When Thabo Mbeki was still President of the ANC it was one of my great pleasures (and ,I thought, duties) to read the letter from the President every Friday afternoon on ANC Today. Not that I always agreed with then President Mbeki or always found his arguments convincing or even plausible – Mbeki had a tendency to grab onto a very real issue (racism, poverty, respect for each other) and then misuse the issue to advance his own political agenda. Who can forget his use of racism in his vicious attack on the “fishers of corrupt men” when he wanted to push back against the very real questions of corruption in the arms deal?
But the letter often made for interesting and even entertaining reading and if it did not, it still was one of the few places where one could find out what the hell this very strange, lonely, stoic and self-important man was thinking. I suspect it often revealed more about Mbeki’s phsycology than he might have known.
So I was rather nostalgic when I read the letter Mbeki sent to Jacob Zuma earlier this week. There was the National Democratic Revolution (NDR), the references to past heroes, the thinly disguised hurt pride – all the great themes of the Mbeki letters over the years. And there again was the use of a very real issue (“the noxious phenomenon of the personality cult”), deployed to attack a fellow comrade (in the most indirect of ways, of course).
It therefore came as a surprise to me that anybody within our revolutionary democratic movement could so much as suggest, and therefore insult somebody like Terror Lekota that he could act as he has, whether rightly or wrongly, driven by attachment to a personal cult!
In this context, given that I have worked longer with you than I have worked with Terror, I would be interested to know your view of any instance in our movement during which it fell victim to the noxious phenomenon of the personality cult, as a result of which it ceased to think, content to act in the manner of the “anointed personality”, such as the late Kim Il-Sung determined to the people of North Korea!
Ouch! Can it be that Mbeki is subtly saying that Mr Zuma is in danger of becoming a cruel dictator, like Kim Il-Sung? Perhaps, because he continues:
The beginning and the end of this particular discourse is that both of us have grown up in a political atmosphere that we fully respected and honoured our leaders, heroes and heroines without reservation.
However, for me personally, at no point did this translate into “hero worship” and therefore the progression to the phenomenon of the “cult of personality”. I know this as a matter of fact that all the heroes and heroines I have mentioned would have opposed the emergence of such a cult with every fibre in their revolutionary bones!
For this reason I find it strange in the extreme that today cadres of our movement attach the label of a “cult of personality” to me, and indeed publicly declare a determination “to kill” to defend your own cause, the personal interests of “the personality”, Jacob Zuma!
Some would of course argue that Mbeki is rather disingenuous here. He says in the ANC leaders are “respected and honoured without reservation” but that “for him personally” this never translated in hero worship. Some of us who lived through the height of the Mbeki years might wonder a bit about this statement as some of Mbeki’s followers sure gave a good impression of hero worshipping their leader .
I am also not so sure I understand the difference between respecting and honouring the leaders of your party “without reservation” on the one hand, and hero worship on the other. It seems to me the former will inevitably lead to the latter if not checked by an dollop of skepticism. I for one will never respect and honour any leader without reservation because I think in a constitutional democracy leaders are the servants of the people and should thus be subjected to serious scrutiny, criticism and – where they do really evil things like confuse people about the link between HIV and Aids – even vilified and ridiculed.
Maybe this is where the ANC as a movement might have gone wrong. Instead of the vigorous debate and arguments and the challenging of leaders who did or say things that were stupid or wrong that was part of the UDF, the party encounraged this kind of blind discipline and loyalty to the Leader. While Mbeki never encouraged the same cult of personality that Zuma and his supporters have, this notion that leaders are somehow above criticism (at least in public) probably made it so much easier for the Malema’s of the world to get to statements about how they would kill for Zuma.
In this regard (as Mbeki might have said) I find the letter rather sad because it does not show a hell of a lot of self-knowledge on the part of our ex-President. Has he learnt nothing about himself and his own limitations over the past year? He clearly never spent time getting in touch with his own contradictions and seems so angry, yet so controlled.
There is not one jot of self-reflection in the letter. Nor is there any sense that he might have done anything differently. How can that be? Surely this is not normal? Any normal person (and I exclude Kim il-Sung here) will at least sometimes have doubts and regrets about hhow they have acted. Yet Mbeki can write without apparent irony that:
There is absolutely nothing I have done through this half-a-century of struggle of which I am ashamed. Above all, I know of nothing I have done which, to my knowledge, constitutes a betrayal of the interests of the masses of our people and their confidence in the ANC.
That sounds a bit scary to me. Nothing, comrade Mbeki? Not even instigating the plot rumours against Ramaphosa, Sexwale and Phosa? Not even when you confused people about HIV and AIDS? Not when you decided to stand for a third term thereby allowing a Zuma victory at Polokwane? Such a breathtaking lack of self-criticism is indeed sad. But it is also very, very scary. Cult of personality or not, leaders who are not self-critical do not – in the long run – turn out to be great democrats.
But hell, maybe I am just a misguided democrat who does not think one man or one party is more important than our democracy.
Prof your article is on point. Having read his letter I was baffled as to what he takes the public for. This guy is simply insulting our intelligence. How can Mbeki of all people, make reference about the ‘persecution of Winnie Mandela, but just look at the manner she was treated by him. This was the same person, who REFUSED, publicly, to shake her hands.
But what really got me boiling is his statement that he personally has been, ‘privileged to interact with such varied titans of our struggle’ such as…..ROBERT MUGABE, who is/are, according to him, the ‘…true heroines and heroes of our struggle.’ This guy is sick and racist.
Pierre,
You are wrong once more. There is a lot of self reflection in that letter.
I quote:-
“For many years I have refused to stoop to a public debate driven by these fabrications, which would demean and destroy the dignity of the ANC, its leadership and me personally.
I must admit that this posture might have produced results we never intended, specifically as it might have suggested that we could not contest the lies that have been told. ”
He is admitting that he might not have communicated his positions well enough as a President. And because he did not contest, the lies persisted and that painted his as at fault, which may not have been the case. Any critic of Mbeki has raised this as his biggest flaw. Where do you think the ‘aloof’ label roots from?
The problem with many of you is that you want Mbeki to abandon his beliefs and agree with you. He will never do that no matter how many letters he writes.
Maybe this is what really piss’d you off:-
“I know that now there are some in our country and elsewhere in the world who appear on television programmes or contribute newspaper opinion columns as “experts” or “analysts”, simply on the basis of their readiness to abandon all ethical considerations and self-respect, to propagate entirely fabricated and negative notions about what our national democratic revolution means to our country and people. ”
Mqo // Oct 31, 2008 at 10:27 am
A few months ago, Mbeki and Winnie Mandela were on TV walking hand in hand, charting. Get updated, please.
At some point in time you people really have to take off your ‘hate Mbeki’ blinds.
Mbeki is a very interesting character. Especially if your a psychologist.
He is a prime example of how delusional humans can be about themselves and the world around them. He truely believes that he has done nothing wrong!
But then he has to. He is a sensitive guy at heart. If he let himself ponder and realise what he has done and how many deaths he has caused it would probably drive him crazy.
I would add that anybody that seriously talks about ‘our national democratic revolution’ is a country that’s a democracy is scary.
His use of ‘our masses of people’ is also in the context of who is using it, instructive me thinks.
They are masses. Not individuals. There are many many of them. Waiting for the leaders to show them the way. Yeah right. Stop insulting the public’s intelligence.
When I read that grandiose, pompous letter of Mbeki, I think, Good riddance to bad rubbish. Please, can this man finally, finally fuck off and leave us alone. We’ve had enough of his drivel.
Pierre, you continue and say,
“Not even instigating the plot rumours against Ramaphosa, Sexwale and Phosa?”
Can you categorically and in light of the events of the past few weeks and, in knowledge, of the proponents of these events, say that the late Steve Tshwete was wrong and was smoking ‘zol’?
Please start thinking, you just wrote this post without much of thought.
Wessel & Herman,
You know, the comments that some white people leave, threaten to turn me into a racist sometimes. Fuck me sideways, you people are pure racists
I love you too Khosi x
Here I have to agree with Khosi – “…Can you categorically and in light of the events of the past few weeks and, in knowledge, of the proponents of these events, say that the late Steve Tshwete was wrong and was smoking ‘zol’?”
But the inclusion of Mugabe as hero of our struggle… he was at one stage, then… sadly lost the plot. I think that qualifies him to be left out of the list, just as a matter of courtesy to the people of Zimbabwe. … Until at least he makes an effort to redeem himself. It is always difficult to write off historical figures while they are alive, because they may yet have a change of heart and do something really spectacular to regain the statesmanlike position they once had. I am not holding my breath for Mugabe, I live in hope for his sake.
As for the letter. Unfortunately, in true Mbeki-esque style, it rambles (I become bored), and it reveals more about his need to document legacy than his ability to address the issues. I have always believed that he, since his youth, has had a profound sense of his place in history (selfishly at times) than be concerned about the movement itself. That makes him an interesting character, in that nothing is left to chance. Its almost as if he believes that future generations will be writing about him, and that he needs to leave a long paper trail for them to research. Is that good or bad – I don’t really know. Perhaps it is one way of booking the ANCs place in history for future generation, without the risk of revisionists falsifying its achievements. Interesting person nevertheless.
Khosi, I do not understand your point on Sexwale etc. Are you suggesting that because Sexwale and others wanted to oust Mbeki at Polokwane and later through NEC decisions they are guilty of a coup plot? Surely even you cannot conflate the party and the state like that with a straight face. There was no criminal plot to unconstitutionally oust a sitting President as Mbeki and his MInisters conceded after the damage was done. To insist there was is to conflate political manouvres in a political party with the Constitutional structures of the state – very, very, very scary stuff.
Khosi, whats so different from what Mqo and I said? You did not call him a racist did you? Weird weird.
Prof De Vos and Mqo
I must state that Mr Thabo Mbeki and President Zuma had been personally profoundly affected by their being removed from their positions in government.
Mbeki in fact sought a third term as the President of the country. You would remember when he asserted that the issue of a limited tenure for a president is not an epitome of democracy and cited Britain as a country which has no limits for the Prime Minister.
Many in the ANC were not happy with serving for more than two two terms. I have tremendous respect for Thabo and in fact is one of my role models. I regards him as a erstwhile President not inimical to robust discourse. His limitations is that he was unconsciously became separate from and above his own organisation. He surrounded himself with comrades that pandered to his whims.
He has undermined the independence and autonomy of the NPA to the extent of suspending Pikoli for refusing to retract or squash the arrest warrant for Jack Selebi to whom he was so close. He has his own unigue thoughts on HIV & AIDS. I do not think we must castigate him for holding views opposed to the generally accepted viewpoint. The hallmark of intellectuality is the acceptance and tolerance of diversity of thought.
What clearly lurks in the letter is a deep sense of sadness at being shoven unceremoniusly from the “throne” which he ws enjoying the legance of office. it is naturally paiful and understandable. We are the perfect mirror of his personality. It is ussually noy easy to observe your innate limitations. You can olne be ware of these at the instance of constructive criticism from external sources. Some of the natural human imperfections may seep into the letter advanced to Zuma. Coverse to uttered or written words, these two leaders are upset at each other for recent unresolved disatisfactions. Mbeki sought to annoint a sucessor but dismally failed. He despised a possible presidency of Zuma.
The rank and file in the ANC, a significant proportion of which are inhabitants of the vast rural hinderland, where I also come. We need a leader rooted in masses who does not intelletualise our social degradation but lives amongst us and genuinely fathoms our stark reality. Zuma is a perfect epotime of such a personality. He is humble, accessible and deeply understands the trials and tribulations of the poor downthrodden masses.
The realisation of the possible ascendancy of Zuma germinated the selective targeting of same on the investigation of corruption and related charges. This investigations lapsed into a feat of abuse of the NPA, with Ngzuka being rewarded with the appointment of his spouse as a Deputy President for sucessfully casting indellible aspersions on the person of Mr Zuma. The intention, initially was to dent his character in a ploy to wrestle support of the membership from Zuma and encrust an adverse opinion shell around his character and morality.
I am convinced that even the Rape case was a consequence of a plotted Case by senior NIA agents. The minister of intelligence was receiving calls and providing support and advise. Admittedly collateral aspects of the encouter well reprehensible. An apology was unreservedly proferred and duly accepted by the nation(not in its entirety).
I know too well that Thabo Mbeki is well-lettered and had interacted with our ideological writing on the doctrine of cricism and self-critism. The letter which he authored was precipitated by the repeated call that he must campaign for the organisation and that he must condemn those persons who are mobilising dissidence in his name.
He refuses to do that and requests the ANC leadership to do so on his own. He does that with eloquence of high artistry at which a marvel. I personally will miss his poetrical speech making.
The refusal is precipitated by what he seemingly is grand standing as no request was made that he must campaign for the ANC. It was highly unlikely for him to agree because of the manner he was removed and the annoying attacks he experiences from progressive social forces, including some members of the ANC.
The ANC must acknowledge that Mbeki is anguished and must be left some space to lick the wounds. He learn a great lesson that no individual is above the collective. I do not enjoy to see one of our own treated to adverse epithets even in the throes of a severe political punishment.
The issue of loyalty to leaders. Prof. De Vos, The ANC permits unremmiting polemical discourse and frank, open and constructive criticism. This is done within perimeters of vast organisational platforms. Upon deciding on a specific position, all are required to advance, defend and abide by the ultimate decision. It is the discipline which has characterised the ANC for a very long time of its existence.
I think that the formation of Lekota has the propensity to herald a new political trajectory of an opposition that will fiercely contest our traditional social base. The antics currently employed may however dissuade fragile potential voters to cast their vote. Paradoxically, this may reinforce the agenda for transformation if the cacaphonous pronoucements of Lekota are anything to go by and strengthen the ANC. The ANC leadership has descended to the ground to do political work. No energies spurred. The imminent elections will be interesting indeed.
Democracy at work!
Apology for typographical errors, I could edit as I was hurrying for some work!
Those of us that have followed Mbeki through the years are not at all surprised. This is classic Mbeki at work. Unrepentant and so convinced and wrapped up in his view that he is verily unable to even conider that he may have weaknesses. I can accept that he is not ashamed of anything that he has done because not many South Africans expect this of him anyway. What we expect is some critical self reflection, especially on the big issues like AIDS, Zimbabwe and the Selebi affair. Any good leader should be able to at least consider or admit that there are certain things that they could have done better as leader. Mbeki is not even prepared to do this. Instead, he ascribes all decisions to the collective and says he is not ashamed of anything that he has done. That is shirking responsibility beacuse a leader plays a very big part in any policy adoption and implementation.
To his credit, Mbeki is at least a thinker and an articulate writer, despite his obvious stubbornness. The current leadership of the ANC has shown itself to lack depth in this regard and to be downright dishonest very early on in its tenure. They do no deserve my vote and will definitely not be getting it.
So Gwede and Zuma lied to us about Mbeki (and his letter).
So what else are they lying about?
• The Mbeki recall?
• The persecution of Zuma?
• The economic policy not changing?
• The ineffectiveness of the Scorpions?
Et al, especially Wessel & Mqo
The said letter was not meant for public consumption and it cannot be interpreted in that context. Therefor any argument that paints Mbeki as disrespectful to the intelligence of the wider public is nullified.
Pierre De Vos // Oct 31, 2008 at 12:04 pm
“Surely even you cannot conflate the party and the state like that with a straight face. ”
Is there any legally democratic other way to control the state other than controlling the ANC, in this country? No there is not. In the absence of such, what other way is humanly possible?
Look I am not saying that there was a plot, I am saying that the probability of such cannot be dis-proven.
Also, anybody who says that Mbeki has not owned up to the mistakes of his administration, please read his resignation speech, last letter to his cabinet and, the last 3 State of the Nation addresses.
No one here has disputed the content of that letter. All that has happened is that the racist and the so-called liberal democrats have sought to play the man and not his words.
Point one finger and three will be pointed back at you!!!!
khosi: No one here has disputed the content of that letter. the contents being?
How many of you (black bloggers) like whites?
lindelani maseko // Oct 31, 2008 at 1:46 pm
My current girlfriend is white. But sometimes I want to leave her just because of racist nature of many white people.
But she is a fine young lass and she make me forget the like of Wessel, Lategan and Mqo when the lights go out and we all look black.
The answer to your question is: a few white imbeciles and their henchmen should be ignored, its hard but lets try.
Pompous and arrogant to the last. He has the deaths of many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of his ordinary innocent citizens on his hands. Good riddance.
Dumisani – good point! This new Zuma crew is so far not excelling in the area of integrity are they…?
Khosi – you are an impressive one man Mbeki cult of personality worshipper. Can you see that the man made any mistakes at all, or is that something only white racists could possible see?
Peter // Oct 31, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Well in a way he may make mistakes. Many times Mbeki has been given three choices 1.) Bad 2.) Worse 3.) Do nothing till it gets worse. He has consistently taken the first choice. Can you really blame him?
@ Khosi I will really can back to you ASAP, but for now please explain his statement here under;
“They never did anything, nor did we act in any way as we grew up in the liberation movement, which would result in our movement being enslaved in the cult of the individual.”
But aren’t the same leaders (Sam Nujoma and Robert Mugabe ) actually promote such. Whether you support Mugabe or not you of all people should agree that he is not Zimbabwe. If so then why doesn’t he GO! For this statement further illustrates his distorted and detachment from actual facts and events, what the so-called analysts he attacks referred to as his ‘tower-top down authoriatism’. It shows his true character. Proud, arrogate and a bit insane. Something that I have noted in your arguments Khosi.
“For many years I have refused to stoop to a public debate driven by these fabrications, which would demean and destroy the dignity of the ANC, its leadership and me personally.”
Huh?! How many weekly articles were subjected to every Friday, were if you REALLY used to read them would realize that he constantly debated these public issues (rape, racism…) then he goes on to tell us that he refused to stoop to a public debate?!
“…the rejection of the phenomenon of the emergence of a black compradore bourgeosie which, in the context of BBBEE, is ready to front both for the domestic white and international capitalists;”
Now this is also directed at the Prof. Similar to his argument that Lewis J comments on competency of the judiciary, wouldn’t he say that a racist connotation is implied here. The reference of the ‘domestic white’ could be construed as a racist remark and in this instance the perverted racist mind of the, (hear this Khosi) FORMER, President. Its because of TM et al Arican leaders that we are mocked and our country Zimbabwe is defined as ZeroIntelligenceMainlyBecauseAllBloodyWhitesEmigrated.
khosi – you are no doubt hinting at his approach to HIV/AIDS. Here he applied 4.) Actively sow confusion & ignorance and thus make it even worse.
@ Ishmael Malale
Correct yourself chief. There are very few instances were TM ever could accept or tolarent ‘diversity of thought.’
khosi // Oct 31, 2008 at 11:25 am
A few months ago, Mbeki and Winnie Mandela were on TV walking hand in hand, charting. Get updated, please.
_______________________________________
That was only when he was about to leave office and his political career was coming to an end. I AM UPDATED!
@ Khosi
I don’t hate Mbeki I DISAGREE with him
For me, as someone who is not as politically astute as the majority of the bloggers here, the thing I most enjoyed about TM was his consistency. Mbeki never changed his stance on anything – whether his HIV/AIDS views, his views on Zimbabwe etc. I may not have agreed (and I’m being polite here) with many of his policies, but at least there was an element of security in his unwavering consistency.
Zuma, on the other hand, changes policies or view-points faster than most of us change underwear. His stances and viewpoints seem to be guided by the company he is in at any given time. Furthermore, his behaviour frequently contradicts his words and that is of far more concern to me than Mbeki’s sometimes misguided, but unwavering standpoints.
It is absurd that white people cant dissagree with black people without being pointed out as racists. The fact that black people construe every remark/statement/argument by a white person to be racist is very worrying to say the least. Being black and wrong doesnt make you stupid or inferior, it makes you human. The same goes for being white and wrong. Having your mistakes and flaws pointed out is something people have always done and will always do. If the day comes when black people believe that their mistakes should not be pointed out and critized I am afraid to say that we have a dilemma on our hands. And if a racist attributes a mistake made by a black person to his color he is an idiot. On the other hand those white people who validly critisize the black person should be able to do so without being labeled as racists.
Khosi – “My current girlfriend is white.” – Does Mrs Mbeki know about the white girl friend?
@ Samatha
Can you say that is the type of leadership a country needs. One that is consistant and unwavering even if what he is doing is wrong. Just look take a look at the Bush administration.
I would rather have a leader who adopts a policy, but when he realises s/he is wrong changes and adopts another policy. Consistancy on wrong policy or principles is nothing to be enjoyed.
Mqo,
I agree with you. I am not saying that is necessarily right, but we seem to have two extremes here. One who is unwavering and refuses to change despite obvious evidence to the contrary, and one who can almost be accused of political whoremongering by consistently adapting his stance to suit his audience.
The problem with both is that, as so many have discussed here, the personality of the leader becomes overriding and they quickly forget that they are there to serve the country and not their own political beliefs and aspirations.
President Mothlanthe on the other hand, appears to be a man who is somewhere in the middle of the two extremes and were I to be assured that someone like him was going to assume the reins of leadership in the upcoming elections, even I might be persuaded to vote for the ANC.
Mqo // Oct 31, 2008 at 2:36 pm
The problem with Zimbabweans is that you sometimes want our ANC to end up like ZanuPF. And you think because we are helping you clean up you own mess we are also complicit to that mess. We are not
Thabo Mbeki will forever be referrered to as President Thabo Mbeki. Just as Madiba is still referred to a President Nelson Mandela. Whether you add ‘FORMER’ is neither here nor there. ‘President’ is a lifetime title. I suppose you come from a country that does the experience of a president stepping down, so I will forgive you.
Letters From The President were not a debating tool. The then President of the ANC used these letters to communicate the position of leadership on various social issues. These letters had nothing to do with debating with the DA or even Mqo, they were an articulation of the leaderships standpoint on current issues. Maybe because he also used these letters to warn us of racist white men and women and their henchmen, you think he was debating. I can tell you now, he was not.
Anonymouse // Oct 31, 2008 at 3:24 pm
They are BFF
Pierre, you write:
“Benatar explicitly made the argument that AA was wrong on ethical grounds, period.”
I am not sure how we can have a sensible discussion if you so badly oversimplify the positions of those with whom you disagree.
Benatar expressly distinguishes between “milder and stronger” AA. He makes crystal clear that he agrees with AA in some forms Then, in the crucial sentence, he says: “The more weight an affirmative action policy attaches to ‘race’ the less easily it can be justified.”
[See his article on the Cape Times site.]
I cannot see why you refuse to engage with this somewhat nuanced claim.
[I wager R1000 Benatar would reject position you attribute to him.]
v
Mqo // Oct 31, 2008 at 2:36 pm
The problem with Zimbabweans is that you sometimes want our ANC to end up like ZanuPF. And you think because we are helping you clean up you own mess we are also complicit to that mess. We are not
Thabo Mbeki will forever be referrered to as President Thabo Mbeki. Just as Madiba is still referred to a President Nelson Mandela. Whether you add ‘FORMER’ is neither here nor there. ‘President’ is a lifetime title. I suppose you come from a country that does the experience of a president stepping down, so I will forgive you.
Letters From The President were not a debating tool. The then President of the ANC used these letters to communicate the position of leadership on various social issues. These letters had nothing to do with debating with the DA or even Mqo, they were an articulation of the leaderships standpoint on current issues. Maybe because he also used these letters to warn us of racist white men and women and their henchmen, you think he was debating. I can tell you now, he was not.
Anonymouse // Oct 31, 2008 at 3:24 pm
They are BFF. hahaha
Mqo // Oct 31, 2008 at 2:36 pm
I thought that PRESIDENT Thabo Mbeki was a dictator who stifled debate. How did he manage to do that if he was busy debating using ‘Letter From the President’?
Samantha
I am with you on the Zuma issue. I do not know how good it is to have a president who is the former head of intelligence for a clandestine organisation which had been infiltrated on numerous levels. The kind of underhanded skills and paranoia necessary to run that operation is the opposite of what we need for a president. Transparency comes to mind, notice how everything must be handled “inside” the ANC. And to understand Mqo, you have to understand that he is upset with Mbeki about Zim, since he is from there.
With an inconsistent leadership (and I do not mean an inflexible one), you breed insecurity and that is what Zuma’s inclusive style has given us. Let me illustrate why we are engulfed by turmoil and insecurity wrought by the Zuma camp:
1. The one day he is gay bashing, the next he is applauding their struggle contribution.
2. He doesn’t want bail for rapists, yet he had to endure a rape trial?
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2304241,00.html
3. He says we aren’t going left and believes in democracy, but then
a. Right before the Alliance Economic summit Zuma, Blade and Vavi fly together to celebrate with the Equatorial Guinea dictatorship. And after the summit flies to the US with Phosa et al, preaching no change. Right person for the right environment? What’s that about?
b. The alliance economic summit isn’t going left, but the press conference was mostly managed by the SACP and most importantly they were all smiles! Go and read how vehemently they said we need to go left before that day to understand what that smile means.
c. They say policies won’t change, but create a committee (born of the alliance) to evaluate macro-economic policy. (You FIRST create a committee to evaluate policies THEN decide we won’t change policies, not the other way around.)
d. Manuel says we aren’t going left, a few days later he is warning that we shouldn’t go left after the elections (huh, I thought we weren’t). Why does he now think it is a problem at all? (A certain committee perhaps?)
4. The one day the judiciary are counter revolutionaries the next they are just wonderful (when it goes Zuma’s way). How can the judiciary be branded based on ONE PERSON’s case?
5. One day they tells us the scorpions will make way for a better unit, the next Mantashe admits! that it was about the scorpions targeting their people. The most plausible one has to be that they were infiltrated by “apartheid forces”.
Blind trust in a collective leadership which has MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder), is not my cup of tea.
I have finally read the Mbeki letter. It is hard to download it through dial-up on a part-line! Thanks to one of his heroes of the struggle!
I am just happy that the SA political landscape is a huge improvement on what we see across Africa. I just pray that the discussions, debates, disagreements etc. will one day generate more ideas than air!
Z Zuma is very transparent compared to Mbeki don’t don’t you think?
And Z don’t you think we need to go a bit more left?
Is that that not the human and most rational thing to do in the most unequal country in the world?
The nationalists policies on agriculture telecommunications, basic food stuffs, were left of the current ANC’s policies and were better off for it.
I have to say the anti Zuma sentiments you here from many white people is a bit rich.
The very fact that we are having a very lively and plural debate on this site is part of the opening up of public discourse that Zuma made possible by daring to stand up against the Mbeki machine.
As little as two and half years ago people were not having these dabates. Zuma ran the Mbeki gauntlet when it was very unfashionable to do so.
So many whities were silent during the Mbeki years. Thousands of Aids deaths? Whatever.
Inequality rising, whatever.
Zuma comes around and creates the space for public discourse (especially for whites) and whites by and large, suddenly awake form their polical slumber of 12 years, find their voice and gush: We are scared of the barbarian Zuma!
Wakey wakey you middleclass sleepwalkers – we just lived through a nightmare called Thabo Mbeki thats left thousands dead, squandered the non racial capital Mandela built painstakenly and that has weakened the ability of to deliver a better life for all.
Zuma will have to be a very very bad ass dickhead to be worse than Thabo.
Z
I dispute that allegation. It’s not only his stance in Zim that i disagree with. Just look at the DRC, Ivory Coast, Nepad, Dafur etc…. Only now can you see how he never REALLY solved the problem in that country. One further has to look at Ivory Coast, Nepad, Darfur etc to see that he never actually achieved much!
All I ask Z that you rise above the Lindelani’s, Khosi’s and the majority of (black )South Africans who simply believe that if one person is saw, that must be the reason that he believes saw. An example is if a white person critics AA, he MUST be a racist. Mqo disagrees with Mbeki because he is angry at his policies on Zimbabwe. Lets not be quick to jump into conclusion neither should we explain other peoples reasoning for them. Z, I post on this blog, I feel offered when YOU z can simply make statements (read: “And to understand Mqo, you have to understand that he is upset with Mbeki about Zim, since he is from there.”). All I did was post MY OPINION/VIEW. Argue with that. Go and sleep Z,zzzzz.
Wessel,
I rest my case. You’re a shameless racist.
Mbeki is meant to be a mediating in Zimbabwe, but in this letter he makes reference to one of the parties (Robert Mugabe) as a ‘hero’. Who can tell me that he has been mediating in with good intention of been fair to both sides.
But fear not z, i am not angry.
Just my 2cents:
Mqo, Mbeki is a mediator and not an arbitrator, and the fundamental difference between them is that an arbitrator is required to be “impartial” but that is not an inherent requirement for a mediator.
An arbitrator makes final order but a mediator merely “guides the process” until both parties reach a settlement. That is the main reason we are where we are today with Zim, there’s nothing that Mbeki can do in order to “force” the parties to agree beyond what the MDC is able to do. Now these are the dumbos we should’ve been more robust in their approach, use their newly found “political clout” to force Mugabe to work and walk together for a better Zim.
“Anonymouse // Oct 31, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Khosi – “My current girlfriend is white.” – Does Mrs Mbeki know about the white girl friend?”
Mouse, you took hte post right out of my mouth! hahahah
Mqo, I agree that including people like Mugabe somewhat took the edge off his point, a textbook case of the cult of personality I would have thought.
And Khosi/TM, yes it’s true, the letter was meant to be a private letter, until you sent it to Shilowa and Terror that is!
I actually find him to be “ruling from beyond the grave”. What was with that list of tasks at the end that he expects JZ to attend to?
But the Soapie continues. Anyone going to the Convention?
“A normal person … will at least sometimes have doubts and regrets about how they have acted.”
It is very difficult to say exactly what constitutes “normal” human behaviour. In Mbeki’s case, one has to consider his upbringing. He did not come from a particularly happy home, never got close to his father, and then – at the tender age of 14 – got sucked into, and indoctrinated by, the African National Congress. The rest is history.
All of which does not mean that Mbeki never had doubts or regrets; all he said in his letter that he was “not ashamed”, which is a very different thing.
I for one wish him well in his future endeavours. In my opinion, he was wasted as a politician.
Mpho // Oct 31, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Shikota were the main subject of the letter, are you saying he should gone behind their back?
Why do you people hate this guy so much. I am certain that if he prayed ‘Our father who art in heaven’, you would look for something wrong there.
Mqo // Oct 31, 2008 at 5:53 pm
This continent was going on fire when Mbeki took over. Democracy was almost unheard of. Now Africa has hope. There are hotspots, yes, but there is an overriding feeling of hope. Being Zimbabwean blinds you to this, but hope exists. At no point in history have so many African companies been so enteprising. African now have the courage to bid to buy English football clubs. That was unthinkable before Mbeki spoke of the African renaissance.
Africans can today say, that they are in a better position to use Africa’s resource to the benefit of Africans. It is a long term project but it is a progressing project. But wena you are too angry, possible, at yourself for looking on(and running away) while a region’s bread basket was being squandered. We understand you frustration.
But it gets tiring when one argues with house niggers who do not appreciate what other fellow Africans are doing for them, so their children are not looked down upon based solely on their African origins.
Mpho // Oct 31, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Shikota were the main subject of the letter, are you saying he should gone behind their back?
Why do you people hate this guy so much. I am certain that if he prayed ‘Our father who art in heaven’, you would look for something wrong there.
Mqo // Oct 31, 2008 at 5:53 pm
This continent was going on fire when Mbeki took over. Democracy was almost unheard of. Now Africa has hope. There are hotspots, yes, but there is an overriding feeling of hope. Being Zimbabwean blinds you to this, but hope exists. At no point in history have so many African companies been so enteprising. African now have the courage to bid to buy English football clubs. That was unthinkable before Mbeki spoke of the African renaissance.
Africans can today say, that they are in a better position to use Africa’s resource to the benefit of Africans. It is a long term project but it is a progressing project. But wena you are too angry, possible, at yourself for looking on(and running away) while a region’s bread basket was being squandered. We understand you frustration.
But it gets tiring when one argues with house niggers who do not appreciate what other fellow Africans are doing for them, so their children are not looked down upon based solely on their African origins.
“This continent was going on fire when Mbeki took over. Democracy was almost unheard of. Now Africa has hope.”
Khosi, this one made me spill my beer! Democracy started in Africa with Mbeki? Please, mfowethu!!!
Apologies to everyone for using rude words, all I can say in my defense is that positive talk of Thabo Mbeki’s presidential legacy makes me emotional.
I was on the Union building lawns celebrating Mandela’s inauguration. How much did he not give us? What did he give his successor?
Since then Thabo has managed to destroy many hopes and dreams. Who ever comes next will have their job cut out for them.
Mqo
Apologies!!!!!
It looked like you were getting a bit more emotional than usual, and I actually just meant to let Samantha know your background, in a short sentence. I by no means implied that you are simplistic in your view of Mbeki.
@ Z, my apologies too.
@Khosi
Thabo Mbeki – Africa’s shame
In 1994 the whole of South Africa voted for a new government, something to get away from the oppressive regime of the brutal Apartheid government. South Africans united against this inhumanity, and heroes were born.
The man who without a doubt is the most respected leader and polititian in the world is the great Nelson Mandela.
However, it appears that South Africa, with its population of just over 40 million souls… was only able to produce one good man. Nelson Mandela was able to prove the reasoning and actions behind Apartheid wrong.
Then along comes Thabo Mbeki.. at first the people of South Africa where happy. They believed that Thabo Mbeki would continue the healing and rebuilding legacy that Nelson had left behind and take South Africa and its new public image to new heights.
Our public image at the end of Mandela’s leadership was one of tolerance… a new nation of hope that pushed off the tyranny of fascism and embraced that of human rights, decency and understanding. A type of government never before seen on the African continent. A real and true roll model for the entire continent to follow.
Then along comes Thabo Mbeki. The greedy corrupt president of South Africa. He has basically being everything Nelson Mandela was not. He showed in his HIV/AIDS denialism that he is an easily led fool.
Under his leadership and denialism, the people of South Africa had to sue the government to get ARVs… and people died.
Under his leadership, South Africa used its vote to veto a call to help the Burmese people to escape their dictatorship and get basic human rights. Yes.. South Africa’s first vote on the UN security council is vote against the people of Burma and for their dictatorship. What a wanker.
We also have Thabo Mbeki to thank for corruption in big arms deals. For ham stringing South Africa’s education and health systems and for supporting and not punishing his corrupt officials.
Under Thabo Mbeki a climate of ultimate corruption… up to the top levels of our government has being allowed to spread. You all know the stories… if he is not supporting a crooked head of police, he is firing people for doing their jobs well.
None of us will forget him firing the Deputy Minister of Health, Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge for actually doing her job. For those of you who don’t remember her… she found out that one of our hospitals (The Frere Hospital in East London) was being so badly run .. that babies were dying left right and center simply because the staff at the Frere where too stupid, too uncompassionate, too corrupt and simply too evil. She tried to do something about this. She was fired by Mbeki.
Lets skip ahead to another chapter in Mbeki’s Satanic cookbook of success. One of Mbeki’s best boys.. top policeman in the country… Selebi was found by our anti-corruption unit to be corrupt. There’s a surprise! What does Mbeki do to the person that uncovers the corruption? He fires the head of the unit.. Vusi Pikoli… unconstitutionally!!! (You will notice I use more exclamation marks as I get more upset)
So you would think the mayhem and evil from Thabo Mbeki would hopefully get ironed out with age. You would be wrong if you thought that. If anything, the evil of Mbeki’s legacy is spreading.
South Africa’s single greatest shame though (for me personally).. is how we have treated our neighbors. Thabo Mbeki has taken everything that the ANC and Nelson Mandela had built in its reputation, and then threw it out the window with his completely and unforgivable stupidity with how he has handled Robert Mugabe and the Zimbabwe situation.
Mbeki with help from his boyfriend Mugabe, has done more damage to the people of Zimbabwe and South Africa than Apartheid and the colonials ever did. Hundreds of thousands of Zimbabweans have being slaughtered under the current ZANU-PF regime.
That’s almost one hundred fold more damage and death than the racist regimes of South Africa’s Apartheid and Smiths Rhodesian forces ever did. If anything, Mugabe and Mbeki have made people like Ian Smith and Verwoerd look like decent, compassionate and honest people.
Tens of thousands of people in Zimbabwe are right now… at this moment, being tortured, abused and murdered by Mugabe. What does Mbeki do? The single biggest thing he has done throughout his entire leadership. Nothing.
South Africa has let Africa down, and I know right now look like a stinking pile of dog poo to the international community as corrupt leaders throw human rights out the windows, turn away from decent honest allies and embrace the corrupt and deadly governments of China, Russia and the Middle East.
Most of the current leadership are a bunch of corrupt thieves who don’t care one bit for the people of South Africa and are completely dedicated to their own greed. The South African government has shamed the people of South Africa and the only thing we can ask the world, is to please forgive them.. while we learn to deal with the evil and corrupt.
In closing, I would like to say as a South African. Dont trust the South African government and certainly dont trust Thabo Mbeki… It is trust wasted.
Mqo,
I think your “hate” for the man is not allowing things objectively.
To blame South Africa ills for the last 14 years on one man’s shoulder is a bit childish.
Mandela’s status in South African politics is more of a myth than reality. Whilst Mandela was playing “nice guy and big brother” during his tenure we know who ran the show, do acknowledge Mbeki for that?
Right now I am actually curious to what Mandela would have done up to now if he was in Mbeki’s shoes…I bet a bit of the Mandela aura of grandeur would’ve diminished by now.
Thabo committed a myriad of mistakes but his triumphs by far outweights his shortcomings.
For the past 14 years, the ANC had powerful men and women in government and in the party but you see as incumbunt that he should be lumped with all the blame for south africans’ issues, dont you perhaps think that you are being a bit oversimplistic?
Just as a side note, throughout his tenure Mbeki was know to be a “jetsetter” that was for his alleged “penchant” for travelling. Its being almost a year since Polokwane and merely a couple of months that Kgalema has been president, have you perhpas noticed how often both of them are out of the country? Do we castigate them? I dont think so but yet we did that to Mbeki and he did both of these two gentleman’s jobs.
He may have not been perfect but evil he certainly wasnt…that should be clear to you.
Excuse the typo, I am doing it from my cellphone
Holy Moly. I am constantly amazed at how these sorts of diametrically opposed views can be so passionately held by quite sensible people. It does lead one to stop and seriously consider the other person’s point of view.
After I have done so, I most often find that I am still self-evidently correct and everyone else is a moron……ha ha!
Viva a touch of political discourse, Viva!
By the way, prior to the inception of the African Union which stemed from the OUA, promises were made by western nations to us but it was never kept, however since then it has changed, some African leaders are now treated with the dignity of being a head of state and not a monkey, concerted efforts are being made to treat African nations as a partner and not just a charity case.
A week or so ago Kgalema muted an idea of one single trade region for Africa in order to advance the interest of our Africa, now I urge you, go check SADC proposal of the past 10 years and you’ll realise that is nothing new and TM muted it year ago.
Mqo,
Not much I can argue with there!!
Samaita // Oct 31, 2008 at 8:07 pm
What does the word ‘almost’ mean to you?
Mqo,
Are you Zimbabwean or South African or both. I ask because you seem to include yourself in the matters of our country.
But let me tear apart your emotional argument:
You say:-
“He has basically being everything Nelson Mandela was not. He showed in his HIV/AIDS denialism that he is an easily led fool. ”
Can you tell us what Mandela did on HIV at the time he had the RESPONSIBILITY of state and not of celebrity? I will put it to you that he did nothing and in fact HIV infections took root under his watch. When Mandela took over, less than 5 percent of our pregnant women tested HIV positive.When he left that figure was already in the early twenties (I stand corrected but I think the actual figure was 22 percent). That figure is now stabilised at 28 percent. Mandela would not even allow himself to share a TV screen with HIV positive children.
Funny thing is, even Mandela himself has publicly acknowledged that no one has done more for SA and Africa than Thabo Mbeki has.
You then say:
“Under his leadership and denialism, the people of South Africa had to sue the government to get ARVs”
South Africa is a country of 44 million people. The Treatment Action Campaign took the government to court over ARV’s. Do you have the membership figures of the TAC and are they(the figure) so high that they would warrant you saying that the actions of the TAC are representative of the ‘people of South Africa’? Also which country in the world has roll out ARV’s and also kept HIV infection in check?
Moving on you say:
“We also have Thabo Mbeki to thank for corruption in big arms deals.”
I do not get this one. Are you saying that Mbeki himself was corrupt? Or are you saying he is the one who gave us he arms deal so by extention he gave us the arms deal? Because you do not have evidence on the former, I will engage you on the latter.
The latter would seem to suggest that corruption in this country only existed in the context of the arms deal. No, that cannot be right. Or are you saying that South Africa should not have had the arms deal at all, which will mean that what you are saying is that we should have not bee worried about the defence of our sovereignty.
Still on Mqo(the Zimbabwean),
“South Africa has let Africa down, and I know right now look like a stinking pile of dog poo to the international community as corrupt leaders throw human rights out the windows, turn away from decent honest allies and embrace the corrupt and deadly governments of China, Russia and the Middle East.”
You cannot be serious. My friend, at no time in modern history has Africa been so prominent in the world discourse and been so in control of its destiny, than in the past 10 years. Who are these ‘decent honest allies’ you speak off. Please give more substance.
You continue to froth:-
“Most of the current leadership are a bunch of corrupt thieves who don’t care one bit for the people of South Africa and are completely dedicated to their own greed.”
I am not in agreement with this statement but it is the current leadership that defeated Mbeki and threw him out. You can hardly blame him for fighting and losing.
Remember he also told us, I quote:-
“The person who does good, and does it honestly, must expect to be overpowered by the forces of evil. But it would be incorrect not to do good just because you know death is coming.”
I am really getting convinced that you are a Sabela (check Sarafina).
On Zimbabwe which seems to be your real gripe with Mbeki; you Zimbabweans squandered your own country, why are you blaming other people. At worse the one person who is doing something about the mistakes that YOU made?
@Pierre or Wessel or Lategan,
Is your lover Zimbabwean, by any chance?
@ Khosi
You are clever but not wise.
And by the way i am an AFRICAN.
Wessel
“Z Zuma is very transparent compared to Mbeki don’t don’t you think?”
No, I don’t think so.
“And Z don’t you think we need to go a bit more left? ”
I have no inherent problem with some aspects of the left in principle. I was illustrating the double speak. Too much control in the hands of the Blades, Vavis and Mantashes do concern me.
“I have to say the anti Zuma sentiments you here from many white people is a bit rich.”
You’re welcome to think that: play down the very real arguments people have, by creating a simplistic straw man (or is that a barbarian) and then demolishing it.
“The very fact that we are having a very lively and plural debate on this site is part of the opening up of public discourse that Zuma made possible by daring to stand up against the Mbeki machine.
As little as two and half years ago people were not having these dabates. Zuma ran the Mbeki gauntlet when it was very unfashionable to do so.”
I don’t have time now, so I’ll just leave it to you to uncover the logical fallacy in those two paragraphs.
@ khosi
You make me laugh. You are so quick to tag others “as a shameless racists”. We are all racist, including you. Some of us are proud racists and others like you are inferior racists. You asked for this. You are one of the dumbest clever people on this blog. Your friend lindelani is just dumb.
Wessel
Since you aren’t in the country currently, I’ll mention some of the things I have picked up on the whites and Zuma. There are many middle class white people who like Zuma, in fact of the three white persons in a work environment who have expressed themselves, two think Zuma would be better than Mbeki and 1 of them actively defends Zuma, I am odd one out. Even His defender seems to be slowly changing his mind about the new leadership as he wants to stop voting ANC, but I think he still likes Zuma.
There is also a number of white Pentecostal Christians who have become enthralled by him. One prophecy at a church in late 2002 said Zuma will be persecuted by the ANC and will become president and a woman will minister to him, such that he gets converted into a godly man.
Another such church prophesied that Zuma must take up the mantle of David and that he will restore godliness to the nation.
I wouldn’t be quick to generalise about the white middle class’s attitude towards him, since it is hard to gauge numbers, but there are many who like Zuma.
It seems implied in your comments above, so I might be wrong, but let me say that you are very wrong if you think my views are just based on some simplistic knee-jerk feelings of a supposedly “average” middle class white male succumbing to an irrational “western” fear of the black “barbarian”.
z,
I’d love to know where it is that you work.
Of all the white people I chat to about political issues, not one single one of them likes or believes in Zuma. In fact, many are extremely nervous about the state this country will find itself in if he does become President.
Of the black people that I have engaged on the subject of Zuma, the average response is: “Oh, that rapist!!” Or, “He’s a crook”.
Of the coloured people I have spoken to, not one single person I have engaged on the subject has come out in support of Zuma.
In fact, I have yet to find a person, other than the Zuma fans who blog here, who actually support the idea of Zuma becoming President.
So to get back to the letter (remember that hahahah) I think it’s interesting that the Friends of JZ have it one their web site. That site is actually a great source of transparent information.
Samantha
I think some see Zuma as a lesser of two evils; I am mainly comparing Zuma and Mbeki (leaving Motlanthe and all others out of the mix). Not so long ago it was fashionable to hate Mbeki, and people starting shifting their minds towards a pro Zuma stance, some are shifting back, some not. Even on this blog earlier this year while we were going through the one crisis after the other, I was arguing that the shift for many would be temporary, but for some it hasn’t been.
Here are some spheres or view points where I see some leaning towards Zuma:
- Zim: If you talk to people who have some direct links to Zim.
- HIV: Even in spite of his comments, some are more forgiving of Zuma than of Mbeki on this one.
- Poor white Afrikaners: He is perceived to be compassionate and non-racial and went to visit them. Also meeting with Solidarity and asking them to play the “De la Rey” song.
- Some believe all politicians are corrupt, and those that believe Mbeki to have been corrupt, see Zuma and Shaik’s deals as minor.
- As mentioned above some Pentecostal churches have made positive prophecies about him, see below.
- Even on this blog we’ve had a few whites come up in favour of Zuma.
- A number have indicated that he should actually even receive amnesty, arguing that his sins weren’t that great as far as politicians go. (For online, see Michael Trapido on thoughtleader for example)
- I have heard a few comments of whites who have met him, who really dig him. Actually a while ago someone said that on this blog also, If I remember correctly.
Here’s a link to the one prophecy allegedly made in 2002 concerning Zuma:
http://www.lewendewoord.co.za/newsite/news.php?extend.15
“this woman being used by God to speak into his life the things and the oracle of God. And God is going to visit him in a
sovereign way. The ANC are going to rise up and try and suppress him. They are going to try and stop him from coming forth, but he’s going to be hidden in camouflage, says the Lord. Yes! Yes! … He’s going to be hidden in camouflage…because they will not know that he’s actually a sheep in wolves clothing. And when he comes he will bring reformation into this nation. When
he rises up and we must pray that he will rise up.”
The power of a prophecy like that should not be underestimated in terms of reach in Pentecostal circles.
I am not saying that all of these give him an explicit endorsement, but many rather just prefer him to Mbeki, ala Wessel.
By some Mbeki is perceived: as the main master of the “corrupt” arms deal, as a Mugabe supporter, as indirectly responsible for the Eskom crisis, as responsible for the HIV problems, as protector of crooks in the matter of Selebi, firing of Pikoli, as trying to rule forever in the Polokwane election, as a racist himself in his critique of racists, as a man who disrespected Mandela.
A short note on the other side of the coin: Interestingly, of the three black foreigners I know, two do not like Zuma at all, one is Kenyan and the other is Congolese, the Rwandan is relatively new to SA, so I haven’t asked him.
My main point is that a person’s built in statistician is limited by a small norm sample. It’s too easy to generalise,which is why I said it is difficult to gauge numbers. Some polls can’t be trusted due to bad norm samples, how much more our own “sense” of what is going on (statistically, in terms of numbers).
I am in no way implying that Zuma is ahead in this, since that would surprise me, but don’t think there aren’t people on his side, how many I don’t know.
Z I think your conflating the views of poor working class Afrikaners with white views in general.
Whites in my experience, especially the wealthy ones, the ones with influence and power are very anti-Zuma.
Wessel
I didn’t mean to do that if that is the impression you got, it was meant to be of interest, nothing more. It was not meant to be a pronouncement on behalf of whites, these are all views I have encountered in some or other way from whites from different classes, I don’t pronounce on how many share them. I thought you might like to know you are not completely alone.
As a matter of further interest, not intended to deny you your view on wealthy whites, the Afrikaans Pentecostal church whose website hosts the quoted prophecy is in an affluent neighbourhood in Pretoria and has been criticised by some for being elitist due to the number of rich people in fancy cars who frequent it.
Maybe I am the only one who finds this interesting, that’s fine. In the end we don’t have a choice between Mbeki and Zuma any more, it’s yesterday’s news (which still interests me though). Today the question is how much support the new party will get, or more particularly how much share the ANC will lose. And of course whether and to what extent we will see violence as we see a liberation movement under pressure.
Wessel, I love the words “pooh – poohed” that you often use. I agree with one of your previous comments that this blog is exceptionally good.
Mbeki’s letter is not only written (at least partly) for public consumption, but from the point of view of the continental elder statesman that he knows he will become.
It is inconceivable that he will not get the Mo Ibrahim Prize (those who need to, Google it and save me from boring the others). In fact the panel of judges is probably relieved that he will be available, although they are not very fastidious – indeed they would be paralysed if they were too fastidious. They have to choose from the small group of African ex-presidents who have not disgraced themselves too dramatically (not that their task would be that much easier if they could choose from other continents).
So, Mbeki will have millions of (US) dollars to throw around, and with his grandiose ideas and glamorous contact network, will be setting up foundations, think-tanks and the like; hosting conferences, you name it. Brace yourselves.
z,
I so enjoy your posts, whether I agree or disagree, because your knowledge and information is far superior to mine in these matters. And my dissension with your views comes from a very basic stance of generalised discussion as opposed to any empirical data. So, I am certainly not in a position to dispute what you say, but merely to provide feedback on my own experience.
I also know that because of our right to vote in secret, many people may say one thing in public and vote very differently when the time comes.
What I do believe is that with all the political turmoil that has been churned up over the last few months, many apathetic individuals are finding themselves engaging in political discourse that might not necessarily have happened, even with the elections looming. People have become emotional about the leadership of this country again. For me, this is extremely positive and I believe will be evidenced by the number of voters who turn up to vote at the next election. I think we may have one of the biggest voter turnouts since 1994.
And that can only be a positive thing for our democracy.
Samantha says: “…I also know that because of our right to vote in secret, many people may say one thing in public and vote very differently when the time comes…”
The truthness (I wish that word existed) of your words may be felt a few days from now in these United States of America. Some of those who say “Obama! Obama!” are going to vote for McCain and thus causing an upset. The opposite is not quite as likely.
Pierre, the letter was addressed, privately, to Jacob Zuma regarding, firstly, his involvement in the campaign, secondly, the Lekota/Shilowa movement, and thirdly, his concerns and suggestion in respect of the challenges facing the ANC. Why would he therefore self-reflect as though he was writing a memoir of his years in office? In fact this self-reflection in respect of the failures of the ANC government can be found in various addresses by Thabo Mbeki, and can be easily accessed by those who have a respect for facts and who conduct basic research before spewing unsubstantiated bile!
To suggest, as a lawyer, that there was a plot instigating by Mbeki against Ramaphosa, Sexwale and Phosa is outrageous, and shows your disrespect of the truth. Even the likes of Jeff Radebe (who was in cabinet at the time and is wholly against Mbeki) have reflected on the matter and confirmed that, at worst; Mbeki is guilty of having trusted his minister (Tswethe) too much. They suggest that he ought to have ignored the suggestions of a conspiracy from the Minister in government responsible for safety and security (for the sake of the good name and reputation of the three mentioned gentlemen! Gen Meiring suggested a conspiracy by Winnie Mandela against the government of Nelson Mandela, and was dismissed for this suggestion (Tswethe was forced to apologize by Mbeki), yet it is interesting that nobody cites this event as an example of Mandela “instigating” against Winnie Mandela! Pierre, despise Mbeki (for your reasons) but desist from circulating unsubstantiated statements.
Pierre, how do you confidently state that Mbeki confused people about HIV and AIDS? To the best of my recollection (supported by facts), government’s policy has been A(abstain)B(be faithful)C(condomise) since the early nineties. I don’t ever recall being informed otherwise by any government official, and as a lay (non-medically trained individual) I have condomised, and accept responsibility for my failure to do so. Why should the results of my amorous exploits be attributed to Thabo Mbeki?
To the best of my knowledge and recollection, there are no term limits in the ANC’s constitution. I am one of the individuals who nominated Mbeki for the third term for the presidency of the ANC, when it became clear that Jacob Zuma would likely be elected without any contestation, in the absence of Mbeki’s participation. Are you suggesting that he should have denied us a contested election? In fact Pierre, what are you suggesting? I don’t recall Mbeki nominating himself for election in the 2007 conference, you may perhaps have better facts.
To Ishmael Malale // Oct 31, 2008 at 12:23 pm
You statement: “You would remember when he asserted that the issue of a limited tenure for a president is not an epitome of democracy and cited Britain as a country which has no limits for the Prime Minister”, is an outright lie (as far as I am concerned). Please provide the date and occasion when this statement was allegedly made? To the best of my recollection it was Robert Suresh Roberts who made this suggestion and NOT Mbeki. Your flagrant disregard for the truth, in the foregoing regard, is proof of the prevalent and scant regard for truth, to which Mbeki alludes in his letter to Zuma.
Vuyo, you seem rather gullible. It’s an old Mbeki ploy to use underlings to do his dirty work and using Tswete to discredit his opponents was a classic example of that. If you believe otherwise then I have to put you in toucfh with the tooth fairy.
On HIV and Aids you may want to read the book “Three Letter Plague” by Jonny Steinberg or just check out a previous Blog post last week for confirmation. Mbeki said “A virus cannot cause a syndrome”, he said he did not know anyone with AIDS, he said that Aids is a disease of poverty (as if rich people with HIV who do not take ARV’s do not die as well), he reappointed his Minister of Health who said people must be given a choice to either take ARV’s which are poisonous or beetroot and garlic which are not. Duhhhh! What more proof do you need: Pictures of the corpses of the hundreds of thousands of South Africans who died needlessly because of this one man’s stubbornness and megalomania?
No pierre, its not being gullible, just plain fidelity to facts.
So Vuyo, you’ll retract your statement on Aids then? Since we are all staying true to the facts!
Mpho // Nov 4, 2008 at 4:36 pm
What do you want Vuyo to retract. Please do not ask him to retract Pierre’s words.
Pierre De Vos // Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 pm
“as if rich people with HIV who do not take ARV’s do not die as well”
YO!!! Yini le manje? Mhlola muni lo?
Are you saying that people on ARVs, rich or poor, do not die? Even prematurely!! When they do not die, how many other people do they infect?
Khosi/TM, I want him to retract “Pierre, how do you confidently state that Mbeki confused people about HIV and AIDS?” and his assertion that Mbeki and Manto did not cause the death of over three hundred South Africans for want of medical treatment.
Khosi/TM I’d have so much more respect for you/TM if a hand was held up in shame in relation to the disgrace that was our Government’s response to HIV/Aids. From my personal experience, I heard Manto accuse a black female journalist of being “unAfrican” because she questioned the elevation of diet over medication – which Manto did not deny. I also sat in Portfolio Committee Hearings where no good reason could be given as to why victims of rape could not be given PEP drugs. Even the doctors came out and explained how they could be held at the trauma rooms in police stations. But it was kept out of the Bill deliberations by the Portfolio Chair, who was son rewarded with a Deputy Ministerial post. I have heard more from the lips of TM, but I’ll keep that to myself.
Mpho // Nov 4, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Okay
khosi: I have tried not to comment on your views on HIV and AIDS. You seem to have the belief that the death of people with HIV / AIDS should be welcomed. Your argument is that if they did not die they would have infected others. What is your opinion with people with TB, shouldn’t we let them die too. Your argument might be that TB is curable, remember a lot of people in South Africa actually pass on this disease to others because they run away from hospitals and some don’t take their medicines etc. You also have the notion that all HIV / AIDS affected people are irresponsible and would infect others. I do not believe that this is the case. What does an 18 year old woman who has been raped and not supplied with PEP drugs do? Do we say she deserves to die because she will spread the disease? What about people who received it through blood transfusions, dirty needles because our hospitals did not care about hygiene etc. Is the death of these people justified because they might spread the disease? Your arguments remind me of how people with leprosy were treated. I have always put myself in other people’s shoes, what would I want to happen to me should I be infected, would I want no treatment? Would I have asked to be infected?
Of the 300 000 people who died because of not getting treatment from our government how many where poor, how many where black. Is this why you feel that their lives are not worth it. In the UKhahlamba district about 142 babies died because of unclean water. I will assume that you one of the people who feel that if they hadn’t died they would have depleted our resources and more poor people would have used up state funds.
The unfortunate thing about life is that we do not know the future; I might be involved in an accident and be injected with a dirty needle should I then be HIV positive, expect no ARV treatment? It might happen to you.