<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: High Court judges, equality law and the Constitutional Court</title>
	<atom:link href="http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:34:16 +0200</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: AliBama</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-9034</link>
		<dc:creator>AliBama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-9034</guid>
		<description>Re. http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPHC/2008/377.htm
Good show for, AFAIK Anonymouse, posting this link.
Do the pulic know about this ?
Perhaps they should NOT, lest society implode, for lack of
  the illusion of law &amp; order ?
-------
With the skills shortage such Court abuses are inevitable.
The Judicial officers must have massive pressure to get output ?
Do Courts acknowledge that eg. summons delivery, which was
designed for the 1st world minority, cannot physically meet the
rules, and accordingly relax their application of the rules ? 
Flouting the rules is also unacceptable.
OTOH it&#039;s un-PeeCee to admit that SA can&#039;t comply with 
  1st world rules.
Perhaps it&#039;s done but not admitted in writing ?
------
Mpho wrote:
&gt; It turned out that the principal witness (a police officer)
&gt; was the wife of the Magistrate and the main complaint was that
&gt; the woman had sworn at the police officer.
Was your knowledge easily available to others ?
---
&gt; I always wondered what happened to that Magistrate.
Are we supposed to know ?
Is it dangerous, if Courts &#039;lose respect&#039;, or is transparency
   more important ?
With the internet, the reality has now changed forever.
IMO the net exposed prez-TM, and brought down Mugabe.
-----
This is my first post to blogs. I see it removes the blank lines.
Pity that dumb-blogging replaced NewsGroups.
Now the &#039;whole book&#039; is telecommunicated back &amp; forth, instead
of just the last message; which is part of the US &#039;infinite
frontier wastefull approach&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. <a href="http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPHC/2008/377.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPHC/2008/377.htm</a><br />
Good show for, AFAIK Anonymouse, posting this link.<br />
Do the pulic know about this ?<br />
Perhaps they should NOT, lest society implode, for lack of<br />
  the illusion of law &amp; order ?<br />
&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
With the skills shortage such Court abuses are inevitable.<br />
The Judicial officers must have massive pressure to get output ?<br />
Do Courts acknowledge that eg. summons delivery, which was<br />
designed for the 1st world minority, cannot physically meet the<br />
rules, and accordingly relax their application of the rules ?<br />
Flouting the rules is also unacceptable.<br />
OTOH it&#8217;s un-PeeCee to admit that SA can&#8217;t comply with<br />
  1st world rules.<br />
Perhaps it&#8217;s done but not admitted in writing ?<br />
&#8212;&#8212;<br />
Mpho wrote:<br />
&gt; It turned out that the principal witness (a police officer)<br />
&gt; was the wife of the Magistrate and the main complaint was that<br />
&gt; the woman had sworn at the police officer.<br />
Was your knowledge easily available to others ?<br />
&#8212;<br />
&gt; I always wondered what happened to that Magistrate.<br />
Are we supposed to know ?<br />
Is it dangerous, if Courts &#8216;lose respect&#8217;, or is transparency<br />
   more important ?<br />
With the internet, the reality has now changed forever.<br />
IMO the net exposed prez-TM, and brought down Mugabe.<br />
&#8212;&#8211;<br />
This is my first post to blogs. I see it removes the blank lines.<br />
Pity that dumb-blogging replaced NewsGroups.<br />
Now the &#8216;whole book&#8217; is telecommunicated back &amp; forth, instead<br />
of just the last message; which is part of the US &#8216;infinite<br />
frontier wastefull approach&#8217;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-9017</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 12:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-9017</guid>
		<description>Mpho et Z - Yes I do remember such a thing, in the Eastern Cape somewhere, I think Pickering was the Judge - and the matter was in the end reported as well? I am however not sure what happened to the magistrate during the disciplinary hearing, but the way such things are currently being handled by the Magistrates Commission makes one wonder whether the magistrate got off with anything worse than a rebuke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mpho et Z &#8211; Yes I do remember such a thing, in the Eastern Cape somewhere, I think Pickering was the Judge &#8211; and the matter was in the end reported as well? I am however not sure what happened to the magistrate during the disciplinary hearing, but the way such things are currently being handled by the Magistrates Commission makes one wonder whether the magistrate got off with anything worse than a rebuke.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: z</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-9014</link>
		<dc:creator>z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-9014</guid>
		<description>Mpho

That is just beyond imagination. And it is the poor who probably suffer the most, in such cases... Actually it&#039;s sickening.

I am not sure if I want to know what happened to the magistrate...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mpho</p>
<p>That is just beyond imagination. And it is the poor who probably suffer the most, in such cases&#8230; Actually it&#8217;s sickening.</p>
<p>I am not sure if I want to know what happened to the magistrate&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mpho</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-9011</link>
		<dc:creator>Mpho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-9011</guid>
		<description>Mouse, that case reminds me of the one where a woman was sentenced to 5 or 6 months imprisonment for being drunk and disorderly.  It was her first offence.  During another routine check the Dep of Justice official came across the docket.  It turned out that the principal witness (a police officer) was the wife of the Magistrate and the main complaint was that the woman had sworn at the police officer.  I always wondered what happened to that Magistrate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mouse, that case reminds me of the one where a woman was sentenced to 5 or 6 months imprisonment for being drunk and disorderly.  It was her first offence.  During another routine check the Dep of Justice official came across the docket.  It turned out that the principal witness (a police officer) was the wife of the Magistrate and the main complaint was that the woman had sworn at the police officer.  I always wondered what happened to that Magistrate.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: AliBama</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-9010</link>
		<dc:creator>AliBama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-9010</guid>
		<description>The prof&#039;s observations resonate strongly with what I asked 
several attorneys, and got a vague denial of -- except the 
one who pointed out that &quot;law is inherantly conservative&quot;.

NB. I asked: &quot;isn&#039;t it true that most judicial officers have
not yet tuned-into the more EQUITY based view of post &#039;94&quot; ?
But all your disagreements with the prof. mention EQUALITY.

Which leads to the punch-line, which they considered too
improper to answer: &quot;what mechanism to use to safely tell 
the judicial officer, &#039;look boy, if you are so lazy as to 
just take the old-60&#039;s precedents, I&#039;m going to take this 
matter higher, where they DO understand considerations
of equity, and not just the 60&#039;s &#039;kak en betaal&#039; simplistic,
literal interpretations.&#039;...?&quot;

Related [IMO]:
Does the concept of force majeur, [I think it&#039;s called - act
of God, &amp; beyond our reasonable control] apply, so that,
without being formally recorded, because of the general 
incapacity in the nation, and therefore also the Court
systems&#039; incapacity the statutory time-limits are relaxed ?
Re. equity it&#039;s not &#039;fair&#039; that a party is able to prevail 
with unjust actions by manipulating procedural stuff 
like time-limits.

It&#039;s well known that Indian cases can go on for 
generations, but I doubt that they don&#039;t have statutory 
time-limits ?

Re. equity, I observe that the SA &#039;natives&#039; have a
&#039;better&#039; sense of natural justice, but they accept 
the reality that money trumps justice - in SA.
---------
Re equity:
SA follows UK company law, with a big time-lag.
So a company&#039;s internal bussiness is controled by
majority-rule.  So, if you, I &amp; my wife save the life
of the wealthy old American, and he, as a reward
gives us [one third each] his Pty before he retires 
to US, then your share is worth zero, by the strictly
technical [non equity] old-SA paradigm.
This because my wife &amp; I will will vote ourselves as
directors and extract all profit as directors&#039; fees. 
By contrast, UK had a number of equity-based jugments,
over-ruling [making exceptions to] the Foss v Harbottle
rule, which is the kind of technical [rather than equity]
concept that the 60&#039;s-paradigm-SA-law-people love.

AFAIK, only the 1992 SCA Hullett case finally used the
UK equity precedents.  And later cases still unjustly 
screwed the minority, because the Judges are looking
for a simple/safe mechanistic paradigm, where they 
don&#039;t have to THINK/JUDGE what is fair &amp; equitible,
even when statute allows them to use discretion.
Perhaps it&#039;s part of the view: &#039;die wet&#039; is handed 
down from a higher, not to be understood power.
And the &quot;that&#039;s how we do it - understanding why, is 
not for me&quot; attitude. 
--------------
Related [IMO]:
I attended [the only of my life] fixed property execution
sale/auction.  After the price was bid up to 3 times 
market, and the genuine buyers had left, the sheriff
casually anounced that &quot;there was a mistake and the
sale would be rectified&quot;.  So after the other stuff was
sold and most bidders had left. The scammed [IMO]
re-auction took place.  I bid up to market.  And when
I had a look at the applicable HC rules I couldn&#039;t
see anything &#039;illegal&#039;.  That the equity consideration
of a genuine free-market auction was to exist, was
[IMO] replaced by the 60&#039;s-SA &#039;dit is die wet&#039; view.

Am I right that the CC hopes that these little unjust
quirks of SA law will be &#039;brought in&#039; for scrutiny and 
fixing, hence increasingly cleansing the statute-set ?
An example being the CC:&#039;Prince Albert execution of
RDP houses for near zero prices&#039;, after the &#039;sommer 
maklik&#039; procedure of moving it along without even the 
oversight of a magistrate.  CC tightened up the rules.

BTW, this is all irrelevant/academic, since SA too is
transforming: ZA -&gt; Zimbabwe -&gt; Zambia -&gt; Zaire: home!

PS. I seek JHB attorney/counsel who&#039;s familiar with the
principle: &quot;a Pty. [especially small &amp; family held] is
a quasi partnership, and hence fiduciary duty applies
inter se&quot;.  SALR of 1992 SCA Hullett...  cited 
P. Rabinowitz, who I can&#039;t locate. 
Perhaps he packed for Perth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The prof&#8217;s observations resonate strongly with what I asked<br />
several attorneys, and got a vague denial of &#8212; except the<br />
one who pointed out that &#8220;law is inherantly conservative&#8221;.</p>
<p>NB. I asked: &#8220;isn&#8217;t it true that most judicial officers have<br />
not yet tuned-into the more EQUITY based view of post &#8216;94&#8243; ?<br />
But all your disagreements with the prof. mention EQUALITY.</p>
<p>Which leads to the punch-line, which they considered too<br />
improper to answer: &#8220;what mechanism to use to safely tell<br />
the judicial officer, &#8216;look boy, if you are so lazy as to<br />
just take the old-60&#8217;s precedents, I&#8217;m going to take this<br />
matter higher, where they DO understand considerations<br />
of equity, and not just the 60&#8217;s &#8216;kak en betaal&#8217; simplistic,<br />
literal interpretations.&#8217;&#8230;?&#8221;</p>
<p>Related [IMO]:<br />
Does the concept of force majeur, [I think it's called - act<br />
of God, &amp; beyond our reasonable control] apply, so that,<br />
without being formally recorded, because of the general<br />
incapacity in the nation, and therefore also the Court<br />
systems&#8217; incapacity the statutory time-limits are relaxed ?<br />
Re. equity it&#8217;s not &#8216;fair&#8217; that a party is able to prevail<br />
with unjust actions by manipulating procedural stuff<br />
like time-limits.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s well known that Indian cases can go on for<br />
generations, but I doubt that they don&#8217;t have statutory<br />
time-limits ?</p>
<p>Re. equity, I observe that the SA &#8216;natives&#8217; have a<br />
&#8216;better&#8217; sense of natural justice, but they accept<br />
the reality that money trumps justice &#8211; in SA.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
Re equity:<br />
SA follows UK company law, with a big time-lag.<br />
So a company&#8217;s internal bussiness is controled by<br />
majority-rule.  So, if you, I &amp; my wife save the life<br />
of the wealthy old American, and he, as a reward<br />
gives us [one third each] his Pty before he retires<br />
to US, then your share is worth zero, by the strictly<br />
technical [non equity] old-SA paradigm.<br />
This because my wife &amp; I will will vote ourselves as<br />
directors and extract all profit as directors&#8217; fees.<br />
By contrast, UK had a number of equity-based jugments,<br />
over-ruling [making exceptions to] the Foss v Harbottle<br />
rule, which is the kind of technical [rather than equity]<br />
concept that the 60&#8217;s-paradigm-SA-law-people love.</p>
<p>AFAIK, only the 1992 SCA Hullett case finally used the<br />
UK equity precedents.  And later cases still unjustly<br />
screwed the minority, because the Judges are looking<br />
for a simple/safe mechanistic paradigm, where they<br />
don&#8217;t have to THINK/JUDGE what is fair &amp; equitible,<br />
even when statute allows them to use discretion.<br />
Perhaps it&#8217;s part of the view: &#8216;die wet&#8217; is handed<br />
down from a higher, not to be understood power.<br />
And the &#8220;that&#8217;s how we do it &#8211; understanding why, is<br />
not for me&#8221; attitude.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
Related [IMO]:<br />
I attended [the only of my life] fixed property execution<br />
sale/auction.  After the price was bid up to 3 times<br />
market, and the genuine buyers had left, the sheriff<br />
casually anounced that &#8220;there was a mistake and the<br />
sale would be rectified&#8221;.  So after the other stuff was<br />
sold and most bidders had left. The scammed [IMO]<br />
re-auction took place.  I bid up to market.  And when<br />
I had a look at the applicable HC rules I couldn&#8217;t<br />
see anything &#8216;illegal&#8217;.  That the equity consideration<br />
of a genuine free-market auction was to exist, was<br />
[IMO] replaced by the 60&#8217;s-SA &#8216;dit is die wet&#8217; view.</p>
<p>Am I right that the CC hopes that these little unjust<br />
quirks of SA law will be &#8216;brought in&#8217; for scrutiny and<br />
fixing, hence increasingly cleansing the statute-set ?<br />
An example being the CC:&#8217;Prince Albert execution of<br />
RDP houses for near zero prices&#8217;, after the &#8217;sommer<br />
maklik&#8217; procedure of moving it along without even the<br />
oversight of a magistrate.  CC tightened up the rules.</p>
<p>BTW, this is all irrelevant/academic, since SA too is<br />
transforming: ZA -&gt; Zimbabwe -&gt; Zambia -&gt; Zaire: home!</p>
<p>PS. I seek JHB attorney/counsel who&#8217;s familiar with the<br />
principle: &#8220;a Pty. [especially small &amp; family held] is<br />
a quasi partnership, and hence fiduciary duty applies<br />
inter se&#8221;.  SALR of 1992 SCA Hullett&#8230;  cited<br />
P. Rabinowitz, who I can&#8217;t locate.<br />
Perhaps he packed for Perth.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: z</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-8747</link>
		<dc:creator>z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-8747</guid>
		<description>Mouse

Shocking and scary. (And I don&#039;t know the half of it!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mouse</p>
<p>Shocking and scary. (And I don&#8217;t know the half of it!)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-8745</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-8745</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t really know where to fit this in - I know we have debated the competence of judges (and magistrates) and the lack of proper sifting, appointment and training procedures by the Judicial Service Commission and the Magistrates Commission elsewhere - but this is truly ridiculous. http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPHC/2008/377.html

Things like this make me sick to my stomach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t really know where to fit this in &#8211; I know we have debated the competence of judges (and magistrates) and the lack of proper sifting, appointment and training procedures by the Judicial Service Commission and the Magistrates Commission elsewhere &#8211; but this is truly ridiculous. <a href="http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPHC/2008/377.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPHC/2008/377.html</a></p>
<p>Things like this make me sick to my stomach.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tatera</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-8483</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-8483</guid>
		<description>mel // Nov 20, 2008 at 4:56 pm 
Malale!
It would be prudent for you to employ a simple language when conveying your comments. What is the purpose of you confusing the poor professer and Mdu to an extend that they are unable to respond to your reflections

Somewhat presumptuous I would say!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mel // Nov 20, 2008 at 4:56 pm<br />
Malale!<br />
It would be prudent for you to employ a simple language when conveying your comments. What is the purpose of you confusing the poor professer and Mdu to an extend that they are unable to respond to your reflections</p>
<p>Somewhat presumptuous I would say!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mel</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-8475</link>
		<dc:creator>mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-8475</guid>
		<description>Malale!

It would be prudent for you to employ a simple language when conveying your comments. What is the purpose of you confusing the poor professer and Mdu to an extend that they are unable to respond to your reflections</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Malale!</p>
<p>It would be prudent for you to employ a simple language when conveying your comments. What is the purpose of you confusing the poor professer and Mdu to an extend that they are unable to respond to your reflections</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sandra</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/high-court-judges-equality-law-and-the-constitutional-court/#comment-8474</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=731#comment-8474</guid>
		<description>Samaita, and the rest - I am  not entirely convinced that the courts are the correct place to lobby for legislation which needs changing!  Especially legislation which adversely affects business rather than the individual and on constitutional basis such as equality?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Samaita, and the rest &#8211; I am  not entirely convinced that the courts are the correct place to lobby for legislation which needs changing!  Especially legislation which adversely affects business rather than the individual and on constitutional basis such as equality?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
