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	<title>Comments on: Fit and proper or not, that is the question</title>
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	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: nkululeko</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-9093</link>
		<dc:creator>nkululeko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-9093</guid>
		<description>And I return to the madness I expected to find. Again Zuma isn&#039;t guilty in terms of law because there has been no trial to determine that. Here we should ALL remember that the public have their own views of what is right or wrong and they aren&#039;t always in keeping with the law. Zuma may still be president even though he is morally bankrupt.
There is a disturbing trend for Ishmael to refer to sex lately. I think he&#039;s not getting enough, someone pleases help him out. I find his suggestions rather odd because criminal law and the law of delict BOTH provide certain guidelines for us to live in a peaceful and ordered society. These guidelines are taken from morals essetially. The state therefore does exert some dort of morality. How this is done is another debate, maybe you should look up on the Hart-delvin debate. Such morality would be the age when one marries, crimes of murder, rape, theft, statutory rape. Also delicts such as those forming part of the actio iniuriarum and what qualifies as a legal duty stems from a moral duty. The law then governs how you have sex with your wife... You can&#039;t force her (rape) and you can&#039;t live out your fetish to beat her within an inch of her life just for your pleasure.

That being said, are there any ORIGINAL reasons why Zuma&#039;s lack of legal guilt for a matter that the courts have not decided on, should compel the thinking public that Zuma is a good man who&#039;s of the finest morals and would lead this country forward in terms of development and a moral regeneration?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I return to the madness I expected to find. Again Zuma isn&#8217;t guilty in terms of law because there has been no trial to determine that. Here we should ALL remember that the public have their own views of what is right or wrong and they aren&#8217;t always in keeping with the law. Zuma may still be president even though he is morally bankrupt.<br />
There is a disturbing trend for Ishmael to refer to sex lately. I think he&#8217;s not getting enough, someone pleases help him out. I find his suggestions rather odd because criminal law and the law of delict BOTH provide certain guidelines for us to live in a peaceful and ordered society. These guidelines are taken from morals essetially. The state therefore does exert some dort of morality. How this is done is another debate, maybe you should look up on the Hart-delvin debate. Such morality would be the age when one marries, crimes of murder, rape, theft, statutory rape. Also delicts such as those forming part of the actio iniuriarum and what qualifies as a legal duty stems from a moral duty. The law then governs how you have sex with your wife&#8230; You can&#8217;t force her (rape) and you can&#8217;t live out your fetish to beat her within an inch of her life just for your pleasure.</p>
<p>That being said, are there any ORIGINAL reasons why Zuma&#8217;s lack of legal guilt for a matter that the courts have not decided on, should compel the thinking public that Zuma is a good man who&#8217;s of the finest morals and would lead this country forward in terms of development and a moral regeneration?</p>
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		<title>By: Dumisani Mkhize</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8982</link>
		<dc:creator>Dumisani Mkhize</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8982</guid>
		<description>Erratum:
&quot;...and not his won&quot; should read &quot;...and not his own.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erratum:<br />
&#8220;&#8230;and not his won&#8221; should read &#8220;&#8230;and not his own.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dumisani Mkhize</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8979</link>
		<dc:creator>Dumisani Mkhize</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8979</guid>
		<description>Ishmael Malale wrote: “…The ANC is not being voted on the basis of personalities but policy imperatives and its historical significance as a political liberator. We still need to be liberated from economic bondage that is why we still regard the ANC as a liberation movement. …”

I will agree with you on the one point that ANC is voted on the basis of its historical significance as a political liberator. But I agree with Mpho Mogadingoane that personalities drive the choices people make about who should be the next ANC leader – consequently the next President of South Africa (as things stand currently). As ANC supporters, we vote mostly with our hearts and less with our heads.

Allow me to give an example. We have been made to believe that Zuma is pro-labour and pro-poor, while Mbeki is pro-business and pro-rich. 

Zuma, on his overseas expeditions, has always assured the foreign investors that the current policies are not going to change. He has been at pains at almost all one-on-one interviews in the country and overseas to explain that the policies of the ANC are a collective and not individual. What this means therefore is that Mbeki has been implementing ANC (collective) policies, and not his won. (Why does he get the blame?)

If these policies are not going to change (according to Zuma), why then the view that Zuma is pro-poor and pro-labour while Mbeki is pro-rich and business? If the policies are the same, one can only conclude that the difference is on personalities.

Zuma is running and winning support mostly on sympathy (emotions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ishmael Malale wrote: “…The ANC is not being voted on the basis of personalities but policy imperatives and its historical significance as a political liberator. We still need to be liberated from economic bondage that is why we still regard the ANC as a liberation movement. …”</p>
<p>I will agree with you on the one point that ANC is voted on the basis of its historical significance as a political liberator. But I agree with Mpho Mogadingoane that personalities drive the choices people make about who should be the next ANC leader – consequently the next President of South Africa (as things stand currently). As ANC supporters, we vote mostly with our hearts and less with our heads.</p>
<p>Allow me to give an example. We have been made to believe that Zuma is pro-labour and pro-poor, while Mbeki is pro-business and pro-rich. </p>
<p>Zuma, on his overseas expeditions, has always assured the foreign investors that the current policies are not going to change. He has been at pains at almost all one-on-one interviews in the country and overseas to explain that the policies of the ANC are a collective and not individual. What this means therefore is that Mbeki has been implementing ANC (collective) policies, and not his won. (Why does he get the blame?)</p>
<p>If these policies are not going to change (according to Zuma), why then the view that Zuma is pro-poor and pro-labour while Mbeki is pro-rich and business? If the policies are the same, one can only conclude that the difference is on personalities.</p>
<p>Zuma is running and winning support mostly on sympathy (emotions).</p>
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		<title>By: The Big Slipper</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8868</link>
		<dc:creator>The Big Slipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8868</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t mind successful black people, as long as they deserve it.

Come to think of it, I don&#039;t mind any successful person if they deserve it.

Lindelani, could it perhaps be that you&#039;re looking for excuses for your own lack of success? I know people who, like you, are very brave in internet forums, where they can hide who they are in real life.

Often they&#039;re introverted and jealous of other people, but too cowardly to stand up for themselves, so they invent an alter-ego online, and then act like a tough guy, bullying people and saying outrageous things to shock and offend, because they know in real life they don&#039;t stand a chance.

They also pretend to be much more important and successful than they really are - bookkeepers pretend they&#039;re CEOs, and legal secretaries pretend they&#039;re attorneys. There&#039;s nothing wrong with those jobs of course, but sometimes people feel inferior to others with more degrees, titles, etc.

Just some thoughts Lindelani, which you&#039;ll probably disregard because I&#039;m a white racist who would kill all black people if I could and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Get a life dude. Seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mind successful black people, as long as they deserve it.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, I don&#8217;t mind any successful person if they deserve it.</p>
<p>Lindelani, could it perhaps be that you&#8217;re looking for excuses for your own lack of success? I know people who, like you, are very brave in internet forums, where they can hide who they are in real life.</p>
<p>Often they&#8217;re introverted and jealous of other people, but too cowardly to stand up for themselves, so they invent an alter-ego online, and then act like a tough guy, bullying people and saying outrageous things to shock and offend, because they know in real life they don&#8217;t stand a chance.</p>
<p>They also pretend to be much more important and successful than they really are &#8211; bookkeepers pretend they&#8217;re CEOs, and legal secretaries pretend they&#8217;re attorneys. There&#8217;s nothing wrong with those jobs of course, but sometimes people feel inferior to others with more degrees, titles, etc.</p>
<p>Just some thoughts Lindelani, which you&#8217;ll probably disregard because I&#8217;m a white racist who would kill all black people if I could and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.</p>
<p>Get a life dude. Seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Retsrov</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8861</link>
		<dc:creator>Retsrov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8861</guid>
		<description>Bob Dylan also said this - 
...
Yes, &#039;n&#039; how many years can some people exist
Before they&#039;re allowed to be free?
Yes, &#039;n&#039; how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn&#039;t see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin&#039; in the wind,
The answer is blowin&#039; in the wind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Dylan also said this &#8211;<br />
&#8230;<br />
Yes, &#8216;n&#8217; how many years can some people exist<br />
Before they&#8217;re allowed to be free?<br />
Yes, &#8216;n&#8217; how many times can a man turn his head,<br />
Pretending he just doesn&#8217;t see?<br />
The answer, my friend, is blowin&#8217; in the wind,<br />
The answer is blowin&#8217; in the wind.</p>
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		<title>By: ozoneblue</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8859</link>
		<dc:creator>ozoneblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8859</guid>
		<description>An now for something completely different.

&quot;THE soon-to-be disbanded Scorpions yesterday raided seven premises countrywide, some linked to a defence firm jointly owned by former armed forces chief Siphiwe Nyanda and businessman Fana Hlongwane.

The raids are related to an arms deal fraud and corruption investigation into a £1.5-billion (about R21-billion) fighter jet purchase.

Teams of Scorpions investigators descended on the offices and homes of Hlongwane, Zimbabwean arms dealer John Bredenkamp and others thought to be involved in ensuring BAe Systems got the contract to supply the SANDF with 24 Hawk 100 trainer jets and 28 Gripen fighter jets at a bid higher than that of competitors during the 1999 deal.

At the time, Hlongwane was an adviser to the late defence minister, Joe Modise, on whose watch the controversial multibillion-rand arms deal was concluded.&quot;

www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=893238

And that is not all folks, the best is yet to come:

&quot;The BAe Systems contracts are worth more than R15 billion.

They are alleged by opponents of the deal to have paid at least one Mbeki cabinet minister around R10 million.

The premises that were raided include those of Zimbabwe arms dealer Johan Bredenkamp, a consultant to BAe and an arms supplier to Mugabe, and Fana Hlongwane, another BAe consultant.

However sources in the NPA told The Citizen five other premises were also raided.

Former ANC member Andrew Feinstein earlier in the year confirmed that the Serious Fraud Office had been in touch with him and that he had been co-operating with their inquiry&quot;

www.citizen.co.za/index/article.aspx?pDesc=84066,1,22

As Bobby Dylan said - the times they are a changing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An now for something completely different.</p>
<p>&#8220;THE soon-to-be disbanded Scorpions yesterday raided seven premises countrywide, some linked to a defence firm jointly owned by former armed forces chief Siphiwe Nyanda and businessman Fana Hlongwane.</p>
<p>The raids are related to an arms deal fraud and corruption investigation into a £1.5-billion (about R21-billion) fighter jet purchase.</p>
<p>Teams of Scorpions investigators descended on the offices and homes of Hlongwane, Zimbabwean arms dealer John Bredenkamp and others thought to be involved in ensuring BAe Systems got the contract to supply the SANDF with 24 Hawk 100 trainer jets and 28 Gripen fighter jets at a bid higher than that of competitors during the 1999 deal.</p>
<p>At the time, Hlongwane was an adviser to the late defence minister, Joe Modise, on whose watch the controversial multibillion-rand arms deal was concluded.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=893238" rel="nofollow">http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=893238</a></p>
<p>And that is not all folks, the best is yet to come:</p>
<p>&#8220;The BAe Systems contracts are worth more than R15 billion.</p>
<p>They are alleged by opponents of the deal to have paid at least one Mbeki cabinet minister around R10 million.</p>
<p>The premises that were raided include those of Zimbabwe arms dealer Johan Bredenkamp, a consultant to BAe and an arms supplier to Mugabe, and Fana Hlongwane, another BAe consultant.</p>
<p>However sources in the NPA told The Citizen five other premises were also raided.</p>
<p>Former ANC member Andrew Feinstein earlier in the year confirmed that the Serious Fraud Office had been in touch with him and that he had been co-operating with their inquiry&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.citizen.co.za/index/article.aspx?pDesc=84066,1,22" rel="nofollow">http://www.citizen.co.za/index/article.aspx?pDesc=84066,1,22</a></p>
<p>As Bobby Dylan said &#8211; the times they are a changing.</p>
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		<title>By: Retsrov</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8858</link>
		<dc:creator>Retsrov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8858</guid>
		<description>lindelani maseko // Nov 27, 2008 at 4:30 pm 

Big boy lindelani,

How I have missed you kid.  I love it when you whistle through your zulu sphincter ani.  Take this dude : Most whites are superior to you and like it or not nothing will change……oooops now I’ve made a big mistake, I’ve stooped to your level.  

I love to see a successful black man, it shows that some of your brothers can actually survive without the white-boss.  I am so sick and tired of seeing useless blacks standing on the street corners and when I drive past them, they point at their empty stomachs. (I guess in their minds it goes something like this: you owe me you white bastard).  On the other hand, I am sure you get absolute thrills seeing whites beg on the streets.  

I’ve said before, I think some big white “boerseun” hurt you when you were a small picaninny.  Grow up, be smart, loose your hatred, you are way to young to be so bitter.

To all the other constitutional experts, may I marry a second wife or two or three ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lindelani maseko // Nov 27, 2008 at 4:30 pm </p>
<p>Big boy lindelani,</p>
<p>How I have missed you kid.  I love it when you whistle through your zulu sphincter ani.  Take this dude : Most whites are superior to you and like it or not nothing will change……oooops now I’ve made a big mistake, I’ve stooped to your level.  </p>
<p>I love to see a successful black man, it shows that some of your brothers can actually survive without the white-boss.  I am so sick and tired of seeing useless blacks standing on the street corners and when I drive past them, they point at their empty stomachs. (I guess in their minds it goes something like this: you owe me you white bastard).  On the other hand, I am sure you get absolute thrills seeing whites beg on the streets.  </p>
<p>I’ve said before, I think some big white “boerseun” hurt you when you were a small picaninny.  Grow up, be smart, loose your hatred, you are way to young to be so bitter.</p>
<p>To all the other constitutional experts, may I marry a second wife or two or three ?</p>
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		<title>By: slumdweller</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8850</link>
		<dc:creator>slumdweller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8850</guid>
		<description>The perfect scam needs a &#039;Patsy&#039; I feel Zuma was the &quot;Arms Deal Patsy&#039;.
He can wiggle as much as he likes the end result will be the same, President or no.

Perhaps to get the message to the less educated in the population we should talk in houses, schools and hospitals instead of millions,

Shaik arranged a bribe of 50 or 100 houses that won&#039;t be built in Orlando every year for Zuma.
Or perhaps a High School in Ndevana was paid to Zuma this year.
Maybe Zuma&#039;s trial is costing a Hospital in Orange Farm.
The roads in Kwa Mashu will have to wait while we make the conditions right for Zuma to be President.

Then see if they understand or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The perfect scam needs a &#8216;Patsy&#8217; I feel Zuma was the &#8220;Arms Deal Patsy&#8217;.<br />
He can wiggle as much as he likes the end result will be the same, President or no.</p>
<p>Perhaps to get the message to the less educated in the population we should talk in houses, schools and hospitals instead of millions,</p>
<p>Shaik arranged a bribe of 50 or 100 houses that won&#8217;t be built in Orlando every year for Zuma.<br />
Or perhaps a High School in Ndevana was paid to Zuma this year.<br />
Maybe Zuma&#8217;s trial is costing a Hospital in Orange Farm.<br />
The roads in Kwa Mashu will have to wait while we make the conditions right for Zuma to be President.</p>
<p>Then see if they understand or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8831</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8831</guid>
		<description>lindelani, you Zulu racist, you - You are also welcome to go comment on the new twist to the morality of Zuma debate on ANC, Know your Constitution below. Ozoneblue, you too. Anybody is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lindelani, you Zulu racist, you &#8211; You are also welcome to go comment on the new twist to the morality of Zuma debate on ANC, Know your Constitution below. Ozoneblue, you too. Anybody is.</p>
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		<title>By: lindelani maseko</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/fit-and-proper-or-not-that-is-the-question/#comment-8816</link>
		<dc:creator>lindelani maseko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=736#comment-8816</guid>
		<description>I watched a special assignment last night

Just a friend reminder to all our black brothers

have you seen how frustrated whites get when they see a successful black person?

Have you see how how happy and superiour they get when seeing on the streets begging?

Like it or not white people hate us and I personally very much HATE them too

and nothing will change</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I watched a special assignment last night</p>
<p>Just a friend reminder to all our black brothers</p>
<p>have you seen how frustrated whites get when they see a successful black person?</p>
<p>Have you see how how happy and superiour they get when seeing on the streets begging?</p>
<p>Like it or not white people hate us and I personally very much HATE them too</p>
<p>and nothing will change</p>
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