Constitutional Hill

FW de Klerk reveals dark underbelly of white South Africa

The interview on CNN with FW de Klerk, South Africa’s last apartheid President, has gotten many South Africans hot under the collar – and rightly so. In the interview, De Klerk refuses to admit that apartheid as a concept was immoral and wrong. Claiming that he did apologise for the “injustices wrought by apartheid”, he empahises that what he has not apologized for “is the original concept of seeking to bring justice to all South Africans through the concept of nation states (essentially creating two separate states, one black and one white)”.


He then proceeds to explain why the system of racial segregation and the subjugation of black South Africans by the white minority had “failed” in the following rather cold-hearted and unemotional manner:

But in South Africa it failed. And by the end of the ‘70’s, we had to realize, and accept and admit to ourselves that it had failed. And that is when fundamental reform started…. There are three reasons it (apartheid) failed. It failed because the whites wanted to keep too much land for themselves. It failed because we (whites and blacks) became economically integrated, and it failed because the majority of blacks said that is not how we want our rights…. I can only say in a qualified way. Inasmuch as it trampled human right, it was – and remains – and that I’ve said also publicly, morally reprehensible. But the concept of giving as the Czechs have it and the Slovaks have it, of saying that ethnic unities with one culture, with one language, can be happy and can fulfil their democratic aspirations in an own state, that is not repugnant.

The attitude displayed by De Klerk is shared by many (but thankfully by no means all) white South Africans and to my mind it illustrates quite emphatically why white South Africans are still widely viewed with some scepticism by many black South Africans. It is a timely reminder that many white South Africans do not “get” race and that they do not know or, worse, do not care that they are not getting it.

What De Klerk cannot admit or what he is incapable of admitting is that apartheid was not wrong – a moral abomination – because it had “failed” or merely because the human rights of black South Africans were trampled on in order to enforce the system of white domination. It was morally reprehensible because it was born out of a profound racist attitude towards black South Africans, and its logic was based on the dehumanising belief, at best, that white people were morally, intellectually and culturally superior to black people and, at worst, that black people are not fully human and do not deserve to be treated with even a modicum of concern and respect.

Apartheid was the logical result of the ideology of racism enforced by the state and could only be implemented because white South Africans believed then (as many continue to believe today – even if they are not aware of this and will deny it) that they are infinitely superior as a group to black people as a group.

Apartheid can therefore not be compared with what has happened in the former Czechoslovakia. Neither can it be compared with the impulse in Belgium for French and Flemish speakers to want to govern themselves. In these countries, different language, cultural or ethnic groups have chosen to be goverened by those who are like them, not because of the inherent belief that they are intellectually, culturally and morally superior to another group and because of the fear and hatred towards that group. Unlike with the apartheid system, the founding belief of these societies are not that its members would be tainted, subverted or defiled if they had to mix with another group whom they believed to be inferior.

The system of apartheid was not only tainted by racism or skewed by it, leading to human rights abuses against black South Africans. Racism – the fear and hatred of black South Africans by white South Africans born out of a sense of imperious superiority – was the very reasons for the creation and enforcement of apartheid.

One of the most deeply problematic aspects of life in post-apartheid South Africa is that so many white South Africans continue to deny this fact and seem incapable of confronting their own deeply ingrained sense that as white people they are generally intellectually, culturally and morally superior to most black people – although they think that by making an exception for Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu they have overcome the racism within them. Fact is: we have not dealt with our own racism, no matter how progressive we are and no matter how we claim to be non-racist. Many of us may not use the “k”-word and may express our abhorance of racism, but we cannot “unwhite” ourselves and cut ourselves loose from the racists culture and world in which we live. How could we, as racism is embedded in Western culture as a defining characteristic of that culture, a culture which helps to define who we are and where we are supposed to “belong”.

That is, perhaps, why so many white South Africans get so defensive when one talks about racism, and when one calls someone out on his or her own blatant or latent racism and why excuses are so often made for racists. Because if as white South Africans we are all morally tainted because we are white, if because being white necessarily implies that we carry within our bodies the virus of racism born out of a false sense of racial superiority, then we stop being who we think we are and we lose our sense of identity as whites who by definition are superior.

When we confront the virus of racism that pumps through our veins because we happen to be white, we have to admit that we are not superior to anyone and, in fact, we become, at least, as morally tainted as everyone else, but probably morally far inferior to black South Africans. But as the definition of whiteness implies for many white people a (often unspoken and unexamined) superiority to other racial groups, this acceptance of the fact that we are morally tainted (also) because we are white (of course, no one in the world is not tainted in some way), is literally impossible to comprehend, something that would drive one mad because, for many, it just cannot be true!

No wonder De Klerk has to insist that apartheid was wrong merely because it did not work very well. If he had to admit that the very premise of apartheid made it an evil system, he would have to confront the fact that he was part of a deeply immoral system and this would fatally undermine or even destroy his sense of self – his sense of self as an essentially good person who might (because of circumstances) have made a “few mistakes” but who remains the morally superior white person he implicitly believes himself to be.

This is perhaps also why the Democratic Alliance (DA) is finding it difficult to navigate the troubled waters of racism. Earlier today journalist Osiame Molefe tellingly tweeted: “Taking on racist models is one thing, what says the DA on apartheid denialist de Klerk.” Molefe is right, but I am not sure that the DA will be able to answer him and to respond appropriately because it would create too much tension inside the DA and that party would be at war with itself.

Fact is that the DA is between a rock and a hard place. If it really wanted to confront its image of being a party for whites, a party that arrogantly exudes the values of white superiority, it will have to confront the deeply embedded notion of white superiority that so many of its current voters (and some of its public representatives) fearfully cling to in order to retain the sense that they are essentially decent human beings. It is never easy to admit that one is not as decent as one would have liked.

What the majority of white people in the world do not understand is that it can be rather liberating to throw off the burden imposed on us by the need to feel superior to others. By admitting that it is impossible to be free from racism, given that we live in a world whose economic and social structures are based on the notion of white superiority, one is freed to begin to face up to one’s responsibilities and to begin to address the problem. If one embraces the fact that one is not special, that (like all other human beings) one is incapable of living a truly ethical life but that one has an ethical duty to continue trying to do so, it is easier to let go of the anger and the hatred (and the fear and the shame which produces the anger and the hatred) that poisons one’s life.

And now I wait for the barrage of angry posts by those who prefer to continue living in their denialist cocoon of festering anger and hatred. But whether they really hate others or themselves, only they will be able to tell.

  • Gwen

    Great piece, Prof.

  • Puleng M.

    I’ve always held your theory to be true: that a lot of white South Africans trivialize Apartheid because if they didn’t they’d have to accept their own racisim and worse yet, their guilt for upholding they system (either tacitly or implicitly) or, if they’re too youung for that, the guilt of their parents, loved ones, community.

    This is a very articulately written post and as a black South African it’s refreshing to hear this view point from a (white) fellow Saffer. It gives hope that some people really do ‘get it’.

    *Excuse the spelling, I’m useless without spell check

  • Pierre

    Amen, Pierre.

  • Chris

    As these important “blunders” (models, De Klerk, numerous others) occur, we have to accept them gratefully as opportunities to deal with the underlying issues. White supremacist attitudes, denial that everyone, also blacks, can be and are racist, need to be on the table, more awareness, more sensitivity, more honesty, more tolerance, more plain and simple humanity need to enter our attitudes, thoughts, words and deeds. This road, although less travelled thus far, has to be followed by all of us!

  • http://www.urbanjoburg.com Tom

    Brilliant post, Pierre. And quite seminal, too. May it initiate a frank and honest discussion about race in SA, and how we whites are scared to deal with our inherent prejudices.

  • Coenie

    This is a angry comment: why the fuck is De Klerk linked to the DA, ask the fucking ANC, that is his party and political home now, just ask Kortbroek and the fucking FF+ where they are?! WAKE UP IDIOTS, the racists are the leaders of this nation, the AFRIKANER NATIONAL CONGRESS!

  • Sine

    What de Klerk has said is very sad. However, it has presented him with an opportunity to be corrected and for him to learn. Most importantly, it has opened up the much needed talk on racism and will help all South Africans moving forward. Thanks for the great piece Prof.

  • khosi

    Is the Pierre de Vos that we have come to know still writing this blog?

    Another great one.

    People often confuse what many white people are going through and call it guilt. White people like De Klerk have no feeling of guilt. It is shame. And shame is a demon more brutal and far more unforgiving than guilt.

    A psychologists view on shame: http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame.html

    Looking at De Klerk’s eyes, I saw demons trying to come out.

  • Dayamond

    Brilliant!

  • Tim

    There is a persistent failure amongst commentators like Pierre to accept that the black population nearest to our existing country were primitive in many respects. Decisions made by successive governments were based on this principle; for example who was allowed to vote.

    (This was also used in an old English system which allowed only votes to those owning land.)

    Ask yourself if you would want to share a church pew with a person who had not washed for a year, adorned themselves with rancid sheep fat and cleared his nose on the floor? The basis of Apartheid.

    Modern leaders of the country didn’t do their utmost to educate their populace and opted to preserve their culture by separation. This was clearly wrong/misguided and all the other adjectives.

    My point is this. Don’t use 21st Century circumstances to condemn 17th Century wrongs. It doesn’t work that way.

    Also, don’t blame people simply because of their colour.

    SA has millions of well-educated, well mannered people who happened to be white. Why marginalize them? Use them to further the country and recognize their value.

  • Mike Ambassador

    OK as a 40 year old white male South African, who has two daughters and would love a life for them in SA – WHAT DO BLACKS WANT FROM US? and please no wishy washy answers actual practical ideas. I thnak you.

  • Chero.

    Amazing piece of writing.I intend to share this.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    “One of the most deeply problematic aspects of life in post-apartheid South Africa is that so many white South Africans continue to deny this fact and seem incapable of confronting their own deeply ingrained sense that as white people they are generally intellectually, culturally and morally superior to most black people…”

    Prof you may well be one of the few remaining honest men in South Africa.

  • Anso

    Great piece…thanks for saying what we all wish we could articulate as well as you do.

  • Sine

    Tim says:
    May 11, 2012 at 15:44 pm

    “Don’t use 21st Century circumstances to condemn 17th Century wrongs.”

    That is amongst the most misguided statements I have ever witnessed. Apartheid was formally abolished in 1994, not 1694. Do the maths.

  • Gert

    Dit is so ironies FW De Klerk kan Vinnig praat oor wit blank rasis maar alles in Suid Afrika is nie wat mense dink nie as jy nie hier woon nie weet jy niks net soos wit mense geblameer word vir alles in die verlede moet daar gekyk word wat nou in die land aan gaan dis net om gekeer dis ons wat nou aan die kortste end trek. De klerk wil seker maak die wereld onthou hom tog vir u nobel prys wenner. Dinge in die land sal nooit verander solank daar mense soos hy is nie daar is nog u hele paar ander in ons regering net soos hy. Plaas ga sit hy op sy plaas wat al ons wit vellllle gekoop het en hou homself besig met plaas werk want duidelik weet hy nie war in die land aan gaan nie

  • Niel

    You know, I’m so sorry I’m white, I’m sorry I’m living and breathing! excuse me for existing! We have to apologise and grovel for ever! All this time my tax money is good enough even if it goes into pockets of corrupt officials instead of where it is supposed to go

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Pierre

    ” … as white South Africans we are all morally tainted because we are white … being white necessarily implies that we carry within our bodies the virus of racism”

    This is a fine exposition of the science of WHITISHNESS that I have been striving to articulate, albeit with limited success. I am especially impressed by the way that Pierre’s sentiment resonates with the seminal theology of ORIGINAL SIN — a concept with which South Africans are comfortable; after all, we are one of the most “Christian” societies in the world

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    @Niel

    “If one embraces the fact that one is not special, that (like all other human beings) one is incapable of living a truly ethical life but that one has an ethical duty to continue trying to do so, it is easier to let go of the anger and the hatred (and the fear and the shame which produces the anger and the hatred) that poisons one’s life”

  • Dan

    This goes to show that it will take time for white south africans to accept change but at least this way we as black south africans get a chance to understand what we ar still dealing with. But what I can really say is that its not only for black to learn and forgive but also for whites. Lastly to all black south africans stand your ground and let’s stop fighting ourselves and let’s start building each other, let’s help our fellow black south africans because we need to build this country where a black south african is completely free and in power. Its our right as black south africans.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Prof. de Vos. I have never been a keen supporter of Mr. de Klerk, but your propaganda talk calling De Klerk cold-hearted and unemotional with reference to his explanation of apartheid, is rather ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing wrong with ethnic groups, where the members of such groups share the same language and the same culture, wishing to be governed by their own in a defined territory. The fact that the majority of black people vote for the ANC and seem to prefer to live in a multicultural democracy within a unitary state may well be the case, but I for one Afrikaner has become a victim of black majority rule and I know that I am not the only Afrikaner inside or outside the RSA who holds this opinion. I certainly prefer to be governed by my own people who share in my own culture and value systems.

    Fortunately both international law and the international community support the notion of self-determination for a people. Where the kind of discrimination and oppression to which Afrikaners as a minority people have fallen victim under an ANC government since 1994 become as awkward as is increasingly the case in SA, secession of territory for self-determination becomes a viable option for Afrikaners. Just as Mr. de Klerk was brought up in a way where the concept of separate development for the various peoples of SA was not regarded as immoral, I and many others still believe that minority peoples, such as the Afrikaner, have the right to take control of their own fait. This has absolutely nothing to do with racism or racial superiority. Many Afrikaners (and others in the world outside) are no longer interested in being branded as racists merely because they wish to be governed by there own people in their own territory.

    In any event, I have absolutely no desire to live like or become a Zulu, Xhosa, Venda, Tswana or any of the other black African ethnic groups in southern Africa. I cherish my Western values, including my Afrikaans mother tongue, and at the same time I regard myself as an Afrikaner belonging to an indigenous minority people of Africa. This has absolutely nothing to do with racism, since many Afrikaners with a tinted skin colour hold the same conviction. The anger and hatred which you refer to in many instances have developed since 1994, where Afrikaners are not only being culturally denigrated and economically dismantled, they are also being wiped out at a rate which the international organization, Genocide Watch, has put at level 5 of 8 possible stages of genocide. At the same time the black majority ANC government is clearly leading what once was known as the jewel of Africa to become a failed state.

    Your obsession with racism is repulsive. In Afrikaans we have this saying: ‘Niemand is so blind soos hy wat nie wíl sien nie, en niemand so doof soos hy wat nie wíl hoor nie’.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘When we confront the virus of racism that pumps through our veins because we happen to be white….’

    Is this satire? I’ve come to expect such hollow, codswallop analysis from PdV but the fact that so many commenters found it profound is troubling.

    While it’s axiomatic that many whites continue to downplay the horrors of apartheid, PdV has nothing to say about why racism/tribalism has been endemic in every human culture throughout history. (His dismissal of Euro examples– Belgium and Czech– is idiotic. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history knows the wars of Europe raged because of ethnic and tribal superiority complexes. Bosnian Serbs absolutely believed they were inherently ‘intellectually, culturally and morally superior.’ Same was true of Germans under Hitler, French under Napolean, Russians unders Stalin and the czars before him.) Nor does PdV provide have any prescriptions for dealing with it.

    Moreover, in a perverse way, he is doing exactly what he self-righteously accuses others of: failing to recognise his own moral depravity. Instead he sententiously lectures other whites about blindness to their inherent racism, thereby making himself the enlightened, virtuous white who is morally superior enough to recognise his inferiority.

    Meanwhile, just the other day, he accused 86% of his fellow citizens– of all hues — of being ‘morally inferior’ for believing homosexual acts are immoral.

    This man is a charlatan. He merely tries to ingratiate himself to blacks by ‘confessing’ as a white that all whites are (conciously or unconciously) racists, permeated with racialist thinking, morally inferior, etc. It is a power-play. He’s attempting to obtain some moral authority so he’ll have more traction pushing his political agenda.

    As a black person, I find it insulting that he thinks we are of such low IQ we will not be able to see through his simplistic, transparent narratives.

    PdV: at least de Klerk is honest about his views and we know where he stands. Quit trying to use ‘bullshit’ and deception to advance your ideology.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, if I did not know — as a fact — that you blacks enjoy a comprehensive immunity to the VIRUS of racism, I would suspect that your churlish dismissal of the hand of friendship from PdV was indeed a form of bigotry. As it is, I can only assume that you are so swollen up with pride that you are unable to accept a generous mea culpa from a rare righteous whitist!

    Thanks.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Dmwangi. Well said, the need to expose self-appointed moralists such as PdV for what they really are has become well overdue.

  • Victor

    The truly ironic thing is that in this article, you continue to re-inforce racial stereotypes and continue to separate people according to race. The articale is rampant with generalizations.

    “we become, at least, as morally tainted as everyone else, but probably morally far inferior to black South Africans”

    It doesn’t matter which races are used, but this statement is asserting that one race, in general, is inferior to another, which is exactly the mentality that you are criticizing so verbosely.

    It is impossible to “get” race. Race does not exist. It is an empty concept. The only meaning it has is the meaning we invest in it. When will people realise that there is no race except the human race? We are all equal. Discrimination based on race will continue for as long as a distinction is made between humans of different appearance.

    Mr de Vos, I hope that you will see that you are continuing to drive a wedge between the people of this nation, by separating them based on skin colour and generalizing their behaviour.

  • Piet Croucamp

    All I can say is: well said Fred. De Klerk is the most despicable remnant of our political past. What a throughly dishonest man he is.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Apartheid can therefore not be compared with what has happened in the former Czechoslovakia. Neither can it be compared with the impulse in Belgium for French and Flemish speakers to want to govern themselves.’

    And what about the dalites, Tamils, uyghurs and Tibetans??? Their oppressors must have taken their cues from the Western tradition???

  • Annon

    Seriously people, are you going back.. seriously.. I must be honest and say that I am so dissappointed with my country. People have not changed their attitudes. They don’t want to work hard anymore, they want things given to them. People need to learn to just accept all colours. I think giving more jobs to dark skinned people will not change anything. A person is a person. If you can do the job you should be able to get the job no matter what colour you are. Damn when will people get over this shit..

  • Vuyo

    @Khosi,

    I was asking myself the same thing!!!!

    Regarding shame; I think it’s an element but NOT all of it. I think the primary motive is the realization that once you admit that you are a beneficiary, mainly, of ill-gotten gains (and not intellect, hard work, etc) then ethics and morality dictate that those gains/goods/benefits are not rightfully yours. Your title becomes insecure and, in a capitalist society, where the supreme relationship is between subject and object/property, you are in trouble. When the very basis of your social status (property) is theft, how do you live with yourself?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 16:58 pm

    Hey Dm,

    “And what about the dalites, Tamils, uyghurs and Tibetans??? Their oppressors must have taken their cues from the Western tradition???”

    Indeed!

    But what about our dearly beloved now revered, the late Father of Africa, Dr Idi Amin?

    Where did he get his cue from to love and cherish the rent-seeking Indians as he did?

  • Marguerite Holtzhausen

    Thanks you Pierre
    You make my day with this article!

  • Dmwangi

    ‘But what about our dearly beloved now revered, the late Father of Africa, Dr Idi Amin?

    Where did he get his cue from to love and cherish the rent-seeking Indians as he did?’

    Exactly. As I said: ‘racism/tribalism has been endemic in every human culture throughout history.’ Every human culture would include Africa. I have no problem admitting this. It is PdV who thinks he is somehow more edified than the rest of us because he’s ‘discovered’ this is exclusive to Euro culture. Again, this man is a charlatan and has nothing useful to say about human nature, public policies for regulating its more unsavoury aspects or the role/ability of the state to do so. He’s simply here to push his ideology and if that includes using puerile, simpleton narratives which appeal to emotion and racial antagonism, he’ll do it.

    What’s hilarious is that he lectured me about discounting the ‘moral agency’ of traditional Africans because we find homosexual acts immoral, and two days later writes:

    ‘When we confront the virus of racism that pumps through our veins because we happen to be white….’

  • Dmwangi

    Hard to have ‘moral agency’ when one’s morality is dictated by virology!

  • Dmwangi

    Zdenek is right: PdV is not a scholar. He’s a bad entertainer.

  • Red pill joe

    What a piece of parroted garbage. De Klerk said nothing that was wrong. The only wrong you people can find is that he didn’t crawl around on he’s knees like a little pathetic spineless moron. This is the only country in the world where a wish to be governed by people of your own group can be twisted into something evil in this manner. This is pathetic.

  • Pierre De Vos

    Maybe there is hope for the DA after all….. http://www.da.org.za/newsroom.htm?action=view-news-item&id=10679

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Vuyo

    “Your title becomes insecure and, in a capitalist society, where the supreme relationship is between subject and object/property, you are in trouble.”

    Yes. A good example is the hollowness of American’s pride in their national prosperity. What is attributed to hard work the American people was founded, at least in part, upon (a) dispossession of the land of native Americans; (b) slavery; (c) two centuries of capitalist appropriation.

    The catch, though, is that this delegitimation applies across the board. Southern Africa, too, was not res nullius when Nguni-speaking peoples arrived. Only the most hopeless romantic would deny that San and Khoi hunter-gathers were not – in addition to being hunted like dogs by the European colonialists – also displaced by Nguni-speaking pastoralists.

    Also: Much as those who hold wealth in Europe now accumulated it through capitalist exploitation of the European working classes, it would be naive to think that there were not relations of exploitation in pre-colonial “African” society. (See the selling of slaves by dominant African tribes to both white and Arab slave traders.) The messiness of real history makes it an unstable foundation for modern morality plays.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Mike Ambassador
    May 11, 2012 at 15:45 pm
    OK as a 40 year old white male South African, who has two daughters and would love a life for them in SA – WHAT DO BLACKS WANT FROM US? and please no wishy washy answers actual practical ideas. I thnak you.’

    Life in a moral community where ppl live in proper relation to themselves and others– by willing the advancement of the various goods of human life that promote flourishing. Nothing more.

    Unfortunately, all of these whites like PdV, MDF, etc. believe both moral community and goodness are illusions.

  • Chris

    It seems to me that De Vos has an obsession with Race and Racism. But then again what do you expect when the constitution and teh ANC government entrenches it even more evrey day. The ANC is maintaining its power, based on race politics. Theres just no getting away from it. Your race is shoved in your face every day.
    I think that it wil be better for everybody if Afrikaners in particular is allowed self-determination on a territorial basis. Then the race issue is finally settled, De Vos can get an new hobby, Afrikaners can do their own thing without getting in a race debacle every day, the black people are no-longer threatened by racism and the return of Apartheid, the ANC can start to concentrate on the freedom charter in stead of race politics, and the DA can finally get rid of its “Whitemans” party image and give the ANC a run for its money -real democracy. Its a win-win for everybody. Maybe the African Renaissance can actually make a start then with everybody cooperating without the constant Race threat messing things up all the time.
    Afterall doesnt Article 235 of Law 108 of the RSA constitution recognize self-determination for peoples of South Africa as a right ?
    Not to mention Art. 1(1) of the Internationale Covenant on Civil and Political Rights : ‘All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Pierre De Vos
    May 7, 2012 at 8:07 am
    I have always thought the “moral fabric of society” is something one uses to make a wedding dress out of.’

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Pierre

    No Pierre, there is still no hope for the DA. Note that Ms “Public School” Mazibuko also wrote: “Mr De Klerk’s role in dismantling Apartheid has and should be recognised and applauded.” Just goes to show how completely the little (!) tea girl has absorbed the spirit of WHITISM from her racist, fully botoxified mentor.

    Thanks.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 18:04 pm
    ‘Pierre De Vos
    May 7, 2012 at 8:07 am
    I have always thought the “moral fabric of society” is something one uses to make a wedding dress out of.’’

    Meanwhile, this whole post is about the threat posed to society by whites not recognising the moral inferiority of their inherent racism.

    Mind-boggling why UCT continues to employ this man.

  • radix lecti

    I’m sorry to say, Proff, that I found your post puke-worthy.

  • Marguerite Holtzhausen

    De Klerk’s interview is cringeworthy. So embarrassing!

  • Mike Ambassador

    @ Dmwangi thanks for the answering, however I am looking for something practical to do.

    My kids are all “Freeborn” (1996 and 1998), how can they be ‘legally’ discriminated against via AA / BEE / etc for what there parents and grand parents did. My youngest has a black friend who has been with her in school all the way to matric, why should the friend have an unfair advantage over my daughter – considering her dad earns more than me, they live in a bigger house than me, and live in a better suburb than me – so who out of the two has a disadvantage.

    Must I pay the Tutu tax, must I sell everything and give it to the ANC and move into a shack in Gugs. Must I crawl over broken glass, pack up and try immigrate / etc /etc!!

    What do blacks want ???

  • Dmwangi

    Honestly, the childish simplicity of PdV’s propaganda leads me to conclude he must be one of the least self-examining (in the moral/intellectual– not sexual–sense) I’ve ever encountered. Does he ever ask himself: I wonder if I’m wrong about X… race, politics, morality of homosexual lifestyle, constitutional interpretation, religion, literary criticism, etc.

    Or does the comfort of simple-minded dogma and the pursuit of ideological ends trump all other values? (i.e. intellectual honesty, curiosity, pursuit of truth, etc)

  • Dmwangi

    The irony of which is that this post is dedicated to alleged self-criticism.

  • Dmwangi

    Correction:
    The irony of which is that this post is alledegly dedicated to self-criticism.

  • thaps

    Racism is a direct product of white supremacist ideology, it is impossible for blacks to be racist towards white given the history, there has only been one aggressor, one oppressor, one disposessor and that perpetrator of all these crimes is WHITE be it in Australia, Latin America or North America. As victims of this 350 years of white brutalisation we have every reason to fight back and demand that those who benefitted from our oppression pay back and if that is racism then you have not really confronted your own racism

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mike Ambassador
    May 11, 2012 at 18:57 pm

    Hey Mike – you sure seem to be struggling!

    Maybe, just maybe, in time you’ll get it.

    p.s. Dm too – but differently – he’s struggling to be relevant.

  • Dmwangi

    @Mike Ambassador:

    You seem to be expressing a rhetorical question in exasperation rather than an actual inquisitive one but I’ll respond anyway.

    No, you need not take a vow of poverty to be a responsible citizen. But note that your daughter’s friend and her family are the exception– outliers if you wish. Blacks want what everyone else does: education, healthcare, work, housing, etc. What you personally do to help others– all others, not just blacks– facilitate the attainment and maintenance of these goods is up to you. But I do submit it is a duty, a moral imperative, and what and how one chooses to do this goes right to the heart of his/her character.

  • Dmwangi

    Here you go PdV, great example of what happens when simplistic demagogues teach ppl ‘reason is instrumental’ and they should follow their emotions. This pupil has no grasp of history, philosophy or even basic logic– and seems completely untroubled by it. After all, his emotions, intuitions, and personal experiences are enough to discern truth and prescriptions to serious moral problems so who needs reason and books???

    ‘thaps
    May 11, 2012 at 19:18 pm
    Racism is a direct product of white supremacist ideology, it is impossible for blacks to be racist towards white given the history, there has only been one aggressor, one oppressor, one disposessor and that perpetrator of all these crimes is WHITE be it in Australia, Latin America or North America. As victims of this 350 years of white brutalisation we have every reason to fight back and demand that those who benefitted from our oppression pay back and if that is racism then you have not really confronted your own racism’

  • Max

    Pierre, jy’s allright.

  • Cor Ehlers

    Let us not forget that people like PdV get paid to write the kind of nonsense that he does in this article. However, http://www.beeld.com/In-Diepte/Nuus/Liberale-masker-val-af-20120507

  • Mike Ambassador

    You see Maggs your answers are like a cheap sci-fi movie leaving criptic clues in a hope “in time I will get it”.

    And yes I am struggling as I love my children and wish them to have a life without discrimination, just like I am sure you want the same for your children.

    Both my kids are fully geared up to leave SA (my sister is in Aussie and they will probibly move there) when they are finished there studies because they see no future for themselves.

    So again I ask what do blacks want?

  • sirjay jonson

    I haven’t read the comments Prof, but will do so after my post. To put it simply, I don’t get it. I don’t get your outrage and the social media outrage. De Klerk speaks both sincerely and positively about Mandela. Although what is not in the interview which you have made available above are his comments about the homelands, but in the news report I read that he said Apartheid was morally repugnant.

    Again I say, I don’t get it. The man made it possible for Mandela to be released, made it possible for a new dispensation to unfold. What is all the fuss about. I repeat, I simply don’t get SAfrica’s response to this interview.

    Acta non verba.

  • Brett Nortje

    I can understand that to a lot of people the introspection required to examine ones’ foe’s motives from his perspective might become deeply unsettling, cause a lot of discomfort.

    So, one has a vested interest in attributing the basest of motives to that foe.

    That explains the black commentators.

    De Vos is simply in denial.

  • Brett Nortje

    Pierrot – hou mooi dop.

    Daai oom gaan nog die modus vivendi oudit. Op die oomblik is sy ego nog ‘n bietjie in die pad.

    Sien jy hoeveel Afrikaanse drukgroepe daarvoor begin vra? Ons wil weet hoeveel van ons mense vermoor is sedert 1994.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    ” …That explains the black commentators.”

    How do you explain Dmwangi’s ungrateful rejection of Pierre’s hand of self-mortification? Are you suggesting that Dmwangi is in denial of his own BLACKISHNESS?

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 11, 2012 at 19:54 pm
    @ Brett

    ” …That explains the black commentators.”

    How do you explain Dmwangi’s ungrateful rejection of Pierre’s hand of self-mortification? Are you suggesting that Dmwangi is in denial of his own BLACKISHNESS?’

    Yes, how do you massage that fact into your ideological propaganda? Perhaps because I’m dedicated to the truth even when that means it doesn’t immediately confer any political benefits or sub-rational satisfaction??

  • sirjay jonson

    So now I’ve read the comments Prof. I must say SAfricans are one sensitive lot of folk. My opinion, as worthless as it may be, is that you, SAfricans, are so hurt (on all sides) that you can’t see or think straight; you can’t see the tree for the forest (and no, I don’t have that backwards).

    One of my mother’s favorite stories, bless her departed soul, was about another mother who was watching a public military march at the beginning of the 2nd world war. Her son, who she was obviously obsessed with, he being the child of her womb, was in a squad and was the only one marching out of step.

    Raising her arms and dancing about she explained in a loud voice to who all who would listen, ‘my son, my son, look, he’s the only one in step.’

    F@#k, when will you all get over this s%*t?

  • sirjay jonson

    South Africa: get over it! The issue is not apartheid, not de Klerk, why do you cling to that so fiercely? Is it a poor me issue? Bullshit! This is 2012 for Gad’s sake. The real issue is the corruption of our (well I hesitate to call it a government) elite parasites.

    My many Indian elders, that is north american aboriginal Indian Elders, who I might add are deeply respected in the norther hemisphere, would calmly respond as follows to these sort of controversies: ‘all of us, our blood is red, thus we are all brothers, all within the same circle, get used to it.” What does that tell you?”

    Everyone I know here in this magnificent country is interacting with every pigmentation under SAfrican skies, within every SAfrican culture, and I see no problems except where the interactions are criminal… it is the self serving self advancing political parasites who are making this an issue, this racist bugalaloo.

    Live and let live…

    Viva South Africa.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mike Ambassador
    May 11, 2012 at 19:43 pm

    Hey Mike,

    “they see no future for themselves”.

    Nothing wrong with people moving to where ever they see a future for themselves.

    Don’t believe Helen Zille that people who move are necessarily “refugees”.

    Dmwangi moved here from somewhere else – one day he’ll be brave enough to tell us where that is – to create employment, impress WHITE people, exceed the speed limit on the M5 with his M3, seduce his gardener and more.

    Sirjay moved here from Canada – to save us from ourselves, teach us South African history and other good stuff.

    On the other hand our beloved JR left for heaven – Manley, Australia.

    It is interesting though that while your children are getting an education in South Africa which will hold them in good stead elsewhere, they see nothing good and bright for their future in SA.

    p.s. Thanks for the concern about my kids who are pretty well adjusted – they have learned from an early age that they must deal with life as it rolls out, that it’s not always fair, sometimes it goes against them, sometimes in their favour.

    Luckily they take it as it comes and they deal with it – and they are happily South African and they recognise that they have a role to play in making South Africa a better place if it is to be one.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 20:00 pm

    Dm,

    “I’m dedicated to the truth”

    Pah!

    That’s a lie.

  • Republican

    I have no love towards F.W. de Klerk but i will defend him this time. De Klerk basically said that Apartheid was wrong but that the concept of a nation-states is not wrong. Nation States, in the European context, means a country with a common identity devoloped over time. This common identity sometimes means that one language or ethnicity dominates the state or geographical area in terms of demographics. There is exeptions like Switzerland and the former Yogoslavia.

    In a nut shell: There is nothing wrong with a free and independent state where one culture dominates like in Sweden, Ireland and Austria. Thus there is nothing wrong when a nation like Botswana, where Tswana’s dominate, wants to stay independent and govern themselfs. The concept of sovereignty comes to mind.

    De Klerk thus said that there was nothing wrong with the concept of homelands in principle…accept that the people wasnt in favour of it due to many reasons like the small amount of land and weak economy for example.

    This peace is thus nonsense and Pierre De Vos et al should calm down…..

  • Republican

    Sorry….This writing is thus nonsense and Pierre De Vos et al should calm down.

  • sirjay jonson

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 18:04 pm
    ‘Pierre De Vos
    May 7, 2012 at 8:07 am
    I have always thought the “moral fabric of society” is something one uses to make a wedding dress out of.’

    Dm, you made my evening. many thanks. You lightening up man.

  • sirjay jonson

    @Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go! (I agree, but worry that Molanthe has ANCYl debts)
    May 11, 2012 at 20:31 pm

    “Sirjay moved here from Canada – to save us from ourselves, teach us South African history and other good stuff.”

    Well actually Maggs, I moved here for a rather hot SAfrican woman, heaven forbid I try to teach SAfricans anything… you guys appear to know everything.

  • sirjay jonson

    Maggs Naidu –
    May 11, 2012 at 20:31 pm

    “I moved here (actually) for a rather hot SAfrican woman…”

    Have you experienced one recently? Somewhat enlightening, and very much so very pleasurable. Think Charlise, if you have any doubts.

  • sirjay jonson

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 11, 2012 at 20:31 pm

    “p.s. Thanks for the concern about my kids who are pretty well adjusted – they have learned from an early age that they must deal with life as it rolls out, that it’s not always fair, sometimes it goes against them, sometimes in their favour.

    Luckily they take it as it comes and they deal with it – and they are happily South African and they recognise that they have a role to play in making South Africa a better place if it is to be one.”

    This is the first posted comment you have made which reveals you are a caring human SAfrican. Good on you. I’ll deal with you in future with much less suspicion and satire.

    As for South Africa being a better place, produced by our children, your children, no question, its a given.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Dmwangi moved here from somewhere else – one day he’ll be brave enough to tell us where that is – to create employment, impress WHITE people, exceed the speed limit on the M5 with his M3, seduce his gardener and more.’

    Yep. Kenyan bred but inhabited various other places around the globe prior to settling here. And you forgot the most important reason: to be with my utterly amazing, one-of-a-kind wife.

  • Peter John

    So Pierre, do you think for a moment the average German doesn’t consider himself superior – at least in certain ways – to the average Greek? Does that make the German a racist? And if it does, so what of it? Does that make it wrong for the German to want to be governed by Germans and not Greeks? Does that make it wrong for him to want Germany to be for Germans – and not Greeks?

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Peter John. Indeed! And do the Greeks want to be governed by Germans? Clearly not.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Have you experienced one recently? Somewhat enlightening, and very much so very pleasurable. Think Charlise, if you have any doubts.’

    I’m glad he said Charlise. Sirjay trying to handle an African queen would be like a cow directing a bull. Wouldn’t work. Divorce would be the inevitable outcome.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 21:18 pm

    Dm,

    “And you forgot the most important reason: to be with my utterly amazing, one-of-a-kind wife.”

    Ah ha – you rascal!

    Finally the truth outs.

    You’re welcome – but only one, eh, nevermind all that yarn you hear about UBUNTU!

    p.s. Be careful not to introduce your wife to Pres Zuma, especially since he’s got such pressing needs!

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Ah ha – you rascal!

    Finally the truth outs.

    You’re welcome – but only one, eh, nevermind all that yarn you hear about UBUNTU!

    p.s. Be careful not to introduce your wife to Pres Zuma, especially since he’s got such pressing needs!’

    Never said I came for any other reason.

    No worries. I support your right to polygamy but my wife is more than enough to satisfy me. No way JZ could handle my lady– she’s wicked clever. They are not even close to physical or intellectual equals; not in same universe actually. Imagine the highest ideal of a woman, then think of something even more magnificent, and you still haven’t grasped even an iota of how wonderful she is.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    As an Afrikaner, and a genetically programmed spawn of FW De Klerk I unequivocally and unconditionally endorse what FW De Klerk said on CNN (even when I am sober).

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 22:35 pm

    Dm,

    “Imagine the highest ideal of a woman”

    Hmmmm – would that be the Virgin Mary, Mother Theresa or Helen Zille?

    Mrs Ples???

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “Racism – the fear and hatred of black South Africans by white South Africans born out of a sense of imperious superiority – was the very reasons for the creation and enforcement of apartheid”

    You must be fucking kidding. One of the main reasons I keep posting on you amusing blog is how you keep reaffirming that racist notions with endless diatribes and conspiracy theories about the corrupt and irremediably unconstitutional primitive African Zulu boy manipulated ANC government.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Hmmmm – would that be the Virgin Mary, Mother Theresa or Helen Zille?’

    Aim higher.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    So what we know about De Vos. He doesn’t like de Klerk, he fucking certainly don’t like Zuma. The only thing he likes is a good night with his black boyfriend in a truly nonracial nightclub in upper town Cape Town.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 22:58 pm

    “Aim higher.”

    Angie Motshega?

  • johan

    You would think that people who continue to vote for a Political Party (ANC) who are dismally failing them and daily rushing South Africa headlong into a failed state status would understand why Afrikaners may want to rule themselves. Are Blacks racist for voting for a black party simply because they are black because surely after 18 years of an ever deepening downward spiral there is sufficient evidence that they are not working for the country. Thus logic would dictate that it must be an affinity thing. Not so? They simply want what most people groups on earth want and that is to be sovereignly able to rule themselves warts and all.
    This Rainbow Nation myth has long been exposed for the propaganda that it truly was. Let’s all go our separate ways, rule ourselves and co-operate as neighbours. Everybody happy. This the position of our constitution, the Unit Nations and International Law.

  • Republican

    I see Mazibuko from the DA also laid an egg today regarding De Klerk. Will read her nonsense on the DA website.

    What is it that these people dont understand about De Klerk’s comments. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to get it. Education in international politics and international law might help the people to understand. De Klerk’s statements ragarding nation-states and prety normal. Even the UN charter makes provision for sovereignty and the right of self-determanation of nation-states.

    The “rainbow nation” creates idiots…..

  • Bhagat Singh

    @ Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    Well said the ‘tea girl’ is so brain washed she does not see the puppet strings attached to her limbs.

    @Pierre De Vos
    Sorry Prof. The DA just does not get it!

    Prof. De Vos:

    On another point. The UN declared apartheid a crime against humanity. And if someone denies this in South Africa, like FW, can he be held legally accountable?
    I am sure that our Constitution and laws are liberal enough to make this possible.
    Is this not a form of ‘hate speech’?

    What could be the possible charges? This is akin to denying the Holocaust in Israel!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    johan
    May 11, 2012 at 23:22 pm

    This Rainbow Nation myth has long been exposed for the propaganda that it truly was. Let’s all go our separate ways, rule ourselves and co-operate as neighbours.

    I must admit the Orania propaganda was much more enticing. So many successes and so little to show besides the OK and petrol station between Hopetown and Petrusville.

  • Dmwangi

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 11, 2012 at 23:08 pm
    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 22:58 pm

    “Aim higher.”

    Angie Motshega?

    Er, I guess our notions of ‘ideal’ are different. To each his own– so long as there is sexual complementarity. Have at it my dear Maggs.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Bhagat Singh
    May 11, 2012 at 23:35 pm

    I guess if Julius Malema didn’t have a house in multi-million dollar Sandton.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    johan
    May 11, 2012 at 23:22 pm

    Well said Johan,

    “Let’s all go our separate ways, rule ourselves and co-operate as neighbours.”

    Where you gonna go to?

    Marion Island?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Bhagat Singh
    May 11, 2012 at 23:35 pm

    “The UN declared apartheid a crime against humanity.”

    Lets face it the UN are a bunch of long bygone useless fuck-nuts. They couldn’t stop the genocide in Rwanada, they couldn’t stop the invasion of Iraq, nor could they stop the deliberate and calculated occupation and annexation of Palestine.

  • Brett Nortje

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=171555

    EDITORIAL: Mdluli probe is a classic red herring
    What is the use of directing the state law adviser to investigate police intelligence chief Richard Mdluli’s vague and frankly implausible claims of a conspiracy to oust him?

    Published: 2012/05/11 07:51:14 AM

    THE glue that holds a country together and allows it to progress despite sharp differences of ideology and opinion in the body politic is trust in each other’s bona fides as fellow citizens. Nelson Mandela and FW de Klerk managed to mix up a pot of trust before 1994 despite having little in common politically, and the supply held things together for much of the next decade.

    But the glue started to dissolve towards the end of Thabo Mbeki ’s presidency when it became clear that state institutions were being used against political opponents both within and outside the African National Congress (ANC). The small reserve of trust in our leaders has been all but washed away under President Jacob Zuma .

    That is why Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa ’s announcement on Wednesday that crime intelligence head Richard Mdluli is to be moved to another division pending the outcome of a probe into allegations of a conspiracy against him, has been met not with relief but with widespread cynicism. Few South Africans — not even loyal members of the ANC and senior government officials — have sufficient trust in the executive, or belief in the bona fides of Mr Zuma and the loyal lieutenants he has surrounded himself with, to believe Mr Mthethwa has acted in their best interests.

    Why would they? This administration has shown time and again that its primary concern is not for the wellbeing of SA and all of its people, nor even for those who voted for it and to whom it has promised so much, but for protecting Mr Zuma and clinging to power.

    Mr Zuma is so hopelessly compromised politically that he is paralysed as a president. SA cannot progress either socially or economically under his leadership because he is so beholden to particular factions of the party with diametrically opposing interests, that he dare not govern. Critical decisions are deferred indefinitely to avoid offending anyone, and when things reach crisis point and action becomes unavoidable, the path of least resistance and maximum personal political gain is invariably chosen.

    There is a mountain of serious allegations against Lt-Gen Mdluli, including murder, fraud, gross abuse of power and blatant political bias. He is, of course, entitled to the benefit of doubt while these are investigated, but that assumes the political will exists to ensure a proper investigation takes place.

    Given the powers he has wielded and the seriousness of the allegations against him, simply shifting him out of the limelight where he can continue to pull the strings of the state security apparatus and intimidate colleagues who may testify against him, is unacceptable.

    If prosecutor Glynnis Breytenbach, who was intent on charging Lt-Gen Mdluli, can be suspended without explanation, in effect halting the legal process, then he can and should be suspended too. What is the use of directing the state law adviser to investigate Lt-Gen Mdluli’s vague and frankly implausible claims of a conspiracy to oust him? This is a classic red herring, especially since the far more serious accusations he faces are not being treated with the same urgency.

    The outcome of the Mdluli debacle has potentially far-reaching consequences for our democracy, yet getting to the truth has been left to an inquest by a magistrate, a narrowly defined investigation by the inspector-general of intelligence, which may never see the light of day when it is completed, and now a probe by the state law adviser.

    If ever there was justification for the instigation of a full judicial inquiry, this is it.

    The reason Mr Mthethwa and Mr Zuma are so reluctant to expose this sorry saga to sunlight is clear — Lt-Gen Mdluli is one of the chosen few, a man to whom the credibility and independence of vital state institutions such as the police service mean nothing.

    As long as he remains on side he knows he will be protected.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘On another point. The UN declared apartheid a crime against humanity. And if someone denies this in South Africa, like FW, can he be held legally accountable?
    I am sure that our Constitution and laws are liberal enough to make this possible.
    Is this not a form of ‘hate speech’?’

    Yep. This is modern liberalism: censor illiberal speech in the name of liberalism. Brilliant!

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 23:42 pm

    Awwww – you’re sulking!

    That’s unlike you.

    Eish, I lie – it’s just like you!

  • Brett Nortje

    Shaddup! I think mwangi’s been pretty damn impressive tonight.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 12, 2012 at 0:05 am

    Shaddup yourself!

    Even if I don’t agree with Dm, I more often than not find him impressive.

    But I do admire him in that he is the only oke here who will openly brag about his wife – unlike you who will brag about your pigeon, Henrietta, and your Mshini Wam and Dworky who will brag about his duck, Matilda (unless those are your respective wives :P )

    p.s. How’s your nani?

  • Seb

    Always wanted to know what those intellectuals and academics at “Moscow on the Hill” talked about at their cocktail parties and soirees……..

    You people need to get real jobs and start doing real work.

    I am so tired of this shit!

  • khosi

    Vuyo
    May 11, 2012 at 17:12 pm

    Lest we dispute the semantics of word shame, what you said is exactly what I mean. 100 percent agreed.

    It cannot be easy to accept that your whole life is based on the suppression and pillaging of others. That what you are, is the kid whose life is better than the other kids because your parent robbed or killed the parents of the other kids.

    Shame, I think, becomes a dominant catalyst for such aberrational behavior. I think it is the only way many people like De Klerk get to live day to day. Such behavior is the only drug they choose to take for their condition. I just think it would be far easier for De Klerk and his ilk to accept their fate and start acting in a manner that will spare their grandchildren the same dose of shame. And their grandchildren can then be able to say ‘Yes my great grandfather messed up but my grandfather and father helped to fix it’.

    But I do have faith that we (all races) will get it right, as difficult as it may be. People like Pierre de Vos come for the same community as De Klerk. And who can forget people like Oom Beyers Naude and many others, imminent and ordinary.

    So it is not all doom, I think.

  • Antoine van Gelder

    Liewe Pierre,

    Ek moet altyd so blerrie hard dink elke keer as ek jou lees so dankie vir dit.

    So ek stem uiters met jou gevoelens oor onse bliksemse mense en hul bevloekte fokken rasisme, maar dit voel amper vir my half asof FW hier ‘n groter situasie probeer beskryf.

    …I’ve said also publicly, morally reprehensible. But the concept of
    giving as the Czechs have it and the Slovaks have it, of….

    “Maar dis om te sê dat hierdie konsep, hierdie konsep om te gee soos die Czechs en Slovaks dit het, dat die konsep van twee groep mens met ‘n geskiedenis vol pein en geweld, saam besluit dat ‘n onderdrukte groep met sy eie kultuur en taal kan gelukkig wees in sy eie land en haar toekoms op sy eie terme besluit, hierdie is nie a bose konsep nie…”

    Dit was nie so lank gelede toe Afrikaners onderdruk was.

    Van alle Suid Afrikaanse groepe, kan ons miskien die beste verstaan…

    …wat dit gaan vat voor jy weer veilig voel.

  • Henri Le Riche

    Pierre You say:” When we confront the virus of racism that pumps through our veins because we happen to be white, we have to admit that we are not superior to anyone and, in fact, we become, at least, as morally tainted as everyone else, but probably morally far inferior to black South Africans…”

    As a white Afrikaner I can say I’ve never seen myself as superior to someone else. Many of my country men has been brainwashed to hate each other. My wife isn’t even white. That there was Afrikaners thinking of them as superior, is the truth, but i don’t think it helps to say all Afrikaners were like that. If I am tainted with negative human traits as thinking im superior, and I can admit to it, Then black South African’s should admit to their human trait as racists too. Especially in the new South Africa. It was Malcolm X who said, in order to be racist, you have to be in power.

    Funny how black racism is ignored with a black government in power. If only white people are capable of racism, and black people are not, then that means black people are, as you say, morally superior to white people. If that is the case, then many of us are preparing ourselves for black supremacy. When you are incapable of certain human traits, you start thinking you’re special. You are starting to sound like a black nationalist/supremacist Pierre.

    I couldn’t help to think what this man had to say about how certain people are used, then shot –
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeMZGGQ0ERk

    PS. Pierre, were you at the recent ANC “cool-aid” party to whoo Afrikaners? That would explain this article. Sounds like propaganda. Not much neutrality in your article. Sounds like you’re selling something….

  • Henri Le Riche

    @Dmwangi – You are absolutely correct. This is typical of leftist racism. Treating black people as children, rather than intelligent equals. And Hating other whites, by stereotyping a whole ethnic group by tainting them as racists, in order to control their thought by guilt.

    Leftist racism has been denied for too long. And this is a good example of how leftist racism use race to divide people on issues of race, rather than allowing people to stand together on issues of morality and values no matter what your colour. The world all over is waking up that we’ve been “dooped” for too long. We see through the tactic of “conquer and divide” by leftist racist tactics.

    There is nothing wrong with having, and being proud of your ethnic origin, within under a bigger umbrella of a world nation. Marxists hate identity and they want one big melting pot in order to control the populace.

  • Jacques

    Intussen blaas Jacob Zuma die volksmoord op Afrikaners aan met sy volksmoordlietjie “Shoot the Boer, shoot to kill”.

    Die vlaag van swart-op-wit haatgeweld is die beste bewys dat Afsonderlike Ontwikkeling moreel regverdigbaar was en nog steeds is.

  • Brett Nortje

    khosi says:
    May 12, 2012 at 3:26 am

    You exemplify bullshitting oneself but there is a huge amount of it under this blog. From Pierre it is to be expected but it is unexpected that Amanpour is so thick. Did she do ANY homework?

    Show a little integrity: Tell us about a woman name Marike and all the others like her. Don’t stop at 1994 – nothing much has changed since 1652.

    You ought to lie on your shoulder and clap your hands as De Klerk passes by.

  • Brett Nortje

    Henri Le Riche says:
    May 12, 2012 at 5:03 am

    No, he’s trying to wreck something….

    He couldn’t be honest about last year’s burning issue either – dispossession of land.

  • khosi

    Brett Nortje
    May 12, 2012 at 6:32 am

    khosi says:
    May 12, 2012 at 3:26 am

    The fact that the numbers on the respective time stamp are rotated one tick to the left, is the only thing worth noting about the post at 6:32 am.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Henri Le Riche
    May 12, 2012 at 5:03 am

    “As a white Afrikaner I can say I’ve never seen myself as superior to someone else.”

    You must understand PdV (or Prof Chameleon) doesn’t like it when other people speak on his behalf. You need to understand the deeply entrenched Afrikaner, Judeo-Christian concept of Collective Guilt and Original Sin. Yet Pierre probably comes from the Afrikaner upper class, he has said before that he looks down on poor Whites (luckily he doesn’t use words like White trash yet) because they couldn’t take advantage of Apartheid to properly buy into their genetically inherited guilt.

  • Jacob Mouw

    Sien Herman Giliomee se Nuwe Geskiedenis van Suid-Afrika. Premier en sielkundige Dr Verwoerd het swartmense definitief as gelyke mense gesien. So ook Dr Malan in een van sy toesprake oor menslike broederskap onder die Vader. FW de Klerk bly by hierdie geskiedkundige feite van Suid-Afrika. Afsonderlike ontwikkelling, Bantoe-onderwys en Bantoe-behuising: daardie beleide was gebasseer op die menswaardigheid van Bantoes in ‘n beskawing. Bantoe beteken mense. Giliomee en De Klerk hou daarby, en beide is baie belangrike persone, veral FW as oud-Staatspresident en Nobelpryswenner het baie gesag en verkry baie publisiteit met sy uitsprake. Wat hy nou gese het, sal vir altyd op rekord wees. Hy gaan waarskynlik nog ‘n boek ook publiseer. Hy weier om as Afrikanerleier die morele hoe grond ooit prys te gee.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    it is time for Afrikaners to wake up and smell the roses. You are being MANIPULATED big time. These hypocritical, corrupt unscrupulous bastards are playing you like a fiddle. Just read the news to understand what is happening. Ask yourself why you/your kids must continue to feel guilty about Apartheid when you are not in government anymore, when the Nats gave up power voluntarily almost 20 years ago now, when you work hard and pay your taxes into the democratically elected government and continue to invest and contribute to your country.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    khosi
    May 12, 2012 at 3:26 am

    Go and fix the orgy of greed, culture of self-enrichment, rampant corruption and sanctioned incompetence. Then Brother, you can come back and preach to me about white guilt.

  • http://n/a Emperor

    It seems what a lot of people fail to realise is that the system of apartheid was just that, a system of separate (apart) development. The White minority had long since realised something that has been scientifically proven over and over again, and that is that african intelligence is far inferior compared to that of any other race on earth. The funny part is that most liberals and black conscienceness movements always deny this in the face of scietific fact. If this was not the case, then Africa would have lost it’s status as the dark continent decades ago. The problem however is that every single african who ever learnt to read or write, thinks that they are indeed “clever” enough to run a country. In their book, “IQ and the wealth of Nations”, Dr. Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland, and Dr. Tatu Vanhanen, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Tampere, Tampere, Finland, state that the wealth of a nation of directly proportionate to the intelligence of it’s people. This explains Africa like no other research has ever done. This explains why Africa is constantly BEGGING for money from European WHITE nations even though they ran whites out of every single colony in Africa. This explains why only the rulers of African countries, as is the case with South Africa as well, are the only people living in luxury whilst the rest of the people are dying of hunger. This also explains why the ANC can win every single election, since their general supporters are so inconceivable superstitious that just one threat of using a “witchdoctor” can turn and entire nation to vote for them. Then lastly, it also explains African’s natural aversion to logical subjects such as maths and science. Keep in mind that these are people who had absolutely no written history before the white colonisers showed up. They had no written language, but had developed a language that lends itself to distance communication. They had no proper buriel ceremonies, instead opting to discard of dead bodies in the veld to avoid attracting wild animals. Now, tell me how you rob these people of 10 000 years of social and cultural evolution and then expect them to be every bit as smart as you are, it is impossible. New forms of education had to be introduced in the apartheid years to accomodate these people and their lifestyles. Unfortunately, apartheid was a failure as we did not take into account their obsession and primeval drive for sex. We thought we could take them from their savage culture and teach them the values and inherent strenghts of smaller families. Again we failed in the face of their savage culture where everybody intimidates somebody else. African is the number one example of the failure of social engineering. These are a people not ready for the 21st century or the world out there. Apartheid was a failure, not because it was a system based on race, but because we did not take into account their total lack of intelligence. Now we are continueing with racist reforms, where whites are paying more taxes than blacks, where black-on-white racism is acceptable and blacks deny the fact that they are racist. Blacks are being put into positions of power within companies, not because of their intelligence, not because they did well at university, but because they are black. You would think that a person would rather be put into a position by means of merrit as that person would be proud of what they had achieved, but it does not work like that here in Africa. In Africa you can be considdered uttely useless, and still get a position as a CEO or even a president, just because you are black. You can ruin a company because of your lack of intelligence, and then blame it on apartheid instead of your own stupidity. The whites of this country are being blamed for so called “crimes against humanity” at the behest of blacks. A more arduent question thus remains, who built Africa? The colonisers or the Africans. When van Riebeeck arrived in Africa, was everything already built by the ANC and their supporters or was it nothing more than vacant land?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Emperor
    May 12, 2012 at 8:29 am

    “The White minority had long since realised something that has been scientifically proven over and over again, and that is that african intelligence is far inferior compared to that of any other race on earth.”

    Do you include white Africans like the Boers/Afrikaners in that bizarrely racist remark? The Nats were just another example of an authoritarian, failed and corrupt African government – nothing more, nothing less.

  • Hayden Eastwood

    Allow me to translate:

    Hi black guys, I’m on your side. I’m not like the other whites, I’m a nice white. When you start taking from them, remember to leave me out. Also, remember that I should keep my job while they should lose theirs.

    Hey, you black elite fellows there at the back, I promise to beat the drum about whiteness and not bring up your blatant theft of democracy, jobs, health and education from the same poor blacks you claim to represent. In fact every time a white guy brings that up, I’ll just tell him that he’s picking on you because you’re black.

    The trouble with white people is that they’re white.

    If white people hadn’t come to South Africa then black people would all be driving round in Mercedes Benz’s, saying, “Hello my Black brother, let me lend you my flat screen television.” (After all, wealth is not something that is created through economic systems, education, planning and hard work, but something that has always been there.)

    If white people don’t agree with me, then they hate themselves.

  • Sebastian Miguel

    Not to sound dramatic, but who cares about what De Klerk says? Who cares if racism is still rampant here?

    It may come as a surprise, but there are FAR bigger problems SA has to face than racism. And to any of you who will try to blame racism for all of our problems, that is a luxury you have only because you fall in the demographic constraints of a fortunate South African (black, white,coloured, Indian no matter what).

    If I had no toilet, no access to running water, excessive exposure to toxic chemicals from abandoned mines, constant fear from crime and had to fight for food, I would not give two shits about racism. Racism has caused the aforementioned inequalities, but greed and corruption perpetuate them. Black on black crime is far more rampant than any cross-racial injustices today.

    So stop with this superfluous argument regarding the past. It pales in comparison to our current socio-economic problems.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Emperor

    “[Blacks] had no written language, but had developed a language that lends itself to distance communication”

    You mean blacks invented Twitter? With respect, this seems most unlikely. What is your source?

    That quibble aside, it is obvious that you have a keen grasp of basic LOGIC. You should write a book, and perhaps address a lecture series on political economy I am hosting at the Mill Park Holiday Inn in August.

    Thanks a lot.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 12, 2012 at 9:00 am

    Hey Dworky,

    “You mean blacks invented Twitter?”

    Did you know that Dmwangi invented the Stargate? His wife lives in another universe.

    Our Chief Justice invented a lot of things too. Ok maybe not things but lots of tall tales – like “god appointed me boss of everyone”.

    And OB invented – no wait, OB didn’t invent anything. He was invented by a mad, evil scientist with a wicked sense of humour!

    Mdluli is also in the inventing state, sorta like Hansie – “Whites made me do it!”

  • Mike Ambassador

    LOL @ Hayden Eastwood

  • Mike Ambassador

    But on a serious note still none of the esteemed bloggers here have posted a practical answer on what blacks want from from white. So I must assume they are like s spoilt child, don’t know what they want and won’t be happy till they get it. Maybe our democracy is not a 18 year old teenager but a petulant 3 year old in a sand pit fighting over sand.

    @ Maggs, glad your children are fine, I sincerly hope they have a functioning SA to grow up and get old in, as for my kids I will miss them very much, however I cannot trust the poor / corrupt leadership of SA with there precious future.

    As for me I am to old to go anywhere so will have to just sit it out and be accepting of whatever comes my way in SA.

  • Francois

    Mooi geskryf…maar dis nie waar nie, Pierre.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Emperor
    May 12, 2012 at 8:29 am

    Hey Emperor,

    “The White minority had long since realised something that has been scientifically proven over and over again, and that is that african intelligence is far inferior compared to that of any other race on earth.”

    So true – I also read that. It’s kinda like what FW de Klerk was saying too – so it must be right.

    “The funny part is that most liberals and black conscienceness movements always deny this in the face of scietific fact” – yeah, it’s very funny. But they don’t know what we know, especially since it has been scientifically proven that african intelligence is far inferior.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mike Ambassador
    May 12, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Hey Mike,

    “@ Maggs, glad your children are fine, I sincerly hope they have a functioning SA to grow up and get old in”

    Thanks for your concern – it seems like you’ve acquired UBUNTU.

    Here’s the really strange thing – the South Africa we experience is really wonderful. We’ve got good water and sanitation, electricity, telecoms, food, entertainment, educational facilities, health care, beaches, parks, zoos, Gautrain, roads and a whole lot more. We get superb service from the various government departments including the SAPS, the traffic department, Home Affairs, Education at the very least. Employment and business opportunities have been very good for us at the level we need it to be.

    It’s most unfortunate for you and yours that you’ve been so discriminated against – if I were to have the experiences you have, I would also be cheesed off and I would want to emigrate (OB made a suggestion that I fuck off to India to be with 1.2 billion other coolies which I would have considered if life was a hell-hole for me and mine as it is for you and yours – but that’s only because his son sucks at cricket :P ).

    Maybe we’re just darn lucky that we have been selected for the unique and special experience we have.

    Thank the LORD!

  • Mike Ambassador

    @ Maggs, I grew up in Butterworth so know Ubuntu very well.

    Let me tell you my story in 1978 the NP government came and took my families business, “compensated’ us (what a joke that was – much like the ANC today!!! not!!!) and gave it all to the Transkei developement trust. We then had to leave and settled in PE.

    When ANC came into power we tried to make a land claim (My Grandfather kept all the title deeds, etc) …… again what a joke that process was (anyway it was denied – lawyer wanted R1bar to take the case further!!!!!) ……….. so forgive my disapointment and lack of trust in governments. Hence I am not going to trust my kids future in this country.

    The sad part is in 2007 I went back to Butterworth (on route to Durban) and went to the house I grew up in …… to quote Malema ….she is broken!! nothing but a shell. The main road does not go into the town anymore …… just a lot of broken memories of what once was such a beautiful and vibrant town.

    So I have to ask where is my Ubuntu???

  • Francois

    Oeps..ek ek druk “post Comment” voordat ek comment.
    Hier is heelwat geskryf in Afrikaans en dis interessant dat komentare op Afrikannse kommentare, afwesig is. Is dit uit asprisgeit, of bloot dat die wat in Afrikaans kommentaar nie aangevat kan word of nie verstaan word nie?
    In that event, possibly, it remains an option to rather comment in Engish and to attempt to be understood. It is my opinion, with respect, that Apartheid was born, not due to a believe of superiority, but rather inferiority as it provided some guarantee to its supporters. But the same can be said about the support to the ANC, even more so as it also has a history of not tolerating opposition in its own organisation which has been proven to result in the most awesome of action having taken by its enforcers i.e. the necklace burning. In addition the culture of the black man further enforces fear of believes in for example witchdoctors and the tokolosh.
    Pre 1994 was obviously purely white domination as blacks could not participate in its own politics and this changed post 1994. However, what the ANC never took into consideration was to ensure proper participation by those who can be considered as the “golden duck”. Instead of feeding the duck, the duck is “cut-open” in the hope for more?
    “Superiority” is a mindset and a game people play. If a beggar comes to me (and nowadays more and more whites take that route as they cannot share in the welfare give-aways to ensure governments political future) ofcourse one would feel “superior, not so? This is not a white thing – it is a human thing.
    O, I nearly forgot to say that I am classified as “white”, however, my skin has pigments more dark than others and I seemingly have been bred to tolerate the African sun better that other white skins. I believe I am reasonably intelligent, and I also believe, without having had the opportunity to study political sciences, I am in a position to submit an objective view. I am in my own business, a small business having been in existence since 1994! For heaven’s sake – I am a whitey that started a business when the political changes occurred. I remember clearly, when I approached FNB at that time for an overdraft facility, Mr Smit in charge of that portfolio, telling me I must read my mind to start a business at that time! I have always had a majority of black people employed until today (having been directed Pierre by you, to think this way).
    So, I SOLD MY HOUSE FOR WORKING CAPITAL, and I am still in business. If SARS can keep of my back and treat my reasonably and fair, I would be able to employ mush more PEOPLE (possibly black if they are willing to work?)
    This is therefore a short story of a person, a person with confidence, and therefore a person, seemingly being seen with an attitude of “superiority” and therefore a WHITE person being a racist? Jou moer, my broer.
    I have been able to make a living, without having to run away to others with a same skin color, to protect me or to guarantee me a life. Whoever is politically in charge and negatively effects me, I will defend by way of my constitutional rights – an expensive hobby, if I may add. My daughter has been born in Bophuthatswana. Mmy left ahnd neighbours, were a Black man married to a white (blond, I may add) woman and the children my daughter grew up with, were Batswana.
    Mu daughter finalises her LLB degree, cum laude, and because she is white, she could not yet find employment. Three year of waste.
    Having been successful in my endavours, I am employing a maid, a black woman, having 6 children all being sent to proper public schools, and sponsored, if needed. I also have a gardener. Gosh, after having read your article, I also established that they were people with black pigments.
    Whoever can say, that due to a person, having grown up without education as we have had, to be stupid? Bluntly stated, we are stupid in relation to their thoughts and culture – and thefore it makes me backwards, in that regard, not so? Here I have a number of intelligent BLACK people, making a life for themselves, by adding their skills to my business, and making me a successful person. Does this make me superior????? No, my friend.
    And is this not the crux of the whole thing? Why is the ANC a “black” party? It is their responsibility to become a “majority” party, if the DA cannot achieve this before they do – or any other political party for that matter. As long as these racist “games” endure, the weeker the ANC will become, believe you me as their ducks are being slaughtered.
    My daughter wil get employment, even if I have to assist her in creating it, which undoubtedly, I have started. She has the same self esteem to become successful, and nobody will deny that to her, and in fact, she shall become an employer of many, no thanks to any politician.
    I am a South African and I am surrounded by South Africans. I have to mention, that some humans have turned into animals with their behaviour, and put bluntly, seemingly supported to continue with murders and rape and theft. Sies man, hoe moeilik kan dit wees om so donner bymekaar te maak? Maar nee, ons moet sukkel met byvoorbeeld ‘n Mdluli? Ag nee, Zuma, jy gaan dit nie lank maak nie, my ou.
    However, I consider this portal as very valuable, and I have seen numerous valuable comments by PEOPLE here. I just believe, that with the correct frame of mind, we may still be moving in the correct direction.
    Kom ons byt vas en gaan voort.
    (I did not edit. Please overlook spelling mistakes)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 12, 2012 at 10:40 am

    “(OB made a suggestion that I fuck off to India to be with 1.2 billion other coolies which I would have considered if life was a hell-hole for me and mine as it is for you and yours – but that’s only because his son sucks at cricket :P ).”

    he he. I had hoped you would be living in Kolkata making a living selling bunny chows by now. How much you Indians (who all look the same) can do with a bit of variety in that shit-hot spicy diet.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Francois

    “what the ANC never took into consideration was to ensure proper participation by those who can be considered as the “golden duck”.

    I agree 100% But have always thought it odd that the metaphorical golden duck-victims of the ANC govt – viz WHITISH people — are better off materially now than they were under apartheid. Please help me to understand this, Francois!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mike Ambassador
    May 12, 2012 at 10:58 am

    Hey Mike,

    It cannot be government’s fault if the lawyer tried to rip you off.

    Anyway, my grandparents also lost their farm land to the “group areas” – none of us were interested in pursuing a land claim. Our families were uprooted from their property in Cato manor and the Springfield flats. Everyone just got on with their lives – most are actually doing pretty despite the then upheavals.

    There is indeed a whole lot wrong right now – but none of that makes the crap that FW de Klerk spoke correct. He tried to defend and justify the indefensible and unjustifiable despite knowing better.

    Why on earth would, for example, someone with a LLB look to government or someone else for a job? Surely with that kind of education these young people who the state spent a huge amount on to have educated should be looking to be job creators rather than job seekers.

    Apartheid in addition to all the rest that was wrong with it, created a sense of entitlement among many (which is showing up among the many comments posted here) which will take a long time to lose.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “the South Africa we experience is really wonderful. We’ve got good water and sanitation, electricity, telecoms, food, entertainment, educational facilities …”

    Maggs is right. I read somewhere that whites living even in the Eastern Cape actually “experience” really, really good educational facilities. And the good news is: Govt has apparently developed an excellent plan to “roll out” these facilities for blacks too!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Nothing to draw the White Supremacists that hounds around in packs on the Internet to a forum than a thread like this. Much like flies to a turd. However De Klerk made it very clear that Apartheid was morally repugnant and could not be defended even as early as 1970 when it become clear that the “noble intentions” were a smokescreen and that the Bantustans where a spectacular economic failure.

    But by then we were in the thick of the Cold War. At least de Klerk didn’t mention that Apartheid was supported not only by the USA but also British governments who both classified the ANC + Nelson Mandela as a terrorist organisation. No way the CNN interviewer would go there either. Perhaps De Klerk should be commended for not trying to pass the back and taking full responsibility. The same ANC richly rewarded the British government with a very lucrative arms deal for their unwavering support for Apartheid.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 12, 2012 at 11:37 am

    LOL Dworky,

    “Maggs is right. I read somewhere that whites living even in the Eastern Cape actually ‘experience’ really, really good educational facilities.”

    hehehehe – in case you haven’t noticed, I’m neither White (thank the LORD!) nor live in the EC.

    I do, though, have relatives and friends in the EC – they seem to be doing pretty ok.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    ozoneblue
    May 12, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Hey OB – you’re just jealous that we can cook (and eat at will) real food.

    I ate White people’s food recently – it’s was boiled some green stuff with boiled some cream stuff and boiled meat. It had a very fancy name. No wonder you are such a angry fellow.

    Whenever you are in Kolkata do visit me – maybe I’ll get a coolie kid to teach your son how to play cricket. (hey did you see how many of the racist White South African cricketers are playing in India’s IPL T20 and they are doing great).

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    ozoneblue
    May 12, 2012 at 11:39 am

    Well spotted OB!

    There’s hope for you yet.

    “Apartheid was supported not only by the USA but also British governments who both classified the ANC + Nelson Mandela as a terrorist organisation. No way the CNN interviewer would go there either.”

  • Francois

    MFB – “I agree 100% But have always thought it odd that the metaphorical golden duck-victims of the ANC govt – viz WHITISH people — are better off materially now than they were under apartheid. Please help me to understand this, Francois!”

    Are we??? Is it a fact or is it because it is being perceived? You see, not to go and give-in the towel, not being seen as a runaway and continue being a person who is creative, and who has the ability to influence people positively towards a common goal, does this make me better off materially? Have I accumulated more assets, that I would have accumulated under the old regime? No sir, I do not think that you are correct.
    I now surely pay more in taxes. Let me explain by way of just ONE example.

    Our Education system is in shambles and it went from bad to worse, since 1994. Last week, for example, I had the opportunity to view the school fees of an Afrikaans primary school that was R2500 per annum in 2007: R7200 in 2012. What is the definition of school fees at a pubic school? It is a levy charged and enforceable by way of legislation, not so? It is a “tax”. Just in this regard, taking into consideration, that the school fees at that particular primary school was R12.00 in 1993, see what we have to pay for.
    If this government learns how to manage their funds, I believe this will be a very lucrative “business” to run. I would suggest, since we must protect and respect lives, nothing may be wrong with an amputation of hands and fingers, in the instance of “self-help”?

    Now: taking this into consideration, what is the budget for education for this fiscal year? R100 billion??? More? I must check.

    No. Simple economics, will show you, that even if I produce more, I am being taxed out of my shoes, to enrich an incompetent bunch of politicians.

    I I have had to get a fair deal out of my economic activities, I would have agreed with you.

    On the other side of the coin. Just because I am not lazy and I work hard for my income, who should be jealous about that? Only a lazy hooligan, for which I do not have any respect, may be, not so?

    As you will note: I have not mentioned any color? Gosh, it can be done!!

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Maggs

    “We’ve got good water and sanitation, electricity, telecoms, food, entertainment, educational facilities …”

    Maggs, much depends on how inclusive the WE in your sentence is. If that word embraces the large proportion of rural blacks who live in poverty, your statement that “we” enjoy “good water and sanitation” etc might require just a few qualifications. Poor Francois, like many whites, have it exactly wrong; the great irony is that the beneficiaries of apartheid are doing even better under the ANC govt. But many of the supposed beneficiaries of the new order have seen little improvement.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “By admitting that it is impossible to be free from racism, given that we live in a world whose economic and social structures are based on the notion of white superiority, one is freed to begin to face up to one’s responsibilities and to begin to address the problem”

    What a steaming pile of horse shit. Where does China, or 80% of the world’s population, fit into that “Critical” Race Theory.

  • Mpush

    Could not said it better myself. If we had more white people of your thinking reconciliation in this country would be a breeze, and the DA would not have managed to keep the ANC for this long. Yes you heard me right, what is keeping the ANC in power is the DA, because black people will never vote for the alternative of white supremists, they would rather stick with the devil they know.

  • Francois

    “Why on earth would, for example, someone with a LLB look to government or someone else for a job? Surely with that kind of education these young people who the state spent a huge amount on to have educated should be looking to be job creators rather than job seekers.”

    MAGGS. Where do you read that my daughter or I look at Government for a job? You as well as I know, that is a hopeless suggestion, just because of skill pigmentation? And that is what I say…

    AND who paid for that education??? The Government? Is jy mal man?

    Dink, broer.

    And if I may add, some students with the same pigmentation of you, were considered less black and is in the same boat.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Michael Osborne
    May 12, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Hey Prof,

    “Maggs, much depends on how inclusive the WE in your sentence is.”

    “We”, in the context of the conversation with Mike, referred to my entire family.

    It did not relate to broader South Africa – although I reckon that it is similar for most people commenting here. And most middle class (and above) South Africans.

    The legacy of apartheid, in my view, affects mainly poor African people.

  • Francois

    Michael: “Poor Francois, like many whites, have it exactly wrong; the great irony is that the beneficiaries of apartheid are doing even better under the ANC govt. But many of the supposed beneficiaries of the new order have seen little improvement.”

    Now since you are so smart, Michael. In the world we live in, the people I employ as for example my maid, has had no education and she is in a situation, where she can say that she ensured that her children gets a decent education.

    What is the suggestion here? Should I take everything, give it to her, and ask her for a job?

    or should I have the attitude, which may not be wrong constitutionally, begin considering my whiteness, and only appoint whiteys??

    Come on, you are smart. Tell me.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Francois
    May 12, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Francois – the cost of tuition is a fraction of the cost of running an educational institution.

    I don’t know any “students with the same pigmentation of” me who are in the same boat. Anyway – I won’t entertain people “with the same pigmentation as me” who are that well qualified moaning about not being able to be gainfully employed. If all else fails there’s always driving a mini-bus taxi.

  • Michael Osborne

    Francois, I think that you and other whites who see themselves as struggling victims of the new order (cooked geese, or “ducks,” in you case), need to consult some stats. For example:

    “The average African household lost 19% of its real income since 1995, while average white household income grew by 15%.”

    http://www.socialwatch.org/node/10861

  • Jgomes

    Hold the f*!* on !!

    What did De Klerk do wrong? He gave the Black people what they wanted , the POWER of the country , what his predecessors did shouldn’t be blamed on him ? Or else it would be ok to blame what Zuma is doing on Mandela.Now let’s look at what Zuma is doing right now ??? Taking the more power away from(discriminating) the whites (BEE) ,so where is the RACISM???
    Is doing the same to the whites ok with the blacks?
    Racism is discriminating a specific race, and surely that is what is happening right now in South Africa with the surplus of trying to oppress / muzzle ALL South African’s with the info bill.

    COME ON and wake up I honestly think is time the whites lose whatever guilt they hold for their parents choices ,while losing the fear of confrontation , only then will this country be free and fair to all colours . Look around the black community one way or the other they are united , while we whites are too shit scared of facing our fears , we honestly need to UNITE and stand to our rights too , fighting for what we believe without bringing discrimination or racism into play .

    I hear now a days everyone being UBUNTU? Maybe is a fashion statement of some sort, well we aren’t it ,if we don’t stand to who we truly are …UNITED!

  • Francois

    Both Michael and Max

    Where does government gets its money?? Are they doing some business somewhere, that I am not aware of??

    They get their money from inter alia me, my friends, si I indeed pay for everything, ok? I did not complain that I am struggling? I only struggle with my own business affairs, in a complex system of new legislation.

    Point seemingly is this. I received this email and cannot remember from whom and I kept it:

    “Affirmative Action

    “South Africa is the only country in the world where affirmative action is in the favour of the majority who has complete political control. The fact that the political majority requires affirmative action to protect them against a 9% minority group is testament to a complete failure on their part to build their own wealth making structures, such that their only solution is to take it from others.”

    London Times”

  • Michael Osborne

    Francois, I prefer to ignore your laboured sarcasm. (That is MDF’s rather narrow speciality.)

    Where did I ever say you must donate your house to your maid and her children? My point was that whites have, relatively speaking, done better under the post-1994 regime than (African) blacks. That inconvenient truth represents a challenge equally to your reality-defying “whitish” world view, and conversely, to the position of a loyal ANC enthusiast, such as our Maggs.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 12, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    “The legacy of apartheid, in my view, affects mainly poor African people.”

    Perhaps things will change for the better if they they are not continuously told to blame all their troubles on racist White people. But I suppose we must thank the likes of PdV and his “Critical” Race [Conspiracy] Theory for that.

  • khosi

    ozoneblue
    May 12, 2012 at 8:02 am

    You obviously did not read what I wrote.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Francois
    May 12, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Francois,

    “Where does government gets its money?? Are they doing some business somewhere, that I am not aware of??”

    Clearly you are not aware of where government gets its money.

    “They get their money from inter alia me, my friends, si I indeed pay for everything, ok?”

    You and your friends might be paying a whole lot of tax but I doubt that you’re paying the R226 billion collected from “persons and individuals” for 2012/12

    Even if you were, the total government budget revenue is R757.5 billion. So your contribution will be under 30% – so no, you don’t pay for everything, not even a third.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    khosi
    May 12, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Sorry khosi I was out on the puza-puza again last night.

    That is how any self-respecting heterosexual white male deals with the shame and that racism virus that runs through his veins like a river.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Former president FW de Klerk must retract comments he made in a CNN interview, the Council for the Advancement of the SA Constitution (Casac) said on Saturday.

    “Casac condemns in the strongest terms the reckless attempts by former president FW de Klerk to justify and defend the apartheid system,” it said in a statement.

    “The very notion of ‘separate development’ was at the centre of the apartheid ideology, and was predicated on notions of racist supremacy as was Nazism.”

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/05/12/de-klerk-must-retract-comments-casac

  • Miikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “…how any self-respecting heterosexual white male deals with the shame and that racism virus that runs through his veins like a river.”

    OB, I read somewhere that Pfizer has developed a highly effective but hideously expensive drug that can drastically limit your WHITISH blood count. But for some reason, govt is denying its efficacy — and promoting “traditional African” treatments instead.

    Thanks.

  • Francois

    Dear Maggs

    Please publish your contribution, since you attempt to be a smart-ass.

    I am passionate about this country, I am passionate in making a difference. I cannot change the past, but I can contribute, and I do believe that I do, to make things better.

    I do not attempt to be a sufferer under the new dispensation. What actually occurs is quite simple:

    Undeniably, there were great business men, when things for us “whiteys” (as you persist with your racism) were basically there for the taking. Now that things are not there for the taking, we have to be creative in making opportunities. In other words, the new “whiteys” become a better “breed” or something like that, not so?

    No sir. This is reality. If you can give me a better recipe, please do so. If I comment, I am being considered sarcastic. What I tell you and which you cannot deny: I have given life to people, that this government cannot do. This government, I refer to as people with responsibility.

    Be accountable for what you do, and represent, not only the people that vote for you, but everybody as you are accountable to everybody. This is serious stuff……….it is not a game.

    We have either a future or not, and I for one, will not lower standards. NEVER>

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Miikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 12, 2012 at 13:10 pm

    LOL.

    I have my regular beeetroet smoothies just for the hangovers.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Francois
    May 12, 2012 at 13:14 pm

    Francois,

    “Please publish your contribution, since you attempt to be a smart-ass.”

    FYI I am a smart ass!

    What “contribution” are you talking about?

    In addition to being confused you sound garbled.

    Your entire tirade is falling apart cos it does not make sense.

    Calm down, drink some water and try and get to the real issue whatever that is.

    As I see it, you (and others like you) have a sense of entitlement that was nurtured and developed by the apartheid state, founded on the flawed notion that you were better than others.

    The downside of that, it seems to me, is that you are struggling to cope in a fair dispensation under our Constitutional Democracy and thus are a victim of that which de Klerk has denied.

  • Paul Kearney

    Where to start? How about de Vos’ blog title “the dark underbelly of white SA”. Silly generalisation from a professor. Then it’s the majority of white people in the world that don’t understand. These sweeping statements without a shred of proof may go unnoticed in the hair salon but from an academic’s blog? Lazy and sloppy.

    But we see a few things from de Klerk’s statement. He’s a seemingly intelligent man but still clings to a racist concept. Similar to Mbeki actually. Then that he will not give up the concept; similar to all the comments about race to day. Simply boneheaded.

    Apartheid was always going to fail as its foundations were on the shaky ground of unprincipled immorality (no pun). It took some time but fail it did. De Klerk’s sensible moment was seeing that continuing to drive the apartheid bus was going to result in disaster so he relinquished the wheel. Unfortunately the new driver applied similar racist principals to the last, so this will fail too; sooner or later. Race based legislation is not a good foundation for a country. It is wrong in principal; wriggle and squirm all you want.

    In practical terms if Lionel Messi migrated to SA (yeah right) he probably wouldn’t make the national football team as he’s too white (and should shut up and feel guilty) whereas a notional nephew of Mags’ fresh from the Mumbai U12 F cricket team could be propelled to captain the Proteas based on the lovely brown hue of his skin. You be the judge.

    Finally race always provides a fantastic excuse, red herring and smokescreen for all sorts of corruption and excess. It was true during apartheid and its true now. We should always look deeper.

  • Cor Ehlers

    Separate development, which became better known as apartheid, failed as a constitutional dispensation since it became a race issue. Our liberal and multicultural democracy is turning the whole of SA into a failed state – full stop.

    Luckily some people in the West are beginning to recognise that multiculturalism is a big farse and not sustainable in the long run: http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/multiculturalism-rip/

  • Miikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Cor

    “Separate development, which became better known as apartheid, failed as a constitutional dispensation since it became a race issue.”

    Cor is right. I much preferred the NON-RACIAL form of separate development!

    Thanks.

  • Kobus Theron

    As sick and tired as I am of the far right and their Nazi-like behaviour, there is NO WAY that I will forever keep apogizing for apartheid. There is also NO WAY that I will ever be ashamed that I am white, or keep feeling guilty until the end of days. It simply ain’t gonna happen. This De Vos character appears to give whites the blame for everything that is wrong on this planet. He’s dead wrong. He’s ignoring centuries of history and wrongdoing by other races, be they white, black, brown or yellow.

  • SkyLukeWater

    @Francois

    Pls ignore that Naidu guy, he’s old and unable to bring himself into the space where you and I are (reminds me a little of that Dave Harris guy, but with less guilt to bestow).

    @Maggs, thank you for making more and more sense every day

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Kobus Theron
    May 12, 2012 at 14:41 pm

    “This De Vos character appears to give whites the blame for everything that is wrong on this planet. He’s dead wrong.”

    It is in fact a reactionary racist ideology that goes by the name of Critical Race Theory. Needless to say invented in the USA where talking about poverty and class is a big no-no. This pile of pathetic bullshit goes through as a a serious academic pursuit, the UCT is a well-known breeding ground of this pseudo-science and it spread itself just like a fucking virus too.

    What is Critical Race Theory?

    http://spacrs.wordpress.com/what-is-critical-race-theory/

  • Dmwangi

    Are there no moderates in this country? Or does PdV’s radicalism just attract all the counter-extremists like Emperor?

    As I posted on another thread: ‘whites have no monopoly on truth, however, that does not mean there is no truth in the Western tradition.’ Blacks must learn from whites and whites must learn from blacks. Superiority/Inferiority should not be an issue as both traditional African thought and the Western tradition affirm the equal dignity of human beings. This is overwhelmingly evident to anyone who delves into the matter. I see no strain of racialist thinking in either tradition.

    What we need are ppl to seek truth wherever they can find it, learn from anyone who can teach them and be willing to embrace good ideas wherever they emanate from. As an African, I’m not going to give up breakfast if I find out the idea originated in Asia. I rather enjoy breakfast and it’s no threat to my identity or self-worth to adopt a truth that wasn’t discovered by blacks. Same should be true for whites, one would think.

    What we don’t need are simple-minded, opportunistic, antagonists who reduce complex phenomena of history, philosophy, human nature and morality to one-sentence hokum explanations– whether it’s PdV diagnosing whites as ‘inherently racist,’ Khosi claiming repressed ‘shame’ induces ‘false consciousness’ in whites or Emperor and Francois asserting the superiority of a culture/ppl based on GDP, progress in positivistic sciences, or some asinine theory of racial IQ.

  • Republican

    De Vos is gay and HIV positive if i am not mistaken. (Sorry if i am wrong). De Vos should rather focus on the problems facing our country with high HIV prevelence figures and other social en ecomical problems. I am sick and tired of this race issue. De Voa should quite his job and live in the slums. Give someone else a chance in your profession who is black. Give away all your wealth. Only then will you be taken seriously.

    Pierre, we know that you have a black lover and best of luck for the future but this and the above does not give you the right to be an idiot.

    De Klerk said that Apartheid was wrong but that the homeland was nothing wrong with the concept of homeland in a nation-state. FW supported the idea of homelands in his younger days on the basis of nation-states all over the world but he concluded taht it was not sustainabe and thus he reformed.

    What your problem with FW’s conduct is i just dont understand. The ‘anti-racist” group is actually the same as the Nazi’s. They nead “read meat” to survive. The so-called “anti-racist” has been hijacked to some extent by anti-whites and self-hating whites.

    Racist and anti-racist activist represents the same side of a coin.

  • Republican

    sorry…”red meat”

  • Torryn

    All the White Africans have ever really wanted, is to rule themselves, in their own land. That is not too much for any ethnic group or nationality to ask. The rest is racist semantics.

  • Prickly Porcupine

    As an SA expat living in Europe (and I didn’t run away, I married a Spaniard) I came accross this article via a Facebook post by a friend.
    I thought the article was so “bleeding heart liberal” bullshit that I felt the need to comment.
    But then I read all of Dmwangi’s posts and no longer need to….
    Dmwangi : Couldn’t have said it better…..I think I love you! (-:
    People, humans, homo sapiens just need to realise that racism IS being human. It’s inherent in ALL of us…we ALL want to be members of the winning team/ dominant tribe/ superior club. Is that a good thing? course not! But it’s a reality.
    GET OVER South Africans being this bunch of freakish outcasts of the human race and look in the mirror at your white/yellow/pink/black/brown/purple faces.
    I could go on, but I won’t, so back to you, Dmwangi The Wise! xx

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Torryn

    “All the White Africans have ever really wanted, is to rule themselves, in their own land. ”

    Torryn is right. That is why I renew my demand that the four suburbs in South Africa, Sandton, Rosebank, Rondebosch and Newlands, where whites are, and always have been, in a clear majority, declare their independence ASAP!

    By the same token, we must not forget that, in the 70’s, most Zulu’s, Xhosas and Tswana’s were CLAMOURING to be allowed to form their own, independent states, where they could govern themselves according to their own respective traditions. One sensed here the same nationalistic fervour as one imagine was to be felt in the streets of Prague in 1848. To that extent, De Klerk does have a point.

    Thanks.

  • sirjay jonson

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 21:18 pm

    No better awakening to the world other than travel, well apart from a truly good woman.

  • sirjay jonson

    Michael Osborne
    May 11, 2012 at 17:55 pm

    Michael, you might give the US a little slack because they fought a bloody civil war to free the slaves. Surely, that has an element which should be considered.

  • sirjay jonson

    Dmwangi
    May 11, 2012 at 21:37

    Well actually, Dm, my present partner of 12 years actually is an african queen. But you are right in one sense. She does keep me on my toes, elbows too.

  • sirjay jonson

    @Proff: if you ever doubt the value of your blog, well the comments on this one should remove any of that. Congrats. You really stir the honey, bravo.

  • joeslis

    @ Cor Ehlers:

    “… multiculturalism is a big farse”

    Sorry, Cor, but there is no such word as “farse”. Did you mean “a big fart”?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Dmwangi
    May 12, 2012 at 15:40 pm

    Hey YOU imposter!

    “Superiority/Inferiority should not be an issue as both traditional African thought and the Western tradition affirm the equal dignity of human beings.

    What did you do with our dear Dm?

    Has he been kidnapped?

    Is he alive?

    We demand to speak with him before we agree to any ransom!

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    May 12, 2012 at 15:40 pm

    Great post, dude. Almost makes one want to step out of the pit.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Joeslis. My mistake – I meant “farce”, but I suppose what you read into it may well be another suitable definition for multiculturalism.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs is right.

    The only reason Sirjay, Brett, and all the usual liberal suspects, are applauding Dmwangi is that his nasty attack on Pierre has a whiff of the dread WHITIST virus about it!

  • http://ukuveza.co.za Schalk van Heerden

    Reading through all these comments and jibes I have come to the conclusion that there is hope for South Africa. It seems to me that we are in need to shift some of the patriotism, integrity, competence and hard working people that have made some telling comments to occupy key positions in our embattled government. That should be the end of corruption and self enrichment that seems to be the order of the day. Talk is cheap however let us see you DO IT!

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Ok everyone – FW de Klerk says vote ANC!

    He urged South Africans to not vote based on ethnicity, but rather vote for a party chosen for their values and policies.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/split-anc-will-benefit-democracy-fw-1.1295126

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 12, 2012 at 19:03 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    Hmmm – maybe you have a point. My assumption was wrong.

    It did not strike me at the time that gays, rent-seeking coolies, non-traditional Africans are not human beings.

    So maybe that was Dm after all – whew it’s a relief that we don’t have to raise a ransom.

  • sirjay jonson

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 12, 2012 at 19:03 pm

    Thanks Fass: gees, being labelled a liberal from you is such a compliment. I think thats the nicest thing you commented on me to date.

  • sirjay jonson

    Meanwhile, the Stormers are doing just great, half time, don’t miss the 2nd.

  • Dmwangi

    @Maggs:

    What are you on about? These have always been my views.

    @Brett:

    Even a ‘backwards traditional African’ like myself can discern ‘bullshit’ when it is so obvious. MDF is wrong. I could not care less about appeasing whites (or anyone for that matter.) I’m propounding these views because I believe them to be true.

    My wife and I went to a charity dinner which de Klerk attended back in 2005(?). Very sharp and engaging guy. I listened to him talk politics for about two hours and I remember thinking: ‘Wow! Most of the policies he’s claiming to support could have been written by Luthuli House.’ Even on AA/BEE, he said something to the effect that he could support them so long as they had definite sunset dates and would not continue in perpetuity. He struck me as a pragmatist, not an ideologue, a persuader, tough, ruthless even– basically the epitome of a politician. He also says ‘f_ck’ more than I thought appropriate but overall I didn’t come away thinking ‘the virus of racial superiority is pumping through his veins.’

    The only thing that surprises me is that he opened himself to this kind of attack. I thought he was a shrewder politician. He should know that whenever a member of the media mentions apartheid the appropriate response is immediate disavowel, repudiation, apology, etc. It is not a time to give ‘qualified statements’ or an academic lecture about the intricacies of international law, political theory, nation-states, etc. He should know by now that it’s such an emotionally-charged issue and the media and its bedfellows (PdV) make their living ginning up controversy where none exists.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 12, 2012 at 20:06 pm

    Dm,

    “These have always been my views.”

    You needn’t worry anymore about impressing WHITE people – they are suitably impressed.

    So have you changed your views iro “the equal dignity of human beings” wrt gays and Idi Amin/”rent-seeking-Indians”, “non-traditional” Africans, forced genital mutilation of children and young people?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 12, 2012 at 20:06 pm

    Hey Dm,

    I agree with you in so far as I think that de Klerk was a courageous politician.

    In the wake of the media speculation, I waited patiently in the build up to and listened excitedly to his historical address to the apartheid parliament on 2 Feb 1990 – http://blogs.timeslive.co.za/hartley/2010/02/02/fw-de-klerks-speech-to-parliament-2-february-1990-full-text/

    It was huge and certainly a turning point in our history – the man deserves credit for doing what few others in the then corridors of power would have done, despite the continued support for the iniquity by most of the developed countries led by USA, UK, Germany, Australia among others.

    His comments on CNN though have done him no favours – it’s the kind of mindless babbling which we have come to expect from OB.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘You needn’t worry anymore about impressing WHITE people – they are suitably impressed.’

    I never have worried about this. It’s one of the keys of my success. To ‘impress’ someone is to try to manage the perception they have of you. That is a misallocation of effort. I get more satisfaction from changing the reality of the situation (i.e. producing output) than changing others’ perceptions of it (cooking the books with accounting gimmicks).

    I never said homosexuals, corrupt Indians, non-traditional Africans, or male or female initiates possess any more or less dignity and worth than anyone else. In the case of the former two, I merely said I wish they would stop those practices and behave morally. In the case of the latter two I’m not sure I ever commented pro or con. Being a non-traditional African is fine with me so long as one has taken the time to understand their culture and decided in conscience that there is no truth there to embrace. Probably the most self-constituting choices we each make is to decide which assertions we give our assent to. I’m not in the business of being the thought-police. That is PdV’s task.

    Wrt initiation rites, I think some of them can be rationally defended. However, the means by which many of them are carried out must be reformed in light of what we now know about biology, germs, etc.

    But I’m not sure what any of this has to do with PdV’s ‘bullshit’ post-modern, racial determinism?????

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    May 12, 2012 at 20:06 pm

    Iow, he should not dare to tell the truth about Apartheid….

    “He should know that whenever a member of the media mentions apartheid the appropriate response is immediate disavowel, repudiation, apology, etc.”

    and

    “He should know by now that it’s such an emotionally-charged issue and the media and its bedfellows (PdV) make their living ginning up controversy where none exists.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 12, 2012 at 20:48 pm

    Dm,

    “But I’m not sure what any of this has to do with PdV’s ‘bullshit’ post-modern, racial determinism?????”

    Nothing!

    It’s got to do with your tendency to speak “from both sides of your mouth”.

    You celebrated, encored and cheered Idi Amin’s treatment of Indians in Uganda and you spoke of Indians (all 1.2+ billion) as corrupt and rent-seeking.

    Be that as it may, make a statement that you believe that equal rights must extend to homosexuals, here and elsewhere in the world.

  • Brett Nortje

    khosi says:
    May 12, 2012 at 3:26 am

    Here’s an ethical conundrum for you:

    We all know the sense of responsibility he felt, the extent Mbeki was willing to go to keep Zuma from becoming president – he thought what was needed was him becoming President-for-life for South Africa. (Hey, who am I to impugn his motives? Who knows Zuma better?)

    So, do you think an ethical leader of an authoritarian regime should hand over power to democratically elected leaders if he had an inkling that they would say, hypothetically speaking of course, ‘transform’ the police and the criminal justice system to the point where there are half-a-million murders the next two decades and four out of five of the perpetrators of those homicides get away with it?

  • Brett Nortje

    Hey, Khosi, here’s another ethical conundrum for you:

    Do you think an ethical leader of an authoritarian regime should hand over power to democratically elected leaders if he had an inkling that they were so irresponsible that they would, say, hypothetically speaking of course, dither while their country was facing a deadly epidemic and 6 million eventually became infected with a deadly virus?

  • Dmwangi

    @Maggs:

    ‘It’s got to do with your tendency to speak “from both sides of your mouth”.

    You celebrated, encored and cheered Idi Amin’s treatment of Indians in Uganda and you spoke of Indians (all 1.2+ billion) as corrupt and rent-seeking.

    Be that as it may, make a statement that you believe that equal rights must extend to homosexuals, here and elsewhere in the world.’

    You’re talking nonsense. You’ve got a tendency to manufacture statements and ascribe them to me. I never spoke in any generalities about ALL Indians. I said that corruption is deeply entrenched in the Indian community in Kenya. The comment about Idi Amin was made in jest. Your hyperbole about ‘cheering, encores,’ etc. belies the truth.

    As I have reiterated many, many times, homosexuals have inviolable dignity like every other member of the species homo sapiens. They are entitled to equal rights. This is entirely consistent with my stance that homosexual ACTS are immoral (though in most instances ought not be legally proscribed) and that the term ‘gay marriage’ is a violation of non-contradiction.

  • Dmwangi

    @Brett:

    ‘Brett Nortje
    May 12, 2012 at 21:01 pm
    Dmwangi says:
    May 12, 2012 at 20:06 pm

    Iow, he should not dare to tell the truth about Apartheid….’

    In a sense, you are correct. He shouldn’t tell the ENTIRE truth about it because the media and its mouthpieces are not interested in the nuances of truth. For example, de Klerk told the truth when he said: ‘Inasmuch as [apartheid] trampled human rights, it was — and remains — and that I’ve said also publicly — morally indefensible.

    He should have ended it there, full stop. That forum is not appropriate to start mentioning the names of black collaborators, theories of nation-states or any other topic that may be legitimate in a different context but will be misconstrued in that interview as a defence of institutional racism or apartheid era justice.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 12, 2012 at 21:41 pm

    LOL!

    As Brett, being proudly Afrikaans, would say “Jy praat met twee monde”!

  • Jeeves

    On BBBEE: It’s quite simple. It ends when black income/wealth = white income/wealth. Until then it is not unfair discrimination. We’ve got a long way to go.

  • law geek.

    it is saddening that anyone would defend gross human rights violations and dispossession by appeal to the justness of self-determination. surely it is not just coincidence that, by pursuing self-determination, white south africans ended up with most of the south african land, securing the wealthiest parts of the country, the most fertile land. to this day, white south african are in the minority, but have the majority of the wealth of the country.

    since when did SELF-determination stretch to determining where other ‘tribes” are going to live, by co-coercion? is it self-determination when you determine what jobs others can have?

    i, by no means, suggest that any white south african should feel ashamed, show remorse or anything today, but defending such a regime just shows that one is still a white-supremist at heart, who would re-create apartheid if they had the chance because they don’t want to be governed by people who do no share their values!

    p.s, i DO NOT SHARE THE VALUES OF THE ANC, but i accept the fact that we are never all going to be governed by people who share the same outlooks as us, that is just IMPOSSIBLE.

    if you want to be gorvened by people who share your values, would you suggest then that we should create nations or seperate to different nations every time we feel that the people in power to not share our values?

    thats just fucking retarded, there would be a nation for just about every individual then! i refuse to believe that i can ever be governed by someone who shares my values, whether black, white, pink! surely i am more unique than that!

    oh and, get proper education bigots, including your prof, race is a figment of your imaginations.

  • law geek.

    racist white south africans needa get a grip, “poor whites” actually GOT TAUGHT HOW TO BE “OORDENTLIKHEID” by pastors, teachers, social-workers from around the nineteen thirties, that cultural superiority concept is something someone would only believe if they are “dom”, theres no inherent gene that gives anyone the edge on how to behave in a civilised manner, its all about socialisation!

    not wanting to share a church with an untidy person should never equal to not wanting to share a church with a black person unless you are, again, “dom”.
    im soo sixteen years old to be busy educating madalas anyway. lemme stop. get an anthropology, archaeology or history book before you act like a social scientist, retard!

  • law geek.

    lastly, black south africans also need to stop feeling sorry for themselves, that shit is whack, you decide your destiny!

    the fact that you acknowledge whites for disenfranchising you means you concede to white “superiority” over you! if there should be apartheid denialists, they should be black! is it not better to believe that things did not go your way because of at least some mistakes you made than believe that things did not go your way because someone beat you to success (whether by wicked ways or not)?

    black and white people act selflishly given the means, look at our current gov. it has nothing to do with race!

    stop defending people you do not know just because they look as dark or as pale as you.

    screw shaka zulu, screw poor old de klerk, screw promiscous zuma.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jeeves
    May 12, 2012 at 23:02 pm

    “On BBBEE: It’s quite simple. It ends when black income/wealth = white income/wealth. Until then it is not unfair discrimination. We’ve got a long way to go.”

    The way I understand it it ends when white income/wealth = 9.34% of black income wealth according to the noble NDR and the Verwoerdians logics of racial demographics.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Apparently one “good thing” we inherited from Apartheid that De Klerk didn’t mention: racial classifications. Nobody not even the bleeding heart, sorry puss socalled “liberals” seem to have a beef with that.

    You are still a AFRICAN, WHITE, INDIAN or a COLOURED.

    If you like it or not.

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    ‘It is a timely reminder that many white South Africans do not “get” race and that they do not know or, worse, do not care that they are not getting it.’

    Excellent job OB. You, like PdV, must be one of the few whites who ‘gets’ it.

    Seriously though, I think the post you address has a serious point and that is the difference between statistical categories and flesh-and-blood human beings. Fact is, some individual blacks’ income/wealth exceeds that of some whites. But obviously those are outliers that when categorised as a group and cross-compared with other groups don’t appear to fare as well. This deception within central tendency theory actually becomes an argument for your favourite policy: class-based programs.

  • T.a.k

    If racism emplies colour of skin ,than i would like to say black man wil remain black and white man white, apartheid was wrong and evil and some of its bad effect are stil hunting black people .becoz i think apartheid was mentaly effective than physical .black in 20yrs time we live in a diffrent world and more opportunity for every one .racism will never end and please am nt cursing its my view.

  • Brett Nortje

    law geek. says:
    May 12, 2012 at 23:56 pm

    If you’re going to go for simple per-capita-landownershipnow v disposition-then equations you might want to factor in rates of population growth.

    Do you expect responsible government not to have tried to formalise land ownership a couple of years after the Bambatha rebellion? Would you have told your constituency black people should be included in negotiations for a Union?

    One thing you’re not going to learn at law school with academics like De Vos around (and tooPC rectors like Price with their heads up their rectums not making them) is that in most cases compensation was paid for land people were removed from against their will.

    This “most of the south african land” myth is kept alive by the ANC because the only game it has given its spectacular record of failure in every sphere of governance is racial mobilisation and a pathetic claim to legitimacy as being the only shield against the nasty mhlungus who want to impose Apartheid again.

    Lastly, I hope your pleadings one day will have punctuation and capitals, but, possibly not.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    May 13, 2012 at 8:06 am

    “Seriously though, I think the post you address has a serious point and that is the difference between statistical categories and flesh-and-blood human beings. Fact is, some individual blacks’ income/wealth exceeds that of some whites. But obviously those are outliers that when categorised as a group and cross-compared with other groups don’t appear to fare as well. This deception within central tendency theory actually becomes an argument for your favourite policy: class-based programs.”

    Exactly. That would obviously address the real legacy of Apartheid i.e. Mbeki’s two nations: the suburbs versus the rural homelands and townships. Yet in that process of redress we do not need to reinforce Apartheid logic, racial stereotypes and value system by virtue of racial classification that I view as inherently dehumanising.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    I’m advising my racist White boys to tick off “African” when they have to complete any application forms that enquires after their “identity”. I’m willing to take this to the Constitutional court – we need clarity on whether we are permitted to classify ourselves as African. What objective, scientific criteria are they going to use?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    hehehehe – White people are angry, né!

    Nevermind, happy mother’s day to all the mothers out there.

    To OB’s mother : ag, shame aunty. Better luck next time!

  • Kobus Theron

    History is replete with examples of nations, races and ethnic groups who could not tolerate each other, often went to war about it, and never managed to resolve their differences. It goes back centuries, to Biblical times. Of course it is sad, unfortunate and wrong, but that is the way the world has always worked. There is merit in the noble and idealistic pursuit to eradicate racism and foster tolerance and goodwill between different groups, but the sad fact is that it will most probably remain just that – an ideal. Human beings are what they are. So, I for one am not going to lose much sleep over the issue of racism; life’s too short for that. I am just going to get on with my life and try to be nice to other people whenever I can. If other people choose not to be nice to me, so be it. Live and let live.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!
    May 13, 2012 at 9:26 am

    There is a special “racial” category for you: INDIAN. You all look the same, I’m assuming you have the same mother then and she must be rather exhausted after spawning the 1.2+ billion of you.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    ozoneblue
    May 13, 2012 at 9:31 am

    Hey OB,

    “she must be rather exhausted”.

    Not from spawning – she is ready to double that in the next century.

    She’s exhausted from making 1.2+ billion bunny chows every morning for breakfast.

    What did your mother make you for breakfast this morning – boiled eggs?

  • Malusi

    The problem South africa is our failure to debate openly and decisively deal with racism, apartheid etc and that has seriously slowed progress.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    http://allafrica.com/stories/201205120383.html

    “The very notion of ‘separate development’ was at the centre of the apartheid ideology, and was predicated on notions of racist supremacy as was Nazism.”

    It is always important to play the Nazi card. Especially when you cannot argue a point rationally. How about Malcolm X – did he not argue for “separate development” as well?

    “In the 1950s the apartheid government divided the black population of the country according to ethnic groups or tribes and assigned them to separate regions, which were dubbed ethnic homelands, or bantustans. The ten bantustans were Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Gazankulu, KaNgwane, KwaNdebele, KwaZulu, Lebowa, Qwaqwa, Transkei, and Venda.”

    Interestingly however the colonial British/French/Portugese did exactly that with the most of Africa. We even have a Swaziland and a Lesotho today and nobody claims that those apparently artificial creations is the product of Nazism or bantustans was an “insult to the dignity of black South Africans” as Lindiwe Mazibuko puts it.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Nazism:

    “National Socialism (common short form Nazism, German: Nationalsozialismus) was the ideology practiced by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany.[1][2][3][4] It is a unique variety of fascism that incorporates biological racism and antisemitism.[5] Nazism was founded out of elements of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany.[6] The ideology was developed first by Anton Drexler and then Adolf Hitler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[7] Initially Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, though such aspects were later downplayed in the 1930s to gain the support from industrial owners for the Nazis; the focus shifting to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes.[8]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

    “as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.”

    Which puts as back to the 1922 miners strike and how Afrikaner nationalism was in fact constructed as a convenient bulwark against a socialist revolution. The part of the story that PdV and the CNN continues to ignore. That is why they need to construct, reconstruct and reinforce the inherently simplistic and contradictory narrative of White Supremacy/solidarity being a central motivating force in the workings of colonialism and capitalist exploitation.

  • Brett Nortje

    Malusi says:
    May 13, 2012 at 9:55 am

    The biggest problem is the ANC strutted in its its big-assed way, knew it all, had an opinion on everything, fucked up everything it touched did nothing effective about real-life-first-order-of-business priorities and confirmed all the worst fears of proponents of Apartheid.

    In the big-people world actions have consequences.

    Yet, the good ship South Africa sails on. There are new roads everywhere, robots, traffic jams in Soweto, we hosted several A+ World Cups, we feed several of our neighbours, give the socialist utopia Cuba bail-out packages (ROTFLMAO!), rescue people out of trees when our neighbours are flood-stricken, take in babies from across the continent for life-saving surgery, ditto some of those countries’ heads of state….

    Eish! What could have been.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    So now we are getting somewhere in understanding the true nature and goals of Apartheid and why it was all of a sudden and out of the blue abolished in 1991. Had the USSR not collapsed we would still have Apartheid today.

    “Since then, the countries have entered into various co-operation agreements, including a deal for 500 young South Africans to receive primary health-care training in Cuba. South Africa is also at the forefront of an international campaign lobbying for economic, trade and financial embargoes against Cuba to be lifted.”

    http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/opposition-slams-cuba-aid-as-lavish-1.1294635

    However the racist Whites who inhabit that socialist utopia of Cuba (despite much antagonism and economic sabotage from that giant capitalist prison camp of USA) have spend a hell of a lot of resource in fighting Apartheid during the last couple of decades.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    The Cold War that simply never happened and had nothing to do with the Apartheid regime.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_intervention_in_Angola

    It must all have been the product of my hyperactive imagination.

  • Jeeves

    I think that racial categories are officially necessary until reasonable economic equality has been reached: where the average black person’s and average white person’s total wealth/annual income is the same. Only then will any unfair economic advantage that was obtained from Apartheid have been corrected. This means massive and broad-based economic redistribution, which we should be persuing aggressively. The quicker we do this, the quicker we can move on. 20 years is a long time to wait for economic justice.

    Mike A. asked “WHAT DO THE BLACKS WHAT FROM US?”. I don’t know what black people or white people want, but I imagine all decent South Africans support the idea of fairness, equality and justice. An element of this is correcting the massive, inhumane and reprehensible inbalances created by Apartheid.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jeeves
    May 13, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    “This means massive and broad-based economic redistribution, which we should be persuing aggressively. The quicker we do this, the quicker we can move on. 20 years is a long time to wait for economic justice.”

    So are you therefore saying the considerable taxes that the White middle class are paying already is not enough (remember they pay separately for basic services etc. through privatisation), or do you feel that the considerably Black middle class should be exempted from paying tax. Or do you feel that Harry Oppenheimer/Anton Rupert’s considerable wealth should be nationalised.

    I’m just trying to understand the mechanisms that you are proposing.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “Redistribution of Wealth” – the racial capitalist way.

    Aurora workers to get disaster relief

    “International disaster

    Phetoe said the miners and their families were starving.

    This was an international disaster, he said. The affected miners were from Mozambique, Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland and South Africa.

    Five miners were known to have committed suicide since the mine stopped operating, he said.

    “Children have stopped going to school, women are leaving their husbands, people have nothing to eat.”

    The mine also continued to be stripped of assets, he said, with an electric cable worth R2.3m disappearing, despite the mine being guarded.

    “We believe the directors are still scrapping this mine and the money is going directly into their trust account.”

    Phetoe said Aurora could still be a productive mine creating hundreds of jobs, but had been “systematically dismantled”.

    “This is about individual enrichment,” he said.

    Aurora Empowerment Systems is owned by a company, headed by President Jacob Zuma’s nephew, Khulubuse, and former president Nelson Mandela’s grandson, Zondwa Mandela.”

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Aurora-workers-to-get-disaster-relief-20120313

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “Aurora Empowerment Systems”

    “We believe the directors are still scrapping this mine and the money is going directly into their trust account.”

  • Jeeves

    @ozoneblue

    I imagine any solution is bound to be messy, with some winners and losers.

    I suspect that tax is one of the best mechanisms to redistribute wealth. As the vast majority of the poor people are also black, tax wouldn’t need to be racially based. It could be (and is) based on income, area, etc. While many South Africans feel overtaxed (where in the world don’t people) tax could be much higher on the wealthy and high earners. France’s new president is talking about bringing in a top income tax rate of 75%. The UK coalition govt. is discussing the option of a “wealth tax” and/or “mansion tax” In Germany, state health insurance is 15.5% of gross salary. So yes, the rich (black and white) should pay more.

    Tax is only on element of the equation. One example of another measure (off the top of my head): high-density, low-cost, govt. subsidized housing along transport corridors in wealthy areas (e.g. Constantia, Newlands), which would go a long way to helping achieve economic justice, encouraging racial and economic integration, and easing disasterous city design and transport problems.

    I certainly don’t have all the answers, but working together I’m sure we can chart a constructive, better and fairer way forward.

  • Jeeves

    BBBEE is important too.

  • Brett Nortje

    You have none of the ‘answers’.

    Have you been doing a Rip-van-Winkle the last 18 years?

  • Jeeves

    @Brett N

    How constructive. I’ve been here and involved. What do you have to contribute?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jeeves
    May 13, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    Brilliant idea. More taxes on the super rich and capital gains tax on large international companies is very good place to start.

    However I disagree with paying those taxes into an incompetent, paralysed and corrupt government. Government should employ the best (irrespective of race) to do the job. We have plenty of highly competent professionals who are white/indian and excluded from making a valuable contribution because of this. AA has been destructive and most notable in the PWD and I can pay testimony to that. The “decentralised” municipalities as well as tender system has to go as well, all that we have “decentralised” is incompetence and corruption and the tender system has introduced massive inefficiencies sidetracking from what government’s mission is all about. We are not paying these taxes into a system that is in fact *not about delivering services to the poor* but rather to further enrich the middle class.

  • Mike Ambassador

    @ Jeeves thank you, finally a practical answer, questions on this Tax if I may:..

    (1)Who will control it as it will be serious money and considering how much money just disapears (R20 Bill a year – the DA barometer says over R3 Trillion + wasted over 18 years – not sure if this is an accurate figure but only one I can ref) I have serious doubts the ANC gov can deal with this.

    (2) Would you be open to a group of people like Bish Tutu / et al taking care of it?

    (3) Will there be a written sunset clause on this tax.

    (4) If we agree to this tax will free borns be excempt from AA/ BEE

    Thanks

  • Jeeves

    @ozoneblue

    I agree that corruption is a disease that saps the lifeblood from an economy. It is hugely destructive, no matter where you find it (and it’s pretty widespread in the rich world too). Incompetence, I think, can be addressed more easily (through training, etc.). Importantly, contrary to what is often said or implied, corruption and incompetence have nothing to do with race.

    Utilizing all citizens’ (and others’) skills, while becoming more inclusive and providing those who have been disadvantaged with real and meaningful opportunities, is a tough balancing act. This doesn’t mean we should shy away from or fudge the difficult decisions- we should confront them now.

    I agree with a lot of what you write. South Africa deserves better. From everyone.

  • Jeeves

    @Mike A.

    My opinions. Any changes to the tax code wouldn’t be race-based, just aggressively progressive.

    1) The government would. Who else could? Isn’t that the norm? Oversight should exist though. Reasonable checks and balances are critical.

    2) Administering tax revenues? Not particularly. Prominent leaders will (as always) have an important role to play (communications, support, etc.).

    3) On progressive taxation? No. Tax policy should support a lot of things. Social justice is just one element in the mix. As the needs of the country change, so should the tax code.

    4) No, but they should be afforded every opportunity to contribute meaningfully and participate as fully as possible in the economy, their communities, etc. AA and BBBEE will end one day. It’s up to us how soon that day comes.

  • Mike Ambassador

    @Jeeves, without the removel of AA / BEE for free borns and a Sunset clause on the tax there is no carrot only a stick, so who would honeslty agree to it?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jeeves
    May 13, 2012 at 14:07 pm

    “Importantly, contrary to what is often said or implied, corruption and incompetence have nothing to do with race.”

    My experience is that incompetence is the primary cause of “corruption”. In other words in the vast majority of cases government employees are not consciously dishonest but thee do stupid naive things without even realizing that they are in fact behaving in a “corrupt” way, either because of the lack of basic qualifications or relevant experience. I disagree that the PWD should be the place where such experience should be accumulated at the expense of service delivery to the people.

    “Utilizing all citizens’ (and others’) skills, while becoming more inclusive and providing those who have been disadvantaged with real and meaningful opportunities, is a tough balancing act.”

    It is a balancing act that is unfortunately overwhelmingly tilted towards the artificial creation of a Black middle class using the state and taxes as a vehicle instead of a general rigorous effort to substantially uplift those who are trapped in the townships and rural areas because of the legacy of Apartheid social engineering.

  • Jeeves

    Carrots and sticks are extrinsic motivators. Powerful intrinsic motivators like purpose and autonomy should also be considered. And knowing that if we get things right, we can abolish AA and BBBEE, should be a potent “carrot”. Acknowledging and maximising one’s educational, economic, social, etc. advantages (which most white “free-borns” enjoy) when confronted with AA and BBBEE should (on average) produce the fairest result possible.

    “Free-borns” have a lot to contibute and a lot to gain in the long run.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mike Ambassador
    May 13, 2012 at 14:35 pm

    BBBEE and AA cannot uplift the masses. It is not mathematically possible, you just need to take a look at the demographic ratios/numbers to understand that these policies are designed to empower minorities who are not integrated into a larger well functioning economy where there is some dominant majority who are keeping the system functioning and stable. But in South Africa if we thing we can simply just “transfer the wealth” including the skills and know-how base from one dominant racial group to the other, given the sorry state of education at all levels, we are setting up for a massive fail.

  • Mike Ambassador

    @Jeeves, if this tax was introduced, what time frame do you see before AA / BEE / white – black income levels equal / etc coming to an end?

  • Jeeves

    @ozoneblue

    I don’t think you can be unintentionally corrupt. In my mind, incompetence and corruption are very different beasts.

    On your second point: Fair enough. I think you make an excellent point. Although a growing black middle-class is a very good thing! Much more needs to be done about the dire situation of many poverty-stricken South Africans.

  • Brett Nortje

    Do you know how many people pay the bulk of tax in this country?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jeeves
    May 13, 2012 at 14:46 pm

    ““Free-borns” have a lot to contibute and a lot to gain in the long run.”

    How are they supposed to contribute if they are to be excluded by definition? And assuming they come form the upper/middle classes who are much more mobile why would they want to stick around instead of emigrating to Australia.

    What are the majority group expected to contribute instead hoping for BBBEE/AA affirmation from a small minority?

  • Jeeves

    @Mike A.

    Massive economic change can happen quickly. Germany’s Wirtschaftswunder is just one example. China’s stellar growth another. Conditions might be different in SA (they always are), but the opporunity for a successful future exists. Perhaps, your “free-born” children could become teachers? The jobs are there, and you’ve pointed out the desperat need.

  • Jeeves

    @Brett N.

    Roughly, yes. That’s what happens.when you have a ridiculous GINI coefficient and progressive taxation. Fair’s fair.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Jeeves
    May 13, 2012 at 14:56 pm

    “I don’t think you can be unintentionally corrupt.”

    Of course you can. You may be blissfully unaware that you need three quotations for buying some system or equipment. You may be blissfully unaware what sort of skill sets it it takes to build and construct a new hospital. You may be blissfully unaware of how a transparent tender process is supposed to work.

  • Hayden Eastwood

    @ Jeeves

    The notion that redistributing wealth will make poor people richer is not necessarily true. It is quite possible to attempt to “wrestle” wealth from minorities only to find that the wealth quickly vanishes. Zimbabwe, Uganda and various countries that have attempted to “re-take” wealth from Jews are testimony to this. The trick with wealth redistribution is to have it at a level that does not undermine the very engine of growth on which it depends.

    Sadly the idea that rich people are rich because poor people are poor is rather widespread, despite the fact that this assumption does not stand up to scrutiny. People doing jobs or starting a business increase the pool of wealth by providing services or making products. That white people should be told that they are “controlling” the wealth because they provide services and manufacture products, is very 19th century. They are not consuming wealth, but in fact, creating it. From my vantage point the key to empowerment is to equip black people to start businesses and provide services that have real economic value, rather than to dismantle the existing economic pie and spread it around.

    The major obstacle to achieving growth of blacks as opposed to the destruction of whites is two fold. First, the sense of injustice still experienced by many black South Africans over their historical treatment is deep. Many would like to see white people knocked down (as it were) in order to “balance the wheels of justice”. This is more of an emotional response to their history than it is a productive desire to better their own circumstances. Sadly, the oblivious and indifferent attitudes of whites in South Africa only encourages black people to remain trapped in this counterproductive emotional mindset.

    Second, black South Africans will only contribute to and benefit from the national economy if they have the skills and faculties to do so. South Africa is currently in the frustrating position that it suffers both high unemployment and high skills shortages. The solution, proposed by BBBEE, is to take unqualified blacks and launch them into positions that they cannot hope to provide value in. I have seen this first hand in a university environment where failing black students were given passes. Quite often their level of English was so weak that they could barely construct sentences, let alone make complex economic, mathematical or physical arguments. Quite simply, placing people of these skills into businesses will diminish the pool of wealth, rather than add to it.

    The above two points means that it is easier for the ANC to maintain power by appealing to popular emotional sentiments than it is to make the necessary sacrifices and investments to transform the education system into an machine that churns out economically useful people.

    Everybody has their role to play in fixing this problem. Black South Africans need to realise that their road to a better life will come through self improvement and hard work. White South Africans need to invest more time into bringing black South Africans up to speed. White business should be offering more bursaries to young and promising students, they should have better training schemes to recognise and promote talent, and they should shun the easy option of fulfilling BBEEE quotias with lame ducks whose sole job is to have a black face.

    Lastly, all South Africans have a duty to demand transparency and competence from their leaders.

  • Pierre De Vos

    I would like to thank the many people who have posted here and have been hurling invective at me. You have really proven my point behind my wildest dreams. Thanks.

  • Jeeves

    @Hayden E.

    I agree wholeheartedly with much of your excellent and balanced post.

    Unfortunatley, in South Africa, many of the poor are poor because of the (relatively) rich. That is what Apartheid did. I think every attempt should be made to reduce poverty, correct past injustices (history is important) and make South Africa a fairer more equal society. All redistribution should be fair and reasonable too. If the rich world, with fairly equal societies can redistribute wealth, without upsetting the economic apple cart, why can’t SA? Look at places like the UK which had a top tax rate of above 90% from WW2 until well into the 1970s. They are doing okay. Zimbabwe and Uganda failes for other (political) reasons- token redistribution was merely a smokescreen.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Hayden Eastwood
    May 13, 2012 at 15:16 pm

    “Sadly the idea that rich people are rich because poor people are poor is rather widespread, despite the fact that this assumption does not stand up to scrutiny. People doing jobs or starting a business increase the pool of wealth by providing services or making products.”

    They only “create wealth” if they are paying decent wages and workers have well protected rights. The wealth that you are saying are created in capitalist societies are overwhelmingly concentrated in the hands of a few. The real question is if that is considered a good model for South Africa. Worldwide the inequality coefficients are growing, the alarm lights are flickering, how this is going to pan out at the end nobody knows. Perhaps we heading towards another Bolshevik revolution – in South Africa that revolution will have a distinctly racial element to it.

    To start a business you need education, social stable environment, basic services, some security, infrastructure, you need capital etc. etc. Not everybody can start a business – you also need somebody to do the work and earn a decent enough living. We have lots of micro business men/women in South Africa who somehow get along somehow selling vegetables on street corners.

    Economic growth can only happen when the large companies that “create the wealth” are also taxed to spread the wealth and those taxes are applied prudently to create such conditions conducive to growth. But at the end of the day you cannot build a stable society when such large disparities in wealth generation and accumulation persist.

  • Mike Ambassador

    @ Jeeves my eldest is first year law and my youngest wants to go the same route next year. However getting in UCT (were both want to attend) is impossible, so she had to settle for NMU. I must also add I had to take a second bond on my house to pay for this, as no bursaries are avalaible to them, and yes I am grateful that I own a home that can be bonded.

  • Jeeves

    @ozoneblue

    Hear hear

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Pierre De Vos
    May 13, 2012 at 15:35 pm

    You are welcome.

  • Jeeves

    More lawyers. Just what we need ;)

    Education is (prohibitively) expensive. It is a global problem and something that needs to be addressed. Look at the UK protests against tution which can now exceed R100,000/year. A few years ago, it was free. Also, not everyone gets to go to Oxford and Cambridge…

    Perhaps, we should look to the German apprenticeship model, which gives young people real, practical skills, is funded (in part) by business, and virtually guarantees a job. Not everyone needs or wants to go to university. We have created the de..mand. Gordon Brown’s grand dream of sending 50% of school-leavers to university was ridiculous. We should be investing in technical training, FE, etc.

    I’m not trying to be cruel. In an ideal world your children woulf be able to study what they want to, where they want to. Reading for a LLB at NMU is still an wonderful opportunity afforded to the relatively few. I wish both yout children every future success.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mike Ambassador
    May 13, 2012 at 15:46 pm

    I believe the only way forward given the competition for resources would be a [weighted] lottery system, yet based on merit as they have in Holland. Only perhaps here we can have a quota for say 50% entry purely on academic merit, and a quota of 40% from top candidates in public schools, and say 10% from top candidates in other African countries.

    http://www.benwilbrink.nl/projecten/lottery.htm

    I also believe government/big business should sponsor all of the above who do not have enough money.

    We certainly don’t need race as a qualifier because there are plenty of other morally defensible mechanisms to address the injustices of the past.

  • Jeeves

    @Mike A.

    On university admissions: That’s a suggestion that’s definitely worth exploring.

  • Jeeves

    Sorry, @ozoneblue.

    I’m following this thread on a mobile phone…

  • Dmwangi

    @Jeeves:

    Just want to throw my weight behind Jeeves. I’m in heated agreement with much of what you say. And I like that you seem like a reasonable, non-ideological chap who doesn’t fall into the either/or trap.

    @PdV:

    How open-minded of you. I too like to inoculate myself after making an argument by stipulating that anyone who disagrees is engaging in ad hominem attacks which by definition means my argument carries the day.

    People are hurling invective at your argument because of its intellectual poverty.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    May 13, 2012 at 17:09 pm

    Do not argue with the Voice of America.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    So to summarise, what De Vos wants the world to believe is that Apartheid, in its inception, was entirely motivated by an irrational racial hatred of White people against Black people and that it had absolutely nothing to do (for a fair amount of Afrikaners at the time including my parents ate least) with a real desire for “separate development” and “self-determination” – however one-sided and impossible such a naive desire.

    It is of course entirely possible that his family was exactly that hyper-racist type of Afrikaner that throws the k-word around with gay abandon and have no respect for Black people and African culture, even today. That may help to explain whey he looks down at “tribalism” (including Afrikaner tribalism”), and traditional African leaders and refers to Cde Zuma with so much hatred as a “chauvinist pig”. But he should rather not project his own family’s Eurocentric chauvinist value system on everybody else and then speak for Afrikaners or on my behalf.

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    There is little doubt in my mind that racism has existed in SA from the moment whites and blacks encountered each other.

    What I object to is the fatuous notion that this is somehow novel in human history, that it’s inherent in Western philosophy/thought, and that all whites are thereby forever ‘tainted’ with the ‘virus of racism running through their veins.’

    It would be as foolish to deny the salience race and racism have played in SA history as it would be to subscribe to PdV’s vulgar racial determinism.

  • Mike Ambassador

    @ Jeeves I agree and as a young kid most of my mates went to Oliphantsfontein on the train to do trade tests after I think it was 2 or 3 years as an apprentice. Some of them have very succesfull business today in SA and one even has an engineering works in NZ ….. but does not support the “All Black”!!

    Why was that stopped??

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 13, 2012 at 18:44 pm

    Dm,

    “There is little doubt in my mind that racism has existed in SA from the moment whites and blacks encountered each other. ”

    Indeed.

    That is not the issue.

    We don’t know and cannot sensibly speculate what South Africa would have been like (even whether there would even have a been a South Africa) if colonisation/apartheid had not happened.

    We do, however, know that our nation suffers the structural and systemic consequences of the iniquitous past – even our Constitution recognises that.

    In context our country has relatively little to show for all the wealth generated from its resources and labour for centuries.

    This should bother all South Africans and others who live in it – and we should be working to create a better life for all while we can.

    At a recent discussion Somadoda Fikeni made an interesting observation “you cannot solve the problem of racism in the Western Cape without remedying rural poverty in the Eastern Cape” (or thereabouts).

    These are not problems for government alone to solve – it will take the entire nation and more.

    It’s been demonstrated numerous times and in numerous ways that we have the capacity to do something.

    de Klerk’s ridiculous comments have given those who have squeezed and milked the then system the space to want more and give less – maybe his Nobel prize should be taken away.

    He has done our country enormous harm!

  • Dmwangi

    @Maggs:

    ‘We do, however, know that our nation suffers the structural and systemic consequences of the iniquitous past – even our Constitution recognises that.

    In context our country has relatively little to show for all the wealth generated from its resources and labour for centuries.

    This should bother all South Africans and others who live in it – and we should be working to create a better life for all while we can.

    At a recent discussion Somadoda Fikeni made an interesting observation “you cannot solve the problem of racism in the Western Cape without remedying rural poverty in the Eastern Cape” (or thereabouts).

    These are not problems for government alone to solve – it will take the entire nation and more.

    It’s been demonstrated numerous times and in numerous ways that we have the capacity to do something.’

    Amen. You were doing great until the end. The de Klerk thing is really a media contrived controversy. As I said yesterday, he made the political mistake of trying to make an academic point and the media spun it so he sounded like he was equivocating about apartheid. His interview will, in the grand scheme, not affect the trajectory of the country one bit. What might however, is ppl like PdV using ‘bullshit’ post-modern racial theories to antagonize, fuel resentments, and divide ppl.

    We ought to be able to recognise the role of race and racism in SA’s history (and history more generally) without condemning entire classes of ppl as ‘infected’ with the ‘virus of racial superiority,’ thereby castigating them as ‘inherently racist,’ ‘ morally inferior,’ etc.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go! says:
    May 13, 2012 at 19:37 pm

    Yadda yadda yadda Blah Blah blah

    Received any ‘different’ emails lately?

  • Brett Nortje

    Dmwangi says:
    May 13, 2012 at 17:09 pm

    Jeeves has come up with nothing we haven’t hear a million times before – a plan permeated with failure – doomed at inception – all based on central planning – yawn!

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    May 13, 2012 at 15:44 pm

    They create wealth by putting money in peoples’ pockets and growing the taxbase, you silly socialist. That enables the state to spend more without borrowing unlike you guys who like Greek-style.

    I’ve seen a guy start off by selling Herbal Life of a fold-up table, save up for a pocorn machine which also fitted on the fold-up table, then had to expand because an ice-cream machine did not fit on the table too. Now he is paying someone to work the popcornn and ice-cream machines, the dirty exploitative capitalist bastard.

    Wonder what happened to the Herbal Life…

  • Brett Nortje

    Jeeves says:
    May 13, 2012 at 15:41 pm

    Way to agree with an argument you do not understand the main thesis of!

  • Pierre De Vos
  • Hayden Eastwood

    @ Peter de Vos

    If you have built into your world view the caveat that disagreement with your world view is proof that your world view is correct, then you can really believe anything at all, and not require any evidence to do so. Such lazy intellectualism is the antithesis of the scientific method.

  • Hayden Eastwood

    Ozoneblue:

    [Companies] only “create wealth” if they are paying decent wages and workers have well protected rights.

    That’s not entirely true. Production, for the most part, is a good in and of itself. Goods are being produced for others to consume, and the most widespread consumers of goods are the workers themselves. The greater the production, the lower the unit cost per item, which is good for everyone, even assuming the most unfair conditions. The problems is also not a choice between well paid jobs and poorly paid jobs, but a choice between poor jobs and no jobs. It is always the privileged who advocate that the poor should choose no jobs over bad jobs, but rarely the poor themselves who do so. Of course, we should strive to create conditions for better wages, but let’s not stop jobs from being created in the short term because we fear they are not as well paid as we would like in our utopian vision.

    “To start a business you need education, social stable environment, basic services, some security, infrastructure, you need capital etc. etc. ”

    That’s precisely my point: government and society at large should be creating these conditions to allow young black entrepreneurs to benefit from the enormous marketplace that South Africa has to offer. Sadly, there are no mechanisms in place to deal with the poverty trap that so many young people find themselves in.

    “But at the end of the day you cannot build a stable society when such large disparities in wealth generation and accumulation persist.”

    Well this is a pretty complex issue and your assertion is a little simplistic. It also rests on a variety of Marxist assumptions about what makes people happy and unhappy, none of which really stand up to historical scrutiny, but which are nevertheless accepted in our day and age as self evident truths requiring no further evidence. My own observations are very different to Marx’s. Look at Zimbabwe, for example, which has been singularly politically stable despite rampant (and growing) inequality. The same can be said for many African countries. The trouble with political analysts is that they so often cherry pick data to support their preconceived ideas of what they believe ought to be causing outcomes. Quite often it is the reverse that causes revolutions, that rising incomes inflate peoples’ egos and drive them to want ever more. The demise of the white man in South Africa will not come from the impoverished masses, but by men in suits who live in large houses and drive expensive cars.

    My point, I suppose is this: First, we should attempt to tax businesses to the extent that taxes will allow them to grow, and no more. Second, we should increase the value of workers so that they can realistically command more in the work place. Wages are basic supply and demand economics. There are too many unskilled workers competing for too few jobs. The laws of supply and demand cannot go unheeded. The government must create workers with can fill the skills shortfall. It’s a non-solution to expect companies to pay huge wage increases to people who offer no value to the product or service they are employed to produce.

  • Gwebecimele

    NOTHING NEW, NEXT TOPIC.

  • Gwebecimele
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Hayden Eastwood says:
    May 13, 2012 at 21:49 pm

    Doesn’t this bit sound rather familiar lifted from the Nats 1947 election Manifesto.

    “Bantu Employment

    A national system of employment control with a central employment bureau to administer the entire network, will be established with a view to achieving as flexible as possible a system of demand and supply of labour with a minimum of waste. This would imply thorough stocktaking of both the requirements and the labour potential in order effectively to divert the available labour into the various channels of farming, industry, mining and urban employment. All aspects of employment including that of migratory Iabour, should be thoroughly investigated.”

    Could just as well be the DA’s neoliberal labor broking policy.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Hayden Eastwood says:
    May 13, 2012 at 21:49 pm

    LOL.

    “Look at Zimbabwe, for example, which has been singularly politically stable despite rampant (and growing) inequality. The same can be said for many African countries.”

    “Political stability”. One of the more salient features of African countries. Holy shit boet, which planet are you from?

  • Dmwangi

    @Hayden:

    ‘That’s not entirely true. Production, for the most part, is a good in and of itself.’

    Nonsense. We have tons of output that produces no intrinsic value (probably even negative value) for society– example one being this very blog and PdV’s academic apptment. Production of tik is most certainly not a good thing in and of itself despite its widespread demand.

    ‘The greater the production, the lower the unit cost per item….’

    Also not necessarily true.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele says:
    May 13, 2012 at 22:12 pm

    “Real political power therefore remains firmly in the hands of white monopoly capital, which owns the decisive means of production in our country. It is precisely this situation which continues to generate the centuries-old conditions of humiliation and the suppression of the talents of the vast majority of the people, who are Black and working class.”

    So one must assume from that everything is gonna be just honky dory and the people will have real political power once Black monopoly capital owns the decisive means of production in our country. More of that racist Leninism that has derailed each and every progressive socialist movement in Africa and transformed it into noting more and nothing less than mere barbaric nationalism.

  • Hayden Eastwood

    @Dmwangi:

    Let’s not be pedantic. “Production of tik is most certainly not a good thing in and of itself despite its widespread demand.” Okay, you’ve found an exception. I refer to staple production: radios, televisions, books, batteries, shoes, screwdrivers, food, clothes. But okay, tik, certain types of mining (with insufficient tax), a few other polluting or socially destructive activities. The vast majority of production increases everybody’s standing of living. South Africa, even under Apartheid, had one of the highest working class incomes in Africa. And that was in a system designed to ruin those same people. Compare that to neighbouring countries that had far less production.

  • Hayden Eastwood

    @ Ozoneblue:

    “Political stability”. One of the more salient features of African countries. Holy shit boet, which planet are you from?

    Fellow, Zimbabwe has had the same leader and same party for 33 years. If that isn’t political stability, then I don’t know what is. Economic stability, that’s the horse of an entirely different kidney.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Hayden Eastwood says:
    May 13, 2012 at 23:34 pm

    Yes I have noted more than 4 mil happyZimbabweans in South Africa desperately looking for work just to stay alive. And then the brutal suppression of the MDC. Is that how your stable South Africa is going to work? When the comrades come for you, you are going to phone the army?

  • Dmwangi

    @Hayden:

    ‘The vast majority of production increases everybody’s standing of living.’

    Next time you’re in PP or Woolworth’s look around and ask: how many of these goods enhance human flourishing?

    We can gin up demand for just about anything, but the vast majority of products are not even tangentially related to ‘essentials’ and I seriously question the degree to which they improve anyone’s life. Consumption and utility are not synonymous with fulfillment and well-being.

    And I make quite a nice living selling these products!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozonblue67

    “A national system of employment control with a central employment bureau to administer the entire network, will be established with a view to achieving as flexible as possible a system of demand and supply of labour with a minimum of waste.”

    So Cde Vavi is right. We will never accept Economic Apartheid, because at its ideological roots it was never really about the noble “self-determination”, “seperate development” or the more sinister White Supremacy and/or Nazism.

    It was always about plenty of CHEAP LABOR – and how to prevent the exploited African masses from exercising political control and/or overthrow the capitalist order.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhh!

    The Dark Underbelly of Democratic South Africa.

    Mdluli was not interviewed by police management for the job he holds. He was instead interviewed by four politicians: Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa, State Security Minister Siyabonga Cwele, the then home affairs deputy minister Malusi Gigaba, who is now minister of public enterprises, and former safety and security deputy minister Susan Shabangu, who is now minister of mineral resources.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/columnists/2012/04/30/our-gangster-state

    I hope the DLF forms a political party before the next elections.

    Otherwise I will have to campaign for the AWB.

    Anyone but Zuma!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 13, 2012 at 20:24 pm

    Dm,

    “The de Klerk thing is really a media contrived controversy. As I said yesterday, he made the political mistake of trying to make an academic point and the media spun it so he sounded like he was equivocating about apartheid.”

    I’ve read and re-read and re-read the quote abive.

    Unless there is a convincing case to be made otherwise, I (reluctantly and grudgingly – albeit temporarily :P ) concede that you may have a point.

    He did say Inasmuch as it trampled human right, it was – and remains – and that I’ve said also publicly, morally reprehensible.

    He can keep his Nobel prize!

    p.s. you’re still a wanker.

  • Paul Kearney

    C’mon Jeeves. Let’s look at levelling average personal income. If in 10 people, one earns a million ront and the others earn nothing average income is R100 000. Any idea where I’m going? Then who is Black? Indians and Coloureds? If they are not Black, then why stop there. What about averaging out for the Jews, Greeks and Portuguese? Different storey if you are talking uplifting ALL the poor without bringing race into it; then I support the principal. If it’s race based: dust off the apartheid books; they may help you.

  • Dmwangi

    @Maggs:

    ‘p.s. you’re still a wanker’

    True. But one of the great things about being a wanker is that you don’t care if ppl think you’re a wanker.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Dmwangi
    May 14, 2012 at 7:33 am

    LOL Dm,

    Happy Monday to you too.

    Paul Kearney May 14, 2012 at 7:23 am “dust off the apartheid books”.

    I dunno if that will help us make any progress as a nation.

    Perhaps we should be dusting off the “Second Carnegie Inquiry into Poverty and Development in Southern Africa”.

    It’s kept hidden like all dirty family secrets should be.

    And then there’s that danged RDP White Paper which Mbeki wisely shoved in the trash can.

    Oh well – while we got FW to scapegoat, I guess those don’t really matter much.

    As always FUCK THE POOR!

  • Brett Nortje

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=158444

    GAVIN LEWIS: Economy
    Try something different from job-eating central planning

    Published: 2011/11/11 07:24:41 AM

    JOSEPH Stalin had a much easier job than President Jacob Zuma
    when it comes to central planning. Since the Plan, devised by
    ideologues and bureaucrats with no knowledge of business or
    industry, was by definition perfect, any failure of the Plan
    could only mean sabotage by counter-revolutionaries. So the
    solution to the failure of the Plan was to shoot the saboteurs.
    No such luck for Zuma, living as he does in a democracy with a
    battered but extant market-based economy. Yet, although the
    concepts that underlie central planning may have died with the
    collapse of the Soviet bloc, they live on, zombie-like, at the
    southern tip of Africa.

    The damage central planning causes to jobs is clear. In the past
    decade, SA has underperformed the global average, the developed
    world’s average, the undeveloped world’s average and Africa’s
    average. We sit with the highest recorded unemployment rate in
    the world.

    There is a cost to central planning in SA and nowhere is it more
    apparent than in the costs to the economy, and thus to jobs,
    through the chief implementation agencies of that planning, our
    state-owned enterprises (SOEs). They form the centrepiece of the
    “developmental state” that the alliance ideologues fondly imagine
    exists so successfully in SA. Yet the cost of this is immense and
    it is mounting. In the four years to last year, bail-outs of SOEs
    cost taxpayers R243bn.

    Nor does it end there. Burdened by the cost of the unwanted King
    Shaka airport in KwaZulu-Natal, the Airports Company SA, a state
    agency, wants to recoup its losses with a 132% increase in
    airport taxes. Yet tourism lies at the heart of industrial policy
    as a prime job creator. The SABC, playing interminable musical
    chairs with its incompetent leadership of deployed cadres, is an
    endless drain on state resources. And every household and small
    enterprise in SA strains under the costs of the annual 25%-plus
    hike in Eskom’s charges. There is no money left for savings, nor
    for consumption, as these state monopolies leech on SA’s economy.

    All of this costs jobs. While “good news” SA was warbling on to
    investors about SA’s “cheap” electricity, the state planners
    ignored the market signals of a looming crisis until the wheels
    fell off. It meant the end of another triumph of state planning,
    the Coega deep- water harbour, which immediately lost a R2,5bn
    investment by Rio Tinto Alcan.

    Most recently, even as the state’s Industrial Policy Action Plan
    2 targets “beneficiation”, which basically means adding energy to
    heat raw ore, SA’s only zinc smelter, near Springs, closed down
    due to uncompetitive electricity tariff hikes. Yet state planners
    continue to punt smelters as a solution to job creation. From
    2005 to 2014, independent economist Mike Schussler reminds us,
    electricity prices based on already-agreed tariffs, will have
    risen by 633%. Schussler estimates this alone will reduce SA’s
    gross domestic product (GDP) by 1% a year.

    Since 2009, power shortages have pulled the plug on an estimated
    R6bn in new property and construction initiatives, says the
    Cement and Concrete Industry, while mining, a job mainstay in
    this economy, has also taken a knock.

    It is this very developmental state, as conceptualised by the
    government, that is the real and present danger to economic
    growth and the 5-million new jobs target.

    If we examine where the developmental state has had successes,
    such as in some of the Far East’s economies, we quickly see that
    there is very little common ground between our fantasies of the
    developmental state and the developmental state in, for instance
    South Korea in the 1950s and 1960s. In an address to the Helen
    Suzman Foundation (Focus 2009), William Gumede provides a useful
    summary of the reasons for South Korea’s developmental state
    succeeding. The developmental state in South Korea had the
    following core characteristics:
    – A highly technocratic bureaucracy. In other words, it had a
    public service with competent people;
    – A public service that drew on the whole country’s talents,
    regardless of race or gender, drawing on the best skills
    available;
    – Clear policies with easily measurable targets towards their
    achievement;
    – A coalition in which business and labour are equal partners,
    with no political preferences given to either; and
    – Decisive leadership. Without it, countries unwilling to make
    the necessary hard decisions tend to drift from policy to policy.

    As each policy fails, so it is replaced with a new one, while the
    real economy falters.

    These points also help explain why government’s countercyclical
    public infrastructure investment of R785bn remains elusive.

    Nor is this new. From 1995 to 2004, public sector investment in
    SA was stagnant at 5% of GDP, way below the average of capitalist
    economies. The “developmental” state lacks the capacity to
    implement development. It exists in the fantasy life of the Blade
    Nzimandes and Ebrahim Patels of this world. Nor has it helped
    that SOEs lack planning and execution skills under leaders
    appointed for political, not business, reasons.

    Nonetheless, among the leadership of the Congress of South
    African Trade Unions and the South African Communist Party, the
    concept of the developmental state remains a central component of
    SA’s march to the sunny uplands of the hoped-for national
    democratic revolution.

    There is no modesty here, no sign of a fundamental rethink. So,
    as night follows day, the Growth, Employment and Redistribution
    policy is followed by the Accelerated and Shared Growth
    Initiative for SA, and now the New Growth Path.

    When expressed through the SOEs, these developmental state
    assumptions about redistribution and shared growth produce the
    kind of problems that are epitomised by Eskom. If they were not
    so richly rewarded, it would be possible to feel pity for Eskom’s
    leaders of recent years, as they try to meet the contradictory
    demands of the developmental state proponents in SA.

    Thus Eskom’s management was simultaneously supposed to run this
    monopoly as a profit-making business on the one hand and to
    provide “free” electricity and meet expensive social goals on the
    other. It was an impossible ask.

    Much the same applies to Telkom , which even now holds a
    death-like grip on the local loop, which has seen much poorer
    countries such as Kenya roar past Africa’s only industrialising
    economy in the provision of affordable broadband services. The
    cost in jobs forgone can be guessed at by international
    experience, which shows that universal broadband access alone can
    add up to 1% a year to GDP. Yet the state in this country
    willingly forgoes that opportunity for growth. Meanwhile, rapid
    technological advances have allowed the cellphone industry to
    connect far more South Africans at an affordable rate than
    Telkom, with all its billions in taxpayer subsidies, can dream
    of.

    And under SOE Transnet, the port of Durban was this year awarded
    the honour of being both the most expensive and the most
    inefficient in the world. Yet the German economy (for instance)
    has been rescued from global recession in large part due to
    increased exports. And the rail bottlenecks that stop us from
    exploiting the commodities booms are all too well known.

    In sum, the developmental state in SA has a record of failure.
    Ordinary South Africans in the real economy can’t afford our
    ideologues or business as usual. It’s time to learn the lessons
    and do things differently.
    . Lewis is a Democratic Alliance member of the Gauteng
    legislature.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    p.s. the quote I referred to earlier is :

    But in South Africa it failed. And by the end of the ‘70’s, we had to realize, and accept and admit to ourselves that it had failed. And that is when fundamental reform started…. There are three reasons it (apartheid) failed. It failed because the whites wanted to keep too much land for themselves. It failed because we (whites and blacks) became economically integrated, and it failed because the majority of blacks said that is not how we want our rights…. I can only say in a qualified way. Inasmuch as it trampled human right, it was – and remains – and that I’ve said also publicly, morally reprehensible. But the concept of giving as the Czechs have it and the Slovaks have it, of saying that ethnic unities with one culture, with one language, can be happy and can fulfil their democratic aspirations in an own state, that is not repugnant.

  • Brett Nortje

    Is Angola more FU than South Africa? Are we well on the way? Could this happen in the UK, or the Netherlands?

    What would the reason be, do you think?

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/SA-groep-in-Angola-gegryp-20120513

    SA groep in Angola gegryp
    2012-05-13 21:36
    Erika Gibson
    ’n Span forensiese antropoloë, familie en oud-makkers wat vier Suid-Afrikaanse soldate se oorskot uit Angola wou herwin, is ure lank in dié land deur die polisie aangehou nadat hulle in die middernagtelike ure aangesê is om die opgrawing te staak.

    “Die opdrag het glo van die hoogste gesag gekom,” het genl. Gert Opperman van die Erfenisstigting en voorsitter van die Ebo-trust, wat aan die stuur van die inisiatief is, gister kort ná sy span se aankoms terug in Suid-Afrika gesê.

    “Die oorskot van kapt. Daniël Jacob Taljaard was klaar geïdentifiseer en die ander skelette blootgelê toe ons gedwing is om die grafte weer toe te gooi.

    “Dit was ’n vreesaanjaende ervaring vir van die spanlede om in die middel van die nag deur ’n groep aggressiewe, swaar gewapende soldate en polisiemanne agterin vangwaens gelaai en ure lank sonder kos of water aangehou te word.”

    Die span het ses jaar gespook om al die nodige diplomatieke dokumentasie reg te kry, wat vroeër vanjaar met die bemiddeling van die departement van internasionale betrekkinge en samewerking bewillig is.

    Opperman en ’n voorspan was juis sowat twee maande gelede in die Ebo-omgewing, waar die vier in twee grafte begrawe is, om met die plaaslike goewerneur en onderburgemeester van die omgewing te vergader.

    Hulle het toestemming gekry en die Angolese ambassade in Pretoria het selfs met die groep se reisdokumentasie vir die opgrawings gehelp.

    “Alles het ’n week gelede goed begin en ons het wéér met die plaaslike leiers vergader voordat die forensiese antropologiese span onder leiding van prof. Maryna Steyn van die Universiteit van Pretoria sowat 2 ton grond uitgegrawe het.

    “Voordat hulle begin het, het die plaaslike inwoners selfs ’n ritueel gehou om van die dooies afskeid te neem. Ons moes heelwat voorraad – van hoenders tot bier en wyn – en $750 aan die plaaslike stamhoofde betaal.

    “Die volgende oomblik het ’n klomp swaar gewapende polisielede én van die mense met wie ons die vorige dag om toestemming vergader het, opgedaag en gesê ons moes alles staak.”

    Volgens Opperman was die span in dié stadium sonder genoeg vervoer en wou die polisie aanvanklik $3 600 hê om vervoer te reël. Net ná middernag het ’n konvooi soldate en polisiemanne opgedaag en is die groep beveel om in die vangwaens te klim.

    Selfs die span se Namibiese logistieke steunspan moes oppak.

    Aan die span is gesê hulle kan terugkeer wanneer hulle in Luanda die nodige permitte gekry het. Uiteindelik is hulle ná 14 uur by die Suid-Afrikaanse ambassade afgelaai.

    Toe die logistieke span later by die kamp opdaag om klaar op te pak was ’n groot deel van hul toerusting gesteel.

    “Dit is geweldig traumaties vir veral Leon Lombard en Martin Thompson wie se broers se oorskot waarskynlik dié was wat klaar blootgelê is voordat ons die grafte moes toegooi.”

    Opperman vermoed daar was ’n dispuut tussen verskillende departemente oor toestemming vir die uitgrawings.

    Hy is egter vol moed dat die vier eindelik wel huis toe gebring sal word – die paar honderdduisend rand aan verliese ten spyt. Al die geld vir die poging is geskenk.

  • Peter Pan

    ?

  • John Roberts

    What bullshit. All de Klerk reveals is the dark underbelly of de Klerk and nothing else.

    We could say that your articles reveal the dark underbelly of moffies.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    John Roberts
    May 14, 2012 at 7:49 am

    Hey Hey JR,

    Nice to see you again, shithead!

    We missed you – Dworky and I tried a seance and Milpark H/I.

    All we got was loud grunting noises from the floor above – was that you?

    Come back soon – we miss you.

    I have a new mortal enemy now – Dm, but he’s not as much fun.

    What’s news from racist heaven (Manley)?

    I bet being only with other racist White people is not as much fun as being with South Africans.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    We need major change in Mangaung so we can try to repair the damage that the Zuma presidency has caused.

    PRESIDENT Jacob Zuma is an agent of chaos. The antithesis of King Midas. Everything Zuma touches turns to turds.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/columnists/2012/05/13/chaos-theory-is-no-way-to-govern-a-country

  • Eric Bornman

    FW and his comrades, Meyer, Wessels and Botha will remain traitors until the end of days, receiving gold bullion to sell their souls and kill their concisions. Question to all the Liberals out there:” Will RSA be a Germany or a UK in the next 40 years?”. Answer:” NO” Racism has moved from right to left, that’s all. Verwoerd built 1000 000 houses for the blacks in one year, they are still standing…..can’t say the same of the rdp mud huts…. the top “mis-leaders” of the government and their comrades are better off … the average black man on the street received voting rights and that is it! A country run by corrupt officials and criminals…there is no bright light out there. BEE instated by de Klerk and his wealthy communist leaders remains wrong and racist. The constant whining of the Maxes out there (because they have been left out by their brothers) does nothing more than create constant bowl movements.
    Fact of the matter is that the Chines are stealing our minerals and infrastructure while lying politicians (all of them) quibble about striking, stay a ways and marches. Government un-officials are up in arms about being bugged in their offices, listen dush bags, you are monitoring us with your fusion centres in Sophia Town and other places, every call and electronic transaction being recorded, what is that? A, flippen, communist, police state!!! You idiots are not above the law receive what you dish. Freedom you promised your people, freedom they will never see, thanks to you…
    FW you are a lying scum bag! Could not keep a marriage together and could not govern, could not keep a proper law firm together and still can’t talk the truth.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    JR, I, too, am delighted that you are back. Now that you live in Manley, it would be lovely if you could facilitate a “satellite” blog called ‘Australian Constitutionally Speaking”. That does not of course mean we do not welcome your wise insights here in your old country.

    One small thing though. The fight against RACISM remains very important here. Best to avoid using idioms of the form: “DARK underbelly of X”. If a particular belly strikes you as sinister, try using the adjective: “WHITISH.”

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Eric Bornman

    “The constant whining of the Maxes out there …”

    Eric, be more specific. Do you mean Du Preez, Ozinsky or Sisulu?

  • Eric Bornman

    @ Mikhail, sorry, you are right. Du Preez.

  • Kyle

    @Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “Dmwangi, if I did not know — as a fact — that you blacks enjoy a comprehensive immunity to the VIRUS of racism.”

    How is it that white South Africans are more than capable of racism but that black South Africans are ‘immune’ to it?

    I am not denying that racism exists amongst white South Africans; I just do not see how racism is somehow limited to a particular race group, or how any one race group can be absolutely incapable of being racism.

  • Thomas

    “Class privilege, and the power it confers, is often conveniently misunderstood by its beneficiaries as the product of their own genius rather than generations of advantage, stoutly defended and faithfully bequeathed. Evidence of such advantages is not freely available. It is not in the powerful’s interest for the rest of us to know how their influence is attained or exercised. But every now and then a dam bursts and the facts come flooding forth.”

  • Thomas

    AUBREY MATSHIQI: New racism erases sins of apartheid with ANC’s
    One of the problems of our postapartheid reality is the attempt to construct a nonracial society on the basis of lies and the manipulation or distortion of truths about the relationship between our past, the present and the future

    AUBREY MATSHIQI
    Published: 2012/05/14 07:45:41 AM

    ONE of the problems of our postapartheid reality is the attempt to construct a nonracial society on the basis of lies and the manipulation or distortion of truths about the relationship between our past, the present and the future.

    In the same way that nostalgia buries in our subconscious things we are either ashamed of or refuse to be ashamed of, the evils of apartheid are beginning to recede into what in Xhosa we call “ichibi lokulibala” — the lake of forgetfulness.

    In reality, those who swim in this lake are not suffering from amnesia. They have found a way of foregrounding from our apartheid past that which they want us to believe was noble about the crime.

    To accuse them of guilt substitution as I have done in the past is actually not correct, because they feel no guilt for presiding over one of the most evil periods in human history.

    In fact, as I argued last week, what they are trying to do, with some success, is to impose a counterreality in which the sins of apartheid are being erased by the sins, failures and weaknesses of the African National Congress (ANC).

    The intention is to erase the racism of the past and present with the corruption, lack of delivery, moral degeneration and the pursuit of narrow individual interests which, for reasons I will unpack in another article, form part of the dominant narrative in South African politics and radio talk shows.

    In other words, apartheid was not so bad after all. And because apartheid was not so bad after all, as evidenced by the unbridled racism of those who respond online to columns and articles that are published in this newspaper, the arrogance of some white people has itself become a significant component of this dominant narrative.

    What I have described is part of another problem of postapartheid SA — the fact that racism has become the sauce that makes meals more sumptuous at the dinner tables of some homes and the dinner parties of those who have learnt not to be racist in public spaces.

    Further, racism is a virus that mutates not always in response to a changing and hostile environment, but in response to an environment that has changed, but not to the detriment of the accumulated benefits of apartheid.

    In short, the difference between a verkrampte apartheid leader who was honoured with a Nobel prize and the ANC government is that, for 46 years those who now deny that they benefited from apartheid and that the racial content of post-1994 developmental and economic indicators is a product of apartheid, supported the criminal apartheid state because it delivered effectively to them.

    The fact that some economists are beginning to attach themselves to this logic of denial by peddling lies (statistics) disguised as economic truth does not fool all of us, at least not all the time.

    And as long as these lies persist, I will continue to write about the connection between apartheid logic, the social, cultural and economic marginalisation of those who are victims of apartheid, and the failures and weaknesses of the ANC.

    As for FW de Klerk and those who are created in his image, the time has come for the rest of us to declare that apartheid denial is the moral equivalence of Holocaust denial.

    The problem, however, is that some among us will refuse to see the moral equivalence because, after all, the victims of apartheid are not as human as the victims of the Holocaust and the concentration camps of the so-called Anglo-Boer War.

    Having said that, we must not be diverted from the daunting task of building a nonracial and prosperous society by the apartheid denialists in our midst.

    In addition, we must not squander the anger of moderate voices because it may find expression in the words and deeds of those bent on charting an extremist and polarising course.

    Also, we must not allow voices of reason to be abused by those who seek to use them as a buffer zone between the aspirations of the majority and the fears of apartheid denialists.

    • Matshiqi is research fellow at the Helen Suzman Foundation.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Kyle

    “How is it that white South Africans are more than capable of racism but that black South Africans are ‘immune’ to it?”

    Kyle, I can only speculate that Africans developed their unique immunity to racism over the course of tens of thousands of years of natural selection in the specific climatic, ideological and geopolitical environment of sub-Saharan Africa. Gwebe and Pierre will give you further details.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    Thomas says:
    May 14, 2012 at 11:33 am

    This man Matshiqi took these words right out of my mouth.

  • Brett Nortje

    Matshiqi is singing for his supper. FW is dissing his product – what is he gonna sell if that becomes a trend?

    What is he gonna do for a living then? At his age?

  • Gwebecimele

    Maggs and Brett

    Should we start serving bobotie, briyani and koeksistters at our branch meetings to attract minorities?? See the resolutions at the end of this article.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-14-zuma-comes-and-goes-but-the-song-remains-the-same

  • Fanie Oosthuysen

    Your view that apartheid was based on a view that whites are superior is based on marginalist thinking and untrue/false meme/myth and very uninformed.

    That it is wrong for any government to enforce anything other than securing individuals is a fact, this includes apartheid. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to be separate, forcing integration is equally wrong. It is on exactly the same level.

    People should be free to do as they please as long as they don’t trample those same freedoms of others.

    FW defends the right of a specific minority that wanted and maybe still wants to follow their own individual culture. His authoritarian approach to anything politics (as with the same approach from our current government) is terribly unethical though.

  • Zoo Keeper

    This is a poor piece of emotional rubbish.

    Really, this says more about the author than the subject.

    De Klerk was asked for his views, and because his views were not cut from the mythological cloth surrounding Apartheid, he is crucified. I feel sorry for him, he is entitled to his views, and his views are actually quite valuable in deciphering Apartheid from the PC-brigade.

    I think this says more about those condemning him than it does about him. Those condemning him are utterly revolted by how mundane his views were, how sensible they actually sound – referring to the old Czechoslovakia and how that has now become a number of smaller states based on national identity (Czech Republic, Slovakia etc.).

    His views are credible, but offend because those watching wanted him to prostrate himself on the altar of political correctness. Big up to De Klerk for holding the line and giving us his own personal views. These views are important to the historians amongst us who can see Apartheid in context and not the product of some special group of psychopaths.

    Apartheid did not arrive by accident, and De Klerk’s views of what it was supposed to be makes sense. Apartheid’s origins arise in the Great Trek and the Afrikaner’s wish for self-determination. Things were going OK and then the Afrikaner dream was brutally smashed by the British, who still knew how to fight a war then. The physical annihilation of that dream drove further rebellion during WW1, 1922 and of course many sided with Germany in WW2 because they were against the British. The NP only got about 32% of the vote in 1948 but the Westminster system saw them get more seats. And now they started building the Boer Republic from scratch.

    This meant that other tribes must piss off, or only be allowed in for menial tasks. The English were still around and it burnt the Afrikaner but they were kept out of State stuff by job reservation – for white Afrikaner males, so they became useful tax-payers. Even military platoons were often segregated on language grounds.

    The picture of a unified white South Africa is a pathetic myth.

    De Klerk’s views on the failure of Apartheid are correct to a degree – the Afrikaners/whites got too greedy. They wanted too much land and took it by force. The races became economically interdependent as the mines needed more cheap black labour because there weren’t enough whites. And of course, not everyone shared their world view, parts of the white population and of course the majority of the black population did not agree that this was the way to go. So there was rebellion afoot that became too hard to contain and the NP got taken into war as the USA’s proxy in Angola, which began the beginning of the end for local support.

    Let’s keep our eyes open for the how and why of Apartheid shall we? There were some terribly mundane reasons for it, but because De Klerk has voiced them, he is suddenly a bad guy? WTF did you think? He was the NP president FFS – a real believer, not a struggle stalwart!!

    What really upsets people is the normality with which he spoke, and how normal he is. He is no ogre, just someone who thought he was doing the right thing and something that made sense.

    Just like many Nazi’s were not bad people, but they did what they did thinking it was the right thing to do. That is the really scary part, how normal these people really are.

    So if you disagree with De Klerk’s views hypothetically answer a few questions:

    What if the whites weren’t so greedy for the land?
    What if it had been possible to set up individual countries based on ethnic identity?
    What if the races had not become economically interdependent?

    I think he may have a very debatable point – Apartheid did not fail because it was morally reprehensible (although it was), but for more mundane operational reasons.

    I think he raised a fascinating point, and one that may have some legs.

    Poor knee-jerk Prof, very poor.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Kyle

    What is racism? I will only have a follow up once you have answered this question.

  • Gwebecimele

    Brilliant quote Thomas.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele

    @ Kyle

    This community must mantain the same levels of hygiene as their counterparts in Sandton. All communities/races have the same capability.

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2012/05/14/new-toilets-dangerous-and-useless

  • Gwebecimele

    What ever ate the so called “Zuma tapes” is a about to swallow something else.

    http://thenewage.co.za/detail.aspx?news_id=50650&cat_id=1007&mid=53

  • Lisbeth

    @ Zoo Keeper

    Your comment just about said it all. Many thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Zoo Keeper
    May 14, 2012 at 13:59 pm

    Hey ZooKy,

    I’m not convinced that apartheid (vs the apartheid state) failed – much of it’s undertones still exist.

    Reading much of the comments here does not lead convincingly to the conclusion that the “the evil was interred with the bones of the apartheid state”.

    p.s. “I feel sorry for him” – you should, he’s actually quite a sorry fellow.

    “he is entitled to his views” – fortunately for him, he lives now in a democratic state. Do you think those who think he stuffed up are entitled to their views?

  • Mziwamadoda Pongolo

    I think the second phase of South African struggle has just begun. There is a lot of issues that are still covered by the notion of ‘rainbow nation’ which i personally see it as a musk covering the true face of South Africa today. There is a Xhosa saying that says, ‘kungaqhuma kubasiwe’ meaning the smoke is the confirmation of the fire which is not seen, for me this confirms the untold reality of race problem in South Africa. Infact I personally experienced it in the work place, where a white woman had told me in my face that she hates me, and she rather give a lift to a dog that giving it to me. That for me was an insult, in addition to that a wake up call that South Africa is far from the South Africa envisioned by the Freedom Chater. Take Mr De Klerk’s remarks and relate them to Mr Murlder’s comments on the land question in Soputh Africa, what do you get, the ailing Mr de Klerk at his age to say such a divisive utterence, he is communicating something, to who I don’t know, believe me this is just the beginning of something big and maybe detrimental to the nation that we all love, am sorry for being honest, this is how I see the status core,

  • Mziwamadoda Pongolo

    I think the second phase of South African struggle has just begun. There is a lot of issues that are still covered by the notion of ‘rainbow nation’ which i personally see it as a musk covering the true face of South Africa today. There is a Xhosa saying that says, ‘kungaqhuma kubasiwe’ meaning the smoke is the confirmation of the fire which is not seen, for me this confirms the untold reality of race problem in South Africa. Infact I personally experienced it in the work place, where a white woman had told me in my face that she hates me, and she rather give a lift to a dog that giving it to me. That for me was an insult, in addition to that a wake up call that South Africa is far from the South Africa envisioned by the Freedom Chater. Take Mr De Klerk’s remarks and relate them to Mr Murlder’s comments on the land question in Soputh Africa, what do you get, the ailing Mr de Klerk at his age to say such a divisive utterence, he is communicating something, to who I don’t know, believe me this is just the beginning of something big and maybe detrimental to the nation that we all love, am sorry for being honest, this is how I view the status core,

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    I feel sorry for him on this point and being taken hopelessly out of context.

    All are entitled to their views.

    And I am on record, despite feeling sorry for the old geezer this time around, as saying that the entire National Party membership and their immediate families should have been placed into insolvency in 1994 to repay the cash and State property they stole. And they stole plenty – not as much as the ANC has, but they are the only true beneficiaries of Apartheid.

  • Brett Nortje

    Mziwamadoda Pongolo says:
    May 14, 2012 at 17:39 pm

    By your logic I should blame all black people for the 8 guys who tried to stab me and would have stabbed my dad for sure if I had not shot one in the leg???

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go! says:
    May 14, 2012 at 17:09 pm

    Good point. Many of the undertones of Weenen still exist and Blaauwkrans.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 14, 2012 at 18:11 pm

    hey Goofy,

    “if I had not shot one in the leg???”

    You are such a liar!!!!!!!!

    You told us that you were unarmed.

    Your father was eating your dog in his bakkie.

    100 people were cheering.

    You were counting the audience while eating a Big Mac.

    And there were 11 guys.

    Mainly you were unarmed and did not even have to brush your hair afterwards.

  • Mziwamadoda Pongolo

    No, I am not blaming white people here, of course I look objectively at things and my analysis of issues is imperical, with the example that i made about the white lady insulting me i was making a point about the extent of racism in the 18 year old democratic South Africa, which i am tempted to believe that after all these years for a 50 year old individual to say that to a twenty nine year old, I was shocked, extremely shocked. but objectively speaking, this was an indication that there is more that is under the carpet,

    With the examples that I made comparing the remarks by Mr Murlder and Mr De Klerk, I am trying to reflect the power and influence that the statement that a leader makes, both Mr Mulder and Mr De Klerk are venerated in the white communities in particular, and therefore they have influence, and in addition to that when they speak they speak on behalf of the people (whoever the person is),

    Taking into account the fragility of our nation, one has to be very careful of what s/he says, especially if one is a leader/ if one has influence,

    whether we like it or not something big is still to happen in South Africa, whether it happens because of race problem between blacks and whites or the country gets drown in the corruption culture by the so called leaders of South Africa today, or the poor responding to the agony and pain that is caused by the unhealthy, evil, inhuman, brutal gap between the poor and the rich in South Africa,

    This is what I was triying to communicate, it has nothing to do with blacks and whites as you’ve tried to put it, it is my first time I partake to this kind of debate or discussion, I think I like it,

  • Brett Nortje

    I am glad you like it. I hope you are not put off by Maggs and come back again and again and again.

    It is disturbing that you do not like it when De Klerk and Mulder tell the truth. If the truth was always easy to hear no-one would ever lie. (OK, so maybe some in the ANC could not help themselves!)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Mziwamadoda Pongolo says:
    May 14, 2012 at 19:09 pm

    “both Mr Mulder and Mr De Klerk are venerated in the white communities in particular,”

    I would say that is highly debatable. If any thing mr. Mulder’s party pulls about 1% of the Afrikaner vote and his constituency still refers to mr. De Klerk as a traitor.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    “As for FW de Klerk and those who are created in his image, the time has come for the rest of us to declare that apartheid denial is the moral equivalence of Holocaust denial.”

    I don’t know how ever hard I try I cannot find any evidence that De Klerk ever said that Apartheid never happened.

    I honestly think it is disingenuous, profoundly dishonest and rather disrespectful towards the victims of the Holocaust to make such bizarre comparisons.

    “The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, “whole” and kaustós, “burnt”),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, “catastrophe”; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban,[3] from the Hebrew for “destruction”), was the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler, throughout Nazi-occupied territory.[4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds perished.[5] In particular, over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]

    Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis’ genocide of millions of people in other groups, including Romani, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other political and religious opponents, which occurred regardless of whether they were of German or non-German ethnic origin.[8] Using this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims is between 11 million and 17 million people.[9]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

  • sirjay jonson

    De Klerk spoke as he sees it. Why the inflated problem with this man who made freedom in SA possible. Because without him, there would have been civil war, and my guess is that the majority would have lost., not that they would recognize this.

    So many are so sensitive and so willing to jump at any little issue to criticize and condemn, most currently represented by the trolls and those who think they know it all, as we elders once thought once when young.

    Witness the fuss about Zille and the DA with the recent PP leaked pre-decision and all the paid trolls with their joyous misguided vehemence, as though they think their comments make a difference.

    One can laugh out loud at the silliness and immaturity of the onslaught of these juvenile trolls, all salivating at any slightly possible yet un-thought grasp of understanding, to criticize Zille, the madam (and when did the Afrikaans word ‘Madam’ become evil) as though their words make any difference at all. Who among you doesn’t see through the duplicitous misery of misguided trolls.

    South Africa, you’re a hoot: its much fun watching it all unfold, fascinating, and yet at the same time much sadness at the poverty being officially ignored, even promoted, not just by government, but by the self seeking sycophants who care for no one but themselves. Caeci caecos ducentes.

    Either we accept the many unlimited various opinions with understanding and tolerance, or those who know no better reject them severely, and possibly both physically and violently, driven by hate, and thus perpetuate hate unending, producing no benefit to this glorious and most promising country.

    Grow up SAfrica. Have courage, renounce ignorance, accept the differing opinions, and recognize the disease of youth, that of immature emotion and misguided loyalty.

    Cheers from a dorp where life is still very good.

  • Brett Nortje

    Sirjay, 18 years have been wasted that way…

    Pissed away.

  • sirjay jonson

    And while I’m on a role, and well knowing that Prof will likely post a new blog tomorrow, so this post of mind will not be read.

    It amazes me how many of the posters criticize the Prof, refer to his sexual orientation or health status as though that has any reflection of his skills or ability to discuss Constitutional issue.

    Shame on you, all you who do this with abandon. Rather enjoy and recognize his blog as a gift, to you. Obviously, if he didn’t blog you wouldn’t have the chance to voice your words of personal wisdom, or invective. How fortunate you are to have the opportunity.

    One of the greatest disappointments in life is to not recognize, and to not be recognized for what you offer, especially that which is offered for no other reason than to benefit, uplift and further those who have interest.

    South Africa is actually immature in my view. But that can change, and it changes with you and me. All the best. Gesondheid van ‘n Suid-Afrikaanse Cdn engels man.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    sirjay jonson
    May 14, 2012 at 20:38 pm

    Hey Sirjay

    “Shame on you, all you who do this with abandon.”

    You meant “Shame on you, all you who do this with GAY abandon”, didn’t you!!!!!!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Brett Nortje
    May 14, 2012 at 19:45 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “I hope you are not put off by Maggs and come back again and again and again.”

    You’re just being un-neighbourly – racist!

    I was organising a welcoming event for Mziwamadoda Pongolo – and a weekend induction course with Dworky at Milpark H/I.

    Will you donate generously???

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    Considering Stalin murdered almost twice as many Jews, one wonders why the Germans get all the credit. The Russians were a Western ally after their pogroms so I suppose it wouldn’t do to admit that such a man was your ally…

  • Zoo Keeper

    The Prof sections De Klerk’s “nation states” into black and white.

    Man that is far off, each homeland was created around an ethnic identity – Kwa-Zulu, Trankei (Xhosa), Venda, Tswana, Pedi, etc.

    It wasn’t black and white professor, but very, very grey.

    Please engage with your history before engaging in histrionics…

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Zoo Keeper says:
    May 14, 2012 at 21:57 pm

    Yep. But while this is the thread of making shit up as you go, selective amnesia and historic revisionism let us not forget about those millions of Jews that the evil Nazi Afrikaners murdered during the Holocaust – it was only Barney Barnato and Harry Oppenheimer who miraculously escaped the boer gas chambers.

  • Dmwangi

    What’s the controversy???

    ‘Cape Town – Former president FW de Klerk sought to remind the world on Monday that he helped abolish apartheid, following criticism over comments he made last week.
    “May I remind everybody that it was me, together with the fellow leaders of the National Party, who abolished apartheid on 2 February 1990,” he said in Cape Town.

    “Why would I have nostalgia for that which I abolished and for that which I apologised? I don’t want to get into the twisted interpretation of what I’ve said.”

    De Klerk was speaking at the opening of The Scoin Shop in the city.

    He said that he was optimistic about the country’s future, despite many “challenges”.

    These included the lagging growth rate and high unemployment rate, he said.

    “We know that our education system is in a crisis, we know that people are protesting in the streets about bad delivery, so we’re not in a good place in the socio-economic sense of the word.

    “Fortunately, we are implementing well-balanced economics, macro-economic policies and I’m not a pessimist at all,” he said.

    “What is wrong in South Africa can be put right and I think that it’s time we all join hands, stop shouting at each other and we work together to improve things.”

    The remarks that raised the ire of many were made during an interview with De Klerk at a summit of Nobel laureates in Chicago on Thursday nigh.

    Asked whether he agreed that apartheid was morally repugnant, De Klerk said: “In as much as it trampled human rights it was, and remains, morally indefensible.”

    De Klerk then reportedly said about the homeland system: “But the concept of giving, as the Czechs have it now, and the Slovaks have it, of saying that ethnic unity with one culture with one language [everyone] can be happy and can fulfil their democratic aspirations in an own state, that is not repugnant.”‘

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Zooky is right. Verwoerd etc were only trying to satisfy the implacable demand of each “tribe” to NATIONAL AUTONOMY! Any suggestion that this was an extension of the colonialist preference for “divide and rule” is to dismissed with contempt!

  • Dmwangi

    @MDF:

    I just completed my magnum opus. It is a four hundred page explication of a comprehensive philosophy I’ve been working on known as ‘Queerishness.’ Like particularism, it postulates that there are no universals and all categories are sui generis or ‘queer.’ Logical relations are functions of an undifferentiated transcendental Queer moving history towards its final end in which all things are both One and Queer simultaneously.

    I am submitting it to OUP tomorrow. As the queerest person I know and an eloquent defender of its philosophical merits, I was hoping you would write the foreword. I also invite you to the book signing we will be holding this September at… the Milpark H/I.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    May 14, 2012 at 23:15 pm

    I won’t argue with that. But sometimes I feel if the boers where a bit more robust in their civilising/Christianising mission and followed a path of rigorous integration as they did in Aus we wouldn’t have all these problems with traditional leaders and primitive Zulu presidents today with their sexist piggish attitude towards their many wives.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Zoo Keeper
    May 14, 2012 at 22:00 pm

    Hey ZooKy,

    “It wasn’t black and white professor, but very, very grey.”

    You meant “very, very GAY“, didn’t you?

    p.s. That was inspired by Dmwangi’s (May 15, 2012 at 0:16 am) magnum opus, a four hundred page explication of a comprehensive philosophy he’s been working on known as ‘Queerishness’ – impressive, né!

    Dm, as you know, is among friends – he’s readily acknowledged that he’s a bit “queer”.

  • Brett Nortje

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=171746

    EDITORIAL: SA’s numbers tell a disturbing tale
    Are the three most salient aspects of South Africa’s economy being met on the economic battlefield

    Published: 2012/05/15 08:02:03 AM

    THE three most salient aspects of SA’s economy at the moment are negative real interest rates, a chronic lack of confidence in government and the private sector, and an increasingly uncomfortable political environment.

    This is not a good mix, and the result has been some poor economic numbers, most recently the manufacturing figures published last Friday. Are these salient aspects being met on the economic battlefield, and are they generating as much urgency as they should? It’s complicated, but overall the answer is no.

    Negative real interest rates over a fairly long period are a newish phenomenon for SA, so much so that the implications of this environment are perhaps poorly understood. South African savers probably don’t realise it, but every moment that passes, they are losing money. And this is no trivial issue. It may come as a surprise that SA’s interest rates are negative to a greater degree than Japan’s at the moment. Every business that has a cash balance in the bank is almost definitely losing money, for the simple reason that inflation is higher than the interest rate bank accounts would earn.
    Yet, for the other side of the spectrum, for producers and borrowers, negative real interest rates are a boon. They eat away borrowings and consequently tend to chase capital into the productive economy, and also boost consumption by decreasing the incentive to save. They are the equivalent of jet fuel to the economy. Yet, the curious issue is that even in this highly stimulatory environment, the economy remains sluggish.

    The reasons presumably have to do with the second salient aspect. The survey of economic confidence published by polling company TNS yesterday shows that the economic confidence of metropolitan adults has been flat for the past year, but is still well below the average for the decade. Other data confirm these numbers. The South African Chamber of Commerce and Industry’s most recent business confidence index is at a three -year low.
    What is holding business back is an unusually high level of uncertainty. The economic environment always has uncertainty, but the current intensity is unusual. The most obvious cause is the European crisis, which is of course big enough to worry the most bullish business.

    Yet SA’s exports to Europe are perhaps smaller than many think, about 21,6% of the total.

    SA is, in fact, a much greater importer from Europe.

    The government, because it is such a big player in the economy, can lean against the wind here, and has signalled its intention to do so. The main thrust of its contribution is the infrastructure spending program, which is heralded to perform great things. Yet, as a matter of fact, the public sector’s contribution to capital investment has been extremely low, about 5% of gross domestic product (GDP) for the past 15 years. It has increased with the 2010 Soccer World Cup and the Eskom power station projects, but these have made only a small real difference, perhaps 3% extra.

    The private sector’s contribution to capital investment has been consistent at about 15% of GDP, and it too has recently risen. Although it is hailed in government documents as a new economic thrust, the brutal fact is that infrastructure spending remains merely an incremental contributor. Clearly, there is a major problem developing somewhere between the planning and the implementation phase. The reliance of the government on this grand infrastructure effort and its low level of actual implementation suggests a mismatch between word and deed. Not only does that gap need to be closed, but additional economic measures should be considered.

    But that would require a sense of economic urgency that SA’s political elite seems to lack. With all eyes on factional issues and leadership competition, SA’s economic engine is just not getting the attention, or the leadership, it needs. That needs to change — and quick.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    LOL!!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    Its bad, many businesses are looking out of the borders. The ANC is killing the golden goose and it seems paralysed to do anything about it.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Now this is a surprise!

    As Former President Mbeki would say “fishers of corrupt men …”

    SIU uncovers massive corruption in E Cape health department

    A Special Investigation Unit probe into the Eastern Cape health department has revealed corruption involving R200-million and thousands of officials. …

    The department lost R800-million to corruption between January 2009 and June 2010. – Sapa

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-15-siu-uncovers-massive-corruption-in-e-cape-health-department

    Forget about it being a health care provider to the poor and needy in the Eastern Cape, now we know what the EC Health department does :

    “The department of health is committed to fighting fraud and corruption and anyone accused of such allegations will be pursued, regardless of who they are,” [Health department spokesperson Sizwe Kupelo] said.

  • Brett Nortje

    ZooKeeper, did you see? The Treasury is bullying the SAPS into cutting 9000 cops.

    Pierre and other pinko progressives finessed the SAPS into wasting untold billions to try and disarm me, now more cops are being taken off the beat to try and balance the books.

    While Mdluli has unchecked access to two secret slush funds.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    Whip out the mandamus against the Auditor General.

    You simply have to.

    Even lodging the papers will cause a massive stir…

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ zooky

    Nats should have applied “… Rigorous integration as they did in Aus”

    Zooky, I think that whiny human rights types would have made a fuss if, as in Aus, there was a policy of kidnapping black childre away from parents

  • Anonymouse

    @Michael Osborne
    In your first response above you end with: “The messiness of real history makes it an unstable foundation for modern morality plays.”

    I agree. E.g., we have Dingaan who assasinated Shaka (and killed a few Dutchmen as well) but none of them was good for their people. Then came Mpande and (with the help of a whitey) he overthrew Dingaan. But still, his people were not treated well. In modern time: Zuma ‘assasinated’ Mbeki – but none of them was (is) good for the people. I’m not sure whether it would be Tokyo or someone else, but Zuma will be overthrown by someone soon. But still, his people will suffer. (I think you also referred above to the fact that blacks became 15% poorer and whites 19% richer since 1995 – whose fault is that? Under which regime and un der whose power and ideologies have we been living since 1994?) Whether you date history earlier to 1652 when a few Dutchmen arrived on three sailing vessels and started beatinmg up the Khoi and the San and whomever were there – while at the same time, from the North, the Nnguni tribes came and did the same (or worse) with them; whether you date history to 1947, when the Nat Government in its apartheid manifesto (in a child-like way) promoted separate deve;lopment of these (equally) barbaric and cruel people (white Europeans and African Blacks); or, whether you date history to post-1994, the problems and the challenges remain – how do we make everything better for (all) the people. Definitely not by running the country in the way the ANC has done thus far; and, definitely not by running the country in the way the Nats did 1947-1990. “Modern morality plays” should be based on the here and now – not on the past – and, therefore apartheid should no longer be blamed; and, neither should the post-1994 Gravy Train be blamed. The people (all of them) should unite and stand up against ALL the injustices of the past (even the injustices perpetraed and perpetuated in recent times, and set up a government that will not simply promote its own (even personal) good, but one that will be a true government by the people for the people.

    Those are my wildest dreams, and I hope we will reach a point that goes beyond that one day soon now. (By the way – Prof De Vos – your remark above about some of the posts having proven your point to an extent that went beyond your wildest ‘dreams’ appears to have lost its attempt at sarcasm and satire. Had you used the word ‘nightmares’, it would have been a much more powerful remark, but, by using ‘dreams’, you create the impression that you actually enjoy the subject that you were dreaming about.)

  • Sine

    Anonymouse says:
    May 15, 2012 at 10:40 am

    “and set up a government that will not simply promote its own (even personal) good, but one that will be a true government by the people for the people”

    Very well said in respect of the above. However, I doubt that will happen anytime soon when you consider how eager most white people are to pretend that Apartheid did not happen and/or that they were and still are not the beneficiaries thereof. This in fact is the very same reason why I dont trust the DA. I fear that the moment the DA gets into power we will all pretend that Apartheid did not happen and that we will all start on a clean slate (meaning of course that white people would get to keep what they looted from blacks and the blacks would have to be the working class all their lives without any meaningful ownership of land and other resources like capital. I am not advocating for pepertual white guilt about Apartheid but the eagerness of white people described above scares me.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Sine

    You don’t advocate white guilt for perpetuity but you advocate essentially complete economic destruction of whites.

    How do you propose to carry that out, to whom will the assets be transferred and how will the money be distributed?

    Once that is taken care of, what will happen next and will it all be happiness and bliss?

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Anonymouse
    May 15, 2012 at 10:40 am

    Hey Doc Mouse,

    We may choose to interpret history in any which way we choose.

    And of course we can highlight all that is currently wrong in our Constitutional Democracy.

    I said somewhere above that no one is able to say what our country would have been like if colonisation and apartheid happened – maybe we would have been better, maybe worse, maybe the same.

    None of this mitigates the evil that apartheid was and its awful legacy!

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    How do you forgive someone who won’t admit they were wrong?
    Instead they pull out all sorts of flimsy excuses to justify their wrong behaviour & tell you to “get over yourself.”

    The attitude that Prof de Vos writes about & that is clearly on display on the comments section above is the reason why there will be only ever be limited reconciliation in this country & without proper reconciliation, we will never have a cohesive sense of nationhood (we the PEOPLE, instead of we the blacks, whites / Afrikaaners etc) & we will instead edge ever closer to an all out race / class war.
    The ANC has seemingly sold its soul to monopoly capital already (People forget that it was monopoly capital & not de Klerk who nudged the NP & the ANC together & initiated the negotiations that ultimately ended apartheid.)
    & its leadership have been co-opted & seemingly lost all touch with reality, so the only hope for the real economic victims of apartheid lies in a total overthrow of the current order, for which the current wave of service delivery protests are just a dress rehearsal.

  • Sine

    Zoo Keeper says:
    May 15, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Sorry Zoo, I dont entertain “off the cuff” comments or whatever you call your post above. I replied to Mouse cause I know he has the ability and indeed also the willingness to meaningfully interact with the contents of my post without putting words in my mouth and rejecting same (like you have). But I do retain the hope that you will interact with me at a level higher than the one your post currently proposes.

  • Gwebecimele

    The battle of the Employed vs Unemployed organised by DA and Cosatu is laughable. Why should the Unemployed believe that businesses will look after them better than the current workforce.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Sine

    I posted questions to your remarks about whites keeping what they allegedly looted and you obviously cannot answer. They are perfectly logical questions to the issues you raise in your post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself why you hold such views but are unable to articulate the mechanics of it, or perhaps unable to confront what you are saying?

    C’mon, be brave and give us your solution to your problem and why the DA is so untrustworthy (besides the fact that they are politicians which discounts any trust in my book).

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Sine

    You say you fear that if the DA came to power, it would govern as if apartheid never happened. I am sure you are right. But my question is this: What practical difference would that make? The ANC government had opted for a conservative macro-economic policy. (Praised this week by De Klerk.) The ANC has apparently set its face against redistributive taxation. (For all their whining, white South Africans still pay a relatively low-marginal rate). And land redistribution is basically stalled, or reduced to symbolic gestures.

    So: What do you think a notional DA-led government do differently? I suspect it macro-economic policy would not dramatically differ; the DA has few grievances with Pravin Gordam or Trevor Manuel — and may well keep them on.

    In fact, in the short term, a DA government may actually better serve the poor than the ANC. This would not be by virtue of the DA’s good will. It would simply be that, unlike the ANC government, the DA could never, ever, take the poor black vote for granted. Service delivery might even improve in some respects, as the DA seeks desperately to expand its base.

    No doubt, the ANC government “transformation” program has genuinely empowered a narrow but significant segment of the black middles class. But I doubt that would change under a DA government. In fact, given its extremely tenuously legitimacy, a DA govt would be all the more eager to co-opt class allies into its coalition.

  • Gwebecimele

    PdV

    Here is your quote of the week.

    “Uyayibona ke le ANC ye R12″

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/columnists/2012/05/15/the-problem-is-this-r12-anc

  • Gwebecimele
  • Sine

    Michael Osborne says:
    May 15, 2012 at 13:39 pm

    Mike, I am well aware of the ANC govt’s failures. However, I believe the inadequacies of the ANC govt, as you have eloquently put them, are due, to a large extent, to its inexperience in governance and quite a few bad apples who are dragging the party down. The ANC may have been around for over a century but the fact remains that it has a few years in the governance of the country. I am willing therefore, to grant it an extended period within which to remove its bad apples and learn on the job. I can’t reasonably expect everything that those who governed before the ANC screwed up to be fixed in only a few years. I do not believe that the DA is an option for me at this juncture. ANC, with all its obvious flaws, is still the best party for me. There might come a time when most black South Africans trust the DA enough or some other party to vote for it but that time is not now.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Sine

    “the inadequacies of the ANC govt, as you have eloquently put them, are due, to a large extent, to its inexperience in governance and quite a few bad apples”

    Sine, you misunderstood me. I was not addressing myself either to the ANC’s “incompetency”, or the alleged corruption. The “inexperience” you mention, and the “bad apples” in the ANC, are not here relevant.

    Rather, I was talking about big-picture policy items, and the implementation thereof. The fact is, and I think you agree, that the ANC has as a matter of practice pursued broadly pro-business policies that have, as it turns out, favoured whites middle class blacks. The DA, in the most unlikely event it took power, would continue on more or less the same path, albeit with differences in emphasis. The only short-term practical difference may be an improvement in service delivery in some areas – not, I emphasis — because the DA as a party cares any more about the poor than the ANC, but simply because the DA would have more to lose from bad delivery than the ANC now does.

  • Michael Osborne

    “white AND middle class blacks”

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Zoo Keeper
    May 15, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Hey ZooKy,

    “You don’t advocate white guilt for perpetuity but you advocate essentially complete economic destruction of whites.”

    I don’t see how forcing those who benefited from mining in the past, leaving behind the trail of destruction (like the AMD) to fix up the shit is “complete economic destruction”.

    There’s more – a whole lot more and a whole fucking lot worse.

    People can come up and implement practical ways and meaningful contributions to fix up the mess that they left us all.

    Instead we hear constant moans and groans about how their kids cannot get into universities which “they pay for”.

    Arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhh!

  • Brett Nortje

    Sine says:
    May 15, 2012 at 13:58 pm

    LOL! How many more ghastly 5-year terms, do you think it will take?

    P.s. Sne, kindly be more specific how I benefitted from your disadvantagement? You do know you were not going to be Oprah anyway?

  • Brett Nortje

    Michael Osborne says:
    May 15, 2012 at 13:39 pm

    Cosatu’s thugs were always going to make effective government and responsive service delivery an iffish proposition.

    South Africa had one bite at the cherry and Thabo Mbeki duffed it.

    If the pretty effective but low-paid white civil service could be captured intact they could have been managed to achieve the ANC’s RDP goals.

    Our racist Gramscian friends could not resist, indulged themselves and forced most of the white civil service out to replace them overwhelmingly with incompetents who get a third more in pay than their private sector equivalents and do a fraction of the work.

  • Sine

    Michael Osborne says:
    May 15, 2012 at 14:35 pm

    Yes your thinking is right cause I agree. However, I cant agree on the fact that DA would have had more successes in service delivery than the ANC, despite the fact that it would’ve had more to lose than it. Service delivery, at least I believe, depends also on the funds that each municipality can get in the form of rates. Most of the black areas being very poor and full of unemployed people, even the DA-led municipalities would’ve had problems delivering services to these areas. It would also find problems employing the poor people from these areas when there are local projects since they would be lacking the required skills.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Sine, I was careful to say that there “may” be a “short-term” improvement in some areas” in service delivery under DA rule. I agree completely with you that, in the broader picture, the DA would suffer, and probably fail, under the very same constraints that the ANC does now. My point was that the apparently blind loyalty of many poor voters to the ANC contributes to the failures of service delivery — not so much because the ANC is corrupt or incompetent, but because it is the nature of politics in a democracy that governments respond to political pressure. That should always included the theoretical possibility of being voted out of power.

    This takes us back to the beginning of our debate this morning. You said you feared the DA would govern as if apartheid never happened. My response stands: that is exactly what the ANC government is now doing, in practical terms.

  • spoiler

    MO, I agree with your reasoning. Perhaps Sine means he will miss all the blame gaming that goes on now – instead the DA will just have to govern and deliver or lose the vote. No way the DA could get away with blaming apartheid for dismal delivery…..

  • Sine

    @Michael

    ADD para 1: I wholeheartedly agree.

    ADD para 2: I have a problem with the quoted part; “that is exactly what the ANC government is now doing, in practical terms.”

    That quoted part betrays the failure on your part to consider necessary post-Apartheid Acts like BBBEE, Employment Equity Act, Land Restitution Act, etc., which in effect address or seek to address the inequalities of the past. I concede that the implementation thereof leaves much to be desired and recently it would seem that those responsible have been more involved in filling their stomachs than seeking to address the injustices of the past as mandated by the Constitution. However, I believe that is a phase that will pass and that I will ditch the ANC and be a proud DA supporter or any other party which seems to be in a position to serve my needs in govt, once I have realised that my belief is not justified. For now, my faith lies with the ANC and my fears with the DA, especially in view of the willingness of many white people to brush away the injustices black South Africans suffered in their hands or those of their ancestors and in return for which they reaped and are still reaping undue benefits.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Sine

    “…failure on your part to consider necessary post-Apartheid Acts like BBBEE, Employment Equity Act, Land Restitution Act, etc., which in effect address or seek to address the inequalities of the past”

    Sine, I am well aware of all these well-intention statutes. My point is that, with a some exceptions, the ANC government is just not implementing this legislation in a manner that effectively addresses the inequalities produced by apartheid. The complete failure of land redistribution is just one example. I would expect that a notional DA govt, likewise, would keep such legislation on the books, express the best of intentions, but ultimately follow in the footsteps of the ANC, by ruling the country in a way that tends to maintain fundamental inequalities for years or decades to come.

  • Sine

    @Michael

    We agree then. To be honest, the ANC is not guaranteed of my vote. In 2009 when I was still living in Cape Town I voted for the DA to rule the Province of the Western Cape and the ANC to rule the country. If they keep doing the same crap over again, I will swing my vote to DA or any other party which in my view is better suited to carry my needs forward. But I know the good work of the ANC and I am not voting with my heart. The good work that has been in motion since it took over cant be blocked to my eyes by virtue of the recent indiscretions.

  • Cameron

    I have seldom read a piece so full of self-hatred. No, Professor de Vos, my skin colour does not fill me with a sense of superiority over any of my fellow men. Nor does it fill me with self-loathing. Nor do I have any kinship with you or the beliefs that enable you to purge yourself in thiks fashion. I share nothing with you other than (I presume) a common citizenship and the colour of my skin. But you are as much a cultural, ethnic and racial other as an Eskimo is, so please don’t pull me into your laager based on our common ‘whiteness’. It’s this kind of presumptious arrogance that permeated the National Party and the thinking of the De Klerk you so freely attack. Look inside your own heart and speak to that; you cannot and must not speak for me.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Cameron: AMEN!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Sine
    May 16, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Hey Sne,

    “The good work that has been in motion since it took over cant be blocked to my eyes by virtue of the recent indiscretions.”

    Well noted.

    The essence of Prof MO’s posts, though, does present the conundrum.

    The policies, manifestos, campaigns, programmes of action as well as the shape and character of the ANC is constructed by dialogue and debate over long periods through the contribution and association of people who, broadly speaking, have similar views and aspirations – with which I, and many like me, identify.

    On the other hand, EISH! – http://www.dispatch.za.com/news/article/3367

    So should we continue to vote into power the ANC which is supposed to govern in accordance with what we think is optimal but seems to be, by omission or commission, fucking up wherever that is possible?

    Or should we abandon it for “the greener grass on the other side” (whichever side that may be)?

  • Kusta

    All those who speak about self government of the Afrikaner, please tell me, where do you want your Volkstad? Surely, not in SA nhe??

  • Sine

    @Maggs

    Eish. But I guess we must take comfort in the fact that these illegalities are uncovered and the perpetraitors will be brought to book.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    @ Sne,

    I plagiarise what I wrote elsewhere!

    #justwondering if Steve Biko lying naked on the back of the truck, bleeding, wounded, dying would in his wildest moments have thought that one day the post democratic state governed by the world’s oldest liberation movements would deploy a former apartheid era security branch spy (accused of murder, corruption, stealing state funds and more) to head up police intelligence and become the only policeman in South Africa to authorise bugging and spying;

    If Oliver Tambo would turn in his grave cos he’s too embarrassed to see what is going on above;

    If Mama Sisulu would cry tears watching COSATU agents beating up a defenceless woman;

    If Ismail Mohammed would want to rise again when he learns what has replaced him as the head of the South African judiciary;

    If George Bizos would want to die knowing what a sorry mess the JSC has become;

    If Jesus will really want to come back (as JZ promised) to the sorry mess we’re headed towards (if we all don’t put an end to this).

  • Sine

    @Maggs

    “a former apartheid era security branch spy”

    Are you serious?! What has become of our poor country! Holy molly.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Analysis: Balancing act in placating tradition

    Steven Friedman

    As the former head of an apartheid government was being denounced for defending bantustans, few of us seem to notice that our present government seems willing to revive them.

    This observation is not original – it was made by gender activist and writer Nomboniso Gasa at a panel discussion last week. She asked why we seemed upset that FW de Klerk had partly defended the bantustan policy when government was considering a Traditional Courts Bill, which seems hellbent on reviving bantustans. …

    Under Jacob Zuma’s presidency, the ANC has soundly defeated the IFP in KwaZulu-Natal. The standard cliché used to explain this is that millions voted for the ANC because its president is now a Zulu.

    The more accurate explanation is probably that Zuma knew that the IFP’s support rested on traditional leadership and that, if traditional authorities were won over to the ANC, it would take from the IFP most of its support. It takes no imagination to suggest that many traditional leaders might expect Zuma and his government to repay their loyalty by protecting them from democratic pressures.

    Zuma may not have needed much persuading. His view on tradition is conservative and he might have been happy to come to the aid of traditional authority.

    Though the reason for introducing the bill is unclear, its impact is very clear – it would deny up to 22 million people the basic rights which the rest of us enjoy. It would make worse a reality about which we hardly speak – that, while the middle class in the cities enjoy democratic rights, most people in townships, shack settlements and rural areas are still subject to the power of authority figures who are eager to remain in authority and willing to use force to do so.

    If this bill becomes law, the government will be denying up to 40% of our citizens their rights.

    If we are serious about democracy, we need a campaign to protect it in traditional areas as strong and active as that over the issues which concern the urban middle class.

    http://www.thenewage.co.za/blogdetail.aspx?mid=186&blog_id=2321

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Sine
    May 17, 2012 at 13:12 pm

    Sne,

    “Are you serious?”

    Read and weep!

    ANC activists who were detained in the East Rand are starting to speak out about Lieutenant General Richard Mdluli’s past as a Security Branch policeman. …

    The sources – ANC members, police officers and former Umkhonto weSizwe members – were all too scared to go on record and said they suspected their phones might be bugged

    http://www.citypress.co.za/SouthAfrica/News/Mdluli-was-SB-20120512

  • Sine

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go! says:
    May 17, 2012 at 13:28 pm

    I rest my case.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Kusta. I suppose you meant a ‘volkstaat’ and not a ‘volkstad’ for Afrikaners. The concept of an Afrikaner ‘volkstaat’ may be somewhat outdated, but self-determination and ultimate external self-determination on the basis of territorial sovereignty for Afrikaners somewhere within the RSA’s borders may not be so far-fetched. Afrikaners as an indigenous minority people were as much victims of (British) colonialism as any other ethnic minority in Africa, and since the right of self-determination for a people is a jus cogens right in international law with an erga omnes character, there is absolutely no reason why Afrikaners cannot exercise their right to take care of their own fait in South Africa, even more so since they have become the victims of black majority oppression.

  • Sine

    Cor Ehlers says:
    May 17, 2012 at 14:36 pm

    I presume you are talking about the Self-determination provided for in section 235 of the Constitution. Well, it certainly does not amount to what you are advocating for above. Remember section 1 of the Constitution provides that the “Republic of South Africa is ONE sovereign, democratic state…” (emphasis added). Secondly, section 3 provides that there is a common South African citizenship. These are just two of the many Constitutional provisions, Acts of Parliament, Provincial Acts, Regulations and municipal by-laws such an extensive right of self-determination would be repugnant to. Additionally, South African courts are merely obliged to consider (s39(1)(b)) and prefer (s233) international law in interpreting our legislation. Lastly, last time I checked the principles you invoke to support your argument were not settled in international law.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Sine. Article 235 of our constitution reads: “The right of the South African people as a whole to self-determination, as manifested in this Constitution, does not preclude, within the framework of this right, recognition of the notion of self-determination of any community sharing a common cultural and language heritage, within a territorial entity in the Republic or in any other way, determined by national legislation”.

    Your self-assurance regarding the intention of this article is rather out of place, since even international law experts such as prof. John Dugard SC, lecturer in international law at the University of The Hague and ad hoc judge in the International Court of Justice leaves the following question unanswered regarding the said article in his book: International Law – a South African perspective (2005:109): “Does it mean that all options – including secession – remain open, provided they are determined by ‘national legislation’?”.

    I suggest that you do become more acquainted with the latest developments in international law regarding the right of a people to self-determination and the circumstances which are increasingly leading to secession of territory for full independence. All states, including the RSA with its liberal democratic constitution and ANC government is subject to the jus cogens right of Afrikaners to determine their own fait, and to the erga omnes nature of self-determination for peoples, including minority peoples such as the Afrikaner.

  • Sine

    Cor Ehlers says:
    May 17, 2012 at 15:53 pm

    “…leaves the following question unanswered…”

    What I have quoted above is the exact reason why I did not mention him; he does not assist us here. Secondly, “secession of territory for full independence” would be in breach of the Constitutional provisions I have mentioned, and many others. Please address me as to how you would go around the Constitutional provisions mentioned.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Cor

    Ask the AmaThembu how the self-determination thing went.

    Its there is principle, for sure, but principle can only get you so far in Real Politik.

    All other self determination incidents followed after violent conflict – do the Afrikaners have the stomach for yet another Boer War?

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Sine. Time will tell.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Zoo keeper. You have it all wrong my friend, it was violent conflict which never brought self-determination for minority peoples who were caught up in unitary states, but rather the prescribed route of international law and the guidelines of the international community involving peaceful negotiations, and where such negotiations do not result in a peaceful settlement, unilateral declaration of independence always remains an option as was the case with Kosovo in recent years. Your war talk is inappropriate and repulsive.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Sine. The South African Constitution does NOT preclude secession. Furthermore, if the South African government denies peoples their right to self-determination, they cannot use the Constitution as a defense for this. South Africa is subject to international law and there is growing agreement among international academics that there is in fact a right to remedial secession where the right to internal self-determination is denied or where human rights violations take place.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Zoo Keeper
    May 17, 2012 at 16:36 pm

    Hey ZooKy,

    “do the Afrikaners have the stomach for yet another Boer War?”

    LOL!

    A rag tag bunch of a few angryists is hardly what could be considered “Afrikaaners” – not enough to even consider as spectators at a rugby match let alone an army ready to go to WAR!

    On the other hand, many a few scary fellows will be enough to frighten off our out of shape, out of everything SANDF :P

    Even Brett will not join that mob (especially after the AWB “invaded” the old Bop).

  • Sine

    Cor Ehlers says:
    May 17, 2012 at 17:53 pm

    LOL. You need to catch a wake up call. Your international academics may agree as much as they want to but that wont give them a legal right to trample the internationally recognised right of the RSA to sovereignty and the right to deal with its INTERNAL matters as she deems fit. This argument was raised with much success against international calls against Apartheid both in our courts and abroad. If international law was not “soft law” as you seem to suggest, the wolrd would be a much different place bro. Once again, when international law prescribes something which conflicts with our Constitution, our Constitution, as the supreme law in our country, will prevail. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

  • gksa

    “…but probably morally far inferior to black South Africans.”

    I don’t agree. One does not have to be self-loathing to fight the occurrence of racism wherever one encounters it, even in oneself.

    And isn’t that a generalisation in itself? And generalisations about people where there is no empirical basis for such generalisation is exactly where racism stems from.

    I think it would be far more valuable to teach people about actor-observer asymmetry and the Ultimate Attribution Error (and that it is a natural consequence of how our brains function, but that it can be overcome) rather than teaching them that a false sense of humility gained through prescribing to a vague concept of “racial guilt” is the road to shedding our prejudices.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Cor

    I’m stating it how it is. How did Kosovo make it? Remember the late 1990s? Not a pretty place to be back then.

    If you want self-determination you will have to fight for it.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Sine. People or citizens of a unitary state cannot violate the territorial integrity of a unitary state by claiming self-determination and secession. Ten judges against four have clarified this for the entire world (unless the RSA is not part of it – as you seem to suggest in your statements) in June 2010 in the International Court of Justice in The Hague. And no state can use its territorial integrity as an excuse and at the same time violate human rights left right and centre. As one of the judges referred to above put it so nicely, ‘states’ are not the alpha and the omega – PEOPLE create states, and not vice versa.

    And by the way, there is no proof that secession leads to violent conflict, but rather the denial by the government of the unitary state of a people’s right to self-determination. The denial of self-determination is threatening peace and security, probably more than fragmentation will ever do.

    Let us rather agree to disagree on this matter and see what the future holds.

  • Cor Ehlers

    @Zoo Keeper. You don’t seem to know how Kosovo managed to get external self-determination. The blootbath in the 1990’s, which I followed in great detail whilst living in Europe, never solved any of their problems and the violence which erupted in Serbia, of which Kosovo was a mere province which historically never enjoyed any sovereignty, had to be suppressed by Nato.

    It was only after excellent international legal advice and with the help of a team of experts, mainly international law experts from various countries, that Kosovo embarked on the internationally prescribed route which ultimately brought them full independence.

    You are so right in saying that in most cases independence only follows after a bloodbath, but in my view it is precisely because the politicians involved mislead their followers to the extent that it eventually erupts in violence. A minority of extreme right Afrikaners also believe that their fait can be determined through violence. Fortunately the vast majority of mainstream Afrikaners do not believe in violence as a solution, as was proven in 1994 when what was known as the jewel of Africa was handed over peacefully to incompetent people merely because of their large numbers.

    You may recall from Afrikaner history that the Voortrekker leader, Piet Retief, also negotiated a peaceful land treaty with the Zulu king Dingane in 1838 in the presence of several witnesses, including the British missionary, Owen. What followed is also now history.

  • Sine

    Cor Ehlers says:
    May 18, 2012 at 10:01 am

    “Let us rather agree to disagree on this matter and see what the future holds.”

    I am really tempted to reply to your post but the quote above is barring me. So I have resisted my temptation. Nice posts bro, despite my not agreeing with their contents.

  • Brett Nortje

    Another vignette of the New South Africa:

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Ouma-92-tuis-vermoor-20120518

    Ouma (92) tuis vermoor

    2012-05-18 07:56
    Louise Ferreira en Jani Meyer

    Die lyk van ’n 92-jarige vrou van Johannesburg is vasgebind gevind in die sitkamer tussen foto’s van haar kinders, kleinkinders en agterkleinkinders in die huis waarin sy 70 jaar lank gewoon het.

    Die vrou, van Malvern, se lyk is Woensdag deur ’n buurman gevind nadat familie onrustig geraak het omdat hulle niks van haar gehoor het nie. Haar naam word teruggehou totdat al haar familie gehoor het van die tragedie.

    Sers. Jenny Pillay, polisiewoordvoerder, het gesê die vrou se familie het ’n buurman gevra om te gaan kyk of iets fout is.

    Hy het haar deur op ’n skrefie oop gevind en haar in die huis aangetref.

    Die vrou se kleinseun het gister uit Durban gesê sy ouma was op en wakker en het haar gras nog self gesny. “Sy was klein en redelik verswak, maar waardig en baie trots op haar huis. Sy was ’n regte dame. Wanneer sy gaan inkopies doen het, het sy ’n serpie om haar hare gesit, ’n borsspeld vasgesteek en die bus winkels toe gehaal.”

    Hy het gesê sy ouma is reeds twee keer die afgelope ses maande in haar huis in Persimmonstraat aangeval.

    Sy is albei kere vasgebind.

    “Ons het ’n alarm met ’n noodknoppie laat installeer en sowat twee maande gelede ’n palissadeheining opgesit. Die familie het haar probeer oortuig om na ’n veiliger plek te trek, maar sy het geweier.”

    Hy het gesê die oorsaak van haar dood is nog nie bekend nie.

    “Na wat ons verneem, was vier mans betrokke by eergister se rooftog. Ons neem aan hulle het alles van enige waarde gevat. Haar lyk is in die sitkamer gekry waar sy foto’s van haar kinders en klein- en agterklein-kinders gehad het.”

    Hy het gesê die familie is geskok en hartseer.

    “Sy het nie verdien om so dood te gaan nie. Sy het waardigheid verdien.”

    Pillay het gesê die Cleveland-polisiekantoor ondersoek die saak. Enigiemand met inligting word gevra om ao. Patrick Raletsimo te bel by 083 582 2664.

  • Brett Nortje

    http://www.beeld.com/MyBeeld/Briewe/SA-behoort-straat-na-FW-te-noem-20120518

    SA behoort straat na FW te noem

    deur F.W. van Wyk van Magalieskruin
    2012-05-18 23:57

    Ek kan die dinge wat mense sê oor oudpres. FW de Klerk nie glo nie.

    As ’n jong Nasionalis in 1994 was ek bevoorreg om met De Klerk ’n kort gesprek te voer net voordat hy die amptelike aankondiging op TV gemaak het dat die NP die verkiesing verloor het teen die ANC.

    Daardie dag het hy vir my gesê dat die NP nog 30 jaar lank kon regeer, maar dat dit ’n onreg teen die mensdom is om met apartheid voort te gaan.

    Hy was daardie dag aangedaan, maar geweet hy het die regte ding gedoen.

    Daarom wil ek ’n pleidooi doen op Afrikaneraktiviste in Pretoria om te vra vir ’n straat wat na die manmoedigste leier en grootste held van alle tye genoem kan word.

    En dit net uit waardering vir wat hy ons gespaar het.

  • Francois Nel

    It was time for this to be said…. People need to adjust their way of thinking…. it’s like Bob said…”until the colour of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes, we’ll have WAR!

  • MLUNGU

    Im proud to be white !!!!! Backs are even bigger racits than whites .
    Every time something happens that blacks dont like they (blacks) blame the
    white nation.Text books found under a bridge zuma blames Verwoerd .
    White man kills black he the white is labled a racist even in self defence .
    Black man kills,rapes robs a white person he gets treated as a suspect,top goverment thugs rape , rob the tax payers by upgrading their nquandla kraals then turn around and say those hundreds of millions was just for security.
    Instead of sitting on a rock herding his goats when he was a kid he should of picked up a book and learnt a thing or two .

    VIVA THE MLUNGUS ( A LUTA CONTINOUA )

  • http://none joe

    South Africa is now one of biggest shit holes on earth, while blacks rape and murder with impunity. When the whites are gone the raping and murdering will still go on and on and on, (rwanda). Trying to justify putting black marxists in power is sickening.
    The whites will ultimately win and it will be a backlash like never before seen in history. The genocide will be of black deaths.

  • AM

    Don’t worry, PdV, you don’t need to feel bad about the past anymore. Because here you can see what future the ANC has planned for you as a white person living in SA: http://www.friends4humanity.org. Also, please don’t forget to research what the “2nd transition of the National Democratic Revolution” is all about. You can’t find an article about it at: http://www.sairr.org.za/sairr-today-1/research-and-policy-brief-the-national-democratic-revolution-ndr-its-origins-and-implications-31st-may-2012. Brace yourself, it’s a horror story!

  • Bantu_Education

    I came across this through Cuan Elgin’s Bulala page on FB and will not waste my time writing much more than the comment I posted there, although I feel so enraged by the existence of cowardly and despicable traitors like him whose wilful slander of our tiny defenceless white minority will surely add to the false and unjustified grievances of the real racists – the black man.

    “This Pierre de Vos creep is so full of shit I could not possibly bear to read his long turd of self-hating vomit because I knew it would contain excreta such as this “When we confront the virus of racism that pumps through our veins because we happen to be white, we have to admit that we are not superior to anyone and, in fact, we become, at least, as morally tainted as everyone else, but probably morally far inferior to black South Africans.” So there we have the summary of a white liberals superior wisdom and intellect – whites are inferior to blacks because we are racist and they are not..!! My God, if we are inferior in any way it is only because we seem to breed (excrete) these self-hating demons. No other race does this.”

  • AntiLies

    the only good diversity is diversity among people of the same race.
    the rest is utterly false.
    this article is written by someone who clearly doesn’t understand african culture and how life works in africa: in european standards, it doesn’t.

    africans are brutal, basic people who cannot fit in a western society because they have total disregard for other people’s rights and property.

    an african thinks NOTHING of killing and stealing.

    if you want to know the truth, GO AND LIVE AMONGST THEM FOR 50 YEARS and see for yourself.

  • Common sense

    Well. Pier, you fail to mention the school they had, the hospitals were better then than they are now. The South African government is a joke, cops don’t even have cars, corruption is rife and everyone is in for themselves.
    Tell me, they build shanties WITHOUT many plans, sometimes in the middle of areas, firstly is this not illegal? If I want to build a house I have to buy land get building plans, the works.However they just build, devalue everything around the shanties and the still demand water and electricity? This is just one of a thousand prime examples I can give, there is no logic upstairs and no backbone to do it correctly.

    Unfortunately, the article writer is one of those people who cant see the forest from the trees and yet is the one that points his longest finger?
    Ironic.

    Take a look around you Pier, if you even live in SA, are the police force reliable? Are government institutions efficient? How safe are our roads, especially the Transkei? How much government fraud is there? What is our current credit rating internationally? Why is Eskom unable to meet our electrical demands?

    Ill managed, it is ironic, if I had a job and didn’t perform Id be fired very quickly.

    Shame Pier, the wheels spinning but your hamsters dead!