This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos
From the Mail & Guardian online:
President Robert Mugabe said on Friday that “only God” could remove him from office, as Zimbabwe’s opposition considered pulling out of next week’s run-off election amid escalating violence.
“The MDC will never be allowed to rule this country — never, ever,” Mugabe told local business people in Zimbabwe’s second city, Bulawayo, referring to the opposition Movement for Democratic Change. “Only God who appointed me will remove me — not the MDC, not the British.”
But there was a moment when the mask slipped, and slipped badly. Moffet Mofokeng from the City Press, a mild-mannered, very experienced, and very polite reporter asked simply, “Mr President, the movements in your office, can you give us an update on them?” No hostility, no malice, no agenda. Just a request for information. Zuma became a different person. He leant forward as far as the lectern would allow, “The problem with you guys”, he said, “is that you discuss matters that are not relevant to you, the discussions are confidential, we should end the matter there. Don’t go to speculation, even though that’s your right.” He stopped there. And caught himself. There was a definite pause, then that peculiar grunt he makes whenever under pressure, and he laughed. And ended with, “you’re just trying to make matters confidential not confidential.” – Stephen Grootes on President Jacob Zuma’s post-lekgotla press conference
Archive for Quote of the week »Archive for New from Seminar Room »Archive for New from Updates »© 2010 Constitutionally Speaking | Powered by WordPress
A WordPress theme by Ravi Varma | Created by Blog Meistress
Even now that Thabo Mbeki has broken his silence (seeing that his silent diplomacy is not paying off) by suggesting to Mugabe that he should call off the run-off election; and, an offer that the loser remains the President in the new Zim, with the winner, the 2nd in charge, Bob clings to his constantly diminishing powerhouse. He claims God put him there, and that only God (at last someone who doesn’t think Thabo Mbeki is he) will remove him. Reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw:
“God is dead!” – Nietsche. …
“NIETSCHE IS DEAD!” – GOD
We have a big problem before us. When leaders will see themselves as appointees of God on their people, there is no need for democracy then . I suggest we sacrifice a minute of our time and pray that the Lord processes Mugabe’s exit very fast than planned.
I heard that Mbeki is there to strike a deal. I do not see any possibility of success. Where is the African Union? I have no hope in TM solving those problems. He just does not want to admitt it. ZIM is beyond his control
I didn’t realise God was a registered voter for the Run-Off! Shoudn’t Tsvangirai do some door to door campaigning of heaven then?
“God” appointed Mugabe? Well, if that is so, then it must have been to try the hapless Zimbodians. Any idea, Mouse, why politicians – especially the bad guys – tend to live to such ripe old ages? My theory is: job satisfaction.
By the way, Nietzsche didn’t mean “God is dead” literally. What he meant is that God of late has been unable to act as a moral authority. Or something like that.
But has god really ever acted as a moral authority?
Clara – Well. I spelt Nietzche wrong (fast typing), sorry! But, yes, one can argue on what he meant – just as one could argue on what Julius Malema meant with his ‘paying the higest price’ nonsense. Arguing that He (God) is ‘unable’ to do anything, amounts to arguing that He is dead (does no longer exist), no?
Khosi, remember, God never ‘acted’ as moral authority, man (male and female) was given a free choice in everything. Morality (emanating from God, of course) is an innate virtue, but man chooses what he/she wants to do with it.
Clara, yes, and then again, the bad guys in politics usually live long (e.g., Idi Amin) – Adolph Hitler being the (or one of the) exception(s)? – Job satisfaction? No, I don’t think so. Rather [G]race (pun intended in the case of Bob Mugabe) to let them think (and rethink) what they did wrong, so as to give them (ample / enough) time to make an informative choice on where they want to spend eternity.
The issue of God ‘appointing’ people to do things (especially despicable things, like blowing up Mosques, flying Jets into the Twin Towers or killing opposition supporters) flies in the face of the basics of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (even the Africanist Ubuntu), where God is believed to be the ‘All Loving One’. Bob really has a few chocolates missing from his box.
T, Mbeki strike a deal? Well, has he ever?
Someone once said: “God is mighty slow, … but yet He is always on time.”
Pierre
How about a new thread on the let’s kill for Zuma pandemic? Vavi and Buti are now on the bandwagon and our country just got that little bit less safe.
Here are my initial very serious thoughts:
The Xenophobia violence showed that many young men in this country are willing to even burn people for whatever cause they hold dear. This is not fear mongering, ask the sixty people who died, the hundreds wounded and the thousands displaced. In this context it would be naive to think that we won’t see more violence; it is not inevitable, but can the ANC leadership stem this tide?
It is amazing that the ultra-Zuma supporters say that he can’t ever have a free and fair trial, when they believe he shouldn’t have a trial at all (clear from Malema’s speech). They would not accept a conviction even if the trial was free, since they believe in his innocence.
And as I have said before, a conspiracy theorist can’t be proven wrong, so in their eyes he could NEVER have a free and fair trial. Even in the face of real evidence it can be called fabricated by people you can’t see. I think the normality of daily life should not insulate us from the very real possibility of serious violence if his prosecution continues and these guys are not held in check.
One day foreigners in our country were going about their business and the next they had to flee for their lives and we had almost as many people die as in the Sharpeville massacre and thousands displaced. If the Malema’s decide to act, it will be organised and funded. Who will be safe and who will be targeted? History of African conflicts shows that those who don’t want to join, will be considered enemies, in addition to the real enemies, whoever they may be.
Call me crazy, call me a fear monger, but anyone with knowledge of and a healthy respect for African conflicts, knows that stability often resides on a knife’s (or AK’s) edge.
So I ask not what will lead to more violence happening, since it is clear that the law must take its course and others threatened violence if this course continues. I then ask:
What will keep this threatened violence from happening?
Oh z, I get such a sinking feeling when I hear this stuff trotted out.
Let’s all pledge to work towards an inclusive society, with no dark corners which spook the life out of Malema, and proper Welfare measures so some South Africans who were unlucky enough to have been born into families impoverished due to the sins of white peoples’ fathers don’t starve, go without roofs over their heads and obtain medical treatment & education.
And stop telling people that if a State provides such things, as the UK, Germany, Norway, Italy, etc does, then the State is creating a culture of dependency. Would you rather have poor people dependant for a while whilst they gain the means to grow, or burning people to death and scaring the life out of you?
Mpho
I don’t fully understand your “trotted out” statement and whether or not you mean that you don’t like it when people talk the way I am. ButI’ll clarify some aspects, which I see I might not have made clear.
I am completely and utterly committed, with my whole heart, to reconciliation and uplifting the poor. In the context of my point (which should become clear by the end of this post) poverty is but one aspect of the problem and is a long term problem. I don’t want to side track into a poverty discussion (good arguments can be made that poverty does not cause violence in itself). I think you might have a narrow view of my motives and why I am bringing this up. I am not suddenly on this mission because I am afraid, but because I have been following events closely and studying African history.
Let me also clarify that I am not one of those whites fearing “die swart gevaar” (the black danger). If African history is any predictor then we won’t see any significant large case mobilisation of violence against whites either. Algeria was probably one of the worst and the number of casualties were of limited numbers. Although not impossible this is not what my point is about.
Time and again in African conflicts among the first casualties are the so called traitors. It was no different in SA during the struggle, ask Joe Seremane who lost his brother that way. It is the often talked about “you’re either for us or against us” mentality.
This is where we come to the ANCYL, their statements and recent actions. they have not fully clarified who their so called enemies are but they have listed the following as among them at different occasions:
1. Some ANC leaders.
2. Some parts of the media who resist Zuma.
3. Anyone in the ANC who does not support Zuma.
4. Imperialists.
5. Unseen forces working at night.
6. Those against black majority rule.
One of the implied targets are some in the justice system, hence the relevance to this blog. You, Mpho fit into this category and into number 3 above. (:
Here is a summary of what I was pointing out:
1. We have seen the capacity for violence. (that was my main point talking of Xenophobia)
2. ANCYL have made clear they have the capacity to resort to violence.
3. They are not interested in a fair trial for Zuma. They do not want any trial at all and find the charges ridiculous.
4. They have made threats regarding the charges not being dropped.
Add to this the number of ANC conferences which have seen violence of late and ANCYL’s is a case in point.
Add also the fact that elections can tend to amplify issues.
This is the most basic summary:
They threaten violence if Zuma is prosecuted. The NPA has reiterated that they will not stop Zuma’s prosecution.
What will keep this from happening?
Some interesting reading on ANCYL:
www DOT thoughtleader DOT co DOT za/chrisrodrigues/2008/04/23/ancyl-pty-ltd/
www DOT thoughtleader DOT co DOT za/talkback/2008/06/19/is-julius-malema-getting-away-with-murder/
Especially read the comments from (what I think are) black commentators.
The revolutionary propaganda type speak and the sober concrete speech of others.
z, the ANCYL have reiterated that they intend employing Counsel to argue that the charges against Zuma are thrown out on the basis that the State took too long to bring him to trial. Now that is a fair legal argument which has been used to protect everyone from paedophilic uncles from being prosecuted following the uncovering of suppressed memories in their victims, to, now, people who had previously heard from the mouth of the head of the NPA that the prime facia case against them would not result in a guilty verdict. Now why are you blowing that silly little boy out of proportion?
Secondly, I am afraid that it is only people out with the ANC who conflate support of the ANC (or indeed advancement within the party) with support of JZ. JZ is but one man, whom I honestly believe is being used by far smarter men and political strategists to open up holes in Mbeki’s possie in order that they (the smarter men that is) can fill them.
Now I am willing to stake my name on that pronouncement.
Please z, this is one of the few places where one is able to debate on a reasonably high level with people from across the various social, economic and political spectrums without having to listen to “white men’s angst” trotted out as sage analysis and insight. If you want to hide under your bed because some dim-witted 27 year old with a run away mouth is too arrogant and stupid to say sorry then do it. But I shan’t join you in it and I shan’t keep my mouth shut when I hear you churning it out.
The NPA is able to defend itself. The Con Court Justices are able to defend themselves. And JZ is still on trial.
Rest assured, all is well in the Republic.
Mpho & All
With Tsvangarai out, can Simba Makoni compete for the presidency? Logistics would be impossible but is it possible?
I though Makoni had left the door open to him taking part back in May when he said he’d wait until closer to the time before making his mind up. What about the 4th candidate? What’s his position?
I think Makoni is keeping a low profile in order to position himself as the moderate leader of a Govt of National Unity. But surely, God-unwilling, that won’t come about before 27th of June.
Does anyone think Tsvangarai has backed down because he knew the run-off was to be cancelled anyway?
I asked my Zim boyfriend over and over these questions but he just gives me a withering look and shakes his head at my political naivety, so I’ll ask you lot: as everything was dissolved before the first election, what is the legitimacy of the Govt? Or is Uncle Bob following British Constitutional wisdom, “if it works, it’s Constitutional?” Someone should let him know that that suggests Imperialist forces are at work deep inside him! I appreciate that I always look at this issue via my Constitutional Lawyer prism. Not the best way to view Zim right now I have to say!
I read today that the Electoral law does not provide for candidates backing out of the run-off or provisional arrangements in the event that a run off does not go ahead. So will Tsvangarai look to the Courts in order to litigate an acceptable outcome? Has he been promised Biti’s release if he steps down? What of his remarks that Mbeki has NOT been proposing a Govt of National Unity to the MDC? (Khosi, I’m looking to you on that one!)
(If the run-off could go ahead with the other two candidates, how could the ballot papers be printed in 5 days to exclude the MDC?)
Mpho,
Should one assume that when you say ‘my Zim boyfriend’ it means that when you speak of SA politics you will ask questions and then say ‘my SA boyfriend’ and so on.
Otherwise, i am tired and will catch up tomorrow.
Mpho
Contrary to what you seem to imply, you are not the final authority on what is relevant and intellectual.
You seem to have gained a misplaced sense of superiority from your mastery of logic fallacies, such as ad hominem and straw man. Some of us understand logic and see how your use of these methods stifle debate.
And do not for a moment assume to know my thoughts or intentions; I am not every white man you’ve ever met. Rather stick to the arguments presented and ask for clarification if you don’t understand.
Did you actually read Malema’s speech?
Did you listen to the ones defending him?
Do you even know that successful coups were performed by mere sergeants, not much older than Malema? (And no I am not implying a coup from Malema)
Would you have told the victims of Xenophobia to ignore the threats made by youngsters the day before?
Just because you intend not to attempt some analysis of certain current events, but rather to just perpetuate your preconceptions, does not mean the rest of us should.
I hope all will forgive me for resorting to this lower level of reasoning.
Khosi, I am stupid enough to believe that if I ask him a simple question I will get an insiders answer. But it NEVER happens that way
z, I’m sorry, but paranoia and angst do not equate to logic.
Khosi, Mpho – As far as I have it, Zim’s election laws determine that a run-off in these circumstances may only be held between the two top candidates. Simba Makoni is therefore out. This means that Bob Mugabe would win by default, regardless of whether the election goes ahead. All votes for Tsvangirai, that is, if his name is still on the balot paper after his withdrawal, will be disregarded (not counted) and Mugabe will winn with 100% if the vote goes ahead. Remember Hitler’s Anschluss vote? Same situation here. This will in effect mean that Mugabe rules with a minority ion Pparliament. But he will most probably issue an edict of some kind, enabling him to appoint extra Members of Parliament (that need not be elected) to again gain the majority in Parliament. He already did that as far as the Senate is concerned during previous elections, which means, if he is again elected (appointed) as President, he will be able to adjust the membership in the evenly balanced Senate with so as to show a majority for Zanu PF. I think the devil apointed him, not God.
And your logically deficient resort-to-ridicule-rhetoric does?
Mpho,
I closssssely watched the interview that Mbeki gave on the sidelines of the Mpumalanga imbizo, where he takes time to listen to the people he supposedly does not listen to…… sorry I am getting sidetracked back to my point. He did look like a man whose plan is falling into place. He was quite relaxed about the pull out of Tsvangarai.
As if he needed that to happen for the whole plan to be executed.
Khosi, Mbeki seems to have been quite relaxed about a number of his plans and that they will fall into place.
He reminds me of that great Roman leader – Nero.
It’s time for SA to wake up. There were reports of jews being killed in the UK press, long before WW2. We cant say we did not know.
“Tonderai Ndira was a shrewd choice for assassination: young, courageous and admired. Kill him and fear would pulse through a thousand spines. He was an up-and-comer in Zimbabwe’s opposition party, a charismatic figure with a strong following in the Harare slums where he lived.
There were rumors his name was on a hit list. For weeks he prudently hid out, but his wife, Plaxedess, desperately pleaded with him to come home for a night. He slipped back to his family on May 12.
The five killers pushed through the door soon after dawn, as Ndira, 30, slept and his wife made porridge for their two children. He was wrenched from his bed, roughed up and stuffed into the back seat of a double-cab Toyota pickup. “They’re going to kill me,” he cried, Plaxedess said. As the children watched from the door, two men sat on his back, a gag was shoved in his mouth and his head was yanked upward, a technique of asphyxiation later presumed in a physician’s post mortem to be the cause of death.
The body of the wife of Harare’s newly chosen mayor was found Wednesday, her face so badly bashed in that even her own brother only recognized her by her brown corduroy skirt and plaited hair. On Thursday, the bodies of four more opposition activists turned up after they had been abducted by men shouting governing party slogans.
“They’re targeting people who are unknown because cynically they know they can get away with it,” said David Coltart, an opposition senator.
One such target was Better Chokururama, a 31-year-old activist with an appetite for bravado and fisticuffs, nicknamed “Texas” for both the cowboy hats he favored and the moniker of a torture camp from which he once escaped. He was abducted on April 19, and his legs crushed by his captors with boulders.
He said in an interview afterward, as he lay with both legs in casts, that he had told his captors “that beating people would not change anything because the opposition had beaten the governing party, ZANU-PF, in the elections.”
“They laughed loudly,” he said, “then threw me out of the moving vehicle.” Weeks later, he was snatched again, with two other opposition activists; the three bodies were discovered separately and identified by family members.
But the violence has been aimed not only at campaigners but at voters as well. So-called pungwe sessions, the Shona word for all-night vigils, have become common in areas where people once loyal to President Mugabe dared vote against him in the first round of voting on March 29. Villagers are rousted from their homes and herded together. Suspected opposition supporters are then called forward to be thrashed.
In Chaona, a village in Mashonaland Central Province, a man named Fredrick said he was among 10 suspected opposition supporters tortured for five hours under a tree. One man was caught while trying to escape. “They tied his genitals with an elastic band and beat him until he passed out and died,” said Fredrick, who asked that his last name not be used in order to protect himself. He said a second man was killed after his tormentors dripped bubbles of burning plastic on his naked body.
Prosper Mutema, 34, from Mtoko in Mashonaland East, said he was among dozens captured on June 4, taken to a torture camp and beaten all night with sticks and clubs called knobkerries. In the morning, he was ordered to hand over a cow as a “repentance fee.” Lacking so costly an animal, he pleaded for a more modest penitence, eventually winning his freedom with a bucket of maize meal and a chicken.
Names of the opposition’s poll workers had been published in the newspaper as required by law, and these workers seem to have been systematically identified for nighttime beatings. Hundreds of them have since fled, leaving their polling stations vulnerable to ballot stuffing on Friday, said the constituency’s senator-elect, Misheck Marava. He said his wife and children were savagely beaten with chains and whips.
Then, on June 4 at 4:15 a.m., 13 men led by soldiers attacked the local opposition office at Jerera Growth Point, where some of those displaced by violence had sought a haven. At least two men were killed. The office was set afire with gasoline.
As one of survivor of the blaze, Isaac Mbanje, lay with maddening pain in a Harare hospital, skin peeling from his raw wounds and fluids seeping through the bandages on his charred hands, he described his ordeal.
One of the assailants ordered him: “Lie down! Keep quiet!” Then shots were fired from an AK-47. “One of the guys who was shot fell on my body,” Mbanje said. Then the attackers set both the dead and living alight.
Tichanzi Gandanga, the opposition’s director of elections in Harare, said he was abducted April 23 by men who blindfolded and gagged him and then thrust him into a truck. As the vehicle raced into the countryside, he was badly beaten and stripped before being dumped onto the road, where he was beaten and kicked and then, as he hovered near unconsciousness, run over.
The men attacking him were armed and could have shot him, Gandanga said. He is not sure why they left him alive, or even if they meant to.
“We had an election machinery with some important foot soldiers,” Gandanga said. “These soldiers were identified and eliminated.”
Opposition leaders assumed the carnage would stop once election observers arrived to monitor the vote. But that has hardly proved true.
Emmanuel Chiroto, 41, was elected to represent his ward in Harare. Fearful of attacks on his family, he sent his wife, Abigail, 27, and son, Ashley, 4, to stay with her mother outside the city. But on Sunday, fellow city councilors chose him as Harare’s mayor, and his proud wife came home the next day to celebrate, he said.
Soon after she arrived, he was called away because a ward chairman had been beaten up. While Chiroto was away, two truckloads of men firebombed his home and abducted his wife and child. Opposition party officials hurriedly contacted Tanki Mothae, a Lesotho native who is a key manager of the election monitors from the Southern African Development Community.
“The house was completely destroyed inside,” Mothae said in an interview. “The furniture, everything, was burned to ashes.”
On Tuesday, Chiroto’s little boy was dropped off at a police station. Wednesday, his wife’s battered body was found in a Harare morgue.
Chiroto still has not had the heart to tell Ashley that his mother is dead, he said. The boy told his father he had sat on his blindfolded mother’s lap as she was held captive and then he was left behind as soldiers took her away.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/22/africa/22zimbabwe.php?page=3
Wessel,
What does Nero have in common with Thabo Mbeki?
Legend had it that he played the fiddle while Rome burned.
Khosi
What do you think that plan is? A GNU?
I don’t always trust some of the fuzzy news reports, so I was speaking to a Zimbabwean over the weekend. His immediate family is safe but he knows victims of the violence and confirms it’s existence. I can’t say I know him well enough to vouch for the truth of it, but he had nothing to gain by lying.
I was sent a newsletter from the Anglican Bishop in Harare:
“Persecution meted against the powerless has existed as long as human beings have been around. It causes untold material loss and human suffering. No one chooses or wishes to suffer. Members of our Diocese are being persecuted on allegations by former members of our church that they are gays, lesbians or MDC. Some politicians and police officers have embraced these allegations as truth and are out there to persecute the church of God. Our church buildings remain locked and are declared no-go areas by the police. Some police officers implementing the so-called “directives from above” have gone to the extent of forbidding us to pray even under a tree “because we are gays, lesbians or MDC”.
But Wessel,
Thabo Mbeki has never been an emperor of Rome. Nero, however, has. I fail to find any similarity in you reply.
z,
Personally, I find a post election forced GNU a bit distasteful. I think Kenya set a bad precendence when it came to contesting elections and now the rest of the continent is forced to this type of election result. No Winner, No Loser because the losser threatens violence.
However, I do think a GNU is a solution that TM would have prefered even before the March 29 elections. But the groups were so far apart that it could not be sold without good reason, at the time. Now that there is a clear stalemate, I think its the most feasible way out. TM knows that he needs to remove or at the very least neutralise Mugabe, in order to get money into the reconstruction of Zimbabwe. But Tsvangarai is a regional risk because of his well documented links with the West.
And z, I am not overstating Western influences in African issues. It is there. We as Africans cannot just ‘take our destiny into our own hands’ when the world is still configured the way it is. Remember this is the world where morality and common sense was trampled on to wage a war that will benefit a few and their companies. And what happened to the offenders and the corporate dictators? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. All the UN is doing is to clean up a continued mess of a few.
The best that can now happen, is for these two (Mugabe & Tsvangarai) to neutralise each other. Hopefully for the better.
Khosi, Wessel’s reference to Nero and comparing TM to him is a metaphor – while Nero played a fiddle while Rome was burning, the implication is that TM is smoking his pipe while Southern Africa is burning.
Khosi
I also dislike the GNU thing. On the one hand the precedent thing bothers me too, but on the other it might stall conflict, to give time to work things out (if that is possible at all). I just fail to see it working here given Mugabe and co’s recent rhetoric.
Kenya was a relatively stable country, as far as my Kenyan friend is concerned, with the real problem (amongst the politicians anyway) probably just being who gets the cookie jar. So now their sharing. Zim has so much more problems.
Regarding the West:
Make no mistake, I understand that Western meddling is a problem in Africa. As an example I can remember offhand regarding trade agreements where EU ships fish the coast of Ghana empty and Ghanians lose their livelihood. But then threaten steep import tariffs if they do not sign those agreements, which could cost hundreds of thousands of jobs. Catch 22.
And soon we could see the cold war phenomenon of Western influence springing up again with the threat of China to Western interests in Africa. They don’t attach political conditions to their aid, although snubbing Taiwan might win you a star.
But the problem is to what extent blame can be placed and to what extent responsibility must be taken. (The AU estimated a quarter of GDP in Africa is lost due to corruption) I think this is the dividing line when it comes to disagreements regarding this topic, a pre-occupation with one side of that coin. (when I say coin, I don’t mean half half blame, the real ratio might be different)
But if the West is a threat through the MDC, then I ask someone to quantify that threat. Propaganda thrives on vagueness. (not that I am saying you are a propagandist, not at all)
Would the West funding the reconstruction of Zim, be such a bad thing? If so, then who should fund it? How is that scenario better for the people of Zim?
These are questions that initially come to mind. But maybe this topic is too large for this blog?
Rat,
Of course its a metaphor but let Wessel answer for himself.
Z,
I do not see anything untoward with the West funding the reconstruct of Zim. I say its money made from the proceeds of colonialism anyway. But what conditions would be put in place. I have heard no one from the West or even the MDC saying the land redistribution will not be reversed. That is a very important point of contention for me and its not even being discussed.
As an African I can quantify the threat that is the West by just pointing to the decades of colonialism that officially ended only 14 ago. That is too recent a history to believe that that threat is not imminent.
China is only doing what Africans have been telling the West to do for a very long time.
“I say its money made from the proceeds of colonialism anyway.”
Now that is classic Khosi, hehe. Actually it’s created by the push of a button (:
I did hear one MDC person talking about the land redistribution. But would be talking under correction, if I quote my remembrance now.
Here is an article from a quick search:
www DOT sundaytribune DOT co DOT za/index.php?fArticleId=392387
My paraphrase: They basically affirm the necessity of land reform, but not at the cost of food security, agreeing with the goal not the methods. They also won’t give back land to white farmers who left the country either.
China is a WHOLE other talking point, we can talk about for hours (:
Khosi – “Rat,
Of course its a metaphor but let Wessel answer for himself.”
Okay, would you stop answering on behalf of TM then? (Remember the ‘klipgooiers’ metaphor?)
Z – “And your logically deficient resort-to-ridicule-rhetoric does?”
Sorry for being so ‘logically deficient in resorting-to-ridicule-rhetoric’ above by stating “I think the devil apointed him, not God.” – I was actually hoping to provoke pro-Mugabe supporters after I (logically I hope) set out the position to one of the bloggers’ questions above, namely, whether Simba Makoni could now re-enter the presidential contest after Tsvangirai withdrew. But then again, Prof de Vos’ initial post bears the title “God better hurry up then …” So I take it such remarks are in order? Thing is, I have close contacts with many people in Zim, and I am utterly frustrated and shocked at everything that is currently happening there, and I would seize every opportunity to criticize Bob Mugabe’s renegade government and to campaign for change there. Now Tsvangirai has had to seek refuge in the Dutch Embassy. And Thabo Mbeki looked so smugly relieved when he spoke about Tsvangirai’s withdrawal from the run-off.
Mouse
That was not directed at you! Sorry I was having a bit of a lively issue with Mpho. I forgot to put her name at the top!!!
I was responding to her post right above yours!
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I fully suport honarable president Mugabe’s statement.
He represents our (Black) wholistic political beliefs as Africans.
Until when shall the whiteman tells us what to do?
I regard MDC as an opportunistic party which seeks to perpetrate the western ideology within the southern region of Africa.
Zimbabwe is only our last hope. It is the only counrty representing and still standing for what our forefathers died for.
It is the only African country I (WE) can relate to as Black people.
It is the only country in the world that represents Black revolutionary struggle.
I strongly believe that Zimbabwe as our last hope should not be allowed to follow COWARD country like South Africa, which surrendered the strugle on blacks account. To date, in South Africa the word ‘FREEDOM’ is a mere ideology it’s not existing.
The truth of the matter is as Black country, we only left with one choice. WHICH IS AS FOLLOWS: If you want your country to be economic independent you must suck the whiteman’s ass of which choice we chose here in South Africa. The reason South Africa looks more wealthy than other African country’s it’s because it chose to suck the whiteman’s ass on account of all black people.
Well the truth of the matter is if you dont chose to suck a whitemena’s ass (as my hero Mugabe does) your country will be subjected to heavier economic santions as they doing with Zimbabwe.
No that Mugabe or Zimbabwe is the failing counrty whites all over the world have key interest to evade Zimbabwe and disguise this with democratic system.
I believe no blackman will dissent with my position.
“I believe no blackman will dissent with my position.”
Thousands of black men went against your position when the MDC won the majority of parliamentary seats in Zim.
Your hero Mugabe, has murdered thousands of black men, women and children.
Read here from a witness and weep for those who died so that his wife can spend millions on shopping:
www DOT thoughtleader DOT co DOT za/bhekinkosimoyo/2008/06/16/zimbabwe-violence-reminiscent-of-gukurahundi-massacres-believe-me-you-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-go-there%e2%80%a6/
LONG LIVE PRESIDENT MUGABE LONG LIVE!
People forget that God does not kill Good people.
Who are you to call for termination on someone’s life? Surely you must be a brain washed person driven by capitalism evil perpetrated by the West.
To answer you Z.
How many people died (and millions are still suferruing today, thanks all tribute to White people) in S.A due to apartheid system?
It turns to be a joke to hear white people complaining about level of crime in this country. All I can say is they eating fruits of their past doing, I don’t know they would stop eating them.
You saying people of Zimabwe have voted Mugabe out? what proof to you have to substantiate your point, unless you work for ZEC.
As far as the position in Zimbabwe is concerned people in there have been given only two choices by the British and its Allies. Choices are: Zimbambean people are forced to suck from whites or dye of hunger if they dont want to suck from them. This is the position as far as the issue of Zimbabwe is concerned.
Dont worry about South Africa, we have chosen to suck from whites that is why everything is like this in this country.
Now th big question to all black people is UNTIL WHEN WOULD YOU SUCK FROM WHITES?
lindelani maseko
Thanks for coming on board, I now seem like a moderate.
Khosi
I think you’re looking like you’re tilting to right wing if jester the above serves as any reference point.
lindelani
I truly hope my friends are right, that you are just a stirrer. But to answer you:
“You saying people of Zimabwe have voted Mugabe out? what proof to you have to substantiate your point, unless you work for ZEC.”
I didn’t say Mugabe was voted out. But I would suggest that you educate yourself regarding the Zim electoral process.
I said: “the MDC won the majority of parliamentary seats in Zim.”
They won the parliamentary vote outright. And the presidential vote was inconclusive because they didn’t get more than 50%, but they did get more votes than Zanu PF.
Just phone up the ZEC. It’s not a conspiracy, they said so.
Z, I agree, compared to lindelani, Khosi would appear like Hellen Zille or even Eugene Terreblanche, with lindelani appearing like Julius Malema. Frankly, I don’t think that lindelani is just a stirrer, but a blatant racist..
Mouse
Did you see my explanation for the misunderstanding with you above?
Z, yes thanks. I just haven’t come around to everything before this afternoon. Having quite a ‘jol’ on the other blogs above.
To answer you Anonymous.
I am not RASIST.
I learnt from the best, i.e we learnt from whites.
Ok, so whites and you are racist, no? They are just slightly better ones than you.
Khosi
are you with me?
please advise.
I am really honest on this, white people should REALLY train their children for REVERSED APARTHEID which will be in full force after next coming 10 years from now here in S.A.
Unfortunately, they seem to be forgetten about what they did to us they seem to sleeping.
I’m black.
“I believe no blackman will dissent with my position.”
I know several black Zim men who would gladly take your obnoxious black head off they so dissent with your opinion.
I think you are the ugliest sort of racist. Apartheid racists could cocoon themselves into the belief that they were right because they were being shut off from the outside world.
You? You are just unjustifiably dreadful.
lindelani maseko
You see white people have not forgotten apartheid and colonialism, on the contrary many want it back.
I am still trying to size you up so I know how to engage with you. For me, I take this Africanism theory quite seriously so I cannot endorse anyone who thinks the likes of Rat, Wessel etc are just here for kicks. These people are serious. David Bullard set it out, quite clearly.
Khosi, go see what he wrote about Mbeki on the Zuma lawyers going for broke DB
Yeah, ask lindelani what a ‘toaser’ is.
Khosi, actually it is on the site suggesting thye Zuma case should continue that you should go look see what lindelani thinks about TM
Mpho,
I did see that. That is why I am not sure if he will still be hear next week. He is too inconsistent to pin down.
Rat,
Read as I said to Mpho
Mouse I think we are dreadful shit stirrers!
Mpho – I agree, but isn’t it necessary some times?