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	<title>Comments on: Further thoughts on polygamy</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: Thabang Motsoaleletsatsi</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-28764</link>
		<dc:creator>Thabang Motsoaleletsatsi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 17:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-28764</guid>
		<description>All the above arguments have been very insightful and interesting. I am still not sure at the end of it all, why exactly having polyandry will make things any better or balance the practice of poligamy. It seems to me that basis of the argument is, if man within certain cultures can do it so should man in others and by logic, all women, given our democratic constitutionality. If this is indeed the argument, it seems pointless as it would in effect not change anything. There would surely have to a submission of truth that women will practice polyandry if it is legal - last I checked for many women, dealing with one man&#039;s demands is hard enough so how will 3,4 or 5 be at a go be doing them any good. What is the positive impact expected to be? 

I am ofcourse not arguing that polygamy is the best left alone. The very idea and practice of polygamy existed before and during the time colonial, union and apartheid governments. To better understand why it was left in place a reading of how different colonial powers decided to handle the beliefs and practices of their &#039;colonial subjects&#039; is necessary. This is not to situate the argument in history but merely a general scope of why things are as they are. 

The idea that  polygamy is practiced by some priviledged man in some cultures is strange. Not all the cultures under Customary Law practice it, even though the relevant Customary Marriages Act (which most submit to) allows. This is why the defence by some in saying that &#039; it is my culture&#039; can be equally countered by others saying &#039; it is not my culture&#039; although both/all falling under Customary Law [if you do not know this, it is best to acqaint yourself with African cultures or get friends from each in South Africa - you will be surprised to note the differences].

The only thing that should be of concern, legally speaking, is whether there is any harm being caused - this is after all fundamental to deciding on the constitutionality of polygamy. So far only misinformed perceptions and speculation is what proponents for its unconstitutionality and the institution of polyandry seem to put forward [because i can&#039;t do it, it is not fair...whiny]. The practice of polygamy is not happenstance nor serendipitous - there is need to look at what social function it fulfills and whether this is contrary to the constitution, not because some people whose culture(s) do not allow for polygamy, now want it because there is section 9. We seem to forget that the common law is western-value based and the Marriages Act its by-product, so blame it on your culture if it does not let you swing. not the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the above arguments have been very insightful and interesting. I am still not sure at the end of it all, why exactly having polyandry will make things any better or balance the practice of poligamy. It seems to me that basis of the argument is, if man within certain cultures can do it so should man in others and by logic, all women, given our democratic constitutionality. If this is indeed the argument, it seems pointless as it would in effect not change anything. There would surely have to a submission of truth that women will practice polyandry if it is legal &#8211; last I checked for many women, dealing with one man&#8217;s demands is hard enough so how will 3,4 or 5 be at a go be doing them any good. What is the positive impact expected to be? </p>
<p>I am ofcourse not arguing that polygamy is the best left alone. The very idea and practice of polygamy existed before and during the time colonial, union and apartheid governments. To better understand why it was left in place a reading of how different colonial powers decided to handle the beliefs and practices of their &#8216;colonial subjects&#8217; is necessary. This is not to situate the argument in history but merely a general scope of why things are as they are. </p>
<p>The idea that  polygamy is practiced by some priviledged man in some cultures is strange. Not all the cultures under Customary Law practice it, even though the relevant Customary Marriages Act (which most submit to) allows. This is why the defence by some in saying that &#8216; it is my culture&#8217; can be equally countered by others saying &#8216; it is not my culture&#8217; although both/all falling under Customary Law [if you do not know this, it is best to acqaint yourself with African cultures or get friends from each in South Africa - you will be surprised to note the differences].</p>
<p>The only thing that should be of concern, legally speaking, is whether there is any harm being caused &#8211; this is after all fundamental to deciding on the constitutionality of polygamy. So far only misinformed perceptions and speculation is what proponents for its unconstitutionality and the institution of polyandry seem to put forward [because i can't do it, it is not fair...whiny]. The practice of polygamy is not happenstance nor serendipitous &#8211; there is need to look at what social function it fulfills and whether this is contrary to the constitution, not because some people whose culture(s) do not allow for polygamy, now want it because there is section 9. We seem to forget that the common law is western-value based and the Marriages Act its by-product, so blame it on your culture if it does not let you swing. not the law.</p>
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		<title>By: Kobela</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-26718</link>
		<dc:creator>Kobela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-26718</guid>
		<description>Someone please help me here. you know that we try so hard in this blatern reality! I mean it is so frustrating that nothing is right anymore! religion, politics marraige and everything that walks this planet!  How do I then bring a soul in this world? I mean you are in a marraige you are bound to be afected, you are single you are still affected, for peace sake even if you are rebellious you are still bloody if not higly affected, where is the rewards to be in the straight and faITHFUL, WHEN YOU HAVE RAPE, POLOGAMY, A CHEATING MAN / OH FOR THAT MATTER A SEX EDDICTED PRESIDENT! Have you seen the ill that is flying in our communities, who the hell is going to repremand, oh please do not suggest them Priests!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone please help me here. you know that we try so hard in this blatern reality! I mean it is so frustrating that nothing is right anymore! religion, politics marraige and everything that walks this planet!  How do I then bring a soul in this world? I mean you are in a marraige you are bound to be afected, you are single you are still affected, for peace sake even if you are rebellious you are still bloody if not higly affected, where is the rewards to be in the straight and faITHFUL, WHEN YOU HAVE RAPE, POLOGAMY, A CHEATING MAN / OH FOR THAT MATTER A SEX EDDICTED PRESIDENT! Have you seen the ill that is flying in our communities, who the hell is going to repremand, oh please do not suggest them Priests!</p>
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		<title>By: Kobela</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-26715</link>
		<dc:creator>Kobela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-26715</guid>
		<description>I am sorry but as a young Southern African, a woman nogal, I then wish to be burried alive! Imagine how out of control this country is, I know that, because even the very woman are confused,who are supposed to stand their ground and protect their daughters and those men that think this is a fashion statement, they have got one thing coming! One Question for them though ( HAVE YOU BEEN SICK FROM AN STI) OR ARE YOU  THAT DEAD!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry but as a young Southern African, a woman nogal, I then wish to be burried alive! Imagine how out of control this country is, I know that, because even the very woman are confused,who are supposed to stand their ground and protect their daughters and those men that think this is a fashion statement, they have got one thing coming! One Question for them though ( HAVE YOU BEEN SICK FROM AN STI) OR ARE YOU  THAT DEAD!</p>
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		<title>By: Sine</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-23800</link>
		<dc:creator>Sine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 07:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-23800</guid>
		<description>@ Chris McDaniel

I have no idea how you got here;


&quot;So the way I see it is polygamy is here to stay but it should also be balanced with polyandry&quot;


and my terrible headache did not help me either...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Chris McDaniel</p>
<p>I have no idea how you got here;</p>
<p>&#8220;So the way I see it is polygamy is here to stay but it should also be balanced with polyandry&#8221;</p>
<p>and my terrible headache did not help me either&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Cahill</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-23799</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Cahill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 06:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-23799</guid>
		<description>Um ... sorry ... Ferd, not Fred :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um &#8230; sorry &#8230; Ferd, not Fred <img src='http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Lee Cahill</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-23798</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Cahill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 06:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-23798</guid>
		<description>@ Chris - agreed. If the right to polygamous unions is provided for in law, this should be appropriately balanced by the right to polyndrous unions. Whatever the history and background to polygamy, if men have the right to marry multiple wives, a similar right should extend to women. And these rights should extend to ALL men and women, not just to individuals from certain cultural groups. 

@Fred - agreed too - why is Modjadi regarded as an exception if that&#039;s the norm in her culture??

So, bottom line, we have a cultural precedent in SA for both polygamous and polyandrous unions, so why is only polygamy permitted in terms of the law??? A bit of selective law-making again ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Chris &#8211; agreed. If the right to polygamous unions is provided for in law, this should be appropriately balanced by the right to polyndrous unions. Whatever the history and background to polygamy, if men have the right to marry multiple wives, a similar right should extend to women. And these rights should extend to ALL men and women, not just to individuals from certain cultural groups. </p>
<p>@Fred &#8211; agreed too &#8211; why is Modjadi regarded as an exception if that&#8217;s the norm in her culture??</p>
<p>So, bottom line, we have a cultural precedent in SA for both polygamous and polyandrous unions, so why is only polygamy permitted in terms of the law??? A bit of selective law-making again &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ferd</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-23795</link>
		<dc:creator>Ferd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-23795</guid>
		<description>Prof, seeing that traditional aceptance seems to be important in the law accepting more than one spouse, how far will die hard hippies get with an argument that it is their tradition to live together in numbers and share beds? 
And secondly isn&#039;t it a bit rough saying the tradition of the rain queen having more than one male spouse should not be taken seriously as it is an exception? It is not an exception in that culture, is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof, seeing that traditional aceptance seems to be important in the law accepting more than one spouse, how far will die hard hippies get with an argument that it is their tradition to live together in numbers and share beds?<br />
And secondly isn&#8217;t it a bit rough saying the tradition of the rain queen having more than one male spouse should not be taken seriously as it is an exception? It is not an exception in that culture, is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris McDaniel</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-23772</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris McDaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 04:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-23772</guid>
		<description>Sine says: 
January 7, 2010 at 15:01 pm

(1) Polyandry

1.1 The first problem we have here is that RSA legislation, notably the Marriage Act of 1961, prohibits marrying more than one spouse.

The reason for this is your laws and your country &quot;south africa&quot; as you know it was founded on Christian believes, I believe Christianity is still the dominating religion here in South Africa.

Sine
&quot;1.2 The second one relates to the lack of any other basis upon which the introduction of polyandry could be based. It has historically and culturally never been part of our law or culture. What could the reason for introducing it now be?&quot;

There are actualy a few reasons but one has to dive in scientific research now.

Woman as we know them have historically and culturally been discriminated against in all cultures in all religions.

It is only up until modern times females are on an equal footing as man, they can vote, the can join the military and carry a service rifle and go to war, they can even start up or move up the ranks in business and become directors, CEO&#039;s and so forth, Woman can even now run for presidency.

One of the prereqs for Polygamy is the economcal factor, can a Man support equaly more wives?

The same can be applied to a Woman who is financialy secure and is in a postion to support 5 husbands equaly.

The problem comes into play and this is the scientific bit, its called the laws of attraction. Ever since man lived in caves, females were attracted to the man who can bring the biggest meat home, the same is still applied in modern times, females are attracted to successful men. A scientific research was done in the states where they took 3 guys and gave them fake salary incomes basicaly their &quot;NET WORTH&quot; it noticed that a male who would be deemed attractive was deemed unattractive becuase he earned a lower salary than what an 18yr old can earn.

But yet this is the modern world where woman can now no longer rely on men to bring the biggest meat home, they can go out and get it themselves, so you will find females who marry men who earn a lower salary than a woman and the woman becomes the head of the household. The mere fact a woman is head of a household is once again against christian believes is God is head of man and man is the head of woman.

The other side of things is the very nature of Polygamy and the flaw involved in it is purly simple and that is it can be seen as discriminatory against men itself.

If there are 50% of females in society and 50% of males in society and polygamy is widly practiced. it becomes discriminatory towards men for equal chance for reproduction and breeding and the very nature why we actually here on earth to pass your genes on. The only way then to balance this out would be to introduce polyandry.

But as I mentioned the only way to introduce it would be by consensus.

Take gay relationships it wasnt cultural or historical in South Africa. only until modern times but yet it became legal for gay couples to marry, this only happend by consensus.

The way of life is changing if we take another approach we look at bisexuality. what about Bisexuals to marry?

It is perfectly ok for a man to be in a relationship with two bisexual girls ( How many men would love for this to happen?) but society frowns upon a woman involved in a relationship with a woman involved with 2 bisexual guys.

So the way I see it is polygamy is here to stay but it should also be balanced with polyandry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sine says:<br />
January 7, 2010 at 15:01 pm</p>
<p>(1) Polyandry</p>
<p>1.1 The first problem we have here is that RSA legislation, notably the Marriage Act of 1961, prohibits marrying more than one spouse.</p>
<p>The reason for this is your laws and your country &#8220;south africa&#8221; as you know it was founded on Christian believes, I believe Christianity is still the dominating religion here in South Africa.</p>
<p>Sine<br />
&#8220;1.2 The second one relates to the lack of any other basis upon which the introduction of polyandry could be based. It has historically and culturally never been part of our law or culture. What could the reason for introducing it now be?&#8221;</p>
<p>There are actualy a few reasons but one has to dive in scientific research now.</p>
<p>Woman as we know them have historically and culturally been discriminated against in all cultures in all religions.</p>
<p>It is only up until modern times females are on an equal footing as man, they can vote, the can join the military and carry a service rifle and go to war, they can even start up or move up the ranks in business and become directors, CEO&#8217;s and so forth, Woman can even now run for presidency.</p>
<p>One of the prereqs for Polygamy is the economcal factor, can a Man support equaly more wives?</p>
<p>The same can be applied to a Woman who is financialy secure and is in a postion to support 5 husbands equaly.</p>
<p>The problem comes into play and this is the scientific bit, its called the laws of attraction. Ever since man lived in caves, females were attracted to the man who can bring the biggest meat home, the same is still applied in modern times, females are attracted to successful men. A scientific research was done in the states where they took 3 guys and gave them fake salary incomes basicaly their &#8220;NET WORTH&#8221; it noticed that a male who would be deemed attractive was deemed unattractive becuase he earned a lower salary than what an 18yr old can earn.</p>
<p>But yet this is the modern world where woman can now no longer rely on men to bring the biggest meat home, they can go out and get it themselves, so you will find females who marry men who earn a lower salary than a woman and the woman becomes the head of the household. The mere fact a woman is head of a household is once again against christian believes is God is head of man and man is the head of woman.</p>
<p>The other side of things is the very nature of Polygamy and the flaw involved in it is purly simple and that is it can be seen as discriminatory against men itself.</p>
<p>If there are 50% of females in society and 50% of males in society and polygamy is widly practiced. it becomes discriminatory towards men for equal chance for reproduction and breeding and the very nature why we actually here on earth to pass your genes on. The only way then to balance this out would be to introduce polyandry.</p>
<p>But as I mentioned the only way to introduce it would be by consensus.</p>
<p>Take gay relationships it wasnt cultural or historical in South Africa. only until modern times but yet it became legal for gay couples to marry, this only happend by consensus.</p>
<p>The way of life is changing if we take another approach we look at bisexuality. what about Bisexuals to marry?</p>
<p>It is perfectly ok for a man to be in a relationship with two bisexual girls ( How many men would love for this to happen?) but society frowns upon a woman involved in a relationship with a woman involved with 2 bisexual guys.</p>
<p>So the way I see it is polygamy is here to stay but it should also be balanced with polyandry</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Cahill</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-23758</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Cahill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-23758</guid>
		<description>i.e. : Should culture trump rights?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i.e. : Should culture trump rights?</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Cahill</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/further-thoughts-on-polygamy/#comment-23756</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Cahill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1825#comment-23756</guid>
		<description>Oh the tangled webs we weave ... :)

Just another thought ... even if polyandry isn&#039;t part of our history or culture, if polygamy is permitted within the framework of a constitution that protects equal rights, then the very fact that it IS permitted is surely grounds for arguing that polyandry should be permitted by equal measure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh the tangled webs we weave &#8230; <img src='http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Just another thought &#8230; even if polyandry isn&#8217;t part of our history or culture, if polygamy is permitted within the framework of a constitution that protects equal rights, then the very fact that it IS permitted is surely grounds for arguing that polyandry should be permitted by equal measure.</p>
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