When Mr Jacob Zuma’s lawyer was asked about the origins of the tapes illegally and criminally handed over to the Zuma camp and then used by the NPA to drop charges against Mr Zuma he said that attorney-client priviledge prevented him from saying where the tapes came from.
Interesting.
Who is Mr Hulley’s client whom he is protecting?
Jacob Zuma?
Seems to me it is reasonable to ask whether Mr Hulley gave away the game with this comment. It strongly suggests that the tapes come from Mr Zuma himself. Could that be why there is attorney-client priviledge between the person handing over the tapes and Mr Hulley who received them. Or does Mr Hulley have other clients who have an interest in this case. Can he claim attorney-client priviledge when he was party to a crime and or covering up a crime?
So, when will the police begin investigating this crininal act of handing over and receiving the tapes? Will the NPA ever charge Mr Hulley and or Zuma or any other client of Mr Hulley for this criminal act?
I am sure they will. And I am sure Thabo Mbeki will soon admit that he was wrong on HIV and Aids, Xolela Mangcu will give his shares back to Tokyo Sexwale and the Independent Democrats will win the election.
I don’t know about Xolela Mangcu’s shares or the ID’s prospects in government.
However, you might notice that the enormous South African free antiretroviral programme was planned, developed, funded and executed under the auspices of one President Mbeki (actually it seems to be deteriorating now that Mbeki has been purged).
Oh, you might also have noticed that one of the people at the recent Durban conference who was hyping AIDS vaccines (a blind alley, in my judgement, like flu vaccines, but anyway . . .) was excited about people who are HIV+ but somehow do not develop AIDS. (In other words, a virus is not a syndrome.)
I mention this not because it is relevant to your general topic, but because I am getting sick of ninnies feeling obliged to preface all criticism of Zuma by telling ridiculous, obvious and offensive lies in order to smear the previous president and thus legitimate Zuma’s nefarious plans.
Trapido is bad enough; you don’t have to imitate him.
Prof, shouldnt we at the very least be “brave enough” to disect and condemn McCarthy and Ncguka and secondary to that, how Hulley got hold of the tapes! By the way Prof, to save the little credibility you ve got, STOP being as typically predictable as opposition parties, we ve got enough Zilles and Holomisas to last us a life time. We expect more objective articulations from experts, especially on media.
The trouble, spuy, is that while it is a good idea to dissect the utterances of public officials, it is not a good idea to decide to condemn them before you have done so, so your suggestion that McCarthy and Ngcuka should be condemned at the same time as they are investigated shows how utterly your logical understanding has been perverted by your loyalty to our criminal President.
I suppose it shows how lacking in historical knowledge our national political commentators are, that there have been no remarks on the calls for a witch-hunt against McCarthy!
The more important point which the Prof is making, however, is a simple one: Ngcuka is a powerless private citizen and McCarthy is a relatively junior figure working for an agency which has been disbanded. The National Intelligence Agency is an enormously powerful force, and Hulley is working for the President, who is even more powerful than the NIA (and in control of it) and likely to become more powerful as the other branches of government are systematically eroded.
So, if you were sincerely worried about the health of the South African state (which you are not) then you would be much more worried about Hulley and Zuma’s machinations, which have been covered up, than about the alleged machinations of Ngcuka and McCarthy (which, to the extent to which they exist, have been exposed).
Just one thing to add to your point, MFB–I also worry about the identification of the State with one particular political party– the ANC.
Our ‘criminal President’ has not been found to be a criminal by the courts now, has he MFB? However, your McCarthy and Ncguka are recorded. It doesnt get more red handed than being caught on tape! I mean, what possible justification can be there? None.
Prof
Bearing in mind the newly discovered proof of political conspiracy, do you honestly belive that the NPA would have been able to succesfully resist Zuma’s ‘permanent stay’ application?? Do not forget that the State’s main affidavit in opposition to the ‘permanent stay’ application was deposed to by none other than Mr McCarthy ..or there was also a supporting affidavit by the honourable Mr Ngcuka wherein they vehemently denied political conspiracy and dared Zuma to produce proof thereof!
She served us well, for a while, but may she rest in peace. I will miss the Rule of Law though!
Pierre, ‘n Goeie vraag. Moet die klem van moontlike vervolging nie verskuif word na Hulley nie? Is daar juridies ‘n sterk saak teen sy handeling en uitspraak?
“However, your McCarthy and Ncguka are recorded. It doesnt get more red handed than being caught on tape!”
And pray tell what crime was caught on tape? All McCarthy and Mpshe were doing were discussing the timing of the recharging of Zuma. And the decision of that timing was ultimately taken by Mpshe. The claims of NPA conspiracy are weak.
Meanwhile the NIA is handing over tapes to people under investigation by the state. If there’s a political conspiracy here it’s between the NIA and Zuma!
The NPA kept mum on their policy. There’s still nothing to suggest that the charging of Zuma went beyond the policy. Unless of course some British ruling and a few silly tapes which did not even feature anyone who was involved with charging Zuma are hard evidence.
Sorry the tapes were not McCarthy and Mpshe but McCarthy and Ngcuka.
Spuy,
” we ve got enough Zilles and Holomisas to last us a life time”.
Do I detect in these words an attitude (that is shared by the powers that be within the ANC) that “opposition” is a nuisance and an irritation that would best be done away with?
Or, was the struggle really the gripe that white people had “power” and now it was time for (a select group of) black people to have “power”?
I would like to suggest that for the Mandelas, Luthulis and others of their ilk, the struggles was for JUSTICE, and for the most equitable, just and sustainable form of government, namely CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY.
Now, as irritating as it must be to have an “opposition”, with all of their “negative” comments (many of them possibly quite unfair), and as shocking as the idea must be that one might oneself have to BE the opposition, this is what a constitutional democracy IS.
Without opposition, there is no democracy. Get used to it.
Spuy,
If you read those snippets of the tape transcripts you will notice that these guys (Ngcuka, McCarthy and Khumalo) were trying to stop Zuma from becoming the President because they had their country’s interest at heart. Things like “…save this country from this madness”, and “…sad day for our country…”, show a genuine concern for the country. Their methods were wrong, but their intentions were noble. Don’t you think?
Bongs and Sperm
Is it not disturbing for you that the NIA can hand over materials to a private citizen?
The point is the NIA should of handed all the tapes to the NPA so the NPA could do a proper investigation. instead of handing it to a political party leader……..this is simply dangerous and a national security threat.
I dont expect this to sink in as you 2 clearly do not no anything about law.
as im still waiting for any legal proof that it is legal to distribute top secret material of a president and two public officers to a private citizen……….as far as we all stand this is illegal unless you can prove otherwise but you guys havnt why cos you simply cant.
you guys are on the wrong side of law
and if you are an officer of the court Bongs then I have to say to Pierre I am extremely worried about the quality and level of education of your law schools. Extremely disturbing!!!
From IOL: “A national newspaper had quoted three independent sources identifying Fraser as the one who had passed tapes on to Zuma’s legal team. Hulley has denied it was Fraser who gave him the secret recordings that helped set his client free, though he declines to say who did.” Hmmm, so Fraser did not give the tapes to Hulley? Maybe he gave it to someone else(Zuma?) who then gave it to Hulley. Thus this non-denial denial……
Hi Prof
“There are only really two things I believe in: the constitution and having (responsible) fun.” (previous post)
Come on, Prof. Isn’t it time for a bit of fun then? It’s been a long time since you put something genuinely funny (as opposed to accidentally funny stuff from our politicians). I know Bush has retired so it is a bit more difficult to find material, but it is the long weekend hols, so can’t we have a short break from Zuma, Hlophe et al?
Thanks
Mike, all I m sayind is that pundits Must Not play the role of the opposition in the media, the opposition will play its role itself. It is just down right disturbing n provocative to hear analysts who cant at least attempt to be neutral. My hat goes out to Steven Friedman, Aubrey Matshiqi, Tinyiko Maluleke, Lesiba Tefo and Yes, Sipho Seepe. De Vos can learn a thing or two from these guys- they really know how to balance conflicting views. They would never say kaak things like the courts if “courts are brave enough they ll find in DA s favour”. SIES!
“Maybe he gave it to someone else (Zuma?)”
That story has been doing the rounds for days now. Can’t someone put Hulley et al on a lie detector?
CG, are blind? Stupid? or both? My name is SPUY you idiotó. Have you decided to join that moron Chris-ass McDaniel who calls me all names his eghead brings to mind now. Typical “gee vir hulle name” apartheid style! For the bloody last time, SPUY is my real name idiotós, make a mockery of your small balls if you want sum humour – morons!
And now ladies and gentlemen : the official “shoot the messenger thread”.
“And I am sure Thabo Mbeki will soon admit that he was wrong on HIV and Aids,”
And I’m sure that PdV will soon admit that he was wrong on the “independence” of the NPA and the Scorpions under Ngcuka and McCarthy.
“And I’m sure that PdV will soon admit that he was wrong on the “independence” of the NPA and the Scorpions under Ngcuka and McCarthy.”
Is that the same NPA under Ngcuka that didn’t bring charges against Zuma?
Spuy perhaps you should read your own post and consider taking your own advice, which is very good advice in general.
My personal theory is that Hulley was told to be the fall guy – came out with the tapes, will go to jail for something or the other to appease the masses, and then be released on parole for having a headache within a week or two.
zuma must b punishd 4crimes he commited.cosatu must stop using our money 2pay 4zumas legal team
HulleyZuma!
In 1977, Terence Hawkes, then Senior Lecturer in English at University College, Cardiff, Wales, wrote: “Macbeth has increasingly impressed twentieth century critics as a play with a particularly modern bearing.” And beyond, I append.
Nelson Mandela contains elements that the 21st century experience repeatedly recognizes and responds to. We might begin to account for this phenomena by locating the date and place for this observation; 11 February 1990, Polsmoor Prison, South Africa; the beginning of that vast and complex process of political development from which the modern world was to emerge. Much of Mandela’s hold on us possibly derives from the oblique but penetrative insights he offers into the nature of the world as judged by the standards of his respected peers. The rhythms, the phrases, the metaphors seem to embody an established and accepted scheme of values, a sense of even-handedness, just dispensation operating in human affairs and an organic authenticated harmony pertaining to humanity and the natural world. Mandela’s presence as the President of South Africa seemed to presage the final, peaceful union of whites and non-whites and he seemed to represent and embody that final knitting together of the peoples of South Africa and to offer a solution to many of the problems facing the world.
The general diagnoses that the new world created by Mandela at its commencement seems particularly apt to those who now sense that our life in South Africa is falling into the sear. But maybe we can be more specific. On the 9th September 2010, Patricia de Lille of the Independent Democrats revealed in Parliament a cache of information containing enough evidence to blow the president, the deputy president, his ministers, financial advisors and the lawful government of the entire state sky high. It would be difficult to overestimate the shock this discovery generated amongst the population at large. The whole corrupt armsdeal affair instantly found itself raised to the level of distress by a propaganda rapidly instigated by the ANC and their advisors and it quickly acquired dimensions far beyond the immediate facts at issue. One of the central concerns is of course the disunity and disorder the armsdeal brings to South Africa and the ANC has made confusion its masterpiece. At its most fundamental level, the armsdeal results in the overthrow of a social structure based on the principles of disorder replacing order. Whereas once we had a social order striving for honour, love, obedience, friends, our imagery now recurrently presents South Africa as sick, incapacitated, wholly diseased.
But we may be more precise. It has often been remarked in history that political corruption eventually takes its toll on the public currency of words themselves. The debased language of the ANC/SACP alliance offers only the most recent examples of a process whereby degeneration in the conduct of public affairs seems ineluctably to transmit itself to the language in which those affairs are conducted. The changes that supersede the language of Mandela is no less explicit; the absence of cohesion in disjointed utterance is deliberate in its obfuscation, its ambiguity, its concern to mislead rather than to inform and the language demands that we judge it to be deliberate and fundamentally subversive. It seeks to overturn that ordering of the world which every society makes and, perceiving its own version of ‘natural’, takes as the basis of normality: Foul is fair and fair is foul, aptly represents its principal objective. So committed a pursuit of disorder will inevitably involve every aspect of language. Forceful incantatory rhythms enable a new and disturbing arrangement of logic to be asserted over an older accredited one, so that random phrases with no natural association, find themselves yoked together by a kind of prosodic violence and thereby assigned a new and shocking status as truth:
When politicians are asked how they can waste so much money when the ideals they fought for are disdained by their actions their incantation generates a cognate degradation: It is not against the law.
Corruption committed by a state inevitably also involves corruption of the language, dealt at length in the ANC/SACP’s use of verbal double-dealing, technically
termed, ‘equivocation’. In their vain actions the ANC/SACP admit that they consider it perfectly acceptable to equivocate and, as a result, equivocation has rapidly and popularly become almost a badge of subversion. It is important to realize that the question is not one of simply ‘lying’. Equivocation of the type used by the ANC/SACP alliance involves the deliberate and premeditated manipulation of language in order to obscure the truth and so to strike at the foundations of the entire country. When that country is also by and large illiterate, and thus dependent more than we can imagine on face-to-face colloquy as the repository of truth and certainty, the crime seems even more fundamental, able to affect the debasement of a whole way of life. In our theologically centered society we may readily label the behavior devilish and there is no doubt that the hellish quality of their crime derives from the extent to which they reduce language in a way that can justly be described as:
Juggling fiends
HulleyZuma Hallelujah
Palter base in double sense
In any community, language and a way of life have an intricate connection. In the ANC/SACP alliance, the principal of equivocation can be seen to extend itself throughout the whole structure of society in which all values are overturned. Thus even so basic an important a distinction as the honour between men and women comes to acquire an equivocal dimension, becoming blurred and perverted by the undiminished sexual appetite of a ‘moral’ president; and here equivocation reaches its final reduction when man is reduced to the level of a beast, so remorselessly that it must rank as certainly the most terrible of degradations to observe publically from across the world.
The SACP-ANC
Is but a walking shadow, a sinful player
That struts and frets their hour upon a stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Of Glory turned to Trick, full of sound and fury,
Imploding into vanished whimper
Yet, in the familiar cycle of order-disorder-order, rehabilitation of a country is inevitable and the devise that finally reverses the reductive process exploits a dramatic mode in order to do so. And who or whom, we ask, would that be? That, my dear friend, is what we are all earnestly and urgently waiting for.
I see thee compass’d with thy kindom’s pearl
And a’loud and welcome
Speak our salutations