In a speech delivered in 2008, Supreme Court of Appeal Judge Carole Lewis implicitly questioned the appointment of some black and female judges to the various courts in South Africa since 1994. She argued in a speech that the JSC has become dominated by politicians after the adoption of the final Constitution in 1996 and that “there is a perception now that political fealty is a more assured path to appointment as a judge than ability”, then continues:
I am advised that the work of dealing with the motion rolls in the large courts falls on the shoulders of the few with the experience to manage it – and that the consequences of that are not only unpleasant for those too heavily burdened but detrimental to litigants…. Suffice it to say that the time has come to accept that the judiciary has over 14 years been radically transformed in terms of race, and that it is the duty now of the heads of court to ensure that judicial education is ongoing and that new appointments are made only because of skill and experience and not solely because of race, and especially not political fealty.
She also argued that in order to safeguard the independence of the judiciary “appointments to the bench must be made by having regard primarily to merit – skill and experience. Political loyalty and race must cease to be the criteria for appointment by the JSC” and that “politicians should take lessons in constitutionalism and realize that they are not above the law”. The implicit link between a lack of ”skill” and the race or gender of a judge was (rightly, in my view) condemned at the time.
A remarkable judgment handed down yesterday by the Constitutional Court in Stuttafords Stores (Pty) Ltd and Others v Salt of the Earth Creations (Pty) Ltd and Others suggests that Lewis might have had a point. However, in this case the perceived problems had nothing to do with either race or gender – at least not in the manner in which Lewis used those terms in her speech.
The Appellants (Stuttafords and Others) in this case approached the Constitutional Court to challenge the decision by (now retired) judge Dion Basson to recuse himself from any matter dealing with the parties involved after he handed down judgment in favour of the Salt. The recusal application was based on the contention that the main judgment by Basson “exhibited little or no sign of any original or independent application and reasoning, that it essentially copied the written heads of argument of Salt’s counsel and, consequently, created a perception of bias in favour of Salt”.
For various reasons that are not relevant here, the Constitutional Court decided that it was not in the interest of justice to hear the appeal. It carefully pointed out that it was not making any finding on whether there would be grounds to ask for the recusal of a judge where he or she basically copied the written heads of argument of one of the parties and presented it as his or her judgment. The Court nevertheless felt that it was necessary to comment on the remarkable case and implicitly – in its ever polite and indirect way – rebuked the now retired judge for his conduct.
As the Constitutional Court noted, the original judgment was remarkable for various reasons. The judgment by Basson J consists of approximately 1890 lines of typing of which, apart from a summary of the relief sought and the terms of the order, only approximately 32 lines are the judge’s original writing.
The rest consists of words taken exactly from Salt’s counsel’s heads of argument, sometimes even without taking out phrases like “it is submitted” and emotive comments on The Gap and Stuttaford’s contentions and actions. There is no direct independent reference in the main judgment to The Gap and Stuttaford’s heads of argument, except for references carried over from Salt’s heads of argument.
If this had not been a judgment by a court of law but an academic article or a newspaper column someone might have suggested – rather less kindly than the Constitutional Court – that this was a case of plagiarism. The Constitutional Court was more circumspect, but did comment on this remarkable turn of events (to say the least) in the following manner:
While some reliance on and invocation of counsel’s heads of argument may not be improper, it would have been better if the judgment had been in the judge’s own word.
“The true test of a correct decision is when one is able to formulate convincing reasons (and reasons which convince oneself) justifying it. And there is no better discipline for a judge than writing (or giving orally) such reasons. It is only when one does so that it becomes clear whether all the necessary links in a chain of reasoning are present; whether inferences drawn . . . are properly drawn; whether the relevant principles of law are what you thought them to be; whether or not counsel’s argument is as well founded as it appeared to be at the hearing (or the converse); and so on.
“. . . The very act of having to summarize in one’s own words what a witness has said, or what is stated in an affidavit or what a document says or provides, is in itself a very good discipline and is conducive to a better and more accurate understanding of the case.”These remarks were made by a former Chief Justice, Corbett CJ, in an address at the first orientation course for new judges under the new constitutional dispensation.”
These remarks were made by a former Chief Justice, Corbett CJ, in an address at the first orientation course for new judges under the new constitutional dispensation. We have deliberately refrained from dealing with case law on the issue whether the extensive use of counsel’s heads could lead to a perception of bias, because it is not a question we need to decide here. Suffice to state, however, that if these wise words are heeded by judges the necessity of deciding the issue in the future should not arise.
To my knowledge this is the first time the Constitutional Court comments in such an negative manner on a judgment handed down by a High Court judge. This suggests that the case in issue is an exception and that the vast majority of judges do indeed write their judgements in their own words (even if many of them also do borrow from the written heads of argument of one or the other side).
I hesitate to note that judge Basson is white, but sadly we live in South Africa where race permeates every aspect of our lives and this fact will be noted by many – even if some people will not comment on it it public. I note the race of the judge not because I believe it is important or that it demonstrates that all white judges are somehow unworthy of serving on the bench, but because I wonder what would have happened if the judge in question was black? How would the majority of white members of the legal profession have responded (at least in private – around braaivleis fires and in tea rooms in law firms and drinks events of colleagues at the Bar)? Would they have seen this as confirmation of the alleged “problems” with transformation highlighted by Lewis JA?
I venture to suggests that quite a few (but thank goodness far from all) lawyers would have seen the case in those terms, as it would have confirmed their worst suspicions about the alleged inferiority and unsuitability of black appointees to the bench, suspicions that are at least some times based not on facts but on racial prejudice.
Or would they – as most of them will surely now correctly do – have seen this as an isolated case related to a specific judge whose race had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that for some bizarre reason or another (or because of personal reasons that we do not know about) he had decided to cut and paste the heads of arguments of one of the parties and serve it up as his own judgment?
Just wondering.
A pity you tried to racialise what is otherwise an interesting article, Pierre. It in fact reinforces Carole Lewis’s arguments. I don’t know Basson’s employment history, but it is quite possible that he was also a politically influenced appointment made during the time of Vorster or Botha. His tenure would then have been as a result of political patronage, not merit based, which means that the public would have possibly received a below par standard of judicial service from him as a result. This case you refer to strongly suggests that this is indeed so.
Judge Lewis wasn’t criticizing appointments based on race; she was criticizing them for not being made on merit. She would have included Basson if his appointment was based on anything other than being appropriately suited for the position. You appear to have conveniently made the race inference to support your argument and to take a swipe at Lewis. Basson’s whiteness is therefore irrelevant to this debate.
As an aside, I am surprised at the constitutional court’s coyness in dealing with this appeal, considering their enthusiasm in addressing other cases from which they should have steered well clear.
Who was Salt’s counsel? He/she must have been satisfied – and surely earned his/her fee!
In “The anatomy lesson” in Counsel [ the journal of the Bar of England and Wales] of Feb 2002 at p18, Mr Justice James Hunt said of “skeletons” [the term there used to refer to heads of argument, that:
“The most flattering judgments incorporate half the skeleton.”
So its your aim to so much convince the judge that he simply uses your heads.
@ PdV
“How would the majority of white members of the legal profession have responded . . . [at] drinks events of colleagues at the Bar)?”
Pierre is right.
That is why, as he has pointed out in the past, it is mostly young “coconuts” advocates who get anything other than state attorney briefs.
Many thanks.
Race and the judiciary
Although I no longer litigate in the HC I did so extensively, at one stage spending on average 4 days a week in urgent court for about 2 years. Stayed pretty trim!
Application and urgent work really show you the quality of a judge and also expose when they are under too much pressure.
Young black judges often appeared to feel under a perception, a real one at that, that they were too young and not up to it. They face advocates many years their senior and sometimes (not always) more capable. That can lead to defensiveness and arrogance which is unfortunate.
Sometimes, as happened one infamous week in urgent court, it can lead to paralysis. A certain judge dismissed every single urgent application on the basis of no urgency – crazy stuff considering some of the subject matter which was definitely urgent.
But to extend this to being able to judge a judge by their colour is actually impossible.
I would say that my most questionable instances of judicial ability were under white judges! Perhaps the black judges, feeling under pressure, are working harder on individual cases, thus taking more time?
Perhaps the white judges are being swamped by too much work and resort what Basson did just to get a file off the desk?
I don’t have a clue.
But I do know the workloads are intolerable on these judges because of the effects of racial profiling in limiting the volume of judges. If we go back to merit, more whites will sit on the bench but at least the bench will be bigger and more able to handle the case load – thus minimising the Basson-type incident.
I also saw that, as normal, judges feel more comfortable in areas in which they practiced prior to the bench. On average, black judges were fantastic in property, labour and persons but needed help commercially.
In fact my most brutal eviction judgements were handed down by black females, and the most limp-wristed by white males!
I find that it is actually just a matter of personality.
None of the judges I dealt with is intellectually limited, they are all bright with their own strengths and weaknesses, attitudes, levels of arrogance and inability to admit wrong (had an old black male refuse to overturn his own order made earlier in the day despite giving a judgement in money in application proceedings and without proof of service – pure arrogance caused mayhem for what should have been a simple change to the order whilst he was still functus).
Complex problem but I think cognisance of Lewis’ points must be taken.
The bench is sufficiently racially diverse. The amount of judges appointed under Apartheid is now insignificant and can no longer be an issue.
Employ the best no matter their colour or creed and employ enough of them!!
Yes, this really shows up the fallacy in Lewis JA’s thinking. (It is also a lesson for Cachalia JA, who likewise made some sinister suggestions about racially-oriented appointments to the bench.)
What these learned Judges of Appeal do not grasp is that so-called “merit,” like race itself, is nothing more than a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT!
Thanks.
I have to agree with Graham: “A pity you tried to racialise what is otherwise an interesting article”
Prof, this race obsession is ridiculous! There are bad black judges, as much as there are bad white judges. Incompetence and laziness is not racist, it applies across all races.
Huh! I know one woman I want off the bench!
And, no, I do not think a male judge would have been as ‘understanding’ of the perp.
Soft judges make hardened criminals!
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Killer-dad-walks-free-20100831
George and Graham
“Judge Lewis wasn’t criticizing appointments based on race; she was criticizing them for not being made on merit. She would have included Basson if his appointment was based on anything other than being appropriately suited for the position. You appear to have conveniently made the race inference to support your argument and to take a swipe at Lewis. Basson’s whiteness is therefore irrelevant to this debate.”
I would have agreed with you but Lewis JA unfortunately relates her concerns to what has happened since 1994.
Unless you want to defend the indefensible, the clear point being made is that there has been some judges (black or white – even though we all know that they were mostly black) that have been appointed not necessarily based on their skill. Now, I don’t really know much about Basson J, but if he is now retired, I think it’s fair to assume that s/he was not appointed during the period Lewis JA was referring to. Therefore, his/her competence (or lack thereof) could not have been what Lewis JA had in mind.
Brett Nortje says:
September 3, 2010 at 11:40 am
Hey Brett,
Thanks for that link.
“She said Mashele was not the kind of individual who should be removed from society”.
Eish!
Then there was the judge or judges who said that the monster father who raped his own child was not too bad like those who rape other people’s children.
But as Dworky always points out, these are judges who have more than 15 years commercial airline flying time behind them.
@ Brett
C’mon Brett, the poor man’s life has been destroyed already.
I think a judge is likely to use counsel’s heads of arguments as his judgement when he/she is adjudicating over a matter concerning an area of law with which they are not familiar. See for an axample the case of Telcom SA v The Competition Commission (Case No. 11239/04) in which R D Claassen J stated “at the outset I want to make it clear that I will make liberal use of counsels’ heads of arguments”. Relying heavily on Telkom’s council’s submissions he went on to deliver a very schocking judgement which was over turned on appeal. At the end of the day the judge fialed to show idependent reasoning and he failed to deal with the important issue (which was whether or not the Commission had jurisdiction over Telkom). Despite all this the judgement did not cause any shock in the legal fraternity and like you I asked myself, if Claassen was black would the legal fraternity have reacted the same?
Sorry for the detour but this is a classic.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article639462.ece/Pothole-takes-out-half-of-MTN-cycling-team
While I understand the need for a discussion such as this one, I feel that the state of our courts is of more concern than what the colour of a judge is who makes a poor decision.
A relative of mine works as an attorney practicing family law. She goes to Makro to buy cartons of cigarettes (Craven A menthol) and chocolate bars that have to be used to bribe court officials to find her documents.
There are no filing cabinets and the documents are merely stacked in piles on the floor. Recently a letter was written to one of the newspapers in which it was claimed that the administration was so bad in the Central Divorce Court that there are women who are becoming destitute while waiting for the divorces to be finalised.
Surely this should be of more concern to us than debating the virtues of white and black judges (again!!).
@ Gwebecimele,
After reading only the headline, I was shocked at your amusement. However, having read the whole article, I have to admit that it is very funny. I’m sorry for the injuries etc. but it really is a classic!!!
It’s obvious that the judge gave the work to his black assistant.
Thank You.
Samantha says:
September 3, 2010 at 13:02 pm
Hey Sam,
“Recently a letter was written to one of the newspapers in which it was claimed that the administration was so bad in the Central Divorce Court that there are women who are becoming destitute while waiting for the divorces to be finalised.”
It sounds like something organisations like POWA should be engaging with.
As for the Ministry of Women and lots of other matters – eish!
Brett
When you see magistrates or judges making callous remarks in a horrific case, the right questions are not asked.
Everyone gets full of righteous indignation and rightly so.
But how many of these cases has the presiding officer been through? Some prosecutors have complained that they suffer from a type of traumatic stress, whereby they become callous as a result of the sheer volume of horric crimes they are faced with daily, “Oh its just another child rape, pass me a cigarette”.
The right question is: What can we do to protect the actors in the judicial service from the trauma of their case content?
Gwebe
That’s a classic
LOL!
I just received this lovely email and thought it might brighten everyone’s Friday afternoon!!!
Part of rebuilding New Orleans caused residents often to be challenged with the task of tracing home titles back potentially hundreds of years.With a community rich with history stretching back over two centuries, houses have been passed along through generations of family, sometimes making it quite difficult to establish ownership. Here’s a great letter an attorney wrote to the FHA on behalf of a client:
You have to love this lawyer……..
A New Orleans lawyer sought an FHA loan for a client. He was told the loan would be granted if he could prove satisfactory title to a parcel of property being offered as collateral. The title to the property dated back to 1803, which took the lawyer three months to track down. After sending the information to the FHA, he received the following reply.
(Actual reply from FHA):
“Upon review of your letter adjoining your client’s loan application, we note that the request is supported by an Abstract of Title. While we compliment the able manner in which you have prepared and presented the application, we must point out that you have only cleared title to the proposed collateral property back to 1803. Before final approval can be accorded, it will be necessary to clear the title back to its origin.”
Annoyed, the lawyer responded as follows:
(Actual response):
“Your letter regarding title in Case No.189156 has been received. I note that you wish to have title extended further than the 206 years covered by the present application. I was unaware that any educated person in this country, particularly those working in the property area, would not know that Louisiana was purchased by the United States from France in 1803, the year of origin identified in our application. For the edification of uninformed FHA bureaucrats, the title to the land prior to U.S. ownership was obtained from France, which had acquired it by Right of Conquest from Spain . The land came into the possession of Spain by Right of Discovery made in the year 1492 by a sea captain named Christopher Columbus, who had been granted the privilege of seeking a new route toIndia by the Spanish monarch, Queen Isabella. The good Queen Isabella, being a pious woman and almost as careful about titles as the FHA, took the precaution of securing the blessing of the Pope before she sold her jewels to finance Columbus ‘s expedition. Now the Pope, as I’m sure you may know, is the emissary of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God, it is commonly accepted, created this world. Therefore, I believe it is safe to presume that God also made that part of the world called Louisiana. God, therefore, would be the owner of origin and His origins date back to before the beginning of time, the world as we know it, and the FHA. I hope you find God’s original claim to be satisfactory. Now, may we have our damn loan?”
The loan was immediately approved.
@ Samantha
Any truth in these rumours!!!!!!
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article638346.ece/Zille-fires-safety-MEC-Max
@ Gwebecimele,
I’m afraid that I’m just as in the dark as you are. I saw the article in the early hours of the morning, but haven’t been able to find anything else on it.
Although I’m part of the DA structure, I live in the Eastern Cape, so we are kept a little out of the loop regarding WC business.
I’m sure more will be said later, but it certainly is interesting that there is nothing more being said about it anywhere!! All very strange, if you ask me.
Gwebecimele says:
September 3, 2010 at 13:33 pm
Hey Gwebs,
I heard that Max is making way for Aunty Pat.
The honeymoon has started!
Samantha says:
September 3, 2010 at 13:32 pm
Classic!!!
Do yourselves a favour and read the following opinion piece on Times Live. It certainly gives one pause for thought.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/iLIVE/article639647.ece/Bees-is-neither-a-racist-nor-murderer–Reader
Samantha says:
September 3, 2010 at 13:05 pm
“@ Gwebecimele,
After reading only the headline, I was shocked at your amusement. However, having read the whole article, I have to admit that it is very funny. I’m sorry for the injuries etc. but it really is a classic!!!”
Yea, as cyclist myself I find it as funny as the recent taxi-train tragedy.
@ Samantha
Whilst we are still waiting for the details/facts to unveil in this story, it is difficult to imagine what happened on that day. The Snr Police should ask the two other cops that were involved in this to explain a certain issues such as
1. Why was this guy not arrested and thrown into jail?
2. Who made purchases with the credit card after arrest?
3. Why was this guy driven home? and others
I suspect these cops will live to regret not following due process.
However the statements from the seniors came too early and can cause unnecessary anger.
The writer of this article is guilty of throwing a catchy heading without substance as if he knew the accused personaly. His, is just a cry for a normal society after suffering from xenophobic attacks.
Unfortunately SA has a long history of bouncers, farmers and other bulky individuals who have beaten black people to death. In many of these instances it is a hopeless, weak victim that deserve nothing more than a hot klap for minor offence or/and a visit to the police. Whilst black people do attack and kill whites during farm attacks and house robberies. I have yet to hear about a black just beating to death a white person, tying him at the back of a bakkie, throwing him in a lions den or any other humilating beating in public.
During a fight there must a point where you realise that your opponent is weak and harmless.
I guess this foreigner is not well aware of our history.
Gwebecimele says:
September 3, 2010 at 14:47 pm
Hey Gwebs,
“3. Why was this guy driven home?”.
I have yet to come across anyone who, after being found driving drunk, is driven home by the police.
Not even one judge who only had tea or one former Metro cop boss.
If anyone knows of such an instance please let me know.
@ Tatera
“Yea, as cyclist myself I find it as funny as the recent taxi-train tragedy”
Other than being a cyclist this says enough about you.
This PdV needs a Spokesperson;
Johannesburg – The Young Communist League (YCL) has criticised Springboks coach Peter de Villiers for his comment on the national rugby team being 100% behind murder accused Blue Bulls player Bees Roux.
“His insensitive comments are an embarrassment to the nation, particularly for someone who holds a national position,” the YCL said on Friday.
“We urge that he withdraws his statement and apologise(s) to the bereaved family, who are mourning the loss of their loved one,” it said.
Gwebe
“I have yet to hear about a black just beating to death a white person, tying him at the back of a bakkie, throwing him in a lions den or any other humilating beating in public.”
You’re very selective in the news you care to read then aren’t you?
@ ZooK
Give me 3 examples of what I might have missed.
@ Gwebecimele,
I’m sorry, but I can’t not respond to your comment.
In the first instance, it appears that you almost justify the farm attacks and killings and torturing that has taken place on elderly white people and children by blacks, because they have not been done in public. I may have misinterpreted your statement, but that is how I understand it. Even the murder of ET was undertaken by two Black youths on a sleeping, 69-year old man.
Secondly, I’m sure that with research I could cite several public murders of white people at the hands of black people, but for now the only one that springs to mind is Amy Biehl. Talk about a weak victim!!
However, I think you missed the point of the letter. The author was asking why this had to be racialised. His argument is that not every negative engagement between people of opposite races is racist. The fact that you and I don’t always agree on issues does not mean that we disagree because because we are racist against each other, but because we just don’t agree.
Gwebe,Samantha etc. I do not usually follow crime stats, but I really want to congratulate you for engaging in a frank debate about which race kills which other race in public, in dignified privacy, and by lion feeding techniques. This is the kind of exchange that makes SA so special!
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
September 3, 2010 at 15:41 pm
Absolutely.
There are ugly instances everywhere.
Pointing out gruesome examples to satisfy one or other ego would, in addition to the already endured trauma by the survivors and/or their families, be extremely callous.
Gwebe
Marzaan Kruger – didn’t die but was left for dead. If whites had done that to a black baby you can bet it’d be racist but not hearing much because the alleged perps are black.
ET – much as I may have sympathy with the motives, still bludgeoning an old man in his sleep (so far as we know) on racial grounds.
The lion killing by the way – white man was convicted of being an accessory AFTER the fact in disposing of what they thought was a dead body. Two black workers had earlier beaten the deceased in a condition of near-death. Get your facts right.
Elderly white people tied up, sometimes burnt with irons, raped and bludgeoned to death. Farm murders are often the most brutal – if you think that a farmworker had been tied and burnt to death with a hot iron wouldn’t make the news and the white perpetrator hanged out to dry with mass protests calling for him to be killed wouldn’t happen then you’re in dreamworld.
Every time a white murders a black it is big news and it is a racial issue.
Every time a black murders a white it is just a normal crime issue despite whatever brutality may have taken place. A 61-year old grandmother was tied up, beaten and murdered this week.
Despite all protestations to the contrary, black murders by whites are high profile and cause the biggest media uproar.
Bees Roux killed a policeman who may well have been threatening him, we don’t know yet.
Do you think all the cries of “racist murderer” don’t humiliate the target? What if he has a genuine case? What then – I suppose we’ll see more posts saying: “I have yet to hear about a black just beating to death a white person, tying him at the back of a bakkie, throwing him in a lions den or any other humilating beating in public.”
Open your eyes my friend and be balanced about it.
None of it is pleasant as I’m sure you will agree and I wish we didn’t have to have these conversations.
……….and nothing but the truth
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/De-Lille-new-W-Cape-minister-20100903
@ Gwebecimile…….I am not sure that I am reading you correctly but you appear to trivialise farm murders in an effort to express yourself regarding the attack on the metro police officer and other similar incidents. In the context of these incidents you make comments like…….”In many of these instances it is a hopeless, weak victim that deserve nothing more than a hot klap for minor offence” and “During a fight there must a point where you realise that your opponent is weak and harmless.” No argument with that.
With this in mind I decided to do web search of the words “Farm murders South Africa” to try and understand your comparative values. Big mistake because I do not have a strong stomach for the monstrous. From a very superficial read I saw ample evidence of “hopeless, weak victims, and opponents who are weak and harmless”" who were on the receiving end of far more than a “hot klap”. I wonder how many people realise just how awful this really is. My curiousity has seriously darkened my view of this country and it’s future. From now on I will have a more informed understanding of what farm murders really entail
Here we go, Gwebecimele.
Johan Strydom.
I agree with the rest of your post.
http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Boer-leef-wyl-bakkie-hom-sleep-20100527
@ Gwebecimele,
It appears that Max was not fired, but is being redeployed as an MP. Patricia de Lille is becoming Social Development MEC, Ivan Meyer is moving to Sport and Culture and current MP Albert Fritz is taking up Max’s post.
Now we know what is going on!!
What would make this blog worthwhile is if we all acknowledged that ascribing the worst imaginable motive to the opposite race is the national sport and the appropriate response to it is sneering it off.
Hey, Samantha, where is Manie van Dyk being redeployed to? With the toe of someone’s boot, hopefully?
@ Brett,
Sorry, haven’t a clue!! They will be launching a Parliamentary investigation next week and he will also be appearing before the DA’s Federal Executive to explain himself. Beyond that, only time will tell what the outcome will be.
Whilst I do not negate any potential wrongdoing on his part, I find it a bit strange that you have it in for him so badly when he is not the only one named in Patricia’s report. Is it personal?
Gwebecimele says:
September 3, 2010 at 12:39 pm
@ Brett
C’mon Brett, the poor man’s life has been destroyed already.
Seems that only one leg of Karg has survived.
If the law is an ass Judge Tolmay is a F.I.
Selfish bastard! What kind of message does this send about intimate femicide? What deterrent effect does this sentence have? Are the family supposed to feel vindicated, that justice has been done?
What kind of equivalency is there between Willem DuBuisson making 12g jackal traps in the privacy of his garage – for which DuBuisson got 15 years, and this selfish bastard killing his wife and kid, for which Judge Tolmay gave this a slap on the wrist?
No, Sam, just thought I’d ruin your TGIF!
Maybe a bit premature to take a firm view of the Bees incident? Speaking generally, it seems to me many South Africans (of all races) are quick to impute racial motives or racism when the victim is someone of the same race but slow to do so when the victim is someone of a different race. Given the fact that race hovers just below the surface in almost everything we do, I tend to think that race often plays at least some role in these incidents (whether the victim is black or white), but am always relieved (like a good liberal!) when the facts come out and it is not the case. So on Bees I have my suspicions but I believe its better not to speculate until the full story is told in court.
Hope Carte Blanche repeats their recent exposes of ‘Tshwane’ Metro. To refresh people’s memories and recreate the context of the ‘Bees’ saga.
Once again, we all pay the price for poor policing. How many of the Carte Blanche exposes have been resolved with a conviction? That cop could have been alive. If some of his colleagues had been busted.
Remember Joe Duffy, 82? Bully by the name of Andre Dirker (half his age) beat the hell out of him. Duffy died couple of months later.
Unfortunately, there is no ‘fair play’ inoculation. If only we had all been socialised to believe ‘racism’ and ‘fair play’ are oxymoronic. So are ‘fair play’ and beating the hell out of someone half your size or twice your age or incapable of defending themselves.
On a perhaps unrelated topic (although it seems that one can post anything on this blog), I read in today’s Times that cde Blade Nzimande has exposed Prof de Vos as a “right-winger” as a result of the professor’s recent articles about the aforementioned friend of the workers. Confirms my view that in contemporary SA the terms “racist” and “right-winger” have become absolutely meaningless. Nevertheless, on behalf of us self-confessed “right-wingers”, I welcome you to our ranks, Prof de Vos. May your “reactionary rantings” lead us into a racist-colonialist-imperialist-apartheid-neo-conservative-neo-liberal future. (LOL)
Gwebecimele says:
September 3, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Hey Gwebs,
“the poor man’s life has been destroyed already.”
I hope you’re not serious.
This guy is alive.
It’s the poor woman and child whose lives have been destroyed.
The sentence is disgraceful.
I think “some among us” don’t take Black lives (or should that be deaths) seriously.
Here’s a judge that is worthy of respect.
When passing judgment, Judge Makgoba said Thavhanyedza should have filed for divorce if he desired to escape his souring marriage. Venting his anger on his children was exactly the wrong thing to do.</B “The communities are sick and tired of woman and child abuse and it is good to look after their interests when I am passing this judgment,” said Judge Makgoba.
http://www.zoutnet.co.za/details.asp?StoNum=701
And another.
Just before sentencing Pretoria High Court Acting Judge Mahomed Ismail said he could not understand why a person with Viljoen’s background and upbringing could do such a “heinous thing” as slit his wife’s throat. …
Ismail said the crime was against the “vulnerable in our society, a defenceless woman”.
“Not much is said about the victim whose life was extinguished like a candle in the wind.”
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20081004091006873C268106
although i really do have sympathy for the fallen cyclists, i would not feel so very sorry if the one that skipped a traffic light last sunday on victoria rd in campsbay, and almost caused me to run over a pedestrian on the sidewalk, with my car, was one of them (in fact, the only one)
btw, if anyone is interested, there is a link to a video of the MTN cycling incident available
A DESTITUTE woman has failed in her high court bid to stop the eviction of her family from their Ginsberg home, largely because her lawyers ran her case in a “grossly unreasonable and negligent” manner, the Grahamstown High Court has found.
The lawyers did such a disservice to their client, Pumla January, that Acting Judge Glen Goosen took the highly unusual step of ordering advocate Sandile Majeke and his instructing attorney from the King William’s Town Justice Centre, Mr L Ndunyana, to pay all the legal costs on behalf of their client.
http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=378606
What is happening in our country? Nobody in government seems to think the country has problems.
They complain about the press in the meantime everything ia falling apart.
For example …. and pleeease there are numerous others
Samantha says:
September 3, 2010 at 13:02 pm
While I understand the need for a discussion such as this one, I feel that the state of our courts is of more concern than what the colour of a judge is who makes a poor decision.
The courts are a mess,
and our police force is a mess.
n Verkragtingslagoffer moes van ’n polisiekonstabel hoor sy is ’n rassis omdat sy nie wil hê ’n swart ondersoekbeampte moet aan haar saak werk nie.
Dit is maar een van ’n rits probleme wat die 35-jarige ma van ’n sewejarige seun met die polisie se hantering van haar nagmerrie het.
Die vrou het dié konstabel, die aanvanklike ondersoekbeampte, Woensdag gebel oor die vordering van die ondersoek.
Sedert sy en haar seuntjie ses weke gelede in hul kamer in The Orchards in die noorde van Pretoria deur ’n man met ’n tuinvurk oorval is, het die polisie haar nog net een keer besoek.
Die aanvaller het hulle aangehou en geld geëis.
Haar seuntjie het gesê hy het R30 in sy beursie.
Die aanvaller het die R30 gevat, die ma verskeie kere met die tuinvurk aangerand, haar verkrag en ontvoer.
Sy het vermoedelik uit die bewegende voertuig gespring.
Sy kan die voorval nie onthou nie, maar is langs die Mabopane-snelweg (R80) buite Pretoria gevind met ’n gebreekte regterarm en -been en ’n gebreekte kakebeen.
Die vrou se probleme met die polisie het begin toe die polisie meer as twee weke ná die voorval en nadat Beeld hul aandag daarop gevestig het, haar verklaring afgeneem het.
Twee weke gelede het haar eksman haar motor in die polisie se skut gekry. Die motor is eers drie dae ná die voorval daar ingeteken en daar is glo meer as 200 km met die motor gery. ’n Week gelede wou die vrou haar besittings kry wat in die motor was.
Dit was by die Akasia-polisiekantoor ingeteken. Verskeie van dié besittings is glo weg.
Toe die vrou die konstabel vra oor die vordering van die saak, het hy erken hy het nog niks gedoen nie.
“Die konstabel het gevra ek moet hom ’n beskrywing van die man gee. Ek kan nie, want ek kan regtig nie onthou nie.
“Toe sê hy hy kan nie help nie,” het die vrou gesê.
“Toe ek vir hom sê hy doen nie sy werk nie, het hy gesê ek is ’n rassis, want ek wil mos nie ’n swart man vir ’n ondersoekbeampte hê nie.
“Dis net dat ek ’n vrou verkies. Ek is doodbang vir mans.
“Ek wil nie eens uitgaan nie, want dit lyk of elke tweede man op straat my wil aanval.
“Dit gaan nie daaroor dat hy swart is nie. Dit gaan daaroor dat hy nie sy werk doen nie.”
Lt.kol. Eugene Opperman, Gautengse polisiewoordvoerder, het gesê die polisiebestuur is bewus van die polisieman se optrede en dit “kry aandag”.
@ Marco Polo
“in contemporary SA the terms “racist” and “right-winger” have become absolutely meaningless”
Not so, MP. Allow me to explain. Rght-wingers are defined as those who, directly or indirectly, obstruct TRANSFORMATION. As Mr Mbeki taught, even “ultra-leftists” are, objectively speaking, “right wing”, precisely to the extent they fail to align themselves with the National Democratic Revolution and its designated institutional vehicle, the African National Congress.
Hope this helps you understand.
@ Maggs
This is a very sad story and nothing can bring back the two lives that were lost. This man who paid for his wife’s fees and possibly had good plans for his family was shocked by a wife who cheated on him and decided to take away his family to live with another man. He did not only kill them but also tried to take away his life. I have never been through anything like that but I can only imagine what went though his head.
His plan was to die with his family and not go through life without them.
I might be wrong but this man will never be the same and his life is shattered.
I am not condoning what he did but I do not think a life jail sentence would help in any way.
@ Sam and others
Death, murder, rape and other horrible acts are bad irrespective of the race of the victim.
My posting is a response to the letter Sam linked to this blog which quickly eliminates race and cruelty as factors in Bees case. I argued that it is too early to speculate on what has happened and I mentioned other cases that had race as a factor. It is a fact that we live in racially charged society and Pretoria nogal.
@ ZooK
You are scraping the the bottom of the barrel and none of you examples meet the requirement.
Gwebecimele says:
September 4, 2010 at 21:15 pm
Hey Gwebs,
There is no justification in this case for murder.
People are not possessions.
It cannot be made to be acceptable in society that the ups and downs of everyday life is a basis to kill people.
But more than that – what message has been sent out by this sentence?
It’s ok to kill your partner and children if you get really pissed off?
It’s not his actions that are shocking, rather it’s that of the judge which is beyond shocking.
Gwebecimele says:
September 4, 2010 at 21:15 pm
The man had every reason to be to despondent and angry. That did not give him the right to kill his wife and son.
By all means take his own life.
The judge really did sent out a shocking message – far too many men regard their families as “possessions”.
The cutting and pasting syndrome seems contagious.
Selebi II?
Cele lied, say his generals
Correspondence shows that SAPS and public works officials questioned the need for the moves. The SAPS finance section warned in June that its budget was already exhausted and budgets for other policing “priorities” – such “tactical response teams” and “provincial war rooms” – may have to be stripped to fund the dodgy leases.
Hlela also denied having resigned. “General Cele lied to parliament. I didn’t resign, but he offered me a golden handshake, I have a letter with me that he signed. I have been with the SAPS for 30 years but I can tell you now that my approval was done (within) an hour.”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article641584.ece/Cele-lied-say-his-generals
Et tu Zweli?
Mkhize, as KwaZulu-Natal economic affairs MEC, wrote in July 2005 to then local government and traditional affairs MEC Mike Mabuyakhulu, asking him for R43.2-million from the poverty alleviation fund to buy water-purification plants from Intaka.
Intaka allegedly sold a plant valued at R420000 for R4.9-million to the provincial health department.
Mkhize wrote: “It is my view that it would be more than justified to fund the purchase of this equipment from the poverty alleviation fund, which is intended inter alia to fund exactly this type of social and economic related infrastructure.”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article641602.ece/ANC-chiefs-caught-up-in-R200m-tender-trap
In case you missed this under the princess blog:
Brett Nortje says:
September 6, 2010 at 10:03 am
What do you guys think the Police Parliamentary Portfolio Committee will do about Bheki Cele?
Call him in and confront him with the fact that his generals say in the Sunday Times he lied to Parliament?
Awful spectre that the ANC has raised. F clowns!
Once again. Everybody keeping copies of all correspondence with their colleagues and superiors. Wouldn’t wonder if the whole civil service is going to start asking for written instructions whenever they deal with a connected person. Wouldn’t wonder that everyone is not already switching their phones to record when dealing with connected people and deployed cadres.
Socialist surveillance society in practice.
@ Maggs and others
I am not justifying the murder but I am merely arguing that a stronger sentence will not achieve much. You might argue that this sentence will send a wrong message but I do not agree with that and I doubt if we have a significant number of potential wife/husband killers who are also prepared to die with their families unless we really have a hopeless society.
The circumstances of this case are very sad for all involved and I doubt that now people will shoot themselves in the head and hope to survive and escape going to jail.
What this man did is wrong, unacceptable, barbaric or any strong word you can think of buta stronger sentence will not make this any better.
If this man live to commit another harm to society, I will have to swallow my words.
Now back to the Bees story
A man (not a a cop) was arrested yesterday for using his credit card.
I read the story of the witness who saw Bees attacking the cop and the poor man had to run for his after Bees chased after him. So far there is no indication to suppport a claim of self defence.
It is interesting that when people want to further their arguments people like convicted ET suddenly become weak and harmless or the two guys who threw Nelson Chisale into lions den were acting on their own when there is white man convicted of giving orders.
Please read the following link
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article640747.ece/Familiar-tale-of-the-friendly-man-who-would-not-hurt-a-fly
Gwebe
My point is thus:
When a white kills a black, the immediate assumption is that the white acted out of hatred for the black.
When a black kills a white, its ordinary crime.
Its almost like whites could have no other reason for hurting a black other race (if so, why did a Final Solution not take place during Apartheid?), whereas blacks have plenty of other non-racial motives for hurting whites.
That a black has not thrown a white body into a lions den or dragged him behind a bakkie does not mean that the brutality of a lot of crimes does not equal or exceed the above examples and does not have its essence in racial anger.
I read your post as stating that blacks act out of criminal motive whereas whites act out of racial hatred.
The Bees Roux case is just another in a long line of automatic assumptions to justify how bad white must be and enhance black myths about white people. The next time an incident happens we’ll hear something like this: “these white people throw us to the lions, drag us behind bakkies and beat us to death with their bare hands”, almost like its a cultural demand for whites to wonder around “shopping” for their pet lions or bakkie accessories!
And in that respect your post is fundamentally wrong, whether the example of ET or lions or whatever is used.
@ ZooK
A black can kill a white out of pure hatred.
All I asked for was 3 examples to disapprove my claim and I have given up.
All I got was broken ankles being compared to death of children and other far fetched examples.
I did not say blacks and whites only commit murder from the two extremes you mentioned but I said there is enough race fuelled assaults in our country and in most these, blacks are victims.
Lets wait and see what comes out of Bees case and don’t discount race as a factor in this case.
But, Gwebecimele, I gave you the link to the murder of Johan Strydom who was dragged behind a bakkie…
Brett Nortje says:
September 3, 2010 at 17:42 pm
Here we go, Gwebecimele.
Johan Strydom.
I agree with the rest of your post.
http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Boer-leef-wyl-bakkie-hom-sleep-20100527
“John Roberts says:
September 3, 2010 at 13:20 pm
It’s obvious that the judge gave the work to his black assistant.
Thank You.”
All these protestations that it cannot be racism, etc. Does not take into account we all have been effected by apartheid, colonialism, and the general prejudicial system of the world, which reinforces racism and sexism, that we have to be conscious about it all the time.
That is why the racist comment by John Roberts was completely ignored by all my learned friends. Samantha, Zoo Keeper, and the rest who agree with their statements would do well not to be defensive about the nature and subliminal form of racism in South African society. Rather than making it their duty and contribution about trying to prove that it was not racist, their contribution to society would be better served if they fought tooth and nail against racism.
And Prof, if John Roberts was joking he can retract and apologise for a joke in bad taste. But if he was not a more fervent, chest beating apololgy would be required before he can be allowed to spew his bile on this blog.
Maggs, Gwebs, Mikhail, & Prof, pease check out P4 of Sowetan, the article headlined ‘Winnie slams dissent at Makume funeral’. It certainly gives the best way forward I’ve heard in a very long time.
@ Donovan
Thanks for the heads up.
I dont think cabinet would like this statement.
“You can see poverty even when you drive around this place and this is not what we fought for as the ANC.”
@ Gwebe, Zook:
It is very distasteful that we should be reducing murder to racial-scorekeeping. Nevertheless, I think both Gwebe and Zook are right, but for reaons they may not acknowledge:
1. Gwebe does appear to apply a presumption that, when a white kills a black, the attack is racially motivated, a presumption that he does not apply when a black kills a white.
2. But perhaps there is some basis for Gwebe’s presumption. It is this: Most “black on white” attacks are associated with property crimes, hijacking, robbery, etc. In that case, we need not look for a racial motivation, as such. On the other hand, whites seldom attack blacks to rob them; the latter, being generally poorer, simply have less that is worth stealing.
3. If that be the case, perhaps there is at least some reason to assume that white on black crime is more often racially motivated that the other way around.
All of that being said, I still say it is probably socially desirable that we all start with the assumption that cross racial attacks are motivated by something other than race, until there is some good eveidence to the contrary.
Re the lenient murder sentence, my experience, we should be very hesitant to second-guess a sentence unless one was privy to all of the evidence in the case. There are many instances where, having been in court, I thought the outcome of a particular case was about right — but where I know that, had I had relied upon press accounts, I would have been convinced there had been a grave miscarriage of justice.
@ Michael, Maggs , PdV
Did you watch Andile Mgxitama vs Mackaiser yesterday on judge for yourself, it was a heated debate?
Michael Osborne says:
September 6, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Hey Michael,
There’s a couple of things that relevant.
zoo keeper says: September 3, 2010 at 13:22 pm for example.
If we say that without having all the information in front of us, that we ought not to be outraged at what seems to be a travesty of justice, then we have to shut up when Schabir Shaik gets medical parole, when General Cele (or the Public Works) contracts for half a billion for offices in what seems to be shady deals or any of the other causes for public concern based on sound bites.
How do we express to judges that their sentences should reflect societies displeasure at vile and violence, especially women and children?
We, all of society, need to say to people that it’s wrong to kill someone because the perpetrator gets a bee in the bonnet.
Gwebecimele says:
September 6, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Hey Gwebs,
Yeah.
I though that both had very valid viewpoints.
It’s the kind of debate which broader society needs to be engaging in.
Maggs, I take your point. But, mitigation of sentence is a notoriously difficult, often subjective, evaluation. Sentencing guidelines do exist, but judges around the world resist them, with good reason. As for Shaik, Cele, etc, I do think your outrage should be tempered by awareness that you do not know all the facts. That is why the demand should not be that Shaik go back to jail, but rather that the circumstances of his release should be fully investigated.
Most white South Africans have some kind of survival strategy. Most revolve in some way around appeasement, in not pissing off the natives.
That, in and of itself, is a sign of what an abnormal, racially conscious, F. U. country we live in – where equality is a conceit – and how our politics are and will forever be inextricable mired in the 18th century. I do not condemn white South Africans for that. I understand. I do not like it, but I understand.
I know what it is to be so scared time stands still. I know what it is to fight for my life against black men I had never seen before or spoken a cross word to – - whom my dad had given a couple of Rand to each, a few minutes before.
His survival strategy.
I remember well every black face there laughing at these stubborn mhlungus who were being such spoil-sports by fighting to stay alive. Until I wiped those grins off.
I am also not unaware that not every black person in the country was there.
If the truth was always pleasant, why would anybody ever lie, Michael?
I find the racial-score-keeping game profoundly distasteful too. As long as a black man indulges in it, I will win it.
Because, I understand the implications of that kind of othering.
Because I have very young family.
And, because, the truth of the matter [and, are we not all seekers of truth?] is that statistically, the physical victimisation of blacks by whites is insignificant compared to the physical victimisation of whites by blacks.
@ Michael
I agree with your posting but I need to just do one correction. Let us limit the presumption to cases where there is a weak and defenseless victim who is attacked/assaulted for minor offence or unclear reasons like driving someone home or tresspassing/hunting/herding cattle in a farm.
Lastly Blacks are also capable of assaulting and killing because of hatred especially while toyi toying e.g Amy Beihl AND Zimbabwe (they needed to group and raise their motions before they can attack). I have asked for examples to prove my suggested ignorance.
@ Brett
I look forward to the day when blacks will either post or distribute in a meeting with whites a document written in Tsonga, Venda or Xhosa with a presumption that they can understand the language.
These things have a way of showing!!!!!
Gwebecimele says:
September 6, 2010 at 13:07 pm
Gwebs,
“Lastly Blacks are also capable of assaulting and killing because of hatred especially while toyi toying e.g Amy Beihl AND Zimbabwe (they needed to group and raise their motions before they can attack)”.
As I see it, that was the thrust of the position of Andile Mgxitama in the debate.
@ Maggs
You are right.
There is plenty of race denialists amongst us.
I think Gwebecimele is alluding to the Noordelikes case. Great!
I also do not understand that bullying streak that comes to the fore quite often in my own people. And, any kid who would mouth off to a couple of guys he can see are a hair’s breadth away from grabbing him because they want to shoot his dog is my kind of person. I like dogs. Finish and klaar.
But, there are subjective factors (seeing that everyone is so concerned with the condition of the perpetrator’s psyche) that everyone conveniently disregarded because raising them during the Noordelikes trial was politically incorrect. My brother, sister and I hunted on the Korff’s farm.
Poaching on that farm was so rife there were snares in the fences every couple of yards.
Like the Skierlik murderer. His family were victims of farm attacks.
Funny how the rationalisations and excuses and arguments in mitigation here always benefit one side. Entrenching the idea of sides.
Why does someone not make a note of these outrageous white-on-black attacks for us then we can judge how wide-spread they are?
Gwebecimele, hopefully google translate can translate Venda by now.
Maggs, are you like – Michael and Gwebecimele – discounting the fact that racial hatred is probably responsible for the extreme violence, and often, torture, that accompanies many of those property crimes?
@ Brett
Soon you will be telling us that thieves, shopliftters and hijackers are just driven by racial hatred. I was hijacked by black guys from Mamelodi and my brother was hijacked by colourdes and that really fits you theory.
Countries that do not have racism still have property crimes.
i think it important to note that in the “noordelikes” case the judge (pretoria HC judge president, bernard ngoepe) was quite categorical when he declared that he could not find, beyond reasonable doubt, that the murder was motivated by racial inclinations
so, in order for the “racially motivated” assumption to hold one would have to ponder what the outcome might have been, had the “trespassers” been white
and, that, nobody can ever know
we’ll watch the bees roux case with interest; sadly, some people have already made up their minds
Etienne, I would like to see a shake-up of the Tshwane Metro as the outcome of this Bees thing.
Once again, shocking policing is bedevilling race relations. Carte Blanche has exposed the shenanignans in the Tshwane Metro several times – were they followed up?
Hopefully, Bees has had at least one moment’s reflection that when a guy over 100kgs beats the hell out of a guy 30kgs lighter, fair play dictates that he stops when the little guy yells uncle. That is, if he had to lay a finger on the smaller guy in the first place.
As it is, two families are devastated and everyone’s kneejerk prejudice about the opposite race is being confirmed.
Here is a classic case of what I am talking about, now find me an equivalent with roles reversed.
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-09-04-waterkloof-four-guilty-even-if-innocent
None so blind as those who will not see.
Brett, to demonstrate that “racial hatred is probably responsible for the extreme violence, and often, torture, that accompanies many of those property crimes,” one would have to conduct a qualitative study of the extent to which “extreme violence” and torture accompany various “intra-racial” crimes, domestic violence, child abuse, “black on black” violence etc, then compare the incidence across the categories.
Are you aware of any such comparative study?
This what happens to blacks when they speak Xhosa to Whites.
You do it so often without any hesitation and link afrikaans stories on this blog.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20100906094007370C249844
Michael, I agree, which is why I use the word ‘probably’. We should have such studies, we do not. It seems as if our social scientists purposefully steer clear.
The closest we come is Zinn’s work.
Before 1994 the Commissioner of the SAP used to publish a handy Annual Report which contained much of that information.
Another failure in policing.
OK, Brett, then what is the basis for the use of the word “probably” in this context? Anecdotes? Instinct? Intuition?
Donovan
How the F do you get to the conclusion that I agree with John Roberts?
Michael, do you want to tell me that you go through life not observing, making deductions from your observations, processing them, thinking them over and applying your conclusions and inferences to form what you view as the bigger picture?
Cognitively dissonant?
Do you watch the news? Read newspapers? Follow this blog?
Why?
Brett Nortje says:
September 6, 2010 at 18:52 pm
Hey Brett,
What did you mean when you, at 18 years old, told two ministers then that apartheid was “unChristian”?
Maggs? What do you not understand?
Brett Nortje says:
September 6, 2010 at 20:12 pm
“Maggs? What do you not understand
unChristian
Brett’s experience reminds me that on my 9th birthday I told the Grand Wizard that racism was antithetical to Sufism. I was brutally branded, then expelled from the temple — and have never returned.
Thanks.
I assume you have a point, Maggs, and are not just making meaningless noise to fill a vacuum?
Dworky, it is a good thing I imported a dog from Slovenije and had prior impressions of the people before I ran into you.
Something my friend the Count of Celje used to say applies to everything coming from your keyboard: this is all philosophy!
(We sommer call it BS!)
Brett Nortje says:
September 6, 2010 at 21:15 pm
Hey Brett,
You appear to be vacillating.
It’s a fairly straight forward question.
What do (or did) you mean by unChristian?
I can only make a point when I am reasonably clear about what you meant.
maggs,
your attempt at pushing brett into a corner is decidedly unChristian
Maggs, apartheid was contrary to the values characteristic of those following the teachings of Christ which was to be just, humble and merciful?
You see?
etienne marais says:
September 6, 2010 at 21:41 pm
Hey EM,
LOL!
It does seem that Brett is unable to put his various comments into coherent perspective.
But I have it said along life’s journey that to question the Word of God is unChristian – so you may have a point.
brett,
so you mean to say that the NGK was wrong…they did NOT have god’s ear ?
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com says:
September 6, 2010 at 21:53 pm
“Brett is unable to put his various comments into coherent perspective.”
Really, Maggs? Incoherent? How?
Brett Nortje says:
September 6, 2010 at 22:02 pm
Exactly!
No doubt some leaders of the NGK did the best they could. Some were honestly mistaken. Some shut up because they thought all of us’ survival depended on it. Many were just too afraid to do the right thing.
Of course they were wrong. Aren’t they all today paying the price for it? Half-empty churches that are battling to pay the Ministers’ salaries and offer basic services to their congregations? Think they have not learned their lesson?
When is their penance over?
Denial never was rebuttal, Maggs!
Examples of my inconsistency? Specific instances?
Brett Nortje says:
September 6, 2010 at 22:08 pm
Did I say “inconsistency”?
Hey Brett,
Let me make it easy for you.
Here’s my question.
Which aspects of apartheid made it unChristian?
More specifically not just, humble and merciful.
How does answering that question (which would take a book to answer) help us get clarity over the issues in contention – more particularly, your allegation that my different answers do not make for a coherent consistent whole?
You’re wriggling again, Maggs! Like a worm on a hook.
Brett Nortje says:
September 6, 2010 at 22:22 pm
It seems that you really don’t know what you are talking about, which is unfortunate.
Let’s leave it at that.
hey brett, relax,
i was just taking a cheap shot…to keep you on your toes (so to speak)
but, since we’re on the topic now; seems that the vast majority of the NGK clergy of the previous century were morally corrupted and either megalomaniacs, or supreme cowards
that someone like prof heyns had to die for his (reformative) views, establishes the exception that proves the rule
so, if the doctrine of the fallen angel holds, then one must assume that the others represented the dark side
(…that is, if one believes in that sort of thing)
Typical sweeping Maggs generalisation.
Lets leave it at that.
You do not have to convince me, Etienne. I was 10 (during the 1976 riots) when I decided the NGK did things that were morally indefensible (in that case it was asking us to pray for the government ‘in these difficult times’.)
That made me decide not to put my feet in the NGK again, and I have not, except for family commitments like weddings and funerals.
I want to ask you a question, though: How much more destructive was that political elite’s prevailing world view than that of our current government, which has none of their challenges?
brett,
i was also 10 years old at the time of the 1976 (riots) youth uprising
perhaps i was not as socially/politically conscious as you were at the time; i still attended (“voluntarily forced” probably) the NGK until i was 16 years old
as to your question: brett, i’m not keeping a scorecard, but in my view the most destructive aspect of the previous dispensation was the devastating effect it had on the collective psyche of the majority of our population; over decades (perhaps even centuries) it institutionalised a myriad of different psychoses, of which we are unfortunately experiencing the effects today – to ignore or disown this complicated legacy is to completely misunderstand our history, our present and our possible futures
Good point, Etienne. I remarked yesterday how completely unnatural it is that most whites appear to have a conscious survival strategy. For 3 centuries – except for the Mandela interregnum – the whole country has been living with a threat psychosis the likes of which you would probably only find something close in Beirut, or Rwanda, perhaps? Or Bosnia?
etienne marais says:
September 7, 2010 at 8:26 am
Hey EM,
“the most destructive aspect of the previous dispensation was the devastating effect it had on the collective psyche of the majority of our population; over decades (perhaps even centuries) it institutionalised a myriad of different psychoses, of which we are unfortunately experiencing the effects today – to ignore or disown this complicated legacy is to completely misunderstand our history, our present and our possible futures”
Gwebe raised the issue of the debate on racist Judge Davis “Judge for yourself” above (September 6, 2010 at 12:42 pm)
Your comment supports the standpoint of Andile Mgxitama.
Until this is unpacked entirely, the pace of normalisation and transformation of our society is unlikely to be where it ought to.
Zille says:
However, Zille said the country’s success was tempered by extreme poverty and persistent inequality.
“The truth is that no matter how well we do, in any field, we will never be counted as one of the world’s successful nations unless we can overcome mass poverty.”
Zille said beating poverty was within reach if right choices were made as “all the latest research points to the conclusion: countries can choose to overcome poverty”.
Winnie said:
“You can see poverty even when you drive around this place and this is not what we fought for as the ANC.”
It is very interesting that Zille and Winnie agree on the same thing whilst others inside the ANC want us to believe otherwise.
@ ZooK and Brett
Whats up on this one? Another weak and defenseless victim being taught how to do shopping.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Shoppers-eye-smashed-in-shop-20100906
There must be something wrong in PTA.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=79&art_id=nw20100907084919640C380247
One thing we cannot discount is that, where a whole country has been living with a threat psychosis so long you better take into consideration that the other guy might have had a very bad day.
The last thing we need is government driving more people to despair.
Etienne, how would you weigh up the moral equivalencty of that impact on the collective psyche against more than 300 000 people murdered and 6 million being allowed to become infected with HIV?
brett,
“300 000 people murdered and 6 million being allowed to become infected with HIV” – not sure what you mean by this sentence, what is the context ?
Well, Etienne – you know what I believe! The ANC and the NP are flip sides of the same disgusting coin. They deserve a place next to each other on the scrapheap of failed ideologues. Despite ANC pretences neither has a stronger claim to the moral high ground than the other, although, perhaps, the ANC victims who suffered fatal consequences outnumber the NP victims exponentially.
Damn, I can’t believe I misspelled ‘equivalency’!
Hey, can one get a transcript of Davis’ show anywhere (although I went off Davis in a big way after a certain iniuria judgement…)
hi brett,
in my view it would be neither helpful, nor constructive, spending too much time thinking about and debating on the relative moral equivalency models of the different regimes; i say this for a number of reasons:
1) it is not an easy task to decide on the metrics – invariably one ends up comparing apples to stiletto heels
2) such a comparison’s different elements, even if well thought through, will remain highly controversial and would be open to perpetual refutation (a refutable example would be the one (i think) you were alluding to…you might not like it, or agree with it, but it is not difficult to prove that the example carries no absolute facts)
3) even if one is able to come up with a comparison model that proves to be reasonably unanimous, it could/would only be used for one purpose: as a crooked argumentation stick (you bad, me good !)
4) even with the best will in the world, the objective social scientist could not possibly allow for the effect of the complex causation that would flow from the prior matrix to the latter; simply because we are not fully aware of all the dependencies of the causative factors yet (e.g. information for inter-generational effects and lagging indicators cannot fully be accounted for yet) – it is on this basis that your “ANC vs NP fatalities” theory could be refuted
5) i am not aware of even one example in the history of the world where a similar exercise yielded positive outcomes (including the post-conquest debates of the athenian golden age greek “civilisation”)
you would be quite aware that i share many of your thoughts regarding the current crop of politicos; absent some very clear exceptions, they are a rotten bunch of (alternatively or collectively) power-mongering profiteers with dubious leadership skills, virtually zero integrity, shallow capacity for compassion, and a stoic ability for smothering initiative & enthusiasm (in other words, not too different in substance from the bulk of the previous regime…and the current “white & others” party is certainly not entirely exempt from this equation)
but as i said, there are some exceptions…fortunately
BUT STILL: we can vote them out !
(maybe even before jesus comes…btw, any inside info on a date for this event ?)
HOW: by gradually, over time, illustrating that white does not equate evil – that means we have to end the constant “africa this & that” bitching and bickering; think twice before we say something that might be construed as race superior dogma (and positively influence others who fail this grade); attempt, at least, to understand the subjective history as it relates to the revised “objective” version; understand, in the rational sense, that we have a marginalised poor majority, without who’s mobility we cannot go forward in a truly prosperous manner; smiling a lot more….and a whole lot of other shit (you catch my drift ?)
the irony is that, had we (as white south africans) truly committed to these actions and principles sixteen years ago, we could have been very far down the real path of shaping a future of hope for all; as it is, we have wasted enough time already, perhaps too much…in fact, our lack of commitment has served as one of the primary enablers with which the militant faction within the ruling party was able to hoist their populist flag
the bottom line is simply this: under current ANC rule, the way that it has deconstructed over the past three years, and without this trend reversing (which is highly unlikely) there truly is no realistic hope of a (simultaneously) non-racial, universally prosperous, truly democratic and peaceful long-term future
BUT: there is sufficient sensibility, positive aspiration and goodwill amongst the majority of the population to change this pessimistic prognosis over time ; i see it more clearly with every passing month
it’s just that the spoilers currently have disproportionately louder voices
A very interesting, logical, constructive approach, Etienne!
I couple of months ago I pleaded for an exit-strategy for JZ. Of course, as time progresses and he and his family dig himself even deeper into a hole it becomes ever more unlikely he will leave voluntarily, willingly or even easily.
Your post is a reminder just how easy it would be for South Africa to choose the high road: Cosatu dumps the ANC on the scrapheap of history to become a 21st century labour movement and looks for alliance partners in a government of national unity.
One problem is that the window of opportunity provided by the world cup is rapidly closing – because the ANC used it to urinate out of as soon as Sepp Blatter climbed on a plane. The surprising thing about the flood of hot money is that it has stuck around and showed potential to turn into medium term investment as fund managers look around. The world cup must be responsible for that.
But, the ANC is doing the best it can to run them off.
@ Brett
The NP is not dead, it lives in many amongst us.
Etienne
says:
“the irony is that, had we (as white south africans) truly committed to these actions and principles sixteen years ago, we could have been very far down the real path of shaping a future of hope for all; as it is, we have wasted enough time already, perhaps too much…in fact, our lack of commitment has served as one of the primary enablers with which the militant faction within the ruling party was able to hoist their populist flag”
It is not very often that you hear such level of honesty/admission and big ups to you. I also get encouraged when I hear statements like yours.
I have no doubt ONE DAY you will be able to bring someone like Brett and others closer to your thinking.
Your statement can actually create a good start for all of us.
Apartheid’s trapped within us- By Sekete kanye
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I reflect with a deep concern the demise of our country. Demons have not left the country with the promulgation of freedom in 1994. They are still very much entrenched within our public systems and certainly, within ourselves. The difference between pre-1994 and post-1994 lies in that our demons have changed their faces and evidently deepened their complexity. Indeed it is true that all of us have sinned and have come short of God’s glory. We who participated in the anti-apartheid struggle are not holier than chief architects and agents of the then regime. We are simply different in terms of the type of evil we embrace and the degree to which we display it.
There is an element of truth in that we may have not fought against apartheid primarily because we loved freedom and the people, we may have fought against apartheid because we hated oppression and the oppressors. As such, the drive for our freedom has been predominately hatred against the system instead of love for the people. As a result, even when apartheid is officialised away, hatred is still trapped within us and expressed through different channels, primarily against the poor, known and unknown to us.
Within the past decade and a half, we may have missed an opportunity to concretise and complete the building of the foundation of our freedom. During the Mandela dispensation we missed the focus onto defining the stages of our freedom and attending to each with prerequisites and necessities it required. At this stage, we missed that the independence stage as it were, has to be preceded and preconditioned by the emancipation stage. It is at this first stage of freedom wherein the remnant of oppression within us is to be defined, identified and eradicated completely. It is often not material but ethereal in nature. From the Bible, with special reference to the book of Exodus, Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt but struggled without success to take Egypt out of them. Through the desert experience, it became evident that Egypt was never taken out of Israelites. As a result, the overwhelming majority of Israelites, including Moses, did not make it to the promised land. Even the generations which made, according to the book of Judges, had perpetual struggles with oppressions of different kinds whose sole cause was traceable to Egypt. The foundation for their freedom was shaky and incomplete — they had not dealt with the Egypt in them.
Similarly, we in South Africa have somewhat skipped the phase of dealing with the apartheid in us. We may have dealt with the apartheid institutionalised in the public systems but we have undermined, deliberately or otherwise, the possibility that by 1994, apartheid may have already transcended its conventional locus — it may have been located intrinsically within ourselves and through a psycho-spiritual osmosis, transferred into our very core. Part of the main reasons for this fatality is that we have overlooked the criticality of our spirituality, the spirituality that informed the anti-apartheid struggle of leaders such as Albert Mvimbi Luthuli and later on, younger leaders such as Frank Chikane.
Instead of building onto it we nullified its revolutionary orientation and dismissed its transformational impact. As a result, we did not introspect as to how much of apartheid was trapped within ourselves, particularly in terms of the spirituality and the mentality. One of the characteristics indicative of the apartheid demon’s effect in us is that we have become driven by the “hatred-against” impetus instead of the “love-for” impetus. It is not surprising that even when apartheid is officialised away, we cannot love the poor among us as we love ourselves.
To illustrate this point, currently as it has been tradition even before 1994, the economic gap between the poor and the rich has been widening. Recently we have even superseded that of Brazil — how come? The dignity of the poor in our hospitals has been incrementally degraded to an extent of human debasement — how come? The education of the poor has been incrementally ravaged by the fierce contestation for political power and economic resources between government and labour, the department of basic education and the South African Democratic Teachers’ Union in particular. This contestation has been perpetuated at the expense, impoverishment and marginalisation of the poor.
These labour strikes in education though legal, are technically incorrect and morally wrong. They reinforce the apartheid’s historical trends and establishments in that, only former black schools are consistently disrupted to the very core. The former coloured, former white and former Indian schools never get disrupted as much and these are schools wherein the children of teachers in former black schools attend without fail. This means that in the current and future scenarios as it has been historically, the majority of the South African poor, will perpetually toil tirelessly in the widening gyre of oppression, it be economic or otherwise.
The bitter truth is that, on one hand, the viability of South African markets can only be sustained primarily by a significantly educated workforce but the reality is that, on the other hand, in the near future as it has already begun, the poor who still constitute the majority in this country will fail to compete for jobs in the domestic economy and the fewer that will be absorbed, will fail to compete for leadership especially in critical occupations. The racial imbalance in this regard, will still be maintained.
The historical fact is that education, at the micro level, is the only way through which the majority of individuals and families can cut and curb the vicious cycle of oppression and at a macro level, it is the only backbone for the lasting sustenance, development and growth of an economy such as ours. The acculturation of labour strikes, whatever the cause, is systematically sacrificing the future of this country and her people, especially the poor, at the altar of a cyclical oppression. This oppression is intertwined with and reciprocated by, among others, illiteracy, HIV and Aids, premature pregnancies, prostitution, armed crime, break-down of marriages and family structures, gender inequality, abject poverty and the slow down and regress of economic development.
As it may be too late already, as a matter of urgency and critical importance, the education provision service by teachers must be categorised as an essential service and government must, readjust her approach to teacher remuneration, capacity building and leadership. Also, we as parents, youth, churches and business should transform the way we approach our conceptualisation, responsibility and accountability in education. We must unite to improve and mainstream our contribution and at the same time, intensify the demand for a structural and consistent justice, peace and progress in the education system.
However, the turnaround of the system is impossible without the spiritual revolution and intellectual transformation of the system. The first phase of freedom is emancipation but the first step of emancipation is spiritual rekindling. It is through a spiritual rekindling that a spiritual introspection is possible. Spiritual introspection affords one an opportunity to critique oneself prior to being critiqued by others — this is the highest standard and moral of constructive criticism.
In the desert Moses could not take out the Egypt in the Israelites because Egypt had already killed the spirituality of Israelites. Israelites needed a spiritual resurrection before they could actualise the releasing of Egypt trapped in them. Similarly, our education system needs a spiritual redemption in order to disengage the apartheid spirituality in itself and allow the conscience, consciousness and intellectuality to precipitate self-reflection, re-organisation and actualisation.
No material condition is possible and sufficient for teachers to teach, only the spiritual revolution, intellectual transformation and emotional transcendence can fulfil these three needs aforementioned. This is a three-pronged premise onto which political, economic, social, technological, environment and legal development can anchor and unleash true freedom.
Gwebecimele, for years I thought exactly as Etienne.
Just how many shots do you expect me to have taken before I started retaliating?
The ANC is waging an unrelenting war of position against people like me. I’m not scared of a fight. I consciously kicked my idealism to the kerb.
If the ANC does not like the horns it should not have fucked with the bull.
Brett, has it ever occurred to you that the ANC’s actual “war of position” is in defense of the right of your people (and a few well-connected blacks) to enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world, while most South Africans stay poor and the rest of the continent goes to hell?
@ Brett
Michael is rigth, one day you will look back and thank the ANC elites. Believe me it can be worse.
Brett Nortje says:
September 8, 2010 at 11:27 am
“for years I thought exactly as Etienne.”
Haiybo.
Poor Etienne.
Publicly named and shamed.
yes maggs,
i confess: i’m a counter-counter revolutionary…it’s a bit like dividing by zero
Oh, please! How did those high living standards come about? A series of bad decisions? Plunder? Glorification and justication of rampant incompetence and an ethic wasteland? Pretending there is no such thing as an objective reality?
Listen. It is the year 2010. Space travel has become almost passe. Homes across the world are linked by means of telecommunications and people carry around on their persons means of acquiring and disseminating information – knowledge – more powerful than supercomputers that used to fill buildings three decades ago.
Do you not think it is time to stop making excuses for people who just happen to be black and hold everyone to the same standards?
In the big people world, actions have consequences.
The ANC’s predicament is the sum total of all its bad decisions which usually arise from its refusal to take cognisance of its objective reality. That same cognitive dissonance drives it to mess around with a media appeals tribunal and a secrecy bill in the year 2010 that are totally at odds with the way modern democracies are governed in the year 2010. Its leaders knee-jerk atavistic threats to nationalise industries and grab farmland and its unsophisticated membership’s greed corruption and incompetence are anachronistic. It is ‘rape, looting and pillaging ver2010′.
Centuries inappropriate.
We will not even mention its leaders’ personal behaviour.
It is time to man up and wake up in the 21st century. In many countries poverty used to be the natural human condition. There is a sizeable block of knowledge available as to what works and what does not, where poverty alleviation and governance are concerned.
The ANC must grow up.
Already, there have been compromises of our food security.
South Africa has a higher infant mortality rate and lower life expectancy under the ANC than under the NP.
Do use the pieces to form a bigger picture.
The ANC signed an agreement that now forms the legal framework in terms of which this country is governed. That is why it is now this country’s government. In the big people world, actions have consequences, and agreements are expected to be kept.
Brett Nortje says:
September 8, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Hey Brett,
For years you thought exactly as Etienne.
How long is it that you stopped?
Was it as a result of an ailment or voluntary?
@ Brett
Who did you vote for?
Jesus.
I said before: I vote for the ACDP.
@ Brett
“Space travel has become almost passe.”
Brett is right. But that does not mean we do not have space cadets right here in our midst!
Thanks.
Our loss being Slovenije’s gain.
@ Brett
“South Africa has a higher infant mortality rate and lower life expectancy under the ANC than under the NP.”
Yes, I know, Brett. And this just goes to show that you miss my point. Who is it that bears the primary burden of the higher infant mortality and lower life expectancy rate? Here’s a clue: Not middle-class white families.
The question for you (and for endelessly patient ANC supporters like Maggs) is: Why does a party that promulgated a Freedom Charter promising massive redistribution run this country in a way that favours the interests of rich and middle class white people, plus, not incidentally, a small group of BEE and affirmative action beneficiaries, politicians and tenderpreneurs?
If I were prone to conspiracy theories I would suspect that people like you, who vociferously attack the ANC at every turn, know in your hearts that an economically conservative black party is about the best you can hope for in this country. But you also know that the perception that “right wingers” hate the ANC builds its credibility of the gullible black masses who, if they had any idea what was really going on, would vote the ANC out in a flash.
“credibility of” = “credibility in the eyes of”
Michael, what gave you the impression I was speaking of lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality rates under middle class white families? I said no such thing! I thought no such thing. It is immaterial that dying babies are white or black – they are human.
I took it for a fact that most of those fatalities would be black, just as I take it for a fact that – when I speak of Cosatu as an employed elite – most of those employed Cosatu members are probably supporting a dozen of their poor relations.
@ Brett
Thanks for your response, I missed it before.
Well I guess you are a resident councillor for ACDP unless it was protest vote.
In summary, this is what ACDP stands for :
Introduce Basic Income Grant
Increase public sector salaries
Increase Child Support Grants to 18
Scrap OBE and replace with Value Based Education
Bring back Corporal Correction
All laws should be measured against Biblical Laws
Ban prostitution, gambling and same sex marriage.
Reduction in the age of sexual consent
Deny bail to murder, rape and hijacking accused.
I am inspired by much of what the ACDP stands for — especially the bit about corporal punishment and reduced age of consent. Tell me, Brett, would the ACDP support mild, consensual S&M practices by wholly heterosexual teens?
My apologies
(Against)Reduction in the age of sexual consent
Hey, Gwebecimele, how do you know I do not present a huge conundrum to the ACDP?
They cannot control who votes for them; and they cannot think of a way to get rid of me???
Brett Nortje says:
September 8, 2010 at 18:08 pm
Hey Brett,
“they cannot think of a way to get rid of me”
You are probably just being modest by hinting that they would even consider getting rid of you.
If anything the ACDP must find a way of keeping you and keeping you loyal to their cause.
Please tell me, if the ACDP were to win the national elections, what would happen to us atheists?
Would children be forced to accept the creationist view of the universe?
Would Stephen Hawking be welcome in South Africa or will he be treated like the way the ANC treated the Dalai Lama?
You’re assuming the ACDP know I am on their planet. I just vote for them.
Why do we need to wait for the ACDP to win before we take care of the Maggs problem? Can I not take care of that particular policy issue now?
Brett Nortje says:
September 8, 2010 at 21:03 pm
Hey Brett,
You’re being modest again – an impressive trait. There’s no doubt that the ACDP knows not only of you but about your support. It’s not many people who would be public about that.
Anyway please do go ahead on the policy issue – any of the three or all.
DLgDto http://wnbUj5n0mXqpcvm27Hms.biz