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	<title>Comments on: Did the President lie about his &#8220;wives&#8221;?</title>
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	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:20:51 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24953</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24953</guid>
		<description>Michael Osborne says:
February 7, 2010 at 7:39 am

&quot;it is a little absurd to be hounding the President for violating the norms of middle class sexual morality.&quot;

The absurd then may define the road ahead.

&quot;Publicly, the ruling African National Congress has backed the 67-year-old but in private senior party members feel the latest in a long line of sexual scandals is the &quot;last straw&quot;.

&quot;He is becoming too much of a liability to the party and his image is damaging,&quot; a member of the ANC&#039;s national executive committee, who did not want to be named, told Reuters. &quot;Polygamy and promiscuity is not the same thing.&quot;

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6170A120100208</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Osborne says:<br />
February 7, 2010 at 7:39 am</p>
<p>&#8220;it is a little absurd to be hounding the President for violating the norms of middle class sexual morality.&#8221;</p>
<p>The absurd then may define the road ahead.</p>
<p>&#8220;Publicly, the ruling African National Congress has backed the 67-year-old but in private senior party members feel the latest in a long line of sexual scandals is the &#8220;last straw&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;He is becoming too much of a liability to the party and his image is damaging,&#8221; a member of the ANC&#8217;s national executive committee, who did not want to be named, told Reuters. &#8220;Polygamy and promiscuity is not the same thing.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6170A120100208" rel="nofollow">http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6170A120100208</a></p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24944</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24944</guid>
		<description>I do not think it is especially contentious to claim that Zuma enjoyed a large measure of political goodwill. And if recent developments do not prove to be misleading, it could be that Zuma has finally made a mistake that has exhausted that goodwill. 

One question is whether one can extract from the freshest Zuma scandal a fairly unsophisticated theory of present-day South African politics. I tend to think so. Actually, this theory is something which many South Africans have thought about for a good long while: support for politicians in this country is often not predicated on the individual&#039;s contribution to governance. That support is generally based on misguided goodwill. That goodwill can serve as a veil of sorts - a veil which actually obscures a good deal of disgruntlement. And a risk which some disastrously ineffectual political figures run is that they could (a) make a fatal mistake that would exhaust all of that wrongheaded goodwill and (b), those figures, given their incompetence, would then have no defence against an indignant electorate. 

So maybe Zuma’s holiday is finally over. Maybe he has finally given the ordinary man on the street an ordinary enough reason to say what Joe Bloggs has longed to say for some while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not think it is especially contentious to claim that Zuma enjoyed a large measure of political goodwill. And if recent developments do not prove to be misleading, it could be that Zuma has finally made a mistake that has exhausted that goodwill. </p>
<p>One question is whether one can extract from the freshest Zuma scandal a fairly unsophisticated theory of present-day South African politics. I tend to think so. Actually, this theory is something which many South Africans have thought about for a good long while: support for politicians in this country is often not predicated on the individual&#8217;s contribution to governance. That support is generally based on misguided goodwill. That goodwill can serve as a veil of sorts &#8211; a veil which actually obscures a good deal of disgruntlement. And a risk which some disastrously ineffectual political figures run is that they could (a) make a fatal mistake that would exhaust all of that wrongheaded goodwill and (b), those figures, given their incompetence, would then have no defence against an indignant electorate. </p>
<p>So maybe Zuma’s holiday is finally over. Maybe he has finally given the ordinary man on the street an ordinary enough reason to say what Joe Bloggs has longed to say for some while.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24943</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24943</guid>
		<description>Pierre De Vos says:
February 8, 2010 at 6:51 am

How&#039;s this for comedy?

&quot;I want you to note down the commitments we are going to be making, so that you will be able to ask us: &#039;Why are you not doing what you said you are going to do?&#039;,&quot; he said. (http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-02-08-zuma-appeals-for-unity-ahead-of-state-nation)

The question that is appropriate to ask our President would be &quot;Why are you doing what you said you are not going to do?&quot;

But to address your comment - the &quot;latent uneasiness&quot; as I see it, has to do less with the adverse issues and more to do with the slow pace of (or even lack of) progress on the important areas and the distinct lack of decisive leadership on several obvious and important fronts.

The important State of the Nation address on Thursday was intended also to be a tribute to Nelson Mandela - the nation&#039;s (even the international community&#039;s) readiness to receive that address has been neutered by the simple zip that refuses to stay closed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pierre De Vos says:<br />
February 8, 2010 at 6:51 am</p>
<p>How&#8217;s this for comedy?</p>
<p>&#8220;I want you to note down the commitments we are going to be making, so that you will be able to ask us: &#8216;Why are you not doing what you said you are going to do?&#8217;,&#8221; he said. (<a href="http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-02-08-zuma-appeals-for-unity-ahead-of-state-nation" rel="nofollow">http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-02-08-zuma-appeals-for-unity-ahead-of-state-nation</a>)</p>
<p>The question that is appropriate to ask our President would be &#8220;Why are you doing what you said you are not going to do?&#8221;</p>
<p>But to address your comment &#8211; the &#8220;latent uneasiness&#8221; as I see it, has to do less with the adverse issues and more to do with the slow pace of (or even lack of) progress on the important areas and the distinct lack of decisive leadership on several obvious and important fronts.</p>
<p>The important State of the Nation address on Thursday was intended also to be a tribute to Nelson Mandela &#8211; the nation&#8217;s (even the international community&#8217;s) readiness to receive that address has been neutered by the simple zip that refuses to stay closed.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre De Vos</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24941</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre De Vos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 04:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24941</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting debate. I suspect if there was not some latent uneasiness about JZ (the friendship with Shaik, the corruption charges, the rape trial, the dropping of charges the appointment of Simelane etc etc) people might have not reacted the way they did. Suddenly this one thing has given everyone permission to express their fears and embarrasment with the President which was otherwise difficult to express. And then there is the CHarlotte Bauer theory that many people feel JZ has disrespected their culture by going beyond what a &quot;good&quot; traditionalist is supposed to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting debate. I suspect if there was not some latent uneasiness about JZ (the friendship with Shaik, the corruption charges, the rape trial, the dropping of charges the appointment of Simelane etc etc) people might have not reacted the way they did. Suddenly this one thing has given everyone permission to express their fears and embarrasment with the President which was otherwise difficult to express. And then there is the CHarlotte Bauer theory that many people feel JZ has disrespected their culture by going beyond what a &#8220;good&#8221; traditionalist is supposed to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24937</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24937</guid>
		<description>I accept that there are better grounds for concluding that Zuma is not worthy of the office he currently occupies than the bases doing the rounds right now. For instance, and as Michael suggests, it would have spoken better of the ANC-partisan electorate had they kicked up a big stink about the Simelane appointment as it was (a) brazenly self-serving (b) almost certainly unlawful and (c) gravely and insidiously harmful. But that being said, it could ultimately be in the interests of our country for the press to continue pursuing this image-based attack on Zuma quite vigorously. And the two-faceted reason for that is pretty simple: first, while hoi polloi could probably care less about a decision that impairs the constitutionally contemplated independence of a core institution such as the NPA, he may well be incensed by the idea of the president acting in a manner that contradicts his very public professions on highly topical scores. And secondly, the criticisms that are presently being directed to Zuma on the one hand, and the Simelane appointment on the other, communicate the same message about the president: he is thoroughly self-serving. So personally I don&#039;t much care which one exposes him as such to that portion of the electorate that needs to see this bloke for who he truly is: a lecherous sexist who has not the run of (or the first clue about the workings of) his administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I accept that there are better grounds for concluding that Zuma is not worthy of the office he currently occupies than the bases doing the rounds right now. For instance, and as Michael suggests, it would have spoken better of the ANC-partisan electorate had they kicked up a big stink about the Simelane appointment as it was (a) brazenly self-serving (b) almost certainly unlawful and (c) gravely and insidiously harmful. But that being said, it could ultimately be in the interests of our country for the press to continue pursuing this image-based attack on Zuma quite vigorously. And the two-faceted reason for that is pretty simple: first, while hoi polloi could probably care less about a decision that impairs the constitutionally contemplated independence of a core institution such as the NPA, he may well be incensed by the idea of the president acting in a manner that contradicts his very public professions on highly topical scores. And secondly, the criticisms that are presently being directed to Zuma on the one hand, and the Simelane appointment on the other, communicate the same message about the president: he is thoroughly self-serving. So personally I don&#8217;t much care which one exposes him as such to that portion of the electorate that needs to see this bloke for who he truly is: a lecherous sexist who has not the run of (or the first clue about the workings of) his administration.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24933</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 10:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24933</guid>
		<description>@ Michael - the rock slide seems to have started.

&quot;The comment follows a Rapport newspaper report that new legal grounds were considered for the release of Eugene de Kock and Schabir Shaik.

&quot;An anonymous ANC source told the newspaper that &quot;selective prosecution&quot; would be cited as grounds for pardon.

&quot;According to this principle, it is unfair that the individuals were convicted alone even though they acted with accomplices. They should therefore be released.&quot;

http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/article295905.ece</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Michael &#8211; the rock slide seems to have started.</p>
<p>&#8220;The comment follows a Rapport newspaper report that new legal grounds were considered for the release of Eugene de Kock and Schabir Shaik.</p>
<p>&#8220;An anonymous ANC source told the newspaper that &#8220;selective prosecution&#8221; would be cited as grounds for pardon.</p>
<p>&#8220;According to this principle, it is unfair that the individuals were convicted alone even though they acted with accomplices. They should therefore be released.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/article295905.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/article295905.ece</a></p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24927</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 06:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24927</guid>
		<description>Michael Osborne says:
February 7, 2010 at 7:39 am

The other way that President Zuma can retake control of the ANC and the country is by striking at the head of the beast. 

He did that most effectively in his bid to become ANC President.

The beast is now the &quot;out of control&quot; characters.

I wonder how long the leash on young Julius is - if he cuts that leash the the focus will shift away from our president entirely and give him time to regroup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Osborne says:<br />
February 7, 2010 at 7:39 am</p>
<p>The other way that President Zuma can retake control of the ANC and the country is by striking at the head of the beast. </p>
<p>He did that most effectively in his bid to become ANC President.</p>
<p>The beast is now the &#8220;out of control&#8221; characters.</p>
<p>I wonder how long the leash on young Julius is &#8211; if he cuts that leash the the focus will shift away from our president entirely and give him time to regroup.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Osborne</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24925</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Osborne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24925</guid>
		<description>OK, Maggs, I take your point; if one approaches this issue from a perspective within the movement, JZ, arguably, must resign now.

But you will understand that, to the extent one views the appointment of Mr Simelane as an atrocity against the rule of law, it is a little absurd to be hounding the President for violating the norms of middle class sexual morality. 

A bit like condemning George Bush for his bad table manners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Maggs, I take your point; if one approaches this issue from a perspective within the movement, JZ, arguably, must resign now.</p>
<p>But you will understand that, to the extent one views the appointment of Mr Simelane as an atrocity against the rule of law, it is a little absurd to be hounding the President for violating the norms of middle class sexual morality. </p>
<p>A bit like condemning George Bush for his bad table manners.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24924</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24924</guid>
		<description>Michael Osborne says:
February 6, 2010 at 22:04 pm

&quot;I get the impression that media-whipped moralism is being manipulated by JZ’s enemies within the movement&quot;.

Of course it is.

Therein lies the problem. His &quot;enemies&quot; within the movement (there must be many) are the real and present danger.

At this time in our history, the country and the ANC needs a leader who is very strong, who is able to lead us through the morass of political challenges that are current and topical.

&quot;Working together, we can do more&quot; is what the ANC said during its election campaign. That&#039;s not happening, instead there are several storms brewing within the ANC and between its alliance partners.

These are not insurmountable, but effective leadership is lacking - President Zuma, having compromised himself (and who knows what more may be lurking) is not up to the task, nor is there a way of restoring his political stature.

Given all that has happened and the allowances made for our President, there is simply no way of the ANC applying its disciplinary processes to any of its members, no matter how extreme their action may be.

Here&#039;s another one that I sense is going to create political (maybe even civil) turmoil). President Zuma declined parole (even reprieve) of more than 200 IFP members, probably for good reason. If he now, as is reportedly planned, paroles Eugene de Kok/Shabir Shaik, it&#039;s highly probable that the goodwill and empathy that for example led to the massive support in KZN in particular will dissipate. 

If that happens, the question will be asked &quot;if he can release the worst of apartheid&#039;s killers and his friend, why not one of &#039;our own&#039;?&quot;.

If he does not, Shaik has made it plain that he is not going down alone, some people that Zuma now has in his inner circle are not going to be happy with that.

I reckon that this storm presents our President the ideal opportunity to quit while ahead - he ought to take it, retire gracefully and be remembered as a true champion. It will serve him well to remember that former President Mandela for all his stature &quot;retired&quot; early as did former President Mbeki. 

If Zuma is &quot;recalled&quot; before the end of his term his political carcass will be fed to the hyenas. And the people he has deployed to key CJ institutions are not the kind that will stand by the underdog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Osborne says:<br />
February 6, 2010 at 22:04 pm</p>
<p>&#8220;I get the impression that media-whipped moralism is being manipulated by JZ’s enemies within the movement&#8221;.</p>
<p>Of course it is.</p>
<p>Therein lies the problem. His &#8220;enemies&#8221; within the movement (there must be many) are the real and present danger.</p>
<p>At this time in our history, the country and the ANC needs a leader who is very strong, who is able to lead us through the morass of political challenges that are current and topical.</p>
<p>&#8220;Working together, we can do more&#8221; is what the ANC said during its election campaign. That&#8217;s not happening, instead there are several storms brewing within the ANC and between its alliance partners.</p>
<p>These are not insurmountable, but effective leadership is lacking &#8211; President Zuma, having compromised himself (and who knows what more may be lurking) is not up to the task, nor is there a way of restoring his political stature.</p>
<p>Given all that has happened and the allowances made for our President, there is simply no way of the ANC applying its disciplinary processes to any of its members, no matter how extreme their action may be.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s another one that I sense is going to create political (maybe even civil) turmoil). President Zuma declined parole (even reprieve) of more than 200 IFP members, probably for good reason. If he now, as is reportedly planned, paroles Eugene de Kok/Shabir Shaik, it&#8217;s highly probable that the goodwill and empathy that for example led to the massive support in KZN in particular will dissipate. </p>
<p>If that happens, the question will be asked &#8220;if he can release the worst of apartheid&#8217;s killers and his friend, why not one of &#8216;our own&#8217;?&#8221;.</p>
<p>If he does not, Shaik has made it plain that he is not going down alone, some people that Zuma now has in his inner circle are not going to be happy with that.</p>
<p>I reckon that this storm presents our President the ideal opportunity to quit while ahead &#8211; he ought to take it, retire gracefully and be remembered as a true champion. It will serve him well to remember that former President Mandela for all his stature &#8220;retired&#8221; early as did former President Mbeki. </p>
<p>If Zuma is &#8220;recalled&#8221; before the end of his term his political carcass will be fed to the hyenas. And the people he has deployed to key CJ institutions are not the kind that will stand by the underdog.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Osborne</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/did-the-president-lie-about-his-wives/#comment-24919</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Osborne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1914#comment-24919</guid>
		<description>Am I though the only fool in the land (OK, apart from my brother Julius), who thinks this scandal is utterly overblown?  I get the impression that media-whipped moralism is being manipulated by JZ&#039;s enemies within the movement.

There are much, much better, reasons, my dear Maggs, to want JZ to out.  A single Simelane is worth 1000 babies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I though the only fool in the land (OK, apart from my brother Julius), who thinks this scandal is utterly overblown?  I get the impression that media-whipped moralism is being manipulated by JZ&#8217;s enemies within the movement.</p>
<p>There are much, much better, reasons, my dear Maggs, to want JZ to out.  A single Simelane is worth 1000 babies.</p>
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