Constitutional Hill

Free State judgment raises many questions about democracy in the ANC

The recent Constitutional Court judgment, declaring invalid the ANC Free State elective conference in June 2012, raises many questions about the integrity and fairness of internal democratic processes in the ANC. Although the judgment explicitly states that it does not relate to or affect the rights of delegates “who have been elected at properly constituted branch general meetings of the Free State province to serve as delegates at any other conference of the party”, it does suggest that all may not be well with elective processes inside the ANC.

From a Constitutional Law perspective the judgment is important as it affirms the strong link between internal party democracy and the right of citizens to take part in the political process and to vote in elections – a right guaranteed by section 19 of the Bill of Rights. Earlier decisions of the Constitutional Court – including the New National Party case dealing with the requirement that only voters in possession of green ID books could register and vote in elections – were criticised for the rather narrow and formalistic view of democracy. This judgment can be read as a slight correction on those earlier cases, as it embraces a richer and more nuanced conception of democracy.

The judgment reminds us that the health of our democracy depends on the health of democracy within political parties, as we mostly vote for political parties and not for candidates representing those parties. The leaders of political parties have a huge influence on who gets selected to represent us at various levels of government. Where political parties deny some of its own members the right to take part in leadership elections or where these internal leadership elections are corrupted by foul play and cheating, those political parties undermine our democracy.

All the judgments in the Free State case confirmed this link between the right to vote, democracy and internal party democracy. Thus Justice Yacoob stated that:

the right to participate in the activities of a political party confers on every political party the duty to act lawfully and in accordance with its own constitution. This means that our Constitution gives every member of every political party the right to exact compliance with the constitution of a political party by the leadership of that party.

In his minority decision, Froneman confirms that there “should be little doubt that the right to participate in the activities of a political party imposes a duty on every political party to act lawfully and in accordance with its own constitution”. In the majority judgment Moseneke and Jafta also affirms that the purpose of section 19 is not only to prevent the “wholesale denial of political rights to citizens of the country”, but also to ensure that political parties play their allotted role in our democracy.

Our democracy is founded on a multi-party system of government, but unlike the past electoral system that was based on geographic voting constituencies, the present electoral system for electing members of the national assembly and of the provincial legislatures must “result, in general, in proportional representation”. This means a person who intends to vote in national or provincial elections must vote for a political party registered for the purpose of contesting the elections and not for a candidate. It is the registered party that nominates candidates for the election on regional and national party lists. Political parties are therefore indispensable conduits for the enjoyment of the right to vote in elections.

If one chooses to become a member of a political party and wants to take part in its internal elections, one has a right to do so in accordance with the democratic rules of that party. The exercise of the right is protected not only against external interference but also against interference arising from within the party. It is true that section 19 of the Constitution does not spell out how members of a political party should exercise the right to participate in the activities of their party. This is left largely to political parties themselves to regulate. However, political parties may not adopt constitutions which are inconsistent with section 19. This means that the Constitution of a political party that limits or extinguishes the rights of members of that party freely and fairly to take part in its internal elections, could be declared invalid by a court as being in breach of section 19 of the Bill of Rights.

The difference between the minority and majority judgments relate to how they dealt with the “bare denials” of Gwede Mantashe that the Provincial Conference of the ANC in the Free State was tainted by any illegality and/or any breach of the ANC’s constitution and by the “bare denials” of Mantashe that any branch delegate not authorised to do so attended the provincial conference and that any branch delegate entitled to attend was denied the opportunity to do so. The minority accepted these broad denials as creating a factual dispute which, in terms of the rules applicable to cases dealt with on the papers, had to mean that the version of Mantashe had to be accepted.

The majority looked more closely at the papers and found that despite these broad denials, Mantashe did not deny many of the very detailed allegations of vote rigging and irregularity alleged by the applicants in this case. The court therefore accepted these allegations – never denied by Mantashe – as correct and found that there was widespread irregularity, if not fraud, involved in the Free State elective conference.

These irregularities include the failure to provide ANC members with an opportunity to lodge objections about the accuracy of the preliminary audits of branches, despite the fact that the ANC rules itself provided for such a process.

In another case the court accepted that the appellants had shown that at least 10 members of the Moses Mabhida branch were disallowed from participating in the elective bi-annual general meeting in breach of the right to participate in the activities of the ANC.

In another case no audit was conducted on Fidel Castro branch, thus disqualifying members of that branch from being represented at the Free State elective conference. This, it is alleged, was done because the Fidel Castro branch supported the so-called forces of change. This failure amounted to conduct inconsistent with the Membership Audit Guidelines and was thus an irregularity.

Another example of the manner in which forces for change were thwarted irregularly is described by the Constitutional Court in the following detail.

Mr Ramakatsa, the main deponent to the application, claims that his branch, the Joyce Boom branch (Ward 25) held a legitimate branch meeting on 6 May 2012; that the meeting was quorate and that branch delegates were properly elected to represent the branch at regional and provincial conferences…. His complaint is that his branch was excluded from the Provincial Conference and persons nominated for PEC leadership were not even placed on the ballot at the Provincial Conference. He further points out that there was no parallel branch structure in competition with the Joyce Boom branch. To this detailed complaint, the respondents say no more than that the branch meeting never took place on 6 May 2012. The answer also states that the membership of the branch was not audited in time for the branch to have delegates at the regional and provincial conferences. In effect, the answer admits that this branch and its members were not entitled to and did not participate in the conference. Other than the bare denial, the respondents do not furnish even the slightest evidence that the meeting did not take place or of the invitations they sent to the branch to submit to audit. This conduct is inconsistent with the requirements of the ANC’s constitution.

In other cases several NEC members of the national audit team who were deployed to branches were supposed to attend fresh meetings of branches to select delegates but failed to attend such meetings. As a result, the meetings did not take place. This failure had the effect of denying the affected branches representation at the Provincial Conference. However, strangely, the branches which were due to have fresh electoral meetings were represented by “delegates” at the Provincial Conference. This means that the “delegates” represented the branches concerned in a manner inconsistent with the ANC’s constitution because they were not elected at a properly constituted branch general meeting.

Reading through these list of irregularities, it is difficult not to conclude that those in charge of the Free State ANC and some NEC members who supported the re-election of the PEC (and perhaps President Jacob Zuma), at best turned a blind eye to serious irregularities and pre-conference vote rigging and at worst participated in it.

It might be that no such irregularities occurred when, several months later, branches were asked to nominate candidates for Mangaung and to select delegates to vote at Mangaung. The Court was not asked to and did not make a finding about whether the selection of delegates to Mangaung was unlawful or not. But given the systemic nature of the irregularities in the Free State in an elective conference which took place just a few months earlier, given the fact that Kgalema Motlanthe did not manage to receive the support of a single Free State delegate at the Free State nominations conference, and in the absence of evidence that the irregularities were dealt with properly by Gwede Mantashe who, in any case, had a vested interest in the outcome of the process, it might not be unreasonable to question to the legitimacy of all the Free State delegates represented at Mangaung.

Given the fact that many ANC branch members would probably have voted for President Zuma despite Nkandlagate, despite Marikana, despite the Secrecy Bill and the Traditional Courts Bill, and despite the fact that Zuma had received more than R7 million from various benefactors, some of whom he later did favours for, these irregularities might very well not have made a difference. But it does raise questions about the manner in which internal elections within the ANC are managed and whether the outcome of such elections can, without more, be deemed as being legitimate.

  • wandile

    So what will be next step now.Can the so called forces of change go to court again and nullify the manguang conference because free state delegates were allow to particapate?

  • Blue Ozone

    “The judgment reminds us that the health of our democracy depends on the health of democracy within political parties,”

    Absolute rubbish.

    If we don’t like the way democracy is handled /abused inside a party we CHOOSE to vote for we can CHOOSE to vote for another party. That is called democracy.

  • Blue Ozone

    How does it feel Liewe Pierretjie. To be such a sad little loser, after expending all that energy and your desperate obsessive attempts to smear cde Zuma, THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN.

    LOL.

  • Blue Ozone

    And I hope those spoiled brats who don’t have the guts or the conviction to vote for another political part because they CHOOSE to stay on the ANC gravy train, therefore instead of exercising their democratic rights rather runs to the courts to try and get their way

    - I hope the ANC expels the lot of them.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    I’m of the view that the CC was wrong to interfere to the extent it did in what is an internal procedural dispute.

    An urgent hearing in what involves ten or twenty disgruntled members out of more than a million seem like taking a sledgehammer to crack a peanut.

    Nobody is forced to belong to a political party – if they don’t like the way the ANC functions they should leave and form their own satellite blog (WDYS Dworky).

    What’s next – football fans getting to say who should be taking the penalty shots?

    Oh well I guess Moseneke got his final say …

  • Mayaya

    I have read this judgment and it strenghtens our democracy. Firstly, it shows that internally party democracy is linked to our rights as citizens. By so doing it opens the door to checking abuse by those who do not respect democracy but simple want power for their ends. Secondly, it furthers procedural law by clarifies procural law that bear denial does not raise genuine dispute of fact. More is needed.

    The ANC’s treat to expel those who take it to court will open the ANC to futher litigation as this judgment makes clear.

    If I was Malema’s legal advisor, I would take the ANC to court for arbitrary decidions, citing that what he did was never a dismissable offence in te ANC

  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    December 19, 2012 at 13:18 pm

    What did you idiots think horizontal application of the Bill of Rights meant? It only applies to those nasty mhlungus? LOL!

    Would you care to clue us in on what you understand by ‘the rule of law’?

  • Chris (Not the right wing guy)

    I agree 100% with the judgement.
    That is all I have to say.

  • Blue Ozone

    Mayaya
    December 19, 2012 at 15:29 pm

    And why – if you and your Mr. Malema do not like the ANCs disciplinary procedures don’t you just vote for another party. Let me guess you are corrupt opportunists and the ANC is the key to government to unlock all the tenders. It is not about politic choice or democracy at all.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Chris (Not the right wing guy)
    December 19, 2012 at 18:52 pm

    Hey Right-Wing-Guy,

    “I agree 100% with the judgement.”

    Courts interfering in internal matters of a political party may just come back to bite us.

    The CC may have opened itself up for a period of sustained pressure and deservedly so.

    IFP, NFP, COPE, DA, UDM …

    The CC may have opened the floodgates upon itself!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    @PdV

    Re leave to appeal -
    Thus Justice Yacoob stated that:

    the right to participate in the activities of a political party confers on every political party the duty to act lawfully and in accordance with its own constitution. This means that our Constitution gives every member of every political party the right to exact compliance with the constitution of a political party by the leadership of that party.

    But he also said :

    The appeal
    [37] In so far as the appeal is concerned, I agree with Froneman J, that it should be dismissed whether leave had been properly granted or not.

    The net effect of this judgement was not material overall to the ANC’s 53rd National Conference and election of its office bearers – all it did was delay proceedings a bit and ruffle feathers. It’s not clear, for example, why it could not have been said in the notice that the branch reps elected in the FS were not affected.

    It’s hard to dispel the feeling that this was a certain judge getting even with the ANC and causing as much angst as is , er, judicially possible.

  • Mayaya

    Blue Ozone. All I am saying is that internal party democracy is not beyond the court’s reach. That being so, Malema is desperate to return to the ANC and what better way than to say what he said and did was never a punishable act in the ANC. In fact if he could produce evidence showing similar things were done by him earlier (to Mbeki) and others (Vavi on matches to Zim and Swaziland) and no disciplinary action was ever taken. That then means these were acceptable things to say or do.

    So the ANC was acting arbitrarily and with caprice in charging him. He must forget about the loved political conspiracy.

    By the way I love the ANC and am not joining any other party. What I am saying is that if we love democracy, then we must defend it even when those we loath are denied that democratic right.

    Now chill Blue Ozone stop huffing and puffing and start thinking a bit.

  • Blue Ozone

    Mayaya
    December 19, 2012 at 22:49 pm

    “By the way I love the ANC and am not joining any other party. What I am saying is that if we love democracy, then we must defend it even when those we loath are denied that democratic right.”

    Well if you love the ANC then you accept the decisions of its leadership and its disciplinary procedures. Otherwise you can go and join another party – that is your democratic right.

    Please show me where Vavi ever dragged the ANC’s name and reputation through the mud like this. Swearing at and hurling racist insults at a journalist at a internationally broadcast media conference. Vavi the same as Malema – you must be joking my friend.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpIcwctC7nQ

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 19, 2012 at 19:37 pm

    This is absolutely absurd. Just now my nine year old boy is going to drag me to the CC because I grounded based on hearsay and not facts, thus infringing his “constitutional rights”.

    I mean where do you start drawing a line. Should we drag the DA to the CC too for Anti Zille behaving like a tyrant, or should every disgruntled career politician get a fair shot at becoming leaders of their respective parties – or else face the CC?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozone-flavoured Person

    Speaking for myself, I would rather ride out the tumult of the ANC’s robust yet consensual contestation regarding who is to be democratically designated to bear the spotted mantle of leadership than be savaged by a dancing monkey who mocks our legislature by arbitrarily deploying a supersized-coffee carrier to run its NA caucus!

    Thanks.

  • Olds

    So, we have the democratic right to vote for a party with a democratic constitution? Can we therefor be found to be aiding and abetting a law breaker if we democratically vote for a communist or facist party?

  • Olds

    The majority of the country endorse kleptocracy and doing as little as possible for a slice of the tax pie. That this pie is dwindling can be dealt with later. Anybody outside this country seen to be aiding this system can always be accused later of colonialism and oppression.

    It works, sort of.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mayaya
    December 19, 2012 at 22:49 pm

    Mayaya,

    There’s a fine line between (judicial) intervention and interference.

    I think the line has been crossed in this judgement.

    While Froneman may have been too harsh in contemplating the leave to appeal, he’s pretty much summed up what ought to have been the CC position.

    Will the Chokers (aka the Proteas) players who are left out of the teams now be able to take this to the CC?

    Will soccer fans now take outcomes of games, where the referee erred when awarding a penalty, to the CC?

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    December 20, 2012 at 8:34 am

    We will see when the blog’s Primus Ignoramus goes to the CC for an order making his son captain of the Provicial Cricket team if they are prepared to accommodate him.

  • Vuyo

    Funny thing is that the media is pretty silent about this judgment. The same media that writes columns against any and every finding against any black person, the ANC or government.
    Why? Obviously because it would likely delegitimize the election not only of Zuma, but that of Ramaphosa, the scion of the paymasters of our media.

    LOL! Isn’t it amazing that we were told that the ANC post 2007 was moving left, when in reality its led by a regressive tribalist who is funded by dodgy big business and a deputy who has been in the pocket of London based capital for close on decade. If you require more evidence of the SACP and COSATU selling out the workers and poor, look no further.

  • Olds

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    December 20, 2012 at 1:57 am

    Absolutely! I see clearly now why I should vote for uncle Zuma instead of auntie Zille. He has more rythm, has the balls to wear endangered animals and do not savagely beat people with the law whilst conning us teagirls that we could be important.

    It is all about style. How dumb of me to think that governments should be about governing.

  • Blue Ozone

    Vuyo
    December 20, 2012 at 9:45 am

    “Isn’t it amazing that we were told that the ANC post 2007 was moving left, when in reality its led by a regressive tribalist who is funded by dodgy big business and a deputy who has been in the pocket of London based capital for close on decade. If you require more evidence of the SACP and COSATU selling out the workers and poor, look no further.”

    That is a fair observation. However you fail to grasp that the ANC has much like the CPC realised that global capitalism is an inevitable part of the modern reality that needs to be managed in a centralised planned economy in order to achieve the objective of National Reconstruction.

    It is not DA style hands-off “free market” ideology at all.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Vuyo
    December 20, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Well said Vuyo.

    “Funny thing is that the media is pretty silent about this judgment.”

    Re : “If you require more evidence of the SACP and COSATU selling out the workers and poor, look no further.” – COSATU and its affiliates have investment arms so they cannot be pro-worker or pro-poor.

  • proudly south Africa

    Blue Ozone your definition or explanation of ‘democracy’ is fraught with serious inaccuracies: I believe that what democracy is is not one’s view or opinion of it but what is generally acceptable to be! To suggest those unhappy with non-compliance to internal constituted processes are free to leave as a remedy to fraudulent activities is extremely worrisome! You are.like the guy who sees nothing wrong with the President’s looting!

  • Gwebecimele

    Apparently Ramaphosa is good for business, farmers, mineworkers, unions,investors, rural poor etc.

    Cosatu is the biggest looser inMangaung and Vavi is few steps behind Malema.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Chris (not the right wing guy!)
    December 20, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Right-Wing-Guy,

    PI’s son has been nine for the past 3 years!

    Anyway – dual membership of political parties is generally frowned upon.

    Surely this would be unconstitutional? Anti-competitive?

    There may even be issues with names like Africa Muslim Party, Brett’s Christian Party …

  • Blue Ozone

    proudly south Africa
    December 20, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Sorry. I must be old-school then. Believing that you have political freedom to choose an alternative political party if you are unhappy with the leadership/processes in the one you are currently supporting apparently seems absolutely bizarre.

    Therefore we have so many opportunists latching onto the ANC – as a vehicle for self-enrichment, if they don’t get their way they run to the courts now claiming all sort of conspiracies and the doctrine of “constitutional rights”. They cannot for one moment imagine simply voting for somebody else.

    That I claim is counter productive to “democracy”, if you don’t like the DA/ANC/COPE etc you don’t vote for somebody else, you take them to the CC instead who I assume have no other serious responsibilities than to settle petty political party squabbles.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 20, 2012 at 11:07 am

    LOL.

    I believe we should take both the DA and the ANC to court for not complying with the constitutional imperative to address the “demographic imbalances in” South Africa. I want to see at least 8.361% Whites in the ANC and at least 82.567% Africans in the DA. I also want to see more Black Atheists being appointed as “dominees” in our Christian Churches!

  • Oupoot

    IMO, the actions of the Freestate ANC clearly shows the trend in the ANC of slowly eroding its socialist & democratic policies & practices in favour of more nationalistic policies: Secrecy Bill, Traditional leaders bill, subverting govt to protect elite, etc. With moderates like Mothlante & Manuel leaving the ANC, I anticipate this trend to increase. More and more moderates & social-democrats will leave the ANC, enhancing the relative power of nationalists within the party, further undermining socialist and democratic policies & practices within the ANC, even its own constitution, which it will be extremely loath to change.

    Many will still vote for the ANC out of sheer loyalty, but will be be disgruntled or very reluctant voters. But most I feel will simply abstain from voting because there is no party representing their policies choices.

    Hopefully at some point in the next few years, there would be mobilisation of social-democrats to form their own party to contest the power of the nationalist (ANC) and liberal democrats (DA). this will most likely begin in the Western Cape when the abuse of power by the DA becomes untenable for the electorate and the ANC’s nationalistic policies has lost lure for the urban moderates. Alternatively, Gauteng with its mostly urban population, or the Eastern Cape or North West where a Zulu dominated nationalistic ANC is rejected by the rural, relatively more moderate Tshwane & Xhosa voters.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Given the colossal role of the ANC central administrative body in a political system run almost exclusively by PR, the “systemic” lack of democracy within the ANC in Free State suggests also a systemic lack of democracy obstructing the electorate as a whole.

    In this way, the Mangaung conference has opened up a further struggle for democracy, requiring a review of the nature and effect of the electoral law.

    With the ANC’s internal irregularities exposed to full view by the Court, Zuma’s re-election has placed electoral reform on the national agenda.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=348083&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Gwebecimele

    Memezi is back through the eye of the needle unlike Phosa, Mbalula and others.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 20, 2012 at 16:12 pm

    What’s new maggs? Show me one election, especially in Africa, where the results where not contested by a disgruntled minority. It appears that no one are willing to accept the results of a democratic election any more. It is sad but it is true, the honour, the decorum the moral backbone to congratulate the winner and man up to a loss all gone – run to the courts whenever you are unhappy about whatever entitlement you believe should be coming your way

    - another sign of our times, of a profoundly sick society, more to come.

  • Blue Ozone

    Fuck. We have Pierre De Vos, prominent Apartheid Stellenbosch graduandi, now quoted to be in a position to scrutinise and evaluate even the internal electoral processes of the ANC.

    I say, fuck democracy or the people, let PIERRE DE VOS become PRESIDENT. Viva PIERRE DE VOS! Viva.

  • Blue Ozone

    Oh. Election Fraud once again – the global battle cry of the sorry LOSER.

    Election Fraud? Obama Won More Than 99 Percent Of The Vote In More Than 100 Ohio Precincts”

    http://www.infowars.com/fraud-obama-won-more-than-99-percent-of-the-vote-in-more-than-100-ohio-precincts-2/

  • Vincent

    I listen to Gwede Mantashe at his New Age breakfast presentation (Bloemfontein),morning live,…every where you find the disgruntle ,ANC member who take the anc to court you find the same lawyer,..my take is, every time you find membership being riddled. To benefit the men who art in Inkandla u find Gwede,..all the mess you find in the ANC membership, its always Gwede..who never responded to any Quiries of any faction that supported Motlanthe… From today gwede is now as Mr remote controll…

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Bluish-earth-protector guy

    “Fuck. We have Pierre De Vos, prominent Apartheid Stellenbosch graduand…”

    I can never understand why you omit the part about Stell being a BRODERBOND place too!

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Our people have spoken, loud and clear, once again demonstrating the futility of the WHITE LIBERAL media’s relentless campaign of anti Zumaism!

  • Olds

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    December 21, 2012 at 5:39 am

    THAT explains why it is the last outpost of science and technology in South Africa.

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele says:
    December 20, 2012 at 18:32 pm

    Did you see Enoch Godongwana on TV last night telling the media the ANC was moving the land redistribution paradigm from ‘willing buyer – willing seller’ to ‘just and equitable’ compensation.
    Evidently they read Pierre’s blog.

    Someone should tell him De Vos did only half the research where land ownership is concerned. His blog does not tell the whole story….

    Olds, want to see some background on Enoch Godongwana?

  • Brett Nortje

    Hey, isn’t the Mangaung bom plot starting to stink?

    The ANC stemvee make the NP stemvee look like rocket scientists by comparison…..

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years!

    Brett Nortje
    December 21, 2012 at 9:13 am

    Hey Mr Brett,

    This last year has not been good for you and I – there was not much I insulted you over. It’s the mutt-head Ozone Guy who’s ruined the friendship.

    So what say you that we call a truce and go back to the good old days when you were the right-wing, counter-revolutionary, reactionary, GENOCIDE-claiming, racist, goofy WHITE guy (also bullshitter) and I just annoy, irritate, agitate and humiliate you?

    p.s. Anyway – it’s time for Motlanthe to pack up his bags and head for obscurity (or Manley to be with our dearly departed JR) – he was humiliated at the ANC polls, hugely rejected, so he should just bugger off quietly and take with him those losers who are crying foul.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs? Dude? About that NEC-election?

    Anyone there you see as a ‘little inner voice’? ‘Conscience’ of the ANC?

    Time to migrate and be a token Indian for the Doghating Alliance, don’t you think?

    P.s. You misspelled ‘Butthead’!

  • Brett Nortje

    Anyway, I am captivated by your suggestion that our pigeon club should be bound by S33 and S19 of the BoR but the ANC not.

    Please expand?

  • Brett Nortje

    BTW, we’re getting to the meat of the Marikana CoI – like who gave the orders to shoot – and it is passing you girls by….

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years!
    December 21, 2012 at 9:41 am

    I also miss the old silly, bunny chow consuming you. You are starting to sound more and more like that pompous, irritating, DA-hugging prick AK.

    Lighten up a bit – it is not the end of the world. Yet.

  • Thomas

    Theres our justice system again: R110 000, that will make the police not to do it again.

    PE man gets damages from cops
    2012-12-21 10:24

    Port Elizabeth – The Eastern Cape High Court has ordered the minister of police to pay R110 000 in damages to a man for invasion of privacy and assault, according to a report on Friday.

    The judgment related to a case involving Thobela Julius Funde, who was assaulted by two police officers when his Kwadwesi home was raided five years ago, The Star reported.

    The officers claimed they went to Funde’s home at midnight to search for dagga after receiving a tip-off.

    During the raid, his wife and child were sent to another room in the house, and Funde was handcuffed and made to lie down on the floor.

    One of the officers produced a plastic glove and put it over Funde’s head, with the result that he could not breathe. He lost consciousness and the glove was taken off and he was revived with water.

    The process was repeated and continued for between 30 minutes to an hour.
    He was also pressed down, causing the handcuffs to hurt his wrists.

    He spent a long weekend in jail then opened an assault case.

    The court found Funde’s version more reliable and that the officers’ action was a serious invasion of privacy, and the assault severe.

    The judgment must be sent to the minister of police and to the police’s national commissioner.

    - SAPA

  • Olds

    Brett Nortje
    December 21, 2012 at 9:11 am

    Thanks, but not necessary. Sweet of you to ask. The cgis .gov website says that he is a closet worker (with an Emperial WHITE degree in Economy) and has tried to come out of the closet many, many times, with no success, which seem not to deter him from trying again and again, this time farm work, on his own affirmed farm, of course. I think he has not accepted the fact that you cannot take previous and present advantage away just by joining the cause of the previously and presently disadvantaged without also doing some physical labour.

    Tsk, shame.

  • Olds

    Thomas

    If you had also given us Mr Funde’s lawyer’s name it would have made reading the news again worthwhile.

    Anybody realise the irony in the statement “has ordered the minister of police to pay R110 000″? Last time I checked the minister of police got paid with tax payer’s money. Guess who’s footing the bill.

  • Brett Nortje

    TSK, Tsk, tsk, Olds!

    You see what you miss when I do not spoonfeed?

    “The bank statements reflect direct payments of about R600 000 to Godongwana, about R420 000 to his wife and nearly R1m to Patel.

    The payments to Enoch Godongwana were made from November 2007 to September 2008, to Thandiwe from June 2009 to April 2010, and to Patel from March 2009 to March 2011.

    Kawie both received and deposited money across the four years, mainly through three of his businesses. By the end he had benefited by R6.4m.

    The bulk of the money went to businesses owned by the Godongwanas and Patel.

    Pan African Benefit Services (PABS), involved in the retirement fund business, got more than R13.6m, moved in numerous transactions – often several times a month.

    The Godongwanas and Patel were directors or shareholders in PABS at various times; Patel from January 2007, when the plans to move the Sactwu money to Canyon Springs were hatched.”

  • Brett Nortje

    This elected NEC reads like a veritable Rogue’s Gallery.

    Top of the list Dr Sarafina Zuma, starring role in the NSA’s first governance scandal. No 45 is occupied by one of the stage props in the NSA’s first corruption/housing/Mpumalanga scandal, Mthembi-Mahanyele Sankie Dolly.

    Apart from Godongwana you will also find Mmemezi Humphrey, who left the scene of an accident in an official vehicle; Cele Bhekokwakhe Hamilton, aspiring propetier; Yengeni Tony Sithembiso convict and Mandela Nomzamo Winfred star of her very own episode of ‘Cops’ with the hawks investigating her possible role in the the disappearance of children.

    Not to mention the author of South Africa’s own Zimbabwe-style failed state, Ramatlhodi Ngoako Abel.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years!

    Brett Nortje
    December 21, 2012 at 10:09 am

    G,

    “Anyone there you see as a ‘little inner voice’? ‘Conscience’ of the ANC?”

    There are indeed those who would be regarded as the #ANCConscience, but alas they have to zip it about doing the right thing or else they would be sidelined faster than #Princess could say “Shut up!”.

    Anyway – I’m not sure that being voted onto the NEC alongside a bunch of thieves (er, former thieves) is a compliment!

  • Olds

    Brett Nortje
    December 21, 2012 at 13:16 pm

    No need for sordid details, like I said, a closet worker who cannot explain the amount of presents he gets (and why?). Must be as popular as our pressie amongst his friends, who are clearly not workers.

    Bottomline is lots of dead industries and slave wages in the remainder after his considerable efforts, poor man. I wonder if some of those transfers at origin had a currency symbol that looks like a stylised martini glass?

  • joeslis

    Maggs:

    “… being voted onto the NEC alongside a bunch of thieves (er, former thieves) is a compliment!”

    A compliment? Nah, it’s a prerequisite.

    BTW, do you think there’s a chance of Motlanthe and the other losers forming a breakaway party?

  • Olds

    Ah, I get it. Makes perfect sense. The NEC wiil entertain the electorate much like the British Royal family do the Brits and unlike the SABC, while the rest of the presidency will be able to carry on with business as usual, unhampered by nosey voters.

    How considerate of them and it is only fair since they took away Malema.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    joeslis
    December 21, 2012 at 15:37 pm

    Joeslis,

    “BTW, do you think there’s a chance of Motlanthe and the other losers forming a breakaway party?”

    It’s unlikely.

    Remember COPE turned out to be “Can’t COPE”. If these losers start a party they may try HOPE and after a year they’ll become No HOPE.

    Anyway – not many voters will be attracted to a party which is formed because it’s founding members are disgruntled with the outcome of the democratic process.

    There is still the space for a progressive political party to fill the space left by the ANC.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=348133&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “There is still the space for a progressive political party to fill the space left by the ANC.”

    Maggs is wrong. Only the ANC can represent the aspirations of all our people. President Zuma will approach special committees to study the problems of education and corruption. In similar circumstances, I would support Zuma again and again.

    Thanks.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 21, 2012 at 16:08 pm

    “There is still the space for a progressive political party to fill the space left by the ANC.”

    I don’t know maggs. What do you mean with “progressive” – is it like “litigation” i.e. if you don’t like something you get your big shot lawyers to sue the bastards as if you a USA spoiled brat?

  • Brett Nortje
  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 21, 2012 at 21:41 pm

    LOL.

    Jeepers Brett. I didn’t see that one coming.

    “Bheki Jacobs:

    6.1 My book Eye On The Diamonds published this year is dedicated to Bheki Jacobs (Hassan Solomon) who led a team of ANC whistleblowers. Jacobs and his team had been trained in the Soviet Union, and had seen what happened in Russia when communist “apparatchiks” became super-capitalists. They insisted that they had gone into exile to fight for the liberation of South Africa, and became whistleblowers after they realised that the struggle had been betrayed.

    6.2 Jacobs told me:

    the arms deal is just the tip of the iceberg that concerns oil deals, the taxi recapitalisation process, tollroads, drivers’ licences, Cell C, the Coega harbour development, diamond and drug smuggling, weapons trafficking and money laundering. The common denominator is kickbacks to the ANC in return for political protection.

    6.3 Jacobs died in September 2008 at the age of 46 of cancer in extremely suspicious circumstances. I respectfully request the Commission to recommend investigations whether the multiple cancers that killed Jacobs were deliberately induced and that his death, therefore, was murder.”

    How could the African National Criminals with their “Friends in the Mafia” ever become implicated in such criminal things? (Mbeki, Jacie Selebi, Interpol, Commissioner of Police)

  • Blue Ozone

    BTW – one of my comrades told me first hand how he was approached by Anglo-America (with offers) to abolish the Struggle. He also said it was almost common knowledge that the ANC received money from international crime bosses, including but not limited to the Mafia.

  • Blue Ozone

    Viva, African National Criminals, Viva !!

  • Brett Nortje

    Anyone else feel that now the ANC has given the Marikana CoI the finger so spectacularly it might as well be treated as “Not Taken Up’?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    December 21, 2012 at 19:51 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    “In similar circumstances, I would support Zuma again and again.”

    Let’s see how he handles the first few months of the “second phase of the first transition”.

    If by 2014, Zuma behaves more “presidentially” than he did in his first term, perhaps I would join you in supporting him again.

    Well maybe, unlike Juju, my “umbilical cord” is still attached to the ANC – so we wait …

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 22, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Hey maggs. What you say of that inconvenient Indian who just wouldn’t play ball?

    “At his Muslim funeral on Monday, veteran investigative journalist Martin Welz spoke of Jacobs as a man of rare integrity. That was true: for an intelligence operator—an “information peddler”—he had a remarkably constant code of honour.”

    “He and his colleagues in ANC intelligence, he said, had seen the disastrous consequences in Russia of the collapse of the Soviet Union, when communists suddenly became super-capitalists. Such a gangster society, Bheki said, was not why he had gone into exile to fight for liberation from apartheid. Something had to be done.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2008-09-16-master-of-information

  • Alibama

    Maggs Naidu says:-
    }There’s a fine line between (judicial) intervention and interference.

    }I think the line has been crossed in this judgement.

    }While Froneman may have been too harsh in contemplating the leave to appeal, he’s pretty much summed up what ought to
    have been the CC position.

    }Will the Chokers (aka the Proteas) players who are left out of the teams now be able to take this to the CC?

    }Will soccer fans now take outcomes of games, where the referee erred when awarding a penalty, to the CC?
    =====
    Well yes, as a lay-person: my first/simplistic idea is that law is about cops & robbers and not arbitrating games.
    But he law-principle apparently is to have dispute resolution mechanisms, to avoid the need for a Kebble-job.
    Besides, which Court did that ‘rugby case which is often cited’ escalate to?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Alibama
    December 23, 2012 at 8:17 am

    Hey Alibaba,

    “Besides, which Court did that ‘rugby case which is often cited’ escalate to?”

    That matter involved our national rugby, didn’t it?

    As much as there’s all kinds of skulduggery involved in the ANC “internal democracy” it ought to remain an internal matter.

    In the final analysis, all the court action achieved was to sully the image of the CC.

    In all likelyhood those in the PEC who were tossed out by the CC, will be elected at a properly convened provincial council.

    The ANC is pretty fucked up in all manner of ways – but it is not reason for courts to interfere.

    As Blue Boy says – if people don’t like the shit, they can leave the ANC and form their own satellite blog.

    This time I will not disagree with those who may say that this is a counter-revolutionary judgement. Maybe even a drunken judgement!

  • Brett Nortje

    Northern Province rummy club boot me out because I laugh too hard when the old people drop their cards or can’t read them.

    No disciplinary hearing. No notice. No invitation to hear my side of the story. No offer to refund my pre-paid membership dues.

    A mere ‘You’re not welcome here anymore’ before shutting door in my face.

    Maggs’ solution: Go start your own club.

    What did you wankers think was going to happen when the Bill of Rights was made to apply horizontally? It would be used as a sword not a shield against nasty mhlungus only? LOL!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    December 22, 2012 at 19:25 pm

    Hey Blue Boy,

    I met the oke some years ago – he didn’t sound anything like is being portrayed. It seemed to me at the time that he was the maker of conspiracy theories.

    Anyway – more important stuff. Please donate your teeth, dead or alive, to this important cause!

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/scitech/2012/12/22/potch-uranium-exposure-to-be-studied-through-teeth

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “unlike Juju, my “umbilical cord” is still attached to the ANC …”

    I remain attached umbilically, mentally, ideologically, spiritually, and fundamentally politically-unapologetically attached to ANC. As you, dearest Maggs, taught me several years back, ONLY the ANC can represent the aspirations of all our people.

    Thanks.

  • Olds

    It has become clear what I, and those who have died in the mines, striking and working, have suspected for a while: the law, including the Constitution, are mere agreements between resource owners to play nice (with each other) and not for the likes of us teagirls who can’t afford it (no resources).

    The chattering classes do not give a damn about the smellies having no justice never mind Christmas and as long as we obediently keep contributing our sweat to their comfort and wellbeing, they will continue to profess to care. Until we go on strike for fairer pay, when we become the enemy.

    Merry chrismas dear president, ministers and judges of the constitutional court, I hope you enjoy your feasts.

  • Olds

    http://m.iol.co.za/article/view/s/81/a/342212

    And christmas everyone else.

  • Alibama

    Re. trivial litigation: does Information Access Act work?
    Eventually I found time to read KrieglerJ’s pubic lecture, where he shows how we
    let systems degenerate because of work load. In some disciplines they successfully
    use the method of doing-small-but-complete tasks, and progressively increasing the
    task size. This avoids starting a task that’s too big and which is a total loss of
    invested resources when abandoned.
    Could this scheme work? I want to use PAIA. Am I right that this is INTENDED
    to be a low level resource-efficient method of legal protection – instead of doing
    a Kebble ?
    == I got a demand letter for a car accident addressed to a name very close to my
    rare name, at “Unit 1-4 Quinn Str” whereas I’m at “14 Quinn Str”.
    I’m interested if ID theft is involved. So I phoned the lawer’s clerk, and when
    told that vehicle records SHOWED that I was the owner, I emailed [I want a doco-trail]
    asking for the vehicle-record’s-proof copy. Now, a month later I’ve got a WITHOUT
    PREJUDUCE ‘kak en betaaal’. This letter lists the “OUR INSURED West Rand Plastics”,
    who I might decide to phone and query. But I want to USE this matter to test and
    learn PAIA, for bigger matters later.
    == My email will be proof that I gave the lawer a chance to back out of his ‘vat n kans’
    which may well be NOT his fault. And that I am calling on PAIA to protect my rights.
    == Sorry boys about your etoll. I jettisoned vehicle and fixed property ownership,
    years ago, in order to be able to make a quick exit when Zimbabawe arrives.

    =====WDYS ?
    PS. Haven’t the ‘discovery rules’ always sufficed?
    What about PAIA considered as an ‘abuse of legal procedure’?
    What about mag-rule: ‘summary judgment because the respondent’s request for full
    accounting, is merely an attempt to delay’, but then respondent using the rule to pay
    the claim into the Crt; would such, prove abuse of procedure by the applicant?
    Of course it PROVES it, but could these dumb SA law people understand?

  • Olds

    Alibama
    December 24, 2012 at 22:32 pm

    Hey Brain, your ego is showing. South Africa, like most of the rest of the world isn’t ruled by law but by greed and laziness and fear, which manifests itself as power struggles for market share. PAIA was just another sign of the govt wanting to join in the fun. “The bureaucracy expanding to feed the needs of the growing bureaucracy”. Just go down to your local traffic dept and sort out the vehicle ownership. The ” dumb SA law people” are either recovering from last night or preparing for tonight.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 23, 2012 at 9:53 am

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/scitech/2012/12/22/potch-uranium-exposure-to-be-studied-through-teeth

    Uranium exposure indeed! LOL.

    You won’t believe this dear maggs but nowadays whenever I get that loving feeling I find my saber glowing in the dark just like Mr. Luke Skywalker.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/LukeSkywalkerROTJV2Wallpaper.jpg

  • Brett Nortje

    White Vuyo’s political guru talks out his ass again:

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Veeartse-nie-deel-van-swart-manier-20121227

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett.

    How do you think it is possible that our local media somehow totally missed this story?

    “Afrikaner: Statement By Dr. Mulder About UNPO General Assembly

    The Unrepresented Nations and People Organization’s (UNPO) conference in Geneva, unanimously accepted a motion in which they expressed their concern about the discrimination in South Africa against minority groups. The motion was proposed and motivated by Dr. Pieter Mulder, FF Plus leader. The motion also recommended that a request is addressed to the Secretary General of the United Nations to send a fact finding mission to South Africa in order to find out first-hand about the circumstances such as amongst others farm murders in South Africa. Dr. Mulder was elected as member of the presidency (Executive Committee) of UNPO during the conference. The presidency consists of nine members. As president of UNPO, Mr. Ngawang Choepel of Tibet was elected. The new vice president is Mr. Mohamoud Daar from Somaliland (see here). In the UNPO motion, reference was made amongst others to affirmative action which is used to discriminate against white, brown and Indian people based on their race in the workplace, entrance requirements to university, awarding of tenders and discrimination even on the welfare terrain.”

    http://www.unpo.org/article/15225

  • Brett Nortje

    How much coverage have you seen in the media about the motion in the Dutch Parliament to condemn farm-murders in SA?

    (It failed, because people like Lucy Holborn and Maggs and Michael have gone to great lengths to convince opinion formers the murder of white South Africans is unexceptional, ‘ordinary’ crime…’mere’ homicide…)

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 27, 2012 at 14:10 pm

    “How much coverage have you seen in the media about the motion in the Dutch Parliament to condemn farm-murders in SA?”

    Nothing. Zero, but it isn’t your beloved British capitalists that not only owns the ANC, the UCT, the mines, the banks, the new arms deal commission and significant sections of the media?

  • Blue Ozone

    Hey Brett.

    What you say – Tony Blair, Thabo Mabeki, BAE, Barclays, Absa, Arms Deal, Lonmin, Marikana, Ramaphosa, Squashed Arms Deal submissions.

    You see any pattern emerging in there?

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-07-17-call-to-probe-barclays-links-to-arms-deal

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Ozone-Acolyte Guy

    With respect, Mr Zuma is right. Typically, liberal media overlooks the fact that many so-called dogs are instinctively RACIST. It is not coincidence that Tony “Fight Black” Leon was known in Parliament as the “yapping chiuwawa.”

    Thanks.

  • Dmwangi

    Zuma tells it like it is:

    ‘Johannesburg – It was a dog-eat-dog world on Twitter on Thursday as people argued over President Jacob Zuma’s comments that caring for a pet dog was part of “white” culture.

    While a flurry of users seemed indignant that Zuma didn’t name Jock of the Bushveld his favourite four-legged South African or ask Lassie to come home, many others agreed with the president’s sentiments.

    One user, YanelaJ, said Zuma’s comments were accurate: “How many blacks vs whites do u c walking/running dogs..don’t count domestic worker?”

    Young Communist League spokesperson Khaya Xaba tweeted that a “rich man’s dog gets more in the way of vaccination, medicine and medical care than do the workers upon whom the rich man’s wealth is built”.

    The Star reported on Thursday that Zuma, in a speech given at Impendle in KwaZulu-Natal, had said that spending money to buy a dog and taking it to the vet and for walks, belonged to “white” culture.

    Zwelinzima Vavi tweets

    He was also reported to have said that those who loved dogs more than people had “a lack of humanity”.

    The presidency later sent out a statement in which it explained that Zuma was only trying to “decolonise the African mind” with his statements.

    Presidential spokesperson Mac Maharaj said that Zuma wanted “to enable the previously oppressed African majority to appreciate and love who they are”.

    Meanwhile on Twitter, Cosatu general secretary Zwelinzima Vavi tweeted a picture of himself with his Boerboel “Superhero” and his Jack Russell “Maradona”.

    Some tweeters gently suggested that “Superhero” was a bit on the chubby side, but Vavi reassured his followers that he has managed to get the Boerboel’s weight down since the photograph was taken.

    Vavi also mentioned that he had given ANC secretary general Gwede Mantashe a puppy years ago. “He keeps dogs too,” tweeted Vavi.

    Nevertheless, Vavi said that he was not offended by Zuma’s comments. “As an animal lover & proudly black I don’t feel insulted by that comment – I do have compassion for humans too!!” However, internationally renowned author Zakes Mda refuted the essentialism behind Zuma’s statement.

    Culture

    “There are many ways of being African. Of being black even. Those who love animals are not less African than those who don’t.”

    Journalist Reuben Goldberg suggested that South Africans buy Zuma a dog “and name it #Nkandla”.

    Even “Bazil the Bulldog” gave his opinion into the matter, tweeting: “Zuma needs a history check, as the Africanis breed of dogs have been the companions of Southern Africa’s San Bushmen since 800 AD…”

    Ayanda Mlotshwa questioned Zuma’s linking of race and dog ownership, stating: “I’m black & I love my dog. He’s part of my family. We’ve always had dogs in my family. Can’t imagine life without them.”

    A number of people also tweeted an old photograph of former president Nelson Mandela beaming alongside a jubilant canine companion.

    The Christian Democratic party sent out a statement in which they said it appeared from his remarks that Zuma’s second term would be “even more sectarian and divisive” than his first.

    “This playing up of one culture against another, describing them, not as different, but rather that one has superior moral values to the other, is totally unacceptable and counterproductive,” said party leader Theunis Botha.’

  • Olds

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    December 27, 2012 at 23:44 pm

    Dogs are pack animals and take their cue from the alpha dog. Outside of nature they normally accept their “owner” as alpha.

    I wonder if Zuma does not like keeping dogs because they would reveal his feelings about races other than Zulu or because they would not accept him as alpha?

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    December 28, 2012 at 6:32 am

    I never thought that I would ever agree with Theuns Botha about anything but:
    “This playing up of one culture against another, describing them, not as different, but rather that one has superior moral values to the other, is totally unacceptable and counterproductive”

    Exactly. And he is not even being original in his approach. There is historical precident of another likable, charismatic leader getting an entire downtrodden nation to see anyone unlike them as the enemy and eventually to try and exterminate this “enemy” or at least turn a blind eye if they did not have the stomach for torture or killing.

    His approach to knowledge is fresh though, instead of burning books he is simply withholding the supply or complicit in dumbing down the content.

    Maths Lite indeed.

  • Gwebecimele

    Whoever thought that we will be defining an important concept such as African using new found habits such as weaves, dog grooming etc??

    Are we that casual about this topic?

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    December 27, 2012 at 23:44 pm

    It reinforces my point how little difference there is between the ANC and the Doghating Alliance. How much doesn’t Zuma have in common with Jean-pierre – who is trying to set up a dog registration/confiscation/no compensation scheme in CT and has just blustered dog owners away from its res publicae…..

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    December 27, 2012 at 14:23 pm

    We’ve seen a couple of decades of capitalist cons that not even your Baader-Meinhof gang could have envisaged, even a couple of wars. Seems to me ‘globalisation’ is the biggest scam, but in this country we’ve had huge steals as well like the ‘demutualisation’ of retirement funds and in-house medical aids.

    If you’re going to run a scam with any kind of scope the most important thing to ensure seems to me would be to legitimise the money once you have it, particularly if your going to transfer it around the world.

    SO, first thing you have to put in place is your bank.

    Why is Merkel always in Greece trying to lend them more money to meet their repayments rather than cutting them off?

  • Brett Nortje

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2012/dec/11/hsbc-money-laundering-fine

    HSBC fine: what does it take for a bank to get prosecuted?
    The money-laundering fine represents four weeks’ earnings – and
    the idea of a bank being ‘too big to prosecute’ is alarming

    Is HSBC’s $1.9bn (£1.2bn) fine enormous or a drop in the ocean?
    Well, it’s a record for the offence of money laundering and
    breaking sanctions, which could be said to underline the gravity
    of the bank’s actions.

    On the other hand, the sum represents about four weeks’ earnings
    given the bank’s pre-tax profits of $21.9bn last year.

    The financial pain is easily bearable. Indeed, the steady upward
    progress of HSBC’s share price since the scandal exploded in July
    was unaffected on Tuesday morning.

    Shareholders like the idea the affair is settled and they trust
    that chief executive Stuart Gulliver’s new-broom regime won’t
    fall foul of the US department of justice’s new independent
    monitor, who will assess how the bank implements its pledges to
    do better.

    Gulliver even has a glowing testimonial to wave as HSBC starts
    its probation period. “Management had made significant strides in
    improving ‘tone from the top’ and ensuring a culture of
    compliance permeates the institution,” said the DoJ.

    But HSBC investors may also like something else. The New York
    Times reports that some DoJ officials wanted to bring criminal
    charges against the bank but eventually decided not to for fear
    such a move would put the future of one of the world’s largest
    banks at risk and thus threaten global financial stability.

    We don’t know the weight of that tale and maybe the fear of
    financial chaos was exaggerated. But the idea that a bank could
    be “too big to prosecute” is alarming. It sends a message that,
    whatever the scale of wrong-doing, the world’s biggest banks can
    never lose their licence to operate overnight.

    Instead, a hefty fine can always make the problem go away.

    Is that really a sensible message for regulators to send? Is
    their hand really so weak? On this occasion, HSBC’s words of
    contrition and promises to behave properly sound sincere. But
    will that always be the case for all big banks everywhere and
    forever?

    The DoJ should clear up this sub-plot speedily. If money
    laundering on the scale admitted by HSBC doesn’t provoke a
    prosecution, what would?

  • Olds

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 7:47 am

    Uhh “Doghating” and here I thought those new laws were being put in place to protect dogs from their owners and the public in general from dogowners with no sense of society? But I suppose dogs should have as much right to live a deceased, feral, unguided life in the name of “freedom” as does streetkids.

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 7:55 am

    But then – why are you just like the media and your little friend PdV so quiet about obvious glaring conflicts of interest, like the lovely Ngcuka couple or the Trevor and Maria Manuels of the world?

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    December 28, 2012 at 6:32 am

    “There are many ways of being African. Of being black even. Those who love animals are not less African than those who don’t.”

    Dmwangi. Do you agree that there are many modes of existence that qualifies one for being African/Afrikaner and that we are not all necessarily racial stereotypes that just walked out of a Southpark cartoon to be authentic.

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/9/1270807126267/Resistance-Afrikaner-Weer-001.jpg

  • Blue Ozone
  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    December 28, 2012 at 8:34 am

    That, regrettably, is something people like myself and Pierrot can do little about.

    It comes from having a triple-digit IQ, and some of the unpleasant side-effects are that you can see nuances and analyse counter-factuals and have a good sense of knowing when you might be about to throw the baby out with the bath-water…

  • Brett Nortje

    Olds says:
    December 28, 2012 at 8:19 am

    If they’re deceased they’re likely no longer feral or unguided.

  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    December 28, 2012 at 8:34 am

    Here’s the wonderful thing about f-r-e-e-d-o-m:

    I’m a libertarian so I view with distaste for instance Big Brother stepping in to hammer bread bakers who one day say to each other ‘Hey, lets all charge R10 for a loaf of bread! Where they gonna go?’

    What prevents you from setting up a blog where you tell the world what they’re up to, or giggel about Trevor being involved in the Arms Deal and Maria being CEO of ABSA and regaling everyone who will listen with quips like ‘Toevallig, ne?’ and posting every one of Terry Crawford Brown’s exploits?

    Even if Anton says your blog is ‘cringeworthy’?

    Seems to me most people have faith in f-r-e-e-d-o-m until the first outcome they don’t like.

  • Olds

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Just over an hour to spot the mistake. Impressive for a trip digit IQ. Diseased not deceased, of course changes everything, quite right (bantu education) showing again.

  • Olds

    Blue Ozone
    December 28, 2012 at 8:54 am

    Are those the same evil WHITES who supported “the struggle” to get better weapons and training so as also to have the asbility to kill lots of opponents when the odds are against numbers?

  • Olds

    So,it looks like democracy and the rest of the tribes in South Africa are just going to have to wait until this sore point of rivers of blood is sorted out between the Afrikaners and the Zulus. Oh well, back to tea, gold digging and tendering while we wait.

    If the Ruskies have zoomed in on that it must still be important to those involved.

  • Blue Ozone

    Olds
    December 28, 2012 at 9:58 am

    “Are those the same evil WHITES who supported “the struggle” ”

    Yep. Very same racist WHITES who supported the ANC amongst many other colonial liberations movements in that “Cold War” that our contemporary white liberals insist simply never happened. They even supported that racist Communist poison dwarf that nowadays pretend to be the leader of the SACP.

    This never ending struggle against WHITE (hmmm…monopoly capital) as Comrade Cyril Ramaphose invests in a R18 million buffalo bull called Senatla and then as BBEEE director of Lonmin PLC proceed to get elected deputy president of the ANC.

    Who says Africans don’t love animals?

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Just to let you know there are indeed satellite blogs that attempted to point this out but just as with the Afrikaner genocide nobody seems to give a fuck, besides for Mr. Terry Crawford Brown that is.

    http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/politics/neocolonialism-is-alive-and-well/

  • Olds

    Blue Ozone
    December 28, 2012 at 10:38 am

    So, the Cold WHITE War, which seemingly has now become an everything or anyone goes BRIC war?

    Perhaps this is al we need for struggle stress

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_12_25/How-relocating-to-Russia-can-heal-one-s-fears-and-neuroses/

    Thanks for the link, it is a very entertaining source of eh news.

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 9:31 am

    “That, regrettably, is something people like myself and Pierrot can do little about.”

    Oh now, but can’t you recall now your l3-digited IQ brother’s passionate defence of Mr. Julius Malema’s hate speech – in the name of “equality”, human rights, nonracialism, etc.

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/malema-judgment-a-re-think-on-hate-speech-needed/

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    I know neither of what you mean by ‘modes of existence’ nor the cartoon of which you speak. However, it is obvious that cultural ‘facts’ are rigorously correlated with race, apart from whether there are racial ‘essences’ in any metaphysical sense.

    @Olds:

    Your hysteria aside (December 28, 2012 at 6:59 am) I do find it problematic when cultures (viz. white culture) place more value on trees and dogs than human beings, as evidenced by the tremendous amount of time, money, care and concern devoted to pets and fern relative to domestics, street kids, jobless youth, the poor, etc.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    December 28, 2012 at 16:19 pm

    “I know neither of what you mean by ‘modes of existence’”

    I was in fact referring to Jacob Zuma the proud Zulu patriarch. Versus Jacob Zuma the statesman and ANC leader. Or Jacob Zuma the English speaking business man. Or Jacob Zuma the pet lover. Or Ozoneblue the human rights activist. Or Ozoneblue the racist WHITE Afrikaner who is just so fokken gatvol of all the hypocritical BULLSHIT and irrespective of very contentious problem of whether a real Zulu can be a pet lover too wants his kids to have a future and his people to have their independent state.

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    December 28, 2012 at 16:19 pm

    Hysteria? (Grins smugly) It is a sexually typecast fact that a woman pointing out an inconvenient truth will invariably be accused of hysteria.

    Here is another: should I see the importance placed on cattle, and especially in exchange for a female human in similar light? At least the ferns and dogs are exchanged for money. A domestic is an employee and should expect no more nor less treatment than, say, the miners at Marikana or the farmworkerks that were called “things” by a non-white person. The quality of environment we live in is important to our wellbeing as is evident when looking at the difference in. Health states between city and farm dwellers and shack and suburb dwellers. No species is more important than another that is just silly, ask any rural person who do not get their food from a shop. If a dog is a trusted companion supplying extra safety from the danger of fellow humans would it make sense to skimp on its upkeep to give to those who do not add anything but danger to my environment?

    Not hysteria, just logic. Indoor plants play a valuable role in quality of air and aesthetics. Logical, no?

  • Dmwangi

    @Olds:

    At the risk of exacerbating gender stereotypes, you are being utterly illogical.

    ‘No species is more important than another that is just silly, ask any rural person who do not get their food from a shop.’

    This is of course precisely the irrationality I referred to. The human species is more ‘important’ than all others because it is the only one that assigns *value* and *importance* to things.

    Food, animals, the environment are only valuable in so far as they promote human flourishing and well-being. Hence, they are of instrumental value. If no humans were around, there would be no ‘subjects’ to assign values to such ‘objects.’

    Your example of the rural person is apposite. The rural person *values* animals and the land precisely because they are conducive to their flourishing. The land and animals make no such judgement vis-a-vis other objects. Ergo, the human species supersedes other animal and plant species and those who deny this fact repudiate their own humanity.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Indoor plants play a valuable role in quality of air and aesthetics’

    Who appreciates this air quality and aesthetic beauty? Human beings. All of your examples show that such things are valuable only because of their relation to Homo sapiens. That you don’t see this is stunning!

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    Those are ‘modes’ of perception, not ‘modes’ of *being.*

    Unless you want to argue that being and perception are the same things, I don’t think your argument can be sustained.

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    December 28, 2012 at 17:50 pm

    So we are because we say so? That is somewhat circular don’t you think.
    Whilst a lion might not use the concepts “value” and importance I see prides station themselves fairly close to where the buck are.

    That said, any race contain aberants guilty of excess. How many orphanages could one build with the money spent on the bull mentioned earlier or the money squandered on senseless egocentrics by the like s of Paris Hilton? Or the excesses at Nkandla which was paid for by me and other tax-paying voters.

    I do not believe in charity in the form of goods. It simply breeds a sense of entitlement and does not help the recipient.

  • Olds

    Further Dwmangi – you would refute the (human) work done in scientific fields like ecology where the interconnectedness of all species is a well documented fact and also that removing one seemingly unimportant (to you) part could make the whole system crash, human component included. And systems will crash whether you obstinately believe you are more important than the fern that cleanes my air from your noxious German vehicle exhaust fumes or not. I notice you only pick fault with certain points I made. Do I take it you agree with rest?

  • Dmwangi

    @Olds:

    Sweetie, your gibberish would be amusing did you not actually believe it.

    We are because it is in our *nature.* Humans cannot help but assign value and meanings to things. Language is a primary example. Lions, ferns and dogs may react to non-cognitive motivations but that does not mean they have the capacity for agency, subjectivity, rational reflection, self-awareness, etc.

    The scientific work of ecology is entirely irrelevant to such philosophical questions. So while I can accept that small environmental changes have adverse concatenating effects, I am only worried about them to the degree they influence human flourishing. E.g. Killing amoebas doesn’t bother me– unless doing so harms human beings.

    On your asinine account, since all ‘species are equal,’ we can justify sacrificing one child if doing so will save two pigs. Or sacrifice the whole human species if doing so prevents the destruction of all other plant and animal species. To your view I say: you go first and lead by example.

  • Olds

    No need to become hysterical Dwmangi. Name-calling is a sign of over-emotionality and leads to such excessive words as “sacrifice” and assertions such that ecology has no bearing on philosophy. I see children sacrificed to the street and gangwarfare almost every day and these parents profess human value, like you, they simply lack the will to live it and wants to be fed by others who do. We are only just beginning to understand the other species and it would be pure hubris to assume we understand enough to vouch for their level of cognition or even with absolute certainty the means they use to display this. You talk about human nature yet claim the rest of nature is somehow divorced from us and at our exclusive disposal to use as we see fit.

    Dolphins don’t eat humans or need us for their wellbeing and yet they would save us from sharks. The last documented case not so long ago in Cape Town.

    But we will get nowhere since you seem to use faith where I prefer fact.

  • Dmwangi

    @olds:

    We get nowhere because you — I’m beginning to believe rightly– assert that your level if cognition is equivalent to fauna.

    The amount of CO2 put into the atmosphere as a result of your water and food consumption, bodily waste and Internet usage invariably harms thousands of microbial species. Will you cease your existence in the name of saving these ‘species?’

  • Olds

    I don’ t ‘assert’ things Dwmangi, I draw conclusions and test hypothesese based on observatiion of facts.

    As to your question? No I happen to be one of those silly humans who continuously strife for a lighter footprint and better ways to live in harmony with my environment. For instance, the alternative to all this killing of children and mortification suicide you propose would of course be to not have kids you can’t raise and are simply going to dispose of on the street. Logical, no?

  • Olds

    I don’ t ‘assert’ things Dwmangi, I draw conclusions and test hypothesese based on observatiion of facts.

    As to your question? No I happen to be one of those silly humans who continuously strive for a lighter footprint and better ways to live in harmony with my environment. For instance, the alternative to all this killing of children and mortification suicide you propose would of course be to not have kids you can’t raise and are simply going to dispose of on the street. Logical, no?

  • Olds

    Sorry about the duplicate, my 10g internet device malfunctioned. That said ‘ you are right and this conversation is no longer productive and thus do not warrant the milliviolts used by same. Bye

  • Dmwangi

    @Olds:

    I bore of your lunacy so this will be my last riposte.

    Not to quibble but conclusions and ‘observations of facts’ are assertions.

    Street kids probably have a far lighter ‘footprint’ than wealthier children with the means to consume more. Shouldn’t they be the object of your irrational opprobrium?

    And, if ‘all species are equal,’ and one species (humans) destroys other species at a greater rate than all others, ceteris paribus, it follows that all species qua species would be better off if humans didn’t exist. Logical, no?

    I don’t expect you to understand modus ponens but at least present an argument if you expect us to contravene our most basic moral intuitions (e.g. That two street kids are inherently more valuable than three, four, five thousand plants, dolphins, pigs, etc.)

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    December 28, 2012 at 16:19 pm

    Why should I place more ‘value’ on a street kid than my dog (which I bought and paid for and feed every day)?

    You’re kidding, right?

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 21:30 pm

    “Why should I place more ‘value’ on a street kid than my dog (which I bought and paid for and feed every day)?”

    I assume you are kidding boet. Otherwise I hope your fake Christianity would not be easily assimilated in a future Afrikaner Volkstaat.

    Since when does God equate humans to dogs?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    December 28, 2012 at 21:52 pm

    Hayibo Ozone Boy,

    “Since when does God equate humans to dogs?”

    Try again – there’s no such thing as god!

  • Brett Nortje

    Kak, OBS!

    Mwangi is busy with a variation of the White-Man’s-Burden opening.

    Why should a street urchin have a stronger claim on my money than my dog?

    He’s talking bullshit again, like our esteemed First Citizen.

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 22:24 pm

    ‘Why should a street urchin have a stronger claim on my money than my dog?”

    Because your “street urchin” is a human being before God ?

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 28, 2012 at 22:14 pm

    Well – perhaps you believe the world would be a better place without God, a place where dogs, chimpanzees and humans are all but proteins, molecules and atoms.

    but unfortunately I don’t roll that way.

  • Brett Nortje

    Bulllllshiiiiit!

    Of course, it is nice when Christians do charity. Voluntarily. Like I voluntarily assumed the burden of the dog when I bought it and in turn expect it to give its life if need be if someone tries to take my bakkie at a robot.

    But what we’re talking about here is a claim for paternal support in the form of maintenance. From people who feel they’re owed maintenance. And you’re obliged to pay it because you’re white, not because you fucked their mamas and there is the small matter of a paternity test.

    Can you try to approach this logically?

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 22:43 pm

    “Of course, it is nice when Christians do charity.”

    I’m sorry to say Brett. But those “street urchins” that you believe are less worthy than your dogs are not only HUMAN BEINGS but may also be Christians themselves.

  • Brett Nortje

    You’re like the silly wankers who just returned Zuma to the driving seat of the ANC only to have him embarrass the country again the first time he opened his mouth after to show the world how unsuitable he is and how inept they are.

    Deliberately evading the issue. Because it is so embarrassing.

    It has nothing to do with street kids’ innate humanity but everything to do with a you-owe-me claim for maintenance.

    Obviously, YOUR president is feeling his oats now that he is secure for the next couple of years and decided payback is in order for all the slights he has felt the last couple years. In his own inimitable way.

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 23:16 pm

    Ja? And your fascist unChristians “morals” are a fucking embarrassment, not only to [rich] White people in general but to Afrikaners in particular.

  • Brett Nortje

    You’re wasting my time. And No Doubt is on MTV.

    Does it strike you as slightly incongruous that the same silly cunts who are arguing zero-sum-total economics wrt this issue – that every cent I spend on my dogs is a cent ‘out of the mouths of street children’ have defended in every phrasable way the R230m Zuma wasted at Nkandla?

    Fugggoofff! LOL!

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 28, 2012 at 23:40 pm

    I believe you are deliberately confabulating on micro-level ANC/entitlement politics and macro-level issues of moral philosophy. You are deliberately distorting both the context and content of what cde Zuma had to say.

    Why?

  • Brett Nortje

    And Gwen Stefani still has such a delectable belly-button…

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    I think you’re the one who’s jesting.

    So if the street child were a slave you had bought and fed, then he’d have ‘value’? Seems you’ve conflated what Jon Finnis calls ‘primary goods,’ which are impersonal, with something approximating desire or sentiment, which are particularistic. So I may *believe* my Scotch has value because I bought it and it makes me feel good, provides utility, etc. but that simply means it has instrumental value *for my purposes.* It is no argument for its intrinsic goodness (or even its inherent instrumental value).

    Suppose your sentiment about your own children changes in the future and you no longer *perceive* any value in them. Does this mean the ontological status of their value has changed? Hardly. Value does not inhere in any particular person’s belief or perception. It inheres in nature and it is part of our nature to ascertain values, meanings in ways that are not true of dogs and other animals.

    Furthermore, I fail to see how race is relevant. Obligations to street children are equally applicable to white and black street kids. There is no white man’s burden nonsense. Blacks are obliged to help indigent whites as much as vice versa.

    In sum, if ‘goods’ or ‘values’ are simply functions of opinion, desire, or sentiment, then there is no reason African mobs should not shoot boer farmers if they *believe* it will suit *their purposes.* They may *value* the soil more than white farmers and *believe* their obligations are to it and not to white humans. Deny human value, and our correlative duty to uphold it (by for example, allocating necessities to poor, disabled, etc. persons), and you have no principled basis upon to say such an act is unjust. In which case, you should stop whining about the alleged white genocide as your utterances reflect mere sentiment, opinion, preference and have no obliging force.

    Your view ends in nihilism. Quite a popular view among whites these days.

  • Brett Nortje

    Straw man! Straw man!

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett

    Scream dismissives all you want but that is not an argument.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    December 29, 2012 at 0:07 am

    Hey DM,

    “I think you’re the one who’s jesting.”

    True – he’s quite the jester, that Brett.

    You make some pretty compelling arguments re street children/UBUNTU.

    But UBUNTU as practiced (or there are claims that it is practiced) is rather confusing.

    It seems to me that there are more UBUNTU practicing people than there are street kids.

    What am I missing?

    p.s. BTW which would you rate more important – a cattle-tunnel and a tuck-shop or some (many perhaps) UBUNTU-deficient vagrants.

    I think the tunnels, tuck shop, helipad are higher needs, cos as always FUCK THE POOR! – nevertheless let’s hear what you think.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    December 28, 2012 at 23:48 pm

    Hey God believing guy,

    “You are deliberately distorting both the context and content of what cde Zuma had to say.”

    Zuma was very clear on what he had to say – the confusion comes from Mac Maharaj “decolonising the mind” etc which Zuma did not say.

    What Zuma said is this :

    - if you look after your dog or
    - if you straighten your hair or
    - if you use lotion (note that it’s ok to use baby oil)
    then you’re a COCONUT or a WHITE person.

    Zuma also said :

    - girls must have children to give them experience to becoming women
    - women must cook and clean
    - the purpose of women is to have children and get married

    He added in for good measure :
    - Black people who read and question are #CleverBlacks
    - “I know what I am doing”
    - “I have to look up the meaning of ‘crook’ in a dictionary”
    - “I don’t know how much it is costing to build me the underground bunker (but if Juju can have one, so can I)”

    And most importantly he said :

    “As a young man, if a gay man came between me and MY goat, I would have knocked him down”.

    I hope you understand now.

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    December 29, 2012 at 0:47 am

    I’m pleased Zuma decided to let off steam because it reinforces what several of us have remarked on before. That being that a lot of you patriarchs who pick up the gauntlet for ‘Black Culture’ are making up the basic tenets as you go.

    I can’t see why anyone would want hair extensions. Life would probably be easier for a lot of kids if they could accept the way the Lord made them. 9 out of 10 kids look wierd anyway. They think they’re expressing their individuality. Kids being stupid. But where’s the harm?

    Zuma might want to explore his distaste in dogs with the possibility that he associates ‘dogs’ with ‘police’. I’ve always seen black people with dogs. Moandela with a Ridgeback? Vavi with a boerbull (eeeoww!) and a Jack Russell probably only he could span? What’s strange about that?
    I remember well the two Dobermanns a black guy a couple of classes ahead of me was training when I took my second Dobermann Rajah (born 1986) to school. The finest example of a black dog-lover is the kid who got beat to death by brutes twice his size for mouthing off to them after they caught him poaching and shot his dogs in front of him. Noordelikes Rugby Club ring a bell?

    The simple fact here is that Zuma has reinforced his unfitness very publicly a mere week after a massive vote of confidence in the face of better men.

    Suck it up, ANusClowns!

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    December 29, 2012 at 8:00 am

    Well I tend to agree that Africans should be encouraged to “decolonise the mind”. I would also want to include racist WHITES and INDIANS in that process. People like you know who, who thinks it is sweet to post on South African forums in Dutch or Latin, or people who keeps on moaning and bitching about how primitive and unconstitutional Africans and their traditional ways are. That is where I so agree with Dmwangi.

  • Maggs Naidu

    So Ozone Boy,

    You’re saying that Zuma alone managed to decolonise his mind.

    Now he is passing on his unique knowedge to the less fortunate #UncleverBlacks.

    And that I guess is UBUNTU!

  • Gwebecimele

    The Prez is right you cant value a buffalo more than a mine worker

  • Gwebecimele

    It is that time of the year that 98% of elite matriculants celebrate a well deserved milestone in their lives and the less than 2% know exactly where they went wrong.
    Congratulations class of 2012!!!!!

    Needless to say that majority of poor black matriculants will come out of the so called christmas to face the reality of our SA life. Based on stats figures this is the point where their future is decided. Many amongst us are responsible for the future of thes
    e kids but we sleep well at night.

    UZUBENATHI

  • joeslis

    Dmwangi
    December 28, 2012 at 20:O6 PM

    You pose here as an African, but you sound like a pompous old white fart. My guess is, you ARE a pompous old white fart.

    Do you honestly believe that Africans will attach “inherently” more value to a couple of street urchins than, say, a herd of prime Nguni cattle?

  • Dmwangi

    @Joeslis:

    So based on the way I “sound,” by which, you must mean the verbiage I use and the way I articulate myself, you conclude that I am not African?

    It is always interesting how small minds reflexively resort to typecasting to order and make sense of phenomena that fails to match their preconceived mental schemas. Open your mind, son. Being African is an immutable part of my identity but it does not dictate how I “sound.”

    To answer your question; Yes, it is a basic precept of African culture that human beings are of a higher dignity than animals, irrespective of whether all African persons, in all places, at all times, have lived up to this ideal.

    The fact that you must resort to depersonalising adjectives (urchins) to describe these children (human beings) is quite reminiscent of the types of slurs (e.g. “Cockroaches,” “Vermin”, etc.) used to rationalise human rights abuses throughout history. It’s psychologically hard for you to justify treating people inhumanely without first stripping ‘the other’ of his human-ness. Notwithstanding your youthful callousness, those street ‘urchins’ are worthy of just as much care and concern as me, you or even those so ignorant and morally crass as to question their humanity.

  • Brett Nortje

    “depersonalising adjectives”? Surely you jest.

    Are street children the world over not colloquially know as ‘street urchins’?

    No-one is contesting the humanity of street children – that is your David Copperfield scale misdirection.

    What I’m contesting is the ‘street urchins’ claim to dive into my pocket (or should I say what is left in my pocket after I merrily paid up to 5 times my usual water bill for two years like a model citizen while those useless incompetent ANC-deployed cunts in the City of Johannesburg have been stuffing around instead of getting to grips with my complaint…. )

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    December 29, 2012 at 20:35 pm

    Hey DM,

    Since ’tis the season of goodwill, I’ll be kind and help you out a bit since you’re a bit thick.

    What Joeslis means is that you sound like a silly fart.

    Of course Joeslis is wrong about you sounding that way.

    You are a silly fart.

    Your previous celebration of our African Father, Idi AMin Dada, and his violent and vicious brutalisation and murder, also makes you a pretentious fart – pretending that to you UBUNTU has relevance.

    Since you’re among friends, very caring ones at that, stop pretending.

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    Good. I’m glad we agree on the basic humanity of children irrespective of socio-economic circumstance.

    ‘What I’m contesting is the ‘street urchins’ claim to dive into my pocket….’

    This is where I get lost. Nowhere did I imply a right to theft. Nor did I even suggest the more humble claim that the government should use its coercive powers to tax and re-distribute essential goods to these children (though I believe they should).

    If you read my posts, you’ll see that I was merely making a cultural critique. I find it morally problematic that ppl would rather voluntarily devote their time, energy, empathy, care, concern and, yes, resources to dogs than to their fellow citizens, (especially the smallest ones) most of whom are in the circumstances they are through no fault of their own.

    Owning a pet is basically consumption. The pet provides the owner utility through conditioned-companionship. This is fundamentally different from the mutuality that exists between human beings who have their own goals, plans, wills, etc. Cultivating this type of relationship with a street child would be much more like service, or ‘investment’ — to maintain the market idiom. Most ppl prefer consumption even if it violates higher ordinal values.

    So while it might be prudent public-policy to have a surtax levied on luxury goods (e.g. medical care for dogs) in order to allocate more of society’s resources to basic human goods (e.g. medical care for humans), my larger concern is with the cultural implications of egotism so unfettered it says: “I’m going to get myself a dog or pet so I can have a companion without the difficulties/duties that come with having actual human relationships.” Particularly as you walk by human beings who are clearly in need of care, concern, fellowship, etc. It is the isolated individualism that rejects basic obligations to others–thereby dismissing their value– in favour of one’s own desires that I am criticising. The uncharitable dog-owner wants a friend but without the correlative duties of friendship.

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    Some of the young white women I know even think of their dogs as children. And while I’m sure they get some enjoyment out of them, and find they’re easier to care for, I think it’s quite an impoverished substitute.

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    December 29, 2012 at 22:34 pm

    Do you find it morally problematic that ppl would rather spend hundreds of thousands on Land Rovers rather than drive Nissan 1400s which would leave them with a great deal of disposable cash saved on financing petrol (diesel) insurance etc to be donated to the poor?

  • Dmwangi

    I’m saying a certain contingent is so spiritually empty that it seeks out artificial companionship and pet-affection rather than finding community in fellowship and service to others.

    To the extent that materialism is problematic it usually doesn’t manifest itself in this way and is something more amenable to public-policy solutions (e.g. luxury surtax). For example, I don’t empathise with my Scotch or BMWs or seek companionate-like interactions with them. Very few ppl would substitute them for human relationships, but the extent to which they do, I agree it is morally problematic for someone to say, “I’m going to have one fewer child and just get a 3-series instead.”

    Mostly my Scotch is something that facilitates human comraderie. But I also recognise that it is, at some level, a shallow form of it and therefore, given that the first problem of economics is dividing finite resources amongst infinite desires, I think it makes sense to tax that consumption to the degree appropriate to its intrinsic goodness relative to its portion of the economy. I think it would be terrible to live in a society that devoted more of its resources to Scotch consumption than education or infrastructure or caring for the poor, etc. just because that’s what consumer choice/behaviour dictated.

    So we must look at both sides: the way the consumer is allocating society’s resources based on his appetitive preferences (your Rover example) –something which can be attenuated or counteracted by policy– and the personality/character-shaping influences consumption patters have on individuals and how they can change people’s perceptions of value, the importance of social capital, relationships, etc.– something which tends to arise culturally and thus the state has much less influence over.

  • Gwebecimele

    Who gets better treatment between dogs and the 34 000 who competed for the 90 traffic cop vacancies, six died in the process? Who advised the police management to use a culture that test unfit obese sometimes sickly people using foreign standards. Traffic cops spent most of their working life under a tree, what level of fitness is required for that?

    Condolences to the families

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 29, 2012 at 23:53 pm

    “Do you find it morally problematic that ppl would rather spend hundreds of thousands on Land Rovers rather than drive Nissan 1400s which would leave them with a great deal of disposable cash saved on financing petrol (diesel) insurance etc to be donated to the poor?”

    In country where 80% claims to be Christian/Muslim and with so much poverty around absolutely. I’m sure any secular socialist would agree as well.

  • Blue Ozone

    Gwebecimele
    December 30, 2012 at 9:31 am

    It is the fittest survive gwebs, ask Mags he is the head hunco of the blogs New Atheist crowd.

  • Blue Ozone

    But please bear in mind, don’t matter which culture you are from there is no cure for incompetence and plain old fucking stupidity. Perhaps the ZKN cops have appointed a new AA physical training coach?

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    December 30, 2012 at 0:37 am

    Has your Scotch ever prevented a hijacking like my late friend Candy Collin Aegida (Slovenije’s one-and-only net gain to South Africa export) did for me?

    “I’m saying a certain contingent is so spiritually empty that it seeks out artificial companionship and pet-affection”

    and

    “I don’t empathise with my Scotch or BMWs or seek companionate-like interactions with them”

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett/Dmwangi.

    Comments please.

    Proudly ‘boer’ – A lifestyle in tatters

    “Miggels, popularly known as “Ouma Toerie”, says she was born and bred in Onverwacht, and misses the days when they used to share everything with their white Afrikaner neighbours.

    “We lived peacefully together and shared everything, from culture to religion.

    “We introduced them to pap and morogo and they showed us how to bake koeksisters, soetkoek and pannekoek, and how to cook bobotie,” she says, quickly blocking her salivating mouth, in the process nearly bumping her dentures off her gums.

    “Most of us lost our teeth due to too much sugar in the koeksisters, canned fruit, home-made jam and other Afrikaner goodies,” she jokes.”

    http://www.sundayworld.co.za/Feeds/SundayWorld/2012/12/10/proudly-boer—a-lifestyle-in-tatters

  • Brett Nortje

    I would prefer to quote our beloved Maggs at you:

    “7 More years of this stupidity – YIKES!”

    Say, what do you think of the distance Mwangi has surreptitiously moved from his original ‘cultural’ take on the Zumababble?

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 30, 2012 at 11:41 am

    “This stupidity” will remain until we all understand our history instead of trying so so very hard to forget or to “rewrite” it.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SA-history-needs-rewrite-says-Nzimande-20121030

    I’m watching the syllabus that my nine year old is exposed to. They don’t even have to learn any indigenous African languages, I know more Northern Sotho that surprisingly we all had to learn under Apartheid.

    And any mention of the Cold War in our history textbooks, you can fucking forget it, all they get is endless politically correct babble about USA, MLK and the Civil rights movement.

  • Brett Nortje

    No, until we see responsibility being taken for fukkups instead of hiding behind MacSpin or resorting to mindless babble like this:

    ““This stupidity” will remain until we all understand our history instead of trying so so very hard to forget or to “rewrite” it.”

    Now, that kind of responsibility-taking is unlikely to happen.

    That is one of the reasons the only solution is to Trek – again.

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    December 30, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    “That is one of the reasons the only solution is to Trek – again.”

    Why did you avoid commenting on my link to the black Afrikaners of Onverwacht? How will they and the Coloureds fit into your new Volkstaat?

    “responsibility-taking ”

    Responsibility taking also includes embracing your own history boet. Instead of forever running away from it like a coward.

    “One of its most obvious effects is to have given the present, younger, generation something to react against. In conversations with Afrikaner students at the Afrikaans- medium universities, I found a wholesale rejection of the ideologically-slanted and distorted view of South Africa’s past which they felt they had been subjected to at their Afrikaans-medium schools. History is not a popular subject in the Afrikaans-medium universities; many students deliberately avoid it, choosing other subjects such as political science. Both Stellenbosch and Pretoria today have only about a third the number of students studying history that they had ten years ago. The Honours classes (i.e. final year specialisation by choice) are very small. The syllabuses are narrow. There is little opportunity for comparative study of other parts of the world, such as Asia or Latin America, where sea-borne trade and empire, slavery, and European settlement also occurred. Even the history of the continent of which South Africa is a part receives short shrift compared to the amount of time devoted to Europe. Volksgeschichte, in the form of Afrikaner cultural history, has a clear place in the syllabus and, in some places, is institutionalised as a separate department.

    History is more popular in the English-medium universities, with their more ‘liberal’ reputation – both in terms of what they teach and how they teach it”

    http://www.historytoday.com/iain-r-smith/new-lessons-south-africa%E2%80%99s-history

  • KwezeeemidlaloZentsentse

    best bafana bafana squad ever. Well done Gordon. Only 1 whity and 2 colourds. The rest are black. Sure looks like a south african team, certainly won’t be confused with australia as is the case with rugby and cricket teams. Go bafana bafana

  • Blue Ozone

    KwezeeemidlaloZentsentse
    December 30, 2012 at 19:47 pm

    “best bafana bafana squad ever. Well done Gordon. Only 1 whity and 2 colourds. The rest are black.”

    Congrats, what and extraordinary achievement – well done !

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    ‘Say, what do you think of the distance Mwangi has surreptitiously moved from his original ‘cultural’ take on the Zumababble?’

    What distance exactly? It began as a cultural critique and remains one. You misunderstood from the beginning because you reflexively jumped to the conclusion I was referring to resources and socio-economic rights — probably because you assume any talk even tangentially related to such things will result in you paying for something and you’d like to avoid that at any cost.

    You’ll note I emphasised such values as ‘care’ and ‘concern’ as much, or more, than resources. Budgets do reflect priorities and hierarchies of values but they are not the only indicator that matters. I was from the first instance talking about ppl who reject humanistic obligations of community and mutual aid and attempt to replace the solidarity one derives from them with relationships — bordering on a kind of spiritual fanaticism — with trees and dogs.

  • Blue Ozone

    KwezeeemidlaloZentsentse
    December 30, 2012 at 19:47 pm

    Pardon.

    On second thoughts.Where are the 50% women, 3% handicapped and 5.2% Indians?

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    ‘Why should I place more ‘value’ on a street kid than my dog (which I bought and paid for and feed every day)?

    You’re kidding, right?’

    I continue to contend that failure to affirm the greater value of children than dogs, or that we have higher-order obligations to them that we don’t have to dogs, ends in nihilism.

    I actually think this is so self-evident that the burden of disproving it lies on you.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    December 30, 2012 at 21:34 pm

    “I continue to contend that failure to affirm the greater value of children than dogs”

    Based on which philosophical construct.

    Bretts, mine, yours. Ronald Reagan or Jacob Zuma?

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    ‘Blue Ozone
    December 30, 2012 at 11:14 am
    Brett/Dmwangi.

    Comments please.’

    I’ve said before that each of the world’s great cultures has gifts and that a person can find a lot of ennobling ideas in them. And it is on that basis– of mutual respect, humility, and objectivitely discerning what is true in each, rather than cultural relativism– that peoples of different traditions learn to cooperate and live together.

    But I think you’ll find that ppl like MDF/PdV/Brett disagree and find it difficult to see anything true and insightful in African, Arab, Sinic, etc. culture. I also think that traditions are complex, variegated and evolve. Hence, while there may have been many admirable things in mid-late European culture (e.g. religious liberty), I find very little desirable in European post-modern nihilism. I guess my view is that European culture has largely decayed to the point where it’s irrelevant and I see little likelihood of it discovering philosophical truths in the future that are worthy of adoption.

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    ‘Based on which philosophical construct.’

    Er, I didn’t use a ‘philosophical construct.’ I said it’s self-evident and therefore the burden of proof is on you. It’s self-evident in that ppl will affirm its truth in the same manner if you ask them if the sky’s blue, other minds exist, etc. in fact, people who disaffirm it are usually labeled crazy or sociopathic and locked-up.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    December 30, 2012 at 21:58 pm

    I’m sorry Dmwani. Perhaps we both unwelcome remnants of the hippy era but in future it is not going to be that “self-evident’. read Brett, Maggs. The New Atheists are showing us the way. Perhaps they are totally ignorant of the Christian influences (perhaps arrogantly so) on the great Enlightenment project but I can assure you that is going to change.

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    You might be right.

    Btw, I had a nice chat with one of these ‘New Atheists,’ an America surgeon, during a flight a few months ago. Apparently, they prefer to be called ‘the Brights’ or ‘Upper-Right Tailers.’ He explained to me all about the illusion of consciousness and free will in the most polite, non-condescending manner as I sipped my Scotch.

    LOL!

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    December 30, 2012 at 22:40 pm

    Cheers. I think somehow, somewhere we are connecting on the same, incomprehensible vibe.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBC5URoF0s

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “I had a nice chat with one of these ‘New Atheists,’ an America surgeon, during a flight a few months ago. Apparently, they prefer to be called ‘the Brights’ or ‘Upper-Right Tailers.”

    Dmwangi, I have been asked to appear next month as a representatives of the so-called “Brights” by the producers of “60 Minutes”.

    Should I accept?

  • Dmwangi

    @MDF:

    Yes. I think your IQ and attitude are archetypal of the ‘Brights.’

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    December 31, 2012 at 2:14 am

    Dworky,

    You are so damned egotistical.

    That conversation was not about you or your fame and fortune.

    Did it strike you that more important matters are being discussed?

    I think not – if it did you would have asked more relevant questions of DM like what kind of scotch was he drinking!!!

  • Olds

    Could we please have a new post, possibly named Dwmangi and his Hangups, where we can more fully explore why someone with the leisure to talk incessantly, the means to own BMW’s (plural?!) And afford scotch wants the rest of us merely surviving taxpayers to pay for the things our taxmoney should pay for?

    Dwmangi
    Why don’t you harangue your government for closing orphanages, hospitals, mental institutions and dumbing down our education system to the point where a matric pass no longer means you willl be able to handle university? Leave the rest of us our dogs and plants and stop ruminating about “value” and “the poor” and “street children” which you clearly don’t understand or you wouldn’t drive a BMW.

    My cat costs so little in comparrison, rids my property of vermin and alerts me to intruders. Of course, if I could afford R250 000 000 for a state of the art security system which could have funded at least 10 orphanages… You aren’t interested in street kids, you simply want WHITE guys to pay.

  • Brett Nortje

    You gotta remember Mwangi is a refugee from Kenya….

  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    December 30, 2012 at 20:37 pm

    Yep. Ranked 87th in the world.

  • Dmwangi

    Olds:

    1) ‘You aren’t interested in street kids, you simply want WHITE guys to pay.’

    Bullshit. I pay more in taxes than most whites simply as a function of my good fortune and where I fall on the income and consumption scales. I’m just as happy to see my taxes pay to alleviate white poverty where it exists.

    2) ‘Why don’t you harangue your government for closing orphanages, hospitals, mental institutions and dumbing down our education system to the point where a matric pass no longer means you willl be able to handle university?’

    I explicitly repeated over and over I was making a cultural point that had little to do with resources. Most of our social problems, including the ones you listed, have less to do with a lack of resources and more to do with a lack of social capital (i.e. cooperation, solidarity, fellowship, mutual concern, trust, civic association, etc.) Tree-hugging and pet-worship are only manifestations of a cultural mind-set that makes spontaneous association and social capital formation difficult.

  • Dmwangi

    @Olds:

    In fact, when I speak of obligations to, for example, street kids, I am mostly referring to an obligation to affirm the ‘other’s’ dignity. This hardly even touches on resources. While it’s true he needs food to survive, beyond the bare necessities, providing him with resources would probably be an impediment to his flourishing as he’s unlikely to use them wisely. Mostly, then, what the child (or widow or whomever) needs is to know someone believes he’s valuable and an authority figure to instill values. The irony is that most ppl find it easier to give the kid some cash, which provides a meal (or worse), and not much beyond that.

    Why is it you and Brett seem incapable of thinking in any terms other than your pockets?

  • Olds

    Dwmangi

    “Most of our social problems, including the ones you listed, have less to do with a lack of resources and more to do with a lack of social capital (i.e. cooperation, solidarity, fellowship, mutual concern, trust, civic association, etc.)”

    Did it ever occur to you that the society we live in at present, where you only need to be WHITE to be guilty and where your president is more interested in insulting Western culture and spending all that tax money you pay on himself than actually helping his people, isn’t going to lead to a society where the values you mentioned, as valued and practiced by most developed Western countries, will happen.

  • Brett Nortje

    What exactly is a ‘cultural point’? Does it have to make sense? Perhaps that is why we all misunderstood our beloved President Heh heh heh

    The rest of us thought he was speaking about money….

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    December 31, 2012 at 10:09 am

    “Why is it you and Brett seem incapable of thinking in any terms other than your pockets?”

    Now that’s a difficult one! Perhaps because we have to fight 24/7/365 to keep the godless shameless ANC (and your De Vosses and Tutus) out of them?

    You probably haven’t noticed that it seems to be all they think about as well?

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    December 31, 2012 at 10:09 am

    Oh that’s OK then, because I definetely showed respect (and fear) the once I came close enough to some of these kids and I should probably not have ruined the moment by giving them my cell, except that one was holding a knife to my throat while his buddies were holding me down and going through my stuff. They weren’ really interested in my reaction to them or what I thought of them, just my (capital) resources, probably to buy the next pot of glue of which they reeked.

  • Beetle

    Dogs are a HOBBY. Street children are the product of poor or missing parental responsibility.
    Don’t compare apples with oranges.

    Our kids need fathers!!! Where are all the bastards that screw and move on?

    In the USA boys only schools were established where only male [black] teachers taught. This has had a degree of success in exposing single parent children to good male role models.

    Single sex schools have their merits

  • Dmwangi

    Olds
    December 31, 2012 at 10:13 am

    You have a legitimate point here wrt to corruption and gov malfeasance. However, that’s not an excuse for civil society to sit on its hands.

    Likewise, JZ also had a legitimate point regarding the decadence and anti- personalistic norms permeating contemporary Western culture. I have merely been aligning myself with my interpretation of this view.

    Olds
    December 31, 2012 at 10:25 am

    I have been on the receiving end of crime as well. What one needs to understand is that these guys did not come out of the womb that way. It’s precisely because we’ve all failed them: government, families, civil society, churches. The intervention in these social problems must occur much further upstream. Sitting on our hands and crowing about gov needs to solve these problems just leaves them to fester to the point where they seem insurmountable.

  • Olds

    I did not exactly sit on my hands wrt to those kids but tried to get them some help only to eventually be told by the police “to stop interfering” they are NICRO’s problem. Those kids graduated (to more crime?) under the bridge where they lived with me helplessly looking on. Don’t tell me about societal responsibly when I’m forced to watch the degradation of values I hold dear on a daily basis, unable to do anything about it. How many WHITE kids do you see on the street? Be honest. It must mean we actually care, doesn’t it? Why are there more and more of these orphans every day if our government is doing such a brilliant job? When last have you seen a social worker in action? Apparently a whole (expensive) department of them, in addition to that really insulting to women (expensive) department for women, children and the disabled. Can you single out a single sucees story for the above or are they just an excuse to waste even more tax money?

    People have time to ruminate on philosophy when they do not spend 12 hours a day, working their arses of just to survive and replace that which was appropriated by those who don’t work. Set the example for us by donating some of your time to those in need. Do keep us abreast of progress. I’ll be watching.

  • Blue Ozone

    Beetle
    December 31, 2012 at 10:35 am

    “Dogs are a HOBBY. Street children are the product of poor or missing parental responsibility. Our kids need fathers!!! Where are all the bastards that screw and move on?”

    You must be kidding, hey. According to De Vos and other White liberals the traditional African patriarchal family (and its even more perverted Western equivalent the nuclear family) are the root of all evil.

  • Blue Ozone

    Olds
    December 31, 2012 at 11:06 am

    “How many WHITE kids do you see on the street? Be honest. It must mean we actually care, doesn’t it?”

    Nowadays we see more and more, I imagine it is where you live (must be Cape Town) that insulates against the reality of White poverty. Because I disagree fundamentally with cde Zuma if he suggested pet care is a cultural and not a class phenomenon. More racial essentialist bullshit I’m sorry to say.

  • Olds

    Blue Ozone
    December 31, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Quite right, of the street kids I see around me most are coloured since I live in Cape Town, so it is less race than demographics that count but remember whom I was adressing, Mr I’ve-got-a-chip-on-my-shoulder so disagree with anything WHITE. I live in a racially mixed neighbourhood where we do not tolerate racism but sometimes one have to play devil’s advocate to make sense to the disenfranchised. Most of my darker buddies are quite secure with their culture and are tsking at Zuma’s latest utterances, most have well loved dogs and well cared for gardens and pay regular bills to garden services and vets.

  • Blue Ozone

    Olds
    December 31, 2012 at 11:51 am

    Agreed.

  • Dmwangi

    @Olds:

    My, you are a sensitive one.

    ‘so it is less race than demographics that count but remember whom I was adressing, Mr I’ve-got-a-chip-on-my-shoulder so disagree with anything WHITE….’

    Sorry to tell you Olds but I’m quite confident I know more about European culture than you do– with all that time to ruminate on its philosophy and all. JZ or I make even the slightest critique about ppl who treat their dogs like children, while walking over their homeless countrymen and suddenly we disagree with EVERYTHING white.

    Do you really expect everyone to bow down to a culture mired in debt, sexual licentiousness, political decay and reproductive suicide? Is European culture so unflawed as to be beyond criticism ? Africans hear about the inferiority of our culture all the time. But if anyone dare question the perfection of European culture it’s WWIII.

    @OB:

    ‘More racial essentialist bullshit I’m sorry to say.’

    I don’t think so. Distinct cultures do exist in the world. They are not collocated with race but are highly correlated. Hence, you don’t see many Chinese ppl going to the bush nor many Africans practicing Taoism. Some Africans have adopted Western pet practices, most have not. But it has little to do with class and more to do with cultural orientation. Based on personal experience, I am very dubious about the assertion that Africans become more Western oriented as they go up the income scale.

  • joeslis

    Dmwangi:

    “But if anyone dare question the perfection of European culture it’s WWIII”

    Who’s hysterical now?

    Europe has many cultures, and it’s all to do with language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

    Philosophy was invented by the Greeks, and look where it got them.

  • Dmwangi

    Joeslis:

    ‘Philosophy was invented by the Greeks, and look where it got them.’

    You cannot be serious? Philosophy was not invented. It arose with human consciousness and the ability to conceptualise things abstractly.

    ‘Perfection is in the eye of the beholder.’

    Only for a relativist. Which would also undercut your claim as the point I was making is that *I* find it implausible to claim Euro culture is perfect. Why object to *my* claim, then, if you’re a relativist?

    ‘Europe has many cultures….’

    Fine. If you’d rather I speak of European civilisation a la Toynbee or Spencer to indicate the highest level of cultural agglomeration, I will.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “I am very dubious about the assertion that Africans become more Western oriented as they go up the income scale”

    Dmwangi is right. I say so notwithstanding the illusion engendered by the fact that many of the fine things that only big money can buy – like Blue Label, BMW, and Boeing — did not feature very prominently in African “culture.”

  • Dmwangi

    @MDF:

    Ah, and here is where facile minds become confused. Chinese, Japanese, Indians, the Taliban etc. all consume Western products. But to say that Saudi Arabia has adopted Western values because its sheiks drive Rovers is patently absurd.

    Technology is agnostic wrt values. It tells us nothing about the user’s most deeply held beliefs or personal identity. Hence, some ppl use phones to track market prices, others to view pornography, others to maintain contact with kin. Some use planes for recreation, others for modes of transport, and others to crash into buildings. Etc.

    So MDF, if Europeans consume PRC products are they adopting Confucian mores and Chinese political values???????

  • Dmwangi

    @MDF:

    In future, I expect, as an Upper-Right Tailer, you’ll filter such inane claims before posting them.

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    December 31, 2012 at 18:06 pm

    “JZ or I make even the slightest critique about ppl who treat their dogs like children, while walking over their homeless countrymen”

    You’re not grasping the nuances. We think it is pretty rich coming from someone who misappropriated R240m of taxpayers money to build a presidential palace a la Yamoussoukro or Gbadolite. In fact, we feel such a person should stfu and sit down rather than lecture us how we look after our animals.

    Get it now?

    “Do you really expect everyone to bow down to a culture mired in debt, sexual licentiousness”

    Sexual licentiousness? That is an interesting claim.
    If you have a couple of hours spare do you think you could come up with an example of a culture with a higher death rate due to STDs than Europe?

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    I grasp the nuance. I’m not sure you do. Both your criticism and that of JZ’s can be simultaneously valid. They are not mutually exclusive. See: Dmwangi
    December 31, 2012 at 10:38 am

    I think you misunderstand the nature of epidemiology. It is quite consist that a virus spread via a behavioural interaction affects one population to a greater degree despite it engaging in the behaviour less often. In other words, Europeans can have unprotected sex with hundreds of partners and achieve the same level of HIV transmission risk as an African having unprotected sex with a relatively small number because of the discongruence of the prevalency in each population. Of course, if the population one is interacting with is disproportionate relative to the general rate, these factors must be accounted for: (e.g. Europeans engaging in unprotected anal sex with male prostitutes are likely require few partners to be at parody risk with KZN males having sex *exclusively* with many, many female virgins.)

    But again, I was mostly making a cultural critique. Culture of ‘sexual liberation ideology,’ exporting pornography all over the world, etc. emanated from Europe.

  • joeslis

    Dmwangi:

    “Why object to *my* claim, then, if you’re a relativist?”

    With the utmost respect, I did no such thing. I merely thought that the WWIII thing was a bit over the top. Lighten up a little, for Pete’s sake, will you?

    As for what I said about the Greeks, I was being facetious. Sorry.

  • Dmwangi

    Joeslis:

    I was using WWIII euphemistically- thought the hyperbole would signal I was being flip.

    Anyway, I toast a Scotch to you and may 2013 bring you and your’s many blessings.

  • Blue Ozone

    Yip.

    Happy New Year everybody. I’m celebrating to the Gregorian calendar.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    ‘Sexual licentiousness? That is an interesting claim.
    If you have a couple of hours spare do you think you could come up with an example of a culture with a higher death rate due to STDs than Europe?’

    If an ‘unwanted pregnancy’ is a malignancy akin to an STD, as most Europeans would have us believe, I’m not sure there is anywhere with a higher death rate.

    Providing abortions to adolescents seems pretty licentious.

  • Brett Nortje

    Good point!

  • Michael Osborne

    Dmwangi, I rather doubt that technology is culturally agnostic. You need not be a technological determinist to think that the internal-combustion engine plus the interstate highways changed something fundamental in American society. Ditto the ready availability of cheap and safe contraception.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    “most Europeans would have us believe that …. an ‘unwanted pregnancy’ is a malignancy akin to an STD”

    Dmwangi is right. At Hyde Park on Boxing Day, I heard a manifestly European woman describe her daughter’s pregnancy in almost exactly these terms.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “if Europeans consume PRC products are they adopting Confucian mores and Chinese political values?”

    Admittedly not. I always applaud the little disclaimer on Apple products – “Made in China” …. but “designed in CALIFORNIA.”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, the fact that the keeping of dogs is alien to our culture arises from the history of the past 10,000 years or so. Africans did not find the need to domesticate the canines indigenous to Africa for hunting or kraal-protection purposes. By contrast, their “European” counterparts wantonly kidnapped wolf cubs and raised them as adjuncts to the hunt. It was this that led to the RACIST reification of dogs — not to mention the licentiousness of so-called “DOGGY” style.

    Thanks.

  • Blue Ozone

    Africa: Where black is not really beautiful

    “The World Health Organisation released a report in June which revealed that Nigerians are the highest users of such products: 77% of Nigerians use the products on a regular basis. They are followed by Togo with 59%; South Africa with 35%; and Mali at 25%.

    South Africa banned products containing more than 2% of hydroquinone – the most common active ingredient in in the 1980s. But it is easy to see creams and lotions containing the chemical on the stalls here. Some creams contain harmful steroids and others mercury.
    Jackson Marcelle Studies have found that men are also beginning to bleach their skin

    While skin-lightening creams have been used by some South Africans for many years, they have become more common recently with the influx of people from countries such as Nigeria and Democratic Republic of Congo, where they are even more widespread.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20444798

    But before the CRT theorists embark on a frothy tangent about White Surpemacist Conspiracy – it does appear as if nobody has a problem with millions of white people all over the planet trying to darken their skin cause there is nothing more ugly than a ginger or pink skinned liberal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_tanning

  • Olds

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 1, 2013 at 11:20 am

    That is an important point about culture and if only I could convince Dwmangi to leave the futile (for him ) contemplation of philosophy for a little while and pick up a good primer on ecology and behavioral science he would realise that we are all a product od our environment and culture is not static nor religious practice. Western culture in Africa I’d as different to Western culture in Britain as is African culture. We are all now living in the global village and I predict that Nationalism is going to be the next victim in the evolution of mankind. I am not religious (not atheist either) but have see the point in ancestor reverence from an evolution point of view. After all who passed on our genes that made us successful? That is why, when I need advice I reflect on what my father would have done and thank him for the common sense he taught me. We all change each other when in close proximity which is why I find this new trend to recreat e a Zulu nation by constant reminder of Zulu culture ridiculous if not dangerous.

  • Olds

    BTW Dwmangi higher sensitivity means the ability to sense more which comes about as a result of evolution. I therefor take your comment as a compliment. Steady on the scotch it kills brain cells.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Happy 2013 everyone!

    The good news is WHO LET THE DOGS OUT! is not going to be our new national anthem.

    The bad news is it might as well be for the next SEVEN years!

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 1, 2013 at 10:45 am

    Dworky,

    “Admittedly not. I always applaud the little disclaimer on Apple products – “Made in China” …. but “designed in CALIFORNIA.””

    That’s nothing dude – I applaud something more deeply spiritual.

    The humble apple itself was made in The Garden of Eden but designed by god!

    WDYSTT?

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Why is everyone attacking Dmwangi?

    He’s such a nice guy.

  • Olds

    Auntie Maggs have a happy bunny chow year! I vote we celebrate our differences (culturally) whilst embracing our otherness. I love bunnychow O)

  • joeslis

    “Anyway, I toast a Scotch to you and may 2013 bring you and your’s many blessings”

    Thanks, Bra D. And the same to you (I’m toasting with an extra-strong espresso), as well as “Auntie” Maggs, Brett, Ozone, Gospodin F/Prof MO, Ms Olds and everybody else, not forgetting Prof “Pierretjie” who so kindly provides the platform for us to air our foibles.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    joeslis
    January 1, 2013 at 15:35 pm

    LOL Joeslis,

    I guess it’s true that inside each of us, there’s an “auntie” struggling to get out!

    Have a great one.

  • Dmwangi

    @MO:

    Notwithstanding your skepticism, you’re wrong.

    Technology is agnostic about values because technology is always a means one applies to one’s own self-defined ends. Your examples are of the widespread *adoption* of certain technologies for certain *purposes.* Technology (e.g. Atomic energy) is not capable of defining its own purposes (nukes or electricity). Only man can do that.

    Moreover, my basic point is that you, Olds, MDF are living in a fantasy if you think History is moving us to your Hegelian utopian of a homogenous world culture built on your holy Trinity of liberal/secular/individualism. The ignorance (and arrogance) here astounds. Not only do you have no clue, then, about what most of your fellow citizens value but anyone who has traveled to the Middle East or Asia will immediately see that, while guys are consuming IPads and Nikes , they are in no meaningful sense becoming more Westernised. The same way Upper-Right Tailers like yourselves who consume Lenovo, Samsung, Sony, Toyota are not becoming culturally Sinic.

    Africa, Asia, Middle East will continue to trade with Western countries– as they have for a millenia. But will not be adopting Western mores any time soon. Sorry to dispel your delusion.

  • Olds

    AK47 anyone? It even appears on a flag, that object of almost universal warm fuzzy feelings.

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    January 1, 2013 at 20:48 pm

    Yesterday I took my Belgian Shepherd puppy to Spar and walked her around a bit while waiting for my takeaways. Unacceptable display of whitishness, I know, and the prayers from members of my culture hoping I completed the journey safely were almost audible.

    So my question to you, my dear Mwangi, is whether a responsible leader who hosts such vulnerable minorities should be engaging in such cultural critiques?

  • Brett Nortje

    Olds says:
    January 1, 2013 at 20:55 pm

    Indeed. The intention behind the ANC’s attempt to disarm white South AFricans was exactly in the same spirit as Zuma’s foot-in-mouth tirade.

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett

    LOL…. Somehow you don’t strike me as the ‘vulnerable’ type and if you were genuinely concerned I think you would have refrained from doing it.

    I think it’s a bit of a stretch to characterise JZ’s remarks as incitement. In which case, should we stop criticism of all minorities? How about criticism of amakwerekwere or ‘refugees’ as you referred to one yesterday? I don’t think we should. I say everyone is fair game as long as it’s not done to demonise others and incite violence against them.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Dmwangi

    “Technology is agnostic about values because technology is always a means one applies to one’s own self-defined ends.”

    But Dmwangi, the culturally-derived and personally-adopted “ends” to which you refer are not set in stone. They evolve over time in a way that cannot but be affected by new technologies, whether locally developed or imported.

    Consider my earlier example. The emerging technology of represented by the internal-combustion engine, made affordable to the middle class by Henry Ford, triggered one of the most significant changes in American society – the move to the suburbs and urban sprawl. That was in turn associated with white flight from the cities, the development of black urban ghettos, etc. All of this adds up to a seismic shift in American culture. And this in turn generates new “ends” — associated with geographic distancing and autonomy that was unthinkable before the new technology. One can think of countless other examples; would you wish to deny that the introduction by colonialists of firearms significantly impacted indigenous cultures in Africa and America?

    You correctly point out that there is no sign of Chinese-made products acting a transmission belt for Sinic culture. I think that is largely because, so far, the PRC is not sending new technologies or ideology Westwards. When the time comes that tens of thousands of US and German students flock to Chinese universities, one may well see the China exerting an important cultural influence. For now, the traffic mostly runs the other way.

    You say that me “Olds, MDF are living in a fantasy if you think History is moving us to your Hegelian utopian of a homogenous world culture.” I cannot speak for the others, but this OTT straw-manism is unworthy of you. (Speaking of unworthiness, why do you dignify the moronic ramblings of MDF with any response at all, even indirect? Would he not be more likely to disappear altogether if we politely ignored him?)

  • Olds

    Modus Operandi

    “Would he not be more likely to disappear altogether if we politely ignored him?”

    Would that work for Dwmangi? At least DMF is consistent and sometimes makes sense.

  • Dmwangi

    @MO:

    I grant you that new technologies can open up new ends/horizons not heretofore contemplated or possible, however, it is still fundamentally the values of the user that will determine whether those ends are sought. Think of the Amish or Santorum wrt to your previous examples. Or think of the fact that genocide violates most ppl’s values that nukes are not used as a *means* for that *purpose*, despite the *possibility* that they could be. (Same is true of cloning or eugenics, etc.) So while it is true that technology creates new possibilities, it is human beings who decide– based on their values, which arise not from technology but from culture, religion, history, and philosophy– whether those possibilities/ends are moral or not.

    ‘. I think that is largely because, so far, the PRC is not sending new technologies or ideology Westwards. When the time comes that tens of thousands of US and German students flock to Chinese universities, one may well see the China exerting an important cultural influence.’

    I’m not sure this is true. But even if I stipulate this as well, it should be plain as day that Saudi Arabia or Japan are technologically modern countries, with many Western-educated professionals, but cannot in any coherent sense be called ‘Western’ countries. This is fundamentally because the ends they value are not dictated by adopting particular products/technologies. Talk to just about anyone in the Middle East or Asia and they’ll tell you they respect American science and loathe its culture.

    You’re arguing a form of ‘modernisation theory’ that has been widely discredited for about 40 years.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 1, 2013 at 20:48 pm

    But do you in essence agree that all cultures with time evolve and assimilate parts of other cultures – up the point where it becomes “claimed”, sometime even due to pure ignorance.

    For example – I believe everybody would agree that playing and watching football is a very vibrant part of African culture just as much as rugby is seen almost inseparable from Afrikaner identity. None of those two sports can however be described as “traditional” African experiences.

    Look at the example of pet-care and how Zuma (erroneously) believe that Africans do not over-emotionalise their bonds with their dogs. I know for a fact that White farmers do not think twice about shooting stray dogs, just as my nephew from the farm has no problem with cutting a sheep’s throat, I however cringe at the very idea of killing any animal myself (except for insects of course). In Afrikaans they call us the soft “stad japies”, but I doubt it very much if it is some deeply embedded racial characteristic, culture is not such a simplistic phenomena and has just as much a function of class and rural versus city ways of life.

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    Of course syncretisms occur. However, the examples you cite are superficial.

    An Egyptian and a Brit may share an affinity for football but that doesn’t tell you if off the pitch one is a Salafi polygamist, and the other a wine-drinking, gay activist.

    Cultures are functions of religion and philosophy. Hence, if you want to understand the differences between the two, you need to be familiar with the seminal ideas, principles, and texts underlying their worldviews/assumptions. I.e. When we speak of an African ‘tradition’ we are speaking not primarily of particular practices, rituals, commodities, or hobbies. We are speaking of the values undergirding these practices, which give arise to their cultural importance in the first place. (E.g. Respect for elders can be manifested in various ways and is therefore open to revision. But jettisoning this as a value, is not.)

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele

    http://m.sowetanlive.co.za/news/?articleId=7622571
    Christmas in LIMPOPO less new years stampedes.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Olds

    Dwmangi
    “Cultures are functions of religion and philosophy”
    Poppycock
    Philosphers and those who start religions mostly do their work as a result of the way societies live. In the case of a religion it can be seen to steer the society in a different direction, I.e. Applying a pressure to an already flowing stream which is flowing as a direct result of topography, that is environment. Like damming (damning) the flow, usually resulting in unnatural pressures which cause in bigger catastrophies further down the stream of time.

    In the case of philosophers, well, these days, they sit in their ivory towers and cloud their bewilderment at what society has become and how they lost the plot when they lost logic to the mathematicians by endleslly discussing dead philosophers in obfuscating language which is only useful to the brotherhood of philosophers and has everyone else wondering when they’re going to get a real job and start contributing to society. Theoretical physicists seems to be filling the vacuum they leave.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    January 2, 2013 at 8:19 am

    Gwebecimele
    January 2, 2013 at 8:28 am

    Hayibo Gwebs!

    The world really did not end on 21 December 2012.

    And 2 Jan 2013 is just “Another day in Paradise”

    This year FUCK THE POOR! is bigger, better and coming your way soon!

  • Gwebecimele

    http://www.iol.co.za:80/news/south-africa/western-cape/3-dead-4-000-homeless-after-new-year-blazes-1.1446663

    Ban the damn SHACKS!!!
    Or make this a yearly test run for Disaster Management & Annual Sympathy Week

  • Olds

    Auntie Maggs
    “This year FUCK THE POOR! is bigger, better and coming your way soon!”

    Like 4000 families losing their homes in Khayelitsha on the 1st day?
    Very prophetic or is it philosophic.

  • Olds

    Gwebecimele

    “Ban the damn SHACKS!!!”

    The DA tried that and got accused of denying people’s right to live where they choose. Which is why there are shacks even halfway up a National Heritage site.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    January 2, 2013 at 0:03 am

    Hey Prof MO,

    Have a super 2013.

    Well done to Pres Zuma for stimulating an intensive debate as Mac Maharaj predicted (so it’s really true that Mac knows best) – he’s a wily one that Professor Zuma.

    I need to rethink my initial response that he was just talking kak again when he said Black people who straighten their hair, use lotion or care for their dogs are COCONUTS.

    More so in the light of his accurate snap “I know what I’m doing”. Those of us, especially me who laughed at him at the time are laughing least now in the face of the overwhelming support he’s received from the world’s oldest liberation movement. I dunno if Kgalema Motlanthe is laughing (or smiling) – rumour has it that he’s not licking his wounds cos he’s long-suffering from tongue-tiedinitis.

    So when Zuma said Black people mustn’t try to be White people, he probably meant that White people can do all those exciting things but Black people must not complain about his cattle-tunnel (cos only White people or COCONUTS do that moaning stuff and spend lots on hair-care).

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, WDYS about the kick in the teeth Afrikaans poet and relatively scandal-free ANC member Mathews Phosa got?

    P.s. Is Philander in awesome form or what?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, I won’t pretend that my attachment to Matilda did not initially raise ethnic eyebrows on the Adriatic littoral. But we have reached the point where few people view particular animal companionships as associated with any particular grouping.

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    January 2, 2013 at 11:11 am

    Hey G,

    What’s less than 46?

    Philander – hmm, umm, er, let’s see – is he a WHITE person?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Dworky!!

    Shut up – can’t you see that I’m politely
    ignoring you??

    P.s. Does Matilda use feather straighteners?

    Sun tan lotion?

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dear WHITE people …

    i.e. Brett, Ozone Guy, Dmwangi, Khosi – this one’s for you!

    http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/gillianschutte/2013/01/02/dear-white-people/

  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 2, 2013 at 16:52 pm

    Is there a term for WHITES who have forsaken their own business to become unasked for champion of BLACKS, who do not see the racism in shaving all people of similar pigmentation level with the same strait razor and who have no idea how massively insulting to people of darker pigmentation the assumption that they need a WHITE spokesperson to fight their cause. I think the pressie made it quite clear that WHITES should mind their own bussiness.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Olds
    January 2, 2013 at 17:14 pm

    Olds,

    “Is there a term for WHITES who have forsaken their own business to become unasked for champion of BLACKS,”

    Yes there are a few terms.

    People, human beings, #CleverWhites, Brett Kebble, #WhiteMessiah (aka Cde Jeremy) – take your pick!

  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 2, 2013 at 17:34 pm

    Peole and Humans would include Coconuts and normal pale and dark people, even THE POOR and if you are going to include impersonations why not put Shaik at the top of the list?

    It’s OK though, someone told me the term would be Topdeck.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Old

    “Is there a term for WHITES …?”

    Olds, please try to avoid the term “WHITES,” which many of us on this blog find offensive.

    The preferred term is “WHITISTS,” or “WHITISH people.”

    Thanks.

  • joeslis

    Maggs:

    “#Clever Whites”

    Humour me: what does the # stand for?

  • joeslis

    Fass:

    “The preferred term is “WHITISTS,” or “WHITISH people”

    Who prefers this? Certainly not “people of European origin”.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 2, 2013 at 16:52 pm

    That is a load of self-loathing rubbish maggs. It is in fact time for White people to wake the fuck up and take note of the guilt trip that is now *way pas it sell-by date*. It is not White people’s fault that the government is corrupt and betrays all South Africans. Whites don’t continue to elect these corrupt leaders, Black people do.

    Further White people only make up 30% of the South African middle/upper classes – it is time now time for the middle class of all races and ethnicities as a group to start addressing issues of inequality.

    Kind regards, hope that cleared up the confusion.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ joeslis

    Because you are a newcomer to this blog, we can forgive your ignorance of the consensus that emerged following our discussion of the concept of “whitishness,” as explored in the seminal work of Professor Samantha Vice. See Journal of Social Philosophy Volume 41, Issue 3 at 323-342.

    Thanks.

  • Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 2, 2013 at 21:12 pm

    Lets face it. In my books Gillian Schutte gets a C minus for “originality”. She could just as well have cut-and-pasted from the seminal CRT works of Professor Samantha Vice or [Stellenbosch, Broederbond/UCT] Professor Chameleon De Vos.

  • Olds

    DMF (still think cool name for a band)
    I’m stumped, but then, I’m neither Coconut nor Topdeck just a humble tea girl who is reeaally going to have to learn fornicating at demand for 2013, whatever do you mean by “whitishness”? I keep picturing a Fin or Scott in a bath of pickle in the dead if winter and, if you don’t mind, need to be up before dawn so need my kettle boiling sleep… Would you mind to elucidate?

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    True. And yet…. Is this incorrect?

    ‘Not everything is about white people being accused of racism. Sometimes it is about the black middle class and whether or not they have adopted vile white practices.’

  • Blue Ozone

    Lets me try and help out Olds.

    http://spacrs.wordpress.com/what-is-critical-race-theory/

    “CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color. CRT also rejects the traditions of liberalism and meritocracy.”

    In principle it implies if you are WHITE you are a RACIST. No matter if you are Jeremy Cronin or if you grew up in Coronation Park.

  • Olds

    Mr BO please do not harangue Auntie Magg, she has of course noticed what no-one else (till now) has, that despite assurances to the contrary, the world did indeed come to an end 21 12 21 and if you keep taking your valium or scotch, nothing much matter anymore, and the smell of burning pallet wood is to be ignored since it does the harp playing no justice. Lighten up dude, like cinders in the wind.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 2, 2013 at 21:46 pm

    Oh I noted that. Lets face it, we are now venturing into the rather dodgy unscientific and dare I say “postmodern” mythology of the “noble savage” versus the “blue eyed devil” reinvented for us by his honourable Elijah Muhammad.

    “The Nation of Islam was founded in 1931 by Wallace D Fard. He presented himself as a Muslim prophet and preached a message of “black redemption within Islam”. He claimed “the Asiatic Black Man” had been the original inhabitant of the earth. The white race had been given 6,000 years to rule and eventually whites and white Christianity would be destroyed. Elijah Muhammad, who became leader of the Nation after Fard disappeared, developed this. He claimed originally that the black race had inhabited the moon and that at one time the moon and earth were one. A black scientist, Yakub, supposedly caused an explosion that separated the two. The first people to inhabit the earth were members of a black tribe called Shabazz. While these theories seem, they are no more so than the Christian theory of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. However, white Christianity in all its permutations has been developed over centuries. It has been used to justify slavery, racism and imperialism. It is a religion that the ruling class needed and continue to uphold.”

    http://socialistalternative.org/publications/malcolmx/ch2.html

    Should i just call you Shabazz from now on?

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    Huh? I’m am cursorily familiar with Elijah Muhammad’s stuff but I fail to see how it equates with criticising/warning fellow Africans not to adopt post-modernism, nihilism, materialism, rabid individualism, licentiousness, etc, etc. I take these to be the ‘vile’ practices being referred to.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 2, 2013 at 22:08 pm

    “…fellow Africans not to adopt post-modernism, nihilism, materialism, rabid individualism, licentiousness, etc, etc. I take these to be the ‘vile’ practices being referred to.”

    Well _ I think you are wrong. Just by judging from her autobiography.

    “Feminist, filmmaker, writer, poet, activist and author, Gillian Schutte has a degree in African politics, an MA in Creative Writing and a Film Director’s qualification from the Binger Institute, Netherlands.”

    WHITE FEMINIST. Binger Institute, NETHERLANDS.

    Does that not set of your “post-modernism” alarm bells?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Joeslis,

    # means HASH!

    In other words WHITES make a hash of it.

    As in Graeme Smith made ONE run.

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    Then what are the ‘vile’ practices the black middle classes are adopting that she is referring to?

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 2, 2013 at 22:46 pm

    “Then what are the ‘vile’ practices the black middle classes are adopting that she is referring to?”

    I assumed deviousness, dishonesty, rampant materialism, insatiable greed, shameless corruption, fucking the poor and then blaming everybody else.

    That kind of thing.

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    That can’t be right. Read the quote again:

    ‘Not everything is about white people being accused of racism.’

    When JZ or Mbeki speak of black corruption or Blade speaks of black greed, etc. whites applaud. They do not mistake them for speaking about white racism.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 2, 2013 at 23:02 pm

    Dmwangi. She is saying that even black corruption/greed/materialism is also because of white people corrupting them with their “vile” ways.

    Black people cannot ever be guilty of any moral vice – by nature because unlike the evil blue eyed devils they have all inherited the pure and morally virtuous Shabazz genes.

    If you want to dispute her “postmodernist” leanings just read her “Post-Structuralist-Deconstructionist” novel.

    http://gillianschutte.co.za/blog/category/after-just-now-a-novel-ludicppress

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    But wrt to that particular sentence she is not speaking about herself. She’s speaking of whites who perceive to be accused of racism when blacks chastise other blacks for certain ‘vile’ practices that are deemed white. But most whites don’t get offended when blacks criticise other blacks about corruption or greed. Mostly they become giddy. So she must be referring to something that whites, in general, themselves –discluding her– associate with their own culture. E.g. The canine critique.

  • Blue Ozone

    Gwebecimele
    January 2, 2013 at 23:02 pm

    “A line of young men sits on the concrete next to him. They have recently been fired from a local brick making company, Kim Bricks, which, despite being set up as a cooperative, is reportedly part-owned by the Audi Q7-driving mayor who is said to be in the pocket of the local farmers.”

    You see gwebs. It will always be the blue eyed devil’s fault.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 2, 2013 at 23:28 pm

    Then she would have put “vile” in inverted commas. Except if she believes she distances herself from the Wshite Feminist cause. Or does he agree that the post-modernist offspring fem-crit is in fact “vile”.

    Then I suppose I just don’t understand. What is this part about?

    “I call on white people to recognise how whiteness has unconsciously used blackness as a conduit for its own darkness and unacknowledged savagery.”

    Dmwangi please explain.

  • Dmwangi

    No, the point is she truly believes they are vile but she, unlike her fellow whites, doesn’t miscomprehend the critique blacks make of the vileness for accusations of white racism. She’s claiming that her fellow whites are paranoid and reactionary in that any black on black critique of something impinging on white culture is ipso facto an accusation of white racism when really it is an indictment of a white cultural practice (e.g. licentiousness), not necessarily a charge of racism. As you witness with my thread above, even the slightest critique I make of European culture– even flat denial of its perfection– results in a similar kind of reaction.

    ‘I call on white people to recognise how whiteness has unconsciously used blackness as a conduit for its own darkness and unacknowledged savagery.”’

    I suppose she means that if you can define ‘blackness’ in a deviant or inhuman kind of way it’s easier to rationalise mistreating the ‘other.’ Similar to the word association I pointed out with ‘street urchin.’ I happen to disagree, though. I don’t know what the word ‘black’ conjurs in the minds of whites but it is nothing negative to me.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele
  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 3, 2013 at 0:00 am

    I have to humbly confess I d not understand much of your interpretations nor do I understand much of what is meant:

    “I call on white people to recognise how whiteness has unconsciously used blackness as a conduit for its own darkness and unacknowledged savagery.”

    And I honestly mean when I say I don’t even understand it, therefore I have no control over it and I can never fix it, nor do I believe my racist WHITE son will ever be able to even if he tried.

    Which brings me back to my new political conviction – it is better for us unconsciously racist/evil/licentious WHITES to negotiate a form of self-determination – so that we can stop having such negative influences on the noble Blacks.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    Apologies I haven’t articulated my interpretation better.

    I’m trying to say we need to get to a point where we accept that nobody’s culture is perfect so if blacks critique white culture, whites aren’t so reactionary they feel the need to have separatist movements and if whites make legitimate critiques of African culture, we don’t automatically hurl accusations of racism or re-litigate crimes against humanity.

    Seems reasonable to me. Night.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 3, 2013 at 0:51 am

    I guess it would be useful to know the difference between “critique” and/or stereotyping or vilifying. Don’t you think. Vilification could have quite dire long term consequences for an ever shrinking minority with very little political power. Under such circumstances “separatist movements” may not be “reactionary” at all.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hmmm!

    Ok people, you know the drill.

    Ozone Blue aka Blue Ozone aka Thabo Botha aka pain-in-the ass – What do you say to these poor people????

    http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-11-19-mazista-no-water-no-electricity-scant-hope

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 3, 2013 at 1:53 am

    I say it is a big problem in a country where the super rich black people can afford to spend R 18 mil on a wild animal like a buffalo bill, magss. The same super rich people that are also probably complicit in the massacre of the poor. Then the same super rich go on to become elected deputy president of the governing party (under a “socialist” ticket nogal) by the very same poor people who haven’t got no water no electricity – only to get away with it by blaming a tiny ethnic minority using the most blatantly racist of political propaganda.

    That I call a tragedy, a recipe for disaster, something that I can personally do nothing to change or avoid. The answer is obvious though, it is time for “new think” – especially for us racist WHITES otherwise we are pretty much fucked.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Dmwangi

    “it is still fundamentally the values of the user that will determine whether those ends are sought. Think of the Amish or Santorum wrt to your previous examples”

    Dmwangi, the Amish are quintessentially the exception that proves the rule. As for Santorum, I strongly suspect that he is a prime hypocrite. If his daughter was raped, his anti-abortion absolutism would evaporate, I think.

    I do not think that you can believe that societally-shared “ends” – if that is how you wish to define culture – are static. And you cannot deny that new technologies, whether endogenous or “imposed,” contribute significantly to change. (I would not, of course, contend that such is the only source of change.)

    I note you did not respond to my question as to whether the introduction of firearms had affected indigenous cultures – by, e.g., disrupting traditional power structures based upon leaders’ ability to command large groups of men armed with sticks and spears to enforce their authority.

    “Talk to just about anyone in the Middle East or Asia and they’ll tell you they respect American science and loathe its culture.”

    That is not my experience at all. But I would of course grant that certain cultures are, for a variety of reasons, resilient in the face of foreign influences. Often, though, this requires enormous efforts on the part of the political powers that be.

    You ascribe to me modernisation theory. Once again, a straw man. But we can discuss that separately.

  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    January 3, 2013 at 8:50 am

    Thank you. You have now arrived at the point I did 15 years ago when I had to acknowledge to myself the ANC was hell-bent on disarming an unthreatening ethnic minority.

    And had to start asking ‘Why?’

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    January 2, 2013 at 23:02 pm

    Oops Gwebs – I see I posted the same piece later.

    Anyway since this affects poor people I’ll gently suggest FUCK THE POOR!

    Nyarenda does not live in her house. It has no water, no electricity and no furniture. She’s unable to take a wheelbarrow to the closest working tap so she stays in her daughter’s house. Her RDP is hollow. Two dead frogs are sprawled in the dust of her bathtub. Maggots writhe in the black shallows of the toilet bowl.

    As President Zuma wisely pointed out, people like Nyarenda must stop acting like WHITE people – flushing toilets are a colonial thing. She must go shit in the bush and stop acting like a #CleverBlack.

    What the fuck does she want with a bathtub anyway? She must deconstruct and decolonise her mind. We saw how much WHITE chattering class hassles our esteemed President, Professor Zuma had when he took a shower after having sex.

    So Nyarenda, be proudly Black – get a dog and kick it!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “ANC [is] hell-bent on disarming an unthreatening ethnic minority.”

    Brett is right. And now that guns have been removed from the hands of the minority, Zuma wants to “kick” out the last line of defense — dogs. Soon whites will reduced to resisting GENOCIDE with bread knives and sticks!

  • Brett Nortje

    Many a true word…..MANY!

  • Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    January 3, 2013 at 9:22 am

    This needs to be addressed with political solution negotiated through the UN in terms of section 235 of the Constitution.

    Arming ourselves only reinforces the impression that we are “militant extremists”, you can see much of this game is propaganda, and it is the support of the international community that is at stake.

  • Olds

    Blue Ozone
    January 2, 2013 at 21:46 pm

    All you proved there is that the American Dream, I.e. Excessive consumption build with slave labour could’t last and its whiplash guilt does not export well.

    Do we really need the Americans to show us the way? We know how their dream crashed. Most of our ancestors: rifle totin, horse riding roughnecks or spear carrying cattle herders did just fine with defining their identities and goals before this American angst about slavery infiltrated our minds.

    I have more faith in Africans of all hue to screw up in our own homegrown ingenious way.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 3, 2013 at 9:52 am

    Dworky,

    You lie!

    Our President, Professor Zuma, did not deny WHITE people their dogs.

    All he said that Black people should not have metrosexual dogs.

    And correctly so – if unchecked the next thing we’ll see is these #CleverBlacks taking their dogs for facials and pedicures!

  • Brett Nortje

    Blue Ozone says:
    January 3, 2013 at 9:57 am

    The facts are we were armed. And sought peace with our enemy. And then 600 000 of our old people were disarmed by that enemy. And then Genocide Watch pegged us at Stage 6 of genocide twice in three years.

  • Blue Ozone

    Olds
    January 3, 2013 at 9:59 am

    Well in fact it is nothing but Black Supremacism. As you can see from much of Dmwangi’s/Gillian Schutte’s philosophy WHITES (and their culture) are inherently degenerate, *morally inferior* to the noble Africans to the point where they even *unconsciously* project their “own darkness” and “unacknowledged savagery” on to the noble Black people. You see the same thread in some of PdV’s writings, he for example blames homophobia/xenophobia/you-name-it on the African continent as yet another “legacy of colonialism”, i.e. the degenerate White man perverting the noble Black man who seems incapable to act as its own moral agent, probably out of even a more noble naivety.

  • Brett Nortje

    And now, as Dworky so lucidly points out, Pangaman is aiming at the dogs that are often the last line of defence in murderous crimes in which the initiating act is trespass.

    Well done, Dworky!

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    January 3, 2013 at 10:19 am

    Hey G,

    You know a lot about dogs and GENOCIDE.

    Will hair straightener and lotion turn a Black poodle into a White poodle?

  • Olds

    @Brett – your angst is getting to you. Guns and dogs? Yikes, this is the 21st Century even, Amabhuri have access to high tech security especially if they own farms, I.e. Have capital. Have even the Boere forgotten how to “maak ‘n plan”. It would mean that this entire debate is none other than the pot calling the kettle black.

    This can be clearly seen by the Mazista silliness. Towns exist for a reason, when that reason evaporates the town will ususally devolve to a ghost town and people move away to where there are prospects. In post apartheid SA though a town like this will, at great cost be transformed into a museum for “apartheid victims” instead of using the money to help these people reskill and relocate. It is overcapitalisation of what seems to be worthless property, something any home owner who pays their own bond knows to guard against . The money would have been very wellcome to rebuilt the shack towns around cities, where there is work for those who don’t mind doing it. And then: they can’t cook outside when it rains? Oh smaltz und smertz. I supppose rigging a canopy is completely out of the question since the govt forgot to give them one and building an outside oven as any pre-entitlites South Africans could figure in a day is totally out of the question?

    What really irks me is some journalist in search of a Pullitzer giving this all credence with really bad, one-sided journallism (lots of photos and flimsy story), mostly emotional.

  • Olds

    Can I have Nyarenda’s tank since she isn’t using hers? I cannot afford one and also can no longer afford the water in CT.

  • Brett Nortje

    What’s wrong with black poodles, Maggs? I like ‘em!

  • Brett Nortje

    Olds, you have to see the bigger picture.

    When an ethnic majority disarms an ethnic minority it is always a precursor to genocide.

  • Brett Nortje

    All my fabvourite breeds are black, Maggs, or ought to be. Dobermanns. Labradors. Dachshunds. Pitbulls.

  • Olds

    Brett Nortje
    January 3, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    No, I don’t and yes that is the case but not in this case. You are being silly. Guard dogs are worlds apart from the pampered pets Zuma refered to and are employed on farms owned by all colours the world over since they are a cheap non-unionised security and labour force, usually fed on meat offcuts and pap and nver see the insides of a doggy parlour.

    Most of the genocides that have happened to minorities happened because the minority simply will not accept the changed status quo (Kenya, Zim, Angola) and wants to hang onto the overlord status of the past for as long as possible. (It is my right, my father and his father did it this way, blah, blah). In the other case it happens because the minority fails to see that the majority has all the power through sheer numbers and don’t give a rats arse what happens to the minority, no matter how much they whine (Zim again and again) and will swat them if they become to annoying (Tsvengarai’s wife’s “accident”). So keep whining about your guns as a minority or start seeing yourself as a South African with a contribution to make. Ever noticed how ex-German colonies had the least amount of transition bloodshed and asked yourself why?

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 3, 2013 at 11:06 am

    I would have thought you have an Indian dog?

  • Maggs Naidu

    @ Brett – People should be Black.

    And dogs White.

    WDYSTT?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Ozone Boy – there’s no such thing as an “Indian dog”.

    We’re all such nice people.

    Some White people are nice too, a few.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs, Olds, Brett, BlueBoy

    Our people are not interested in so-called “dogs,” which are redolent of WHITISM.

    Also, a leopard can beat a dog anyday.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu
    January 3, 2013 at 13:46 pm

    “Ozone Boy – there’s no such thing as an “Indian dog”.

    but there is definitely something like an African dog. They call it the Zimbabwean Ridgeback.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesian_Ridgeback

    I believe Dmwangi owns one that he nicknamed Idi !

  • Maggs Naidu

    Dworky,

    Deconstruct your mind please.

    It’s a cultural thing for Professor Zuma to wear a Leopard skin. Endangered animals thingy is a Whitist plot.

    We know what we are doing.

  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu
    January 3, 2013 at 13:46 pm
    Ozone Boy – there’s no such thing as an “Indian dog”.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajapalayam_(dog)

    Am I being too literal again?

    Mighty fine looking animal, I dig your cats too.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu
    January 3, 2013 at 14:35 pm

    I don’t always know if “we know what we are doing” maggs. We just elected Cyril ‘the Butcher from Marikana’ Ramaphosa as the new deputy president of the ANC – the oldest liberation movement ever.

    And I’m still worried about all these “terminally ill” friends of the Mafia roaming about free on our splendid BBBEEE golf courses somewhere between Cape Town and the Forth Estate.

  • Dmwangi

    Point Reyes – A man has been swept to sea and drowned while trying to save his dog hit by a rogue wave on a California beach.

    The US Coast Guard says the man and his wife were walking on the beach on New Year’s Day when a wave overtook the dog.

    The San Francisco Chronicle reports the couple went into the water to rescue the dog, but the man was swept away.

    His body was found about three hours later. The wife and dog made it safely to shore.

    Names haven’t been released.

    In November, three people drowned while trying to save their dog at a California beach.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    “In November, three people drowned while trying to save their dog”

    Were these three co-owners of the same dog? Or what?

  • Maggs Naidu

    @ Olds – a dog in India is a dog. There is no such thing as an Indian dog.

    But there are WHITE dogs.

    P.s. I don’t have a cat – cats aren’t tasty.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Hey Dworky – well spotted.

    That’s one sneaky GENOCIDAL dog.

    Thanks to DMwamgi his game is up.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘As for Santorum, I strongly suspect that he is a prime hypocrite. If his daughter was raped, his anti-abortion absolutism would evaporate, I think.’

    That is just conjecture. It’s always easy to claim that ppl you politically disagree with are unprincipled but I know if my sister were raped, I’d be more worried about killing the rapist than the child in the womb. Why punish the child for the sins of the father? Isn’t that a principle whites keep invoking???

    ‘I do not think that you can believe that societally-shared “ends” – if that is how you wish to define culture – are static. And you cannot deny that new technologies, whether endogenous or “imposed,” contribute significantly to change. (I would not, of course, contend that such is the only source of change.)’

    You are misunderstanding the entire dynamic of technology and cultural change/revision. As technologies create new *possibilities* human beings are faced with the dilemma about whether the ends *capable* of being sought are licit. They make this determine by bringing their cultural traditions to bear on the question. Hence, my point about cloning or eugenics is adjudicated differently by transhumanist secularist, Muslims, Christians, etc. The same holds for cars in the Amish case, contraceptives for Catholics, or firearms for Africans. Firearms opened the possibility for disrupting previous cultural paradigms but it was human beings who decided those revisions were acceptable/desirable, and they made that adjudication from a certain perspective because they had to– there is no mythical a-perspectival epistemic vacuum.

    I agree that the constant creation of new *possibilities* means cultures are in states of flux as inevitably some will be chosen to be adopted and this may result in a re-evaluation of cultural values. But it’s still human beings that ultimately decide.

    The decision to adopt the ends are of course not made collectively, which is an important point. But each user stands within a tradition of thought which will circumscribe the internal debate he has about whether or not the ends are morally permissible. For example, were Americans of the Henry Ford years imbued in a non-racialist culture, with hundreds or thousands of years of non-racialism as a deeply held value, far fewer of them would have been able to personally justify using the technology for a racist ends i.e. white flight and the cultural impact would have been different. Technological innovation itself is the result of a cultural orientation. If you have a one-with-nature philosophy like the Yupno you are going to think differently about adopting new technologies and for what means than one of the Baconian worldview.

    If my thesis is wrong– that technology only opens possibilities and human beings must adjudicate the rightness of wrongness of seeking those ends– how do you explain why cloning, nuclear war, eugenics, etc. have not been widely adopted despite our capability to do them? Why do some ppl use technologies for certain purposes that others don’t? Why do some choose not to adopt particular technologies altogether?

    ‘Often, though, this requires enormous efforts on the part of the political powers that be.’

    Japan is not an authoritarian state. And no one can confuse it for a Western one.

    ‘You ascribe to me modernisation theory. Once again, a straw man. But we can discuss that separately.’

    Dismissing everything as a straw man seems a useful artifice of debate. But modernisation theory argued along the exact same lines as you. I.e. With technological progressivity, everyone the world over adopts and there is a homogenizing effect.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Hey DM – what kind of man would kill the father of his niece/nephew?

  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu
    January 3, 2013 at 15:45 pm

    So it is the same as Brazil nuts simply being “nuts” in Brazil.

    You know, I’ve often felt that being a CLEVER TEAGIRL can be a real bitch.

    BTW I’m sure your cats would find you tasty, they do not discriminate against any human meat and are very egalitarian in my book.

  • Maggs Naidu

    So DM – if you have one piece of KFC left, would tou give it to your dog or your sister’s rapist?

  • Olds

    “Why punish the child for the sins of the father? Isn’t that a principle whites keep invoking???”

    Some of us think it is kinder to abort unwanted offspring than to throw them away on the street or have them ruin a young woman’s life.

  • Dmwangi

    Olds:

    You are too unlearned to bother with so this will be my final exchange with you:

    ‘Some of us think it is kinder to abort unwanted offspring than to throw them away on the street or have them ruin a young woman’s life.’

    That is an interesting way to define compassion. Viz. *I* get to decide for the *you*, the unborn child, what is in *your* best interests. Wouldn’t it be compassionate of *me,* then, to murder *you* and put you out of your misery, which is manifestly obvious to *me*?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    “… contraceptives for Catholics”

    Dmwangi, will get back to you on the rest later, but meantime I thought I would point to the story below:

    “Although Catholic Church leaders have transformed contraception into a culture war issue over the past few months, their position does not have the backing of the majority of Catholic adherents, especially when compared to the American public as a whole. The poll demonstrates that Catholic support for birth control is a mere 8 points below the 90 percent of non-Catholic Americans who have no moral objections to birth control.”

    http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/05/23/489006/82-percent-of-catholics-birth-control/

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    January 3, 2013 at 17:00 pm

    “You are too unlearned to bother with”

    So that is why the needs of the great majority of uneducated poor black people are being ignored by cleverblacks? You simply can’t be bothered with them?

    As for
    “That is an interesting way to define compassion. Viz. *I* get to decide for the *you*, the unborn child, what is in *your* best interests. Wouldn’t it be compassionate of *me,* then, to murder *you* and put you out of your misery, which is manifestly obvious to *me*?”

    Are you then in sympathy with anti-abortionists even when they ignore street children? How very compassionate, you would rather watch a child endure a life of hell on the street, a life of causing others suffering? You choose to make a child when you have sex should that option also not be seen as your right? Notice I did not need all the glitter to make my point but then, what do I know, I’m just an unlearned teagirl with no rights, obviously.

  • Dmwangi

    @MO:

    If Santorum is so unprincipled why didn’t he do the ‘compassionate’ thing and murder this child? http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/75120.html

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Are you then in sympathy with anti-abortionists even when they ignore street children? How very compassionate, you would rather watch a child endure a life of hell on the street, a life of causing others suffering? You choose to make a child when you have sex should that option also not be seen as your right? ‘

    No. I am not in sympathy with anyone who ignores street children or tries to murder *potential* street children (or potential astro-physicists for all you know) in utero.

    And a right to choose when to have sex and with whom in no way implies a right to murder. That is just a simple fact of logic, no matter how allergic you are to it.

    You don’t get to decide for someone else that they’d be better off dead. Trust me, you should be very glad about that.

  • Olds

    Dwmangi you really do not understand logic, please do not try to use it, it seems to give you gas

    Further, if American culture is what you base your whitish notions on, I rest my case and cede the point you are trying to make, but then it seems to be the black youth that are desperately trying to emulate American culture and therefor they must be your biggest threat as an African Figure of Authority. Then take it up with them, better still, move there, I dare say you will fit in nicely. Try California, they seem to be able to absorb just about anyone.

  • Olds

    It is warm fuzzy thinkers like the anti-abortionists and anti-contraceptionists that has caused the current worldwide AIDS problem which is robbing us of many scientists and just ordinary healthy, cared for children of all kinds and teagirls with futures.

  • Dmwangi

    Right Olds. Because prior to widespread acceptance abortion and the invention of contraception the AIDS pandemic was flourishing. And most of all in all the pro-life countries– from Ireland and Poland to Chile, El Salvador, Malta and the Philippines– where there is a clear connection between prescribing abortion and AIDS!

    LOL!

  • Dmwangi

    *proscribing*

  • Olds

    Oh dear. I knew I should have mentioned the other really important variable in the equation, that of treating an epidemic such as AIDS which does not include:
    - sleeping with a virgin to cure it
    - showering
    - eating lots of beetroot and garlic
    - denying it exists and hoping it would go away
    And does include:
    - treating those who have it with anti-retrovirals
    - telling them not to get their body fluids on others
    - charging them with some heinous crime or other if they do it deliberately
    - telling them they will die, no shit, but we’ll try to mAke the end as humane as possible

    And so on and so forth. Yoiu probably won’t see what I’m getting at, it’s a science thingy.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘And so on and so forth. Yoiu probably won’t see what I’m getting at, it’s a science thingy.’

    I probably won’t because nothing you mentioned has anything to do with abortion, the proscription of which, you attributed to the AIDS crisis. I am pro-life and i agree with all of this:

    ‘Oh dear. I knew I should have mentioned the other really important variable in the equation, that of treating an epidemic such as AIDS which does not include:
    - sleeping with a virgin to cure it
    - showering
    - eating lots of beetroot and garlic
    - denying it exists and hoping it would go away
    And does include:
    - treating those who have it with anti-retrovirals
    - telling them not to get their body fluids on others
    - charging them with some heinous crime or other if they do it deliberately’

  • Dmwangi

    *abortion, the proscription of which, you contend is a cause of the AIDS crisis.’*

  • Dmwangi

    So what’s your claim, Olds?

    That Poland, Ireland and Malta would have higher AIDS prevalence than SA since they proscribe abortion and SA doesn’t if it were not for their better *treatment* of the epidemic?

    If so, that is a fantastical claim. How would you explain the USA then where there is widespread abortion and all the treatment approaches you mentioned but has a higher prevalency than Philippines or Malta? Even within Africa there is nothing to show that countries without abortion and similar treatments, or lack thereof, as their abortion-permitting counterparts, have higher HIV rates: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

  • Dmwangi

    Kenya, which outlaws abortion, has far fewer ARV’s available, spends much less on HIV education, and where talking about it even more taboo than SA, has 1/3 the prevalency of SA.

    If abortion is a causal factor, explain.

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 3, 2013 at 20:33 pm

    “Kenya, which outlaws abortion, has far fewer ARV’s available, spends much less on HIV education, and where talking about it even more taboo than SA, has 1/3 the prevalency of SA.”

    Dmwangi – how many mines are there in Kenya in comparison to South Africa?

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    I don’t know. But if you’re suggesting that migrant labour or apartheid history or whatever is a causal actor in HIV prevalency, that is quite different than saying abortion is.

  • Dmwangi

    OB:

    ‘Dmwangi
    January 3, 2013 at 0:51 am

    I guess it would be useful to know the difference between “critique” and/or stereotyping or vilifying. Don’t you think.’

    How about attacking ideas as opposed to ppl, as a useful starting point. I also think we are desperately in need of ppl who are fluent in both the European and African traditions, and therefore think it would be fruitful to require students to study, at minimum, two years of rigorous subjects in both European and African history and philosophy.

  • Beetle

    Prevalence of HIV has fuckall to do with abortion or anti-abortion morality.

    It has to do with multile sexual contacts without protective condom use.

    HIV originated in Central Africa as a zoonotic disease acquired through the practice of eating primates, and killing primates for cultural ritual. While Chimpanzees are asymptomatic carriers, the species jump has been devastating for humans.
    HIV in Africa was initially spread by truckdrivers and HIV incidence was highest along major road routes. First documented “European” case was a Swedish family [He was a sailor on an Africa route] in aprox 1956. So traveling men/ and drug routes [needle use] are prime points of spread to the rest of the globe.

    I rather think that prevalence statistics have t do with the efficiency and sophistication of sample collection and analysis [RSA samples pregnant women at antenatal clinics].

    Re abortion – its a womans body and a womans choice. I have an idea that morality has a degree of gender nuance.

  • Blue Ozone

    TB/AIDS have recently been conflated into one disease [Duesberg et al]. As far back as 1950 South Africa has already recorded 60% TB infection infection mostly related to the mining sector.

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/73014491/Update-56—Tuberculosis-in-South-Africa

    So please be careful when you postulate SA HIV/AIDS figures to correlate with relative sexual promiscuity.

  • Blue Ozone

    November action announced: time to tackle TB in Southern Africa’s mines

    http://blog.results.org.uk/tag/tb-mining/

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 3, 2013 at 22:08 pm

    Exactly. And you know that I agree with much of what you say.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Prevalence of HIV has fuckall to do with abortion or anti-abortion morality.’

    Precisely as I said to Olds.

    ‘Re abortion – its a womans body and a womans choice. I have an idea that morality has a degree of gender nuance.’

    Bullshit. It’s a baby’s body. You don’t get to choose to murder someone else’s body in the name of your own. My wife is a medical doctor by training and is more pro-life than I am. Gender has nothing to do with it.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘You don’t get to choose to murder someone else’s body in the name of your own.’

    Unless, of course, it’s self-defence.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi [to Olds]

    “You are too unlearned to bother with”

    I shudder to think that I may be the next recipient of such a devastating dismissal.

    But give us a break, Dmwangi. None of us could have dreamed of getting into the super-elite institutions that no doubt begged you to join their faculty. The best we can do is hope to pick up a few scraps of wisdom from under your table. Do not deny us even that, I implore you!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Hey Dmwangi,

    “You don’t get to choose to murder someone else’s body in the name of your own.”

    Eish!

    You are one big liar.

    See your own admission above that you would murder someone who raped your sister even – just for vengeance.

  • Olds

    Oh this is priceless. Now that I have shown how Dwmangi will take one or two words out of a sentence and use it to “proof” his own point let’s bring him back to the original path.

    Dwmangi
    What this unlearned one originally said was:
    “t is warm fuzzy thinkers like the anti-abortionists and anti-contraceptionists that has caused the current worldwide AIDS problem”

    Now if you reread the sentence you might find the word “like”, I.e. I did not claim that either anti-abortotionists or anti-contraceptionist caused AIDS, simply that people like that and anti-retroviralists belong to the same subset of humanity called “fuzzy thinkers”.

    You remind me of a puppy I had that used to chase the red dot from a laser pointer wherever I pointed it and never tired of the game. Even when he “caught” the dot and should have realised there is nothing there, he would try again and again.

    Such a waste of energy. Did you know that entropy is a neverending process? The more energy you waste, the more is lost forever to do real stuff with, like actually uplifting the unlearned ones. How much did you donate to the people in Khayelitsha so that they may rebuild their homes even if they do not have hope of ever being able to go to university to become learned. .

  • Olds

    @MDF
    Don’t worry, it is rather cool being dismissed by Dwmangi. It illustrates my point that what is wrong with Africa has little to do with Westerners and a lot with the arrogance and greed of some Africans. Take Mbeki jnr for instance, no sooner had he got his fancy British learning when he would turn up his nose at the unlearned, quite forgetting that they voted him into power. Zuma realise this and remains the champion of the unlearned. Viva Zuma!

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Olds
    January 4, 2013 at 7:13 am

    Hey Olds,

    So the puppy wasted energy chasing the red dot, eh?

    And you spent much time with the laser enjoying the puppy wasting its energy.

    Makes perfect sense – but I do wonder what the puppy would have been thinking.

    p.s. it seems that somewhere in your conversation with DM that there’s the view that there’s a connection/link/correlation between abortion policies and AIDS. If you think that AIDS is in anyway related to how society views abortion, you must be a #CleverWhite (n.b. #CleverWhite is the same as WHITE – but clever is redundant as all WHITES are clever, use lotion, have straight hair, care for their dogs more than they care for prostitutes, drug pedlars, hijackers, murderers, pedophiles, wife-abusers, rapists, drunken drivers, 419 scamsters, rhino poachers …)

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 4, 2013 at 9:49 am

    “but clever is redundant as all WHITES are clever, use lotion, have straight hair, care for their dogs”

    BS. You have pointed out many times how dumb I am. One of my best racist WHITE friends have beautiful dreadlocks and is a sangoma who has sacrificed many pet chickens to our ancestors. I don’t wear lotion cause that is for metrosexuals like Dmwangi/Brett/PdV and those irritating White liberals who are always complain about all these “whiteness” problems as they are typing all of their kak on the Internet and the “social media”.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    January 4, 2013 at 10:06 am

    Hey Ozone Guy,

    “BS. You have pointed out many times how dumb I am.”

    Note Michael Osborne (January 3, 2013 at 9:02 am) – “quintessentially the exception that proves the rule”

  • Blue Ozone

    @mags

    I don’t understand that either. All I know that there is nothing more beautiful than a very black and proud African women. They don’t run around bitching about the “whiteness” and hair straightness though, because they have a lot of love for themselves and what they are.

    http://locdlife.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/nerrisa-irvingrastafartings.jpg

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    January 4, 2013 at 10:42 am

    Hey Blue, White-Guy,

    “All I know that there is nothing more beautiful than a very black and proud African women. They don’t run around bitching about the “whiteness” and hair straightness though, because they have a lot of love for themselves and what they are.”

    You just proved that even the exception which proves the rule (that all WHITE/WHITISH WHITISTS are #CleverWhites) is a #CleverWhite.

    p.s. Can we please make DM an honorary White – he did the White-impressing graduate school thingy (Dworky will explain), he uses hair-straightener on his twisted mind, his wife is a doctor (fancy that, eh), he has a gardener, he drives his M1 on the M3, he owns most of the business on the continent. Plus he is very stupid – so that alone should qualify him.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, how does your post relate even slightly to the topic at hand which is about the ANC illiterates’ unrivalled ability to elect leaders South Africa is going to be shamed by?

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    January 4, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    Hey G,

    “Maggs, how does your post relate even slightly to the topic at hand which is about the ANC illiterates’ unrivalled ability to elect leaders South Africa is going to be shamed by?”

    Eish – you are so slow.

    The reason everything is in a mess is because of WHITE people.

    The ANC discarded Motlanthe, Sexwale, Paul Mashatile, Fikile Mbalula and others is cos they use hair-straighteners, lotion and look after their dogs.

    We are onto those COCONUTS.

    I hope you understand now.

  • Olds

    Maggs

    “And you spent much time with the laser enjoying the puppy wasting its energy.”

    Not really, I set the laser on random and went to sleep and checked on the results this morning.

    If you reread what I wrote you will note no such correlation. There just happen to be a large overlap between the secors of the population who meddle in other’s affairs (like nationalists), pro lifers, anti-antiretroviralists, people who believe in the essential goodness of man and Thoureauxans by any other name who love to base decisions on emotion rather than logic. It usually gets messy.

  • Brett Nortje

    Anyway, we’re glad you found something to amuse yourself.

  • Brett Nortje

    Eish, Maggs, Mashatile was not exactly a credit to his country during his spell in Gauteng.

    Anyway, bud, do you not think someone like Mathews Phosa would be doing a great deal for the cause of non-racialism if he walked over to the Doghating Alliance?

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Olds
    January 4, 2013 at 13:05 pm

    Olds,

    “I set the laser on random and went to sleep and checked on the results this morning.”

    Since you know how to set stuff on random, please apply reverse skills to de-random Ozone Guy and Dmwangi’s thoughts – both are more muddled than drunk ducks in a mud pool.

    p.s. I see you also have the much admired skill of quoting people who quote people – did you attend Dmwangi’s weekend seminar at Milpark Holiday Inn?

    p.p.s. everyone should meddle in other people’s affairs otherwise our President will shout stuff about UBUNTU again – and that will not be nice.

  • Gwebecimele

    Close these schools and move the kids to western cape and those responsible must burn in hell.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/No-matric-passes-at-seven-schools-20130104

  • Gwebecimele
  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 4, 2013 at 13:33 pm

    I have contemplated the reset of the Hon. Dwmangi’s mind but am not that jacked up on Fuzzy logic and am worried that it will affect my own. The field we are talking about here is huuuuuge, that is all I know and, no, they don’t allow us teagirls through the front doors of VIP hotels, we are let in through the back entrance and have to stay in the kitchen in case we ask really unlearned questions and embarrass VIB’s.

    Why do Indians breed WHITE dogs? Is it so you can train them not to be messy?

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 4, 2013 at 13:33 pm

    Sorry. I’m heading into the weekend and its is puza-puza time. This is all I want to say on this matter.

    http://locdlife.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/nerrisa-irvingrastafartings.jpg

    Now you go argue with that.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Olds
    January 4, 2013 at 13:45 pm

    Olds,

    “Why do Indians breed WHITE dogs?”

    I deny your false accusation that Indians breed WHITE dogs – WHITE people breed all by themselves!

    Sometimes we help.

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    January 4, 2013 at 13:22 pm

    G,

    It would depend on what the motive is for switching political ideology.

    The DA hasn’t yet earned its stripes.

    Getting more support by default cannot be good for anyone.

    Anyway the notion that the DA is “non-racial” is hectically flawed.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    Maggs is right. The DA can never represent the aspirations of Our People. Also, the DA is known to be very corrupt, and most South Africans would never vote for a corrupt party. As OzoneBoy has pointed out, we would rather be ruled by Augusto Pinochet than a racist monkey-dancer!

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 4, 2013 at 14:30 pm

    LOL Dworky,

    Like Verwoerd wanted large cesspools of cheap labour to support WHITE excesses, the DA needs large cesspools of “political refugees” to become significant.

  • Brett Nortje

    Oh…..Is Phosa an ideologue?

    I thought the clowns who went on and on about things like ‘NDR’ were the ideologues?

  • Brett Nortje

    Oops! That does it, Maggs.

    I’m going to have to post Prof Giliomee’s superbly researched articles again. Olds is not going to like this….

  • Olds

    Brett

    You are crowing. Aren’t you meant to bark?

    Please consider my poor thumb before you make this post any longer.

    Please consider the environment before having any offspring.

  • Dmwangi

    @Olds:

    ‘It is warm fuzzy thinkers like the anti-abortionists and anti-contraceptionists that has caused the current worldwide AIDS problem….’

    ‘Now if you reread the sentence you might find the word “like”, I.e. I did not claim that either anti-abortotionists or anti-contraceptionist caused AIDS, simply that people like that and anti-retroviralists belong to the same subset of humanity called “fuzzy thinkers”.’

    LOL! Way to try to save face. “Fuzzy thinkers cause AIDS.” What a profound incite! I’m sure migrant truckers who buy prostiturs will be miffed you called them ‘fuzzy thinkers.’
    Unfortunately, it’s a meaningless statement. Kind of like: “Incorrigibles *like* Olds who can’t reason are the cause of all evil in the world.” How exactly would we empirically verify such a bold assertion? Not very ‘scientific’ of you to be making such untestable claims. But I guess, by your lights, we Africans have always been ‘fuzzy thinkers.’

    No Place for Abortion in African Traditional Life – Turyomumazima

    I wish to approach these reflections from the point of view of what I may call pre-Christianity African religious beliefs and practices on the subject of abortion. My stand is that there is no place for abortion in pre-Christianity African tradition. Here is why:

    1- African Society’s Love for Children
    It is popularly known, and almost taken for granted, that in traditional Africa, even before the coming of Christianity, children were highly valued in society. This does not mean that there were no situations of abuse; there were cases where children were mistreated and neglected. The worst is in reference to the birth of twins. “The birth of twins and triplets is an event out of the ordinary. Therefore, in many African societies twins and triplets are treated with fear or special care. Formerly, some societies used to kill such children; others killed both the mother and the children. This, however, was not the universal practice, for other societies greeted the birth of twins with great joy and satisfaction, as a sign of rich fertility.” (MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p. 117; see MAGESA, L., African Religion: the Moral Traditions of Abundant Life, pp. 146-148).). All in all, the fact is that children were, and are still, seen as precious.

    2- Marriage and Procreation
    We must note that marriage and procreation in African communities are a unity: without procreation marriage is incomplete. ((MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p. 133). Pregnancy is the first indication that a new member is on the way. The expectant mother becomes, therefore, a special person and receives special treatment from her neighbors and relatives. This special treatment starts before and continues after child-birth. In some African societies, marriage is not fully consummated until the wife has given birth. For this reason, there is general abhorrence of barrenness in most African societies. “Unhappy is the woman who fails to get children for, whatever other qualities she might possess, her failure to bear children is worse than committing genocide: she has become the dead end of human life, not only for the genealogical line but also for herself”(MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p. 110)

    3- Children as Survival of Race and Assurance of Personal Immortality.
    As we indicated above, when a woman that has not given birth to a child dies, in the eyes of African society there will be nobody of her own immediate blood to ‘remember’ her, to keep her in the state of personal immortality: she will simply be ‘forgotten’. (MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p. 110). Therefore, a child not only continues the physical line of life, in some societies thought to be a re-incarnation of the departed, but becomes the intensely religious focus of keeping the parents in their state of personal immortality. (MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p. 120) A person who, therefore, has no descendants in effect quenches the fire of life, and becomes forever dead since his line of physical continuation is blocked if he does not get married and bear children. This is a sacred understanding and obligation which must neither be abused nor despised. (MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p. 133).

    4- Polygamy as Search for Children
    Getting married to two or more wives is a custom found all over Africa, though in some societies it is less common than in others. The custom fits well into the social structure of traditional life, and into the thinking of the people, serving many useful purposes, one of which is the search for children. If the philosophical or theological attitude towards marriage and procreation is that these are an aid towards the partial recapture or attainment of the lost immortality (that is after the withdrawal of God to the heavens – a kind of ‘Fall’ of man), the more wives a man has the more children he is likely to have, and the more children the stronger the power of ‘immortality’ in the family. He who has many descendants has the strongest possible manifestation of ‘immortality’, he is ‘reborn’ in the multitude of his descendants, and there are many who ‘remember’ him after he has died physically and entered his ‘personal immortality’. Such a man has the attitude that ‘the more we are, the bigger I am’. Children are the glory of marriage, and the more there are of them the greater the glory. (MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p. 142, cfr. p. 98)

    5- Communal Responsibility over Children’s Well-being.
    The birth of a child is, moreover, the concern not only of the parents but of many relatives, including the living and the departed. For it is the community which must protect the child, feed it, bring it up, educate it, and in many other ways incorporate it into the wider community. The child cannot be exclusively ‘my child’ but only ‘our child’. “Children are the buds of society, and every birth is the arrival of ‘spring’ when life shoots out and the community thrives,” writes Professor John S. Mbiti (MBITI, J. S., African Religions and Philosophy, p.110; see also MAGESA, L., African Religion: the Moral Traditions of Abundant Life, p. 83). In this kind of setup, there are no children left abandoned. Even those children born out of wedlock, have a place in society; many a family are willing to welcome such children and look after them.

    6- Taboos and Rituals for the Preservation of the Children’s Life
    In the background of wanting to have as many children as possible, perhaps, lies the desire to save some, especially in the face of rampant infant mortality. Because of many sicknesses, and due to lack of proper medical facilities, a lot of families lost children in their earliest years of infancy. By producing many children, therefore, a family would save at least three or four, out of a family of ten. And in order to preserve the life of a baby, many taboos and rituals surround the whole period from conception to the birth of the new baby. For instance, according to the African mentality, “If conception is an occasion of joy, a good, uncomplicated birth of a healthy child is much more so as it validates the relationships [existing between the parents, the nearest of kin, the ancestors and God Himself]. It is a sign of tranquility in the universe, the pleasure of the ancestors, the good moral standing of the parents, and a sigh of the defeat of bad people or malevolent spirits by the protection of the ancestors” (MAGESA, L., African Religion: the Moral Traditions of Abundant Life, p. 84). For that matter, the parents must observe strict discipline, during the period when the mother is expecting; and they must be in good moral standing if the birth is to take place smoothly…Both parents must be faithful to each other during the entire pregnancy. “Unfaithfulness of one or the other spouse, or an incestuous relationship, is sure to result in a difficult delivery, stillbirth, birth of an abnormal child, or death of the child before it has been “taken out” and formally named” (MAGESA, L., African Religion: the Moral Traditions of Abundant Life, p. 85). With reference to the people of western Kenya, Gunter Wagner explains that “A miscarriage which occurs suddenly and without causing much pain to the woman is regarded as the consequence of an act of adultery committed by the wife during her pregnancy… Suspicions of adultery are also raised if parturition occurs too soon (after seven or eight months) or if the child is stillborn” ( WAGNER, G., The Bantu of Western Kenya: With Special Reference to the Vugusu and Logoli. Vol. I, London, Oxford University Press, 1949, p. 297. If there were such taboos, plus elaborate ritual, and if miscarriage was not tolerated, then abortion had no place.

    7- The Mystique of Life, and Harmony in African Religion
    The foundation and purpose of the ethical perspective of Africa Religion is life, life in its fullness. Everything is perceived with reference to this. It is no wonder, then, Africans quickly draw ethical conclusions about thoughts, words, and actions of human beings, or even of “natural” cosmological events, by asking questions such as: Does the particular happening promote life? If so, it is good, just, ethical, desirable, divine. Or does it diminish life in any way? Then it is wrong, bad, unethical, unjust, detestable. This most basic understanding of morality in African Religion or tradition is incorporated systematically in people’s way of life. It is expressed in their traditions, ceremonies, and rituals. It constitutes what Africans perceive as the mystique of life. (MAGESA, L., African Religion: the Moral Traditions of Abundant Life, p. 77).

    Similarly, for Africans harmony, as the principle for moral order does not mean that people and other members of creation lose their freedom. Harmony is the agent of freedom and is meant to enhance it. But what does “freedom” mean? Does it imply license or liberty to do whatever one wants? Such is not the case. In African Religion or tradition, freedom is what enables a person to be fully who he or she is. This applies equally to all beings: harmony (or freedom) enables a tree to be fully a tree, a stone fully a stone, and a person fully human. (MAGESA, L., African Religion: the Moral Traditions of Abundant Life, p. 74).

    Conclusion
    With the above background, it is only natural to see why abortion has no place in African Religion and traditional society. Admittedly, “Abortion is an emotive issue — cultural and religious values have always made it taboo – until five years ago it was a criminal offence in this country. And although the law may have changed, attitudes haven’t,” write Ruda Landman and Kate Barry in their report, “DIY Abortion Clinics,” June 23, 2002. It is not surprising also that the nurses and the majority of the medical staff, “want nothing to do with [Termination of Pregnancy (TOP) or abortion], even if they’re on duty in the ward.” The biggest survey ever done amongst doctors showed that more than 80% of South African doctors are against abortion on demand. The government was fully aware of this attitude when they forced the members of the African National Congress (ANC) to vote against their consciences in support of “Termination of Pregnancy”. They should therefore not be surprised when only 5 of the 27 hospitals in Mpumalanga have staff who are willing to take part in abortions.

    At any rate, keeping in mind the Declaration of Human Rights, and the rich religious-cultural background, the medical staff in any hospital, clinic, health center or dispensary, must not be coerced against their conscience to take part in abortion or contraception. Moreover, considering all the suffering that many people endured during the dark days of apartheid, the South African Government, and the people of South Africa ought to be the first ones to oppose all the attitudes and practices that are anti-life. Please, please, Africa has suffered enough, let her children live!

  • Brett Nortje

    Thank you for the examples of convoluted thinking and untestable assertions, Mwangi…

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    January 4, 2013 at 15:55 pm

    If your conclusion makes you feel truly happy then I am more than pleased. Crowing is abit much though for a person of your magnitude and learning.

    I knew set theory would be a bit of a bother but will try once more, truckers, presuming they are male, will be a subset of the set “male” and it is a well know fact that all male thinking goes fuzzy when confronted with the prospects of sex. They are not to blame for the lack of antiretrovirals though, justthe spread of the virus.

    BTW I thought you were never going to talk to me again? Must have made another turn. Like you quite forgot to tell me how much Ubuntu you donated to the people in Khayelitsha. Quite slipped your mind?

  • Olds

    Don’t worry Brett, Dwmangi has already done it…

    Like I said: the field is huuuuuge and he obviously can’t find a publisher that will appreciate the magnitude.

  • Olds

    Do we have to wait for PdV to get back from the beach before we get a new topic? I’m not kidding about the thumb, it has friction burns, especially after the latest edition of profound rumination.

  • Dmwangi

    Olds:

    Brilliant work! Perhaps you can publish your deep insight that “fuzzy thinking” causes AIDS in the latest edition of ‘Nature.’

    We are so blessed to have ‘scientists’ who are able to discern such profound knowledge through rigorous adherence to the scientific method!

    Thanking you for suffering us fools long enough to ‘scientifically’ explicate the epidemiology of AIDS.

  • Beetle

    Dwangi.
    I notice that when bad things happen its the woman’s fault.
    If a woman is barren, she is confined to ancestral limbo, as it could never be due to male infertility?
    Black neonatal mortality had an asociation with the cultural practice of applying cow dung to the severed umbilical wound resulting in tetanus among other infections. Many black woman also have android pelvises causing birthing difficulties, where delivery by Caesarian section is indicated. Children die because of neglect to vaccinate. This is fact not voodoo. Ask Dr Dwangi.

    Many healthcare givers refuse to do abortions because with a 49% HIV prevalence in KZN no-one wants to be exposed to infectious body fluids.
    Many woman are serial abortionists. For some abortion is just another form of contraception albeit retrospective and it becomes a waste of a medical profesionals time.

    Prove to me that a foetus, or any human has a soul?

    Life began 4 billion years ago as an RNA-world in primordial seas. Genotyping of earth’s species reveals our relationship to other species and plants. -Humans are interestingly 76 % genetically related to the California sea urchin. Sea urchins are genetically closer to humans than earth worms, confirming our origins as marine entities.
    Science does not support theism or the reward of an afterlife

    A foetus has at best ‘potential’…. and some of that potential is the possibility of child support and a drain on my taxpayers money! I allow that your kids can keep you happy and in tune with your immortality, just so long as you pay for their upkeep, education, and keep them out of jail.

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    My claim: Abortion has historically been abhorred in African culture.

    I fail to see why this could not be corroborated or refuted by examining the historical evidence.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Prove to me that a foetus, or any human has a soul?’

    Irrelevant. Mrs. Dmwangi tells me that all embryology textbooks agree that a foetus, unlike your examples, is a living member of the species Homo sapiens. The question, then, is do all living members of the species Homo sapiens have a right to life? If not, the burden of proof is on you to elucidate the principle by which we delineate which living members of the species do and which do not.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Beetle

    January 4, 2013 at 18:29 pm

    Hey Beetle,

    What’s a “soul”?

  • Dmwangi

    Olds:

    I thought you self-professed Upper-Right Tailers thought science was authoritative? So let’s bracket for a moment if ferns and fauna ought have rights, and study a bit of embryology:

    See, for example, William J. Larsen, Human Embryology, 3rd ed. (2001); Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th ed. (2003); and Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Mueller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd ed. (2000).

    “Although life is a continuous process, fertilization … is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.” (Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Muller, Human Embryology & Teratology, 3rd ed., New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001, p. 8)

    “Zygote. This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm during fertilization. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” … “[The zygote] marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” (Keith L. Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th ed., Philadelphia: Saunders, 2003, pp. 2,16)

    “The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life.” (J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics, Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974, p. 17)

    “It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material … that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual.” (Bradley M. Patten, Human Embryology, 3rd ed., New York: McGraw Hill, 1968, p. 43)

    “When fertilization is complete, a unique genetic human entity exists.” (C. Christopher Hook, MD, Mayo Clinic, as quoted by Richard Ostling in an AP news story, 9/24/99)

    TESTIMONY BEFORE A US SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE (SUBCOMMITTEE ON SEPARATION OF POWERS TO SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE S-158, REPORT, 97TH CONGRESS, 1ST SESSION, 1981)
    “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.” (Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School)

    “I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception.” (Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania)

    “After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion…it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.” (Dr. Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes)

    “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.” (Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic)

    “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception.” (Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School)

    THE OFFICIAL SENATE REPORT
    “Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.” (Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981)

  • Maggs Naidu

    Hayibo!

    Dm is getting his wife to help him out.

    Crybaby.

    :P

  • Beetle

    That the products of conception are living mitotic cells progressing to the possibility of live birth is not to be disputed.

    What I dispute is the posibility of a soul.

    It is human nature as the CURRENT dominant species [micro-organisms are far more numerous] to elevate ourselves above our fellow members on the world-species phylogenic tree.
    We are sufficiently advanced to have egos that aspire to god-like status, hence a belief in a soul and an afterlife. The Christian bible grants Homo sapiens dominion over the earth and its creatures. This is ego-food fed at Sunday school.

    It should be noted that morality and ethics are constraints put in place in hindsight. Human ego and science will rush ahead where angels fear to tread.
    An example would be experimentation on human embrios, or the selection of favourable genes [designer babies] . How about 65 year old women that have babies? Science advances and the ethicists come in later with the mops and bandaids. Much of our morality is therefore learned.

    Mrs Dr Dwangi will know of all the latest buzzwords in the neurobiology journals.
    Massive paraphrasing :Our physical development and our personalities [reflecting our emotional substance and hence our souls] are detemined by the compliment of genes received from each parent. The expression of these genes will determine how we are wired, how, and if, the cascade of messaging systems produce a functional human being. Familiar personality [brain] disorders we all know are autism and schizophrenia. These are extremes of the “human soul”, and are examples that demonstrate personality ‘wiring’ – we are really just a bunch of chemicals and personalities can be pot-luck although autism, schizophrenia and depression show family heritability- confirming the parental gene inheritance.

    Quite simply a soul is the bio-wiring of chemicals [and their function] donated by rhe parent stock. I do not think it is a criminal offence to terminate a bunch of cells.
    I respect your right to be pro-life.
    Some of us think differently.
    Incidentally Christianity is my moral compass and inherent in my identity. I just don’t believe in any afterlife , a belief held by many religous secularists.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Dmwangi

    January 4, 2013 at 18:44 pm

    “The question, then, is do all living members of the species Homo sapiens have a right to life?”

    All except the sod who rapes your sister. In that case he must DIE.

    In the meanwhile it’s the woman’s right to her own body which should be absolute not some backward practices repackaged as culture – luckily for women in the holy Republic of South Africa, the world’s foremost Constitutional Democracy, reason prevails.

  • Beetle

    For all the Latin lovers-
    The Pope tweets @pontifex.
    This has, of course, generated discussion as to whether his Holiness should tweet in latin and how would twitter and tweet translate in the Pope’s vernacular.
    One suggestion was Pipianda [things chirped] for twitter and Pipulum for tweet.
    Seems that Titiatio and titiatum [bird noise] got the thumbs up.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, thanks for the quotes.

    But what do you say of this one?:

    “There is scientific evidence that all the ingredients of a sacred humanoid life are present whensoever a healthy spermatozoa swims in the same general vicinity as a receptive ovulatory manifestation. Hence it is that the Holy Father deems any interposition of sheathy cloak upon the turgid member to be an abomination worthy of consignment to the realm of eternal discontent.”

    Cardinal Henry Betrolucci, Vol. 17, Journal of Sacred Pontification, 223 (1997.)

  • Dmwangi

    Beetle:

    ‘That the products of conception are living mitotic cells progressing to the possibility of live birth is not to be disputed.’

    So if you agree with embryology– that foetuses are living members of the species Homo sapiens–then what principle are you elucidating by which we determine that certain of members of the species possess human rights and others do not. You conveniently avoided that question.

    ‘The question, then, is do all living members of the species Homo sapiens have a right to life? If not, the burden of proof is on you to elucidate the principle by which we delineate which living members of the species do and which do not.’

  • Dmwangi

    MDF:

    Quoting from the fictional Journal of Sacred Pontification?

    Not very ‘scientific’ for an Upper-Right Tailer. (Or even a clever rejoinder).

  • Maggs Naidu

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    January 4, 2013 at 23:49 pm

    Dworky,

    I got a quote for you.

    “Kill them all” His Highness, Holy Father of Africa Idi Amin Dada Esq.

    WDYSTT?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, I have subscribed to the Journal of Sacred Pontification (“JSP”) for more than a decade now, and read it religiously. If you are seriously interested in a learned discussion about contemporary Thomism, I will arrange a trial subscription. What is your postal address?

  • Alibama

    }} I want to use PAIA. Am I right that this is INTENDED to be a low level
    }} resource-efficient method of legal protection
    =
    } Hey Brain, your ego is showing.
    ===
    Well, the BBC was just telling how the Japanese crime rate of ca. 10% of US
    is associated with the very high conviction rate, and the ‘natives’ were
    repeatedly empasising PRIDE & DISGRACE. Yes: that’s what you call ego.
    —–
    } Just go down to your local traffic dept and sort out the vehicle ownership.
    ===
    Perhaps you live in CT and don’t know about the municipal billing crisis.
    Until control was given to the niggas, I never had errors with municipal billing
    for THREE DECADES. Then when I challenged their errors, their blanke lawer,
    thought I would ‘blink-first’; which escalated to them illegally [& unjustly]
    confiscating my rental property.

    Perhaps I’m mistaken about the Promotion of Access to Information Act and
    rules re. discovery. Does anyone here know/discuss legal theory?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Hey Alibama,

    “Until control was given to the niggas”.

    #Just wondering

  • Blue Ozone

    Dmwangi
    January 4, 2013 at 21:07 pm

    Watched a programme on the future of science and genetic engineering specifically on DSTV last night.

    It seems that the widening gap between the rich and the poor, combined with advances in GE, will eventually lead to rich people modifying and manipulating their gene pool and thus resulting in two separate human species the tiny rich master class of genetically enhanced and the poor “natural genetic” masses.

    I’m not sure what our New Atheists have to say about this, but it is very clear to me that most religions as well as socialist doctrine reject such a fascist future and that it is therefore necessary as globalisation/world capitalist order marches forth, to systematically destroy all opposing world views that could pose and obstacle to such “progress”.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje

    Huh! Shocked, are you, Maggs? Well, I don’t think I would have been paying 5 times my normal lights and water while Roodepoort City Council did nothing, do you?

    Here is another vignette of a town that suffered an ‘ANC name change’…

    http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-08-15-limpopo-public-healths-chaos-and-hopelessness

    http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/59c74d004e129351b09bb7f251b4e4e2/Four-babies-die-in-Limpopo-hospital–20130105

    Four babies die in Limpopo hospital
    Saturday 5 January 2013 17:17

    SABC

    Limpopo registered the highest number of births – with about 100 babies born in 2013 (REUTERS)

    Four babies have died in Limpopo’s George Masebe Hospital in Mokopane, allegedly, because there were no doctors to treat them. A concerned doctor at the hospital says some of the babies had not been seen by a doctor for four days.

    Dr. Mashilo Kgathi says there were only three doctors at the hospital when the children died of treatable diseases. “Because of the workload I’m told in the ward since the 1st of January – there is no doctor who came to do a ward round. So in Ward 2 babies died yesterday and two babies died in the casualty yesterday – so a total of four patients that we have lost so the situation is unacceptable. You find that two doctors run a 280 bed hospital,” says Kgathi.

    Kgathi adds that the hospital is operating with acting managers in key positions. He says the hospital also lacks important medication.

    Meanwhile, it was a busy day for the New Year’s stork as more than 300 babies were born across the country at the start of 2013. Limpopo registered the highest number of births – with about 100 babies born.

  • Brett Nortje

    “Do not be fooled by a belief that progressives, leftists hate guns. Oh, no, they do not. What they hate is guns in the hands of those who are not marching in lock step of their ideology. They hate guns in the hands of those who think for themselves and do not obey without question. They hate guns in those whom they have slated for a barrel to the back of the ear.”

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/#

  • Olds

    Dwmangi

    I did embriology so long ago that your post brought nostalgic thoughts. Now that you have discovered science let’s take your argument a little further after stripping off the unscientific nonsense about “rights”. It is a well known basic scientific fact that all life share the same genetic matter. That the combination and number can express itself in such vastly different ways is the real miracle. All expressions of life are therefore in competition for resources and mutate(evolve) so as to give its offspring the edge. Human tinkering with this genetic code is silly since we clever monkeys really do not understand enough yet to understand the ramifications of our tinkering. So back to your “rights”. This is an agreement between humans not to harm each other and has nothing to do with science and everything to do with humanity’s desperation to survive even when they are too weak to do so. If a lion escapes from the prison (zoo) where we put it and kills a human for lunch we hunt it down and kill it even though it was acting according to its nature and did nothing wrong according to you. The more of us there are, the less resources there are to share, exponentially, since each added human body also removes his weight in resources from the resource pool. The fact that starvation is on the increase globally seems to prove this. Organisms who’s sole purpose seem to be to feed on Homo saps and related species are also on the increase which alone should tell us that our numbers are out of balance. I agree with you that killing for fun is wrong, or having babies we do not want but accidents happen in aincreasingly dumbed down society. Speak to any woman who has had an abortion. It is not an option to contraception and never taken lightly, leaving its share of emotional scarring. I would not add to that burden with your superficial wrongs and rights.

  • Olds

    Oh, and apparently Zuma has the right to send 400 SANDF’s to CAR to keep the peace, risking their lives who once were babies too, even though he is unable to protect his own voters.

    Conclusion? Power = Rights. The rest of us teagirls simply survive as best we can the decisions made by the powerful on what is right today.

  • Gwebecimele

    As usual death of a WHITE cyclist is covered and responded better than the death of 7 Black nameless job seekers who died in KZN. Minister of Sports visited the WHITE family and the suspect is appearing in court this morning.

    SA will always show its true colours.

    For those responsible for the death of the 7 nameless unemployed Blacks and their bereaved families the message is clear.

  • Olds

    Alibama
    This is South Africa, not North America, we do not have “niggas” and no longer have “blankes”. Did you not notice the signs were removed? We also do not use the law to escape justice American style unless we are really rich and powerful. Phone Legal Aid and ask them what you can do. I have similiar experiences with my (DA-run) municipality. Turns out that the municipal workers are just workers and do not change with a regime change.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Gwebecimele

    January 7, 2013 at 8:23 am

    Gwebs

    “For those responsible for the death of the 7 nameless unemployed Blacks and their bereaved families the message is clear.”

    Andries Tatane did not get a Fund in his honour cos he was killed in the struggle for Human Rights. The Marikana miners – eish they had traditional weapons.

    Anyway why would poor people matter amyway?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebe

    “death of a WHITE cyclist is covered and responded better than the death of 7 Black nameless job seekers”

    Gwebe is right. I am sure the tragic road deaths of Ntini or Simenya would likewise be virtually ignored by the WHITIST media, while the deaths of any obscure WHITE in a traffic accident on the same road would be in banner headlines!

    Thanks.

  • Olds

    Gwebecimele
    January 7, 2013 at 8:23 am

    You are usually more reasonable than that. If the workers are nameless, then it is obvious that their identities and therefore the identities of their next of ki are unknown and until the police can discover this it is standard practice to say very little in the press, partially since it is inhumane to learn of the demise of a member of your family before the police have the chance to tell you how sorry they are and also that if foul play is involved irresponsible reporting makes the polices job that much more difficult and can sometimes guarantee the criminals freedom.

  • Brett Nortje

    What about the deaths of ten women in a taxi near Bronkhorstspruit?

    When are our not-so-fit parliamentarians going to impose a fit-and-proper standard on the taxi industry? And the Skills Act?

  • Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Olds
    January 7, 2013 at 7:41 am

    Eish Olds,

    “It is a well known basic scientific fact that all life share the same genetic matter.”

    Now you’ve ruined the friendship.

    That Dmwangi and Ozone Guy are even remotely, as “remotestly” as god could have conceived, is too ghastly to contemplate.

    So you studied embryology eh – you must be a #CleverBlack. Did you know that Dm invented economics?

    But baad news for the both of you who studied at graduate schools which impresses WHITE people – Professor Zuma is “clever past” all of you. Our esteemed PROFESSOR can make Black people into White people with lotion, hair straighteners and dog leashes.

    And he can bring about economic equality by making WHITE people six times poorer than they are now.

    WDYSTT???

  • Olds

    Maggs

    “Did you know that Dm invented economics?”. That is very wrong. Now I know why economics only work in theory and why economists seem to make all their money from alternately postulating hypothesese that frighten everyone else and apologising for being wrong afterwards.

    And yes, the same four molecules in differing amounts and combinations do spell slippery eels and righteous bunnies, even DMF.

    As for our pres I’ve always thought his field of expertise is magic, not science.

    I am not so much a #CleverBlack, rather an #AnnoyingTeagirl just ask the Dwmangi.

  • Gwebecimele

    @MDF

    You are right. Those who pay higher tax or won medals must be treated as superior citizens.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Olds
    January 7, 2013 at 10:37 am

    Olds,

    “I am not so much a #CleverBlack, rather an #AnnoyingTeagirl”

    Got news for you – His Excellency will tell you that #CleverBlack and #AnnoyingTeagirl are one and the same.

    p.s. Does “DMF” mean Darn Mother F…..? In that case you must be referring to Dworky!

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Olds

    I hope I am still reasonable when I request you to check your facts first before making unfair conclusions. The 7 deaths occured on 27 Dec in one local municipality then the question is how long should it take the officials to identify the dead (& next of kin) who submitted their details before the race??? Here we are talking about officials (not yet criminals) who made decisions about the hiring (administrative) process ?

    Please put a bit of effort into the debate.

  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 7, 2013 at 10:58 am

    “#CleverBlack and #AnnoyingTeagirl are one and the same.”. Only at first glance, #AnnoyingTeagirls ask a lot of wrong questions that serve to push up. #CleverBlacks blood pressure because theuy studied the wrong stuff that makes logical sennse and does not pay well at all, if it pays, if you can get a job in the field.

    DMF is a free broadcasting station that broadcast anything that jumps to whatever mind remains after the chemiclas and sometimes rhymes because it appears to have peotic licence so does not have to make sense at all.

  • Olds

    Gwebecimele
    January 7, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Then kindly supply the link that will tell me what you are referring to, as you point out, the news did not reach CT and I’m working so cannot do an extensive search on a phone that is already threatening to crash because of this topic. Without knowing the details, I cannot get upset alongside you.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – OMG, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 7, 2013 at 10:01 am

    “And he can bring about economic equality by making WHITE people six times poorer than they are now.”

    he he. That seems to be the general “plan” – Coronation Park then for another 2.4 mil whites to join the 800 000 that are already there. Brett and I have woken up to that unspoken thing long time ago.

    But what about you Indians then? Are you all moving back to Cato Manor?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Blue Boy

    Thanks for your concern but all is solved for “Indians”.

    When did you hear Indians complaining about their lot in Democratic RSA?

    Plus we deployed our secret weapons – even though one got terminally ill in the process!

    If you woyuld like to convert to Indian and spend the rest of your life (and beyond) in total bliss, I can arrange for a small fee.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu
    January 7, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    “When did you hear Indians complaining about their lot in Democratic RSA?”

    I don’t know. Perhaps in the media?

    http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/22/world/fearing-domination-by-blacks-indians-of-south-africa-switch-loyalties.html

    I assume you know that the ANC is now almost 100% Black African party.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Maggs Naidu

    Hey Ozone Guy,

    Don’t believe all the kak you read in the tabloids – just some of it is ok, like when they say rotten things about WHITE people, that is always true.

    But do let me know when you find real complaints from Indian people who feel hard done by just because they are Indian – and don’t fabricate stuff.

  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu
    January 7, 2013 at 16:10 pm

    Quite right. If someone gets raped in India and do not see justice there is a public uproar. If the same happens here and makes it to the paper on a slow day we start arguing with each other about who’s fault it is, who’s culture caused it and why WHITISTS are responsible, again, instead of kicking our pressies behind to do something about our legal system.

    Divide and conquer, works every time.

  • Dmwangi

    Olds:

    “Conclusion? Power = Rights.”

    Ok let’s set aside all your bullshit blather about ferns having rights, “fuzzy thinking causing AIDS,” “natural” right being derived from biological or instinctive traits, zero-sum resource scenarios or Mathusian nightmares. If this statement is true, then I don’t want to hear any more whining about being an oppressed white or woman or whatever. If ‘natural’ –which always had a particular teleological meaning in jurisprudence– means, according to you, law of the jungle or Might=Right, then if your rapist or thief can overpower you, so be it, no right has been violated and no wrong committed.

    Given that public polls indicate 80-90% of the population is pro-life, I like our chances in such Darwinian politics.

  • Olds

    Gwebecimele
    January 7, 2013 at 15:53 pm

    That tells me about the cyclist, whose demise I already know about. What about the 7 workers? I can’t find anything about that.

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    January 7, 2013 at 17:39 pm

    I don’t whine and if you speak to the countless women who are raped everyday in South Africa especially Lesbians their perception of justice will be ” then if your rapist or thief can overpower you, so be it, no right has been violated and no wrong committed.” Because they asked for it be acting unnaturally.

  • Olds

    It was my perception after the burglaries and muggings I’ve had to deal with myself as well. Have come to the conclusion that my safety is my business only and have adopted a zero tolerance approach to a’holes that tries to do me in in some way or another.

  • Dmwangi

    Olds:

    Ok, sweetie. I’m sure that’s their reaction. I sure they don’t feel like: “this bastard was able to overpower me but he had no RIGHT…. This is a massive injustice and this man ought be incarcerated.” You know, similar to how Africans felt that Might didn’t equal Right when it came to slavery, apartheid, etc. Similar to how you don’t think Might=Right when it comes to abortion.

    Btw, the idiotic notion of ‘natural’ corrective rapists invoke is the same biological-determinism rubbish you’ve been peddling here. You’re their biggest supporter.

  • Dmwangi

    And as long as Might=Right, we should consider forcibly sterilising those like yourself whose physical and intellectual strength is of dubious quality.

    I wonder, given the survival instinct, is it ‘natural’ to make arguments for eugenics when they so aptly apply to oneself? A real paradox indeed!

  • Olds

    Dmwangi
    January 7, 2013 at 18:07 pm

    You have an incredible talent for changing the subject. How did a debate about abortion find it’s way to slavery? You really just needs to be right, the topic does not matter, does it?

  • Dmwangi

    The moral principle you appealed to was Might=Right based on some misguided idea of a biologically-determinismed ‘natural.’

    I am simply seeing if this principle is as rigorous as “fuzzy thinking causes AIDS” or if it too might have some holes in it. LOL!

  • Olds

    Dwmangi
    “we should consider forcibly sterilising those like yourself whose physical and intellectual strength is of dubious quality”

    “make arguments for eugenics”

    Yikes! So this is your solution to the problem of overpopulation? Not only do you reveal yourself as a sexist and classist but now you show your facist side as well?

    I was not saying that power = right is fair but that that is the situation we are in at the moment where money can buy justice the poor cannot afford and actually, my solution to overpopulation would be to make excellent education a right and free so that people will make educated choices with regards to having children. No need to sterilize me btw I only had the one and am not planning on more.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Lol Olds,

    You’re trying “reason” with Dm.

    Impressive.

    If you could spare the time I’ve got some bricks which need a good talking to.

  • Olds

    Maggs Naidu
    January 7, 2013 at 19:24 pm

    Sigh. Yes, I do waste time in thinking others would come to see the beauty in facts but alas…

    Actually I think he will be a brilliant politician: economics and an excellent grasp of how to slither out of tight corners by twisting the facts. Perhaps the pressie will see this and offer him the position of Wizards’ Apprentice.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘No need to sterilize me btw I only had the one and am not planning on more.’

    Thank God! Is it too late to get an after-birth abortion on the bunch of ‘cells’ you call your child: http://m.jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.short

    ‘Yikes! So this is your solution to the problem of overpopulation?’

    I said ‘setting aside… Malthusian nightmares’ because there is no ‘overpopulation problem.’ And you would know that if you were a demographer or didn’t talk kak about things you don’t understand. Europe, Japan, Singapore, China all have massive de-population problems and are unable to sustain their fiscal programs which rely on steady– ~2.2– fertility rates. The U.N. prognosticates that World population will increase until 2050 and hold steady thereafter. There is no zero-sum resources nightmare either as efficiency/productivity gains allow the same amount of material matter to satisfy an ever-increasing amount of preferences. I.e. economic growth is more rapid than population growth.

    As for: “Now that you have discovered science let’s take your argument a little further after stripping off the unscientific nonsense about “rights.”

    You don’t believe rights exist. Fine. Good. Then stop whining that I want to take away your *right* to an abortion. Otherwise, since you’re a brilliant scientist, familiar with embryology, and a first-rate jurist, please explain why all living members of the species Homo sapiens do not have a right not to be murdered????

    If you cannot pointedly answer that question, quiet yourself, bow out of the debate with some semblance of self-dignity–which will be hard after going on about the ‘rights of ferns’ and ‘fuzzy thinking causing AIDS.’

  • Olds

    “All have massive de-population problems and are unable to sustain their fiscal programs ”

    You do realise you have just revealed the real reason economists fight for peoples right to breed themself into misery and are vervently “pro-life”? Obviously it does not agree with your plans to make money with same miserable, dumbed down slaves.

    As for the rest of your instructions as to what I should do, please don’t, I don’t take instructions from males unless they pay my salary and even then they need to make sense first.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘You do realise you have just revealed the real reason economists fight for peoples right to breed themself into misery….’

    You really are dangerously obtuse. You are the one who invoked resource-scarcity as justification for limiting population through permitting abortion. ‘Dumbed-down slaves’ is an odd way to describe a situation in which each successive generation has ever-increasing living standards, opportunities, and incomes as the result of stable demographics and steadily growing GDP

    ‘If you cannot pointedly answer that question, quiet yourself….’

    Now young girl, since you couldn’t respond to the only question relevant to this debate, time to mute yourself….

  • Olds

    “ever-increasing living standards, opportunities, and incomes as the result of stable demographics and steadily growing GDP”

    ROTFLHWHTF!!!

    “Young girl” was a bit OTT to get back on my good side, my ego needs no rubbing and I’m afraid your inconsistencies are starting to bore me. I prefer not to let people be born to abject misery and you want them to be born so you can watch them degrade whilst you make money off them so we will never agree.

  • Dmwangi

    We won’t agree because you’re too stupid and mendacious to answer a simple question:

    ‘Otherwise, since you’re a brilliant scientist, familiar with embryology, and a first-rate jurist, please explain why all living members of the species Homo sapiens do not have a right not to be murdered????’

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