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	<title>Comments on: Lawyers&#8230;. and then we pay them for this</title>
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	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: Skhokho Radebe</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13770</link>
		<dc:creator>Skhokho Radebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13770</guid>
		<description>I think while debate is good. The attack on Adv Ngalwana is a clear lack of understanding of Ethics on your part, to call a duly admitted Advocate who has tons of experience &#039;an alleged&#039; is not only unethical it also shows total disrespect to fellow collegues. Adv Ngalwana is your senior, not only as an Advocate, but he has also acted as a Judge in the Labour Courts. What have you done besides hiding in your office writing silly articles, marking exams and assignments?. The Nicolson judgment was overturned for your information, therefore its not law anymore. Adv Ngalwana&#039;s submissions on the issue seems to make sense, but one should not say they are wrong hence they must be tested by a court of law. To say Adv Ngalwana has not read the Constitution, the case law on the matter is an insult and falls to be ignored. There is a sizeable difference between practical law and theory law and you seem to to have blurred the difference with your academic opinion. When last did you appear in the High Court to represent a client?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think while debate is good. The attack on Adv Ngalwana is a clear lack of understanding of Ethics on your part, to call a duly admitted Advocate who has tons of experience &#8216;an alleged&#8217; is not only unethical it also shows total disrespect to fellow collegues. Adv Ngalwana is your senior, not only as an Advocate, but he has also acted as a Judge in the Labour Courts. What have you done besides hiding in your office writing silly articles, marking exams and assignments?. The Nicolson judgment was overturned for your information, therefore its not law anymore. Adv Ngalwana&#8217;s submissions on the issue seems to make sense, but one should not say they are wrong hence they must be tested by a court of law. To say Adv Ngalwana has not read the Constitution, the case law on the matter is an insult and falls to be ignored. There is a sizeable difference between practical law and theory law and you seem to to have blurred the difference with your academic opinion. When last did you appear in the High Court to represent a client?</p>
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		<title>By: Friend</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13559</link>
		<dc:creator>Friend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13559</guid>
		<description>Thanks ozone</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks ozone</p>
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		<title>By: ozoneblue</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13524</link>
		<dc:creator>ozoneblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13524</guid>
		<description>Oghh... with so many disciples agreeing with the prof (again) I don&#039;t want to be the one to interrupting the mutual masturbation session.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oghh&#8230; with so many disciples agreeing with the prof (again) I don&#8217;t want to be the one to interrupting the mutual masturbation session.</p>
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		<title>By: Wessel van Rensburg (AKA mhambi)</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13523</link>
		<dc:creator>Wessel van Rensburg (AKA mhambi)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13523</guid>
		<description>Yes, welkom muis!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, welkom muis!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13522</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13522</guid>
		<description>Clara (and Friend) - Thanks for the welcome and sorry for the typo (the extra &#039;s&#039; in &#039;desert&#039;) - but yes, I have not &#039;deserted&#039; my beloved country,  &#039;SoufEfrica&#039; (Nam-fe in Mandarin) but, while sitting in the desert sun, feeling the cool Atlantic breeze and reeling in a few oversized kob&#039;s, I felt that I might just be persuaded to trade my loyalty and give up my job (it really could be equated with &#039;pudding&#039; when compared to what we have to face every day in the South African rat-race). But, quitters never win and winners never quit, and I have decided not to defect.

Having said that all, Mokotedi Mpshe is, to my mind, just making sure that he remains in the running to become the permanent NDPP after the election. I mean,  when he was appointed acting NDPP, he employed a panel of &#039;independent&#039; experts to check into the Selebi matter, and &#039;sommer&#039; also re-evaluated the Zuma thing and, hey Presto! Bothe were then found fit to be prosecuted. Surely the NIA phone-tapping records must then already have been available? One wonders whether Nicholso J did not know about those before he handed down his sorry judgment that there was politrical meddling. And, yes, the SCA did suggest that &#039;political meddling&#039;, if found to be present, would not really have been relevant in deciding the issue at hand. But Julius&#039; fantasy of people moving in the dark, which has been pounced upon by senior ANC members, really seems to have jolted the imagination of many, including &#039;Teddy&#039; Mpshe - so paving the way for JZ to stay out of court without having to disclose the so-called &#039;truth&#039; about who the real &#039;movers-and-shakers&#039; in the Arms Deal were and to become the next President. (By the way, doesn&#039;t his smiling face on the election placards (without the shower) remind one of that TV ad, &quot;I wanna be a Simba Chippy!&quot; - any relation to Chippy Shaik?)

Again - sorry for all the typos and language errors - still struggling with the German and Nama I again polished in Namibia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clara (and Friend) &#8211; Thanks for the welcome and sorry for the typo (the extra &#8216;s&#8217; in &#8216;desert&#8217;) &#8211; but yes, I have not &#8216;deserted&#8217; my beloved country,  &#8216;SoufEfrica&#8217; (Nam-fe in Mandarin) but, while sitting in the desert sun, feeling the cool Atlantic breeze and reeling in a few oversized kob&#8217;s, I felt that I might just be persuaded to trade my loyalty and give up my job (it really could be equated with &#8216;pudding&#8217; when compared to what we have to face every day in the South African rat-race). But, quitters never win and winners never quit, and I have decided not to defect.</p>
<p>Having said that all, Mokotedi Mpshe is, to my mind, just making sure that he remains in the running to become the permanent NDPP after the election. I mean,  when he was appointed acting NDPP, he employed a panel of &#8216;independent&#8217; experts to check into the Selebi matter, and &#8216;sommer&#8217; also re-evaluated the Zuma thing and, hey Presto! Bothe were then found fit to be prosecuted. Surely the NIA phone-tapping records must then already have been available? One wonders whether Nicholso J did not know about those before he handed down his sorry judgment that there was politrical meddling. And, yes, the SCA did suggest that &#8216;political meddling&#8217;, if found to be present, would not really have been relevant in deciding the issue at hand. But Julius&#8217; fantasy of people moving in the dark, which has been pounced upon by senior ANC members, really seems to have jolted the imagination of many, including &#8216;Teddy&#8217; Mpshe &#8211; so paving the way for JZ to stay out of court without having to disclose the so-called &#8216;truth&#8217; about who the real &#8216;movers-and-shakers&#8217; in the Arms Deal were and to become the next President. (By the way, doesn&#8217;t his smiling face on the election placards (without the shower) remind one of that TV ad, &#8220;I wanna be a Simba Chippy!&#8221; &#8211; any relation to Chippy Shaik?)</p>
<p>Again &#8211; sorry for all the typos and language errors &#8211; still struggling with the German and Nama I again polished in Namibia.</p>
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		<title>By: Wessel van Rensburg (AKA mhambi)</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13521</link>
		<dc:creator>Wessel van Rensburg (AKA mhambi)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13521</guid>
		<description>Aliveandlovingit! says:

&quot;In the US it is well documented that the intelligence agencies provided inaccurate information about IRAQ which led to the US invasion(to which the UK played a pivotal role) , they recently had a senator involved in corruption trying to buy his seat(Barack Obama’s old seat nogals).&quot;

I&#039;m affraid there absolutely no comparison. Not only did the CIA chief in charge loose his job **during Bush&#039;s term in office ** after a lengthy congressional hearing, but also the senior official mentioned trying to sell Obama seat did not get his way, and was so hounded by all and sundry that he gave up, in spite of his impressive thick skin.

Try some better examples please. Waiting...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aliveandlovingit! says:</p>
<p>&#8220;In the US it is well documented that the intelligence agencies provided inaccurate information about IRAQ which led to the US invasion(to which the UK played a pivotal role) , they recently had a senator involved in corruption trying to buy his seat(Barack Obama’s old seat nogals).&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m affraid there absolutely no comparison. Not only did the CIA chief in charge loose his job **during Bush&#8217;s term in office ** after a lengthy congressional hearing, but also the senior official mentioned trying to sell Obama seat did not get his way, and was so hounded by all and sundry that he gave up, in spite of his impressive thick skin.</p>
<p>Try some better examples please. Waiting&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: spoiler</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13520</link>
		<dc:creator>spoiler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13520</guid>
		<description>@ Mike A. Whatever actually happened behind the scenes we&#039;ll probably never know, but the latest revelations re Mpshe&#039;s famous speech are damning of the NPA. Mpshe is not  a judge but surely he should cite authority correctly and not disengenuously fail to mention that his rationale is based on an over ruled decision? Its elementary stuff and belies their haste to get the decision out a few weeks before the election. Can&#039;t get much more political than that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Mike A. Whatever actually happened behind the scenes we&#8217;ll probably never know, but the latest revelations re Mpshe&#8217;s famous speech are damning of the NPA. Mpshe is not  a judge but surely he should cite authority correctly and not disengenuously fail to mention that his rationale is based on an over ruled decision? Its elementary stuff and belies their haste to get the decision out a few weeks before the election. Can&#8217;t get much more political than that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Wessel van Rensburg</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13519</link>
		<dc:creator>Wessel van Rensburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13519</guid>
		<description>Aliveandlovingit! says there is corruption in developed countries as well. I don&#039;t disagree. 

The difference can be said is the number of incidents or perhaps their brazen nature or severity or even who commits them (even though the Royal family is gaffe prone &amp; over and under sexed they have not been involved in many corruption scandals as far as I know). Perhaps. 

But countries like India and China also have a lot of corruption. But its not eating at their body politic as ours is.

But India and particularly China punishes corrupt officials very harshly - the death penalty is quite common. 

That is the key difference. And it is multi-faceted. Not only is our state not too concerned about it (unless a political opponent is involved) but more importantly - the vast majority of citizenry does not think less of a politician or powerful person for making a packet through corrupt dealings.

I make this assertion based on the book &quot;The criminalisation of the state in Africa&quot; by Bayart et al recently recommended by none other than snappy dresser &amp; fast mind Xolela Mangcu. 

In it it claims that appreciation of the &#039;trickster&#039; is an Africa wide problem, but has a specific chapter on South Africa.

This is due to a number of reasons, which I wont expand on here now, save to say that its shocking that we have some of the best universities on the continent., that have not studied this.

Instead of studying behaviour patterns &amp; attitudes in our society they have for the last 40 years swallowed  hook line and sinker all the Western produced narratives of neo-colonialism as the explanation of all Africa&#039;s ills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aliveandlovingit! says there is corruption in developed countries as well. I don&#8217;t disagree. </p>
<p>The difference can be said is the number of incidents or perhaps their brazen nature or severity or even who commits them (even though the Royal family is gaffe prone &amp; over and under sexed they have not been involved in many corruption scandals as far as I know). Perhaps. </p>
<p>But countries like India and China also have a lot of corruption. But its not eating at their body politic as ours is.</p>
<p>But India and particularly China punishes corrupt officials very harshly &#8211; the death penalty is quite common. </p>
<p>That is the key difference. And it is multi-faceted. Not only is our state not too concerned about it (unless a political opponent is involved) but more importantly &#8211; the vast majority of citizenry does not think less of a politician or powerful person for making a packet through corrupt dealings.</p>
<p>I make this assertion based on the book &#8220;The criminalisation of the state in Africa&#8221; by Bayart et al recently recommended by none other than snappy dresser &amp; fast mind Xolela Mangcu. </p>
<p>In it it claims that appreciation of the &#8216;trickster&#8217; is an Africa wide problem, but has a specific chapter on South Africa.</p>
<p>This is due to a number of reasons, which I wont expand on here now, save to say that its shocking that we have some of the best universities on the continent., that have not studied this.</p>
<p>Instead of studying behaviour patterns &amp; attitudes in our society they have for the last 40 years swallowed  hook line and sinker all the Western produced narratives of neo-colonialism as the explanation of all Africa&#8217;s ills.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Atkins</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13518</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Atkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13518</guid>
		<description>Perhaps Messrs Mpshe and Hofmeyer could submit their full telephone records for January  to April (personal and work phones) for examination of conversations that they may have had with persons connected to Mr Zuma.

Maybe the &quot;plot&quot; shoe would be on the other foot...

As a working hypothesis, how&#039;s this:

Through some combination of threat, political persuasion and / or inducement, Mr Mpshe was &quot;persuaded&quot; to discontinue the prosecution.  Mr Hofmeyer may already have been influenced (did he know about the tapes earlier?) prior to the fact, so that he could sway Mpshe.

They were hoping for a quick &quot;in-and-out&quot; announcement, possibly without giving specific reasons, or maybe making vague references to &quot;national interest&quot;.  Then the story was leaked.  We don&#039;t know that Mo Shaik got it from the Zuma camp - he claimed to have received general sms&#039;s that were doing the rounds.  Anyway, Business Day was breaking the story (possibly from a disgruntled member of the NPA).

The outcry , and subsequent analysis (including our dear Prof), gave the NPA pause.  The shock value of the tapes was being played up, but the pressure now came from both sides.

So, our clever little Mr Hofmeyer went and did some research to find anyone saying anything nasty about abuse of process that they could use.  as had been pointed out here and elsewhere, the NPA Act and the policy gave nothing to work with.  I also wonder whether Adv Heath had a talk to Adv Hofmeyer.

Then came the announcement, and immediately the Zuma clique in the ANC started to spin the &quot;inncent&quot; line (Mr Phosa and Mr Zuma lying to the nation abpout what had happened).  The ANC knew beforehand because they were telling us (via Ms Duarte among others) that we should &quot;respect&quot; the decision - code for &quot;shut up, or we will accuse you of undermining the rule of law&quot;.

The other &quot;spin&quot; is that those who challenge the decision are merely demonstrating their &quot;hatred&quot; of Mr Zuma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Messrs Mpshe and Hofmeyer could submit their full telephone records for January  to April (personal and work phones) for examination of conversations that they may have had with persons connected to Mr Zuma.</p>
<p>Maybe the &#8220;plot&#8221; shoe would be on the other foot&#8230;</p>
<p>As a working hypothesis, how&#8217;s this:</p>
<p>Through some combination of threat, political persuasion and / or inducement, Mr Mpshe was &#8220;persuaded&#8221; to discontinue the prosecution.  Mr Hofmeyer may already have been influenced (did he know about the tapes earlier?) prior to the fact, so that he could sway Mpshe.</p>
<p>They were hoping for a quick &#8220;in-and-out&#8221; announcement, possibly without giving specific reasons, or maybe making vague references to &#8220;national interest&#8221;.  Then the story was leaked.  We don&#8217;t know that Mo Shaik got it from the Zuma camp &#8211; he claimed to have received general sms&#8217;s that were doing the rounds.  Anyway, Business Day was breaking the story (possibly from a disgruntled member of the NPA).</p>
<p>The outcry , and subsequent analysis (including our dear Prof), gave the NPA pause.  The shock value of the tapes was being played up, but the pressure now came from both sides.</p>
<p>So, our clever little Mr Hofmeyer went and did some research to find anyone saying anything nasty about abuse of process that they could use.  as had been pointed out here and elsewhere, the NPA Act and the policy gave nothing to work with.  I also wonder whether Adv Heath had a talk to Adv Hofmeyer.</p>
<p>Then came the announcement, and immediately the Zuma clique in the ANC started to spin the &#8220;inncent&#8221; line (Mr Phosa and Mr Zuma lying to the nation abpout what had happened).  The ANC knew beforehand because they were telling us (via Ms Duarte among others) that we should &#8220;respect&#8221; the decision &#8211; code for &#8220;shut up, or we will accuse you of undermining the rule of law&#8221;.</p>
<p>The other &#8220;spin&#8221; is that those who challenge the decision are merely demonstrating their &#8220;hatred&#8221; of Mr Zuma.</p>
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		<title>By: Friend</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/lawyers-and-then-we-pay-them-for-this/#comment-13517</link>
		<dc:creator>Friend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=957#comment-13517</guid>
		<description>Missed you too mousie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Missed you too mousie</p>
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