANC and the future of SA. I want Jacob Zuma for a second term.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 25, 2011 at 16:57 pm

    Hey Khosi,

    “Thabo Mbeki says : ‘Miss me, yet?’”

    LOLOLOLOLOL!

    Not a chance.

    Enjoy early retirement.

  • ozoneblue

    @sj

    If you want a western democracy I suggest you move to the West. There is no place for racists like you in SA. I say it with respect and with best intentions. Take a look on an atlas or a worl map. You would note you life in South Africa and not in the UK or or in Germany.

  • sirjay jonson

    Maggs: it may be hard to accept, but really, ask yourself this question while perhaps, if I may suggest, breathing calmly in deep meditation free of prejudice, anger or hatred: Which party in SA represents the original and promised words and intent of Madiba, he who diminished our worried population in the early 90’s, allaying our fears that black ruled Democracy and the Constitution might not prevail to the benefit of all?

    How can anyone deny that the legacy of Madiba is no longer held by the ANC?

    I won’t bore you with a repeat of his ‘freedom of the press speech as long as the ANC ruled’. And is it possible you think we are wrong in feeling betrayed?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    sirjay jonson
    November 25, 2011 at 18:14 pm

    Sirjay,

    “How can anyone deny that the legacy of Madiba is no longer held by the ANC?”

    What exactly is ‘the legacy of Madiba’?????

  • sirjay jonson

    ozenblue: do you realize what a fool you make of yourself calling me a racist, not that I care, or that I should move back to the west. Why is it ozen that you and your ANC choose the worst dictators in the world. Money laundering by the way, just a hint.

    How can I not think that you don’t give a damn about people? How can I not think that you have little education, little opportunity to compare systems of government, little of any awareness that Democracy in terms of serving one’s population to their betterment is one whole lot better than ripping them off.

    You need to travel ozen, compare systems, try North Korea for starters, then China, and then when you want to relax try Scandanavia, Canada, the south western US, open your mind and opportunities, then return and tell me I’m wrong.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Dworky,

    What’s say you to this?

    http://mg.co.za/article/2011-11-25-ramphele-cabinets-talk-undermines-our-intelligence

    Maybe the vacuum left by populist Malema is filling up too rapidly!

  • sirjay jonson

    Maggs: you surprise me.

    Answer: the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    sirjay jonson
    November 25, 2011 at 18:25 pm

    Sirjay,

    You’re seriously confused.

    Do some basic reading about the history of our country.

    The ANC, while home to some of the most phenomenal persons ever, is a collective.

    Mandela was but one of these – as admirable as he may be, he is not the ANC.

    Our Constitution is a product of the entire nation.

  • sirjay jonson

    Well Maggs, are you suggesting there would even be a Constitution without Madiba?

    Collective, yes, a collective dictatorship.

  • sirjay jonson

    It truly amazes me that so many forget what Madiba made possible. I know, you all think that the ANC alone was responsible for the change in South Africa. But really, have you given any consideration to the fact that it was Madiba that made it possible by making it possible for the west to accept the emancipation of South Africa.

    Madiba is actually greater than the ANC… if anyone doubts me, then consider Zuma, juju and our present regime.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    sirjay jonson
    November 25, 2011 at 18:40 pm

    Sirjay,

    You’re totally confused.

    I’ll leave you with the reality that Mandela is a product of the ANC not the other way around.

  • sirjay jonson

    Previous engagement, discussion to be continued. I’m off.

  • sirjay jonson

    One final comment Maggs: Madiba is a product of the ANC, you say. No, he is a product of the oppression produced by racism and exploitation, unjustified imprisonment and was the man in a unique moment of time with respect to the evolution of human rights in our agonized world.

    Madiba is head and shoulders above the ANC. He appealed to the heart of compassionate people world wide, to the desire for harmony among the races now numbered in the billions. South Africa may not realize it but Madiba rises above this country and its petty squabbles. Although its a pity we shame him with our actions.

    Perhaps you are not aware, but recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize are world wide figures, (like the Dalai Lama, remember him) not ANC or national figures, but global giants leading to a better future.

    Madiba is not an ANC icon. He is a world icon. The ANC is a mouse in comparison.

  • ozoneblue

    @sk

    It was Mbeki and Tambo that negotiated the current dispensation. If you don’t know even that simple little fact it is not worth having any debate with you.

  • ozoneblue
  • Brett Nortje

    What are the synonyms for Chimera, Sirjay?
    Dream, fantasy, delusion?

    Shall I tell you about the Nobel Peace Prize winner who was busy chasing a Greek around a boat’s cabin when he should have been concentrating on our future?

    Niccolò Machiavelli
    Put not your trust in princes, bureaucrats or generals, they will plead expedience while spilling your blood from a safe distance.

    Psalm 146:3
    Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “ANC … home to some of the most phenomenal persons ever…”

    Maggs, most of us would agree that your party has harboured some of the most superlatively phenomenal people in the history of the species. But tell us this: who would you view as the single most PHENOMENAL cadre, excluding Floyd?

    Ozoneblue, assuming you go along with Maggs’ view on degrees of phenomenality, whom would you nominate as the SECOND most phenomenal? Please answer promptly.

  • anton kleinschmidt

    @ Sirjay…you are a roll…keep it up.

    There is something rather sad when the greatness of Mandela is confused with the activities of mere politicians and technocrats who were doing nothing more than fleshing out his initiatives under his guidance.

    He is the pivotal character who made the new dispensation a reality and without him the new South Africa would look very different.

    It seems that rubbishing his legacy has become de rigueur within the ranks of certain fringe elements of the ANCs chattering classes. Maybe it is an anti “whiteliness” thing.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 26, 2011 at 7:17 am

    Dworky,

    “But tell us this: who would you view as the single most PHENOMENAL cadre, excluding Floyd?”

    I dunno why you want to exclude Floyd – but he is very occupied taking calls all three lines 1,2,3 are constantly busy with calls from some who write here. Nonetheless I’ve been assured that he’ll make time for a few more. You wanna call him?

    Anyway – the answer to your question is : god.

    God (let’s call god he for now) does a lot of things for the ANC – he’s keeping his only son back for a while until our politics has matured, he’s sent his second son on a mission ‘sort out the CC’, sometimes (according to President Zuma) he doubles as government.

    Then he told that pastor, Ray Marley (?), of the big church to join the ANC. The pastor listened.

    There’s my number one – vote ‘yes’ by sms 10810. smses will cost you a lot.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Sirjay, it is encouraging that even people who are not too keen on the ANC itself still have so many good things to say about “Madiba,” as you affectionately call him. But, apart from being arguably the finest human being of our time, President Mandela was also gifted with great prescience. Did he not the anticipate the very import of the ANC Youth League in our democratic politics by saying that 14-year olds should have the right to vote? He was also keenly aware of the dangers of a free press; in 1997 he attacked black journalists who criticised government as disloyal. Most impressively, Mandela revealed long ago that Gadaffi was a great African revolutionary and, so it is said, helped arrange that his grandson bore the name of the Brother Leader!

  • ozoneblue

    anton kleinschmidt says:
    November 26, 2011 at 7:20 am

    @ Sirjay…you are a roll…keep it up.

    It is has always been amusing for me to see how important it was for the Whiteliness and the DA to try everything in their power to try and separate the “greatness of Nelson Mandela” (whom they themselves had classified a terrorist) from that evil and corrupt ANC. It is sad, desperate, pathetic and ironical cause they themselves would extol the virtues of “Western democracy” which rejects this kind of personality cult worship which is typical of most dictatorships.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    anton kleinschmidt
    November 26, 2011 at 7:20 am

    Hey AK,

    “There is something rather sad when the greatness of Mandela is confused with the activities of mere politicians and technocrats who were doing nothing more than fleshing out his initiatives under his guidance.”

    You’re correct if the implication is that wonky leaders can take organisations to where it was not intended to go.

    Mandela was and is still a disciplined cadre of the ANC. It was probably for good reason, albeit a difficult one, when the choice for a face for the anti-apartheid struggle ultimately came down to between Sisulu and Mandela.

    I’ve heard that the organisation chose Sisulu, but Sisulu himself wanted Mandela. Both are heroes. And icons. There are many, many others.

    But you’re wrong about ‘the Mandela legacy’. While, without doubt, there are icons to be admired and respected, the ANC is neither about individuals nor about events.

    Indeed it is true that individuals and events influence the shape and character of the movement, as some would say the ANC is more than the sum of its parts.

    Someday somebody smart will explain whether there is such a thing as ‘the Mandela legacy’ and if there is, what it means.

  • ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    November 26, 2011 at 7:17 am

    Chris Hani.

    He moved into the same working class Afrikaner suburb where my family lived and practiced what he preached. Most in the ANC feared him and that was not because he was a corrupt hypocrite, but because he was not willing to make the same kind of ideological compromises that would benefit the elite. Hani would have been the next president of South Africa after Nelson Mandela and I was not surprised at all when he was assassinated accordingly.

  • ozoneblue

    It was in fact Nelson Mandela that oversaw the introduction of race based Affirmative Action and BEE. It was Nelson Mandela that decided to keep Apartheid racial classifications on the law books. This is part of the same “legacy” of Nelson Mandela that the DA selectively rejects.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Dworky,

    I changed my mind.

    I found my hero, Michael Tellinger.

    “There’s a battle for Earth by some interesting dark forces,” said author, scientist and researcher Michael Tellinger, who organised the conference.

    “All the governments in the world are puppets and instruments to implement the will of a small group of individuals. The royal political bloodline goes back thousand of years.”

    He said the royal political bloodline was a small group of families whose origins could be traced to the first of mankind and who were inevitably in contact with the aliens.

    He said the South African government was one of the most important puppets of these extra-terrestrials.

    http://www.news24.com/SciTech/News/Aliens-use-Earth-as-battleground-20111125

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
  • ozoneblue

    The History and Character of ‘Black Economic Empowerment’

    http://allafrica.com/stories/201103150144.html

    “Besides its more widespread ‘deployment’ as the generic underpinning of South Africa’s ‘transitional’ political economy – for example, in the service of the SACP and COSATU’s continued alliance with the ANC – what we now have is a concerted attempt by the ANC to resurrect the practical applicability of NDR theory as the macro framework for pursuing BEE and rationalising all its other associated and contradictory ‘developmental’ policies and activities. In this respect, its crucial function is to provide justification for the existence and expansion of a (‘patriotic’) black bourgeoisie – which practically represents the leading ‘motive force’ – alongside continued and close cooperation with white capital.

    The result is that contemporary BEE in South Africa has become, more than ever, the prime practical vehicle for elite accumulation, rent seeking and corruption as well as the conceptual cover for extreme inequality”

    As I said before the failure of the ANC is not because of the lack of moral fiber of individuals, but rather because of a failure of the capitalist value system that they have adopted.

  • ozoneblue

    “that is necessary to realize transformation goals envisaged by the Constitution.”

    “transformation goals” – so in the light of the goals of the NDR, what exactly does that mean. A new racial discrimination that is based on the doctrine of racial “demographics” or entitlement, or the upliftment of the real “historically disadvantaged” i.e. the impoverished masses in the rural areas and the townships?

  • khosi

    @Maggs Naidu

    Just keep on telling yourself what feels comfortable!

    Whoever was wondering as to why TM accepted the Polokwane nomination is getting a free lesson, courtesy oh history.

    Even the Malalas of this world have seen the light.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 26, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Hey Khosi,

    “Whoever was wondering as to why TM accepted the Polokwane nomination …”

    That’s easy – President-for-life syndrome which is pretty contagious.

    Succession planning is not so hard for those who actually want to be succeeded.

  • khosi

    @Maggs Naidu,

    Which ‘President for life’ tells a group of about 60 people that he would resign if, they asked him to, and proceeds to do so with a resounding farewell speech to the 50 million people who elected him in the first place?

    ….then keeps his distance from politics, while continuing on the very same values he preached when they had the power?

    You see, to TM, no matter what position he holds or does not hold, he will make time for his contribution to make Africa prosper.

  • ozoneblue

    Dr. Charles W. Mills – Does Race Exist?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAv6Q6da_o

    More of the intellectually impoverished RACE thinking. He mentions Apartheid South Africa as a prime examples of his RACE doctrine, but what then about the pre-Apartheid and post-Apartheid South Africa’s? No problem, just ignores any possibility of role reversal or reverse racism by constructing a “thought experiment” where Europe is colonized by Africa for some inexplicable reason (it clearly would not help to bring the motivation i.e link between slavery, cheap labor, capitalism and colonialism into such a dim-witted analogy). Then he comes to the astoundingly irrational conclusion that if Europe was colonized by Africa he would be seen as a “White guy” irrespective of the ostensible color of his skin. The theme is consistent with other Black Consciousness/Nationalism thinking and recurrent in the dogma of the “transformation agenda” – the quintessential “Black man” as the eternal and perpetual victim that must for ever be affirmed in a universe that then obviously must be infinitely White and racist.

    What a steaming pile of racist horse shit.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 26, 2011 at 14:08 pm

    Hey Khosi,

    We’ve had a similar exchange earlier.

    TM was recalled. many we’re happy to see him go, his tearful farewell notwithstanding. RIP.

    But you disappeared before saying what it was that Charlene Smith herself said about rape that drew his ire.

    Unless you know something that the rest of don’t in that regard and can say what it is, I hold my view that the oke was cuckoo. And good riddance to him.

    Of course I am open to changing my view for sound reasons!

  • Brett Nortje

    One thing we we do need to acknowledge about Mbeki that is definitely not true about Zuma is that he kept a tight grip on the purse-strings and hated getting into debt.

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 26, 2011 at 15:35 pm

    And that is where the typical White racist or apologist for the capitalists status quo stands. The “good Blacks” like Mbeki and Mandela that maintain the socio-economical status quo which serves the interest of both White and Black capitalist interests are generally praised. On the either hand they pursue a neoliberal agenda that is not much different from that of the ruling party besides for the angle of the racist rhetoric and which racial groups are supposed to benefit most in the racist shit fight.

  • ozoneblue

    Thabo Mbeki must be spending a few sleepless nights. Since Zuma reinstated the arms deal investigation I have no doubt that the spotlight this time would fall squarely on the BAE deal. Tony Blair’s timely visits to South Africa in 1999 and rumors that BAE paid for the ANC’s 1999 election campaign. Thabo has a proud history as a stooge of British corporate interest.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 26, 2011 at 15:57 pm

    Yes! I agree with you. I’ll ask you the same question I asked Gwebecimele, unless you’re just making pleasing noise too….

    What are you doing to wean white South Africans away from this idea that big business is a safe-haven when in fact the Afrikaner elite is largely responsible for the mess we find ourselves in, being more interested in their hobbies like gholf than keeping score on the how manieth member of their neighbour’s extended family it is who has been murdered?

    Do you take the same unsophisticated view that the white middle class and the Afrikaner elite are one and the same? (Gwebecimele says they’ll seek toenadering when whites are all taxi-drivers and garbage collectors….)

    Then, there are the facts of the matter. Are you saying that South Africa is as poised to ward off a Euro-style credit crunch under JZs governance as Mbeki’s?

    Heard of Moodies?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 26, 2011 at 15:35 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    Stop talking nonsense.

    You do know what Prof Hume had to say about that!

  • sirjay jonson

    @Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
    November 26, 2011 at 9:24 am

    @ozoneblue
    November 26, 2011 at 9:23 am

    First, we all have to have our heroes. And I admit that ‘Nelson’ fell initially in my eyes by my being aware of reasons other posters have detailed. However, Madiba is a beloved world icon, like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, even Tutu.

    These icons are folk who have suffered, sacrificed (even Tutu within his prayers, I’m sure) and all of them believe with intensity in ultimate goodness, and these icons who lead a significant portion of the world with their perceived greatness are far better than our petty juju types for example, who are everywhere.

    Of note, internationally Madiba was only considered a terrorist (and agreed, he was insuring certain possible threats from the NATS while negotiating, truce) by right wing yahoos, mostly american republicans who had their own racist issues; it was they american pseudo fascists who called him thus, right or wrong depending on view points and personal issues.

    However, we have certain world figures who represent the best of humanity and the possibility of a successful future for the world. Sorry to disappoint the naysayers but Madiba is one of these phenomenal former leaders who are now historically guaranteed political sainthood for good reasons. Then of course there’s my friend the Dalai Lama, (he’s called a terroist by the Chinese) whereas without question he is the world leader (head honcho) of all the living Peace Prize winners (by the way; when have you ever heard of a Buddhist nation going to war against another nation, and are you aware that Tibet is the only remaining country in the world still under foreign occupation)? Their exhibited form of terrorism is self immolation. Try putting your beliefs to that limit.

    For all those naysayers criticizing Madiba, the greater civilized Democratic world nations and their peoples still view him as saintly, unimpeachable, viewing him as preaching that all brothers and sisters, homo sapiens with red blood within all are brothers and sisters… and he will remain an icon to the benefit of global society regardless of the ANC.

    Start thinking globally and South Africa’s role in global, which is not as an economic benefactor but rather as one of many global members of an international society which desire peace makers, with the option of impacting fellow nations of the world dealing with racism, promoting only the desire for harmonious interaction between the races and between religions.

    Forgiveness and willingness was his message, powerful.

    Dislike him if you wish, yet he has set into life a principle and a challenge, which by surmounting we will only bring benefit to all. Thus he is justifiable an icon, above and beyond the ANC. And don’t tell me I can’t honor him while being a non-ANC voter, or by knowing the ANC as the destructive monster it is.

    Yes we have been betrayed by the ANC. That’s not Madiba’s doing.

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 26, 2011 at 16:26 pm

    What I’m saying is that the poverty issue is not as simple as Black and White.

    There are very powerful forces within the ruling party that doesn’t give a fuck about the upliftment of the poor or the plight of the victims of Apartheid (although they are using it as a emotive part of their propaganda), but rather are using existing racial inequalities as a smokescreen to pursue selfish interest based on a more politically correct reverse-racism that is in all aspects contradictory to and in conflict to the ideal of the much hyped “non-racialism” attributed to Nelson Mandela.

    Therefore, the lie that “transformation” necessarily implies socio-economic justice must be dismantled and exposed. Only once we have dealt as a nation with this inherent logical inconsistency or dishonestly can we renegotiate the terms of engagement and the subsequent political discourse.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    sirjay jonson
    November 26, 2011 at 20:11 pm

    Sirjay,

    “Dislike him if you wish”

    You’re talking kak.

    Disputing that there is such a thing as the ‘Mandela legacy’ has nothing to do with ‘disliking’.

    There’s a whole host of ANC leaders who are respected, admired even revered. Mandela is but one.

    If you want to have a discussion, don’t talk rubbish.

    p.s. Gandhi, by the way, is not in that league or anywhere near.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com says:
    November 26, 2011 at 21:46 pm

    Whaddya mean, ‘that league’?

    I’ve seen enough about Martin Luther King not to let him in the door.

    Can’t think of any ANC leaders I admire respect or revere. Or NP. Colin Eglin fought for our country. Jan Smuts? Now there was a man. Hard old bastard.

    For the rest? Put not your trust in princes. Generals. Bureaucrats. Politicians…

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 26, 2011 at 22:00 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    I dunno enough about the warts of MLK to engage.

    Anyway since you insist on quoting Psalm 146:3 I’ll pick you on that.

    According to your version there’s a god. Thus a heaven. Thus a wonderful place where people (excluding me and JR and Dworky) go when dead.

    So why do you want you mshini wam?

    Isn’t it better, according to your own views, that people die and go to that nice place in the clouds?

  • Brett Nortje

    A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring or a polluted well.

  • Brett Nortje

    How do you rob a strong man without binding him first?

  • Brett Nortje

    Let he who is without a sword sell his cloak and buy one!

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 26, 2011 at 22:00 pm

    “Can’t think of any ANC leaders I admire respect or revere. Or NP. Colin Eglin fought for our country. Jan Smuts? Now there was a man. Hard old bastard.”

    Interesting that you would rate one of the most renown British colonial sycophants and Afrikaner sell-outs. One of the first leaders ever that would callously butcher his own.

    http://www.joburgnews.co.za/march2002/1922strike.stm

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Father Reverend Brett,

    Have you lost your marbles or is it that you don’t have an answer?

  • sirjay jonson

    @Maggs:

    Your comment: Heavy dude. Gandhi was the source, both King and Mandela followed his lead.

    Sometimes you can find real gems in what you initially thought was rubbish.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs hasn’t heard of Kimberlite.

  • khosi

    @Maggs Naidu,

    How did we get from ‘President-for-life’ to the racist Charlene Smith who think all black men are exclusively sexual preditors?

    I think you have no further leg on the ‘President-for-life’ accusation.

  • ozoneblue

    Now here is Dr. Charles W. Mills “thought experiment” come real. It may be “transformation” Jim, but certainly not “revolution” as we know it.

    “Angola’s Eduardo Dos Santos offers help to Portugal”, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15790127

    “Former BBC Angola correspondent Louise Redvers say Mr Passos Coelho’s visit has highlighted the reversal of former colonial roles, with cash-strapped Portugal considering selling shares in state-owned companies to Angola. The family of Mr Dos Santos – who has been in power for 32 years – controls a large chunk of Angola’s economy, while most Angolans live in poverty. Mr Dos Santos’ daughter Isabel is known to have a large Portuguese portfolio, as does the state oil firm Sonangol, our former correspondent says.”

    but what about the Angolan people?

    “Not surprisingly, Angola also falls near the bottom on most global measures of socio-economic development. The UNDP’s most recent Human Development Index places it 166 out of 177 countries. While the World Bank estimates average per capita income at $740, relatively high for sub-Saharan Africa, Angola’s poverty reduction strategy (Estratégia de Combate à Pobreza [ECP] in Portuguese), notes that 68 percent of the population lives below the poverty line of $1.70 per day, with 28 percent living in extreme poverty on less than $0.70 per day. Angola’s health indicators are some of the worst in sub-Saharan Africa: the total fertility rate is estimated to be 7.2 births per woman, average life expectancy is only 40 years, the infant mortality rate is 154 per 1,000 live births, and the under-5 mortality rate is a staggering 260 per 1,000 live births. The tragedy is that this poor nation is an enormously wealthy country. Angola is the second-largest oil producer in sub-Saharan Africa and the seventh-largest supplier to the United States. Production currently stands at 1.6 million barrels per day and is rising. Oil accounts for almost half of GDP and about 75 percent of Government revenue. It, along with the potential that a stable, prosperous Angola has for deepening stability and spurring economic growth in the region, gives the United States a strong stake in Angola’s stability and prosperity. Angola is also the world’s fourth-largest producer of rough diamonds. Diamonds represent 95 percent of non-oil exports. Production is expected to reach $1 billion in 2006, with Angola’s diamond deposits still largely untapped.”

    http://www.usaid.gov/ao/about.html

    But the good USA are there to “help” with the “transformation” LOL –

    “focusing on improved food security, strengthened democratic governance, maternal and child health and HIV AIDS, and market-oriented economic analysis.”

    http://www.usaid.gov/ao/usaid_in_angola.html

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 27, 2011 at 5:35 am

    Hey Khosi,

    “How did we get from ‘President-for-life’ to the racist Charlene Smith who think all black men are exclusively sexual preditors?”

    That’s easy.

    The oke was a bullshitter. He created illusions to support his crazy ambitions.

    And you bought it. You cannot show a single (even tenuous) connection between the ridiculous accusation against Smith and anything she may have done or said. So he lied and you bought it. Have some balls and show a connection if you can or admit that you were misled.

    Re president for life. Its two terms and then bugger off. He did not want to bugger off. He fought a fierce battle to hanker on bringing up puerile excuses and support for his wanting to rule from the grave. His strategy included getting rid of any potential contender, side lining intellectuals to the fringes. And holding on to Jackie Selebi.

    Fortunately , apart from those who went to COPE, not many believe that crap.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Khosi/Maggs

    “How did we get from ‘President-for-life’ to the racist Charlene Smith who think all black men are exclusively sexual preditors?”

    Khosi is right. In fact, I see Madam Zille is the Charlene Smith of our day, in the rigid grip of an ideo-political discourse premised entirely on whitish girls’ horror of the African phallus. And Maggs, you of all people could benefit by a close reading on Suresh Robert’s ‘Fit to Govern.’

    Thanks.

  • ozoneblue

    In fact Mbeki reminds me a lot of Jan Smuts. A “good” African/Afrikaner dancing to his colonial puppet master’s strings.

    “Former MP claims Mbeki killed BAE bribery inquiry

    Feinstein said investigators uncovered evidence that Modise received at least 10m rand (£713,000) in bribes from BAE and a German weapons firm, but there was paperwork to suggest that up to R35m (£2.5m) in illegal payments had been made to the former defence minister who has since died. “Other key government players in the deal are alleged to have received millions in bribes. In addition, speculation has refused to go away that the ANC received millions of rands from the successful bidders, money that was probably used in our 1999 election campaign,” he writes.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/13/bae.southafrica

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 27, 2011 at 10:04 am

    Hey Dworky,

    “And Maggs, you of all people could benefit by a close reading on Suresh Robert’s ‘Fit to Govern.’”

    Hmmm – sounds interesting. I haven’t yet got around to reading that.

    Will it help if that I read ‘The Third Eye’ by Tuesday Lobsang Rampa?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Hey Khosi,

    Is Chery perhaps talking about you?

    “chery
    November 27, 2011 at 1:25 am

    Thanks , I have just been looking for info about this subject for a long time and yours is the best I’ve found out till now. But, what about the conclusion? Are you certain concerning the source?|What i don’t understood is if truth be told how you’re no longer actually much more smartly-appreciated than you might be now. You are very intelligent.”

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-corruption-in-south-africa/#comment-56647

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “Will it help if that I read ‘The Third Eye’ by Tuesday Lobsang Rampa?”

    No.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, see Sunday Times headline today:

    “I’M FINISHED – MALEMA”

    Would you say that means he is a “spent force”?

  • ozoneblue

    It would be fair to say that as far as British colonial sycophancy and revolutionary sell-outs goes Mbeki come as good as they get. No wonder the entire world was kicking and screaming when the “populist” Zuma and his “left-leaning” friends were elected by the South African people.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=MXVX3jW0XkIC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=mbeki+britain+%22third-way%22&source=bl&ots=2L4FmnA7d4&sig=gMtuKMn__1BYqLN_DjZZUwRtbdU&hl=en&ei=nQDSTtzFGM63hAfHk9nkDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=mbeki%20britain%20%22third-way%22&f=false

    http://articles.cnn.com/2001-06-12/world/britain.mbeki_1_foreign-investment-reuters-britain?_s=PM:WORLD

    I assume when he congratulates Britain he emphatically excluded Margaret Thatcher and the British right wing.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 27, 2011 at 11:26 am

    Dwork,

    Re “spent force”

    So far nothing has been ‘spent’ at my favourite fast food place.

    Watch this space – when I proclaim ‘FINGER LICKING GOOD’ then we have arrived at the inevitable conclusion.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 27, 2011 at 11:17 am

    Dworky,

    I’m thinking that you’re wrong about the Third Eye being irrelevant.

    Those with the Third Eye can see amazing things.

    Like “How can a virus cause a syndrome? It can’t!”

    And “Trust me on Selebi”.

    “There’s no crisis in Zimbabwe”.

    “Rape victims should lie back and enjoy it”.

    Maybe you want to revise your emphatic ‘No’.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 26, 2011 at 22:31 pm

    Complete kak!

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 27, 2011 at 14:13 pm

    Yes boet. Perhaps you studied beautified African history at the UCT’s Harry Oppenheimer Institute and you don’t know your head from your arse. But more White miners where massacred by your beloved British colonial puppet Jan Smuts than Verwoerd killed Black protesters at Sharpeville.

  • ozoneblue

    This is where the corruption and the betrayal of the revolution starts. Probably the incubator of the RACE politics used to perpetuate the tyrannical reign of the capitalist ruling class as well.

    “Scholarship in the Centre is supported by a number of special awards and postgraduate scholarships available to students in African Studies. The Centre administers the Harry Oppenheimer Institute Awards (HOI) which were established in 1976 in response to a generous donation from the Chairman’s Fund of the Anglo American Corporation and De Beers Consolidated Mines. HOI promotes research, facilitates conference attendance, assists students with awards and contributes to bringing prestigious Africanist scholars to the Centre.”

    http://www.africanstudies.uct.ac.za/default.php?pageName=awards.php

  • izeze
  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    izeze
    November 27, 2011 at 14:52 pm

    Izeze

    “Read this, and weep.”

    I am weeping at “Nelson Mandela is still alive. But his values – crafted during the struggle for freedom rather than during the struggle to govern – are already pretty near dead, people. Get used to it.” :cry:

    Sounds like Sirjay wrote that. Or got influenced by the guy who wrote it. It’s so very hard for these ‘conscientious objectors’ to acknowledge that the ANC under its leaders (some good, some awful, some both) is still the ANC.

    Blame Brett – Goofiness it seems is highly contagious.

    Anyway, sensationalism (rather than reason) seems to have overtaken commentators.

    The few bits of the bill which are problematic will be fixed either through processes still in the making or by order of the CC.

    As I said elsewhere, what ought to be in defence of our freedoms has turned out to be a fight against the ANC. It’s a fight that these silly okes are not going to win.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “what ought to be in defence of our freedoms has turned out to be a fight against the ANC.”

    Maggs, with respect, no. It has turned out to be a fight against the current LEADERSHIP of the ANC — which is to be distinguished from the ANC as a trans-historical, eternal institution, the repository of all things good and noble, and the only party that can represent the aspirations of our people.

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 27, 2011 at 15:46 pm

    Dworky,

    “Maggs, with respect, no.”

    ‘No’ again?

    That’s two. Third strike and you’re out.

    “It has turned out to be a fight against the current LEADERSHIP of the ANC”.

    Cud be.

    Either way, it’s the wrong fight to fight.

    But then issue driven fights are less dramatic and less sensational.

    What would a soapie be without playing the characters out, eh!

  • ozoneblue

    How bizarre absolutely. JZ fire a couple of corrupt ministers, Malema gets a solid kicked in the butt and best of all JZ appoints a new inquiry into the arms deal and all of a sudden everybody hates the ANC LEADERSHIP. lol. I give five thumbs up to Comrade Jacob Zuma. When these corrupt racists start hating you then you know you are on the right path.

    Viva ANC Viva!

  • ozoneblue

    izeze says:
    November 27, 2011 at 14:52 pm

    http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2011-11-23-black-tuesday-theres-more-where-that-came-from

    “No tenders. No tenders. NO TENDERS.”

    Yest but that is a special part of the neoliberal, pro-business DA agenda not so?

    “A philosophy that hinges on a belief in individualism, free enterprise, lowered taxes, deregulated economies and labour markets, and small government, neo-liberalism idealises free markets and the market-friendly State and privileges the ‘private sector’ or corporate interests at the expense of public interests and welfare.”

    http://epress.anu.edu.au/ssgm/global_gov/mobile_devices/ch02s02.html

    Talking of value systems – all those great leaders, from Mandela to Mbeki learned their nonracial, anti-greed and corruption value systems in the good old socialist schools of the SACP.

  • Willem Wikkelspies

    The morally and ethically bankrupt ANC , and their great unwashed support base and the remainder of the mannequins of the democratic store , have , in releasing the devil through the front door , allowed satan in the back door . Quo Vadis RSA .

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 27, 2011 at 14:39 pm

    What a superficial take on Smuts!

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 27, 2011 at 15:46 pm

    Dworky,

    “It has turned out to be a fight against the current LEADERSHIP of the ANC”

    Now that you’ve raised it, there’s a lot of ANCYL statements at national and some provincial levels attacking the ANC NDC.

    Even some personal attacks against the members.

    Do you think that this is where the ANCAL acquired the ‘tendency’ (i.e. to attack our judiciary) from?

  • Pingback: Review of Constitutional Court decisions? « Public Interest Law Gathering 2011()

  • Pierre De Vos

    ozoneblue, you remind me of an apologist for spousal abuse who says: “Why are you now whining on about that woman’s husband hitting her and breakling her legs and putting her in hospital. He bought her a box of chocolates last week and took her to the Spur for dinner. You are such an ungrateful sod. I ahave never been more confident that the husband loves his wife.” Something is either right or it is wrong. Just because the ANC government did some good things do not mean we must shut up when they try to undermine our democracy and our Constitution. There is, I am afraid, no logic in your stance. Just utter illogical emotion masquarading as high principle. I know why this is. You feel ashamed at what the ANC is doing and thus must go in denial. Very mucvh like the friends of a woman abuser.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Pierre

    With respect, no one will be convinced by your offensively sexist comparison of the ANC to an abusive spouse. The fact remains that it is, institutionally, a near-perfect vehicle for Our Peoples’ aspirations.

    Speaking on His People, I refer you to that journal of Christian philosophy, JOY (freely available at the Woolies checkout.) Accompanying a flattering photograph of yourself in cutout is a devastating critique of the RACIST campaign by the liberal media against Rev. M-squared!

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 26, 2011 at 22:31 pm

    Yup, Oom Jannie sounds like someone completely consumed by self-interest, huh?

    Another Frikkie?

    Generaal J.C. SMUTS spreekt als volgt : – Tot hiertoe heb ik mij
    in de discussie niet gemengd, hoewel mijne inzichten aan mijne
    Regeering niet onbekend zijn. Wij zijn gekomen tot een donker
    punt in de ontwikkeling van den oorlog en van onze zaak – voor
    mij des te donkerder en pijnliker, omdat ik een dier personen
    was, die als leden van de Regeering der Zuid-Afrikaansche
    Republiek den strijd met Engeland aanknoopten. Een mensch mag
    echter niet terugdeinzen voor de gevolgen zijner daden en wij
    moeten dus bij eene gelegenheid als deze alle privaat gevoel
    terughouden en alleen uitsluitelijk beslissen met het oog op de
    blijvende belangen van het Afrikaansche volk. Dit is voor ons een
    groot oogenblik, misschien het laatste, dat wij als een vrij volk
    en als eene vrije Regeering bij elkander zullen komen. Laten wij
    ons dus opheffen tot de hoogte en de grootheid van de
    gelegenheid en tot eene beslissing komen, waarvoor het
    Afrikaansche nageslacht ons zal zegenen en niet vervloeken. Het
    groot gevaar voor deze vergadering is, dat zij bloot uit een
    militair oogpunt tot een besluit zal komen. Bijna alle
    vertegenwoordigers hier aanwezig zijn officieren, die geen vrees
    ken-nen en die nooit bang zijn geweest en ook nooit bang zullen
    worden voor de overmacht des vijands, en die bereid zijn hun
    laasten droppel bloeds voor hun land en volk te geven. Nu,
    wanneer wij de zaak uit een militair oogpunt, als een krijgzaak,
    beschou-wen, dan moet ik erkennen, dat wij nog met den strijd
    kunnen voort-gaan. Wij zijn nog steeds een onoverwonnen
    krijgsmacht. Wij hebben nog omtrent 18,000 man in het veld,
    veteranen, met wie men bijna eenig werk kan doen. Onze zaak als
    een krijgzaak kunnen wij nog verder drijven. Maar wij zijn hier
    niet als een leger-macht, wij zijn hier als een volk ; wij hebben
    niet alleen een krijgs-zaak, maar ook een volkszaak. Niemand zit
    hier om zijn eigen commando te vertegenwoordigen. Iedereen
    vertegenwoordigt hier het Afrikaansche volk, niet alleen dat deel
    , dat thans in het veld is, maar ook dat gedeelte dat reeds onder
    de aarde rust, en dat deel, dat nog na ons zal bestaan. Wij
    vertegenwoordigen niet alleen onszelven, maar ook de duizenden
    ontslapenen, die het laaste offer gebracht hebben voor hun volk ;
    de gevangenen, verspreid over de geheele wereld ; de vrouwen en
    kinderen, die in de gevangenis-kampen des vijands bij duizenden
    uitsterven ; wij vertegenwoordigen het bloed en de tranen van een
    gansch volk. Zij roepen ons allen toe van uit de gevangenissen,
    de kampen, het graf, het veld en den schoot der toekomst om toch
    wijselijk te beslissen en alle stappe te vermeiden, welke kunnen
    leiden tot den ondergang en de uitroeiing van het Afrikaansche
    volk en welke dus de opofferingen, door hen gemaakt, zouden
    kunnen verijdelen.

  • Hamermen

    Given the doctrine of separation of powers, should the executive be commissioning such a study or should the study be commissioned by the judiciary itself. Imagine if the judiciary was commission a similar study about the executive! What the executive should be commissioning is a study on how its policies have impacted on the lives of the citizens or do we know that?

    Suppose for some other reasons the study finds that the decisions of the concourt have negatively impacted on the lives of citizens, then what? How does government intend to deal with the finding without interfering with the judiciary and without acknowledging failure since courts interpret legislation made by the executive?

    I think people must stop waisting time and resources and deal with real issues. The executive needs to do a self introspection not point fingures. Transformation cannot be interpreted as having the same views as those of the ANC NEC.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 26, 2011 at 22:31 pm

    Now tell me Vavi is going to remind the other Cosatu leaders sitting around the table that they are there representing a whole nation and to think of Sebengu and Mapule and Nkune and Onkarabile when they vote on Trevor Manuel’s NDP.

  • ozoneblue

    @bn

    Do you mind translating that into Afrikaans or English. I’m not a Dutchman, I’m an Afrikaner,and I speak Afrikaans that kitchen language formerly spoken by slaves.

  • Brett Nortje

    Just plain ignorant. Ds Kestell would be dismayed.

  • ozoneblue

    @pdv

    I think you are being a little bit melodramatic. This mass hysteria is absurd but typical of the Whiteliness as you called it ever since 1994. You said just on the other thread you found the the bill “reasonable”, nor can you point out what makes it so evil when compared to other democratic states. So how did it morph over night from reasonable to George Orwell and 1984?

  • khosi

    @Ozoneblue,

    Which corrupt ministers did the president fire?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozoneblue

    I agree with you sentiments, but, on a point of order, the proper term is “Whitishness.”

    “Whiteliness” is term used by Plascon Evans and professional interior designers.

  • khosi

    @Ozoneblue,

    Which corrupt ministers did the president fire?

    Were these ‘corrupt’ minister fired for being involved in corruption.

  • ozoneblue

    @khosi

    Perhaps you should start reading the news now and then and stop defending your corrupt British arse-licker Mbeki. And try a google on Mbeki Blair BAE.

  • khosi

    @ozoneblue,

    Do not make statements that lack fact. They make you sound like you do not know what you are talking about.

    FACT: Jacob Zuma has never said he was firing anyone because they were corrupt.

  • khosi
  • Alibhama

    ] The Act would have required landlords to evict all “slum
    ] dwellers” (a term last used by the apartheid government in the
    ] 1960ties) and was thus found to breach the right of access to
    ] housing guaranteed in the Constitution.
    As prof has repeatedly explained the constitution trumps all;
    but what about other conficting considerations, like: would the ground of
    ‘void ab initio’ [due to a municipal authority not complying with statutory
    requirements] trump out-of-time for a default judgment rescission application?
    The US puts great value on time limits, and the manipulation there of
    seems to be a main tactic of theirs. How do the top SA Courts see this;
    especially since the time limits were designed for white FUNCTIONING
    society? Eg. THEN the post-got-delivered-reliabily, and the banks were
    never wrong, and municipal accounts were correct and a non-functioning
    traffic light was as news worthy as a murder in NewZealand is today.
    Do subtle estopple related: ‘that ground should have been brought in
    the first application [you can’t have 2 attempts]'; reasons, trump “grossly
    against the national interest” [like a foreign court will be asked for an
    insurance to pay for a Zim-like property confiscation] grounds?
    Is it just PdV’s sickening PeeCee-speak, or do SA Courts also
    expect parties to avoid using direct terms like “slum dwellers”?
    Does ACCESS to housing just mean “no group areas act” or what?
    How can I get ACCESS to dancing girls and whisky — too?

  • ozoneblue

    Now there is an example of healthy democracy for you. Arrested for “blocking the streets”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15914092

    or arrested for “conspiracy to cause a public nuisance and breach of the peace.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/29/royal-wedding-arrests-route

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 28, 2011 at 15:18 pm

    LOL Khosi,

    “Do not make statements that lack fact. They make you sound like you do not know what you are talking about.”

    Ditto!

    I’m waiting.

  • khosi

    @Maggs,

    Well the point is, it is pointless to have a conversation with you because you do not use fact nor reason in your arguments. Hence I got bored and left things hanging.

    ;-)

  • Brett Nortje

    Too true. Too true.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 28, 2011 at 20:04 pm

    Hey Khosi,

    “Well the point is, it is pointless to have a conversation with you because you do not use fact nor reason in your arguments. Hence I got bored and left things hanging.”

    Hahahahaha – nice try.

    That’s bullshit.

    You cannot support the silly allegations you made.

    Charlene Smith’s comments are public knolwegde.

    Mbeki goofed up.

    And you double goofed up.

    Admit it and establish some dignity for yourself at least.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, with respect, you seem to be a victim of liberal, almost whitish, solipsism. Have you read Fit to Govern yet? I refuse to engage with you again until you do so.

    Many thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 28, 2011 at 21:31 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    No.

    Is it the same as “Lord of the Flies”?

  • khosi

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 28, 2011 at 21:31 pm

    Maggs does not read.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Khosi, you are wrong. Manifestly, Maggs does read. The problem is that his reading list consists largely of this blog (and others like it), and perhaps a few whitish liberal newspapers and periodicals that only validate his bizarre worldview. One might say that Maggs lives in a echo chamber that resonates with the strident voices of the so-called post-Polokwane consensus. Very sad.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 28, 2011 at 23:24 pm

    Hey Khosi,

    “Maggs does not read.”

    Ignore Dworky. He’s ignorable.

    I am trying desperately to read.

    Please let me read what Charlene Smith had to say.

    Pretty please!

  • khosi

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 29, 2011 at 6:54 am

    Indeed, it seems I was wrong. Thank you for manifestly pointing that out to me. ;-)

    I would then infer that you mean that Maggs is is one of many dangerously ill informed individuals, who are guaranteed a voice by our constitution.

  • Brett Nortje

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    November 29, 2011 at 6:54 am

    Very persuasive!

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 29, 2011 at 8:07 am

    Hey Khosi,

    “I would then infer that you mean that Maggs is is one of many dangerously ill informed individuals, who are guaranteed a voice by our constitution.”

    You inferences are correct (excepting the dangerous part)

    Please inform me so that I can be un-ill-informed.

    p.s. It cannot be that hard to point to where Charlene Smith said that all Black okes are rapists as you claim she did!.

  • khosi

    Maggs,

    There you go again with your lack of deference to fact.

    I never said ‘Charlene Smith said that all Black okes are rapists’

    I said she thinks that black men are sexual predators

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    khosi
    November 29, 2011 at 13:37 pm

    Hey Khosi.

    Ok – I was wrong. I admit it. And I apologise.

    How do you know that Smith thinks that “Black men are sexual predators”?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 28, 2011 at 21:31 pm

    Dworky,

    Since you’re offended by my lack of reading, I’ve decided to write some books.

    Have a look see and let me know if this titles will be interesting.

    – Fit to govern. Maybe, but thanks anyway.
    – Guess who’s not coming to dinner?
    – Total Recall I (starring TM)
    – Total recall II (starring JM).
    – Bet crisis (starring Prof MO)
    – How to lose friends an disillusion people (starring JZ)
    – Long walk to, eish, forget it – we did not join the struggle to be poor.
    – God sent me (starring ??)
    – The truth is out there (starring SCOPA)
    – Life in Manly sucks (starring JR)

    I’ve got a few more – WDYT?

  • ozoneblue

    This constant bickering between khosi/naido about nothing really reminds me of two bald men fighting over a comb.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    Re your haggling with Khosi about Charlene Smith, you are, with respect, being pedantic. You have heard of subliminal racism, I am sure. It is precisely such an unspoken, but deeply felt, set of attitudes and implied beliefs that President Mbeki and Khosi have acutely discerned in Smith. (A not uncommon whitish tendency.)

    P.S. I am both intrigued by your envisaged books. I do think though that you will WRITE better if you have first taken the time to READ widely.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 29, 2011 at 14:50 pm

    Dworky,

    Eish man.

    You chide me for not reading. Then you complain because I want to read (whatever it is that Smith has said).

    No I have not heard of “subliminal racism” – is that like the stuff JR used to say until he got a bit educated? Blacks have lower IQs, Blacks are criminals, Black men are sexual predators (no wait – that was Khosi) – but you know what I mean about our dearly beloved JR’s sayings.

    Or is it like Brett saying “GENOCIDE Watch Level VI Alert”?

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