Constitutional Hill

Malema in contempt of court?

It has all been so predictable. Last week Judge Eberhart Bertelsmann handed down judgment in the North Gauteng High Court barring African National Congress Youth League president Julius Malema from using the words “shoot the boer (farmer)”. In his judgment, Judge Bertelsmann said: “The first respondent [Malema] is also barred from uttering any song of a similar nature which incites violence.”

The order would be effective until the matter is heard in the Equality Court, where it has been referred by Bertelsmann. This seems like a far more considered and astute judgment than the previous court order which purported to ban the use of the words “Kill the Boer” in the abstract. It correctly finds that only the Equality Court can give a definitive judgment on whether the chanting of these words by Malema in a certain context constitutes hate speech in contravention of section 10 of the Equality Act.

But Malema is trying to rustle up support from his constituency and to distract all of us from the credible news reports that he is a liar and a crooked tenderpreneur, so it was inevitable that Malema would do something to up the ante and to defy the court order. This he did when he chanted the “Kill the Boer” phrase in Zimbabwe.

The question that now arises is whether Malema could be convicted of contempt of court for singing the words in another country. Surely, the argument goes, our courts will usually not have jurisdiction to regulate actions taken by an individual in another country like Zimbabwe?

It seems to me the answer might be far less clear than that.

The Supreme Court of Appeal found in the case of Metlika Trading and Others v The Commsioner for the South African Revenue Service in 2004 that where a respondent is a resident of South Africa, a South African court may assume jurisdiction to grant an interdict (whether mandatory or prohibitory) against that person “no matter if the act in question is to be performed or restrained outside the courts jurisdiction”. The court also found that such an order could be enforced by contempt of court proceedings.

In that case the question was whether the court could restrain someone from taking certain actions in Mauritius and if it could do so, and that person failed to adhere to the court order, whether the person could be found guilty of contempt of court. The court found that a South African Court could order a person not to do something – even in Mauritius – and if that person then failed to obey the court order the person could then be found guilty of contempt of court.

Thus, unless I am missing something and (of course) depending of the exact wording of the order handed down by Bertelsmann, Julius Malema could have made himself guilty of contempt of court – even though he had sung the words in Zimbabwe and not in South Africa.

Whether it is worth pursuing this option and whether it would be politically astute to give Little Julie a platform from which he could paint himself as a martyr, is another question. Given the murder of Eugene Terreblanche and the unfortunate hotheaded statements made by some in the wake of that murder, I am not sure such a course of action is the correct one.

What is needed really, is for the ANC leadership to act wisely and decisively, to reign in Malema and to allow everyone to calm down. Sadly, I am not sure whether the present ANC leadership has either the wisdom or the courage to act decisively. Given the fact that everyone (inside and outside the ANC) seems scared of the kind of populism that Malema threatens to unleash, what we might get is not decisive and wise leadership but mealymouthed platitudes about “debate” and “discussion”.

This would not be surprising, given the fact that the ANC leadership has lost its moral authority over the past year or two and seems too scared or too intent on making a fast buck to act in a principled manner.

  • kenneth

    May be civil war will teach us a lesson that intolerence is bad for country,hate for ET or JUJU,i think the beggest losers will those who own more that 80% of wealth of the country which they spent so much time building, but i must agree that all of us all in all we will be losers, i mean with intolerant bipolar like john roberti do not see ant rainbow nation anytime sooner.

  • CD

    Pierre, you assume that the ANC *can* reign in Julius Malema. I hope you are right but I am not so sure that that is in fact the case; he seems to have his own independant power base.

    Kenneth, I wonder about your comments about the concentration of wealth. You are right that a civil war will redistribute that in some way or another. It will though also utterly destroy the economy. The poor will, as always, suffer the most. The only people who will benefit (if indeed anyone will) wil be the “big men” who are in political control. As an aside, what disturbs me about the targeting of the wealth in the hands of those who hold it is this: capital concentration is usually required in order to enable industry and commerce to function. Where there have been beneficiaries of existing redistribution policies, these beneficiaries appear for by far the greater part not have created significant further wealth or growth with what they have received, never mind job opportunities for the many others in this country; indeed the contrary has often been the case and we have seen the destruction of productive entities. The current service delivery riots are in many instances a very symptom of government having destroyed service delivery capacity through the implementation of race related policies in the government sector. To extend that forcibly to the private sector may have similar results in which event the current service delivery riots will pale into insignificance when the impact of that destruction is visited upon the poor. We should all be careful of what we wish for and even more, how we go about achieving it. By far the majority of people in this country are committed to a vision of equality for all (most of the really wealthy who exploited others during apartheid will not be impacted severely – most of their wealth is already beyond reach) but it is the “how” that confounds us all, as opposed to the “what” or the “why”.

  • http://www.bierpens.co.za Bierpens

    where to I get a plane ticket out of here …!!!

  • Dumisani Mkhize

    Only an idiot would think of Julius Malema as a matyr. But, as somebody once observed, this world is so full of idiots.

  • sirjay jonson

    Lets suppose a Sefrican was in another country inciting and organizing through words and actions to defeat the sitting government. Would not an individual committing such actions be considered for judicial judgment on say, treason, while absent from their home land? Is this any different, inciting words and action contrary to stated SA policy, re non racial community and nation building intent.

    Wherever Julius sings this song, it refers to SA, and it is hate speech directed towards the country and its citizens, inciting discord, violence and possibly genocide. We’re all so very curious when he will return. Feels good to sense that he is frightened. His comments to ZanuPfYl not to use violence in elections gives me the impression he is covering his bases.

    Your words: “This seems like a far more considered and astute judgment than the previous court order which purported to ban the use of the words “Kill the Boer” in the abstract.”

    I agree, and I also think that the explosive crisis recently inflicted on us is fortunately a puff ball explodidng, as folks realize the seriousness and with the exceptions of juvenile fanatics, don’t want this nonsense. Just possibly sanity will prevail. To me it feels this will be the case.

    The kak has hit the fan, and it may just be the miracle we’ve been waiting for.

  • Sine

    Interesting to note that I was dubbed irrational by Brett when I predicted that a civil war was not far away from our country.

  • Brett Nortje

    Sne, I dubbed you irrational because I think you desire not dread civil war. I think you think CW-day plus 1 there will still be Pajeros in the driveways of the ruling elite not countrywide devastation and famine.

    You did not appear to grasp there would be nothing of anything left.

    Do you not ‘get it’? The revolution eats up the revolutionaries first.

  • Brett Nortje

    A more likely outcome to contempt of court charges is Menzi Simelane refuses to even acknowledge the contempt charges and thereafter ignores the mandamus to get him off his butt to give effect to the Court’s order a la the utopia to the north of us.

    More nails in the coffin of the rule of law via the doctrine of effectiveness.

  • Chris

    Brett Nortje says:
    April 5, 2010 at 20:08 pm

    I think it will be a civil application, this time Simelane’s hands will be tied.

  • Brett Nortje

    I’ve never seen a real live contempt hearing, Chris. What form does the procedure take?

  • CD

    The real question is what all this means in the longer term. What are the odds of Julius being president of the country in ten or twenty years time? Even, more than even? Whatever you may think of him, he is politically astute and certainly has the attention of everyone. He also has the support of how many millions of marginalised impoverished black youth? How do you think this plays out over the next twenty years? Who is going to play the tune which most appeals to the ears of the youth concerned and for whom are they going to vote? Not the opposition political parties, that is for sure. Not as matters currently stand anyway. Unless Malema miscalculates and gets done in by the tri-partheid alliance itself, you may be referring to him as President Malema one day. You may not like the idea but maybe you should start getting used to it now already.

  • http://www.bierpens.co.za Bierpens

    Malema denounce violence … http://www.zimtelegraph.com/?p=6773

  • Mike Atkins

    There is the old saying that one should not wrestle with pigs. You both get muddy, and the pig likes it.

    It is clear thatr Mr Malema is deliberately inciting trouble. I agree that he is probably trying to distract us from the tender sagas, but there are two other potential motives. Amid heated emotions and turmoil, the unscrupulous tend to land up with more effective power. It seems that this was how Mr malema ascended to the leadership of the ANCYL in the first place.

    And then we have an election coming up. The ANC has real problems here, because the municipalities are ion a mess (not to mention the fact that the ANC is in a mess).

    Could the raising of the temperature be a deliberate and cynical means to distract people from the real issues, and also to distract people from possible manipulation of election results?

  • Sine

    Thanks for the clarification Brett.

    But then again, is it not better to be “eaten up” in the revolution for a better life than be “eaten up” whilst doing nothing?

    To clarify, let me quote William Wallace (Mel Gibson) in the movie called Braveheart:

    “Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you’ll live… at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin’ to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take… OUR FREEDOM!”

  • Brett Nortje

    Go take your pills, Sne!

    Do you honestly think there will be American movies on TV, or even TV?

    South Africa propped Zimbabwe up to avoid total collapse. Softened the effect of sanctions. Which of our neighbours is going to prop South Africa up, in your little fantasy?

  • Keoagile

    You said “Given the murder of Eugene Terreblanche and the unfortunate hotheaded statements made by some in the wake of that murder, I am not sure such a course of action is the correct one”. Pierre are you not again jumping the gun ?, Please enlighten me, what is the basis of your conclusion that Eugene Terreblanche was “murdered”. The last time I checked no court of law had pronounced anybody guilty of murder. One would have thought that you will take the lead in making lay people aware that the police have to finalize their investigations first, the docket be handed over to the prosecution authorities, the accused be brought before Anonymouse, after many postponements, Anonymouse refers the matter to the high court if he does not hear the matter himself. After hearing all the evidence and having ensured that the accused constitutional rights have not been violated, he makes a finding of guilty or not guilty. It is then that the know it all Prof. can say that Eugene Terreblache was murdered- this is criminal law 101. We should never undermine the judiciary by pre-empting their findings.

  • Brett Nortje

    Of course, Keoagile has a point. Given that TerreBlanche was found on his bed in a pool of blood with an iron implement on him and a knopkierie lying next to the bed it would be presumptuous to rule out death by natural causes.

  • http://www.bierpens.co.za Bierpens

    Oh … ET was not murdered … I see just killed … other wise he must have knocked his head dammm hard on something … if he did do it himself then it was suicide, but because he died he was only killed … may be in self defense …

  • Brett Nortje

    Which leaves the question: What do the SAPS write on the docket they open for investigation? And, are they allowed to mention which crime they suspect was committed?

  • abidam

    To me it seems that the present leadership has been aware that they cannot solve SA problems (their best efforts ended in disaster and the penny fell) and if they don’t do something about it they will loose all.
    With their struggle credentials still in place what better to do than to rekindle the struggle. Target the old enemy again, mobilize the youth and like Mugabe blame everyone …. then nobody will notice how the country is falling apart till it is too late and the have absolute power.

  • http://www.bierpens.co.za Bierpens

    or maybe it was an execution … then it was not murder either …

  • Keoagile

    In a kangaroo court, people are declared guilty of murder because a person was found in a pool of blood and a knobkierrie lying next to the bed. Dimwits start talking of revenge ( meaning “kill the blacks” because a certain moron was chanting “kill the boers”.As this moron belong to a certain organization, he was therefore chanting this song on behalf of all the people who happen to have been born with a darker complexion. What a twisted logic, if this can be called such.

    Our criminal justice system, maligned as it is, still requires that suspects be presumed innocent (Pierre and Zuma enlighten Brett) , be afforded fair pre- trial rights and due process before being found guilty or not guilty. Anything else is mob justice, the kind that AWB unleashed indiscriminately on innocent people of darker complexion since their unfortunate formation.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Keoagile says:
    April 5, 2010 at 22:56 pm

    “Pierre and Zuma enlighten Brett”

    It would be an easier task to knock a six inch nail into a log with a soap bubble.

    But keep trying!

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, put up or shut up: How many farmworkers are killed by farmers every year?

  • Brett Nortje

    Keoagile, the Courts are bound by the presumption of innocence under S35(3)(h).

  • CD

    Keoagile, in my view you are engaging in sophistry. Yes, the perpetrators are presumed innocent until proven guilty. But there is a subtle but important distinction between saying someone was murdered and saying someone is guilty of murder. If the killing of Terre’Blanche was unlawful and intentional, it is murder and nothing else. The facts as we know them are that the perpetrators went off, made a decision to kill the victim, gathered weapons in order to do so and then returned to give effect to their decision. Whatever their own miguided perceptions that they were acting in self defence, that is premeditated murder (plain old dolus directus) and there is *no* legal justification for it, ever. The justification of self-defence simply does not exist in these circumstances. So, we are talking about murder and it seems to me to be legitimate to say Terre’Blanche was murdered. However, a finding that a certain person or persons is guilty of that murder is a different matter indeed. But given that the gentlemen in question have allegedly confessed in full to the deed (and apparently without any coercion by anyone) it seems to me that one may fairly say that they have confessed to murder and as such, are indeed self-confessed murderers. While it behoves each of us to be aware of the key legal principles and to respect the rights of persons, such should not override plain common sense either. What is most worrying about this matter though is the reported view of the perpetrators that they were acting “in self defence”. There are a number of possible reasons for this but each one gives grounds for discomfort.

  • CD
  • Pierre De Vos

    Keoagile, quite frankly you are deeply confused. No one is disputing the fact that Terreblanche was murdered. The police is treating it as a murder. All the facts show it was a murder. End of story. Saying that is a murder just states the bloody obvious. (It’s a bit like saying the earth is round or that the sun rises in the East or that HIV causes AIDS.) However, it is for a court to decide whether the suspects now in custody for that murder is guilty of that murder and whether there might not have been some defense to justify the killing. But one should not confuse facts with the legal process. If you do that you run the risk of coming across as slightly unhinged. You then begin to pretend that what happened never happened and then we are back in a George Orwell 1984 kind of world where even obvious facts can be disputed or denied. Please do not deny that which cannot be denied. It helps no one and cast doubt on your own grip on reality. As you will see, I expressed no opinion about the guilt of the two suspects being held for Terreblanche’s murder. That is for a court to decide.

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    Julius Malema wants to follow in the footsteps of Rob McAap … his own words. This is sad for Zim was a proud nation turned into beggars and thieves. So where the cultural diversity off South Africa something to be proud about.

    Tradition Chants was used to motivate people. Tourist still pay good money to day to experience this wonderful culture. This culture is high jacked by the PAC and ANC and their youth league for power struggles and threats. Mass Rally’s turn violent easily and even on a calm rally people will comfortable destroy property with the blink off an eye.

    Malema is using old chants that was needed to boil the blood of people to stand up against the pass laws of this country. These laws was proclaimed under a different regime and has little to do with Apartheid. Why does Julius Malema need to raise the boiling point of the young masses that have an opportunity to live and work in a free democratic South Africa.

    What does he need their hate for ???

  • Maggs Naidu

    Brett Nortje says:
    April 5, 2010 at 23:53 pm

    “Maggs, put up or shut up: How many farmworkers are killed by farmers every year?”

    Hey Brett – it seems that you have not yet been enlightened.

    I remain hopeful.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs is too dishonest to admit that the violence across colour lines is one-sided.

  • Henri

    The test for contept of court [ defying a court order, like having to pay a certain amount of maintenance pendente lite in a divorce, typically] is set in Fakie vs CCII 2006[4] SA 326 SCA at 344H. The problem re Malema wilfully and mala fide ignoring the interdict against him in Zim is in the set requirement in that case that he can disprove guilt by showing a reasonable doubt as to whether his non-compliance “was wilful and mala fide.”
    And that he can easily establish with reference to the uncertainty whether the court’s prohibition operates outside its territory. In other words whether a RSA court can try a RSA citizen on a murder committed in Zim., eg.
    He can just testify that he really thought the restraint is not operative against him while in Zim, USA, China, etc.
    So it would be very unwise to institute contempt proceedings against him now for his singing in Zim.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Brett Nortje says:
    April 6, 2010 at 9:51 am

    “Maggs is too dishonest to admit that the violence across colour lines is one-sided.”

    Hey Unenlightened One!

    There’s violence associated with sheer criminality and violence associated with sheer racism.

    It would be dumb to correlate violence associated with sheer criminality with race.

    How many examples, if any, of pure race based violence perpetrated by Black people can you point out?

    For example, do you know of any instance where Black people kicked a homeless White person to death for sheer pleasure?

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    Hi Brett

    I am white … my father is a farmer and I want to point to out ….

    Violent crime across color lines is one sided … true … its a fact … but violent crime is not restricted to white area’s only … black on black violence and black on black crime stats is probably higher … fact is Malema is leading this country in the wrong direction … he should spend more time with COSATU thinking up a working solution to un employment.

    Why do we need to import so many things from China? We have a young strong Verile work force in South Africa …

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    Failing to admit …

    Maggs Naidu

    You are so short sighted … I can show you white ladies by the dozen whom was held for weekends on end for the pure pleasure of raving black men … please … please … please get with the program if you want to mud sling …

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 10:12 am

    “I can show you white ladies by the dozen whom was held for weekends on end for the pure pleasure of raving black men … please … please … please”

    Please do.

  • Sine

    @ Brett

    “Go take your pills, Sne!”

    Brett, I engaged with you at my own peril considering that the topic is not about guns wherein you would argue more coherently.

    In conclusion, it seems to me that you have no idea whatsoever about the topic that was under discussion.

    Have a great day…

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    Maggs Naidu

    I will gladly open a tag on my sight where I will systematically start posting the news clippings… Please let me know when it reach your tolerances point and I will stop. No problem. I am not about hate speech and inflammatory statements… I do this purely upon your request … do you agree to these conditions …?

  • Brett Nortje

    Bierpens, I am not denying that the vast majority of homicide victims are black, like the perpetrators. The homicide rate last year was about 38/100 000, the rate at which whites were murdered probably 2/3 of that.

    What I am saying is the rate at which whites are murdered ought to be about 2,8/100 000 (which is more or less the intimate femicide rate – again, from very poor research) because spousal murders, homicide among spouses and intimate acquaintances is the natural, predictable, explicable pattern of murder! Not the organised raids on white suburbs by black gangs!

    So, who is killing the other 35/100 000 whites, considering we constitute 10% of the population?

    Michael is looking at the wrong end of the equation. My fear is there is a low-level genocide going on here – because the bodies are not piled in churches, because our social scientists are biased, in denial, and because the practice of social science in SA in general is so unhelpful, because it serves the ruling elite this is not being properly recorded.

    Did you see FW’s thinktank turn into a hive of activity after the girl he grew up with was murdered? Any research eminating from there?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Please do!

  • Maggs Naidu

    Brett Nortje says:
    April 6, 2010 at 10:40 am

    “What I am saying is the rate at which whites are murdered ought to be about 2,8/100 000″

    Oh Heavens!

    It ought to be zero, dumbo!

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu
    “I will gladly open a tag on my sight where I will systematically start posting the news clippings… Please let me know when it reach your tolerances point and I will stop. No problem. I am not about hate speech and inflammatory statements… I do this purely upon your request … do you agree to these conditions …?”

    the question is do you agree to the conditions? … your answer … “please do” does not relate to my question … it would be more like …. “@Bierpens … I do agree to your terms and conditions.”

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Brett Nortje

    since you are so quick with your stats … could you please give us the stats on how many white people are know to make “muti” from human organs …???

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, a couple of blocks down from here a 79-year old was circumcised then raped. Her 78-year old husband was made to watch by being held in position by a wire-hanger around his neck then he was smothered in his wife’s vagina. She was strangled.

    Want to hazard a guess as to the races of victims and perpetrators? Want to tell me circumcision before rape was random, not a racial overtone, you dolt?

    The Star was the only newspaper that followed the trial. Predictably, your reality was heavily censored. The judge called the perpetrators animals.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 10:45 am

    You need neither my permission nor approval to post anything in support of that which you claim.

    Until then, I suspect the loose and wild statements cannot be supported.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Brett Nortje says:
    April 6, 2010 at 10:47 am

    Links to that article in the Star?

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    I consider my self as a responsible citizen of this country. I have less than 60 days left to influence the White female soccer supporters to visit this country, I will by no means take this decision by myself … do you agree to my terms and conditions … will you be part of the tension and international hype that this will attract in the wake of all the media publicity ET’s murder has attracted …

  • Kah

    Mr de Vos, can the court effectively deal with a matter such as this in the long term?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 10:53 am

    “I consider my self as a responsible citizen of this country. I have less than 60 days left to influence the White female soccer supporters to visit this country, I will by no means take this decision by myself … do you agree to my terms and conditions … will you be part of the tension and international hype that this will attract in the wake of all the media publicity ET’s murder has attracted …”

    It seems that you are suggesting that there is very widespread racial violence perpetrated by Blacks against Whites that is not in the public domain and that you only are privy to the details.

    And further if you post the details here then the SWC fans will stay away from our country.

    That sounds far fetched and delusional.

    If soccer fans, or any other tourists for that matter, want to know about potential threats to their safety they will check with their embassies, not read Constitutionally Speaking and rely on broad unsupported statements from uninformed contributors.

    The horrific levels of crime and associate violence is widely known – the suggestion that there exists any significant levels of Black on White racially motivated violence is at best mischievous.

    If you are able to support your claim that anything different is a reality post it by all means – you will not be held responsible for the consequential mass cancellation of visits by “White female soccer supporters” to the SWC.

    If it is true that “white ladies by the dozen whom was held for weekends on end for the pure pleasure of raving black men”, and I suspect that it is not, then you will be doing the world and South Africa a huge favour by exposing this.

    I stand by my view that you have nothing to support your loose and wild statements!

  • Gwebecimele

    A black hunter and his dog were shot by a white farmer in the Free State and we did not see Cele, Minister, Lekota nor President visisting this family and calling for calm. Why? You guessed it, a white life of a cruel racist is worth more than an ordinary black man. I am glad that Zola Majavu has offered his services to represent these two young against a judicial machinery that has a reputation of being harsh towards black people. ET’s victim is paralysed today and he is dead for enduring probably similar beatings from their respective attackers. Interestingly now, ET’s attack on his victim is conviniently forgotten instead his attackers are the villains for doing exactly what ET is capable of and more.

    He died a very sad death and no one should die in that manner. I hope his attackers(if found guilty) will be sentenced for less than 5 yrs just like him for doing exactly what he did. There is minimal difference between being paralysed and dead. The fact that the victim is a former perpetrator eliminates that difference. Throw the unfair tratment or provocation in the mix the it gets more balanced.

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele, those are strange circumstances indeed.

    Did you see the hunting permit?

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    Since you know what the steps are these people will take you then agree that if I follow news paper trails on these matters it will influence the countries views negatively … Since I do not have your confirmation I will rather seed than go ahead.

    @Gwebecimele

    No life is worth lost … If you follow my link to my blog you will see what I am on about. I even now blog in English to confirm my views on a non racial democracy, but since the entry on this forum was about Mr. Malema I decided to jump in… like Mr. Malema many people of previously disadvantage communities wish to keep the racial tension high.

    with the violent death of many older white defenseless South Africans it is difficult to do just that. Remember we were sold out and not much retention was done in the bill off rights to secure our future in the country we so love.

    It seems the ANC can only win at the elections with the white fear component to keep the black voters to ransom. Mr. Malema has yet to step forward and ask the children of this country to do their work and do it with respect the first time.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Brett

    As if the permit will change the circumstances.

    @ Bierpens

    Judging by the postings here and real racism out there, the ANC can win elections without campaigning and they dont have to peddle fear. Unfortunately whites have to do more to gain support and trust of blacks.

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Gwebecimele

    I beg for a place in this country … if I am not welcome please let me go … but if I want to leave do not file charges against me and retain me as your own personal slaves … I have done my fare share and will do more, but in fear of my life I cannot do more …

    in lee of Julius’s claim that he will kill for Zuma I had to close down my previous business, sell all my equipment and pay of my out standing bills … I cannot work in this country because I am a white male … If I do work for myself I am told I am not black enough. When I want to buy a product is better to buy Chinese because it was manufactured with pride … what more do you want from me …

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    I have filled reports with various Embassies before …

    One regarding the young British girls not using commonsense regarding the AIDS situation in South Africa with photo graphical evidence.

    The Other about human organs in traditional muti medicine. This one was with the Dutch, German and British Embassies.

    I can do you a favor and run a news paper trail and make up a file for them as well. On my American Green Card Application they wanted to know why I want to leave South Africa … I stated I fear Malema and the fact that he sings in public that he wants to kill me …

    See for your selves and give them all a call. I am sure the files will be there some where …

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele, hunting is legal. Poaching is not. Trespass is not, and is usually the initiating act in home invasions and murder.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    You digress.

    Support your claim that there have been “white ladies by the dozen whom was held for weekends on end for the pure pleasure of raving black men”.

    Or withdraw it!

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Ah – therein lies the reason for your sensationalism with untruths ”

    “On my American Green Card Application they wanted to know why I want to leave South Africa … I stated I fear Malema and the fact that he sings in public that he wants to kill me …”.

    Another Huntley!

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    I with draw my claim … there was never 4 white ladies held by a soccer team in rural natal. Three of them was never raped over a period of time and this article never appeared in the news papers. I have never been approached by the Provincial leaders of KZN not to make a big fuss about Muti Medicine made from human body parts …

    All this is ‘n pigment of my white fascist brain ..

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    I admit that black people do not misunderstand the concept of AIDS and agree that it is only a rumor that they believe they would be cured from AIDS if they have sex with a willing or unwilling virgin.

    I am so sorry if I offended any one with my interpretation of Malema’s song … It is my bad that I did not realized that Malema only first sang the song the year Madiba was about to be released from Prision. I am sorry I was not born in time to stop the 1927 pass book laws that was already in proclamation in 179.. some time …

    I am sorry I was born with a fair skin and you have more color pigmentation …. please forgive me for all my sins against the people of South Africa …

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    So now we have :

    1. That you want a US Green card and support that application with claims of racial violence.

    2. That three women were raped.

    3. There is trading in human body parts.

    Where is the support for your claim that ““white ladies by the dozen whom was held for weekends on end for the pure pleasure of raving black men”?

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Bret

    Who said they were inside the farmers land?

    @ Boepens

    You are closing businesses, want to migrate and living in fear because of Malema? If Malema die tmoro, all your problems will be solved, how simple is that.

  • Gwebecimele

    Sorry Boepens = Bierpens

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @ Maggs Naidu

    Yes you so right … I am so sorry … please accept my apology .. There is no barbed wire fence drawn up between the whites and the blacks at the magistrates court in Venters Dorp …We feel so welcome and at home in this country …

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Gwebecimele

    No worry the size stays the same … I have retracted my claim …

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    There are really terrible things happening in our country every day.

    If all right thinking South Africans band together in condemnation and pressuring our government to intensify the efforts in finding permanent solutions we will make a difference.

    Lying neither helps the conversation nor does it help to resolve the challenges we face!

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    I seeded I refuse to admit in lying …

  • CD

    Brett, I suspect that if it is correct that as a statiscal proportion whites are more susceptible to crime that it is less a function of race than of economics: the source of maximum reward is targeted. To the extent that additional features of the crimes are indicative of race hatred, these are probably for the greater part incidental to the main purpose of the attack as opposed to being the primary purpose itself. I also seem to have come across some statistics about two years ago in the collected works of a journalist (Johnny ??) which if true would indicate the opposite of what you say: that in fact as a proportion of the population whites are less and not more susceptible to crime. But of course the truth of the statistics we are talking about is another matter altogether. You know what they say about lies and statistics.

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    Jessica Ford GANG RAPE TRIAL 2009_03_02

    if you want to except my conditions I will continue … if not I will seed … but believe me the facts is not hidden from any one … some are just to blind to see … I will get 12 or more cases … How long time line do I have to work with …

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    Please let us not forget the little girls that was busted out of the sex ring in Bloemfontein last year … or does it count … sorry it was organized crime, maybe it does not count …

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 13:23 pm

    The Jessica Ford rape was horrific, no less horrific than many of the rapes that occur daily, maybe even hourly, in our country.

    Children as little as a few months old to the elderly, disabled to say the least are victims – it’s across the racial, social, economic divides.

    The race of the victims and perpetrators does not diminish the horror.

    I am still waiting for you to support your comment : “white ladies by the dozen whom was held for weekends on end for the pure pleasure of raving black men”

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    you accept my conditions?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 13:32 pm

    “you accept my conditions?”

    Of course!

  • Michael Osborne

    Brett, Maggs (unless I have missed something), appear to be running away from your question re how many farm workers are killed by the boere per annum.

    But you also seem unwilling to offer anything hard and fast re the relative white and black murder rate, per 100,000. (You say only the white victim rate is “probably 2/3rds”).

    I will wager you a small fortune that it is less than that; whites are not less likely to be violent crime victims by a small fraction. My understanding is that the differential is overwhelming.

  • Pierre De Vos
  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    I have supported my claim … tell me when to stop ….

    http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?p=1494

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 14:55 pm

    “I have supported my claim … tell me when to stop ….”

    Your claim was – “white ladies by the dozen whom was held for weekends on end for the pure pleasure of raving black men”.

    So far you have posted nothing to support that.

    Putting “white” before rape and “black” before rapist does not make a heinous crime a racial attack.

    My position stands that you tried to be sensationalist to support your US Green Card application.

    Twisting the horrible experiences of the victims of these dastardly crimes to suit your selfish narrow purposes is approaching the sickness of the crimes itself.

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    Ok I will not stop yet … I will keep adding links if that is ok with you …

    US Green Card … was for my fear for Malema … and his song … that he and the masses intend to kill me … you tell me I am not allowed to be afraid but yet I have to respect the thousands of other that have suffered under crime …

    Please explain …

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    please do not add bits and pieces of slander to the minds of others …

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    This is support enough for my US Green Card Application ….

    http://allafrica.com/stories/201004060749.html

    This man has more insight in his left pinkie than you have in your whole body …

  • Maggs Naidu

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 16:37 pm

    “US Green Card … was for my fear for Malema … and his song … that he and the masses intend to kill me … you tell me I am not allowed to be afraid but yet I have to respect the thousands of other that have suffered under crime …”

    It seems that you are deliberately convoluting things to achieve some twisted agenda.

    It’s common cause that we have abnormally high levels of crime in general and violent crime in particular.

    There’s Malema singing a song from the ANC struggle period.

    There’s Vavi and Malema who said they would kill for Zuma.

    There’s President Zuma who sings Umshini wami.

    None of this helps to bring down the levels of violence or tempers those who are likely to commit violence, if anything it has the potential to lower the criminals inhibitions.

    However, the notion that Black people target White people in race based crime as you said earlier, is yet to be established by you (or anyone else who holds that view).

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Maggs Naidu

    You are stumbling … I have never said that black on white crime is more or for that matter more relevant than black on black crime … I have given you more than enough to think about on how black men uses white woman for weekends on end to please them selves … your aim is to stereo type white people and their fears … you have lost this round and are stereo typical of the new South Africa not addressing the problems at hand … Malema is chanting to entice hate speech … he needs the hate of the black people … FOR WHAT ??? land restitution … Zim style!!!

  • Chris

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 14:55 pm

    I had a look at the http://bierpens.co.za/ website.

    Being a proud Afrikaner I just want to appeal to you to do something about the standard of Afrikaans used in the website. We know woodwork is not Julius’ strong point, but I can’t imagine that the Bierpens webmaster could have passed Afrikaans at all.

    Nee man, do something about that spelling!

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    die spelling bly … as jy nie daar mee kan saam leef nie is dit jou probleem … kan my min skeel … Dik, Dikvellig en moontlik Disleksies … maar neem nie my reg op vryheid tot spraak weg nie … sorry tjom … vele voor jou het al probeer … daar sal nog baie na jou wees … ek blog omdat ek wil … gaan lees maar ek het baie inskrywings daaroor gemaak …

  • Sine

    @ Maggs

    Gee bro! Are you still arguing with Bierpens!? Now I am disappointed in you…

  • Chris

    Bierpens says:
    April 6, 2010 at 18:38 pm

    The problem is this Bierpens, as long as your website looks like that nobody will take you seriously.

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    @Chris

    We will all be in serious trouble if anybody pays any attention to me … Asseblieftog los die grappe vir later …

  • Pingback: Die Plaas | Disleksikaans – Pensie nooit ernstig … Eish

  • Johan

    Bierpens, ek kan nie besluit of jy, Steve Hofmeyr of ET die afrikaners se grootste verleentheid is nie.

    Om hits vir jou blog te jaag deur jou naam gat te maak is net nie die moeite werd nie.

    Strekte.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Sine says:
    April 6, 2010 at 18:40 pm

    “Gee bro! Are you still arguing with Bierpens!? Now I am disappointed in you…”

    Ouch!

    Deservedly so.

    Oh well, I take comfort in knowing that those who claim racist Black on White violence are hot air!

  • http://bierpens.co.za/bier/?cat=87 Bierpens

    hahahaha … jy is snaaks Johan … wonder of jy my stats pages dop hou … weg jaag … hoe lekker lag ek nou … any way sien jou daar oppie plaas as jy nie meer jou lus om te lag kan weer hou nie.

  • Johan

    Ek was daar om self te kyk wat jy so blatant adverteer. Hoekom kom die woord PATETIES by my op?

  • Brett Nortje

    Michael, Antony Altbeker raised the 2/3 white homicide rate issue in 2006, in comments to the media bout the 2005 crime statistics, if memory serves. I would love to get current statistics from him as well as his views on the Huntley case. Anyone know him?

    Back in 2005 the homicide rate was in the mid 50s/100 000. Last year it fell to 38/100 000, halved from 1994, showing the inverse relationship between rates of gunownership and homicide rates. More than a million black South Africans got licensed handguns after 1994.

    I wish I had better data on the comparative rate of homicide but I do not like stating opinions and conclusions as fact.

  • Brett Nortje

    Pierre, although flawed in several respects it is a very interesting paper:
    o The authors are upfront about their research bias
    o Their homicide data are 10 years old
    o It is centred around Cape Town and they somewhat force the facts to fit their argument particularly in distinguishing between homicide rates in white and black areas. It would have been really helpful if they could give a homicide breakdown in areas where there had been a demographic tilt.
    o Silber and Geffen decry the paucity of accurate meaningful usable homicide statistics

    Hope the SJC concept takes off.

  • Pierre De Vos

    The Independent Democrats has called for a national dialogue on the promotion of racial tolerance and national unity in the wake of the killing of right-wing leader Eugene Terre Blanche. See http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article389242.ece/ID-calls-for—dialogue-on-racial-tolerance. Good idea, but I suspect it will not work unless the debate focuses on the OBLIGATIONS we all have in this. Otherwise it will degenerate into a “them” and “us” kind of debate in which no one will take responsibility and no one will accept that they have to do things and accept things to create a more toleratnt world.