I loved the introductory paragraph to a story in today`s Business Day on the Constitutional Court case about the right of South Africans abroad to vote:
By the time the judges of the Constitutional Court had finished with them, all the parties in yesterday’s case — about the right of South Africans living abroad to vote — including the minister of home affairs and the Independent Electoral Commission (IEC), agreed that it was unconstitutional that some citizens living abroad were entitled to vote in April’s election, while others were not.
Well, it is not as if anyone who has read ANY Constitutional Court judgments on voting rights could not have predicted that this would happen. I argued on this Blog just a few weeks ago that section 33 of the Electoral Act clearly infringes on the rights of South African citizens to vote and that the arbitrary nature of the exceptions provided for in this section would make it impossible to justify in terms of the limitation clause.
If the Business Day report is to be believed, this has now come to pass and now the only issue is what remedy the Constitutional Court will be able to construct at this late stage – with only 6 weeks left before the election.
Will it declare invalid the section and read words into the Act and order the Electoral Commission to re-open the voter`s role so that those South Africans who find themselves abroad can also register to vote? Or will it fashion some other, more limited, remedy that will not assist the hundreds of thousands of South Africans abroad who are not registered yet?
It is going to be interesting to see how the judges come down on this issue as it might also say something about the attitude of the various judges to the seperation of powers question and how activist they think they could be to vindicate the rights of a rather unpopular minority.
What is surprising (or maybe not?) is that both the Electoral Commission and the Department of Home Affairs first tried to argue that this arbitrary infringement on the right to vote was justifiable. Surely, they have high powered and expensive lawyers who would have told them that they have very little chance of winning this case on the merits? If their lawyers did not inform them accordingly, they really should get new lawyers.
But maybe something else is going on here. If it is true – as Helen Zille claims (and she has not yet been contradicted) – that Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) chairman Brigalia Bam told her: ¨Why should South Africans living abroad have a right to vote because they ran away and bitch about the crime in the country?¨ then the stance taken by the Electoral Commission and the Department of Home Affairs makes more sense.
The decision to try and justify the indefensible was then a political and not a legal one. As a political, moral or ethical matter the Department and the Electoral Commission then felt it had to oppose the legally valid application because South Africans who find themselves abroad for whatever reason do not deserve the vote.
I could understand that the Department of Home Affairs – trying to gain a special advantage for the incumbent government party – would engage in such shenanigans. This is what the trappings of power allows one to do – to waste the taxpayers money in order to score some political points. It ain`t pretty, but it is understandable.
But the position of the Electoral Commission seems more troubling. The Electoral Commission is an independent Chapter 9 institution created by the Constitution. It has a constitutional mandate to deliver free and fair elections.
The Commission therefore has a constitutional duty to safeguard one of the founding values of our constitution, namely that South Africa remains a democratic state founded, inter alia, on the values of ¨[u]niversal adult suffrage, a national common voters roll, regular elections and a multi-party system of democratic government, to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness¨.
It seems to me it is no business of the Electoral Commission to make political or moral judgments about who deserves to get the right to vote or who does not. It is for the Electoral Commission to safeguard the right to vote as diligently as possible for as many people as possible. As an independent body, the Electoral Commission must fight with the government of the day if that government tries to disenfranchise some citizens. Otherwise it is not doing its job.
One would therefore have thought that the truly independent Electoral Commission (as one of the guardians of our democracy) would have long ago taken up the constitutionality of section 33 of the Electoral Act. That is its constitutional duty.
Yet, most unfortunately, it failed to fulfil its duty and rather sacrificed its constitutionally guaranteed independence to defend the government´s attempt to limit the right to vote. And then its chairperson was overheard making value judgments about certain sectors of the South African community who she thinks do not deserve to have the right to vote.
Whether as a moral or political issues she has a point or even whether one agrees with her assesment of South African citizens living abroad, is irrelevant. It is not her job to take such a moral or political stance. She and her Commission must be independent - which means she must be striving to serve the interest of all South Africans.
So far the Electoral Commission has done a relatively good job. This saga has, however, placed a question mark over the true independence of the Commission. It can and should do better in future.
By their very admission that the act is in voilation of the constitution, yet trying to defend it, suggest to me that the IEC is not independent, but controlled by political motives, and that raises the question : “What else have they done, or for that fact, any such instutution or body, that is unconstitutional.” We are back to pre 94 status again. Hopefully, the Constitutional Judges will do the right thing, declare that section of the IEC act unconstitutional, and force the IEC to register all (any race that is a SA Citizen) the chance to register and vote in the upcoming elections, and postpone if, if they really have to. That will at least be a step in the right direction to redeem themselfs, but many more steps will be required….
Just on a point of information.
In the last Italian election the Italian government offered return flights home from anywhere to citizens who had not registered abroad to vote, but who were outside the country.
Not suggesting we do that – its expensive, but it says a lot about the different attitudes.
There are not democracies that don’t allow their expats to vote.
Prof, the IEC is run by ANC hacks.
And you’re suprised they are picking a side?! pah!
I’m less concerned about the IEC than about the rest of the political landscape who neglected to do anything about this very clear human rights infringement. This was an ideal opportunity for all opposition parties to stand up to the school yard bully that is the ANC, yet everyone defaulted except the VF+.
If you cant to see an organisation run by ANC hacks, look no further than the SAHRC.
Excuse me, should read ‘if you want to see…’
Well, interestinggly enough, our current president seems to think that South Africans shold be encouraged to go abroad and develop skills and experience.
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2480511,00.html
This would therefore mean that, under the current wishes of the ANC, the ruling party was encouraging Saffas to abrogate their right to vote under certain circumstances?
Mrs Bam should come overseas and meet a few of the Saffas living in London, Aus, the States etc, who are working for a few years to pay off debts etc back home. For every one she meets who is racist blah blah blah, I guarantee you she’ll meet nine who long for the day when they set foot on South African soil again.
Yeah, we bitch about crime – it’s because it’s a problem…that’s what people tend to do when they’re getting shot, knifed, murdered, raped and robbed at every turn – they get upset. South Africans who stay in South Africa and bitch about crime were told to leave, then the ones who have left and bitch about crime are told we’ve deserted the country and don’t deserve our constitutionally guaranteed rights?
Does the ANC actually have any idea whatsoever what planet we live on?
All Chapter 9 institutions are run by ANC party hacks. This conflicts with the constitutional requirement that these institutions “are independent, and subject only to the Constitution and the law, and they must be impartial” … blah-blah-blah … and “these institutions are accountable to the National Assembly” … and who, pray, constitute the majority in the National Assembly? That’s right: ANC party hacks. Ho hum.
Those white racists are opportunists, they think they can do weaken the ANC rule and ultimately take power. Isnt it that in their racist mentality they think the ANC is weaked by these new black right wingers called ….errr….Cote or is it coke? …Anyway, let them come-they will go back abroad (hopefully for ever) like chickens which have been hit by storm! Bloody racists! Shouldnt you guys be informing them about the by-elections results in some areas so far? Hulle moet net vergeet OR come back transformed or ready to.
excuse the spelling mistakes, it is just that I hate people who dont want to transform-of which most of those abroad are. Those of them who mean well will forgive me. But I know that most think this is an opportune time to come and weaken the BLACK man power whilst he is facing an enemy from within. This is a clear counter r.., or rather, anti transformation intention on their part.
Spuy @ 11:31 pm
Take a deep drag on that joint, relax and then read this boet http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=299014
// Spuy @ 11:22 pm
Spuy, you clearly have race in mind a lot, seeing as no one except you mentioned it on here. I really wonder who the racist is.
Now let me tell you this, I live in the UK, not because SA has a black government. I (and quite a lot of expats) do no care what colour the South African government is. All we (and most South Africans) want is a competent government.
Opposing the ANC government’s incompetence is not racism. It is called democracy (something you might have heard of), and all people of South Africa, black, white, coloured Indian etc has a right to disagree with the ANC government and support whatever party they want. It shouldn’t matter whether you currently reside in South Africa or not.
George Gildenhuys @ 10:24 am
Running away from your country because they are “incompetent” is plain cowardice and not typical of the accepted behavior of the citizens of a democratic country. Lots of Americans thought GW Bush was incompetent but they didn’t betray their country and their patriotic duties as responsible citizens.
For me it it is very simple: you pay tax into a government and that gives you the right to vote. So we have a constitution (thanks to the ANC) and a very liberal one indeed : criminals and expats have a “constitutional right” to vote – ok fine, although I don’t like it, especially the issue of expats voting, I will have to abide by that then. Just as Shaik has a “constitutional right” to doctor patient privacy.
Who said I ran away? I did not mention my reasons for leaving South Africa, all I said it had nothing to do with a black government.
Trust me; it took a lot more than an incompetent government to make me decide to leave South Africa, the country I still call home and love.
Seeing as you don’t know me from Adam, you have no basis in saying that I ran away from an incompetent government (at least we agree that they are in fact incompetent). So please, if you are going to make assumptions, get your facts right.
PS, I do still pay tax in South Africa as well.
Ozoneblue, there is no explicit right to doctor-patient privacy/confidentiality in the Constitution. One does have a right to dignity, privacy and bodily integrity – all rights which might be implicated here – but these rights are not unlimited. So, for example, if I wanted to challenge the decision of the Parole Board freeing Shaik for medical parole reasons on administrative law grounds on the basis that the decision was ultra vires, then the necessary information will have to be provided in some way or another – at least to the court – so that it could adjudicate the case. The information can therefore not be treated as absolutely confidential. If I was the Sunday Times editor, say, and I received copies of the medical reports and these prove that the Minister lied and that Shaik is not terminally ill, I would allow a carefully worded report to expose this fact, even if there might be some infringement on the privacy of Shaik because the public interest in exposing illegality will weigh heavier that the privacy rights of the prisoner (I would think).
As a POLITICAL matter, it seems unclear to me why Shaik and his family would not want to release the relevant medical information voluntarily. Imagine the egg on the faces of all the opposition parties and naggers like me, if the medical information shows that Shaik is really at deaths door. And what kind of disease can be so horribly stigmatising that Shaik and his family would not want to inform the public about it and clear up the suspicion around him? If it was me and if I had nothing to hide in terms of the legality of the release, I would have jumped at doing just that and rubbing the noses of all the wise guys in it. The fact that this is not done here further fans the already extremely strong suspicion that Shaik got illegal and special treatment.
Ozone Blue/Spey,
It is quite clear that you prefer to interpret the Constitution in a party-political fashion which suits your own political agenda.
In any developed/developing democracy it is common knowledge that the more of it’s citizens who vote the more legitimate the democracy, and that includes those abroad.
If your logic flows correctly then why not take the vote away from those “unpatriotic” South African’s who dare express their negative opinions about the ANC government who reside within the government too?
Surely, if the ANC were so confident in the response of the general electorate to their exceptional ability to run a country freely and fairly, they would see that winning in an election in which their worst critics participated would merely strengthen the case that they really do deserve to run the country. It would strenghten their legitmacy.
The reason that the ANC, the IEC and their sycophants like yourself are running scared is for precisely the reason that they are not confident in the continued legitmacy of their right to rule. If they were, then this would be a non-issue wouldn’t it?
Sit back, have another sip of your chilled Chardonnay and ask yourself this question…what am I afraid about?
You haven’t got a clue about modern democracy have you…? Then again, nor do the ANC!
I can assure you H Smith, Having been around a couple of ANC ralies n having listened to a number of people calling the local radiostations- the ANC is more popular than ever, so I have no reason to be afraid of the “white vote” abroad, the DA, FF plus, ID and this new one having that bishop-turned overnight-presidential candidate top on its list will share those few votes, meaning that it wont eat into the ANC vote. By the way, we are making inroads in the white poor communities who fortunately realise that their better future, together with those of their many black brothers and sisters, can only be guaranteed by the ANC. You other white guys you grand dads and your dads looted the state and my fore fathers of their wealth thence you never knew starvation unlike some whites who are starving now. Its no wonder poor whites are hated more by their own than by blacks. We in the ANC will always be pro poor, regardless of colour and we know that is the only reason we are hated by selfish CAPITALISTS, PSEUDO INTELECTUALS, RACISTS, COCONUTS IN COPE and bloody investors whom there was no mention of them being scared off when America went socialist and yet we have this ROOI GEVAAR whenever SACP advocates for the poor of this country.
Spey – I fear that it is people like you who are the greatest danger to democracy in our country, not those South African’s abroad interested enough in this country to make the effort, and take the time to vote.
Your denigration of the groupings that make up our democratic machine is very Idi Amienish at worst and naiive and dangerous at best.
It is clear that you and your like-minded friends tolerate democracy but don’t embrace it. I fear that if you and your “friends” had their way that it wouldn’t only be South African’s abroad who wouldn’t be allowed to vote, but other vast portions of the non-ANC population that you seem to harbour such resentment towards.
Have another sip of your Chardonnay and have a think about why it is that the morally corrupt always hold up the upliftment of the poor as their greatest achievement or aim?
Is it because they somehow feel that such comments successfully throw us off their rancid scent, and that when they fling that much bull-sh*t into the air as we pursue them that it will obscure our view of their true behaviour?
Fortunately most real democrats have a real ability to look through that sort of old communist style rhetoric that we saw in East Germany and the Soviet Union…namesly….that all people are equal…but other (politicans in particular) are more equal than others…and ultimately…the poor and the destitute be damned?
Why is it, that it is always the most morally corrupt who argue that they are the greatest defenders of of the Constitution, when in the same breath they are releasing their mates from prison after only serving two years of a 15 year sentence, without the slightest indication that said individual is about to die a quick and painful death (after all – he was at home the next day having a nap…when for the last two years he has been so gravely ill that he wasn’t able to leave his private hospital to return for a nap on own his prison bunk for fear of dying the minute the prison warders turned their backs. (LAZARUS, ARISE, AND WALK AGAIN…!)
Your dangerous rantings against democracy make you sound worse than Julius Malema in tight pants wailing about the great injustice he has suffered at the hands of vicious criminals who broke into his E-Class Mercedes Benz at his Sandton home in Johannesburg(we won’t talk about his Range Rover in Limpopo now will we) because he desperately needs these beasts of burden to help propel him to whever the poor, and the infirm may need him, especially when he’s in a hurry or on rough rural roads…!) Wonder what the really poor ANC voters have to say about that…?
Come on Spey, you really have to do better than this in your arguments if don’t want to look like another ANC sycophant so far up JZ’s ar*se that unless you left your shoe-laces untied and and dangling down there’d be nowhere for us to grab onto to drag you out…!
You Spey, and your like-minded mates…are the real danger to our democracy, not those South African’s temporarily living abroad (by the way…you should get abroad some time…it may just broaden your horizons further than your nose, and give you some real democratic comparisons to use in your daily diatribes on websites and other media. Or would your great Commisars not countenace that, because after all, an educated and democratically informed electorate are the real danger to their continued mediocre and corrupt existence?)
Let’s face it…that’s the real reason you don’t want them to vote…and let’s face it…it wouldn’t be that far fetched to assume that that’s why the ANC have destroyed the current education system to the extent that it is almost irrepererable, after all, you and your mates don’t exactly sound like you would much enjoy an intellectual sparring match with an informed electoral base…!
H Smith @ 10:44 pm
“you should get abroad some time…it may just broaden your horizons further than your nose, and give you some real democratic comparisons to use in your daily diatribes on websites and other media.”
I was thinking the UK would be a good place to start. A wonderfully democratic country where saffer expats helps funding those “left-leaning” or “communist” like political concepts such as free health care and free education, and where investigations into BAE/Blair’s corrupt arms deal simply gets squashed because Blair said so.
I have never understood why these Euro based saffer expats who keeps on wetting their panties about the corrupt South African government have never considered staging demonstrations and protests against those UK/French/German arms companies who have also been impacted in the arms deal corruption. What is it – they don’t believe that the crime of corruption implies two parties or is it just that as I said before that they are cowards who are too afraid to bite the hands that feed them ?
Ozoneblue,
Seriously, the UK National Health Service is not something we enjoy! It is costing an arm and a leg (myself paying £350 a month) and not really giving any value for money. So, before you start criticising the “hypocrisy for helping to fund the communists” (my paraphrasing) perhaps you might want to ask whether we do it by choice or not?
Secondly, as a UK tax payer I do “wet my panties” and protest against the less-than-squeaky-clean Labour government.
Again, get your facts straight before ranting away about things you clearly know nothing about.
Now, Spuy, claiming the ANC will “always be pro-poor” is rather strange? Also your claim about hunger, is even stranger? I mean, if I look at JZ, he drives around in a (tax payer funded) convoy and has a lekker boep pens, owns masses of land and cattle and this is just all his legit assets. I doubt very much he “knew starvation” and I doubt further he knows anything about the plight of the poor.
But like usual ANC supporters, you cannot engage in a policy debate, rather you play the race card and when you run out of race cards to play you go for the victim card… Coward!
Isnt it sad that we have to convince you, wherever far you are, that things are not as you have been told by the media here. You guys are totally dependant on the media on developments here, yet you have the nerve to destructively critisise and call us (people who are observing daily, how the ANC lead gov is changing the lives of the ordinary) some insulting fancy english names when we are giving you a report from the townships, where you media friends never visit, yet attempt to report on. Call the electorates stupid, not educated, naive etc, but they KNOW what ANC has done and continues to do for them-nice enough, it is their vote which matters at the end of the day, isnt it? Not your false analysis.
Spuy,
I live in South Africa and I am not dependant on the media to let me know about developments in my own country. I live in a city where I have seen the rich become richer and the poor become poorer everyday since the ANC took over in 1994. The gap is still getting wider everyday. I see an education system where a lot of children in public schools are still unable to read when they reach grade 6, with no hope in hell of ever catching up. We, who can afford it send our children to private schools or former Model C schools, but the poor do not have the same luxury.
I see a government who recklessly introduces the OBE system to our schools with no regard for whether the teachers in the public schools have the necessary resources and skills to be able to implement it successfully. So the poor suffers yet again.
The service delivery in our public hospitals are terrible. The rich is not affected because they can afford medical aids and can go to private hospitals. So the poor has to deal with the terrible levels of service in the public hospitals. I have not learnt this in the media, Spuy and Ozone. I have seen it with my very eyes.
When I drive alon the Garden Route every three months or so, it seems another shanty town has sprung up, more people living in absolute poverty.
When the beneficiaries of land reform struggle, they are being threatened that their farms will be taken away from them.
What is so pro-poor about the ANC, Spuy? I just don’t see it.
Spuy, wtf are you talking about?!
“Call the electorates stupid, not educated, naive etc”
I am not calling the electorate anything; I am calling the ANC government incompetent. That is my opinion and why I would not be voting ANC if given the chance by the ConCourt. (by the way, thanks for the ANC for protecting my right to vote, something they apparently fought for, you know this voting rights thing… )
Of course you have a right to disagree and I respect your right to disagree. As they say in rugby, play the ball not the man, thus disagree with policy/opinion as much as you want, but your mudslinging will just invoke the same.
I support majority rule and if the majority electorate elects corrupt Zuma as president then he is my president as well and I will respect him as such. It still does not mean I have to agree with ANC policy, and it still does not mean I have to believe this myth about the ANC being pro-poor and it still does not mean I have to forfeit my constitutional right to free speech: I will criticise the ANC government when they screw up.
You would have thought that the ANC would encourage that, to have people point out where they can do better?
On another matter I’ve spent many times discussing politics with black South Africans in townships (I speak Southern Sotho fluently) and trust me, service delivery is a joke where I’m from, yes I’ve been to a township as recently as December and do not get all my information just from the media. Although I read the Sowetan quite often.
one more time: get your facts straight before attacking me.
George – I lived abroad for 8 years, and have been back for eight years…and believe you me…everything you are commenting about is 100% true.
The ANC are as corrupt, self-interested and paranoid as ever. Ever move they make, every comment their senior politicians and Youth League utter is as you see it/hear it.
Their supporters are by and large as aggressive, blinkered and intollerant as Ozone Blue and Spey, and trust me on this….and I say it again…trust me on this….if they were to come close to losing this election they would ignite this country without a thought for the consequences.
They drag Julius Malema over the coals for belittling Naledi Pandor’s accent…but boy, not a word over Julius Malemas verbal cholera that he spouts about killing for Zuma…not a peep…!
Then they engage in what can only be described as witness tampering by freeing Shabir Shaik, when we the senior cariologist at Shaik’s hopspital saying he actually discharged him in November last year, but the department of Corrections intervened, and we now know the consequences.
Then we have the police tapping the phones of the NPA in order to subvert an investigation into Jackie Selebi. In the failed democracy that is the USA (according to a certain fellow who wrote previously), this actually brought down an entire administration – the name Watergate springs to mind. (At least their democracy had a chance to muddle and stumble through in the manner in which it was intended – do you see that happening here? Not a chance!
Then we have the rocket scientist Jacob Zuma say the ANC will rule until Christ comes. (Maybe if he bothered with paying more attention to world events, he would know the Beatles tried that in the sixties, but that record didn’t play too well – he’s clearly a fast learner…!)
Then we have Home Affairs handing passports out to all and sundry, to the extent that the UK have seen this utterly failed department as being a danger to their national security. Now they have slapped on visa requirements, and the Dept. of Home Affairs are now promising new and improved passports in quick order. But when South African’s raised this issue years ago, the likes of Spey and Ozone Blue called us unpatriotic and racist. Essentially, the ANC administraion have run that government department so badly into the ground in the space of 14 years that our global peers no longer trust them! Well done to the ANC – you performed the way we know and expect you to perform!
The Education system has been all but destroyed…with the ANC’s own senior politicans arguing that it has failed the youth more dismally than any form of Bantu Education did in the past – this from the ANC itself!
Let’s see…mmmh…we have run a world class electricty generator called Eskom into the ground in less than 14 years despite the ANC government’s reports warning against that very eventuality. It’s not such a tough problem though…electricty prices now only need to double and then double again to sort this problem out…!
What about the road network in South Africa? Well, we are R80bln behind on road maintenance (that’s maintenance, not new roads). If this isn’t sorted in the next 5 years, those roads it is speculated will have to be replaced at a cost of approximately R500bln rands.
We have hardly spent a cent on any new sewerage systems despite rolling out hundreds of thousands of new houses, and encouraging masisve urbanisation. The current sewerage network dates back to the 1940’s and 1960’s…and of course the great ANC that our mate above boasts so passionately about forgot during the planning phases that those people may also need to take the odd cr*p, and now we are left stroking our beards and philosophising about why such a vast number of our rivers and streams are riddled with the dealthy echoli.
Then we get onto Zim…! The ANC’s great northern struggle buddy who killed some 10’s of thousands on Matabeli, yet we embrace him and shake his hand every time we meet and never publically criticise…! The fact that he has killed almost 4000 of his own people since November last year with cholera, you would think would bring on some more stinging public criticism from down south…but not for an old ANC struggle buddy – he is not to be critcised officially by the President of this country or other government officials!
Then we have the Arm’s Deal, but let’s not get into that. Maybe ask Andrew Feinstein when you corner him in a coffee shop in London or Cape Town. It’ll make the hair on your back stand on end…!
Oh…and let’s not forget Travelgate where a rather substantial number of ANC MP’s (and yes one or two from other parties…we must after all be fair and objective on this site) were fingered for defrauding parliament…the most important seat of democracy in this country. Of ocurse it was covered up and cunning deals struck behind closed doors. Most of the aforesaid ANC MP’s implicated in the deal still have a hand in formulating the laws that govern this country.
Then we have the ANC Youth League in bed with Brett Kebble, Jacob Zuma making anti-gay comments, Malema belittling women who have been raped, Zuma saying if a woman dares to wear a kanga she is just looking to get nailed! And of course…let’s not forget the mess that is our health system which is a shining example of what the NHS should be and should become, because after all the ANC really are good at improving on historical service delivery records. Watch out NHS administrators…you have real competition down South here…! Then of course we have the ANC undermining the judiciary at every turn especially where JZ is concerned.
I don’t have time for more, but if you would like me to, I can happily come up with a few more.
However, I think you get the point. It doesn’t make a difference where you’re based, either locally or abroad, but if you look at the examples you will see what a danger to democracy these clowns really are.
I may not be offshore anymore, but unfortunately for you Ocean Blue and Spey, and your like-minded intolerates and anti-democrats, I will be voting, and I see what happens daily and how you and your mates fly so close to the wind, and the above facts will be informing my vote. A pity for you…these facts will also be informing many others’ views both locally, and abroad too…!
Love Ya!
ozoneblue // Mar 7, 2009 at 10:52 am
Ozoneblue wrote : “……For me it it is very simple: you pay tax into a government and that gives you the right to vote……”
Do those in prison pay tax ? Yet they can vote.
The majority of the “poor” masses have an income below the tax bracket, yet they can vote.
But smart guys like Big Slipper and George Gildenhuys and many others like them living (working) abroad may not vote (even if they are still paying taxes in South Africa)
I would just love to see a voting system based on how much tax you pay. Infact it would be a brilliant idea if voter registration could be linked to the SARS office. For example voter A pays tax in bracket 5 his vote counts 5, voter B pays tax in bracket 4, his vote count 4 etc etc….and finally those who are eligible to vote but do not pay tax get a vote with count 1. This way those who pay the most taxes also have the most say about what happens with the money.
Ozone and Spuy, you are bitter and poisoned and you cannot think logically, its not in your genetic makeup. I’ve read where your kind accuse the likes of Big Slipper , George, etc as being white supremacist, perhaps you listened to you little inner voice and instincts which made you realize just how superior they are to you.
shakira @ 10:54 pm
Shakira you make some salient points. That the ANC have been side-tracked on a generally corrupt new liberal agenda with BEE as its primary vehicle of “building an anti-revolutionary middle class” who will be content and happy to skim the milk off the top at the expense of the poor is in no doubt. But then our neoliberal media and constitutional super heros like PdV are on record defending BEE in all its splendid racist manifestation.
Well respected “left-leaning” journalists like John Pilger anticipated this outcome many years ago. So I would say it is high time that you re-evaluate your anti “left-leaning” rhetoric and understand that our middle class elitist luxury as at the crux of the problem.
The downfall of Mbeki: The hidden truth – http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-10-07-the-downfall-of-mbeki-hidden-truth
Retsrov @ 9:27 am
‘The majority of the “poor” masses have an income below the tax bracket, yet they can vote.”
That is not true – they all pay tax into the South African government in one form or the other, VAT, PAYE, etc. Besides – the working classes labor goes into building and maintenance of infrastructure which is more than enough to earn the right to vote.
Ozoneblue
Ozoneblue wrote : “……For me it it is very simple: you pay tax into a government and that gives you the right to vote……”
then you say..
“although I don’t like it, especially the issue of expats voting”
Theres a thing called what for it….Residency Test, go look it up.
you will be South African tax resident as long as you are “ordinarily resident” in South Africa. The meaning of “ordinarily resident” is that you consider South Africa your real home and plan to return to South Africa.
So since this is simple for you then you should agree that expats should vote? hello???
Pierre
Sorry for the non sequitur, but I would appreciate your views on True Motives v Madhi (543/07) [2009] ZASCA 4 (3 March 2009) if you have a moment to spare.
Ismail
Ozoneblue// Mar 9, 2009 at 9:28 am
“So I would say it is high time that you re-evaluate your anti “left-leaning” rhetoric”
When did I ever spout anti left-leaning rhetoric?
I am a big fan of John Pilger. John Pilger is a critic of the ANC, precisely because the ANC has deserted the poor.
My question still remains: What is so pro-poor about the ANC? There is absolutely no indication thus far that any of the things that I have mentioned in my post above will change.
shakira @11:13 am
Please accept my apologies then.
But the ‘hidden truth” as Pilger put it is almost ubiquitous in most mainstream media reporting on ideological differences in the ANC .
Take for example the latest from the M&G.
“and to ensure that the electoral slate has appeal to new voters and an urban middle class who are fed up with the ANC and broadly receptive to a message of modernisation and economic openness. ”
You see the only “modern” economical model is the neoliberal one that the author so conveniently forget to attribute to the ANC – seeing that it was the “business-friendly” ANC under Mbeki who gave as all this “economical growth” that for the impoverished majority is so hard to detect.
“If Pityana and company are to have a real impact, though, they need to be able to ignore the Mbeki-ite heavies and concentrate on the second- and third-tier leadership of Cope; young, educated, highly capable people who identified with the Mbeki project in the ANC primarily because they believed it was time to move beyond the ossified language of the Moscow party school,”
So who is the “Moscow party school” – ah, let me guess COSATU and SACP those evil “left-leaning” allies of Zuma ?
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-03-07-saving-cope-the-breech-baby
Okay Ozoneblue
I know the masses pay some measly little portion of tax (VAT, PAYE etc., but we all do that AND some more). The majority of South African tax income comes from a very small percentage of the population; and a very small portion of the total tax income, comes from the masses. In other words the people who contribute the least to the income of the country has the most say, and those who contribute the most has the least say. Many of the working class laborers are below the tax-paying bracket, yet they have the same say (vote). This One-Man-One-Vote system is not fair, it should be Every-Tax-Payer-Vote-Proportional-To-Tax-Rate, no matter class or race. Such a system should be easy to implement and it is reasonable and fair.
Obviously you just want to argue most of the time.
Why did you not respond about those in jail who do not pay tax (but leech off the tax payers) having the right to vote, yet true South Africans patriots like Slipper and George may not vote even though they pay tax. When these guys come back they will return with bags full of money, valuable experience, be an asset to South Africa, yet they may not vote to have a say for the future leadership of this country. Dis kak en jy weet dit. You guys pretend to not be threatened by their vote, implying that it wouldn’t make a dent in the outcome of the elections. Then why the hell argue against them voting. If you are so confident, be all for it, that ALL South Africans have a vote proportional to the tax they are paying.
Restrov, while I appreciate you argument (and thank you for the kind words), I also disagree with a voting franchise based on economic position. The only determinant of voting eligibility should be citizenship. I also believe that criminals who violate the rights of others should be disenfranchised, but that’s another point.
Spuy, having read through your posts, you clearly have a very ANC-sided view of the world. You clearly know more about Saffas living abroad than I do, so if you could perhaps tell me where to find these people who are plotting to overthrow the “black man government” I would appreciate it – since, clearly, the reason I’m overseas is to do the same. I’m going to need backup, and I just haven’t found anybody like that yet. Your help would be greatly appreciated.
Spuy, if you read my earlier post, you will also see that you are contradicting your current president, who seems to think it is desirable for South Africans to live and work overseas for periods of time, in order to skill themselves and gain international experience. Spuy, if you can find me a couple of South African hedge funds with net assets of around USD1bn, I’ll come back and work there…until then, I’ll keep on expanding my knowledge and skill set here, so that when I get back to SA I will be an even more valuable commodity than when I left. While you may see this as unpatriotic, treasonous, supremacist and racist, I simply call it a win-win for my future employer, my country, and myself.
Perhaps you could tell us what the ANC has done for YOU…not “the electorate”, but YOU yourself? We who live overseas do not rely purely on the media, believe it or not – we also have telephones over here, and the internet, and sometimes we call our families back in SA who we miss very much, and ask them how things are. When 75 year old Tannie Elsie down the road was raped and shot while she lay in bed, and it doesn’t even make the liberal neo-colonial racist western newspapers because it’s so commonplace these days, we get upset with our government. It’s not because they’re black, Spuy, it’s because a short while ago they told us to shut up about crime or leave the country. Tannie Elsie will have to shut up about crime now, because she’s dead – is that what the ANC government meant?
I don’t get angry with people like you anymore, because that’s the reaction you want – you like to provoke people like me, who are patriotic, but happen to be non-black and/or non-ANC fans into saying things that you can throw into our faces again. I do still get very very sad, that people with so few brain cells exist 14 years into democracy. But then again, it’s not your fault – the ANC managed to wreck our education system too.
One last thought, if you’ve managed to read this far – a patriot is somebody who loves their country. Somebody who loves the ANC and thinks that all whites are racists when they complain about the ANC is not a patriot, that is an ANC loyalist. Learn to love SA with everybody in it and all the differing views, and then you will be authoritative enough to tell other people if they are or are not patriotic.
Hi Big Slipper – good comments – here are some quotes which are relevant for our friends Ozone Blue and Spuy…:
Patriotism is supporting you country all the time, and your government when it deserves it…!
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
Never argue with a fool – he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.
It’s no point in getting upset with the undemocratic tendencies of people like this – they argue for undemocratic practices under the veil of a warped interpretation the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
They refuse to believe that a real democracy involves all of it’s citizen all of the time, not some of it’s citizens all of the time…!
The Constituional Court has just ruled that those living abroad who are registered to vote will be allowed to vote for the NAtional Assembly, but that those living abroad who are not registered will not be able to vote in this forthcoming election.
PdV – can you please tell me if this is consistent logic – how could one register to vote when offshore when you knew that you would not be allowed to vote if you were still offshore? How would an application have been received if it stated that you were offshore on a longer than temporary basis?
What are the backward looking implications of the practicalities of such a ruling?
Is it logical?
I would like to know more.
H Smith
Firstly congratulations for your country, i think that is a healthy sign for your growing democracy.
If I can answer your concerns about the judgement…my opinion is because the application was brought to the courts too late in the game and registration to vote has already been closed, my line of thinking looking at the bigger picture, if the the expats have not registered to vote for 2009 and can register now to vote this could case considerable delays to the election day and the outcome of the election would be delayed and I would imagin some political parties would start crying foul vote rigging and so forth.
However all is not lost as im sure there are a number of expats who have just gone overseas are registered to vote for 2009 but this is not the end in your next general elections you can be rest assured a huge volume of expats will register to vote. Its a sweet victory well done to you guys
H smith
here you go court has extended the application for special votes to March 27. have a nice day
How to apply for a Special Vote
1) You have to be a registered voter
To apply for a special vote in the upcoming 2009 National and Provincial Elections, you have to be a registered voter.
If you have registered before (either in 1999, 2006 or on the registration weekends in November 2008 or February 2009) you are a registered voter.
2) If you are abroad
You will be able to vote at the South African foreign mission closest to you. You can find out which foreign mission is closest to you by clicking on the link on the homepage of the C2C blog.
Voting at foreign mission will take place on 15 April.
Thanks Chris
This is good news. But let me just understand this…so, essentially, if any South African offshore has voted in the past, they will still be on the voters role, and as such will still eligible to vote – all they need to do is inform the Electoral Commission in the next 15 or so day.
Consequently this ruling will mainly penalise young people who have left the country for whatever reason, and who have never actually participated in an election before, and will therefore not have been registered voters.
My question comment/remains though: Essentially the Constitutional Court is saying that even though voters never had the ability to vote if offshore up until now, they were not prepared to allow the registration of South Africans abroad who had not registered because an arbitrary registration period for registering has come and gone i.e. this 15 day period (I think that is the right number of days) is more important than the right of young people to have exepected their govenment and/or the IEC to have provided them with the right to do so before?
How can people be expected to regsiter when the machinery was not in place (short of flying home?), and surely this breaks a very basic tenant of Constituional Law, which is namely to allow as best as possible pople to exercise their right to vote?
Surely this case argues for the fact that we should be very disappointed with the IEC who should have been making the correct (and non-party politcal noises) regarding South African’s abroad right to vote, and attempting to guide government accordingly w.r.t. citizens rights. Why did they not create more of a fuss about the unconstituionality of this matter at the time?
Essentially, this judgement is very biased against young South Africans who haven’t voted before, and may not have been aware of their Constitutional rights!
Surely, the IEC had a responsibilty to these people and has failed them…? Surely it is not only the political parties who have failed these people by applying late, but also the IEC who acts a semi-custodian of these peoples rights when it comes to elections?
Of course the IEC will argue that they were only implementing the law, but I feel their job held a far greater burden than merely implementing the law (which was clearly unconstituional afromt he get-go and has been ruled as such?)
Finally, it appears as though the Freedom Front were hoodwinked by President Mothlanthe when he said he would not promulgate the election date, and if I remember correctly, they then (on his word) chose not to seek an injunction against him from doing so…or am I missing something here?
I look forward to the views on the matters I have raised above, and any incorrect facts/opinions pointed out.
Apologies – finger trouble – third last paragraph should read….”….which was clearly unconstitutional from the get-go and has been ruled as such?)