I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read yesterday that the Democratic Alliance has warned that politicising the office of the Public Protector undermined the “brilliant” work it has done. The Cape Times reported that the DA’s defence of Adv Thuli Madonsela comes in the wake of an attack on her by the ANC Youth League (ANCYL) and COPE’s reference to her office as a “toothless wonder” after she found Communications Minister Siphiwe Nyanda guilty of breaching the Executive Members’ Code of Ethics by publicly defending axed Transnet Freight Rail boss Siyabonga Gama.
The ANCYL – in its usual hysterical way – lashed out at Madonsela for finding Nyanda guilty of being “truthful” and questioned whether she was protecting the public, or merely “parroting misperceptions of opposition parties”. (This defense of Nyanda is interesting because it suggests that the tenderpreneurs of the ANCYL and the tenderpreneurs in cabinet were watching each others backs.) DA MP and Justice and Constitutional Development spokesperson Natasha Michael said the ANC had “systematically ignored” the role played by the Public Protector. It praised Madonsela for her investigations and warned political parties not to interfere.
The sentiments expressed by Michael are of course laudable and correct. Political parties should not interfere with the work of Chapter 9 institutions (or courts) and they should not try to politicise the decisions of these institutions for short term political gain. This is a principled and constitutionally honourable position to take. But I suspect Michael did not clear this statement with her leader, Helen Zille, who seems to hold a different view.
In the wake of a report by the Human Rights Commission into the Western Cape toilet saga, Zille did exactly what Michael says political parties should not do: she questioned the political motives of a Chapter 9 institution and claimed that the Human Rights Commission was being abused as part of a dark conspiracy to tarnish the good name (if any) of the DA, stating as follows:
Three years ago when the City was locked in a make-or-break battle with the Province over the unconstitutional Erasmus Commission, Professor Pierre de Vos took me to task for saying: “some judges allow themselves to be used and, unfortunately, (Judge) Nathan Erasmus is one of them.” Today, I repeat that in relation to the SA Human Rights Commission: Some Chapter Nine institutions allow themselves to be abused and, unfortunately, the SA Human Rights Commission is one of them.
Instead of sticking to a factual and legal argument about why the SAHRC report might be flawed (something she had every right to do), she attacked the integrity of the Commission to try and deflect attention from the extremely embarrasing saga about open toilets. It is so much easier to attack the messenger than to deal with the substantive issues: the DA equivalent of “pulling the race card”.
Sadly, this is part of a broader pattern in which the DA in general and its leader in particular seem to have one standard for the ANC and other political parties and another standard for itself. It is as if the DA believes that it is exempt from the same standards it holds others to because it believes it is the only party who knows what is best for everyone (a rather patronising view) and that it is therefore the only party who can be trusted without having to be held to the general principles on which a functioning democracy is based. It thus sees itself being exempt from the duty to honour the principles it claims to espouse. “Do as we say, not as we do,” seems to be the DA motto.
Given our history and given the racial profile of the DA, one would be forgiven for concluding that the DA believes only white people can be trusted, that white people therefore do not have to follow general principles of constitutional democracy and good governance, and that white people are therefore allowed to deal with each situation on its own merits without having to stick to the rules it claims to respect and honour. Black people, on the other hand, must be held to a higher standard because they are inherently unprincipled and corrupt enemies of democracy.
When Gwede Mantashe attacked judges of the Constitutional Court as counter-revolutionaries, the DA rightly criticised this because the ANC leader was launching a personal attack on judges of the highest court and was undermining respect for the judiciary. But when The Dear Leader, Helen Zille, attacked the integrity of Judge Nathan Erasmus, a High Court judge, thus undermining respect for the judiciary herself, we were supposed to cheer her on. She argued that, given the facts, she had every reason to question the integrity of a judge. And besides, so Zille argued, the High Court had declared the Erasmus commission unlawful and her attack was therefore justified.
This is, of course, nonsense. The High Court (per Swain J) never found that Erasmus had allowed himself to be used by the ANC (as Zille had implied) and the High Court did not question the integrity or motives of Judge Erasmus. In fact, although Judge Swain found that the then Premier had acted with an ulterior purpose in appointing the Commission, he explicitly exonerated Judge Erasmus stating: “I wish to make it absolutely clear that I do not suggest that Erasmus J was in any way a party to such conduct“.
The High Court - re-interpreting the jurisprudence of the Constitutional Court in a rather “innovative” manner – did find that a judge should not have agreed to chair the commission, but the court made it clear that no ulterior purpose (as alleged by Zille) was present on the part of the judge. This fact was lost in the post judgment spin by Zille and the DA sycophants.
What was also lost was that the DA and Zille had actually not pressed the point before the court at all that Erasmus personally was allowing himself to be used or was biased. In fact, judge Swain explicitly found that he did not have to answer this question. The High Court therefore did not exonerate Zille regarding her personal attack on Erasmus as the matter was not pursued before the court by the DA lawyers (although it was raised initially). Lawyers are not stupid so they probably knew that there was no chance that a court would endorse Zille’s scurrilous attack on a sitting judge.
Of course, courts often find that other judges had erred, but this does not give anyone the right to call into question the integrity of the judge whose decision was found wanting by another court. Down that road lies anarchy and a complete disrespect for the judiciary.
Similarly, after the High Court had found in favour of Zuma in his case to have the search and seizure warrants declared unlawful, the decision was finally overturned by the Constitutional Court. This did not allow either Mantashe or anyone else to call into question the integrity of the High Court judges or the judges of the Constitutional Court. Neither the High Court nor the Constitutional Court had found that any judge involved in the case had acted like counter-revolutionaries, so Mantashe had no right to make that allegation. Like Zille, he was attacking and politicising one of the three branches of our democracy. Unlike Zille, he has not continued to defend the indefensible.
And of course, when serious allegations of wrongdoing or criminal activity by ANC leaders surface, the DA – once again, rightly, in my opinion - demand that the affected leader should be suspended or should step aside until such time as the allegations have been dealt with or the criminal case concluded. But when a DA MP was charged two weeks ago with raping a young woman, the DA blithely stated that it had no reason not to believe the denials of its MP, that the MP is innocent until proven guilty, and therefore that the DA would not suspend that MP.
The same pattern repeats itself over and over again. It tarnishes the name of the DA (to the extent that it has a name) as it opens the party to charges of hypocrisy and, worse, racism. It reflects a kind of arrogance that is often associated with someone who has been the Baas his or her whole life and is used to being the Baas and to tell others what to do and how to behave while not having to follow suit. “We are always right, we are always principled, therefore we do not have to follow the same principles we claim to hold so dear and demand others respect.”
No wonder the vast majority of black people (and most of the sensible white people I know) refuse to vote for the DA – despite the corruption and maladministration of many ANC led municipalities and provinces. Who wants to be lorded over by such a bunch of self-righteous and unprincipled hypocrites?
This is my biggest gripe with the official opposition: a completely different tune is sung depending on who is involved. The DA’s lack of a clear and constant vision frustrates me no end.
Prof, you can expect another call from a very, very upset Gareth… http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/gareth-is-very-very-cross/
You’ve hit the nail on the head. This is exactly why I don’t vote for DA. DA are unfortunately very hypocritical.
Its a shame that they carry on with this attitude. I think they have had great opportunities to promote the party as a party for everyone. But they keep messing things up, such as Zille’s all male cabinet or the toilets fiasco.
Yes, they have been within their rights, but seem to have lost sight of the big picture. The feel good PR after winning WP went out the window when Zille picked an all male cabinet. It was so silly, gave the ANC ammunition and gave themselves a bit of a bad image. Imagine what a PR triumph it would have been if they had picked a diverse cabinet.
As far as the toilet thing goes. I thought it was another miss from the DA. Instead of moaning and groaning about it, they should have applied some common sense. Why didn’t they try and do something different like ask businesses to sponsor new toilets or something similar. It would have been brilliant PR again, imagine DA being able to say “Look what we’ve done for the townships.” But no, they played into the hands of the ANCYL.
Whats annoying is that it appears to be really simple things that the DA messes up. It could really have been different, but when you screw up toilets you wonder why they struggle to attract black voters. Before someone pulls up the recent ward wins by the DA, yes they are attracting some voters. But they are getting more of the vote due to low voter attendance.
The problem is, who do I vote for? I don’t want to vote for ANC or the DA, I’m left with all the smaller parties who are quite simply ineffectual and not worth a vote! So who do I vote for?!!!
Well said prof.
Mostly I agree with the DA manifesto, policies and philosophy, but I would not vote for them precisely because of the reasons you mentioned.
Unfortunately there is no alternative in South Africa. The ANC is clearly inept and corrupt, the DA hypocritical, COPE is falling apart, and VF & IFP are relics that shouldn’t exist in post-94 South Africa.
oh what to do?
Prof, I cannot argue with you on the issues of hypocrisy, however, I cannot understand how you manage to bring this entire issue around to racism.
The ANCYL are accusing a High Court Judge of delivering a “drunken” ruling and a lack of understanding of the ANCYL. Would it be just as acceptable to draw an inference that their attack on the judiciary is because they are Black and therefore ignorant?
As a member of the DA, even I find it frustrating when the leadership take a moral stance on one issue and then a different stance on a similar issue, depending on the parties involved. However, this is not endemic to the DA, nor is it endemic to white people. The ANC are just as guilty of this.
To all those who are at odds as to who to vote for, I suggest you make a selfish decision. The local government elections allow you to vote for the person most likely to benefit you directly in terms of service delivery. Make them earn your vote and if they fail, once elected, hold them accountable.
Democracy is not about blind loyalty to a party. It is about having an accountable government that serves the people. You will never agree with any party wholeheartedly, but vote for the one that best serves your interests.
http://www.chronicle.com/article/Save-the-World-on-Your-Own/45335 :
A prominent member of the academic left and a distinguished Milton scholar, Stanley Fish, has written an article in the Chronicle of Higher Education in which he stresses the importance of drawing the line between political attitudinizing and scholarly discourse. His article was titled, “Save The World On Your Own Time,”[19] and in it, he cautioned academics about getting involved as academics in moral and political issues such as the war on terror. In a paradoxical summary statement he warned: “It is immoral for academics or academic institutions to proclaim moral views.” The reason, according to Fish, was provided long ago in a faculty report to the president of the University of Chicago. “The report declares that the university exists ‘only for the limited…purposes of teaching and research,’” Fish wrote. “Since the university is a community only for those limited and distinctive purposes, it is a community which cannot take collective action on the issues of the day without endangering the conditions for its existence and effectiveness.”
The conclusion Professor Fish drew was straightforward: “Teachers should teach their subjects. They should not teach peace or war or freedom or diversity or uniformity or nationalism or anti-nationalism or any other agenda that might properly be taught by a political leader or a talk-show host. Of course they should teach about such subjects, something very different from urging them as commitments – when they are part of the history or philosophy or literature or sociology that is being studied. The only advocacy that should go on in the classroom is the advocacy of what James Murphy has identified as the intellectual virtues, ‘thoroughness, perseverance, intellectual honesty,’ all components of the cardinal academic virtue of being ‘conscientious in the pursuit of truth.’” (emphasis added)
Lol. More kneejerk anti-DA posts from Prof de Vos. Two things: first, I’m confused though when you say “given the racial profile of the DA, one would be forgiven for concluding that the DA believes only white people can be trusted..”. But Markinor says the DA is — by far — the most racially diverse party in the country. Far more so than the ANC or COPE. Second, when you’re in a hole, stop digging. You were wrong on the Erasmus comission, and Zille was right. So quit trying to argue that you were, in fact, right.
Just two quick points: for a start, while I’ll heartily commend the DA for the good work it does, the Professor’s claim of its hypocrisy seems tenable and the party might want to look into it. Secondly, I’m rather less sure of the second indictment that the Professor levels against the DA. That indictment boils down to largely this: in the light of our country’s history, the DA’s apparent hypocrisy smacks of racism. It does so inasmuch as the implicit claim communicated by that hypocrisy, on the Professor’s logic, is that whites are inherently principled, good and trustworthy (and thus excused from strict adherence to relevant rules) whereas blacks are not. I think this accusation is a little unfair given that the instances of DA hypocrisy do not necessarily stem from or indicate racism. That is, they could be based on the view that it is not black people generally who are untrustworthy – which, I feel I should add, would be a ridiculous position. Rather, those instances of hypocrisy could owe their origin to the view that it is the general body of ANC membership, across the race-board, which is untrustworthy. Now that foundation obviously does not excuse the double standards. But what it does do is call into question whether the cases of hypocrisy are imputable to racism.
@ Pierre – are you wearing your thick skin this week?
Samantha says:
July 29, 2010 at 13:45 pm
“However, this is not endemic to the DA, nor is it endemic to white people”.
Not endemic?
How about the positions on the death penalty or equalisation of rates?
Or corruption or cronyism?
When you say that the “ANC are just as guilty of this” – perhaps you miss the part that the ANC does not deny that it’s people have diverse views and is ready willing and able to debate the sometimes diametrically opposed views to shape it’s policies and positions.
It does not pretend that the outrageous statements of, for example the ANCYL members, are anything less than outrageous.
You seem to suggest that in action, the DA is the equal and opposite of the ANC, how is it then regarded as a better alternative to the ANC?
Of course if the only way for DA supporters to defend it, is by attacking the ANC, then they certainly have a lot wanting.
When I vote DA, I’m only voting for effective opposition. I don’t want the ANC to fail, because then SA will fail, at least for a decade or two. I vote DA for an opposition to try keep the ANC on the straight and narrow. We’re talking politicians – there’s something wrong with all of them, perhaps corrupt, perhaps hypocritical.
Debra, the DA is the party who are supported by the vast majority of white South Africans. Given our history – remember apartheid for whom no white person ever voted; they must have rigged the elections ala Mugabe all those years – a party whose support and membership is still majority white will therefore be scrutinised extra carefully by the previously oppressed majority for signs of racial arrogance. Whether the party is racist or not, is really besides the point: it is how their actions will be perceived by the majority whose votes it needs if it wants to grow. This is not very difficult to understand, surely?
Second, I note you do not engage at all with the substance of my post on Erasmus. You merely make an assertion that I was wrong without providing any argument or proof or without trying to refute the (rather carefully drafted) points I made. You fail to argue, for example, that I have fabricated the underlined quote from Judge Swain. In the absence of such claims and arguments the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that you have no arguments and that, in effect, you agree with me.
What are you on about Prof??
All the political parties are hypocritical at some point for heavens sake (they all suck in my opinion in case you were wondering)!
But in my opinion Zille’s attack on Erasmus pales into comparison to the concerted attacks by the ANC on the judiciary as whole, individual judges and prosecuting authorities throughout the Jacob Zuma trials. This coming from the people in power who can corrupt the system – and corrupt it they are (whilst preaching respect for the rule of law with a straight face!) with Mpshe, Simelane, Shaik, Hlope etc. Far more sinister and real than anything the DA could conjure up!
Perhaps it is you who hold the ANC and DA to different standards? High standards for the DA and low standards for the ANC – check that mirror, Prof? Does the “white” party have to out-perform the “black” party by 100000% to be OK in your books, Prof? Cetainly appears so from your article.
Besides, on the toilet saga the ANC was found wanting badly when the final facts were exposed (Zille’s final expose not being challenged at all) – nothing from you on that. Nothing from you on the ANC’s very own toilet saga (see City Press) where it has left unenclosed toilets for over 9 (nine) years in some settlements.
But that’s OK because its the ANC and their astounding hypocrisy is tenable I presume?
When it comes to “a bunch of self-righteous and unprincipled hypocrites” I don’t think the DA has a patch on the ANC.
The DA might is certainly not the greatest thing since sliced bread but I’m watching for effective governance. If the WC outperforms the rest of the provinces then I’ll vote for a hypocritical performer rather than a non-performing hypocrit.
For all those looking to scapegoat the ANC to escape Pierre’s critique, here’s how it should be done :
“ANC releases brutal leadership review
Conference documents out for debate
Jul 29, 2010 2:11 PM | By Brendan Boyle – Politics LIVE
The ANC takes a hard look at itself in documents released ahead of its national general conference in September. Corruption and careerism are in the firing line.”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/incoming/article576096.ece/ANC-releases-brutal-leadership-review
And that, not ducking it’s head in the sand when confronted, is what makes the ANC the most powerful political force in South Africa, Africa and across the entire world.
Maggs
Its one thing to publish a “hard-hitting” review.
Unfortunately I’ll only believe the ANC when I see action being taken.
Action talks and the ANC has no record on doing anything unless the perp is out of favour with the elite.
Zoo Keeper says:
July 29, 2010 at 16:21 pm
Hey ZooK,
Come on, you can do better than that.
Making public it’s flaws is more than any other political party is ready to do.
There’s “action” going on across the country – check out Pietermaritzburg for example.
Maggs
If a member of the in-favour elite goes down in flames I’ll believe the ANC is serious and not just on a vote-catching escapade.
The farce around the JZ corruption case still lingers as an elephant in the room when the ANC speaks about rooting out corruption.
My trust in the ANC was seriously damaged then, its going to take a lot to get it back.
Sorry Maggs, but I agree with Zoo Keeper.
In his State of the Nation address, Zuma stated that they would root out corruption etc. etc. This was supposed to be the year of action. So, why are they still “talking”.
It’s all good and well releasing yet another discussion document. But what are they going to do about it? Do you imagine the likes of Nyanda are going to be fired after these discussions for his misuse of state monies?
What might happen is that we will see the minions falling like flies, but the top guys still sitting pretty.
Until the ANC takes decisive action against the ruling elite, the rest are just cannon fodder to keep the “big guns” in power.
And by the way, I find it hard to commend them on admitting something that the rest of us have known for ages.
@ Maggs,
They had no choice in Pietermaritzburg. The deployed ANC cadres “running” the city had destroyed its finances completely. You cannot commend them on replacing those people only after the city was destroyed. Why didn’t they take action earlier to prevent it reaching that point? Why must people riot to get results? If proper management was in place, these things would never get to that point.
There’s an easy way to gauge how serious the ANC is about tackling corruption: a couple of days ago I heard Zuma on the radio mention that the ANC was going to implement some sort of task team to investigate corruption. And just so we’re clear: I heard Zuma himself make that undertaking – presumably on behalf of his administration.
Now even the staunchest ANC partisan should conclude that Zuma and his party cannot be very serious about fighting corruption because in order to be serious, Zuma would have to take into the bargain that this task team (or whatever the ANC fancily and disingenuously calls it) would have to investigate the president himself. (Actually, they wouldn’t really have to investigate Zuma if the NPA still has the factual basis of the case against Zuma it desperately tried to take to trial.) So unless you think Zuma and the rest of the crooks have experienced some sort of subconscious need to be prosecuted for their offenses, you simply must conclude that the ANC is really all about making token efforts to tackle corruption.
@ ZooK and Samantha,
I am missing something.
Who was more elite than the former President and his troop of pit bulls?
As much as I am a Zuma supporter, I am, like you annoyed that the case went the way it did. I have no issue with Zuma exploring and exploiting every legal possibility but I do think the response from the then ANDPP was not in the least what we ought to have expected from that institution.
The ANC has worked itself into a horrible corner as a result of elevating and honouring people who stole public funds in parliament on the one hand and trying to discipline others.
Be that as it may – something needs to be done. Across the country there is a strong movement towards grassroots activism and pressure towards the NDR (and cleaning out the criminals from positions of influence).
Whatever the flaws may be, the ANC has a duty to the people of our country to fix itself up. Recognising and acknowledging those is the right way to go.
Fixing is constrained by our very democratic processes in our country – we don’t chop off peoples hands, we don’t do kangaroo justice, we don’t do lynch mobs.
Pietermaritzburg – I don’t think we’ve heard the half of that, I suspect that what we read and hear is pretty much the tip of the iceberg. Be that as it may, resolving it is necessarily reactive.
Most importantly the warning is out there to all the crooks and criminals and shysters that the axe can and will fall.
Of course neither of you are objective and will not credit the ANC for taking the right decision in regard to the current issues that it faces among it’s cadre as well as putting it out in public space for open scrutiny – I reckon that it is doing pretty much the right thing.
Samantha says:
July 29, 2010 at 17:16 pm
“Do you imagine the likes of Nyanda are going to be fired after these discussions for his misuse of state monies?”
Wanna wager????
Pierre, a well-worn theme from you. If this is the best you can do to try and slag off the DA, you should be ashamed of yourself for such a shoddy and patently dishonest article. For example, you know the so-called toilet saga has been totally misrepresented by the ANC and its acolytes, yet you still try to use this as a snide smear against the DA. The reason Debra didn’t engage you on all aspects of this pathetic offering by you is because it would require a whole treatise to refute such utter drivel. Your dislike of Mrs. Zille is bordering on the pathological. Is it because she can probably stuff you up verbally, intellectually and physically?
OK, we know that this article will go down a storm in the tearoom at the UCT law faculty and you will be swamped under a deluge of back-slapping from that crowd of pseudo-intellectuals in sheltered employment. But out here in the real world, it doesn’t wash. Here, you see, we are required to undertake proper reasoning and analysis.
By the way, seeing that you are obsessed with race, racism and race profiling, and you try by way of smear to attach negative elements of this to the DA, maybe you could tell us which came first, racism or bad behaviour?
It is regrettable that your good commentaries are are negated by this sort of tripe.
@ Maggs,
You’re on re the wager!
Samantha says:
July 29, 2010 at 18:04 pm
You’re on!
@ Maggs,
You may be correct that I am not objective about the ANC, but that has more to do with my experience of them than with being a DA supporter.
I live in a small town where the apathy of our Ward Councillor is bordering on pathological. Our PR Councillor was fired from the Municipality for stealing R40000, but then deployed as PR Councillor in the next election. They have taken a proposal I made to them regarding certain issues to SALGA where they declared the entire project to be their initiative. And the list goes on.
Samantha says:
July 29, 2010 at 18:49 pm
Hey Samantha,
If an elected official stole R40 000 and was redeployed is the worst of your experiences then you should be a very happy chappy.
The scale of the challenges are far more profound than that.
It’s not exclusive to the ANC, rethink your view on that – consider though that most crooks will gravitate towards the centres of power.
If you come across any ANC supporter who does not acknowledge that there’s some really nasty things happening across our country then give him or her a dunce cap after pointing out the ANC documents and election manifesto.
The mess has to be resolved and the gains celebrated and built on.
We live in a wonderful country that belongs to all of us and most of us are not ready to allow that to be handed over to pirates without pretending that every problem can or should be solved.
I am no apologist, but I am tired of negative, destructive criticism of the ANC.
The ANC has committed itself verbally and irretrievably to rooting out corruption. President Zuma rejects all bribery and fraud — and it will not stop with mere talk!
Mikhail you would say that. But you and I both know that your loyalty to the ANC stems from YOUR fear of being investigated for corruption.
Maggs -
Those aren’t pirates, that’s the Mafia! We should all be very afraid! Watch out for ‘Democratic Centralism’!
Thank you, Prof, for a truly hilarious post.
Samantha says:
July 29, 2010 at 18:49 pm
Some further thoughts on why we should be approaching life differently in South Africa.
Prior to 1994, the then iniquitous government inspired, cajoled, enticed or otherwise encouraged its people to do everything humanly possible to brutalise, hurt, undermine, humiliate, degrade us. And most of its people gladly and willingly did that.
It became a way of life, ingrained into their souls and the residue of that continues in may of the the people of the evil regime. It still shows everywhere, including on these blogs – there venom spitting comments here for everyone to see.
If those of us who were and often still are on the downside of that respond with the kind of hatred that some who comment here show ours would be a very unpleasant country for all of us.
The ANC on the other hand has ingrained the notion of human dignity in all it’s facets. Sure there are people who purport to be disciplined cadres of the ANC whose actions are inconsistent with that. But it’s not the ANC telling them to behave that way, rather the opposite is true – not only in words and policies but in action too.
There’s an unfortunate clash of the sense of entitlement – some of those who had it continue to behave as though it’s still in their domain; some of those who did not feel that now is their turn. Most frequently the line is race based.
All of us, with any common sense, have to work harder at getting rid of that from our society.
I have had awful run ins with people within the ANC – their actions was not so because the ANC told them to behave so, those are just thugs. On the other hand I have had really terrible experiences during the apartheid era by people who were told so by that regime or were entitled to do whatever they pleased in whatever way they felt like because they could because they were empowered to by their government.
It would be unwise of me to allow either experience to define me today. Nevertheless, there is a bitterness in those opposed to the ANC that even contemplation of a living in a country ruled by their brand of politics a very unnerving prospect.
That said, I am a happy supporter of the ANC, confident that in broad terms that the ANC (beyond having some of the skelms in its ranks), with all its flaws, is creating or enabling the kind of democracy that I want to live in. That it has the overwhelming support of the people of our country means that most South Africans want that too.
Why is it Prof that the DA is primarily supported by the white population? Do we perhaps know something about action and reaction accompanied with the resultant ramifications? One doesn’t have to be a prophet. It’s for sure is that white folk support Democracy and the Rule of the Law, so how can we not be concerned with attacks on the judiciary, spiced with corruption, crime and failure by the government to take anything serious apart from self enrichment, regardless of the cost to the people. Just ask any of us who work in the townships, the squatter camps, or the matchbox RDP areas.
I must say, I don’t understand what appears to be your bias against the DA.
However, on another point. I see that the NEC is seriously considering reviewing why they the ANC are failing. Most of the comments on Times Live, with exception, are quite trashy and juvenile however they understandably express skepticism, apart form the paid fan boys with their vomit.
To me, this decision by the ANC NEC to review their leadership failures is the result of the growing influence of the opposition which is backed by their accelerating vote, and which has pushed the ANC to look at this as a threat, can you think otherwise; also as you know, there’s this media pending which would till JC comes (what if its Buddha), best we have an ethical ANC forced to change by civil and opposition pressure. And who of Democratic belief can fault the DA for their significantly vital opposition?
I am somewhat impressed with the ANC’s gradual acceptance to take to task their corruption and failures. I do not believe this is spin. I think the top dogs are saying enough, we’re happy, these others are too late. I feel a scent in the wind. And I thank the DA for this development. That’s what an opposition party is intended to do… in a Democracy.
And as for Sisulu, and also the ANCYl on defying a court order. Disgusting! But in both cases, will fail. They are their own worst enemies.
Are we a Democracy, or are we not?
That is the question all SAfricans need to ask.
“The farce around the JZ corruption case still lingers as an elephant in the room when the ANC speaks about rooting out corruption.” Zookeeper hits the nail on the head – the ANC chose a known bribetaker to lead it and the country (and then illegally wangled the briber out of jail). Until the elephant is marshalled out of the room the ANC cannot be taken seriously on corruption.
Hugh says:
July 29, 2010 at 20:51 pm
“the ANC chose a known bribetaker to lead it and the country”.
Hey Hugh,
If a fresh election were to be held tomorrow, most of us would enthusiastically vote for a Zuma led administration.
Those who think that know better can mobilise support of the party/leader of their choice – but I suspect that it will still be a minority.
And the excuse for their dismal failure is generally that “the voters are stupid”.
But there’s hope – Dale Carnegie has been working on a book called “How to win voters and influence elections” – to be dispatched with the Second Coming whenever that may be.
Graham, there you go again, really, have you not learnt how to argue by reading this Blog?. No argument. No engagement with my post. Mere invective. Christian National Education obviously put you at a terrible disadvantage and now you are incapable of making any kind of argument, it seems. Your response mirrors exactly that of the poor sods who called me a Hlophe hater for pointing out that he has a case to answer. Why, oh why are people so defensive and so incapable of engaging with the substance of an argument? It is very depressing. Hint: shouting me down merely proves my point about the arrogance of the DA and its supporters, so you might do better if you actually engaged even in a small way with the substance of my post. You will also appear more intelligent and less intolerant, which I (perhaps wrongly) assume you DO aspire to. When one shouts and screams like that without attempting to engage with the argument, it usually means you have lost the argument and is angry about having lost but is not aware of it.
To others, why is it that when black South Africans defend the ANC no matter what or say they would not consider voting DA they are usually dismissed as intolerant, stupid or incapable of being non-racial, but when white DA supporters similarly defend the DA no matter what and say they will not consider voting ANC they are not described as intolerant, stupid and incapable of embracing non-racialism? Why do many people posting on this Blog seem incapable of seeing the good and the bad in each party regardless of their race or party affiliation? To me the DA and ANC policies are actually not that far removed from one another: crony capitalism and jobs for friends and the exclusion of jobs for members of the non-dominant racial group in that party with a lot of talk of helping the poor. Both have serious problems with implementation too. The ANC can sometimes seem incapable or unwilling to implement any plan properly while the DA can often seem to be implementing (albeit relatively effectively) in a way that supports the seriously unjust status quo that protects white privilege.
pierre,
you quote judge swaine thus:
“I wish to make it absolutely clear that I do not suggest that Erasmus J was in any way a party to such conduct“
this is hardly an “explicit exoneration”; if it was, judge swaine would have said so, e.g. he would have said:
“I wish to make it absolutely clear that Erasmus J was in no way a party to such conduct“
but that’s not waht he said, hey ?
instead, additionally, he says this:
“That the government would want to use judges for their purposes is one matter but that judges should allow themselves to be used is quite a different one… The notion of being used by the executive in this way is anathema to the judicial calling and is the very antithesis of the separation of powers.”
so, judge swain says that judge erasmus allowed himself to be used for political purposes and that that is anathema to the judicial calling
funny, this is exactly the claim that was made by madam zille
so, judge swain agrees with her (but not with you)
furthermore, judge erasmus accepted the appointment to the commission at his own discretion and in his personal capacity (i.e. not as a judge); the comparison between criticism of him in that capacity, versus criticism of a judge acting in official capacity (e.g. squires in zuma) is spurious
for the record: although i respect her undeniable capabilities, i find much of helen zille’s utterings and general attitude objectionable and irritating
more irritating though, (for now) is your intellectual dishonesty as displayed above…but nevermind, tomorrow you’ll probably be on the straight and narrow again with crispy, objective and honest analysis
the final arbiter says:
July 29, 2010 at 21:42 pm
Hey Final,
Nice to see you alive and well again.
How do you conclude that Judge Swain said that Judge Erasmus allowed himself to be used for political purposes and that that is anathema to the judicial calling?
From your post I read a broad generalisation in relation to judges in general rather than a specific assault on Erasmus.
What am I missing?
“but the court made it clear that no ulterior purpose (as alleged by Zille) was present on the part of the judge. This fact was lost in the post judgment spin by Zille and the DA sycophants.”
Regtig? Ek dag die Regter se hy wil dit absoluut duidelik maak dat hy nie insinueer dat Regter Erasmus deel van die wanvoorstelling was nie.
Daar is ‘n verskil.
Really, Maggs? “Us”? I suppose that is why the infant mortality rate is now higher than it was 20 years ago?
You really should go into the fertilizer business. No-one can spread it like you.
“Prior to 1994, the then iniquitous government inspired, cajoled, enticed or otherwise encouraged its people to do everything humanly possible to brutalise, hurt, undermine, humiliate, degrade us. And most of its people gladly and willingly did that.
It became a way of life, ingrained into their souls and the residue of that continues in may of the the people of the evil regime. It still shows everywhere, including on these blogs – there venom spitting comments here for everyone to see.”
Dear Mr Naidu,
As per our specified mandate we do not partake in any debates, nor do we (or, need we) furnish reasons for our findings. Our decisions are, without exception, final.
We thank you for your spirited enquiry though.
P.S. On our receipt of a list of official government tenders placed under your administration (if any), we might consider having one of our minnows respond (in casual conversational style) to your query(s).
@ Pierre…to deal effectively with this post we need to go back in time to 2008 when you published 4 blogs on Thoughtleader in the following sequence:
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/pierredevos/2008/04/16/zille-zillier-zilliest/
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/pierredevos/2008/04/23/hypocrisy-rules-again/
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/pierredevos/2008/05/08/on-criticising-judges-and-a-mea-culpa/
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/pierredevos/2008/09/02/zille-maybe-not-so-zilly/
These blogs range from viciously scathing criticism of Zille because of her stance on the Erasmus Commission to the final blog “Zille maybe not so zilly”, where you say, inter alia:
“Maybe I owe an apology to Helen Zille”
“But yesterday a bench of judges agreed with Zille that Rasool’s motive had in fact been the “improper one” of seeking to embarrass his political opponents, in particular the Democratic Alliance (DA), which leads the city. Judges Kevin Swain and Chris Nicholson, sitting in the Cape High Court, also said the appointment of a serving judge to chair the commission is incompatible with the principle of separation of powers, and is therefore unlawful and invalid.”
“However, in as much as my comments might have been interpreted as suggesting she does not have a case, I definitely owe her an apology. The Court, presented with all the facts, found that this Commission was set up with a political motive and thus that Rasool had tried to abuse the judiciary for short-term political gain.”
The fact that Erasmus accepted the appointment placed him right in the centre of the fray. He could so easily have declined Rasool’s appointment, because one would expect him to understand the consequences of his appointment as spelt out by Judges Swain and Nicholson
Those bloggers who now seek to support this latest blog should at very least go back and read what you had to say 2 years ago.
In my opinion you were wrong then and you are still wrong now. No amount of obsessive revisiting of this saga is going to change that reality. Try and be gracious in defeat
Prof,
I do have a question, as the ANC is the governing party, should it not be held to a different (higher) standard?
Not because the majority of its voters is black, but purely because it has the ability to do damage?
If the DA attack SAHRC then it is like a Chihuahua barking, just noise… However, the ANC attacking the public protector or judiciary actually is a bit more than noise… With its majority in parliament it can easily chop and change almost any chapter 9 institution whereas the DA is merely “advisory”…
Just a thought.
Clearly, the ANC’s apologists are on the run because of the study Sam posted showing many times the racial diversity in the DA compared to the ANC.
Forget for the moment the court orders this year interdicting the ANC from hate speech and the lack of action against ANC leaders indulging themselves in hate speech.
Can anyone tell us what the ANC’s reaction was to the story below? Do ANC leaders all think like Mzukisi Gaba?
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=186737&sn=Marketingweb+detail
Cops assault husband of MP – DA
Dianne Kohler Barnard
13 July 2010
Dianne Kohler Barnard calls for ICD to investigate attack on
Stewart Robinson in Durbanville
Police brutality: ICD asked to investigate attack-and-run
Yesterday afternoon, Stewart Robinson, the husband of DA Shadow
Minister of Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities
Denise Robinson MP, was the victim of a brutal assault by police
officers. Mr. Robinson was pulled off the road, dragged out of
his car, and hit in the face by police officers, who broke his
glasses and shouted racial slurs at him. The police officers then
drove off.
This is another dreadful incident of police brutality. It is a
clear-cut case of power abuse and thuggery. Our thoughts are with
the Robinson family after this horrible ordeal. I have requested
that the police watchdog, the Independent Complaints Directorate
(ICD), initiate an investigation as a matter of urgency.
Although the incident took place in Durbanville, we understand
that the police officers involved were probably not from
Durbanville Police Station. Witnesses managed to take down the
registration plate of the vehicle, and we will ensure that this
information is forwarded to the ICD. This should help to
determine which officers are responsible. I contacted the ICD
yesterday afternoon to report the incident and Mr. Robinson will
also be opening a case with the ICD during the course of the day.
We will, of course, carefully monitor the progress of this
investigation.
This unfortunately is not an isolated incident, but is instead
part of a broader trend of police exceeding and abusing their
authority. Earlier today we saw reports of the alleged shooting
of 23 year old sound engineer Nkosinathi Ntuli, allegedly at the
hands of police officers in Pretoria. There have also been a
number of high profile incidents over the course of recent
months, including the arrest at gun point and assault of
University of Cape Town student Chumani Maxwele by President
Zuma’s bodyguards. The ICD received over 5000 cases of police
misconduct and criminality last year. The increase in police
brutality that has occurred under Commissioner Cele is a most
concerning development, and again illustrates the need for the
ICD’s remit and oversight powers to be extended. Currently only
one in every ten ICD recommendations results in action being
taken by the Police; it is this culture of anything goes that is
responsible for the growing number of these disconcerting
incidents involving police officers.
Statement issued by Dianne Kohler Barnard, MP, Democratic
Alliance shadow minister of police, July 13 2010
http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=751&fArticleId=5553188
BULLY BOYS IN BLUE TAKE ON SINGLE DRIVER
July 13, 2010
By Michelle Jones
A Cape Town resident has lodged a complaint against a group of
police officers he said had tried to force him off the road and
had hit him in the face, breaking his glasses.
Stewart Robinson of Durbanville said an officer had remarked:
“Because you’re white, you think you’re special.” He is married
to Denise Robinson, a DA MP and shadow minister of women, youth,
children and people with disabilities.
He said he had been driving into Durbanville at the speed limit
of 60km/h, along Race Course Road, on Monday. A police vehicle
came up behind him and tried to overtake over a solid white line
‘There was no hard shoulder so I couldn’t pull over’
.
“There was no hard shoulder so I couldn’t pull over. They drove
up close behind me and tired to force me to stop.”
Robinson pulled into the Total Durbanville fuel station and
stopped his car. “They pulled me out of my car. They had no words
of explanation, they hit me in the face and broke my glasses,”
Robinson said at a clinic while waiting to be examined by a
doctor.
Robinson said the officers appeared to be “cross” because he had
not pulled over. “There were half a dozen witnesses. When they
realised what they did they drove away.”
Robinson couldn’t see their name tags or read the vehicle’s
registration number without his spectacles but Immediately after
the incident he lodged a complaint of assault with Durbanville
police station.
Cobus Mostert, owner of Total Durbanville, said he was inside the
garage’s office when he heard a commotion outside: “When I
arrived outside the policemen were leaving, five or six of them
in a Mercedes Kombi vehicle
‘They ripped off his glasses and he couldn’t see properly’.
I assisted the man. He was bleeding from his face. They ripped
off his glasses and he couldn’t see properly. I helped him to
drive to the Durbanville police station.”
Mostert said he had asked the men not to leave the garage but an
officer was rude to him before they left.
“We did manage to write down the registration number of the
vehicle. They were all dressed in police uniform.”
Mostert said a number of people had witnessed the incident and
had been “afraid” to persuade the men to stop the assault.
“Everybody was afraid. They were very aggressive. They knew there
were all these witnesses.”
Mostert said a delivery vehicle parked in front of the CCTV
camera prevented footage of the incident.
Durbanville resident Johan Smit witnessed the assault and tried
to intervene when the group pulled Robinson from his vehicle.
“I stopped at the petrol station and he (Robinson) stopped behind
me. Behind him stopped this police van. I saw them take the keys
from the car and start hitting the man.” An officer said: “You
think you’re special because you are white. We’re going to kill
all you f***ing whites.”
INCIDENT REPORTED TO ICD
Smit said he told Mostert to phone the police and the officers
jumped into their bus and drove away.
Democratic Alliance shadow police minister Dianne Kohler-Barnard
yesterday said she was “beyond furious”. “The police wait until
the end of the World Cup and then revert to type.”
Kohler-Barnard said she had reported the incident to police
watchdog, the Independent Complaints Directorate.
Durbanville police spokeswoman Bernice Laas-Bezuidenhout did not
answer her cellphone yesterday. An officer at the police station
confirmed a complaint had been lodged.
Provincial police spokesman Frederick van Wyk confirmed the
incident and said a police investigation was under way. – Cape
Times
the final arbiter: The quote you use comes in the context of a discussion of possible perceptions about judicial entanglement in political issues. It makes no finding about Erasmus. It merely states that by accepting the appointment he was wrong because it could have created the perception that he was allowing himself to be used. As the court explicitly found that it was not called upon and was not going to find on the question of whether Erasmus really allowed himself to be used, your contention (and that of Zille) is therefore wrong. In law there is a fundamental difference between actions that a court finds could have created a wrong perception and actions that a court finds was in fact motivated by bias. (Its like the difference between me being seen having coffee with Helen Zille, creating the perception that I am giving her advice – although I was merely asking about her son’s rock band – and me actually giving Zille advice. World of difference.) Zille did not say that by accepting the task Erasmus was wrong because his decision could have created a perception that he was allowing himself to be used. She said that he indeed did so because he decided to allow himself to be used. There is a world of difference between these two things. Both are wrong. The one is a legitimate mistake but does not impugn the integrity of the judge. The other does. The court does not impugn the integrity of the judge but Zille did. Simple, really.
hey pierre, when did you have coffee with the madam ?
(and what would gareth say about that ? …you cruising for a bruising ?!)
the final arbiter must have made a mistake pierre (wink, wink)
it is true that the court made no finding on judge erasmus (nor was it called upon to do so)
but then it also follows logically that judge erasmus was not “explicitly exonerated” by the court
agree ?
[...] so in extolling the virtues of the Public Protector. Political observer and constitutional scholar Pierre De Vos wasted no time today in pointing out the hypocrisy of this statement in light of the ribbing Zille gave the SAHRC on [...]
I’m still waiting for an answer to my request to be provided with the actual defintion of ‘racism’.
Unfortunatley the Prof. and other high and might la-di-dah’s think I am lower than scum and unworthy of an answer…
Eish!
Dear fellow bloggers, here is an interesting development.
On 29 July @ 22,17 I posted a response to this blog. In very small print below my name is the comment…”Your comment is awaiting moderation”. I cannor remember seeing this before and I am assuming that my post is still in suspension despite the fact that 7 subsequent posts are reflected. This must surely be a technical problem given the good professors support for freedom of speech.
Brett Nortje says:
July 29, 2010 at 22:08 pm
Hey Brett,
I see you mind is still on vacation – somewhere in my comments I made reference to people with common sense thereby excluding you.
Not to worry, I found a possible solution for you – it’s “extra concentrate DM” usually fed to goats in Malayasia but will work on you too.
the final arbiter says:
July 29, 2010 at 22:16 pm
hahahaha – in other words you don’t quite know what you were going on about.
This “go walkabout” thing must be contagious – Brett quarantine yourself.
Omongst all the politicians – My hat goes out for one Zwelinzima Vavi. He is consistent. He has made serious enemies within the ANC – his very own political party – by speaking out against corruption, jobs for pals, etc. He has continously declined opportunities to serve in the NEC or NWC of the ANC. Apparently, declined to serve in Zuma’s cabinet also so that he can continue to serve as an effective opposition to the ANC. The DA are just a hypocritical, anti-Zuma (1st) then anti-ANC bunch. They really miss great opportunities to dispel the perception that they are racists. I personally believe the arent, but the keep missing opportunities. In such a white dominant party, you need strategic interventions sometimes to get blacks in positions visible to the black majority. Pure elections, like they just had, will not achieve that. Hire a black Premier spokesperson, put a black parliamentary leader, get more black spokespeople for shadow ministers, etc and GIVE THEM MORE MEDIA SPACE. There is an advice, for FREE
Anton, as you posted several URL links the Blog programme flagged it as possible spam. I did not pick this up. I have now approved the comment.
Spuy, to me you make a lot of sense. DA needs to be pro-active – given its image and demograpic composition – to dispell suspicions. I suspect that some in DA wants to do this but because the DA – like the ANC – is a rather broad church there are many DA members and leaders who are really opposed to any kind of pro-active management of this sort. Rather just muddle on and on and on
Pierre, I understand the flag on my post now.
“The ANC, human dignity and freedom of the media
Brett Nortje says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 15, 2010 at 10:42 am”
My apologies for rushing to judgement and suspecting you of censorship!
Maggs says:
“If an elected official stole R40 000 and was redeployed is the worst of your experiences then you should be a very happy chappy.”
Maggs, as an ANC supporter, you argue my point. This was not the worst, but just one of many issues I have with ANC governance. And, I can never be happy with people being “rewarded” for theft.
In another post, you say the following:
“That said, I am a happy supporter of the ANC, confident that in broad terms that the ANC (beyond having some of the skelms in its ranks), with all its flaws, is creating or enabling the kind of democracy that I want to live in. That it has the overwhelming support of the people of our country means that most South Africans want that too.”
Personally, I do not believe that the ANC are trying to create a democracy. Their attempts to centralise government, their attempts to “muzzle” the press, their absolute aversion to transparency and their complete lack of accountability indicate to me that they are working to create an autocracy and to have total power.
Furthermore, in the last two days, we have heard the ANCYL told their followers that if they approach the courts to settle grievance they will be expelled. Today, Zuma has asked the soon-to-be deposed royals not to approach the courts for relief. Their Land Expropriation Bill, which they have tried to revive this year, also does not provide for access to courts. This is a complete flouting of the Constitution and the rights of the people in this country.
I will not even start on the corruption, theft, mismanagement of resources and cronyism that mark this current government.
So, your argument about the ANC creating a “democracy” is an anathema to me.
@ Spuy,
I agree, wholeheartedly with your comment on Vavi. I have immense respect for him. I also believe that currently, Buti Manamela is the best Youth Leader in this country. Who would ever have thought that Communists would be one the of the best examples of democracy in the country?
Your advice re the DA is certainly spot on and I cannot disagree with you. Unfortunately, you begin your advice with a rather broad and unfair statement regarding the DA which does little to support what would have been a fair and unbiased criticism.
Please, Samantha! Are you being deliberately obtuse? Maggs is quite right!
Forget for the moment that for any ANC-elected official to steal R40 000 is small beer.
You, who did everything humanly possible to brutalise, hurt, undermine, humiliate, degrade Maggs. You who gladly and willingly did that, letting it become a way of life, ingrained into your soul (it shows everywhere, including on these blogs – your venom spitting comments here for everyone to see…)
Do you not think you owe Maggs some kind of apology? Compensation? Damages? Consolation?
And then to remove yourself from his country?
@ Spuy and Pierre,
Much of your criticism is valid. However, I have seen the responses by ANC supporters to press statements from Lindiwe Mazibuko, the DA spokesperson, which accuse her of being Helen Zille’s maid, or from Khume Ramulifho, called Helen’s garden boy.
These are two highly intelligent, educated and brilliant young Black people and because they are in the DA, they are denigrated.
Accordingly, the DA believes that the best way to attract voters is to govern effectively. We know we will not “take over” in the next few elections, but we are slowly proving ourselves and in that way overcoming the “racist” noise.
@ Pierre…..thanks.
It is now so far back in the queue that it will probably go unread by most.
Samantha says:
July 30, 2010 at 9:11 am
Hey Samantha,
As tempted as I am I will avoid the “the other political parties also did …”. It’s not going to make things better.
I agree that there is some serious corruption, theft and sheer criminality going on. And that there are bands of thugs who are in many cases ganging up to loot in the guise of activism. The ANC recognises that – the Polokwane conference documents and resolutions as well as the election manifesto covered that.
And the latest announcement is a clear strategy to deal with it. It would be naive to think that this would disappear in a flash. It’s not only government or the ANC leadership that have to fix that up – all of us should be doing something. Just anti-ANC sloganeering will not help – it may just have the opposite effect.
If the ANC was not trying to create a democracy, then we won’t have one. It has sufficient voter support to take our country pretty much any which way it chooses. Resistance to anything anti-democratic will come from the ANC itself, not the feeble opposition. As Spuy pointed out above people like Vavi are serious assets to us all.
That said, we all still need to be immensely vigilant – shout, scream, moan, bring on legal challenges, use the Chapter 9 institutions to the fullest or whatever – complacency may well led to the erosion of all that most of want.
Brett Nortje says:
July 30, 2010 at 9:27 am
Hey Brett – the byline for the X-Files was “(t)he truth is out there”.
It seems that your mind has gone searching for the truth!
Let me know when it gets back.
@ Samantha
“We know we will not “take over” in the next few elections”
Did you miss Zille’s plan, 2014?
BTW, I listened to your new Youth Leadear last night on 702 and he did not suprise at all, Juju will definately be a genius next to him. First question, he was asked to state 3 top priorities of DA Youth arm and he stumbled on employment, education, skills blah blah.
Samantha says:
July 30, 2010 at 9:32 am
Hey Sam
“These are two highly intelligent, educated and brilliant young Black people”
It’s nice to note the standards for Black people.
To combat the perception of racial mobilisation, and, to address the unfortunate fact that it has been ordered by the Courts twice this year to desist from hate speech (it has also been dragged before the Equality Court)
shouldn’t the ANCYL actively be seeking a white national leader?
Now Prof
Please comment on the ANCYL’s refusal to obey court orders and accusing the judge of taking a “drunken decision”
Please also remember that Swain’s criticism of Erasmus must be seen in the context of the prinicple of Caesar’s wife.
In that respect, it is quite a damning comment…
Interesting Ramphele interview.
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page299364?oid=498757&sn=2009+Detail&pid=287226
@ Gwebecimele,
Unfortunately, I do not live in an area where we receive 702, so I cannot comment on the interview. You must feel so vindicated.
However, in light of your reference to Malema’s brainpower, I list below a small biography of our new youth leader, just to put your comment into perspective:
Makashule Gana (27) is a DA councillor in the City of Johannesburg. Gana joined the DA Youth in 2002, and worked as DA Student Organisation (DASO) provincial chairperson for Limpopo from 2003. In 2005 he relocated to Johannesburg, where he was instrumental in reviving DA Youth structures. He was elected Branch Youth Chairperson for the Johannesburg Innercity branch in 2006, became DA Youth Chairperson for the Johannesburg Central Constituency in 2007, and was then elected Gauteng South DA Youth Chairperson in 2008. Gama was a member of the DA Federal Council between 2009 and 2010. He holds a Bachelor of Science degree and is currently registered for a Post Graduate Diploma in Management with Wits Business School.
@ Maggs,
Please do not be disingenuous, it does not suit you.
Your comment, as follows, refers : “It’s nice to note the standards for Black people.”
You know very well that the point I was making is that despite how amazing these people are, nobody will listen because they belong to the DA. And despite the fact that everyone keeps telling the DA to create a more “Black” public profile, even our Black leaders are disparaged because they are DA. Accordingly, the DA will never win that battle!!!
Furthermore, are these not the standards we should be holding all our public representatives to, or is that asking too much?
Samantha says:
July 30, 2010 at 11:05 am
Hey Samantha,
Well done to the DA on getting such well qualified Blacks.
The ANC is lead by a President who has no formal schooling.
The ANCYL is led by a President who got G for woodwork.
ANC = 65,9% voter support.
Those darn dumb voters!
@ Maggs,
And the country is falling apart!!
I have to run – will continue this discussion later.
Samantha says:
July 30, 2010 at 11:13 am
“You know very well that the point I was making is that despite how amazing these people are, nobody will listen because they belong to the DA.”
Not true.
The reason that people get their backs up, is not because it’s the DA that is talking.
It’s because the strategy is to attack the ANC.
“Fight back” and “Stop Zuma” is hardly inspiring.
Most people already know what is wrong in the ANC – they don’t need to hear the constant moaning from the opposition.
Get issue based if you want to be heard.
Show your results, not the ANC failures.
Tell us where you are succeeding and where you are failing and why.
If you do well in the WC expect people to migrate there – don’t complain when they do, everyone is in search of a better life.
Especially don’t preach one thing and practice another.
If you think it’s ok to attack judges, rightly or wrongly, expect the ANCYL rascals to talk about drunken judges.
If you deploy “cronies”, don’t complain about the ANC and cadre deployment.
It goes on but you get the drift.
Samantha says:
July 30, 2010 at 11:15 am
hey Sam,
“And the country is falling apart!!”
It should be quite easy for you guys to pick up the pieces, especially considering the very impressive CVs in your stable.
Zoo Keeper says:
July 30, 2010 at 10:18 am
Hey ZooK,
“Caesar’s wife”.
As Gwebs pointed out elsewhere, messing with Caesar’s wife is very unwise.
“Shiceka, who has had tongues wagging for the past two weeks for failing to arrive at government meetings, was with President Jacob Zuma at a media briefing at the Union Buildings, in Pretoria, yesterday. He limped into the media room on crutches and with a scar on his head.
The mystery about Shiceka’s whereabouts began more than two weeks ago when an SMS was circulated among ANC alliance leaders alleging that he had been beaten to a pulp after being caught-up in a love triangle. ”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article577045.ece/Shiceka-reappears-with-limp
Oh please! Juju a genius next to DA Youth Leader?! He does not even have the balls to debate against the man – that is why he didn’t appear on last night’s show.
Young Communist League leader was not scared, however.
Was a most excellent discussion, thankfully not marred by the irrational drivel that would have come from Malema’s mouth had he displayed enough courage to appear alongside his peers.
@ Maggs
Maggs asks the DA: “Tell us where you are succeeding and where you are failing and why.”
Maggs, your fervent interest in the DA’s account is inspiring, to be sure.
But was it not you, who, not so long ago, wrote the immortal words, “I am not interested in the DA’s policies”?
Samantha, I believe I speak for many when I say that you interminable boosting of this seldom-to-be-seen DA “youth” leader is tiresome.
With respek, this man sounds like a Coconut with whitish tendencies.
I, for one, think it is fortunate that Cmd Malema did not excel in woodwork. If he had been good with a lathe, he may have been lost forever as leader of our youth.
Thanks.
Michael Osborne says:
July 30, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Hey Michael,
That was me, in the flesh.
Talking about flesh, the difference between what I suggested and polices is much like my girlfriend often mumbling “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”.
Whatever does she mean?
I am still not interested in DA policies, but I would be interested in knowing, in practical terms the progress that they are making and the positive impact that it, the DA, is making overall to the development of our country in actual terms.
Maggs
Your reply to Samantha encapsulates the DA’s difficulties.
The “Stop Zuma” campaign was idiotic. Whoever thought of that tactic is ignorant or naive and certainly should not be approached for tactical advice in the future. Maybe if they got 3 more IQ points they’ll start barking!
The DA has to get off people and attack issues as you say. Specifically it needs to express its views comprehensively in layman’s terms it policies on AA, BEE and land reform. I know the DA speaks of merit but it has to allay fears of this being a mask for white empowerment. Black fears are real and the DA has no idea of how to allay these.
The DA has to strike the balance and right now it is demonstrating that it is incapable of doing so.
For example the toilets. Zille has not been contradicted so we can take her last statement as fact. In which case there is temporary discomfort for greater long-term gains. Also, the DA has missed the golden opportunity afforded by the City Press expose on ANC toilets – how unbelievably stupid can you be?!?!?!
I can’t help but think that the DA’s publicity machine is a complete foul up run by idiots. All the ANC has to do is say “racist little girl” and the DA is on the back foot. The DA walks into the sucker-punch every time.
The DA and Zille especially need to swallow some pride and take a long hard look at how they come across in the media.
Maggs, I think your girlfriend means you better do something quickly about that erectile dysfunction.
I must say, genius, it is highly entertaining watching you opening your mouth to swop your feet. Michael’s basic assumption is flawed, though. He is unused to dealing with people given to situational ethics.
Brett Nortje says:
July 30, 2010 at 14:21 pm
Hey Brett,
I see the extra concentrate is working already.
Good.
Now you can be Michael’s advisor and while you’re at it, help him to correct his flawed, basic assumptions and guide him through situational ethics- take a week, better still take a few months.
Congratulations Michael – you are now officially under Brett’s care.
@ Mikhail,
I’ll try to stop the interminable boosting.
Just to correct you on one point: The “seldom-to-be-seen” youth leader was only elected last Saturday night. Give him a chance to raise his profile, for goodness’ sake.
Even Malema, despite using buttocks as his election campaign, took a while to capture the media spotlight.
And Floyd’s “sleeping around is sleeping around” episode, which launched him into unrivaled infamy took a while.
@ Maggs,
Your statement, as follows, refers: “The reason that people get their backs up, is not because it’s the DA that is talking.”
I beg to differ. Even when the DA are talking about positive issues, discussing policy etc., the ANC supporters will refuse to listen on account of it being the DA.
I agree that the DA are inclined to personalise issues too much and I certainly was opposed to the Stop Zuma campaign. It didn’t win us many supporters and may actually have lost us votes.
I agree that we need to highlight our successes more, but each time this is done, the ANC supporters shout about the media being “white-owned” or in the DA’s pocket.
One only has to look at some of the comments on this blog to see evidence of that.
Accordingly, while we do need to work on our image, we continue to work on our service delivery. People really are tired of empty rhetoric and want to see results. The DA is results driven and that is what is going to win us votes in the long run, and even more importantly, keep them voting for us.
Samantha says:
July 30, 2010 at 15:07 pm
It may well be that the DA sometimes speaks of positive issues – I have heard it said that the ANC government has implemented DA policies so it’s not entirely correct that ANC supporters don’t listen to the DA. There are even DA members who are ambassadors of our country.
The reason that Patricia de Lille gets listened to frequently is because she carefully picks her fights, not just constantly moaning and bickering.
But let’s not pretend that politics is for the mildly tempered, those who cannot cope with the robust debates really don’t belong in political space.
Of course the DA is not the ANC, it can never be – so it’s not sensible to engage as equals. Build on your own strengths – our people and our country deserves at least that.
Sure there are some problems in ANC controlled local areas, but to suggest that the ANC is not delivering is nearing delusion unless we live in entirely different planets. Try saying that to people who had no homes, water, electricity, schools, hospitals, food etc but now have that – somebody will suggest that you must be on serious drugs.
I have read comments about Juju vs Gana – Juju’s intelligence has been attacked and other derogatory comments have been made about him without cause on this comments page. How does that help your cause towards a more reasoned debate?
That aside – Gana has a CV longer than Brett’s trigger finger. So what? Who draws more audience when speaking? Who draws more votes?
All done and said, in politics it’s the X that marks the spot – everything else is irrelevant rhetoric.
Nice discussion. Shows where we are as a country. As a person who is resident overseas (temporarily), it gives me proper insight of the goings on at home.
A point missed by the DA defenders however, is that if the DA takes the Professor’s criticism and acts on them as suggested, then the DA can only become a better party. They may even increase their support base among Black people substantially.
Fact!
Samantha
That “Stop Zuma” campaign probably cost you about 1 milllion unsure voters who might have voted for you but stayed at home and voted for no-one instead.
Why haven’t you made a meal about the ANC’s toilet scandal? How can the DA miss out on that?
Maggs is right – De Lille picks her fights carefully. Perhaps the DA should take a leaf out of her book otherwise the DA comes across as just a bunch of moaners.
Less quantity, more quality.
Hey, Prof: somebody had just labelled you a “biased racist” on the Phone Topic on SAFM just now. Today topic is ‘what are your (listeners) views on the Reitz4 judgement?’ or something like that. I take it it must be somebody who DOES NOT know you. You are anything but racist, bro! Just up your profile a bit.
@ Dumisani…..the DA is certainly not above criticism and have made their fair share of mistakes.
Your comment that….”if the DA takes the Professor’s criticism and acts on them as suggested, then the DA can only become a better party” does not hold water. Much of the criticism levelled at the DA by the Prof is wide of the mark. He has demonstrated a strong dislike for Helen Zille in particular and this clouds his overall perspective. The Rasool / Erasmus saga is an example. Go back to my earlier post above and read his 2008 blog Zille, Zillier Zilliest and you will see what I mean. It is instructive.
Spuy, I am rather perplexed. I told SABC that I was surprised the presiding officer accepted the guilty plea because those Reitz men continue to claim that they did not have the intention to humiliate the workers. So they pleaded guilty but denied the existence of one of the elements of the crime of crimen injuria which meant that a guilty plea should not have been accepted and trial should have taken place, probably. I also said the sentence was in line with what courts impose for crimen injuria – even slightly on the heavy side. Both are factual statements. I have yet to be made aware of any person in SA convicted of crimen injuria and sentenced to jail without the option of a fine. But I guess, this is such an emotional issue (and understandably so) that people hear what they want to hear. It’s one of the occupational hazards, I suppose. Luckily I have read my Steve Biko and I know who I am (and write what I like!) so I know the comment reflects badly on the person who made it – not on me.
Yup, all over the world election campaign managers take advice from the opposing campaign’s manager.
Sam, my advice would be to read Confrontational Politics.
Pierre, remind us quickly please what the other elements of crimen iniuria are so we can dissect the strength of the State’s case.
Perhaps the Reitz 4 were railroaded into pleading guilty (by the pre-trial publicity) like Willem DuBuisson?
Crimen iniuria is committed where an accused “unlawfully, intentionally and seriously impaired the dignity of another”. The Reitz 4 claim they did not have the intention to humiliate the women. I suspect the state would have been able to prove that they had the intention through dolls eventualis (indirect intention) which is when the possibility of a particular consequence or circumstance is foreseen, but there is a reckless disregard as to whether it ensues or not. I think a finding by the court in this regard would have been better because there would then have been a finding that the Reitz guys did have the intention to humiliate and would have given these guys a wake up call and would have made it difficult for them to continue with their denialism. I suspect the state did not want to risk losing the case (which would have created an uproar), so it accepted the guilty plea despite the accused not admitting to have had the intention. I know I am often rather harsh on the NPA, but in this case they were in a very difficult position. If they had declined to accept the guilty plea and lost the case, all hell would have broken loose – not good for the credibility of the criminal justice system.
Dankie, Pierre. En, wat moet die objektiewe uitwerking op die klaers wees, van die beskuldigdes se handeling?
@ Maggs
“The ANC is lead by a President who has no formal schooling.”
“The ANCYL is led by a President who got G for woodwork.”
Maggs makes a valid point. The ANC’s leadership choices certainly demonstrate its commendable disdain for so-called “training” or “education.”
It is not book learning, but wisdom and judgment that makes for great leadership!
Many thanks.
Thanks Prof! I know you ll be modest and ignore this, but the truth is, without people of your bravery and wisdom, this country would go down the drain. Whenever I see you on TV or hear you on radio, I always smile and tell people that I am able to engage with “that man you see on TV”, my 9year old always calls me to come watch and/or listen to you. I sometimes disagree with you sharply, but still – I am honoured to know and be able to engage you. I just thought I should tell you that so that you know that your good works is indeed noticed and appreciated. I am NOT saying all this cos you agreed with me today for a change, I mean it. Thank you
Well said Spuy.
We can only learn from someone if we have respect for him.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
July 30, 2010 at 20:48 pm
If I am correct, your uncle Hendrik was highly qualified – Professor of Sociology at Stellenbosch?
@ all who have engaged on this issue,
I am sure many are tired of my DA-promotion and we are going around in circles on issues on which we will never agree.
I know that many DA MP’s read this blog and I am sure they take cognizance of what is said, both positive and negative. I am merely a Branch Chair in a very small town, so my impact on policy may be less impressive than others’.
Nonetheless, I feel it is my duty to continue to engage, to continue to try and educate (and learn) and to continue to enjoy the mental gymnastics that this blog provides.
Thank you for the interesting and valuable input.
@ Maggs
You raise an instructive example. Henrdrik Verwoerd had a Phd (Psychology) from the Netherlands. Yet he was a bad leader. George Dubya Bush boasts Yale (BA) and Harvard (MBA) degrees. Look where that got him!
That is why I trust the folksy, intuitive, and thoroughly non-bookish wisdom of Cmd Zuma and Cmd Malema!
@ Samantha
All of yours efforts have not dislodged either Maggs or myself from our unshakable convictions that the ANC is leading us to a great future. Yes, Malema is young. And yes, he has a lot to learn. But Zuma has verbally committed himself to clean and effective goverment.
Many thanks.
Mr De Vos
What is your honest thoughts on the way this “Democracy” is headed ? What is the threat the Freedom Charter and National “Democratic” Revolution poses to the Republics future ?
If one is to understand these correctly and I believe I have a basic understanding, the ANC with its alliance partners seek to dismantle our Constitution to ensure the Freedom Charter can reach its destination, that of a one party state/totalitarian government.
Nationalization of land, banks, mines and then the re-distribution of wealth does not seem very Democratic… or do I need to adjust my contact lens ?
With respects to the Constitution as a living document, how does one hold the ANC accountable when it fails it Constitutional obligations such as section 24 Environment ?
For instance, the Constitutional rules that indeed the ANC government is failing to protect the environment, but it will take sometime to get the ANC government to make a policy which will undo the harm it has caused. So often policies are formed but implementation is lacking.
How do we hold the government to account for its actions when we little Citizens seem so powerless over its might ?
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
“The government is a servant of the People, We are not servants of the government.” – Unknown
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
July 31, 2010 at 0:40 am
Hey Dworky,
Feeling a bit sore about your dear uncle,eh?
Nevermind, you can choose your friends ….
But the chief qualifications of a politician, as you wisely said recently, remains with me “It’s the ability to foretell what will happen tomorrow, next month, and next year–and to explain afterward why it didn’t happen.”
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
July 31, 2010 at 0:40 am
Hey Dworks,
Uncle H was not a bad leader – a bad, evil person, but by no means a bad leader.
He did well what his people wanted him to do.
Until the oke with the worm that is.
One day , perhaps, the “chattering classes ” that this blog epitomises will learn something useful from the following aphorism :
“Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” – George Santayana .
In the above context , nota bella what Angelo M. Codevilla ( professor emeritus of international relations at Boston University) has to say about the ” ruling class ” in America, and the perils it confronts :
http://www.spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print
NOTA BENE REPLACES THE NOTA BELLA IN MY PREVIOUS POSTING
@Nimrod:
What the heck, I like ‘nota bella’. Prof’s ‘dolls eventualis’ also has a rather nice ring to it.
Repeating the same mistake over and over is a frailty peculiar to humans (animals have instincts). Besides, most of us are not old enough to have experienced history. Or we didn’t take that subject at school. Even if we did, we can’t believe anything as gross as that ever really happened, can we now?
@Samantha:
The DA once had its own blog on its official website (Have your Say). Their supporters (myself included) used it partly to offer advice and even vigorous criticism. Did anyone from the DA ever read this blog, or take a blind bit of notice? No, they closed it down, the feeble excuse being that they had no money to pay an ‘administrator’.
Wat gaan hier aan? Ek het gedink dat alles is ok in Suid-Afrika, na aanleiding van die sukses van die onlangse Wêreldbeker-sokkertoernooi. Maar enige manier debat is goed vir ons demokrasie. Keep it up, vir so lank as wat dit is konstruktief.
Dit gaan baie moeilik wees om te veg korrupsie as die antagonis teen korrupsie is ook beskadig. Dieselfde geld met skynheiligheid. As die opposisie partye is veroordeel, maar die kaderontplooiing maatskappye beheer word deur hul lede in diens is ook mense op grond van politieke affliation, dan is die stryd teen kaderontplooiing is terug stel. Die regerende party moet eerlik en getrou besig te hou, op die manier die stryd teen korrupsie sal gewen kan word, op voorwaarde dat dit nie ‘n probleem wat krediet aan die eise van die oorwinning.
Samantha, another myth you might dispel is that the DA is the ‘party of big business’ and rolling in money.
The ANC is hoovering up and peddling patronage.
Where exactly is this “Democracy” going ?
Funny how everything goes full circle. Hugely symbolic right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64oz-XxXYpg
I agree with ZooKeeper and Samantha.
At this point in time only two “real” instances of failure can be brought against Zille; Erasmus Commission and the toilet saga. Ag pleeez man!
These “heinous crimes” by the DA pales in significance if we look at the latest news items regarding press freedom in the country a la ANC.
This is the type of debate the likes of Malema appreciate, it creates the smoke screen that can hide their own nefarious dealings
Maggs Naidu says
“Sure there are some problems in ANC controlled local areas, but to suggest that the ANC is not delivering is nearing delusion unless we live in entirely different planets. Try saying that to people who had no homes, water, electricity, schools, hospitals, food etc but now have that – “
Talk about “ somebody on serious drugs; “ After 14 years 97% municipalities are dysfunctional …. now that is delivery in the ANC book “If it works we will break it”
@ Abidam…….quite right. The two DA “crimes” of the Erasmus Commission and the Toilet Saga were never actually crimes at all. They were very amateur attempts by detractors to discredit an organisation which is struggling to overcome years of ANC misrule.
In creating these red-herrings the detractors have been “ably” assisted by a number of commentators and civil society organisations. The upshot of these smear tactics is that the ANC, its supporters, ANC aligned commentators and various organisations have ended up with egg all over their faces. Do not expect them to be repentant because repentance requires a philosophical mindset which is entirely foreign to all of them.
Very wisely the DA now seems to be ignoring all these distractions whilst they get on with the job of governing. By doing so they very effectively highlight the shortcomings of all their detractors.
What those two ‘scandals’ do prove is that, to the ANC and its apologists, there is no such thing as an objective reality.
A very interesting book to read for anyone who supports the ANC and their nefarious National “Democratic” Revolution.
http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/part4/chapter10
Eric, I think Klein writes a lot of nonsense, but I agree with you that her understanding of global capitalism sheds light on the ultimately conservative implications of the ANC’s NDR’s.
Far from serving the interests of the poor, the NDR (in classical Marxist terms, a bourgeois revolution that serves the interests of the middle class), will orient South Africa as a reliable participant in a global economy, that favours neo-colonialists of both the “West” and, now China.
The ANC legitimates the NDR as part of the BIC (Brazil, India, China), alignment against the “North.” But eveyone understands that the latter three are economic superpowers of this century that will not hesitate to exploit South Africa without qualm or restraint.
Could you direct me the nonsense she speaks/writes ?
My point is, the “democracy” so many fought for is becoming a battered child. Not a week goes by where high level corruption is listed, millions upon millions are being misused and who are the ones who suffer ? The poor and middle class do.
Is it democratic to institute social genocide ? Where by the political and economic elite whizz ahead without care to this “democracy” and the so called “will of the people” ?
The tripartite alliance’s response to this; the curbing of media freedom and the freedom to information.
On top of all of this is the increasing gap between the elitist overclass and working class/unemployed. It was no joke when Jacob Zuma bet on the winning horse at the July, a “leader” who claims he is all for the poor and marginalized is seen living in the lap of luxury with a homestead costing over R65 million, whilst many Citizens must resort to relieving themselves in the open and living in matchbox housing (inhumane).
What is the point of having a Constitution if the ruling party does not take up its obligations ?
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/South_Africa:_Three_Strategic_Water_Quality_Issues_that_Decision_Makers_Need_to_Know_About_and_how_CSIR_Should_Respond,_Nov_2008 <— Section 24: Environment, obviously does not matter any more nor does section 16…
How are we Citizens to hold the government to account (via the Constitutional Court) for their actions ?
I forgot to add one of the most important sections.
2 Supremacy of Constitution
This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic; LAW or CONDUCT inconsistent with it is INVALID, and the obligations imposed by it must be FULFILLED.
Is The ANC not committing crimes against the Republic and Citizens by their own CONDUCT ?
Grütter v Lombard [2007] SCA 2 (RSA)
[10] The essential elements of an injuria were formulated as follows by Innes CJ in R v Umfaan (a formulation that was later approved by this court in R v Chipo):
‘If we look at the essentials of injuria we find – as pointed out by De Villiers in his Law of Injuries, which is a mine of information on this subject – that they are three. The act complained of must be wrongful; it must be intentional; and it must violate one or other of those real rights, those rights in rem, related to personality, which every free man is entitled to enjoy. Chief Justice De Villiers says (p.27): “With these ingredients to hand it will be found that there are three essential requisites to establish an action of injury. They are as follows – (1) an intention on the part of the offender to produce the effect of his act; (2) an overt act which the person doing it is not legally competent to do; and which at the same time is (3) an aggression upon the right of another, by which aggression the other is aggrieved and which constitutes an impairment of the person, dignity or reputation of the other.”’
Professor, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you criticise both the ANC the DA in good faith – by which I really just mean that you call things as you see things. But I do have a question for you: let’s say you had to pick between the two parties, even though you find both disagreeable to one extent or another, who would you choose?
(Michael, I’ll confess that I’d be interested to read your answer as well.)
Is anyone near law reports? I want to make sure of this citation
Van Meer 1923 OPD 77
“It is very difficult, of course, to lay down a general definition of what acts, what exact form of conduct, or what amount of repetition of objectionable conduct would constitute crimen iniuria; and I do not think it advisable for the Court to attempt to lay down such a definition. The criminal or innocent character of the acts would depend upon very many circumstances. It would depend upon the relation between the parties; upon the sex of the two parties concerned. It would also depend very largely upon the degree to which the conduct is persisted in after it has been shown to be distasteful, or to be objected to by the other party.”
Leigh, with a huge dollop of respect, I must say that this is a silly question.
1. The Professor has demonstrated many times over that the purpose of his ostentatious anti-DA prattlle is largely to lend street-cred to his viscious campaign against the ANC, Hlophe JP and Cmd. Malema.
2. The ANC has its faults. And Cmd Malema is young. But Cmd Zuma has unambiguously articulated a determination to keep on saying that he will implement his prior verbal commitment to root out all corruption.
3. The liberal DA would, if given half a chance, degrade the capacity of the public sector’s ability to deliver services to the poor!
Many thanks.
Brett, yes, it is R v Van Meer, at p. 81
See the exact quote below.
I must say, though, that I find it disturbing that you choose to invoke RACIST apartheid-era judgments by judges (De Villiers J.P.) who were utterly untransformed!
If I was you, I would focus more upon decisions by the present JP who sits in Cape Town.
**********
“It is very difficult, of course, to lay down a general definition of what acts, what exact form of conduct, or what amount of repetition of objectionable conduct would constitute crimen injuria; and I do not think it advisable for the Court to attempt to lay down such a definition. The criminal or innocent character of the acts would depend upon very many circumstances. It would depend upon the place where the acts are committed, and upon the time of the commission. It would depend upon the relation between the parties; upon the sex of the two parties concerned. It would also depend very largely upon the degree to which the conduct is persisted in after it has been shown to be distasteful, or to be objected to by the other party. It is contended that very often an act which might seem injurious is really meant to express a legitimate admiration for a lady; and that an act merely expressing admiration would not necessarily constitute an injuria. That may be, but when it is made clear by the lady that the acts are distasteful or unwelcome, and are objected to then, if the acts are repeated again and again, a crimen injuria may be committed.
Mikhail, as usual, you have produced insights that I’ll not soon forget. But while I’ll treasure your intellectual rigour (maybe even forever), let me ask you this: with the utmost respect, do you think that my post was directed towards you or to the two specific personalities that I mentioned therein? (You needn’t answer right away.)
South Africa is a mediocre place indeed where pseudo-intellectuals like Pierre de Vos, Steven Friedman and Adam Habib are hailed as geniuses.
Living the easy life on heavily state-subsidised campuses, these so-called analysts prattle on about how more money should be redistributed from the pockets of the already over-taxed middle classes – in their egalitarian airey-fairey worlds… forgetting that it is the middle classes’ wealth creation and economic growth that will lead to more jobs.
Dworkius, clearly I am marching out of step with fiberals and other progressive forces. Jy sien, IMHO, subjective that is, a lynch mob mentality is anathema to the rule of law and our rights culture.
My objective by invoking such rea
Dworkius, clearly I am marching out of step with fiberals and other progressive forces. Jy sien, IMHO, subjective that is, a lynch mob mentality is anathema to the rule of law and our rights culture.
My objective by invoking such reactionary opinion was simply to plumb the foundations for Snyman apparent belief that, for the Reitz 4 to be found guilty of crimen iniuria the Reitz cleaners would actually have had to be pretty peeved at the time, not decide they are peeved once the ANC had instructed them to be, retroactively!
HEy, thats the second time that has happened to me! Why would one sentnce be posted 2x?, webdinges?
And, I’ve picked up Dworky’s habits with ‘s.
Brett, you may recall that I demanded at the time that these young Reitz thugs be tortured to death, and hung on meathooks on the campus. I have not changed my mind.
(Provided, of course, that the Bloemfontein employees of the Dept of Health who ensured that Free State hospitals run out of AZT around the same time be subjected to stern criticism and deprived of their bonuses.)
Dworky, I admire your principled commitment to equality before the law and equal protection by it!
Leigh, at the moment I have no clue who I will vote for. My heart is, still, with the ANC. My head not so much. If the SACP or Cosatu was an independent party I would probably vote for it. I do not believe in the DA “Equal Opportunity Society” as I see it as an attempt to retain the status quo and erase the consequences of 300 years of colonialism and apartheid. But maybe I will vote for them at some point – especially if I voted in a place where they had not chance of becoming the ruling party.
David Horowitz of Frontpage Magazine said :
” Every individual, whether conservative or liberal, has a perspective and therefore a bias. Professors have every right to interpret the subjects they teach according to their individual points of view. That is the essence of academic freedom. But they also have professional obligations as teachers, whose purpose is the instruction and education of students, not to impose their biases on their students as though they were scientific facts. The professorial task is to teach students how to think not to tell them what to think. In short, it is the responsibility of professors to be professional – and therefore “academic” — in their classrooms. This includes the duty not to present their opinions and prejudices as fact, and not to require students to agree with them on matters which are controversial.
The privileges of tenure and academic freedom are specifically granted in exchange for this professionalism. Society does not provide tenure to politicians – and for good reason. To merit their privileges – and specifically their tenure privileges — professors are expected to adhere to professional standards and avoid political attitudinizing. As professionals, their interepretations should be tempered by the understanding that all human knowledge is uncertain and only imperfectly grasped; that such knowledge must be based on the collection of evidence, evaluated according to professionally agreed on methodologies and standards. As teachers they are expected to make their students aware of the controversies surrounding the evidence, including the significant challenges to their own interpretations. Hired as experts in scholarly disciplines and fields of knowledge, professors are granted tenure in order to protect the integrity of their academic inquiry, not their right to leak into the classroom their uninformed prejudices on subjects which are outside their fields of expertise.
Therefore, professors must be careful to distinguish between matters of opinion and matters of fact, between what is in the end a subjective reading of the data and the data itself. Professors have a responsibility in their classrooms to respect both the standards of research and inquiry of their profession and the still unformed intellects of their students, who are their charges. Their teaching must not seek the arbitrary imposition of personal opinions and prejudices on students, enforced through the power of the grading process and the authority of the institution they represent. “
Pierre De Vos says:
August 2, 2010 at 9:13 am
Leigh, at the moment I have no clue who I will vote for. My heart is, still, with the ANC. My head not so much. If the SACP or Cosatu was an independent party I would probably vote for it.
The South African Communist Party Constitution
Excerpt
4. GUIDING PRINCIPLES
In leading the working class towards national and social emancipation, the SACP is guided by those principles of Marxism-Leninism whose universal validity has been proven by historical experience. The foundations of these principles were laid by Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels and Lenin and enriched by other great revolutionaries. In applying the general principles of Marxism-Leninism, the SACP is, in the first place, concerned with their indigenous elaboration and application to the concrete realities of our own developing situation. More particularly, the SACP will work:
4.1 To end the system of capitalist exploitation in South Africa and to establish a socialist society based on the common ownership of, participation in, and control by the producers of the key means of production. Such a society will respect and protect all personal non-exploitative property.
4.2 To organise, educate and lead the working class in the struggle for socialism and the more immediate objectives of defending and deepening the national democratic revolution and of achieving national and social emancipation. The main aim of the unfolding national democratic revolution is to complete the national liberation of the African people in particular and black people in general, to ensure the destruction of the legacy of white supremacy, and the strengthening of democracy in every sphere of life. By participating in this revolution, the SACP aims to eradicate patriarchal relations, weaken and ultimately destroy the economic and political power of the capitalist class through struggle for working class hegemony over society, in particular the ownership and control of the economy and the achievement of one united state of people’s power. In this state, working class interests will be dominant and the economic conditions will be created which make it possible to move towards social emancipation and, eventually, the total abolition of the exploitation of person by person in both public and private spheres of life.
4.3 To organise, educate and lead women within the working class, the poor and rural communities in pursuit of the aims of the SACP; and to raise the consciousness of the working class and its allies around the integral and oppressive nature of gender relations within South African capitalism.
4.4 To participate in and strengthen the revolutionary alliance of all classes and strata whose interests are served by the immediate aims of the national democratic revolution.
4.5 To spread the widest possible understanding of our basic ideology and its application to South African conditions, particularly among the working class.
4.6 To combat racism, tribalism, sex discrimination, regionalism, chauvinism and all forms of narrow nationalism.
4.7 To encourage an ongoing national and international dialogue with all organisations committed to peace, transformation of gender relations, non-racialism, democracy and the preservation of our environment.
4.8 To promote the ideas of proletarian internationalism and the unity of the workers of South Africa and the world.
@ Clara,
“@Samantha:
The DA once had its own blog on its official website (Have your Say). Their supporters (myself included) used it partly to offer advice and even vigorous criticism. Did anyone from the DA ever read this blog, or take a blind bit of notice? No, they closed it down, the feeble excuse being that they had no money to pay an ‘administrator’.”
The DA actually does not have a huge amount of money at its disposal and even the volunteers’ site was closed down due to lack of funds. So, I don’t think it was a feeble excuse, but a very real financial constraint.
If you go to the DA website at http://www.da.org.za, there is a button on the right called “Have Your Say”, which allows you to send an email to the DA. While not exactly a public forum, it is a means of letting the DA know how you feel.
Also, there are numerous DA pages on Facebook where you can post messages etc. And on the DA website, you are provided with email contact details for all the MP’s and Constituency offices.
“…That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it…” - The Declaration of Independence
“The friend of a criminal is a criminal” – Bheki Cele
Nimrod
Thanks, nice to know what a load of rubbish the commies still believe in.
They obviously don’t have a clue who Lenin really was though – way, way more evil than Hitler.
Unless of course they do, …
Samantha says:
August 2, 2010 at 13:05 pm
“The DA actually does not have a huge amount of money at its disposal and even the volunteers’ site was closed down due to lack of funds. So, I don’t think it was a feeble excuse, but a very real financial constraint.”
Hey Sam,
It may be that you were told so, but it’s hard to believe.
Ning.com is very affordable with support at that for under $50 per month – http://about.ning.com/plans/
Maggs…
A few elite may have benefited from the ‘liberation struggle’ (sic), the masses are way worse off….. in their own words.. if you interested in impartiality about socio-economic realities..
************
When the king of Swaziland ‘called a national convention and invited all … to speak their minds …’ (The Star, 20 August 1988, p.10: “Swazis air affairs of state – and heart”)
… the most surprising call … – surprising too for the reaction it provoked – came from a Swazi man who wanted the return of the “white administration”. He charged that the present “educated leaders” were so greedy or cor-rupt they had brought the country to the brink of financial ruin.
The crowd applauded him. …
***
‘Things were better in the bad old days’, by Andrew Quinn, IOL, December 11 2002:
Most South Africans, both black and white, believe the country was better run under apartheid and say unemployment and crime are the government’s top challenges, according to two new polls released this week (2002).
Overall, the polls showed that about 60 percent of South Africans felt the country was better run under apartheid, with both blacks and whites rating the current government less trustworthy, more corrupt, less able to enforce the law and less able to deliver government services than its white predecessor.
Why is the Transkei Collapsing? An open letter from Mbulelo Ncedana to Nelson Mandela; Mbulelo Ncedana, Cope, 05 February 2010:
”I heard things I thought I’ll never hear again; old people, with rheumy eyes, saying things were much better under the Bantustan government.
Here in South Africa (and this applies equally to the public and private sectors) dishonesty and incompetence are either rewarded or simply ignored. With a few exceptions, those who expose and confront the truth – and who try to uphold collective and personal accountability – are punished, marginalised and labelled.
When lying, cheating and conscious ineptitude become standard “governance” practice (whatever the “sector”), we are in deep crisis.
In conclusion, tata, I hope my letter does not upset you too much, but sometimes we need to take toll and assume responsibilities for our failures. We’ve failed our people. There’s no other way of looking at it. I don’t see the bunch that came after you doing things better, instead things seem to be going from bad to worse.
Postcard From Zimbabwe, Nicholas D. Kristof, April 7, 2010, New York Times:
“When the country changed from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe, we were very excited,” one man, Kizita, told me in a village of mud-walled huts near this town in western Zimbabwe. “But we didn’t realize the ones we chased away were better and the ones we put in power would oppress us.”
“It would have been better if whites had continued to rule because the money would have continued to come,” added a neighbor, a 58-year-old farmer named Isaac. “It was better under Rhodesia. Then we could get jobs. Things were cheaper in stores. Now we have no money, no food.”
Over and over, I cringed as I heard Africans wax nostalgic about a nasty, oppressive regime run by a tiny white elite. Black Zimbabweans responded that at least that regime was more competent than today’s nasty, oppressive regime run by the tiny black elite that surrounds Mr. Mugabe.
***
Opening Pandora’s Apartheid Box – Part 9 – The lies about the Townships, Mike Smith Political Commentary:
“At the height of Apartheid in 1978 Soweto had 115 Football fields, 3 Rugby fields, 4 athletic tracks, 11 Cricket fields, 2 Golf courses, 47 Tennis courts, 7 swimming pools built to Olympic standards, 5 Bowling alleys, 81 Netball fields, 39 children play parks, and countless civic halls, movie houses and clubhouses. In addition to this, Soweto had 300 churches, 365 schools, 2 Technical Colleges, 8 clinics, 63 child day care centres, 11 Post Offices, & its own fruit and vegetable market. There were 2300 registered companies that belonged to black businessmen, about 1000 private taxi companies. 3% of the 50,000 vehicle owners in 1978 were Mercedes Benz owners. Soweto alone had more cars, taxis, schools, churches and sport facilities than most independent countries in Africa. The Blacks of South Africa had more private vehicles than the entire white population of the USSR at the time.”
***
Francis Marion Braidfute says:
August 2, 2010 at 14:30 pm
Nothing could be as bad as it was during the bad old days – important people’s quotes notwithstanding.
That said, there’s a lot on kak going on.
And it seems that formerly hardcore activists, with the exception of Vavi and Nzimande, are too scared to speak out.
People who were ready to die for the freedom and democracy now to scared to open their mouths – it’s a sad reflection on them or the democracy that we have.
The question is, are people willing to fight against this tyranny. Words are pointless if it is not backed up by action.
Are we going to keep on talking whilst the atrocities of the ANC go unpunished ?
@ Francis
With all due respect, this is just a joke.
The white men is not a solution.
Samantha:
Whilst I’m aware of the other options I can employ to have a go at the DA, I have to say that the public forum was much more fun. At this moment, I’m not overly enamoured with the DA; whilst I shall continue voting for them at national and provincial level, I’m no longer sure I want to participate in next year’s local brouhaha. The reason: my town was until recently run by the DA with the help of the local ID component. The ID, however, fell out with the DA when they insisted they get rid of the DA mayor (an Olde Nat), whereupon the local DA decided they would rather go into opposition than continue their allicance with the ID. The ID is now controlling my dorp together with the ANC (which makes a mockery of Helen’s proposed marriage to the ID). In fact, the DA seem awfully happy to be in opposition: it’s so much easier peeing into the tent from the outside, isn’t it? This is not what I want to hear from my local DA. Moreover, they left the ratepayers with a huge debt that we will never be able to pay back.
“For a long ceasefire to exist, some remorse would have to bite inside,” Dorfman said.
@ Samantha……….During the Soccer World Cup I used the DA’s “Have your Say” function to bleat about blue light bullies on the Garden Route. The responsible MEC phoned me at home to deal with my complaint. Very professional.
Clara says:
August 2, 2010 at 15:26 pm
Hey Clara – you’re brave “Moreover, they left the ratepayers with a huge debt that we will never be able to pay back”.
Get ready for a roasting – borrow Pierre’s hide!
Maggs,
You are more than welcome to believe the story that the ANC liberation struggle was about ‘duhmokracy’ and ‘freedom’ — unless you mean the duhmokracy of manipulating the duh population factor with propaganda, the promise of free houses, free electriicty, etc.. as if houses and electricity grow on trees, and the ‘freedom’ to loot and pillage…. then I might agree they were indeed willing to die for duhmockracy and the freedom to loot and pillage…
The ANC have never been interested in dissent, they have relied on coercive violence and force. In the same way that Hitler did. Similar to Hitler they also practiced a form of ‘population production’ for cannon fodder purposes:
Especially evening assemblies girls had to attend as well: “They would come into the house and tell us we should go. They didn’t ask your mother they just said ‘come let’s go.’ You would just have to go with them. They would threaten you with their belts and ultimately you would think that if you refused, they would beat you. Our parents were afraid of them” (quoted by Delius 1996:189).
All those opposing the wishes of the young men were reminded, that it was every woman’s obligation to give birth to new “soldiers”, in order to replace those warriors killed in the liberation struggle. The idiom of the adolescents referred to these patriotic efforts as “operation production”. Because of exactly this reason it was forbidden for the girls to use contraceptives. (Delius 1996:189; Niehaus 1999:250)
– [Johannes Harnischfeger, Witchcraft and the State in South Africa * German version of published in Anthropopos, 95/ 2000, S. 99-112; See also Women in the ANC and SWAPO: sexual abuse of young women in the ANC camps, by Olefile Samuel Mngqibisa
Why are ANC members afraid to speak out??? Why was Stalin’s KGB afraid to speak out? What did Castro do to “Comandante” Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez, when he returned home from Angola??? Those are extreme examples… but the concept remains the same, if you pretend to practice duhmocracy. Then you do what is ‘managed opposition’, or managed dissent. People may have criticism of particular issues, within a small defined ‘criticism allowed box’, but they may not dissent about issues outside of the approved box, issues which ‘rock the boat’. Think back to….
* People’s War, by Anthea Jeffery
* ANC: VIP’s of Violence (documentary on youtube)
* What Happened in the ANC Camps?, Focus: ANC Camps, WIP, No. 82, Page 14-18; June 1992.;
* Women in the ANC and SWAPO: sexual abuse of young women in the ANC camps, by Olefile Samuel Mngqibisa, October 1993, Searchlight South Africa, No 11, Pages 11-16 (ISSN 0954-3384)
* A Miscarriage of Democracy: The ANC Security Department in the 1984 Mutiny in Umkhonto We Sizwe, Bandile Ketelo, Amos Maxongo, Zamxolo Tshona, Ronnie Massango and Luvo Mbengo; Searchlight South Africa, Vol. 2. No.1, July 1990, Pages: 35-41.
* An Open Letter to Nelson Mandela from Ex-ANC Detainees, Searchlight South Africa Number 5 July 1990 , pages 66 to 68
* The ANC Conference: From Kabwe to Johannesburg, Letter to the Editors, Searchlight South Africa, Vol 2, No.2 January 1991
* A Death in South Africa: The Killing of Sipho Phungulwa, by Paul Trwhela, The Killing Fields of South Africa, Searchlight South Africa, Vol 2, No 2, 6 January 1991; Pg 11 – 25; ISSN 0954-3384
* The Case of Samuel Mngzibisa (Elty Mhlekazi); Resignation from ANC, 07/02/1991
* Inside Quadro: End of an Era, by Paul Trewhela, Searchlight South Africa, No. 5 in July 1990.
* The ANC Prison Camps: An Audit of Three Years, 1990 – 1993, by Paul Trewhela, Searchlight South Africa
* The Dilemma of Albie Sachs: ANC Constitutionalism and the Death of Thami Zulu, by Paul Trewhela, Searchlight South Africa
* Stuart Comm. Report: of Inquiry into Recent Developments in People’s Rep. of Angola, Mar 14, 1984: “Despite the report of the Stuart Comm. by Hermanus Loots (alias James Stuart) after being appointed by the ANC’s NEC to inquire into the Pongo mutiny among ANC combatants : “Some of those punished have been maimed for the life and there have been deaths….. The aim of the punishment seems to be to destroy, demoralise and humiliate comrades and not correct and build.” He listed gruesome punishments and the “shocking corruption of fear” in the camps, listed the names of people who died as a result of these punishments and noted that others had committed suicide or had deserted. It added that the ANC/SACP security department had done things that would “shock our people against the movement”. Although presented to Oliver Tambo, Alfred Nzo and others, the Stuart Comm. Report sank without trace. This was apparently not the stuff the politicians behind fighters wanted the world to know about.”
* “The Douglas Commission’s Report. Based on the evidence from some 100 witnesses and depositions from some 60, including some 40 survivors of ANC camps in Angola, Uganda, Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia, it found that the cruelties amounted to a “litany of unbridled and sustained horror”. This Durban based State’s council mentioned various prominent SACP/ANC leaders as being directly or indirectly responsible for serious human rights abuses.”
* ANC – Commission of Enquiry into Certain Allegations of Cruelty and Human Rights Abuse Against ANC Prisoners and Detainees by ANC Members (Motsuenyane Commission) – August 20, 1993 “This Commission, the ANC’s own, recommended that those responsible for the atrocities should be identified and banned from holding high positions of authority.”; but that never happened..
* Skweyiya Commission Report, Report of the Commission of Enquiry into Complaints by Former African National Congress Prisoners and Detainees, 1992
* South Africa: Torture, ill-treatment and executions in African National Congress Camps, Amnesty International, 2 December 1992, AI Index AFR 53/27/92
See also: * Forsaking Gandhian Non-violence, honour & character.. the ANC-Frakenstein spawned a Gov. of comrade-tsotsis, gangsters & kleptomaniacs (Racist, sexist, violent-peddling, Malema hate-talk dangerous for the future, By Mphutlane wa Bofelo)
****************************
Did the Average Black Man want black rule ‘Duhmocracky’ and ‘freedom’?
A few excerpts from: Racism, Guilt, Self-Hatred & Self-Deceipt: A Philosophers Hard-Headed Look at the Dark Continent, by Gedaliah Braun, which is mostly stories from the journal he kept about his conversations:
During the month I spent in South Africa in January 1986, I took every opportunity to ask blacks what they thought about black vs. white rule (etc.). Almost without exception they said they did not want black rule and for the same reasons: the white man was cleverer and more honest.
The most memorable conversation was with a young woman taking a computer course in central Johannes-burg. At first she expressed a noted hostility towards whites, saying she hated white people. All whites? I asked. No, just the Boers (Afrikaners). All Boers? No, just those who hated blacks. So what appeared an ex-treme view turned out to be quite reasonable: hating those you think hate you.
Nevertheless, there was this antagonism towards whites and so I said to her, ‘You must be anxious to see an end to white rule’. Her answer? ‘No way!’ She didn’t want black rule? Not at all. Why not? Her answer, al-most word for word: ‘The white man knows the difference between right and wrong and will usually do the right thing. The black man also knows the difference but will usually do the wrong thing!’. And as I heard these words I knew I would not soon forget them.
@@@
I had a conversation (September 1989) with a black woman who was supposed to work for me on a Wednesday and only showed up two days later. Wednesday, she says – a (white) election day – was a ‘stayaway’: if the ‘comrades’ saw you coming from town you would be beaten. Was it true that women were made to walk naked down the street? Yes, she said; they could also cut off your ear, and say ‘Give this to your mas¬ter; you don’t listen to me!’.
These people, she said, wanted freedom in town (‘white’ Johannesburg), but in the townships they beat any¬one who ‘disobeyed’. In other words, they want to be treated (by whites) as whites treat each other – under the rule of law – but quickly forget about these ‘freedoms’ where they hold sway.
So why is everyone saying blacks want black rule? Well, she said, they would like to ‘share’ it. But once these thugs get a taste of power they will want it all. She laughed; ‘of course’. Then why does everyone keep saying that blacks want a black government? It was the same fear, she said, that makes them afraid to violate the stay¬away.
I asked if she’d ever had such a conversation with any white man before. She laughed again. ‘No, no.’ Nor would she have it with blacks. The media reports millions of blacks protesting (white) elec-tions because they couldn’t vote, when the reality – as the media must know – is that they are simply terrorized.
The book is littered with his conversations on the issue…
######
Gwebecimele,
“The [Truth and Reconciliation] commission also said that there could be no healing without truth, that half-truths and denial were no basis for building the new South Africa, that reconciliation based on falsehood would not last, and that selective recollection of past violence would easily provide the mobilisation for further conflict in the future. If these are its criteria for the role of truth in promoting reconciliation, it has failed to meet them.” — John Kane-Berman, SA Inst. of Race Relations; In The Truth About the Truth Commission (PDF), by Anthea Jeffery
****
“There is a difference between posed, fake intellectual forgiveness, and sincere, sensate being forgiveness, and this diffrence has been, so far, almost always avoided by politicians; including SA’s alleged TRC Peace Prize politicians.”
– Dr. Brad Blanton, President and CEO of Radical Honesty Enterprises Sparrowhawk Book Publishing and The Center for Radical Honesty, both dedicated to promoting honesty in the world; (2) former candidate for Congress in 2004 and 2006, on the platform of ‘Honesty in Politics’ ; (3) Pope of the Radical Honesty Futilitarian Church; i.e. “Dr. Truth” ; and (4) author of (a) Radical Honesty: How To Transform your Life by Telling the Truth; (b) Practicing Radical Honesty: How to Complete the Past, Stay in the Present and Build a Future with a Little Help from Your Friends, (c) Honest to God: A Change of Heart that Can Change the World, with Neale Donald Walsh (Conversations with God series); (d) Radical Parenting: Seven Steps to a Functional Family in a Dysfunctional World; (e) The Truthtellers: Stories of Success by Radically Honest People and (f) Beyond Good and Evil: The Eternal Split-Second-Sound-Light-Being; (g) Some New Kind of Trailer Trash.
(Excerpt from Radical Honesty – RSA Amicus to Concourt, in Citizen v. McBride)
***
Dr. Blanton’s Radical Honesty community, includes individuals whose politics is everything from extreme left to extreme right, whose religions include fundamentalist, to atheist, are black, white, hippy and gun lovers. They all share one common trait: they settle their differences non-violently by means of the Radical Honesty Truth and Forgiveness Social Contract communication processes.
There is not one murderer or rapist in the Radical Honesty culture, thanks to a communication process that provides members with the opportunity to resolve any disagreement, no matter how angry and furious and enraged the individuals are, to a point of sincere sensate forgiveness…
Consequently, because Radical Honesty forgiveness is in your gut sincere, not a result of liberal propaganda coercion….. it breeds real trust and community…
Fake Dorfmann intellectual obligation forgiveness that is hung from a string, on a condition of coerced kneel-crawling… only creates more suppressed anger and a culture of greater hypocrisy and obligated arse-crawling…
Any student of Psychology 101 at a university concerned about scientific realities that work in everyday life — i.e. cutting edge science; as opposed to peddling ideological garbage propaganda they wish to thrust down students throats, should be aware of that…
Eish!
@ Pierre ….do you remember these words……”Yet Professor de Vos is by no means an expert on politics”. That was the opinion of Gareth van Onselen writing in September 2008.
I raise this now in the context of your comment….. “But maybe I will vote for them at some point (the DA) – especially if I voted in a place where they had not chance of becoming the ruling party.”
Maybe van Onselen was correct. You were probably part of the struggle and one of the main goals was the right to vote. Easy come , easy go?
Francis Marion Braidfute, it is amazing how “educated” people can support the ANC, after all the evidence shows they are a criminal organization.
Thanks for the information.
I am with Sipho Hlongwane: http://www.thedailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2010-08-02-what-is-the-da-doing-to-win-my-vote-as-a-black-man
@ Clara,
As I have no idea where your “dorp” is, it is very difficult to get reliable information on what transpired there. I do know that in a certain town in the Western Cape there have been problems with the DA/ID coalition, resulting in the ID working together with the ANC. I imagine that this is the “dorp” to which you refer.
A coalition government is never without its problems and one should bear in mind that ideologies are applied by people. Accordingly, personalities have a big bearing on what happens in these relationships.
With regard to the “big debt” you inherited, it would be interesting to find out whether that began with the DA/ID coalition or whether it existed prior to their tenure. The state of municipalities’ finances countrywide are dire, but certainly in those municipalities governed by the DA, turnaround strategies have ensured that the financial situation has been drastically improved upon through good governance and financial management.
@ Anton Kleinschmidt,
Thank you for your positive feedback on the work of the DA MEC in the Western Cape. It goes a long way to vindicating the choices Helen made when selecting her cabinet.
I believe they are doing an excellent job in the Western Cape.
And on the other side of the coin, this is what the ANCYL think of our judiciary:
“We have always respected the independency of the judiciary. However, the conduct of some of these judges who have become political role players has made us conclude that we will engage with them in a political manner,” said Mtolo.
He called upon all ANCYL members to undermine “this stupid political judgement”.
Puts this entire post into perspective, doesn’t it?
Taken from the following:
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article582269.ece/ANCYL-warns-judiciary
Samantha says:
August 2, 2010 at 21:03 pm
Hey Sam,
The story you’re about to hear is true, only the names and places have been changed to protect innocent persons involved.
“We have always respected the independency of the judiciary. However, the conduct of some of these judges who have become political role players has made us conclude that we will engage with them in a political manner,”
@ Pierre…of course you are with Sipho, so I will tell you what I told him….
“I will tell you what the DA is doing to win your vote…..2 things…. 1/ they are keeping you well informed as to just how badly the the ANC is running this country, 2/ where they are in government they are doing a better job than the ANC. If you choose to ignore this reality then that is your indaba.
The mere fact that you ask the question is a good sign. If you were happy with the ANC then you would not even be asking.”
“Hofmeyr hunts for millions
Zuma sets SIU on trail of officials who robbed poor
Aug 2, 2010 11:24 PM | By BRENDAN BOYLE
President Jacob Zuma has ordered corruption buster Willie Hofmeyr’s special investigating unit to go after millions stolen from the poor by crooked officials and service providers. ”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article582526.ece/Hofmeyr-hunts-for-millions
That is a bit rich considering the over 700 corruption charges Zuma has over his head. Talk about the Injustice.
Pierre De Vos, so you think fellow South Africans prefer the ANC’s tyranny charter and marxism to a liberty centered society where Citizens can decide for themselves how their lives should be ?
No one in their right mind would want an authoritarian society, where Citizens are subservient to the State.
The ANC government keeps Citizens in poverty with their welfare programs, 13 million Citizens are now under this repressive system. Instead of increasing the size of government (33 ministerial departments is big government) decrease the size, start lowering taxes and let CITIZENS be the creators of their own destiny.
Tell me how the DA was able to buck the trend with unemployment in the Western Cape ? Whilst ANC controlled provinces lost more jobs ? Why would the electorate vote for a party who is incapable of governing and providing the platform to enable one to create their OWN future ?
“I prefer dangerous liberty to peaceful servitude.” ”Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.” ”The boisterous sea of liberty is never without a wave.” –Thomas Jefferson
Eric says:
August 3, 2010 at 9:46 am
“That is a bit rich considering the over 700 corruption charges Zuma has over his head.”
President Zuma has zero charges over his head.
Poor memory ? Why did the NPA drop the changes ? Why was the NIA abused ?
Face the facts the ANC is being headed by criminals. Jackie Selebi gets brought to book for a few charges of corruption, but Zuma who spent millions upon millions to stay out of jail gets off the hook ? Tell me why did he try so hard to have evidence withheld from the court ?
One Justice system for the overclass and another for the underclass… great “Constitutional Democracy” we are living under.
Why defend criminals Maggs ?
It appears that people are growing somewhat tired of the ANCYL’s rantings.
ANCYL must apologise to Judge Bheshe – AFT
Anthea Platt
02 August 2010
Anthea Platt calls on SAHRC to investigate Vuyiswa Tulelo’s statements
AFT NOTE WITH CONCERN REMARKS MADE BY MS TULELO
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=190641&sn=Detail
http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/anc-know-your-constitution-iii/
Oh how I love the Truth.
What does this mean Maggs; “A generally corrupt relationship” ?
Eric says:
August 3, 2010 at 10:46 am
Hey Eric,
Those are very important questions to ask the relevant institutions.
Be that as it may, Zuma has zero “corruption charges Zuma has over his head.”
“Tell me why did he try so hard to have evidence withheld from the court?”
I always thought that is what accused people do, especially when they have smart lawyers.
“What does this mean Maggs; ‘A generally corrupt relationship’” – that’s a question to ask of the originators – it’s one of the newspapers I think.
Maggs is right.
The principle of “innocent until proven guilty” always applies – why do you liberals conveniently ditch that idea when you want a stick to beat Zuma?
That is also why I do not not think at all badly about Dr Basson and General Malan. They were never convicted of apartheid crimes. So I MUST assume them innocent, for ALL purposes!
Thanks so much.
@ maggs…..
I seem to recall that the comment “a generally corrupt relationship” was made in court during the Shaik trial (by the Judge I think) . It was merely reported by the “newspapers”
anton kleinschmidt says:
August 3, 2010 at 11:53 am
“I seem to recall that the comment “a generally corrupt relationship” was made in court during the Shaik trial (by the Judge I think).”
Wanna bet?
p.s. If you lose then you owe Samantha, that is if by some remote chance I lose the bet I have with her.
@ Maggs
Sorry, I should have mentioned Richard Nixon and Silvio Berlusconi. These men were harassed for years by the liberal press. Yet never convicted in a court of law. Under the universally applicable “presumption of innocence,” we surely cannot think ill of these men, or deem them unfit for office, can we, Maggs?
@ Maggs,
I’m watching and waiting!!!
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
August 3, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Hey Dworky,
You surfaced after the scolding a day or two ago.
On your post – you can think ill of anyone you so choose for whatever reason.
You can even vote against them if you so desire.
You can even call them criminals.
And Zuma may even have done those things that he was accused of doing.
There must be a point which you are making that I am missing (maybe I got a touch of Brettinitis).
Samantha says:
August 3, 2010 at 12:40 pm
ha – I just hedged my bet with a dead cert as they say at the races.
You both miss the point completely, you advocate two Justice systems, one for the underclass and another for the overclass.
It means Justice can be bought which is sick. How many Citizens are in prison because they can not afford bail ? Yet Jacob Zuma can spend millions of rand on his defense, abuse state organs and stay out of jail ?
Is the dismantling of Democracy a joke to you ? Are you looking forward to a totalitarian state ?
Authoritarian socialism vs. Libertarianism and you go for the 1st one, how sickening.
http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/hrvtrans/index.htm <— Read the information, the ANC is just as bad as the NP!
Just because the ANC is in power does not mean there will not be another Revolution, revolutions will continue to happen until we get rid of tyranny.
Eric says:
August 3, 2010 at 13:40 pm
Hey Eric,
Somebody has sold you a dud. More than one, judging by the misinformation that you’ve been spinning.
Democracy is strengthening.
The ANC is on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the NP having been elected by the majority of people in our country.
The NP was elected by, er, nobody around today.
The vast majority of our people are benefiting under the ANC government in various ways.
Nobody in South Africa today, benefited from the NP.
Like the Never Ending Story, some among us never stop moaning and complaining, even when like, as the ad says, everything keeps going right.
“Controversial because of the numerous obstacles placed in the way of due process and the law in trying to bring this criminal to book and controversial because we as a country are almost completely unfamiliar with the idea of a corrupt official, connected to the ANC, actually going to prison,”
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=nw20100803140834288C317604
In Xhosa they say “Ongavanga ngongenandlebe” I hope the Samanthas are getting the message.
While Cope needs elective conference urgently, the DA needs a policy conference.
Read below.
“Forget about the ANC. Simply pointing at Nyanda, Yengeni and Zuma’s numerous wives and expecting me to place my mark next to Helen Zille’s face in the ballot is not enough. The DA needs to come down from its smug ivory towers and woo black voters. It’s that simple, really.
What is the Democratic Alliance doing to win MY vote?”
by Sipho Hlongwane
So the policy of 5 families for 1 toilet, and a welfare state which sees over 13 million people kept in poverty is good policy ?
Anyone who votes for the ANC votes for tyranny. Who objected to Outcomes Based Education ? The whiners ? The constant complainers ?
OBE is a complete failure, it has dumbed down the nation and yet we are led to believe this is the polices we must follow, what a joke.
Tell me is cadre deployment Constitutional (See section 195 & 197) ? Tell if it is a good policy, has it helped the Republic ?
*policies – policy (line
Eric says:
August 3, 2010 at 15:34 pm
It seem that your assertion that “considering the over 700 corruption charges Zuma has over his head” has now gone to the toilet!
Keep going until you get past global warming to the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Eric, this is just not cricket.
You keep mistaking Maggs for someone who believes in an objective reality seen through the world-view-lens of an objective morality. Maggs is more enlightened than that. Maggs rejects simplistic judgments between right and wrong, say. He leaves that to those with a Calvinist upbringing.
Moreover, Maggs believes in backing a winning team.
Thank you.
Could someone please explain to Maggs the difference between ‘acquittal’, ‘not guilty’, and withdrawal of charges?
Maggs Naidu you seem to miss the point, some here are claiming they will not vote for the DA because of their policies… but I have just proven that the ANC’s policies are archaic and tyrannical. Would you, could you share a toilet with another 4 families ? Is that humane ?
Is it humane to expect Citizens to live in a 42 square meter home ? I know many “poor” people who refuse to live in government housing and have built bigger homes (without government help), which they are proud of.
OBE has dumbed down our youth… but some intelligent Citizens believe this is good policy *lost look*
I will hit the cricket ball over Jacob Zuma’s head when I say, the policy of abusing state organs like the NIA and NPA is poor policy and one which the DA does not support. Separation of Party & State ensures a sound Democracy… not doing so ensures a oligarchy, which creates an uneven society (see the growing disparity between the working class/unemployed and the elitists)
Constitutional-Speaking the ANC is a criminal organization, Maggs look at Section 2 of the Constitution.
Eric says:
August 3, 2010 at 16:13 pm
Hey Eric,
The late Min of Housing Slovo had produced a housing policy that included incremental housing, informed by the constraints on resources, the urgency and the enormous backlog. The proposal then was very small units which could be built on.
The next Minister, Sankie Mtembi-Nkondo, scrapped that and if I recall correctly, she called for 6 roomed houses, which coincided with some homeless organisation calling for “a car in every driveway and a chicken in every pot”.
Min Mtembi-Nkondo, held like you do and correctly so, that the minimum standards laid down would not do much for the dignity of people. But that has to be moderated by reality, so people have not much choice but to live with the best that is available given the constraints that we have.
The constraints are further limited by corruption, criminality, greed, laziness.
OBE was a disaster – not many intelligent citizens thought that it was. Even worse was the shutting down of teacher training institutions and even in some instances, selling off the property. Nobody alive today will accept responsibility for the mess and the terrible impact on post 1994 learners.
The ANC certainly has criminals in its ranks, even at fairly high level – and that must change. But it’s not a novel discovery – this has been the subject of much discussion in the ANC to the extent that cleaning up has been included in the Polokwane resolutions and the ANC election manifesto.
Our country would benefit greatly with a much stronger and more effective opposition.
That it is as weak as it is, is not the fault of the ANC or the voters or anybody else other than the opposition itself. If you think that, then you should also blame the spectators, the organisers, the referees and FIFA for Bafana x2 not going into round 2.
You may well think highly of yourself for hitting “the cricket ball over Jacob Zuma’s head” – but what exactly does that achieve?
Beyond you hitting cricket balls and patting yourself on the back, there is no actual value in those well placed strokes.
@ Gwebe
“While Cope needs elective conference urgently, the DA needs a policy conference.”
All I know is that, in stark contrast to the ANC, the DA favours the system of CAPITALISM.
That aside, I am not interested in the policies of the DA.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
August 3, 2010 at 16:44 pm
HEY DWORKY,
THANKS FOR THAT.
NOW I KNOW WHAT CAPITALISM MEANS!
Min Mtembi-Nkondo was not exactly free of the whiff of scandal.
Pray tell, Maggs, how many houses did the Urban Foundation deliver every year until the UDF ran them off for fear they were making the success of Magnus Malan’s generals’ ‘Total Strategy’ more likely every day?
Hey, Dworky: What is more appropriate? ‘Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery’ or ‘The student outdoes the master’?
LOL!
@ Maggs……just as well that I did not take up your bet. I “thought” wrong and you are right. Have googled the judgement and I see that the judge subsequently made the point that there was no comment about a “generally corrupt relationaship” as reported by the newspapers.
anton kleinschmidt says:
August 3, 2010 at 17:42 pm
Hey Anton,
The SCA also got it wrong, so us mere mortals are ok.
@ Gwebecimele,
Thanks for the heads-up. I did read the article earlier after someone (Maggs, I think) posted a link.
Again, I ask you, “how many who criticise the DA policies have actually read them?”, including Gwebe.
Nonetheless, I have a strong feeling that the DA might possibly be aware that it needs to do more to win the votes of Black people. However, I reiterate that this will only be done by showing people that we are a better option than the ANC when it comes to service delivery.
I can guarantee that the majority of Black voters, particularly in the rural areas, have never even read the policies of the ANC (if any actually do exist that don’t change every 5 years with the new dispensation). Accordingly, I doubt those same people are going to rush out and read the policies of the DA.
The DA will only win the Black vote when people stop voting on the basis of a liberation movement and start voting on the basis of good governance and service delivery. Until they free their hearts, the DA will never appeal to their minds.
Being completely ruthless, without standards or conscience, not caring that there is a difference between right and wrong or truth and lies, then promising poor people something for nothing irrespective of whether it is possible to keep those promises or whether there is any real intention to try and keep them, is an almost impossible gameplan to counter.
All the rest is BS.
‘Attract more black voters!’ Mere noise. BS. It does not matter. You are being change-agented. That is all. Simple, really.
Samantha says:
August 3, 2010 at 18:29 pm
Hey Sam,
I see that the ANC and its alliance partners outdid you guys on Selebi.
- “The handing down of sentence today… clearly indicates that South Africa as a country is governed by laws that are applied without any fear or favour to anyone, regardless of their standing in society,” spokesman Jackson Mthembu said in a statement. …
- Mantashe said the ANC “can’t have different rules for the ANC and for society”, and the Selebi judgement shows that the criminal justice system is up and running.
- Ndima [Gugu Ndima of the Young Communist League] concluded by saying, “This also sends a strong message that there is no room for corruption in the current government,” she said.
- Cosatu spokesman Patrick Craven launched a stinging attack in a statement, condemning Selebi for his crimes.
“It is absolutely outrageous, embarrassing and shameful that somebody appointed to enforce the law and protect South Africa citizens from crime, should accept bribes from disreputable criminals,” said Craven.
vs
- Democratic Alliance’s Shadow Minister of Police Dianne Kohler Barnard, said, “this marks the end of the most controversial trials in South Africa history, because numerous obstacles were placed in the way of due process and the law in trying to bring this criminal to book,” Barnard said.
Barnard continued, “We as a country are almost completely unfamiliar with the idea of a corrupt official connected to the ANC actually going to prison,” she said.
- ‘However, it is problematic for the ID that while Selebi has been punished for his crimes, there remain many ANC leaders that have escaped theirs simply because they are in the right faction of the ruling party,’ said De Lille.
And before Dworky gets a “thank you” in, let me hasten to add that I do not think that Craven meant that it will be ok to accept bribes from a reputable criminal or anyone else for that matter.
@ Samantha……quite right
With every passing year issues that defined the ANCs ascension to political power become less compelling. I am talking about apartheid, white oppression, black disadvantage, the armed struggle, transformation, empowerment, etc. Those of us who lived through the tumultuous pre 1994 years are rapidly approaching the end of our lives and a new paradigm will emerge from that disastrous period in our history. We are in transition and the ANC has already lost the moral high ground because they do not know how to govern. They are now wallowing in a political swamp of their own making.
The future will eventually be defined by those politicians who deliver to the people of South Africa. On current performance the DA has a head start and success will be predicated on delivery. The DA should not allow themselves to be distracted by those who refuse to think for themselves and keep demanding instant gratification of their political expectations. If the DA can “out-deliver” the ANC then they deserve to be considered as an alternative government. This might take time but time creates good vintage and that is what South Africa needs
Maggs so you admit the conduct of the ANC is invalid ?
Do you follow the Parliamentary Monitoring Group Maggs ? As far as I know the minutes are taken down immaculately, how is this disinformation ?
While the Emperor pointedly maintains his silence on the sentencing of his appointee – who opened the doors of the Wachthuis to organised crime – Zwelinzima Vavi says he does not know that the minimum sentence was appropriate given the seriousness of the crime.
@ Anton
“On current performance the DA has a head start and success will be predicated on delivery”
I think I speak for Maggs when I say that I am not interested in the DA’s policies.
Our people demand that the ANC remain in power through the 21st Century to complete transformation, defeat racism, and redistribute land. (BTW, President Zuma is unswerving in his commitment to fight corruption!)
@ Maggs,
Yes, the Alliance partners are certainly brilliantly persuasive and far more liberal with the rhetoric than Diane and Patricia.
Hell, they even have better songs than we do. My personal favourite is “My mother was a maid and my father was a garden boy. That is why I’m a Communist” – and I’m not being facetious here, I love that song!!
But…. can they govern?
So Mikhail Dworkin you are an authoritarian socialist ?
http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/tucker/tucker2.html “State Socialism and Anarchism:
How far they agree, and wherein they differ.” – Benjamin Tucker
You do know that authoritarian socialism always fails ?
“There are two Socialisms.
One is communistic, the other solidaritarian.
One is dictatorial, the other libertarian.
One is metaphysical, the other positive.
One is dogmatic, the other scientific.
One is emotional, the other reflective.
One is destructive, the other constructive.
Both are in pursuit of the greatest possible welfare for all.
One aims to establish happiness for all, the other to enable each to be
happy in his own way.
The first regards the State as a society sui generis, of an especial essence,
the product of a sort of divine right outside of and above all society,
with special rights and able to exact special obediences; the second
considers the State as an association like any other, generally managed
worse than others.
The first proclaims the sovereignty of the State, the second recognizes no
sort of sovereign.
One wishes all monopolies to be held by the State; the other wishes the
abolition of all monopolies.
One wishes the governed class to become the governing class; the other wishes
the disappearance of classes.
Both declare that the existing state of things cannot last.
The first considers revolutions as the indispensable agent of evolutions; the
second teaches that repression alone turns evolutions into revolution…”
Just be assured Mikhail, counter-revolutionaries and super counter-revolutionaries will ensure the NDR fails.
@ Eric – seems that you’ve batted over my head too. I don’t understand what you are getting at.
@ Dworky – thanks Baasie for speaking for me. Your uncles Wouter and Magnus will be very happy with you.
@ Sam – The chorus is, “And now I drive a luxury BMW”.
Nah they cannot govern too well, frequently badly to very badly.
How much more do you guys need to win elections short of the ANC and the alliance partners canvassing for you?
@ Maggs,
Every little bit helps!!
Maggs what do you not understand about Section 2 of the Constitution ?
If you looked at the data from the Parliamentary Monitoring Group you would see how the ANC policies have failed, you would see how much money and in the end how lives have been lost as a direct result of these policies.
How is this batting over your head ? Do you fail to comprehend what I am showing you ?
Morning Maggs……as it happens, the ANC and the alliance are canvassing for the DA rather aggressively.
If the DA wins 10 votes for every negative event in the ANC / Alliance, then the DA should move into government by 2014.
When a young student gets arrested for showing the finger to a presidential convoy, that is 10 votes for the DA.
When residents see their toilet shelters vandalised, that is 10 votes for the DA
Eric says:
August 4, 2010 at 0:12 am
“Maggs what do you not understand about Section 2 of the Constitution ?”
Most of it. I don’t feel to bad though, even the CC judges differ at times on what these complex things mean.
I concede that I fail to comprehend what you are showing.
anton kleinschmidt says:
August 4, 2010 at 8:20 am
Hey Anton,
The ANC will not be able to muster the kind of support at local government that it has at national level – it will probably (and deservedly so) lose a lot of local governments.
It’s unlikely to lose national government for a long time to come – it may even strengthen its voter base.
On an aside, it’s interesting to read that Rasool was fired on allegations – if the ANC can hold all its deployees to the same standards it will be wonderful.
All except Zuma that is
Rasool’s firing was not soon enough though.
“Ambassador-designate to the United States, Ebrahim Rasool, was sacked as Western Cape premier because of allegations that journalists were being paid to write favourable stories about him, ANC secretary-general Gwede Mantashe has revealed.”
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20100804044304591C327714
@ Anton
“If the DA wins 10 votes for every negative event in the ANC / Alliance, then the DA should move into government by 2014.”
Anton, if the ANC wins 10 votes for every manifestation of liberal RACISM by the DA, it will remain in power until Jesus comes. Of one thing you can be sure: our people will not soon allow the DA to bring back the cursed system of CAPITALISM.
@ Maggs,
I have my reservations about the veracity of this claim.
My recollection was that Rasool was fired as a result of the Erasmus Commission and because of his poor performance as Premier.
If, as they are now claiming, they fired him because of these “allegations” which were hardly more than rumours at the time, then how do they justify giving him the Ambassadorship now that the whole episode has been publicised and backed up with affidavits etc. If anything, he has been promoted now, not punished!!
In my personal opinion, this is only being said now in order to further support the call of the ANC for stricter measures to be taken against the press. It is pure manipulation.
Samantha says:
August 4, 2010 at 8:53 am
“how do they justify giving him the Ambassadorship”
Mostly Ambassadors are carefully selected because they are the kind of people who do us proud.
Mostly!
but he did do us proud !
he displayed an innovative spirit in marketing the image of “self”
will not that talent come in handy within the ambit of his new deployment, ummm, appointment ?
This might be one of those rare occasions when Maggs has a lucidem intervallum.
Would explain when the ANC goes outside the party for ambassadors?
Brett Nortje says:
August 4, 2010 at 9:31 am
Hey Brett,
You’re a great asset for GFSA – let’s rather keep you at that rather than the far less complex thingies under discussion.
BTW there was sighting of a strange object in the Tswane area recently – was that your mind floating out there by any chance?
Maggs;
2 Supremacy of Constitution
This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic; law or conduct inconsistent with it is invalid, and the obligations imposed by it must be fulfilled.
If the Justices fail to comprehend that, Yahushua help us all.
Maybe Mr de Vos can do a Constitution 101 for people who battle with such basic concepts.
Eric says:
August 4, 2010 at 9:57 am
Hey Eric,
I am sure that most people understand that.
Whether specific laws are not consistent is often the challenge.
As someone, maybe ZooK, pointed out elsewhere, even where there’s agreement, there’s often different reasons for agreeing.
Getting eleven highly skilled people to see things in the same ways is a challenge – just ask Bafana x 2.
Hey Maggs,
You are on a roll in this thread … love reading your posts
Please go into politics full time ! I wouldnt mind voting for someone like you, regardless of which party you represent …
So the ANC says they’ll rule until Jesus comes again.
Here I was thinking the Christians keep saying “He’s coming! He’s coming!”
Must be that the ANC is not Christian then, because by their rationale “When Jesus comes again” is eternity.
Just thought I’d throw that in for the morning…
Whatever …
The DA is the only viable alternative to the ANC and we all want change don’t we? Well then … who do we vote for?? The DA of course! If they turn out to be everything that Professor De Vos writes in this blog then we can vote them out the next time round! Long live democracy!
Xolani says:
August 4, 2010 at 11:53 am
Hey Xo,
Thanks.
Zoo Keeper says:
August 4, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Hey Zook – there’s been a few sightings – probably all fake cos’ the ANC is still ruling.
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewnews.php?id=85757
http://www.inquisitr.com/7811/jesus-sighted-in-a-coffee-cup-exclusive/
http://jezebel.com/5377390/jesus-sighted-in-kitchen-curtains
http://www.stockwatch.in/image-jesus-farm-spotted-google-earth-27955
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
August 4, 2010 at 8:49 am
———Of one thing you can be sure: our people will not soon allow the DA to bring back the cursed system of CAPITALISM
Bravo the two contrarians – Professor de Vos and the above traditionalist , anti-capitalist !
It is submitted that individualism founded on God-given rights has triumphed over the alternative—the collectivist premise for the state in its various manifestations: Rousseau’s “will of the people,” for example, or Marx’s proletarian dictatorship, or the blood-and-soil nationalism that led Europe and Japan into the world wars of the twentieth century. The only form of collectivism still embraced by a large part of the world’s population is integralist Islam, which dominates most Muslim-majority countries.
Hey Maggs and Dworky and the Prof et al
I see the Sunday Times journo who broke the Cele story has been arrested and held in an “undisclosed” police station for fraud and defeating the ends of justice for possessing an allegedly fake letter of resignation!
Its starting.
This was all very, very apparent when JZ got into power that the ANC would begin to remove our freedoms piece by piece after the SWC. Anybody with a pea-brain could see this coming.
The recent events show that we are heading for a full on totalitarian state.
We as Liberty loving Citizens must institute with the help of Constitutional lawyers a class action lawsuit against the ANC and call for fresh elections!
The ANC/SACP/COSATU are a threat to the Republic and Citizens!
As for those supporting marxism, stalinism and other manners of authoritarianism, let me assure you Citizens will arm themselves like before in ensuring tyrants are dethroned.
@ Zook
Yes — we will now see the liberal press falling over themselves to condemn the arrest as a threat to “press freedom.”
I cannot help but see an element of RACISM in the refusal to acknowledge that General Cele has all the rights to dignity and privacy as any white South African.
Sirjay, were you in the country when the ANC pissed away brand New South Africa with its AIDS denialism, Arms Deal intrigues and the first revelations about the authoritarian kleptocratic state?
All the goodwill built up with Madiba Magic, the Arch’s Rainbow Nation and South Africa’s successful rugby World Cup – gone! [It might interest you to know that the Afrikaans translation for 'goodwill' is 'klandisiewaarde'. Literally, clientelevalue. And, it was.]
The rush resulting from the successful peaceful transition made this nation aim very high – the rugby World Cup, an Olympic bid and the FIFA world cup.
When the Emperor took over he made it clear that it marked the end of the reconciliation era – next, TM said, was the era of delivery.
It turned out that the Emperor’s legacy was neither. His lot is ignominy.
Now, this nation is basking in the glory of brand World Cup 2010. Only, the ANC has an inner compulsion to destroy whatever does not reflect its ugly world view. Now, defeat is to be snatched from the jaws of victory by the warlords. The ANC is set to piss away brand World Cup 2010 to protect them.
Who are the real losers here? The South African people of course, but who is set to pay a very high personal price?
Remember Monday 12 July? Sepp Blatter gives South Africa 9/10 for hosting a successful World Cup. Who really got that 9/10 grade?
Why, Nathi Mthethwa and Bheki Cele, of course!
An incident-free World Cup! Everyone’s fears about crime or terrorism? Completely unfounded.
Bheki Cele and Nathi Mthethwa could have died 13 July and left an unblemished legacy that their families could have honoured for the next 10 generations. What a note to end on!
And now?
A lot of my friends say Bheki Cele is exactly the right man for the job. They think we need a cowboy, who will be dreaded by criminals and feared in the SAPS’ ranks as one top cop who will kick anyone not doing the job properly’s arse and take anyone’s name.
Perhaps Bheki Cele should saddle his horse, fetch his shotgun and go hunting one Roux Shabangu to find out if there was a conspiracy and who-all contributed to tarnishing his legacy?
If this journalist is in possession of a fake resignation letter of a Premier then he must be locked until he names his source. We will not tolerate distabilization of the Government.
Face facts, the ANC is dismantling our treasured “Democracy” and there are some here who want that, because they enjoy being the lapdogs of authority.
Hitler started by outlawing and arresting homosexuals, then moved onto others who were not inline with the party.
Arresting a journalist like this and holding him for 48 hours like a “terrorist” is beyond a joke. Yet some here are actually happy, this is a SAD DAY FOR SOUTH AFRICA!
“…That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it…” - The Declaration of Independence
“In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. when his cause succeeds, However, the timid join him. For then it costs nothing to be a patriot”. Mark Twain
The stupidity of some South Africans is amazing, applauding the death of media freedom and freedom of information is stupid indeed!
@ Gwebe
“If this journalist is in possession of a fake resignation letter of a Premier then he must be locked until he names his source.”
Gwebe is right.
Most South Africans are sick and tired of the liberal press and their coconut lackeys destabilising our government!
Infact anyone who knowingly participated in( drafting, distributing etc) this fake resignation and never reported it to the police must be arrested.
Anyone know about this?
“Sowetan newspaper published an article last week, about a senior DA member Pieter van Dalen and two metro police officers, who allegedly opened fire on two small black children who were playing soccer on an empty piece of land in Khayelitsha in May 2008. …
SAMWU’s Cape Metro based Secretary Mikel Khumalo said, at the time of the shooting van Dalen was just a councillor, then promoted amid this controversy to get him out of the environment, “If the DA awards its members for shooting blackies in townships, we are not going to allow it.”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article585647.ece/Samwu-slams-DA-on-alleged-racist-shooting
Zoo Keeper says:
August 4, 2010 at 13:50 pm
Hey ZooK,
It’s too early to tell, although it does seem suspicious so soon after Wa Afrika published the story on the 1/2 billion Rand lease that the General did not know of or about.
If the SAPS have reason to believe that Wa Afrika does have the fake letter, how should they respond?
@ Maggs……that Sowetan / SAMWU story is all a bit vague two years after the event. Surely the involvement of a DA leader in such an incident would have made headline news in all the South African media.
Surely the DA leadership would not be so stupid as to retain the services of someone who was involved in such an incident. Furthermore, the ANC would not let an incident like this go unnoticed if it had any factual basis, and rightly so.
A white minority politician shooting at black children in Soweto. The mind boggles!
With 6 police vans, Maggs?
Really, who forges a resignation letter from a premier? Why? Who smuggles a resignation letter? Who tries to get it back?
Isn’t this all unnecessarily Alexander Dumas?
anton kleinschmidt says:
August 4, 2010 at 18:19 pm
Hey Anton,
It seems that there is more to this than SAMWU making noise.
“A commissioner of the the South African Local Government Bargaining Council argues that there is a prima facie case against DA deputy shadow minister of public enterprises Pieter van Dalen. …
A member of the group, who did not take part in the shooting, subsequently reported the matter to the superiors.
Two of the participants were fired but nothing happened to Van Dalen. Instead, he was subsequently promoted to an MPL.
Questions will be asked as to why the DA has adopted a hands-off attitude in a such a serious case. Is it because the lives of the victims are not of political importance?”
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/columnists/2010/07/28/da-must-say-it-loud
“Sowetan is in possession of a judgment relating to the incident handed down by Advocate Pierre van Tonder, a commissioner in the South African Local Government Bargaining Council
In his judgment Van Tonder says Van Dalen and two metro police officers “without any cause or warning, started firing rubber bullets at the boys [aged 6 and 7].”
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2010/07/28/da-man-up-for-shooting-at-two-kids
Thanks Maggs
If a member of the public (politician or otherwise) fired shots at two 6 and 7 year old children for whatever reason then this is absolutely disgraceful. Would this not be a criminal act. According to the commissioner a prima facie case exists. If so why is it being handled by the SA Local Government Bargaining Council and not the police and the criminal courts as one would expect.
As a DA supporter I certainly expect them to provide clarity on this matter
The recharging of Jacob Zuma is going to be great. Justice must prevail, no one is above the law including ANC bigwigs like Bheki Cele or Nyanda.
Eric
Zuma will never be re-charged as long as Zuma is still president. Get over it.
Menzi will not do it – no matter the compelling evidence.
Nelson Mandela’s words to the Nats applied equally to the ANC – “The criminals are investigating themselves.”
So it is wrong to fight against Injustice ? There against one Justice system for the overclass and another for the underclass.
How many Citizens are in prison because they can not afford bail, R1000… R2000 for petty crime…
The ANC is so busy with “transformation” it has forgotten about Restorative Justice.
Since this alleged even occurred, Van Dalen has actually become a Member of Parliament. I agree with Anton Kleinschmidt that it seems rather strange that the ANC did not latch onto this long ago and made a big fuss.
Van Dalen’s constituency is in the Western Cape. We all know that Lynn Brown is working harder now that she is hell-bent on discrediting the DA than she ever worked as Premier, so how has this escaped her attention?
As with Anton, if these allegations are true, I certainly would like to see some sort of action taken against Van Dalen. The idea that anybody fired rubber bullets at children is abominable.
Samantha says:
August 5, 2010 at 8:33 am
Hey Sam,
Don’t hold your breath for any further action from the DA – it has been two years. As Tony Leon famously said “the role of the opposition is to oppose” or thereabouts.
But look on the bright side.
That ANC seems to be heeding public opinion.
“THE Gauteng department of roads and transport has cancelled a R71 million contract with Communications Minister Siphiwe Nyanda’s company. …
“As there was no tender process followed, no other companies were short-listed,” Gauteng roads and transport MEC Bheki Nkosi said at the time. …
“In another startling admission, Nkosi said: ‘We discovered that there are companies who could do the same service at a much lower rate.’ …
“He also said that the money Nyanda’s company would have been paid for the contract was not agreed on upfront.”
Is is nevertheless shocking that “Nkosi said nobody would be disciplined for handing out the R71million contract – although it was awarded irregularly”.
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2010/08/05/nyanda_s-r71m-deal-cancelled
Maggs is right.
I am no ANC apologist. But I have always admired the almost scary alacrity with which ANC acts against its members who are accused of wrongdoing.
We can only hope that Zille follows suit.
Thanks.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
August 5, 2010 at 9:11 am
Hey Dwork,
That is as expected from you.
Those are poor Black kids eh – so why bother at all?
No more than hewers of wood and …
Pathetic little Black buggers – shoot them, throw them in dungeons, send them to work in farms or mines.
Maggs
Its a civil matter not a criminal matter. If he publishes wrong information intentionally he’ll never work again in the media. The retractions will be printed, damages, if any, paid over following the inevitable lawsuit (which Cele has conspicuously shied away from. And he has not denied the existence of the lease, in fact, it is admitted). Case closed. Is there any criminal fraud? No. Is there any “defeating the ends of justice”? No.
Intentionally incorrect stories cause readers to lose faith in the publication and that can lead to the demise of the publication.
This reaction from the SAPS is appalling and uncalled for. This is a reporter who handed himself over and not Annias (sic) Mathe.
Gwebe and Dworky – be careful what you wish for. Approving of this type of behaviour will bite everybody including you two. Democracy means you have to grow a chin and take some knocks.
One of the greatest myths of our country’s history is that the policy Apartheid was, in of itself, the primary source of violence and oppression against the majority. It was an evil policy of course, but the primary source of violence and oppression stemmed from the National Party conflating the interests of the party and the State.
Its happening again with the ANC. I am reminded of white voters who strongly disagreed with the actions of the National Party – like having their boys sent off to die or be damaged in Angola for no reason except Party interests – but would still vote for them because they were standing up against international communism (lets not forget the Cold War).
Much like today, many voters disagree with what the ANC is doing, but are voting “for the ANC and not for Jacob Zuma” and other excuses because “its all for transformation”. All the while the monster is growing and when you finally realise what you have created it will be too late – just ask any white who could recast their votes from the bad old days. You’d find, with hindsight, that the NP wouldn’t have ever gotten near the levers of powers.
Every single time this happens in any country’s history the result is violence and oppression of the people to whit: Nazi Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, USSR, Romania, China, Cuba, Cambodia, Zimbabwe, Uganda, Myanmar, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc.
Bear that in mind when you jump to the defence of the indefensible. Your children will never forgive you.
As for this Van Dalen thing, why hasn’t he been arrested and charged?
If he committed this act then let him face the music and go down in flames.
Dworky, your comment about the ANC acting against its members is brilliant irony!
Why is it with the local government and not the police? This aspect is fishy.
But I also note that not one single case of arson or other criminality has ever seen the light of day in ANC areas where Metro Cops go around around illegally destroying and burning the shacks of the poor either…
Zoo Keeper says:
August 5, 2010 at 9:33 am
For the record, Dwork is as anti-ANC, anti-Black, anti-transformation as it comes.
On the issue of Wa Afrika – the police have been outrageous in their approach. Whatever it is that they are trying to prove just make it look like we have been invaded by mad Gestapo.
However, listening to Hartley – it does seem that Wa Afrika was given the opportunity to pitch up at a police station and he ignored that.
On Cele and the building – it seems that there are more questions than answers emerging from our dear General. Not much of what he says seems to make sense. Now there’s a similar thing going on in KZN and the Transnet building.
Maggs
From what I gather Wa Afrika was waiting for his lawyer before walking the one block to the cops shop. He was on his way, not trying to flee and waiting around in the company of police.
And you’re right, far more questions than answers are coming from the tin-pot General. Perhaps this is the kind of information that will be “classified” in the interests of “national security” in future?
Zoo Keeper says:
August 5, 2010 at 9:46 am
Hey ZooK,
Maybe he was, but according to Hartley Wa Afrika was to have been there at 9 am – the dog ate his homework (as Pierre famously said) is a poor excuse.
I think the small army pounced much later than that.
Even hacks (or scribes as the newspapers call them) should show some respect.
Maggs
Was he trying to flee? No. So why the theatre?
I think the SAPS should show some respect for the citizens. Not the other way around.
Thinking that the SAPS must be respected first places the onus in the incorrect position and places the SAPS in a dominant position over the citizen.
For the SAPS to get respect, they must first give it in bucket-loads.
Zoo Keeper says:
August 5, 2010 at 10:09 am
Hey ZooK,
If not clear in my previous posts, let me say again – I think the heavy handedness of the SAPS (or the Hawks in this instance) was way, way over the top.
It’s hard to have the kind of regard for them that it ought to have.
However, if someone is expected to be at a police station at 9 am, they must be there at 9 am – the lawyer crawling out of bed at 9 am, notwithstanding. So far the arrangement between Wa Afrika and the Hawks has not been disputed.
Even if the police are acting in a way that is horribly inappropriate, it’s best for reasonable people to behave reasonably.
Zooky, let me be clear: I do not necessarily agree with the way that the Hawks treated Mr Afrika. They acted heavy-handedly, no doubt.
But you must remember that our law enforcement faces an enormous crime problem. As Maggs suggests, it cannot operate efficiently if people like Mr Afrika flagrantly skip appointments at the Rosebank police station.
Maggs and Dworky
Perhaps we are agreed then on most aspects.
Wa Afrika was late so go and fetch him – I have no problem with the SAPS fetching him. But we are also agreed that the ostentatious show of force was wrong? Why not just send one detective and politely escort him quietly to the station?
Yes, we have a crime problem. But the answer is not for the SAPS to come across as an army ranged against the citizens. It must come across as a service to help the citizens. perhaps that way citizens would be more inclined to help the SAPS and bring the crime rate under control.
This way is the way to chaos as everyone loses faith in the SAPS and law enforcement is lost.
20 “police” to arrest 3 people… and the case is thrown out… Yet murderers and rapists get away…
They should sue and make sure that no taxpayers money is spent but the individual/groups aka the ANC.
No wonder the ANC wants to destroy *erm* “transform” the court system.
Is this not constructive dismissal?
http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article588524.ece/Swazi-minister-resigns-after-alleged-affair-with-queen
By Richard Calland
In response to Suttner last week another ANC veteran, Ronnie Kasrils, told the audience that he had not lost faith in the ANC despite its many problems and argued for a “revolution within a revolution”.
Although Suttner argued for abandoning the ANC and establishing a movement outside of the ANC that sounded remarkably like the original ANC, Kasrils insisted that the ANC can be saved from within, if only it could restore to centre-place two founding documents — the Freedom Charter and the Constitution (the country’s, that is, not the ANC’s), neither of which get more than a passing mention in the NGC papers.
I agree; he is right. There are still many good people within the ANC, there are still many good things that come from the ANC and it remains the only political organisation capable of uniting the nation across class and race.
The Democratic Alliance, despite its impressive gains in the Western Cape and the imminent acquisition of the Independent Democrats, is a very long way from attaining an equivalent or even competitive level of political legitimacy.
But the question is whether the good people have enough political space inside the ANC, or do they get crowded out by the opportunists who are determined to milk the cow dry, accumulating the means to asset-strip the state by accumulating political power within the ANC?
The things Politicians do while we are sleeping.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Local-Elections-2011/Midvaal-mayor-Piet-did-it-20110505
Corruption is everywhere. The only thing is, in western Europe it’s less obvious/visible. They’re trying to get rid of the minilening, but there is just too mucht money involved.