What is going on at the Electoral Commission (as the IEC is called in the Consgitution)? They will spend almost R1 billion this year to deliver a free and fair election to all South Africans. One would think with this money they could pay someone to design the necessary forms to comply with the law and the decisions of the Constitutional Court – even on short notice.
However, if one goes to the IEC website and downloads the form that has to be filled in by all voters who wish to cast a special vote because they will be out of the country on election day, one discovers that the IEC has not changed this form to comply with the recent Constitutional Court judgment allowing all registered voters abroad to cast their ballot.
The form requires one to state why one will be temporary absent from the Republic on voting day. It also requires one to state that one is ordinarily resident in the Republic and to provide ones permanent address in the country. The form therefore creates the impression that only South Africans who are temporarily outside the country will be allowed to cast a special vote.
But the Constitutional Court clearly ruled last week that the requirement that one could only vote abroad if one was absent from the country temporarily was unconstitutional. That is why it ordered that the word “temporary” in section 33(1)(e) of the Electoral Act and in Regulations 6(e), 11, 12 and 13 be deleted.
This ruling clearly envisages that the IEC would produce a new form to accommodate these changes to the law. I imagine that many South Africans who live abroad who had not read the Constitutional Court judgment would look at this form and will decide that they are not eligible to vote because they are not out of the country temporarily and do not have a permanent address in South Africa.
The form will therefore have a chilling effect on the right to vote as it might discourage many people from applying for a special vote. The IEC may therefore very well be in contempt of court by using this old form and by not taking the trouble to design a new form to accommodate the Constitutional Court ruling.
There are at least three possible reasons for this oversight. Maybe the relevant IEC officials are incompetent or stupid and do not realise that the Constitutional Court judgment also allows South Africans who are not abroad temporarily to vote. Given the salaries paid to top IEC officials this would be troubling. As would the second reason, namely that the relevant officials know that the form is not complying with the Constitutional Court ruling but was too lazy to change it. This second explanation would also demonstrate a contempt for the Constitutional Court that is breathtaking.
But maybe the relevant officials know exactly what they are doing and left the form unchanged because they want to circumvent the decision of the Constitutional Court and want to discourage South Africans abroad from voting. I would not have given this theory any credence but for the fact that IEC chairperson Brigalia Bam told Helen Zille: ¨Why should South Africans living abroad have a right to vote because they ran away and bitch about the crime in the country?¨
We therefore know that the chairperson of the IEC does not agree with the ruling of the Constitutional Court. In the light of this, it is entirely reasonable to ask whether the IEC – under instructions of its chairperson – is defying the Constitutional Court judgment and is therefore in contempt of court.
The IEC has a legal duty to immediately change this form to comply with the decision of the Constitutional Court. If they fail to do this thousands of potential voters might well be disenfranchised. This is a no-brainer. If they do not agree to change the form forthwith surely it will be reasonable to deduce that the IEC is intentionally defying the Constitutional Court and is trying to disenfranchise some voters because it has made scurrilous generalisations about those voters and do not like them.
The ball is in the IEC’s court.
This is just a general question: do all those who fly the ANC flag understand that in a successful democracy or merely a sucessful society it is essential to continuously attack and criticise the establishment?
As soon as individuals declare certain figures or party’s beyond cirticism we slowly start slipping toward the slop of totalitarianism.
Why is it that those who refuse to acknowledge the shortcomings of the current administration do it not with objective rational dialogue, but with nationalist fervour and in complete ignorance of the constitution.
When will the majority of this country accept democracy, transparency and individual rights over monarchies and idol worship and learn to question the acitons of their leaders?
What is the reason for resisting the change that is possible in this country? the government act in exactly the same fashion as the previous regime. with no regard for the interest of the majority and with a clear motive of wealth seeking and ensuring that the poor, uneducted and untreated remain poor, uneductated and untreated. At least the apartheid government were clear about their intentions. Our present government operates under the monikers of ‘equality’, ‘dignity’ and ‘freedom’. But all that has occurd is a lot of lip service and very very little change.
Hello,
Well, let us all complain to the IEC then. Send a complaint to vec10@elections.org.za copied to iec@elections.org.za.
Perhaps it is also a good idea to complain that Winnie Mandela will be allowed to stand despite her criminal record (http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=960238)
Eish! I m getting tired of this “voters abroad” obsession. These are, mostly, the people who CHOSE to leave due to their disloyalty to the country, I dont see why should anything extra ordinary be done to accomodate them! If they are really serious, they ll come home, register at the IEC offices, vote on the 22nd April and fly back to wherever they came from. Everybody surely knows there is no money lying around to make 11th hour logistical provisions for South Africans abroad-they must expect that in 2014 atleast. There are many more important things we must debate and address here at home, like the wonderful visit by President Zuma to the church yesterday. What a man! Reaching out to all sectors of society like that, indeed, there is none like him!
Shut up, Spuy
Tony, how much do you think it d cost the IEC to make provision for you and your ilk there in Virginia to vote?(assuming that you r not in the Free State one of course) Does the IEC have that much currently? And as for your other friends sprinkled all over the world? …..just get real and grow the hell up! The whole world is in full blown rescession-well, almost!
…by the way, dont you dare tell me to shut up, boy!…you react to what I say, or indeed, shut up, or rather, shut your ugly face, cowboy!
In case you’ve been snoozing, the courts have ruled in our favor (at least some of us), and I will be driving to Washington, DC to cast my vote instead of flying to South Africa. So get over it.
…let the whole loyal citizens to this country be an even deeper financial crisis right Tony, or izit António in full? As long as you have your precious vote…selfish! Where the IEC can – its fine. But please dont expect it to go out of its way to accomodate produgal sons, atleast not in these elections given the obvious. As a patriot, albeit abroad, you wouldnt want us all here at home to looses more jobs cos part of the money for the envisaged economic rescue plans must be given to the IEC, now would you, Tony?
Spuy, you’re a first class idiot – I agree with Tony – please shut up, or at least grow a brain cell or two and contribute constructively to the debate.
To debate your points (although I do wonder how much of the economic recession you actually comprehend), if funding is an excuse to deny people their constituionally enshrined rights, as you seem to argue it is, then by your logic it is absolutely fine for the government not to provide services if a specific budget is exceeded. In other words, because it’s an economic recession, if the government decided that it didn’t have money lying around to provide free healthcare, it would be perfectly acceptable to do so, for example. Or should we only get denied the rights that it suits the ANC to deny us, such as expats voting? This would seem to be a more racist presumptive argument than a logical one, which wouldn’t suprise me given your usual posting style.
In addition, given the countless tales of unauthorised overspending that keep cropping up in the Auditor-General’s reports, it would suggest to me that there is money lying around, government just doesn’t know how to use it. This is given further credence by the fact that the Free State has run out of money for ARVs, but still has money for funding political parties, as a specific example.
So therefore, your argument that there is no money is specious and false. Further, even if there was “no money”, your argument that it is acceptable to deny a South African citizen his or her constitutional rights based on poor fiscal prudence by the government is also false, both legally (check the Constitution, and if you find the clause which permits economic conditions to suspend rights please let me know), and logically – purely because the government could then suspend any right if it deemed it economically prudent to do so.
Zuma’s visit to Rhema church is not worthy of debate, and is not significant – it is election time, and the man is trying to convince everybody he can that he will hold their specific interests dear to him – it’s called electioneering. However, it is worthwhile noting that you mention how wonderful he is for reaching out to all members of society – perhaps you should try the same, and start to understand that expats are by and large very patriotic citizens of SA.
If you feel that we are disloyal, I would suggest you write to our president and castigate him for encouraging South Africans to live and work abroad, in order to gain valuable skills and experience (yes, the ANC guy who runs the country at the moment). Further, I would recommend that you write a letter to the Constitutional Court and rebuke the Justices for reaffirming that we are indeed true citizens of South Africa, because clearly you know more than they do. May I also suggest you write an open letter to the very many non-white South African expats living and working overseas, of which there are thousands, because it seems to me that you presume that only us wit ou’s leave the country.
I would also like you to inform us of your sources for your learned opinion of expats – you must have spoken to very many of us and gauged our views and reasons for leaving our beloved homeland for you to have such strong opinions about us. I am correct in presuming this?
Finally, putting the burden on the voter to make his or her way back to South Africa is illogical when it is clear that the IEC already makes provision for certain South Africans to vote overseas. It is unfair to expect certain South Africans to spend thousands of dollars / euros / pounds to cast their vote, when other South Africans overseas can cast theirs without spending more than a cabfare. Again, I am presuming that you would have no problem if you were overseas to spend this money, while others didn’t have to?
I eagerly await your response, which will no doubt include the general idea that I am racist, disloyal, stupid, an instrument of the West, and will then spout forth platitudes about your beloved leader in a silly attempt to distract the discussion and completely avoid the fact that you just had your moronic argument torn to shreds, if I do say so myself.
And yes, Spuy, the right to vote is precious…remember the Struggle? The people who died for that right?
For many years now, whenever a white South African criticised something or another, they were exhorted by their black compatriots to ‘go back where they came from’ (wherever that might be). A one-time contributor to this blog – a particularly obnoxious individual whose name escapes me now (was it lindelani?) – wanted the entire white population to be banished to some faraway island. Even our former Minister of Crime recommended that “whingers” leave the country.
Now, all of a sudden, whites who have taken heed of all this advice are deemed “unpatriotic”. Will some people please make up their minds?
Big Slipper, please dont slip up! What I am merely saying is that it would indeed be patriotic for some of you abroad, those who can of course-of which I assume there s many, to come home and vote. This would indeed be true patriotism. It is indeed ignorant to think there can still be extra money when Trevor projected a deficit going forward from now. If you guys are genuine about voting, Big Slipper, you ll come home cause you can given what you guys are earning that side. There are still many constitutional rights which the government hasnt fully met, which are by far-very basic, precisely due to lack of funds. So, I hönestly dont get your point by saying just because the ConCourt said so, the entire budget must be channelled to making sure that the judgement is fully realised immediately-thats unrealistic, selfish and seriously moronic. I said, where possible-yes-the IEC must assist, in fact, as far as possible, BUT let us just not expect a full blown implementation of this judgement in these elections. What is so difficult to understand about this? (goeie genade!)
Hey,
Thanks for this posting pierre. I never would have thought that the contempt of the courts, especially the prominent constitutional court could be possible by the state.
I feel the spirit of the constitutional order is absent in popular culture, and in the politics of those who run the other arms of government.
I also feel most people don’t know what the constitution is. or their relationship to the constitution. I learned the constitutional law at a school of law, and now i can visualize and conceptualize what the constitutional state or republic is.
Most people don’t. Their contact with the law is mainly with the power and violence of the criminal law. And i feel they infer the character of the entire law and that of the republic from that interaction. Plus must people are oppressed in systems that don’t allow them to characterize and interact and inform the law in their every day lives. there is no civic culture in this republic. One argument is that it is because of a lack of education. That’s insufficient. It also has to do with other aspects of political socialization and sociality in this country.
I think my friend thembi is right. absolutely. that the constitutional law must be taught from primary school down till the end of schooling to empower the ‘citizens’ with the law.
“…visualise and conceptualise..” the economic meltdown globally and the fact that it is now in full scale in South Africa, such that, soon rather than later, government is going to be forced to come up with some interventionist approach as some sort of short term remedy to this crisis, Katleho, rather than for you to come and tell us about how much of constitutional law you studied-we, or rather, I could care less about that, cos I dont see how it will see us out of this economic crisis!
And Katlego, just avoid this amateurish “learned” language in future and stop embarassing yourself. Use simple grammar like me so that you can be understood, or atleast finish your degree and then tell us about your “civic cultures”, whatever the hell that is.
but then again, maybe I m just being bullish and intolerent to opposing or differing views, hey?….typical! (bloody ANC members)
Spuy, no, you have a bigger problem. What you are saying is that an independent constitutionally created institution (IEC) must ignore the law and a judgement of the highest land and break the law and act illegally because you do not like the individuals who are benefiting from the protection afforded by the Constitution. This makes you a very dangerous person as you are advocating that state institutions should break the law for short term party political goals. It makes you a person advocating criminality, if not a criminal. If you used your real name on this Blog I bet you would not have had the guts to propagate such a subversive and idiotic idea. Or are you thinking that we only need to obey the law when it suits us?
C’mon Comrades, let’s not get personal with “shadappa your face” etc. This debate has both a constitutional and a moral aspect to it, and although Spuy’s argument about the morality of the expat vote is crude* and clearly aimed at eliciting reaction, he is entitled to his opinion. Let’s attack the argument and not the person.
Spuy, see http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Civic_culture.
“Civic culture is a term coined by Gabriel A. Almond and Sidney Verba (1963) to describe the set of related political and social attitudes said to be crucial to the success of modern democracies. Using what were at the time new survey research techniques, Almond and Verba studied attitudes in five countries: England, Germany, Italy, Mexico, and the United States. In the process, they shifted comparative political studies away from a nearly exclusive preoccupation with constitutional analysis to the study of comparative behavior.
The authors updated their earlier work in 1989.
The original publication of this book had a great impact. As a result of Almond and Verba’s work, the term “civic culture” has a narrower focus than the larger subject of culture in general. “Civic culture” relates to cultural attitudes. Other cultural objects, both material and symbolic, that might be associated with civic attitudes and behavior have received comparatively less emphasis by political scientists under the rubric of civic culture. Among these, for example, might be included such civic culture objects as patriotic parades and public gatherings, public proclamations and speeches by public officials, public statuary, and numerous other cultural objects.”
Spot on, Katlego!
*(phew, I almost said something about his spelling, but fortunately I stopped myself at the last minute),
Actually, I think that the IEC is just VERY SLOW to post information on their website. They have only just posted the lists of candidates, and the News section is a week out of date.
Ten days before the registration cut-off and you still do not have a proper form for submission for registration if you are outside the country.
Round number three may then well be whether there has been a free and fair election. If a significant part of the electorate is unlawfully disenfranchised, do you have a legitimate election?
On a different note, I am rather suprised (some will say I shouldn’t be) that our dear Prof, who has in the past made it his mission to teach the likes of Julius Malema and some in the ANC about our beloved constitution, has somehow chosen to overlook Helen Zille’s reported comments.
The “World Mayor of the Year” is reported to have said she’ll bring in the army to deal with those rascal taxi drivers. However, those in the know reckon that she’s clearly on something because she has no such powers.
Now, one would have expected Prof to quickly jump in and save the Mayor/Presidential Candidate/Premier Candidate (talk about having faith in your fellow leaders or is it just about being power hungry?) some embarassment. Whilst I do not subscribe to the notion that everything is somehow linked to racism, I think it is important that our analysts at least try to appear as impartial – we know they aren’t but at least give it a try. We shouldn’t be giving these people who always cry racism any ammunition but omissions like these do, regrettably, give credence to such claims!!
Mzo, you are right one should try and be even handed. But Helen Zille is only the mayor of a mid-sized city, so what she says does not always catch my attention – just because its not that important in the bigger scheme of things.
But Prof, we are talking about a leader of the opposition here who could very well be the Premier of the Western Cape. Surely, if she doesn’t understand her constitutional powers (as she clearly does not – if the reports are true) then this needs to be brought to her attention.
I think it would very very dangerous if we only looked at the conduct of those in the ruling party or in leadership in our Chapter 9 institutions. These politicians (all of them) need to know the constitution before they poison the minds of those less informed members of our sociey.
Ai Mzo, I was being a bit tongue in cheek. Cheer up.
I personally know a nurse from rural KZN who put all her younger siblings through varsity with her earnings from nursing in the UK. I sat next to her mom on the plane. What a contribution.
A lot of people on his block think that expatriates will stem the ANC victory. Two thirds majority. You are in for a rude shock ! let every absentee voter go vote a party of choice!
I really do not think the decision of the CC will make a big difference to the outcome of the election as many people who have left South Africa will not bother to vote, have not registered, or stay in places far away from South Africa’s diplomatic missions (where they will be able to vote) and will not travel far distances merely to vote in our election. However, if by-elections results are anything to go by, COPE may well make a difference to the outcome of the election and will most probably bring the ANC’s margin down to between 60 and 63% (down from 70%).
@ Mzo 8:43am.
“The “World Mayor of the Year” is reported to have said she’ll bring in the army…” And from that you draw the inference that P de V is partial. Had you taken the trouble to find out what she actually said, ie that the army should be brought in, and not by her, it would have been clear that there was nothing to defend.
So the FF+, the initiators of the action to allow Ex Pats (or at least some of them) to Vote has also been the first to lodge a complaint against Winnie’s inclusion by the IEC as a Parliamentary Candidate.
Why are they so active all of a sudden? Is it because they see this as a clear way to circumvent the lack of election coverage any of the opposition parties are receiving? A more expensive, but classier, response than climbing up on stage and scaring the shit out of Tim Modise I’ll say!
CD said there are 10 days left to register, this is not true as I’ve called them yesterday at the reginal office and I phoned the toll free number and they informed me that all registrations have closed. So I asked for a special vote, they said no, special votes only for already registered voters. How sad for me, but not for you Ismael.
Prof, I know this is not a constitutional subject, but have you ever considered giving some ideas about this adv. Barbie, who is pleading someone else was holding her remote controll. I would really like to read something about this plead and gender equality.
http://www.watkykjy.co.za/uploaded_images/zumatello-713490.jpg
Friend, the CC made clear that they were not deciding on registration and the voters role closed on the day the election was proclaimed, so if you are not registered you cannot vote.
On Advocate Barbie, I used to teach criminal law and know that case law allow for a defense of criminal incapacity. But you will have to show that at the time you committed the act you were incapable of knowing what you were doing or incapable of acting in accordance with any knowledge you might have had and this was clearly not the case here. A second defense would be necessity which would exclude unlawfulness. This defense can work when you can show that you had no choice but to act illegally, usually because of a threat to your life or other threat of force. So if someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to do something illegal, say. Once again this seems like a very long shot for Advocate Barbie as she was with her partner for a long time. I have not attended the trial but I would be extremely surprised if she is not convicted. These other factors may then become relevant in mitigation of sentence.
Thanks prof, I just read the news and I got rather upset by another inocent little victem post of this person who did very bad things with her lover and now her defence relies very much on the premise that a lot of boys will not really mind being molested by her. I don’t know, voting day I’ll make my own little pamphlets at home and vote for who ever the hell I like while I humm little rhyms.
IEC to fix website
The Independent Electoral Commission will spend R3 million to fix its broken website as complaints mount.
The South African Independent Electoral Commission will spend R3 million to fix its website following complaints from users that the site was unavailable to web browsers other than Internet Explorer.
The election body, which kicks off its national voter registration drive this coming weekend, is also expected to respond today to a human rights complaint filed against for its inaccessible website.
Libisi Maphanga, chief information officer at the IEC, says that the organisation is “well aware” of the problems with the website and the complaints from users.
Maphanga said that a “project team” had be set up to fix the problem and it was expected to have the first phase of the all-access website up and running by January 2009. A second phase was expected to add more content by April 2009, just in time for the national elections.
The project to make the website available to all users will cost around R3 million, says Maphanga. He says that because of a growing “campaign” from disgruntled citizens complaining about the website and the “disruption to our regular work” this was causing, other projects have been put on hold so that budget could be allocated to fixing the website. The IEC also applied for supplemental funding from government for the website but this was denied.
Disruptions
Maphanga said that he receives around “20 emails a day” complaining about the website, “many of which are very rude”.
The problem with the website, he says, is that it was originally developed in 1998. At the time the site was developed on Microsoft-specific technologies and now needs to be completely revamped before it can be made available to all users. He says that the current website when viewed in a non-Internet Explorer browser is “very broken” and that is “not good for the image of the organisation”.
Maphanga said that the IEC couldn’t simply allow access to all users because there was a “risk that users might get the wrong information”. He said that much of the content relies on old VBScripts and even, in some more advanced sections, on users having Microsoft Windows to access the site.
Growing campaign
The IEC’s woes are far from over, however, as a new campaign around the website was launched today by disgruntled citizens. The No Firefox! No Vote! campaign, founded by well-known open source advocate Karl Fischer, is urging Internet users to email or fax Maphanga to demand that the organisation make its website available to all users.
The purpose of the article above is to show the PDV that there has always been a problem with the IEC website. I think you haven’t been following the complaints about the site. The complains recently have been about the site not be updated regularly.
I have always maintained that the reason in the first place for the unconsitutional conduct of the IEC by not extending the special vote to the ex-pats was it biased towards the ANC. I am not sure why the oposition parties were so slow to react to this, but well done none-the-less!
I am really troubled by the statements of Mzo. These statements seem to suggest that ex pats should not be allowed to vote due their loyalty. Well the argument can not hold because the right to vote as envisaged in the constitution does not extend to loyal citizens but to all citizens – even criminals and if you like disloyal citizens.
Now I would also consider it a fallacy to consider the that all ex pats are disloyal as people leave the country for a variety of reasons. Not long ago even our Safety and Security Minister suggsted that if we dont feel safe we should leave. I would suggest, therefore, even as far as the ANC is concerned, a loyal citizen can relocate if he feels unsafe.
I should add that the entire debate is futile as the court has ruled.
Niel // Mar 17, 2009 at 10:42 am
Isn’t that just the point? How many times have we seens posts on this blog on things that are reported to have been said (as opposed to whether they were actually said or not)? But now that it is the World Mayor of the Year saying it, we actually need to find the transcript / video footage of her exact words. Please!!
William // Mar 17, 2009 at 12:20 pm
“I am really troubled by the statements of Mzo. These statements seem to suggest that ex pats should not be allowed to vote due their loyalty.”
You must be referring to “Mpho”, not me. Maybe the ryhme confused you
:)
What did I do????? William, please don’t mistake me for Mzo. I am the wrong sex and not nearly as sexy as Mzo is.
Mzo // Mar 17, 2009 at 12:51 pm
I suggest you read http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3086&art_id=vn20090316055815170C820748 . Unfortunatelly, Zille acted after due consultation with her ANC counterpart i.e. Lynne Brown, only to be stabbed in the back by the same person she invested her faith in.
So, on the global scene – DA 1 / ANC 0 . Let’s face it Mzo, there is nothing world class about the ANC (except maybe their lack of credibility and poor service delivery results).
mili // Mar 17, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Typical. It’s easier to believe Zille than to believe the Premier. I long for the day when we, as the general public, can simply admit when our leaders have messed up instead of always trying to blame other people. Zille needs to understand her constitutional powers just like the likes of Julius Malema, Gwede Mantashe (as pointed out by Prof in some of his posts – sometimes correctly so) also need to learn about this document called the Constitution.
Judging by the above responses it certainly looks as though the Internet Explorer Clowns (IEC) are in contempt of the Court of Public Opinion.
Mpho – how can you be “the wrong sex”? Aren’t you a woman? Ever heard of “the fairer sex”?
Clara, I’m the wrong sex to be mistaken for the sexy Mzo! I’m the right sex to be mistaken for me.
Does anyone know what we should do with the form once it is filled in? There is no information on the form instructing us what to do with it.
Mzo // March 17 2009 at 12.51pm
Fact is, you are clutching at a straw that does not exist in order to make a point that does not exist.
Niel, whether the criticism of Zille was appropriate or not could be canvassed in response to a piece by Pierre, could it not? Pierre runs with newspaper reports on the ANC when the papers report the ANC to have said something Pierre regards as dodgy (ie Balfour’s comments). As your mind is satisfied that she has nothing to answer, must the rest of us be denied any option for debate?
Hello. I must say that it find it frightening that almost anything said here can be reduced to politics or race. I work with South Africans working and living abroad all the time. Actually, some of our Ambassodors are doing an excellent job of staying in touch with the expat communities in other countries (like in Vietnam). You wont believe how much oats, mieliepap and other stuff I have to fly around the world with me as our expats work in places where you can only dream of the lekker food we have here. You will note that I dont refer to the race of these expats, because when 300 of them are stuck together in Ghana, Vietnam, Indonesia or Argentina, their race doesnt matter. I wish we can say the same here within the borders.
Should our white and black expats, posted by the likes of SAB, Goldfields, Standard Bank, ABI and many other fine South African companies to lead international units or to work on international projects not be allowed to vote. Are they all now unpatriotic whites? You are indeed very mistaken if you think this is the case.
I stayed recently in a hotel in Ghana with 70 South Africans renting rooms on longer term contracts. They are white and black and doing some mighty fine work over there (building houses, electricity networks, fixing hospitals, training the AU army, etc). The only think I could not agree with was the bluebull flag hoisted next to the pool, but at least they served castle, and Klipdrif. Back to the point. They were of all races. The global demand for talent is on, and it does not only select pissed off whites from South Africa. I
We are now part of the international community, and South African management expertise is sought all over the world. South Africans (white and black) make fantastic operations, logistics and business managers. We must do everything in our power to keep these people connected to our country, as our destiny is also affected by their remittances, their talents and their ambassor status abroad. We must make it as easy as possible for these people to come back and start companies & institutions here, or to take up senior government positions. Come on, man. The guys who have fled the ‘swart-gevaar’ are not interested to vote.
But please realise, not everybody that left has fled ‘swart gevaar’. Many left because of crime and some of the other ills that have befallen our country. Others left because we are now part of the global community with global opportunities. Just because I choose not to work in South Africa does not make me unpatriotic. I simply get paid three times more outside the borders, which means I can spend a lot of time with my family when not travelling.
I have taken an exception about the fact that Professor De Vos and his ilk attack me personally for simply having a different view, which I am entitled to. All I simply say is that, given the current economic meltdown, it might not be possible for the IEC to realise a full implementation of these new amendments. …Come on, Pierre, what happened to freedom of speech?….I thought that was the whole purpose of this blog!…I mean, how is what I am saying tantamout to advocating for the breaking of the law?….and if anywhere, was it so difficult to point it out to me without resorting to all sorts of insults and intimedations, what nauseate me more, is the fact that it would appear that this blog was created for the “YES MAN” or is it “YES PROF”? With me, you better think again brother!
Hey people, check out http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=793, http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=792, http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=532, http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526, where I rather vigorously criticise Helen Zille. If I have to write a Blog post every time a politician does or says something stupid I would never sleep. So, I do think I am relatively even handed, independent and fair. Which does not mean that I am “objective” as I am not sure it is possible to ever be objective. As the Constitutional Court has said every person – even a judge – cannot be absolutely objective as if the the sum total of their experience, knowledge, views and emotions can somehow be discarded completely. None of us can ever be a blank slate. We can only try and be fair, honest and consistent while at the same time subjecting our own views and point of view to self-criticism and opening up our minds to alternatives. That I try to do to the best of my ability. I hope you all do the same. (Especially the last bit is important – if one is not prepared to be self-critical one cannot become aware of the often latent, unspoken, assumptions and prejudices that one might hold without even knowing it.)
Spuy, the CC made a ruling and gave an order. The IEC needs to obey this order. They cannot say that they do not have money and time to obey the order. If they do that they will be in contempt of court. There is no discretion. The fact that you seem to argue as if there is, seems to be troubling as it suggests you think obeying the decisions of the CC is optional. Or is there another way to interpret your view?
Shawn // Mar 17, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Great comment. I agree. The guys who fled the country wont care in any case but those expats who love SA will vote. It’s because of the latter that we should support this judgement.
Spuy, you clearly understand Freedom-of-Speech the same way that criminals understand their rights in SA.
Please use Freedom-of-Speech in a positive way. An out of the box idea to help solve a problem. If not…..just shutt up. Remember that you don’t HAVE to say anything just because you got internet-access at work and that your boss think that you are working. If you cannot contribute to this article, use your Freedom-of-Silence.
Good article Pierre !
Ishmael Malale,
I do hope you know why we, the ex-pats, can’t all vote, if you don’t see the Prof’s response above.
The truth Ismael Malale is that if all ex-pats could be given a chance to vote their vote could significantly affect the ANC’s two-third majority. I guess you know this and that is why you are happy that we can’t all vote.
Now Malale, why do you need a two-thirds majority? What are you going to do differently this time except change the constitution to suit your beloved leader?
Mpho, thank you. My point exactly.
Individuals can argue all they like regarding the rights, or the lack there of, of the citizens that has gone abroad for whatever reason.
Majority of them have probably left because they were fed up of the way things are being run in SA and would like to have their say as to which party should be in control of government.
Who knows…. we might even see an influx of expats once they are satisfied with the state of the nation.
Let them have their say and the IEC should be held accountable by the Court of Law for their defiance!!!
Francois, A right to health, education, clean water, shelter etc are very basic constitutionally. I bet you, if any person, or FF plus, was to take gov to the CC on any of these, the CC would obviously rule in their favour. Still, that wouldnt change the fact that it is going to take some time to fully provide this. Why should the right of South Africans abroad be realised (fully) overnight, even if it might not be possible?….be realistic!…Anyway, Anyone ever heard of a saying “I WRITE WHAT I LIKE”?…I guess some of you havent!
We need more than two third so that we should not be canvassing for support from Zille who seems to be making a fool of herself every moment she opens her red big mouth!
The army fanatic who wants to march into the township to mow down africans on issues which require engagement. The army is not a police force. It may only be used to fight external threats not simple police matters. There is no state of emergency in South Africa ti warrant their intervention !. We do not need such a clumsy leader!
She yearns for those days when the army and security forces dealt with us. Its over Zille. The only recognisable role is when she exposed her apartheids brothers on the Steve Biko assassination for cheap personal fame as a liberal journalist.
Virginia please do not regard expatriates as anti-ANC.
Are expatriates only racist whites? I do think we have level headed south africans whose votes may well spread across the diverse political spectrum.
I knew that the CC cannot take an irrational decision which would have made it difficult to continue with elections.
As for the form, come on there is not any contempt of court. The form does not prohibit any person to request for a special vote. The lack of creativity cannot reaaly suggest what Prof says. If he thinks I am wrong. He must advise the brothers in FF+ to run to the Court for contempt of court. Just skip the part and fill the relevant elements.
I enjoy the jurisprudence of 2009. As for prof your vote is not secret but written in your views s for mine and ANC activist.
It is not possible that any of us will spoil his unless you draw a funny Zuma head on your ballot. I have discounted 3% from the initial ANC support on account of COPE emergence.
This is an insignificant impact. I have seen that former DA support base want to fraternise with COPE on its stance on AA. In fact COPE lost the plot and DA will loose some of its voters to COPE
The ANC will still have a two thirds majority not for anything but solid authority to legislate and govern this country without the need for a coliation !
Most of contributors and blog visitors are decided voters. This is a new blof to ventilate our anger at one another for carthartic effect!
There is less education here know!
On the winnie case we need a judgment too! Tony Yengeni is not going to Parliament! He will be used in other areas of extra parliamentary struggle for social transformation which will keep you worked up!
After elections there will be massive delivery on all fronts which will see you all submerged under your tables in disbelief!
Your liberal thoughts can not deter us. This is a cruccial moment of the revolution. We will pass this litmus test with all the determination and courage.
We would like to see the tears of expatriates after elections can anyone challenge to SABC to cover all countries where expatriates would be voting?
Spuy,
I did not like what you wrote. I felt you were attacking me, not necessarily what i wrote.
@Spuy How much can it cost to update the form that must be filled in by all voters who wish to cast a special vote? A few rands? Trying to argue that this will have a significant financial impact on SA is disingenuous. More importantly, it is a non-issue: the IEC cannot decide whether or not to implement the CC’s decision. Finish and klaar.
Katlego, I read your article and find it so inspiring. Are you a law student or a recent doctoral graduate! I think constitutional law must be taught at all levels to avert the gullibility of students to racist attacks masquarated as legal scholasticism.
When contributors present diametrically oppossed views to the King of Law on the blog a ton of bricks will descend down on that person.
There are good contributors who seem to have taken a back seat because the polemic has gone for the throat not the effect of the ink.
Spuy, I know that you are under attack from the moral crusaders, probably anguished expatriates who will literally live you naked when you do not praise then for their coarse vitriol directed at anything looking like the ANC.
These guys have lost any sense of robust discourse and sunstituted same for derogatory epithets and we are almost acculturated to this. You should not attack Katlego. He seems a good person of his theories. A lot can be extracted from his contribution.
I am personally not happy when a person is unable to vote. Even if a patriot who professes to hate the ANC and democracy does vote I rejoice in the victory of voting. The reason that I want to ensure that more South Africans vote is to justify the legitimacy of the ANC government under Zuma come the 27th of April 2009. The inauguration day!
Prof. donate me an old suite for the ocassion. I am moneyless. I hope that would not be classified as a bribe for future favours.
The ANC government made it possible for all sort of nonsense to be written and spoken by expert and layperson alike! I will be criticised for such an innocent request! Ha! ha! ha! I will declare!
I will refuse to seat in any committee where any idea from you is discussed in case I am arrested for agreeing with you on the grounds of the warmth of the suite!
Jeeves \ you could have simply sent a proposed new form. The IEC might just cast it on the internet to be downloaded by the expatriates !
Ishmael, you seem to think that anybody not voting for the ANC will be shattered when the ANC wins. I assure you, this is not so. We have put up with the ANC’s wretched antics for many years now, and will not be surprised as the ANC continues them into the future.
All we want is a chance to participate in OUR democracy (yes, it’s the ANC’s – sort of – but it also belongs to the rest of the country). I’ll be voting for a losing party, but at least I will have respected and honoured the blood that was shed by mine and millions of other families for that right.
You need to stop being so sensitive about people who don’t like the ANC. While you may think criminal behaviour is perfectly acceptable, some of us do not. It does not mean we will be surprised or destroyed when the ANC wins. Rhetorical outbursts and sanctimonious pontifications are the standard in South African politics – nobody really pays any attention to them anymore, so give it up and stop telling us how we will react and how we feel, and what that means. Let us rather, as you so often lament, debate the issues at hand – this particular one being about the fact that expats are South African citizens, and deserve the right to vote, legally and morally.
Just a twist…
Like Shabir Shaik, Zuma will soon be a free man. When the NPA drops charges against Zuma, please spare us the “Zuma is innocent” lie, because if he was, he would have proved his innocence in court.
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/dailymailer.aspx?ID=BD4A961623
Big Slipper, the CC has pronounced that everybody including the expatriates must be allowed to vote not the lazy ones who could not register to vote ever since 1994 and want to be dragged to websites to do so long after the voter’s roll is closed.
We are really fermenting a storm in a very small coffee cup. Everybody will vote for a party of choice. I totally concur with your last sentence. They only correct thing you asserted!
This blog has lapsed into a feat of lamentations with less intellectual content. It is what I point out in my commensurate outburst to the nonsense spewed by disillusioned moral purists of your calibre.
The ANC has given you a channels and plaforms to ventilate your viewpoints without hindrance but a lot of time is spent in anger therapeutic course.
The ANC has never prohibited any person to enjoy our nascent democracy but in fact seeks to deepen it for ordinary south africans who had been subjugated for more or less three hundred years by your forebears.
All I see is vulgarisation and demeaning of our democracy by attacking South Africans who seek to use the constitutional tools to protect and advance their rights.
I deliberately launched an attack to stir a good response as I see the cacaphony is helpless or useless.
I have never cherished or condoned criminality and it seems that is a figment of your suppurating imagination. The ANC has never encouraged or abetted any criminality.
We have put all appropriate systems for you to effectively combat crime. Expose where you see it. It never happened in the heydays of your Apartheid system
I challenge you to put facts to prove your point. As for the Zuma pending trial. I had stated that I do not subscribe to your sense of morality.
Zuma can stand for elections like any other candidate so long as he remains not guilty. Should he be found guilt at any stage he will accordingly step down ! He is not a criminal!
He is merely facing charged which are yet to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, not on your weak malleable moral pandelum!
It is not my business what you vote for, its yours! What I care for is that every south african of sound mind must exercise that right.
The noise about expatriates is no longer relevant they can go vote. All of them! As for the unregistered ones, they will suffer the same fate of unregistered local south africans!
I am totally sceptical that your family shed any drop of blood, not even to donate for a family relative in hospital! We have suffered for you to insult us as you do! Chris had to be killed by Derby Lewis for you !
Mkhize, the debate deserved to be buried in the event thecharges are dropped.
Harping on the matter will be your mainstay. We truly will not entertain future stale news when the curtains close on this epic political trial!
As long as no one tries to pull wool over my eyes, you have yourself a deal, Malale.
Well, Dumisani. Our society is so complex! Things will unravel as we mark our space in history. This blog is interesting!
After this election Parliament may want to consider allowing postal voting in future elections. Although not without its problems, it would allow many more South Africans to participate in deciding their futures.
The VEC10 form has been updated by the IEC (http://www.elections.org.za/Documents/Voting2009/VEC10%20absence%20from%20the%20Republic1.pdf)
Any chance of getting a copy put on this website as a documents of interest? (On numerous occasions in the past, I’ve had problems with the IEC website- broken links, pages not loading, etc.)
Happy voting to all!
we celebrated universal adult suffrage long ago to be excited now! 15 years have erased so much of the apartheid era. even if FF+ wins with expatriate vote come the 22 feb 2009, they cannot take us back to the fascist regime !!!
Let us go vote! I can’t wait !
Well done Pierre!
Yeah! I am delighted that the IEC is honoring its commitment to deliver a free and fair election and that it has changed the form. Pity it had to be nudged and nagged to do the right thing. . .
Ishmael, you give me too much credit – the Apartheid system was never mine – I did not design, implement or support it, for I was only born in the 1980s. When the first black child was allowed into my school in 1991, I was happy to befriend him – I didn’t know skin colour was such an issue in SA, because I was only 8 years old.
My imagination does suppurate, but when it comes to the criminal conduct of the ANC, there is no imagination needed – in fact, the ANC is so accepting of crime, that they have nominated sterling examples of lawful citizens such as Winnie Madikizela-Mandale to sit in Parliment, in spite of the fact that she is currently serving a suspended sentence.
As a matter of interest, my brother was shot and murdered in 1983 at 18 years old as he skipped the country – he was running because he refused to fight in the bush wars against black South Africans. It may not count in your books, but my father would tell you otherwise. Chris Hani, again, was not killed for me – please refrain from trying to project things on to people like that, it is hurtful and unnecessary.
The issue here is that we are allowed to vote, and that we are considered South Africans – true-blooded patriots. This is justice.
Big Sslipper, I truly never meant to hurt you. I must confess I learnt the way of antagonistic polemics here. There is a potporri of hurtful remarks asserted here.
Winnie has served her sentence and cannot be regarded as a person who cannot participate in affairs of society. The Prisons are now referred to as correctional centres cultivating new persons for re-integration into the mainstream of society. Our law even recognises that is why section 47 allows persons to have a five years cool off period. There is not any total moralistic banishment .
On the question of legality of nomination of Winnie, the IEC or CC will swiftly resolve this little impasse in due course. We do not have to go to war on this!
The difficulty of this debate is that we are not willing to agree that we are poles apart as regards our understanding and content of the concept of morality. A concept devoid of monolithic content !
You seem to have the strong and absolute morality solution. Converse, I have my own dynamic of morality. I hold too deeply that all south africans have a right to vote regardless of their views about politics and their country. Wherever they within the resource capacity of our developing State.
Even the murders of Chris Hani, our liberator(to those who subscribe to the philosophy and programme of the ANC) will certainly vote.
The judgment of the Constitutional Court was justified! Expatriates cannot be treated any less South African. We have all colours out there; different political shades abound.
We should be torchbearers of nation building and not peddlers of racial prejudices which will perpetuate division and mistrust in our nascent democracy.
I am willing to serve under an expatriate President or government !