I am deeply disappointed in the leadership (and legal and political advisers) of Cosatu in the Western Cape. The ANC-led Alliance was handed a public relations coup when Premier Helen Zille appointed ten men to her cabinet and then tried to defend this decision, not by singing the praises of her new cabinet and explaining how the cabinet would deliver services to the poor, but by personally attacking the ANC and Jacob Zuma.
But now Cosatu in the Western Cape is acting in a manner that is both politically unwise and legally uninformed and is in danger of losing the moral high ground in this fight.
First, Cosatu pulled a cheap – but ultimately doomed – stunt by launching an ill-advised equality court application to challenge the composition of the Zille’s cabinet.
Now Die Burger is reporting that Cosatu is threatening to institute a motion of no confidence in Zille and her cabinet via their ANC allies in the Provincial Legislature. If that does not work, it is threatening to use section 109 or 125 of the Constitution to unseat Zille.
Section 141(2) allows the Provincial legislature to pass a vote of no confidence in the Premier and her cabinet which would force the Premier and her cabinet to resign and would require a new Premier and cabinet to be appointed. But this is not a secret vote, so if any DA members voted for this motion they would be fired and new DA members brought in, which would allow Zille to be re-elected as Premier and to appoint the very same cabinet.
Section 109(1) allows the Provincial Legislature to adopt a resolution that would resolve the Legislature and have fresh elections, but only if at least three years has passed since the previous election, so it could not be relied on. Section 109(2) allows the Acting Premier to dissolve the Legislature if a motion of no confidence in the Premier and the cabinet has been adopted, and the Legislature has been unable to elect a new Premier within 30 days.
Section 125 does not seem to be applicable at all as it deals with the executive authority of the Provincial cabinet.
These moves will ultimately all be unsuccessful. The DA has an outright majority in the Western Cape and unless some of its members are on a suicide mission, they will never vote in favour of a motion of no confidence or for the dissolution of the Legislature for fresh elections to be held. This is because such a vote is not done by secret ballot and any DA member who votes for it will summarily be booted out of the party and lose their seats.
The stunt is also politically unwise because it suggests that Cosatu and the ANC is unwilling to accept the democratic will of the people of the Western Cape. Such a move would hand Zille a very big political gift because she would be able to argue – as she will surely do – that Cosatu and the ANC is anti-democratic and is trying to get rid of her because they do not like the verdict of the voters. Suddenly her all male cabinet and her disastrous attack on Zuma would have been forgotten and the Alliance would be painted as undemocratic spoilsports.
If Cosatu and the ANC want to demonstrate their unhappiness with the appointment of a ten man cabinet, while simultaneously displaying a respect for the democratic process, it could institute a vote of no confidence in Zille’s cabinet in terms of section 141(1). If such a vote of no confidence were to be successful (which it would not because the DA controls the Legislature and any DA member voting for such a motion will be kicked out of the DA), Zille would retain her position as Premier but would be forced to reconstitute her cabinet.
But the latter move – even if unsuccessful – would highlight the disastrous decision to appoint an all male cabinet without sending the signal that the ANC is a sore loser who does not respect the will of the people. It would be a symbolic gesture, working within the spirit and letter of the Constitution, to try and make an important political point about the ten man cabinet.
The fact that Cosatu has not raised this as an option invariably creates the impression that it is anti-democratic and hands Zille a propaganda coup of her own. Better to work within the letter and spirit of the Constitution and to keep the focus on the real issue – namely that Zille appointed a ten man cabinet of varying ability to try and placate her political enemies within the DA. This will allow the Alliance to argue that Zille is guilty of the worst kind of cronyism and that her attacks on ANC cronyism is hypocritical and self-serving.
Politics can be a dirty business, but surely we all have a duty to respect the will of the electorate and not to send signals that could be interpreted as anti-democratic? Cosatu can do better but, like Zille, they seemed to have been influenced by personal animosity instead of sound legal and political tactics.
The electorate deserves better from all of them.
And everyone keeps calling Zille paranoid when she says that the ANC and its partners are going to do everything possible to make the Western Cape ungovernable!!
They did it when she was Mayor and they will continue to do it now that she is Premier.
I think it is despicable that the ANC and its allies persist in undermining our democracy when things are not going their way. They speak about the voice of the people and only seem to hear it when it is “their” people. Perhaps if they shut up for a while and actually did what they are mandated to do, which is run our country, then they would hear that even their own people are shouting out for service delivery.
I somehow think that the average person in this country honestly does not care about the politically correct make-up of a provincial legislature, as long as it will translate into service delivery and good governance.
Let the people govern!!
The ANC has been, and will always be, a “struggle” organisation. The way they galvanized to win this past elections outright is testament to that. The use of military minded tactics and strategy are fundamental to the success they have achieved over the years but also shows their failings in that they always need an enemy, will do anything to win and are even willing “to die” for the cause.
I agree with Samantha about Zille’s cabinet. What those with compassion and principles want, is service delivery. We’re tired of the poverty that the ANC has worsened, and who still show in their words and actions that power and its trappings comes before the people. Better we speak about the optimism which is flowing through the Western Cape. Many of us believe that much will improve under her stewardship.
I don’t even bother reading an article trying to trash Zille. They are only preaching to the converted with perverted intent.
question Pierre, Cosatu seems to believe that it is a secret vote but Cosatu being fully aware of the majority of the DA in the WP, i would imagin that section 125(4) could work in Cosatu’s favor to bring this to the NCOP where the ANC has the majority.
To be honest i think everyone needs to give Zille support here. They are under attack by the ANC.
But Zille needs to hit out now, with sueing ANCYL and Cosatu.
But i think this is all just a bluff, to carry on discrediting the DA.
Im sure we are going to see more attacks and insults being flung.
a vote of no confidence for telling the truth
Chris Mcdaniel // May 19, 2009 at 10:47 am
I seem to recall that you were amongst those calling JZ supporters “blind loyalists” (paraphrase). Now, I just wonder how can you be the one saying to us:
“To be honest i think everyone needs to give Zille support here. They are under attack by the ANC”.
How exactly do you expect us to support someone who:
1. is clearly power hungry – how else do you explain her being a candidate for all the top positions, Premier, Mayor, President???
2. clearly does not think much of women (and to an extent, black people) in the DA – how else do you explain her saying she wants “capable people” to be in govt and then going on to pick an all male and predominantly white Executive? The implication must surely be that she could not find any woman who fits that criteria.
3. so obsessed with herself that she thinks she is the only woman capable of taking up top positions.
I watched Morning Live yesterday and I was saddened to see a black woman on television (they called her a Spokesperson) trying to defend the indefensible. First it was that joke of a guy that they put up to contest with former Pres Kgalema last year, now they have this poor girl to try and defend the Madam – where is it all going!!
Mzo, she’s the head of the party. That means she should occupy the most powerful position that the party gains.
Would Zuma have been happy with an MP position? Oh, and of course if she _weren’t_ Premier, we’d have the story about how the Premier was a puppet of a person who wasn’t even in government. Heaven forbid THAT should ever happen.
Can you just imagine the scandal at having someone like a Premier or, worse, a President, receiving his orders from someone that wasn’t a member of the government, and who wasn’t accountable to the people of South Africa?
Oh, wait… never mind.
Frank Shearar // May 19, 2009 at 12:47 pm
“Can you just imagine the scandal at having someone like a Premier or, worse, a President, receiving his orders from someone that wasn’t a member of the government, and who wasn’t accountable to the people of South Africa?”
The prevailing theory is that that’s exactly what we had in the last 6 months or so, with Kgalema getting orders from someone who was then an accused person!!
Mzo:
You supported Jacob Zuma. Enough said.
Garg Unzola // May 19, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Factually incorrect. I did not, and still do not, support JZ or any other person for that matter. However, if you actually mean that I supported the ANC, then I am guilty as charged.
Next time, get your facts straight!!
Mzo // May 19, 2009 at 12:31 pm
I seem to recall that you were amongst those calling JZ supporters “blind loyalists” (paraphrase). Now, I just wonder how can you be the one saying to us:
“To be honest i think everyone needs to give Zille support here. They are under attack by the ANC”.
well how can i put this…..i didnt see anyone calling zuma a nigger or a kaffir but yet im seeing people calling a female a white whore a white silly racist girl.
mmmm lets think logical here i dont like what i see how your party is attacking another party and undermining her because she is female.
by the way i dont support the DA my loyalty belongs to the states…..i just think instead of the ANC concentrating on what they were voted into power for was service delivery instead you have your partners focused on racial and gender slurs on a woman and want to bring the city of capetown to a stand still. doesnt matter if shes white or not i think its disgusting and i dont think its very african infact its just not anything, hell we dont do that in my country, you dont see us shouting what a whore a whte slut Hillary clinton.
I think you and your ANC should be ashamed because you goes are actually going backwards in your racial healing.
She did nothing wrong point out what law she broke?
Mzo // May 19, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Best you return to the gutter that spawned you and your ANC politicians. Like your fellow neo civilized impi’s, there is no substance in your argument, yet you believe it with all of your heart (because, let’s face it, your head isn’t capable of conjuring up credible arguments).
Fact is the DA bitch slapped ANC in the western cape. And guess what, we voted for this power hungry, credible women that does not discriminate against colour, sex etc.
So, Mzo, if you’re worried about the way HZ is governing and you are living in the western cape, I suggest you pack your SL600 Mercedes benz, 4 wives, 18 children and 256 grand children, and go live in kgotsong or the eastern cape or some of the other ANC strongholds, where service delivery is measured by the VIP unit’s response time.
mili // May 19, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I will not engage with people like you lest I also be dragged into using your language.
Chris Mcdaniel // May 19, 2009 at 1:28 pm
It seems to me that we are now talking about two different things. I wasn’t discussing the issue of the ANCYL calling Zille with all those names – quite frankly, I think they were way out of line and I’m embarassed to be associated with such hooligans.
Having said that, I still don’t understand why Helen Zille would deem it necessary to say things like:
“Jacob Zuma, is a self-confessed womanizer with deeply sexist views, who put all his wives at risk by having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive woman”.
Mind you, all she needed to do was defend her decision to appoint the Exec she appointed. It had absolutely bugger all with JZ (a man I do not particularly like by the way but is still my President nonetheless) or his preferred way of living his private life.
My point is simply, it does not appear to me that HZ was attacked because, as you put it, she is a female. I think she was attacked because of her unwarranted attack on the State President. But like I said, the attack by the YL was completely overboard!!
Now Chris, how about you try and convince me that the views I expressed earlier (Mzo // May 19, 2009 at 12:31 pm) about your favourite lady are without any merit. While you are at it, please do better than Mili who simply tells me that there is no substance to my arguments without even a lousy attempt at dealing with my apparent substance-less arguments!!
Mzo // May 19, 2009 at 2:07 pm
No No NO dont try to excuse the ANC……Your alliance partners are also part of the ANC and so is the ANCYL they belong to the ANC on top of that your MK military wing made there racist and gender attacks from the ANC HQ…so please dont try fool me the ANC has nothing to do with this or that its two seperate issues.
“Jacob Zuma, is a self-confessed womanizer with deeply sexist views, who put all his wives at risk by having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive woman”.
I dont understand you…please read her letter she explained fully well why she choose those men…trust me there are alot more words than that quote of hers go read it and tell me what it says>>>>>
there is no substance to your argument.
Did zuma put his wivies in danger by sleeping with an HIV positive female? if no then Zille is wrong.
Your views are upside down and rather twisted. you do know there are 2 females who are jointly running the WP?? yes I know what a shock but its none other than ID leader. If anything you can accuse the two parties for being lesbian.
so what do you want do you want black females in the Parliament or do you want black females in a cabinet? personnaly parliament plays a more important role.
tell me something why hasnt the ANC elected a female president? whats wrong with black females?
P.S your damn straight you should be embarrassed by your branches within the ANC i.e the MK’s your partners and your YL.
I think your attacks on females are disgusting since you guys act as a collective i blame all of u. its disgusting and even sickening ( I actually want to take a shower by the thought of how dirty you guys) how you try to twist it thats shes being sexist.
You guys lost im not talking about the province but you guys lost yourself respect and selfworth. i actually spit at you.
@Mzo
Ill show why your argument lacks substance
I want to take this one for example
Mzo // May 19, 2009 at 12:31 pm
“is clearly power hungry – how else do you explain her being a candidate for all the top positions, Premier, Mayor, President”
Has it ever occuried to you that maybe shes actually good at her job? see this is the funny thing about democracy her party voted her into those positions and so did the people of south africa.
and heres another funny thing its callled capitalism see if one works hard one gets rewarded its part of the human nature to evolve work = reward.
no for you to say that silly statemnt goes to show you dont understand how democracy works.
she didnt get to those postions because she is a female and she is white, cos if thats the case no male would of voted for her and no colored or black person would of voted for her
and no award would of been given to her for being the best mayor in the wolrd because she is white and a female.
point is she works hard you gotta respect that, even tho shes ur enemy you gotta respect that. the same way i respect and everyone else in south africa respects the fact JZ is president of South Africa.
the point is you lack knowledge on what a democracy is and so does the ANC sorry but these past few days have shown it and are very sore lossers.
Mzo // May 19, 2009 at 2:07 pm
‘…I will not engage with people like you lest I also be dragged into using your language…’
I’m sorry Mzo, I’ll never expect of you to change your warmongering provocative language (as has become the norm of the ANC pets, i.e. YL, cosatu SACP etc.) to credible, transparent, proactive conversation.
Mzo, your comments are as accurate and intellectual as anyone would expect from the ANC. Your bias, grass-root, Sowetan impregnated views summarize what the ANC has become.
Mili
Like I said, I refuse to be dragged into the muddy place you are currently operating from. Enough said.
Chris Mcdaniel // May 19, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Thanks for the democracy lecture Chris, much appreciated. Strange thing for me is that I recall you being amongst those who were totally against JZ being elected as President of the Republic – calling all his / ANC supporters blind loyalists and all sorts of names.
Now I ask myself, when are these democratic principles supposed to be respected and when should they simply be chucked out of the window?
I do, however, welcome your apparent change of heart in accepting that JZ has been democratically elected and therefore deserves to be respected. I think Helen Zille might actually learn a thing or two from you. It seems to me that she is finding it very difficult to accept this democratic result – which is a pity!!
Or yes, by the way, if your “working hard” philosophy is to be taken to its logical conclusion, it means there is no one else in the DA who is working hard enought to occupy the aforementioned positions. I wonder what would have happened if the DA had received the same number of seats in the National Parliament – would she have stood as the Presidential Candidate and, if she loses, later stand as the Premier candidate?
Mzo // May 19, 2009 at 3:08 pm
well Mzo im afriad u do have me there, i dont like that he is president but i still gotta respect that, after all south africa isnt my country….and i guess its part of my up bringing to side with people who arent corrupted or tainted, being in law one looks for these qualities and i guess i still have alot to learn how things play out in africa.
The fact is you guys are blind you voted for him with all his good and bad qualities no matter what, even if it compromises the very country itself and at least Law and thats were my issues are….look put it this way if this is how the ANC handles local critizism how do you think Zuma will handle international critizism? if anything thank zille for testing the grounds first with you guys before you have other countries saying what she said.
as for your last paragraph i think jst give her a chance same as we are all doing for Zuma…….with all my anti zuma talk at times i come from a legal side and my legal side says its wrong for him to be there based on the NPA…….however ask me to judge him on charactor i think he could be good, i do think he has abit of funk sole brother in him.
as for my strong words at times just bear with me …. i just like females and dont like seeing them being bashed like Zille has i dont like it i got personnal reasons for it.
You also got to remember i have a theory here about Zille and being white and being in charge of a party, she has to show she is strong and she is not scared and for her because the whites messed up look let the whites also help pay back, but the problem is politics this tends to get twisted
Wow, so many concessions from Chris, I am impressed.
Sometimes I think the DA supporters are probably better off than someone like me. I am an ANC member. The majority in the ANC decided that JZ would be the President of the party and subsequently of the country. I was not in favour of that decision (nor was I in favour of TM being the President of the ANC for another term).
Now come election time, do I vote for another political party simply because I did not like the fact that JZ was the presidential candidate or do I stick with the party I belong to and risk being called a bling, uneducated, quota-obsessed fool? I chose the latter.
Anyone who has issued with that can shoot me!!
I’m an IT student and I visit this blog everyday and I enjoy the heated debates that normally happen here … I dont understand Milli’s posts though. I think your attack on Mzo is unwarranted and unfair. that was just my 2c worth.
I hope you are not a lawyer !!!!
Enjoy your evening everyone
@ Mzo,
Do you know why the DA won the Western Cape? It is because Helen Zille stood as Premier. She had already proven her worth as Mayor of Cape Town (World Mayor of 2008) and had earned the respect of the people through her hard work, integrity, commitment to service delivery and unimpeachable character.
All of this was done while fending off one attack after another from the ANC who were trying to take back Cape Town.
She is no longer Mayor, nor is she President, which means that she currently holds one public service post – that of Premier. Is she power hungry? Maybe. But certainly no more so than the average politician. And her path to this position has not been at the expense of anyone or any institution.
Zuma was prepared to put this entire country in a state of near-anarchy in his quest for the top job. His road to the Presidency is littered with the detritus of our Constitution and Rule of Law. Who would you deem more power hungry?
In terms of her choices for her cabinet, I am impressed by her non-capitulation to the ideology of service delivery before appeasement. In the ranks of the DA, all jobs are acquired through application for posts and the best people are selected. There are no “posts for pals” or “seats for support” – hard work earns good rewards.
It certainly is a refreshing take on politics in this country and one that will hopefully see her choices vindicated as the DA continues its service delivery legacy in the Western Cape.
Samantha // May 19, 2009 at 6:16 pm
I am impressed by how you defend your leader but do so without necessarily calling people names.
I guess I am just too consumed in the politics of re-dress that I cannot seem to understand that the DA in the WC just doesn’t have any woman that can ensure service delivery in the Executive. It similarly escapes me how people like you seem to accept that bcoz HZ appointed an all-men Exec, it follows that there was no “posts for pal”.
For my adopted Province, the WC, I truly hope that the boys choir can deliver.
HZ could have taken up the position of leader of the opposition in Parliment when Tony Leon stepped down, which surely holds more profile than that of Mayor? Instead she let her party get on with doing what they did best in parliment by making sure that the right people were in the right positions (the leader appointed was a woman, incidentally). HZ got on with being a mayor of a city, and did a damn fine job, as evidenced by the voters at election time.
It’s also pretty rich of Coasatu et al to start threatening to make the province ungovernable, and threatening militant action, while all the while telling us that we must back off JZ now because he was elected by the will of the people. Surely they should back off and let the people of the Western Cape judge the DA?
Personally, I think this thing with the cabinet was taken slightly out of proportion – while I’m sure politically it would be preferable to have a more gender representative cabinet, I doubt that some poor family living in a shack is going to care if Zille was the only woman in her whole party – as long as she ensured the DA delivered basic services and upheld their rights. The argument that she could not find comptent women (and therefore believes that women are incompetent in general) is stupid considering (a) she is a woman, and (b) there are numberous women operating in various capacities throughout the DA, from parlimentary level down to grassroots level. The ANC seems to think that numbers are the order of the day, which explains SA’s disastrous record as far as service delivery goes.
Also, James Myburgh notes quite ironically on Politicsweb that the ANC’s leadership structures do not reflect the demographics of the country in terms of white representation. Bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
Finally, if I was a woman / black person / disabled person in the ANC occupying a profile position, I’d feel a bit insulted that I was probably appointed based on what I look like as opposed to my abilities. Although, admittedly, most ANC leadership seems to be absolutely fine with it as long as they can plunder state resources. Still, it’s nice of the ANC to finally admit that they “deploy” cadres based more on their outward appearances than what they can do.
Cosatu, the SACP, and the ANCYL should all bring out their records of service delivery etc, and compare it to HZ’s and the DA’s when they were running CT. Well, Cosatu can’t, because it’s not a political party (seriously – it’s true!), and the SACP and ANCYL would have to produce the ANC’s record because they don’t stand on their own, but it would be nice if it could happen. I’m sure the 330,000 people who died as a result of the ANC sycophantically bowing to Mbeki in order to preserve their status and positions wouldn’t care if there were 12 white males in Zille’s cabinet, as long as they had gotten the ARV’s that the hugely successful (note: irony) black woman health minister refused to give them.
Not that black woman are incompetent – just proving my point that skin colour and gender don’t do bugger all for service delivery unless there are some brain cells under the skin…which, incidentally, are coloured and pinkish brown as far as I know.
@ Mzo,
Thank you for the compliment .
I appreciate your feelings with regard to HZ’s cabinet and I can understand why people would be feeling that she has set back women’s rights and those of people of colour by her choices. Personally, I was just as surprised as the rest of you that she had made those choices.
She must have been aware that she would take incredible flak for her selections, so she obviously feels really strongly about the capabilities of those she has placed in these positions.
The point I am trying to make, however, is that the response to her choice of cabinet is so grossly out of proportion to what is actually at issue in this country. I live in a small town in the Eastern Cape with an unemployment of 85%, high illiteracy levels, chronic alcoholism and where 9 out of 10 babies here are born to minors. A predominantly white Provincial cabinet is so not relevant to the people in this town.
Does anybody really believe that HZ’s choices have any directly damaging effect on the lives of these people? It is purely a platform for debate amongst the educated, middle class and political players of this country.
Believe me, there are more urgent problems in this country. Gender issues are not about political appointees. They are about education, job creation and personal empowerment brought about by the provision of basic needs. When women are having babies in order to receive child grants because that is their only form of income, 10 white men in a Premier’s office is really not relevant. When those 10 white men ensure that communities are receiving water, electricity and housing they become relevant – but only in terms of having fulfilled their mandate to the people who elected them.
Redress is not about window-dressing to send out the right message. Redress is about getting down and dirty with the REAL issue affecting the lives of ordinary people.
I’m sorry, I fail to see the distinction between supporting the ANC and supporting the ANC but not Jacob Zuma. The ANC is clearly behind Jacob Zuma, a man who is guilty on all three accounts, namely:
1. He is clearly power hungry. Voting ANC gives him the mandate of the masses he needs to legitimise that power. You can’t support the ANC and not indirectly support Jacob Zuma and COSATU, unless your mouth does not know what your X is doing. You can’t vote for a party whose leader you do not support and act surprised when the leader becomes president of the country. You voted for that party after it elected a man you claim not to support as its leader. That’s not very smart.
2. He clearly does not think much of women. Oh, pardon me. He gave his alleged rape victims taxi money and took a shower the morning after bonking his step child. A real gentleman.
3. He is clearly so obsessed with himself that compromising the NPA or our entire judicial and systems are small fry compared to getting JZ into power.
He achieved all of the above thanks to the small-minded ANC folk who like to convince themselves that there’s a difference between voting for a party and supporting the party’s leader.
Now, the ANCYL show that they know so little of the democracy that the ANC claims to have brought to South Africa that they refuse to accept the outcome of a democratic election which gave the Western Cape to Helen Zille. You don’t see the DA youth running around trying to render Gauteng or KZN ungovernable, do you?
That should be judicial and executive branches of government. Clearly, both of those are severely compromised in South Africa and old Jay Z has favours to return now that he is the big cheese.
Mzo – that “poor girl defending the Madam” you saw on Morning Live was Lindiwe Mazibuko, the DA’s Shadow Deputy Minister of Communications in Parliament. In the same programme, Tony Ehrenreich said that COSATU would not make the Western Cape ungovernable.
For the record: premiers do not have the prerogative to appoint people outside provincial legislatures to the executive. Only the president of the country can do that.
Section 42(1) of the current Western Cape constitution reads that “the provincial cabinet consists of the premier, as head of the provincial cabinet, and no fewer than 5 and no more than 10 provincial ministers appointed by the premier from among members of the provincial parliament”. So Zille could not possibly have appointed an outsider to the cabinet.
What is COSATU? It’s a labour union! I’ve had a look at their constitution and I cannot find any mandate, instruction or rule that clearly gives them a lead-in to take this action as reported by the newspapers. It could be argued that some rules imply this, but how? I doubt any ladies in the DA are COSATU members. And if there is no clear aim from their constitution, why then take this action? I am almost positive it came from that employment agency called the ANC. It is the ANC who should be barking up that forest not COSATU. But in order to save ‘collective face’ they send in ‘lightweight’ Vavi et al! I remember Acoms razor here: it is simply that the ANC are sore losers.
If I was a lawyer or legal expert, I would offer my services to both cosatu and the A and C pro bono. They have a knack of treading on thin ice as far as the Constitution is concerned.
In a strict legal sense, could a call by Cosatu’ to make the Western Cape ungovernable be deemed an act of treason?
Prof, having seen a number of arguments here, which are mostly along racial lines, one must admit that we are still decades from a non-racial society-see Chris McDaniel style of arguing for reference, almost a “Your JZ, Ons HZ” type of thing. It is for the similar reason that I WILL ALWAYS be on your case Prof as an intelectual to contribute to this country by posting articles which cant be “percieved” to be racist – perceptions matters in politics right? Forgive me for saying this guys, but it would appear that there aint even a single one white person who is not in the Alliance(ANC,SACP,COSATU) and who is not racist – and to me, this is serious and deeply offensive! I somehow understand the anger that this subleminal racism cause MKMVA, YCL, ANCYL and all progressive forces. I am not saying this to offend whites on this blog, I just want all of us to outgrow this deeply embedded ” julle mense, ons mense” mentality. We can deny it all we want, but deep down we know ourselves mense!
On a lighter note Prof, Why do most of your tv interviews take place in an office, with old text books badly packed on the shelves behind you my mat? Do these Etv people even inform you before they come my friend OR do they catch you off guard while still preparing the June exams paper Or izit just your style my mat?
A small correction: The provisions of section 109 and 141 are mirrored in the Western Cape Constitution in sections 18 and 51. Nothing is said in this Constitution about a secret ballot when a motion of no confidence is introduced – although it mentions a secret ballot for election of Premier – so Cosatu is wrong about this.
@ Spuy,
I hate to break it to you, but racism is deeply entrenched in every element of our society including your so-called “progressive” forces. The ANCYL are perhaps the most racist of any of the groups who have contributed to the current discourse raging through this country.
Racism is also a very neat argument for anything with which anyone disagrees. Here in the Eastern Cape, there is a large-scale perception by the Coloured people that they are continually marginalised by the ANC at every level from service delivery to job-creation to education. And the ANC are “perceived” to be the most racist of the organisations, as they continue their programme of “redress”, which appears to be aimed only at Black people.
Our current political structures are still very much an “us and them” environment, despite all parties attempting to paint themselves as multi-racial and fully representative. These things are not going to change.
However, it is up to each one of us to determine the way in which are going to construe every argument. It is our choice to make it about race or to make it about the real issues. To make it about race is to undermine the basis of the discourse and turn it into something personal and therefore (in)defensible.
Dave A // May 19, 2009 at 10:04 pm
thats a good question I would say yes as Cosatu would be viewed as a traitor to the peoples will in the Cape Province. The poeple of Wp have spoken they kicked out the ANC, to now go in to render capetown ungovernable is an act of treason against the people of south africa thats just my view. However Cosatu’s words and if action would clearly amount to civil disobedience.
Dave A // May 19, 2009 at 10:04 pm
An “act of stupidity” yes, but, an “act of treason”? I doubt it. We did not see any treason trials erupting from similar threats by youths unnder apartheid. However, then the police acted pro-actively to see to ioit that acts of protest did not have the effect that the state became ‘ungovernable’, perhaps ‘unpleasant to govern’, but never ‘ungovernable’. I think Cosatu might be in for a nasty surprise, especiallly when people decide not tgo participate in their contemplated ‘unlawful’ strike actions because, if they do, they mighjt lose a day or two’s wages – soemmthing nobody wants to do in these times.
Personally, I don’t think COSATU can do better. I think they are the little engine that couldn’t.
Mouse, Dave et al
As correctly pointed out by Clara, COSATU in the Western Cape said they will NOT make the WC ungovernable because that’s not in anyone’s interest. Tony said so on national television.
If we are to have the kind of discourse that we all need (see – Samantha // May 19, 2009 at 8:00 pm) then we need to desist from misrepresenting the facts.
By the way, generally I agree with Smantha’s points in the post referred to above. However, I just think that if we really need to get to a point where all South Africans can feel that they really belong, we need to always try to be as inclusive as possible. I think it’s important not to make the mistake of thinking that “redress” / AA or whatever you wanna call it, equates to less quality or non-delivery of services. I truly believe that you can achieve both objectives at the same time and avoid creating an impression (real or otherwise) that you are preferring one race over the other.
Whether we like it or not, for the foreseeable future, things in SA will always be viewed along racial lines and it is our duty to ensure that we reduce those perceptions whenever there is an opportunity to do so.
Christine Qunta’s take on the issue:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20090520061456385C634902
Mzo, you’re getting there, but how will you be able to enforce “redress” / AA or whatever you wanna call it” while you also “avoid creating an impression (real or otherwise) that you are preferring one race over the other”?
Friend // May 20, 2009 at 11:19 am
You can start by appointing a Cabinet with women, black and white people…surely you are not going to tell me that there aren’t women / black people who are COMPETENT enought to hold those positions. By failing to do so, you create the impression (real or otherwise) that you in fact believe that there are no women / black people (as the case may be) who can hold positions in Cabinet.
Spuy et al, prejudice, be it in the form of racism, sexism, homophobia or xenophobia is deeply embedded in our society. Fifteen years of democracy is not going to change that. A first step is to admit this and not to be too defensive because that leads to denial. But I think one of the saddest effects of this is that those who are the victims often internalise some of the prejudice and this is not healthy. Some homosexuals try and be “straight acting”, for example, or get all defensive when criticised – even for legitimate reasons. Mbeki’s government seemed to have had a fair bit of this – not enough Biko and too much hatred – and that gives the power back to the oppressor or the one harbouring the prejudice and take them as starting point.
On my Blog I try – imperfectly as it will always be – to walk the tightrope of recognising the deeply entrenched racism, sexism and homophobia out there and trying not inadvertently to encourage or condone it on the one hand, while at the same time not patronising oppressed people by holding them to a lower ethical standard than I would myself. But talking about these things, I believe, is always better than pretending it does not exist because that is just an invitation for the festering of prejudice.
On a lighter note, Spuy, I do get notice for when the reporters come to my office but if I had to tidy my office every time this happened, I would be kept rather busy because my office is a mess. And I do not seem to have space for all the books that tend to spill over on the floor.
[A late aside]
mili // May 19, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Mzo, “Best you return to the gutter that spawned you and your ANC politicians.”
mili // May 19, 2009 at 2:52 pm
“I’m sorry Mzo, I’ll never expect of you to change your warmongering provocative language … to credible, transparent, proactive conversation … Your bias, grass-root, Sowetan impregnated views summarize what the ANC has become.”
Read your two posts again, mili, and then decide whose language is provocative and biased. Your ad hominem attacks on Mzo are petulant, embarrassing and are entirely without substance.
I disagree with some of Mzo’s views but I’m happy to read them, especially as he argues clearly, politely and dispassionately. Your attack on him – couched in extremely offensive language – doesn’t belong in this forum.
Mzo, congrats on not deigning to engage with mili.
Mzo // May 20, 2009 at 11:42 am
you running a business what counts windo dressing or delievery?
Lets flip and reverse this cos Mzo im still lost on what moral high ground the ANC is trying to come from
out of 8 ANC run provinces, only TWO white females have been appointed by ANC Premiers.
i dont get it why you guys so bothered about who dishes out service delievery and not bothered by who recieves service delievery?
you know if this is going to be a tit for tat whats worse? all male cabinet or an all criminal cabinet?
Spuy
Why can non-racist whites be found only in the Alliance? Do they have a monopoly on this rare breed? That’s clearly nonsensical. I don’t know what race you are and fail to see how it matters in this debate – I guess from your comments that you are probably a member of the Alliance. I think your sweeping generalisations say more about your own prejudices than the white bloggers here you are condemning.
Sidebar:
Christine Qunta writes “…what would one say about Hillary Clinton, and before her, Madeleine Albright? …”
Did Qunta deliberately ignore Ms Condoleezza Rice? It is so very strange because Rice comes before Clinton. Is it because Ms Rice is a Republican or maybe because Rice is Black that in Qunta’s mind she does not exist?
We all have our own prejudices, don’t we?
“Nothing is said in this Constitution about a secret ballot when a motion of no confidence is introduced …”
Prof, does this automatically mean that there cannot be a secret ballot? Tony Ehrenreich says that “we will table a vote of no confidence in the premier in terms of section 51(2) of the provincial constitution at the Provincial Legislature. This will lead to a secret ballot …” Could he insist on the ballot being secret?
And say now he would be successful with his vote of no confidence, no matter how unlikely this may be, and the premier and the other members of the Executive Council have to resign: would Helen Zille even be in a position where she could kick out those DA’s who voted against her? Sorry if that’s a dumb question.
I find nothing wrong in Zille’s provincial cabinet provided that all of the candidates were chosen based on merit. Being pale and male is not a crime. Pale males are South African too, even if they suffer from being straight or even worse – not being disabled.
She’s only had that cabinet for a few weeks and the ANC is already soiling itself. I say give her a chance – let’s wait until service delivery doesn’t pick up and then worry about votes of no confidence and the make-up of the provincial cabinet.
The actual constituency of the cabinet is not as important as the process followed. The way I understand it is that COSATU et al would have to be able to show that there were female or black candidates on the candidate list in the first place, and secondly that the pale males were favoured over those candidates.
Time and again, we are told that BEE and AA only apply when two candidates of equal merit are in line for a post. This means that if those pale males were more qualified or had more clout on their CVs, they would be the natural choice – even if there were some other demographic holy grail on the candidate list.
What I do find worrying is that an anti-Zille facebook group disappeared like mist before the sun.
Thabo Mbeki once gave me the impression that he thought South Africa’s “diversity” was a positive thing.
People say that the worst racism can be found in the Western Cape. I say that’s because we have the most diversity. Black, white, coloured, gays, heteros … foreigners … we have everything here. Different cultures, different political views, different languages, very rich and very poor people. Then take a province like Limpopo, with a predominance of poor black people, most of whom vote ANC. Not too much fireworks there. So, is diversity bad, and homogeneity good?
Clara, diversity is only good when it conforms with the ANC’s opinion on love, life, and everything else. Just like anything in this country. Otherwise being different means you are a racist, colonialist, imperialist, neo-liberal, or, more recently, it could also mean you’re sleeping around (which the ANCYL defined, with pure eloquence, as meaning sleeping around).
Clara, there is no requirement for a secret ballot. I suppose anyone can request the (DA) speaker for a secret ballot but the speaker will not allow it. If anyone in DA votes for such a motion the DA will kick them out of the party and they will then automatically lose their seats.
Dave A: Certainly, if I was sitting, acts to ‘incite’ treason. And certainly, questions about hate and libel come into this. But our law has no balls, isn’t that obvious. Mpshe certainly doesn’t. Pity we lost Pikoli.
Mili – there are some racist undertones in your telling Mzo and his nation sized family to bugger off back to the Eastern Cape with their Mercedes. Not a view I would want to have associated with all white Capetonions. Cape Town is a really cool place with really cool people and can be enjoyed by all who are drawn there.
Mzo – I thus support your concerns about Mili’s operating zone, and respect your ability not to lash out as many of us do instinctively when we feel our “tribe/race” is being insulted. And black South Africans have earned the right to vent more spleen than most.
What Helen said was nasty and uneccesary, and perhaps, regarding Zuma being a self-confessed womanizer, even incorrect. Did he actually confess to being a “womanizer”? Or is HZ saying that having any sex outside of marriage makes you a womanizer? – an “adulterer” adulterer would be more technically correct?
(by the way – is the sin of adultery diluted somewhat by having more than one wife? ie because each wife already has to share her husband? Is it a sin at all to Zulus? I don’t think many non-blacks have a clue about Zulu culture and views on gender relations. I enjoyed it when Zuma explained how he could not be stressed because there was no Zulu word for stress…).
However she was correct about the HIV part, and in politics that sort of baggage is normally fair game – remember she was already under a rather concerted attack about her all-male cabinet with the female boss.
On the other hand, what the ANCYL and others have said about Zille (sleeping with her cabinet etc) is simply gratuitious bullshit. And the racist little white girl madam bantustan thing is entirely beyond the pale. HZ apparently has impeccable struggle credentials, speaks Xhosa (not sure how well) and is most likely not racist at all. She is no longer a girl. And I would hope she is a domestic employer employing a domestic worker or two.
Also what Sarah Palin said.
….nite guys!…mara wag: eintlik where s Ozoneblue? …..mmmhh Chris, you and Prof didnt ‘purge’ him from this blog now, did you?….Mazda 3 & three goats for anyone who ll find me that comrade of mine-no matter what noise-that token of gratitude will be yours!
If Ozone is not found I ll make this blog ungovernable, or rather, unpostable hey!!!
The reason the ANC is worried by the WC Cabinet is because they will make the other provinces look bad. There were many mojors in this world, on this globe, when HZ were nominated the best of all and it’s easy to underestimate this feat when you are ignorant and arrogant. The fact is this woman reached this milestone in the mids of very difficult cicumstances created by her rivals, who would inevitably be seen by her as the enemy as they have done everything in their capability to play dirty on their way to the finish line. They cheated, lied and caused uneccessary stress for her to make life difficult indeed. But she looked the other way, not allowing the outside interferance determine her and her party’s motivation to reach their unltimate goal, by reaching their short term goals first.
It makes my heart warm that their are woman like this, whe should be an inspiratioin to woman in general and anyone who seeks a roal model in this life. I would not mind sharing her as my role model with the likes of Julius Malema, who clearly has a different role model that is evidenced in his speaches and other leadership positions that god knows who supports.
Anyway to finaly make it past all these herdals that someone, you know you had to treat nice, all the time during which they have done so and have the balls to look behind you and say bring it on and give them a little something to think about that you know is true is to me a sign of true character that is noteworthy no matter who you think you are.
Spuy // May 20, 2009 at 11:23 pm
lol spuy no but i must admit i do miss the little tiger maybe he is brushing up on his legal skills, but its ok we got you so dont stress. But i also must admit ive got a deeper understanding of Mzo.
Spuy // May 20, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Spuy my mate, didn’t you read that all the O3 is being blown out of the skies by gasses emanating from guys like you?
Spuy – that was a satirical joke, OK?!
This story just in from the Cape Argus on the Erasmus commission, which is confirmation of the fact that the ANC spent R 5million of taxpayers money in a bid to discredit Zille when she was Mayor of Cape Town. To date, aside from Rasool being fired, not one other ANC official has been castigated. I think it is appalling that they can allow the abuse of taxpayer’s money to this extent and there is no accountability anywhere.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=79&art_id=vn20090521123801280C151426
Once again, I reiterate that Zille’s perceived paranoia is founded in reality.
And the fun just never stops for Zille.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3086&art_id=vn20090520121200899C435756
What is amazing is how the ANC are going to focus their attention on “issues” raised in their election manifesto to “get” at HZ.
Why can’t they focus on these issues as a means of actually providing service and assisting their people? If they had done that in the first place, they might not have lost the Western Cape.
They appear to be as blinkered as the previous regime in their “Rooi Gevaar” mindset. It has just been replaced with a “Zille Gevaar”. But I suppose that where you have a revolutionary party, it’s far easy to revolt than to actually settle down to the mundane job of fulfilling your mandate and governing.
Thank you, Prof, for clarifying the “secret ballot” conundrum.
There’s another matter that worries me a little. You said “… Zille appointed a ten-man cabinet of varying ability to try and placate her political enemies within the DA. This will allow the Alliance to argue that Zille is guilty of the worst kind of cronyism and that her attacks on ANC cronyism is hypocritical and self-serving”. Can you substantiate this, to my mind, rather serious allegation?
Samantha // May 21, 2009 at 2:53 pm
lol i totaly agree, i was actually thinking about this last night.
The thing is the ANC is on full war with the DA they have the arrogance to say they will put pressure on Zille to make sure she delievers on service but yet the ANC couldnt even do that for the Cape.
The stragedy is to put Zille on defence.
If i was Zille:
1) i would set a group to target the ANC to catch them out on miss managment of funds like reported in the news the Housing initiative gave money to the ANC to spend on campaigning instead of being used for housing.
2) I would have her spokeman to do all the talking on her behalf.
3) I would have Zille sue the ANCYL and partners for every defamation that is uttered, pop that cash into trust becuase by the time the next elections pops up she would have saved that money to match R200million for campaigning. Hit the ANC where it hurts there personnal bank accounts
4) Make sure her boyz are constantly in the news for service delievery in there required field.
5) Make sure Zille is seen chatting to the poor and personnaly delievering on her promises and making big noises about it.
6) focus her legal team to challenge the NPA dropping charges and getting McCarthy and Nqcuka to tesitfy.
just my thoughts
@ Chris McDaniel,
Good thinking!! Good strategy. Hell, if Zuma can have R 70 million rand in pending damages cases, why can’t HZ. The DA certainly doesn’t get the funding that the ANC gets for election campaigns.
Some people clearly missed the debate about Medness descending on the Western Cape.
Here’s just a little of that.
1. Clara // May 13, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Helen explained (this morning, on radio) that she would have liked to have some women in her cabinet, but it so happened that the top-drawer candidates she had in mind had all put their names down for the DA’s shadow cabinet in Parliament.
And another post:
Extract of Letter to the Editor of the Argus. From Helen Zille:
1. The ANC, in all its 90 years of existence, has never elected (or deployed)a woman as its leader. The DA has done so within the first ten years of its existence. In fact, until recently, both the DA’s national leader and Parliamentary leader were women.
The ANC’s alliance partners, the SACP and COSATU, are also led by men. And, more significantly, the ANC’s leader, Jacob Zuma, is a self-confessed womanizer with deeply sexist views, who put all his wives at risk by having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive woman. Even after this the ANC women’s league strongly endorsed his Presidential campaign. Their professions of support for women’s rights ring hollow indeed against this background.
While some of the ANC’s senior women achieved their positions on merit, others are well known “quota appointments”. The ANC can therefore pretend to be serious about women’s rights, while actually patronizing women who want to be recognized for their ability.
Jacob Zuma is able to make all his quota and politically expedient appointments because he has extended his Cabinet (including deputy Ministers) to a ludicrous 62 members — at taxpayers’ expense.
In contrast, Provinces are confined by law to 10 MECs drawn from the list elected to the provincial Parliament.
Zuma’s expanded cabinet will cost an extra R19 million in salaries alone, before adding the cost of all the staff and perks to which they are entitled. But the real power remains firmly in the hands of the ‘big men’.
This is blatant hypocrisy. When women are appointed to meet a quota, it is an insult to every woman who has achieved her position through adding value, such as women in the DA.
By paying lip-service to the empowerment of women, the ANC is also promoting the mindset that only women can care about the issues affecting women, or do something about them. The same applies to the ANC’s warped logic regarding race, which says that only black people can care about black people, that only whites can care about whites and so on. This is racist nationalist thinking which goes against the letter and spirit of our constitution. It is also something that every intelligent South African should reject.
In the DA we believe that human beings can care for each other regardless of race or gender. The real test of democratic equality is how well services are delivered to everyone, on an equatible basis, not the colour or gender of the people delivering them.
Helen Zille
Premier of the Western Cape
The letter above is clearly a response to a personal attack. I see no good reason why Zille should not make mention of yet another example of the hypocracy that is the ANC.
I do not see how COSATU had any credibility in their ridiculous claim. Zille appointed people she felt were fit for the job. If we were to look at representation in terms of percentage in the National cabinet we’d find that it isn’t representative of the demographics. If the ANCYL members had even ONE braincell (combined) they would have waited for the MEC’s of the WC to get around to doing their job and comment on how they did their job. If Zille’s hand is forced and she appoints people who are not the best purely to appease the dimwits who hurl abuse and ahout nonsense, and the new MEC’s do a terrible job then she can blame the ANC. The ANC in turn would claim that the DA has failed to deliver service delivery. If Zille makes no changes and her current team does what they’ve promised then what can the ANC do about that? Nothing once thet’ve shown their worth. The more airtime that is given to this non-issue is where the problem lies.
I generally agree with Prof but I do not at all see how the current ramblings of COSATU benefit the principles of good governance, the Constitution, democracy or the Western Cape. I also note that one cannot truly attack a political leader of cronyism where they appoint people who would support them unless such people do not have the requisite capacity to do their jobs or have shown blind loyalty and disregard for the law.
I further wish to note that Zille had no real intention of being an MP in these elections. She was mayor of CPT and that was not a matter for the elections. Her face, appeared on the National and Provincial ballot papers in KZN too. As she had no intention of being in the National Assembly and she has before appointed another person (woman) as the Parliamentary Leader of the DA I fail to see how this shows anyone she is power hungry. The DA is winning support through performance, best done in tiers. The ANC has realised this and is really on a massive drive to discredit Zille, pathetic. It would be wonderful if people would stp seeing the world through tainted eyes and pure prejudice to that which is different or that you do not understand. Lastly, could people have critical thoughts for a refreshing change. Shouting racism simply because she’s white is senseless. Let the lady govern as she sees fit.