Time will say nothing but I told you so,
Time only knows the price we have to pay;
If I could tell you I would let you know.If we should weep when clowns put on their show,
If we should stumble when musicians play,
Time will say nothing but I told you so.
I don’t often say I told you so, although I would lie if I denied that I am often tempted to do so. But in the wake of reports that the ANC National Working Committee (NWC) on Monday discussed the possibility of charging Cosatu leader, Zwelenzima Vavi, (or may have already decided to charge him), for insulting ANC leaders in public, I have to say: “Well I told you so”.
The Times reports that the ANC wants to charge Vavi as he is a card carrying member of the ANC. They argue that ANC Youth League president Julius Malema was also charged as an ANC member. They are very, very, cross with Vavi because last Thursday, he accused President Jacob Zuma of not taking action against corrupt ministers, specifically mentioning Minister of Cooperative Governance Sicelo Shiceka and Communications Minister Siphiwe Nyanda. Vavi said reports that Shiceka had lied in his CV and the conduct of Nyanda, who spent R500 000 on hotels in Cape Town, should be probed.
The tenderpreneurs in the ANC obviously did not like this talk of probing Ministers for corruption. What will be next? Charging President Zuma for taking money(“taking a bribe”, our courts called it) from a crook and then doing favours for that crook? Exposing the various business dealings of ANC leaders making a fast buck while service delivery flounders? I mean really, who does Vavi think he is? How can one effectively loot rule a country when one’s allies want to have corruption probed and exposed? Have you ever heard of such an absurd idea?
There are no fortunes to be told, although,
Because I love you more than I can say,
If I could tell you I would let you know.The winds must come from somewhere when they blow,
There must be reasons why the leaves decay;
Time will say nothing but I told you so.
Vavi is, of course, an ANC member and according to the ANC Constitution he is subject to the discipline of the ANC like any other member. It would therefore be perfectly legal to charge Vavi. I am sure if the right disciplinary committee is selected Vavi could also be found guilty of contravening section 25.5 of the ANC Constitution which prohibits any member from, inter alia:
Behaviour which brings the organisation into disrepute or which manifests a flagrant violation of the moral integrity expected of members and public representatives or conduct unbecoming that of a member or public representative; Behaving in such a way as to provoke serious divisions or a break-down of unity in the organisation; Undermining the respect for or impeding the functioning of the structures of the organisation; Prejudicing the integrity or repute of the organisation, its personnel or its operational capacity by: Impeding the activities of the organisation; Creating division within its ranks or membership; Doing any other act, which undermines its effectiveness as an organisation; or Acting on behalf of or in collaboration with: Counter-revolutionary forces.
That is exactly why I warned after the conviction of Julius Malema that it was a bad idea to find him guilty of criticising the President of the ANC. At the time I wrote:
Surely, if this approach were to be strictly applied, it would stifle democratic debate within the ANC and would severely limit the freedom of expression enjoyed by ANC members. If an ANC member criticized one of his comrades because that comrade had been found guilty of corruption, say, disciplinary charges could be instituted against him or her for sowing division within the ANC. This would leave good members in the ANC who spoke out against the wrongdoing of comrades vulnerable and would make it rather difficult to raise questions about the conduct of fellow ANC members – even if this criticism is based on proven facts.
And that is exactly what Vavi is now facing. Those who want to stop Vavi from speaking out about corruption in the ANC (so much the better to loot govern the country) are even using the Malema saga as an excuse to do so. This is the problem with curtailing freedom of expression and endorsing censorship: today it is being used against your enemies, but tomorrow it is being used against yourself – even when you speak the truth and are one of the good guys.
The fact that the NWC even discussed the possibility of charging Vavi clearly means that the tenderpreneurs in the ANC are more stupid and vengeful than they are greedy (and that takes some doing). Charging Vavi would be a calamity for President Zuma and the ANC. Unlike Malema, who has no real power base, is being manipulated by a few rich benefactors to do their bidding, and could easily be dropped when he passes his sell-by date, Vavi is the leader of Cosatu. Without the organisational skills of Cosatu and the active support of its members, the ANC will find it difficult to get more than 50% of the vote at the next election.
One assumes President Zuma and Mr Gwede Mantashe will outflank the tenderpreneurs on the NWC and will make sure that charges against Vavi never see the light of day. If they do not, the ANC would probably be done for as the governing party. But what President Zuma will not do is to order an investigation into the credible allegations of corruption against Siphiwe Nyanda. If one lives in a glass house one is surely not going to throw the first stone.
Meanwhile, all I can say to Zwelenzima Vavi is: “I told you so”. When Vavi supported President Zuma as the alternative to Thabo Mbeki and said Zuma was an unstoppable tsunami I warned that President Zuma was an African traditionalist and deeply conservative man who did not share the values held so dearly by Cosatu. Now Vavi is realising that this is indeed the case and that he had helped to elect a man that is ethically weak and holds reactionary views.
Perhaps the roses really want to grow,
The vision seriously intends to stay;
If I could tell you I would let you know.Suppose all the lions get up and go,
And all the brooks and soldiers run away;
Will Time say nothing but I told you so?
If I could tell you I would let you know. – - WH Auden “If I could Tell you”
These poor think skinned corrupt people who run our country. Don’t you get arrested in Zimbabwe for daring to insult their great leader?
“The fact that the NWC even discussed the possibility of charging Vavi clearly means that the tenderpreneurs in the ANC are more stupid and vengeful than they are greedy”
Not necessarily.
It may have been an attempt for investigations called by Cosatu via Vavi to be dropped.
On the other hand it may just strengthen the resolve of Cosatu and other right minded ANC members to open this up further.
Interesting times ahead!
It is so sad that Cmd Vavi has himself been corrupted by the “white tendency” which, as Cmd Mbeki always pointed out, attempts (for reasons for RACISM), to tarnish our leaders with charges of corruption!
This is just propaganda. Nothing will come of this, the same as or JM. If one is corrupt enough to be in power, than surely this will go away. They are grandstanding to show that we live in a “democracy”. They are not fooling me. Vavi still drives a fancy car, even though ALL the poor people he stands for dont have “pot to piss” in. Literally … and those people then fight against the DA. Because the DA wasn’t quick enough in 2 years to fix something the ANC hasn’t done in 15??? the people who voted are not 15?????
This will never end. If history has taught us anything, and is the proper “i told you so”, metaphor, then this country will go through a civil at some point in the near future. It is unavoidable. America, Europe, ALL develop countries had internal conflict. Africa is behind the rest, and to think that africa is any different is stupid, to say the least. Most of africa is still in a battle. They wont learn, unless they realize they must stop pretending and start looking at the problems and solve it. A BMW will not put food on the poor peoples table.
The ANC/Cosatu/SACP/DA ALL are doing exactly the same as the Apartheid government.
Tell me it aint so……
Sorry Prof bit or ranting
Bit everyday one reads and sees SUCH bad things. Last night on special assignment , we saw girls 15 younger and older, being raped by five or more men.
The fence is 20 years old. The power has been turned off. How is this right? What are these bloody people doing with our/ MY TAX MONEY?
It makes one ANGRY. really! at least go fix the fence and put some guards there.
But there is R500 000 RAND for some stupid/idiot/no degree/ no brain minister to go live in a cape town hotel, even though he’s not even from here!!!!! WTF!!!!
This is not right!
I would love to believe that something constructive might come out of this, but alas, I know it won’t.
We are too far down the scale of corruption and there is no turning back. Nothing will happen, nothing, just as with Malema.
One should follow this story with an eye on Moeletsi Mbeki’s book “Architects of poverty”[2009] , to better understand what is actually playing out within the ANC. It’s the typical African revolutionary movement in power/the looters of the country’s riches versus the bourgeois.
As Mbeki pointed out, these African leaders [like the ANC/looters] just cannot fathom and accept that there are other representatives of voters [ like trade unions, eg the MDC in Zima] that can think for themselves – and also represent Black voters – and MAY/CAN criticize the revolutionary movement.
It’s now the time for civil society to support Vavi.
Ahh, aren’t you all a bunch of sun rays today?
Here I was, thinking, what a cool way to start this week. Long may they fight and disagree. Who’s that coming down the street – would that be Jesus? What a pleasure. Whether this issue makes it to the end or not is less relevant. Battle lines are drawn, and this can only end one way. Which would be marked as the proper beginning of a democracy in South Africa.
Why so depressed? It’s wonderful how Vavi has turned into the saviour….
Heish Pierre! You are quite right of course but I for one am never going to accuse you of modesty!
@Fass / Dworky
You could well be right, mate.
Perhaps Cde Vavi was corrupted by the “white tendency” when his wife (possibly unethically?) got the commission from selling alll those insurance policies to COSATU members?
I for one do hope that the ANC, which we all know has a consistent history in recent years, of making self destructive decisions, that they do charge Vavi. Its time for a labour party in this country, and obviously COSATU is meant to be it.
COSATU has believed for so long that their only avenue to power is through the ANC. A little bit, or perhaps a great bit of inferiority complex at play here.
I also believe that the DA is more interested in opportunity for labour, their rights and a decent living, than the ANC is. With COPE in disarray, there is no better time for COSATU to act. And then they must start talking with the DA regarding coalition possibilities. Wishful thinking I know, but I still expect a miracle to happen. SA is so good with those.
In 1995 a friend of mine said that Cosatu will form their own party in 2011.
Is 2010 too soon?
Vavi spoke on behalf of the CEC of Cosatu. I agree that having charged Julius individually – whilst speaking for the ANCYL (wrongly or correctly) – was a wrong move and had set a bad precedent. Cyril Ramaphosa chairs the National Appeas Committee of the ANC, and one hopes that he will overturn and the Malema verdict upon review, that is if the ANCYL appealed. Though one is not sure as to how independent is the ANCYL from the ANC, but one is definately sure that COSATU is organisationally, structurally, financially and constitutionally completely independent from the ANC. For me this is the ONLY credible argument why it would be wrong to charge Vavi – not what Professor de Vos is advancing. I mean, it would be chaotic if any member of the ANC was allowed to critisise the leadership of the ANC in PUBLIC while structures and grievance procedures are provided for in the ANC constitution. Unless such a member, acts using a different cap. Vavi is popularly known as a COSATU leader as opposed to being an ordinary ANC member – even my 4year old daughter knows this fact.
Spuy: do you really take yourself seriously? Your comment is demeaning to both yourself and what the ANC originally stood for. Malema, idiot personified, being charged and convicted with a most suitable and surprising and resultant restriction, who would have guessed, possibly the best ANC action to date these past years. Perhaps for a moment, you could set yourself apart from the spin of the ANC, the drama and emotion.
The selfish bas tard F**k ed up badly, and malema has deserved the consequences totally. There are many I assure you who hope the ANC does charge Vavi, and that Vavi and COSATU have the wherewithall to establish their own labour party to challenge the ANC. We ache for it, a labour party of worth and a split in the ANC.
Your days are numbered and Jesus has nothing to do with it.
The times they are a changing, and listen up if you are willing my bro; there are so many who want these times to change. We are so fed up with your corruption and spin, your ig-nor-ance with respect to the poor. And we will hold you accountable, daq vir daq, count on it.
@ Spuy
You write that “it would be chaotic if any member of the ANC was allowed to criticise the leadership of the ANC in PUBLIC”. I assume you mean by that each an every ACN member are prohibited from criticising the ANC leadership in public.
That is, in my view, an absurd and undemocratic position. Look around the world: In all democratic countries you will see members of a party publicly criticising the leaders. This is part of democracy, the freedom of expression etc. The only places where a party member is prohibited from criticising the party and its leaders are countries like Venezuela, China, Iran etc., hardly models for ANC (one would hope).
Your point of view would also prohibit debate about who should be the leadership as it would mean that you could never criticise the incumbent – unless you would introduce certain “windows” up to electoral congresses and the likes.
Of course, a party could have some rules about decorum, that if you criticise the party and its leaders, you should not be insulting etc. But that is not the same as saying that all criticism must go through the internal procedures.
With respect to the Malema case, I think that it was correct of ANC to discipline Malema. But not for what he said about Zuma – I mean he just compared him (negatively) to the former chairperson and for almost two terms SA president. In my view, he should have been disciplined for how he acted in Zimbabwe (which I found by far his worst transgression) and maybe also for how he acted with the journalist (or not). I forgot the last incident.
Concerning the appeal, I understood that Malema made some kind of plea bargain? Surely, if you do that, you cannot appeal?
Ricky says:
June 2, 2010 at 21:53 pm
“I assume you mean by that each an every ACN member are prohibited from criticising the ANC leadership in public.”
That cannot be correct – ANC members are regularly criticised in public.
The president and SG for example criticised Malema for his ridiculous utterances in public.
ANC mayors and councilors have been criticised in public.
The ANCYL members who trashed the toilets in Cape Town have been criticised in public.
There is a context in which criticism is frowned upon which as Pierre wrote above is contravening section 25.5 of the ANC Constitution.
@ Maggs
“The ANCYL members who trashed the toilets in Cape Town have been criticised in public.”
Yes, but this is nothing the celebrate, Maggs!
Why should the masses be required to SQUAT in publicly indignity, while “Madame” Zille lives in luxury, uses spare cash to finance hourly BOTOX shots, keep an all-male “Cabinet” HAREM, and to pay for redundant suburban street sweeps?
Hey?
Thanks for sharing the poem – love it.
@Maggs
I was unprecise, by “I assume you mean by that each an every ACN member are prohibited from criticising the ANC leadership in public” I was referring to Spuy’s statement “it would be chaotic if any member of the ANC was allowed to criticise the leadership of the ANC in PUBLIC”. – And I should have written that “I assume you mean by that that each an every ACN member SHOULD BE prohibited from criticising the ANC leadership in public.”
Maybe instead of disciplining Mr Vavi, the simplest way to “shut him up” would be for Mr Zuma to actually take some steps about the ministers specifically mentioned by Mr Vavi (and push for the finalisation of the review of the somewhat offensive car policy while he is at it). Does anyone know is the status on this later matter, I remember that such a review was promised sometime last year – and as it is not exactly rocket science, what is the excuse for the delay?
Ricky says:
June 3, 2010 at 7:09 am
You were clear enough.
It was Spuy’s comment and the interpretation that seemed wrong.
It cannot be correct that ANC members are expected to shut up while wrong is happening and raise that through “organisational structures”.
A distinction has to be made between robust public debate and undermining leaders and the ANC.
In the case of Malema for example, when asked to tone down the rhetoric by President Zuma, he went ahead and undermined the president – that in my view is ill discipline (which he acceded to and accepted the disciplinary sanction).
Vavi on the other hand has raised a matter of public concern – the wanton wastage of public funds, deceptive CVs and Government Ministers doing business with government.
He cited specific examples.
People cannot hide behind organisation discipline on this one – it’s not going to go away.
The Zuma administration were voted in by a massive majority to clean up the kak, not add to it – it’s time President Zuma showed some leadership and statesmanship.
Allowing the ANC to be used to fight the battles for some of the most corrupt in South Africa (and some international crooks too) is hardly Project Zuma.
Next to the President and his inner circle Vavi looks positively presidential.
There is a time-honoured tradition amongst the ANusClowns of getting rid of the opposition or challengers. This has included shootings, stabbings, fisticuffs, chairs, gerrymandering, rigging the vote, and more, right down to the mundane like character assassination in civics, in compiling candidate lists as councillors, in elections for ANCYL executives, wherever the ANC is involved.
The energy in heaping shame and embarrassment on ones’ country is seemingly limitless. That ANC T-shirt has magical powers. (Conscience is affected adversely.)
Need anyone say more than: “Minorities resorted to the protection of the Courts twice in one week to stop Juju’s hate-speech and the ANC, applying its mind (lol) found him guilty of breaches of party discipline for maligning the President!”
Godless, shameless ANC!
Response to “Vavi the bonfire to Malema’s vanity?” Thought Leader – Michael Trapido
“This led to the bitterness over the ANC’s refusal to implement economic policies that the left-wing members of the alliance were expecting post-elections. ”
——— ——–
“We would like to take advantage of this occasion to make the point that the assumption that some among you make, together with other forces within the broad democratic movement, that the ANC is incapable of representing the most fundamental interests of the toiling masses of our country is wrong.
None of us should go around carrying the notion in our heads that we have a special responsibility to be a revolutionary watchdog over the ANC.
We must understand that none among the left forces of our country is challenged to capture the soul of the ANC, to avoid it being stolen by forces of the right.
This supposed left victory would mean that we, who are members and cadres of the ANC, will sit in helpless surrender as whatever force takes away our soul, leaving us as nothing but pliable instruments in the hands of whoever controls us.” (Part of the former)Statement of the President of the African National Congress, Thabo Mbeki, at the 10th Congress of the SACP: 2 July 1998
http://www.sacp.org.za/main.php?include=10thcongress/thabospeech.html
(Report abuse)
Siphiwo Siphiwo on June 2nd, 2010 at 4:07 pm
LOL! Zwelinazima not only does not blink, he goes nose-to-nose with the ANC…
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=110740
Today I thought you would comment on the minister of communications threat to Mr. Vavi.
Communications Minister Siphiwe Nyanda has threatened to sue Congress of South African Trade Unions boss Zwelinzima Vavi for insinuating that he was corrupt.
Thomas says:
June 4, 2010 at 10:26 am
“Communications Minister Siphiwe Nyanda has threatened to sue Congress of South African Trade Unions boss Zwelinzima Vavi for insinuating that he was corrupt.”
LOL!
And you think that will really happen????
Maggs: There is even an ultimatum for any apology.
In his letter, Nyanda’s lawyer, Siyabonga Mahlangu, said he received instructions to pursue legal action against Vavi in his “personal and official capacity” should he not apologise by next Thursday.
“The publication of your statements . constitutes a gross violation of our client’s right to his good name and reputation and is per se defamatory,” Mahlangu wrote.
“We have been instructed to demand… that you publish. an unqualified retraction of any reference or insinuation that our client is a corrupt individual or corrupt minister, accompanied by an unqualified apology to our client.
“We demand that you do so in the same medium and manner in which you published the defamatory remarks and advise you that you have done so before close of business on 10 June 2010, failing which we hold instructions to commence legal action against you.”
It is a stupid move by Nyanda that is bound to backfire badly. Their noses are so deep in the trough that their minds don’t seem to function properly.
In case they are not aware, Vavi is closer to the struggling masses than any of the ANC fat cats – including Nyanda.
Thomas says:
June 4, 2010 at 11:05 am
Hey Thomas,
I saw the threat of “legal action” – but it’s not going to happen.
There’s zero likelihood of any dirty washing being hung out in public.
This is why I religiously read your blogs, Pierre …. more often than not your perceptions are prescient. And you earn the right to say ‘i told u so’ more often than not.
If only you had the courage to apologise for the odd occasions where you are completely off-target: honesty can only enhance your credibility. (Erasmus Commission, ahem ahem)
Belle says:
June 4, 2010 at 17:03 pm
Hmmm!
Could it be that Pierre’s “perceptions are prescient” when he is busy smacking the ANC in some or other way (which is more often than not) and otherwise he is “completely off-target”?
Just checking.
Good question, Maggs.
… perhaps if I spammed Pierre’s blogs as garrulously as you do we would be able to answer it with some degree of accuracy?
Belle says:
June 5, 2010 at 9:47 am
hahahaha.
As I suspected – anti-ANC comments are “prescient” while anything not consistent with smacking the progressive movements and their transformation agendas are “garrulous spam”.
umm …. your logic baffles me, Maggs. Please clarify, for slow-brainers like myself.
That is a common reaction to Maggs’ logic. ‘Reaction’ as in ‘side-effect’. So, do not blame yourself.
In turn, Maggs is constantly baffled by other people’s logic.
How shall we put it so as not to upset Michael…..?
Lets say Maggs’ is an esoteric intellect?
Remember,Maggs is young. He has a lot to learn. He will go far. Thanks.
@ Dwkory.
Let’s should not interrupt adults’ conversations.