Maybe one’s view of the US criminal justice system is wrong. Having lived in the US for a while, I have always had the idea that US authorities take crime rather seriously and are rather ruthless and persistent in trying to prosecute criminal suspects. While they are not nearly as efficient in running the country as star-struck pro-Americans might think, the judiciary and the criminal justice system always struck me as being pretty efficient (and sometimes nasty). (Maybe this is necessary, what with all the right wing nut cases running around with guns and blowing up tax offices.)
When I drove from Kansas City to Memphis I was terrified of being caught speeding or breaking the law in any other way because I was warned that I would be ticketed or prosecuted.
But according to Minister Lindiwe Sisulu, the information provided by the relevant authorities in the US regarding fugitives from justice cannot be trusted – at least not in the state of Connecticut. At a briefing yesterday she was asked about her special advisor Paul Ngobeni who is alleged to be a fugitive from US justice. She replied that:
Special advisor Dr. Paul Ngobeni is not a fugitive from law. I have received a letter from the leader of official opposition Mr Trollip who has enquired about what we are doing. I have asked him to furnish me with further information about his allegation Mr Paul Ngobeni is free to travel as and when he pleases. Should you furnish me – yourselves or Mr Trollip – with the necessary information I will act on it. The information we have at our disposal is information we have tested and we also base a lot of our assessment on the outcome of the investigation at the University of Cape Town (UCT) and the statement made by the vice counsellor of UCT. Should you have any information we are available but he is free to work in my office.
Having had some differences of opinion with Mr Ngobeni, just for a larkand because I had nothing better to do I went to the website of the judicial branch of the state of Connecticut and searched for information on the status of Mr Ngobeni’s various legal run-ins with that State. This is what I found:
Note, the website claims that Mr Ngobeni’s re-arrest has been ordered. If this is true, it would make him a fugitive from justice. It would also make the Minister’s statement untrue. But then again, we know the US system is notoriously corrupt and inefficient so maybe the website information is just plane wrong. At first glance the information does seem rather convincing. I wonder whether this information will suffice for the Minister to Act. I suspect it probably would not. Those Americans have invaded Iraq so who knows what other nonsense they will conjure up to smear the good name of the Minister’s personal advisor.
PS: For details of the various cases allegedly pending against Mr Ngobeni click here and type in his name in the search section.
Do I detect irony? Fass will love it. And why may I ask have you not written on the most important decision of the day. No time for the news Prof?
I am a bit confused. I thought you were allegedly some kind of impartial professor of constitutional law.. not some racist stalinist…
You endorse violence from left wing terrorists, as freedom fighters while they necklaces those who dissent…. and wage campaigns of mass terror on the poor…. against their alleged campaigns against tyranny
But you think that ‘right wingers, who take their fight against tyrannical goverment, are nutcases’…
interesting.. what definition of sanity are you referring to prof?
Or is it just that your defintion is ‘sanity’ is a bit stalinesque?
Henry Thoreau, where do you get off with such a ridiculous post. Just wait for the follow up comments to your remarks, if you don’t like mine.. You are either out of your league or you have no idea who our Prof is, not that I need to defend him. I mean, who are you, coming out of left field this way, are you paid for this nonsense?
I can’t think of any previous comment in my years of following comments, as ignorant as what you just posted.
I think you need to do a bit of research on the Prof before you make such comments.
Possibly you are one of the denialist ANC self serving mafia supporting the thieving riffraf and paid spinners who plague the internet with their obscene, highly unbelievable and obsequious self serving interests.
The times they are a changing, and blowing in the wind, and to boot, the Afrikaaner and their English friends, and thei colored and Indian compatriots are fed up with you and your ilk’s kak. Additionally, here are many other intelligent and caring blacks who are also fed up with the criminality at government level, and likewise with truly suspicious comments such as yours.
Get a life man. This country is in deep doo doo, as in trouble, can you understand that? Or likely you don’t care. Our Prof a Stalinist, for Gawd’s sake, where were you educated, Moscow, by the KGB? You are the first poster in years I have retaliated to the point of calling an idiot, as in ignorant. Sies man!
How dare you utilize the name Henry Thoreau? You abuse his memory.
Prof, and any others who are interested. Lets not forget the process of disinformation which is utilized by compromised regimes.
Henry,
The Prof really didn’t mean that when he wrote ‘nut cases blowing up blowing up tax offices’. I think he was referring to those ladies and gents who are newly minted members of various ‘tea party’ groups in the USA, in particular, the fellows who drive around in their 4×4 pickups, playing, music from speakers – mounted atop the 4×4 – where the speakers are the size of our Big Hole. You know, those people … who if they ever came to RSA, and visited some shopping centers here, they would smile when they drive into same, gently navigating ancient Nazi helmets sunk into the ground used as calming zones. Those people . . . not nuts . . .
Yes Andre, call him Henry. He doesn’t under any circumstances deserve to be referred to as as Thoreau. I come from Walden Pond. The man’s an idiot.
@Henry
Methinks the kind of sanity Professor de Vos is talking about is the kind where Timothy McVeigh is not some ordinary right-wing thinking dude who had a slight gripe about the government.
Here’s one for you Henry :
Why did the United States government hire a former hotdog vendor to pull the switch that executed Timothy McVeigh?
Well, they thought he might relish the job.
John Roberts: spin and shit. You reveal yourself.
Prof: your site has been compromised! Time for your supporters to speak up.
@sirjay
A bit less of the old cloak and dagger stuff please old chap.
Btw, I didn’t realise I had anything to conceal or reveal by voicing an opinion on a blog I find of relevance to me.
You been taking lessons from Floyd ?
Sirjay,
Your little emotional tirade sans any evidence, was not very legal minded.
I don’t do this ideological fasicms little addiction thing… I consider everyone’s argument based upon the evidence; whether Timothy McVeigh, Marilyn Buck or Jaan Laaman, et al.
I am willing to consider their argument and listen to their cases, but I have not endorsed either violence from the left or the right; I am one of those idiot Ghandian’s; spent a year in prison for it too…
Now back to the alleged impartial professor, who considers one group of violent thugs to be ‘freedom fighters’ fighting tyranny; and another group of violent thugs fighting tyranny to be ‘nutcases’.
Don’t sound very impartial to me… thanks for not wanting him on my jury or as my judge. I enquired what his defintion of sanity was.
Not a difficult question. If you gonna go around and accuse people of being nutcases, surely you have first gone about clarifying what your defintion is of a nutcase, and whether you have evidence for the allegation?
So, what is the Prof’s definition of ‘sanity’ and if such things don’t appeal to him, you know definitions and evidence… ain’t that a bit stalinist? You just accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a ‘nutcase’?
How exactly is that remotely impartial?
Henry,
This is a legal blog, specifically contitutional law. I think you should perhaps read our Bill of Rights very carefully. Perhaps internalize it, if you have the time. I think you may find a good definition of sanity there. If our Bill of Rights is lacking in sanity, if it does not make sense, isn’t perhaps not how rational, sentient beings should behave then tell us please. This is perhaps the context of what is going on here, that perhaps addresses the questions at issue, and maps out the consequences when sanity is lacking.
Back to article.
Pierre, how does any of this surprise you? Do you really expect *any* kind of integrity from the ANC anymore? There is none. None at all. The era of Mandela and Tutu is gone and with it all all honour and integrity.
We have gone full circle: the ANC has become the National Party. Racist, corrupt, oppressive.
Just as the old National Party followed the line of “white is right” now the ANC takes the same line. Provided you are black and with them, you are incapable of sin. Anyone who dares raise any criticism is an enemy forthwith.
I get the idea it has got to do with the nebulous concept of ubuntu. Which apparently [also] means / entails that when a Black person did something “wrong” or unacceptable [especially by European standards or critetia or culture], he/she should be defended/exonerated.
That’s how Hlope was “handled”, and against which Kriegler et al are objecting. They’re actually trying to legally review the ubuntu way of ‘handling’ such a situation.
Same with Sisulu here. That is why she is rallying behind Ngobeni – against all odds and evidence.
The very interesting part [ and which might warrant a M-thesis in ethics or legal philosophy], is what is lying under or behind this ubuntu way of doing. For the sake of building intercultural understanding – instead of denying the profound differences in points of departure in these matters.
Lindiwe Sisulu is lying through her teeth plain and simple. So sad because I considered Lindiwe as one of the few sane minds within the ANC, once upon a time. How time flies- and her credibility went with it.
Sies!
CD says:
March 20, 2010 at 7:18 am
“Just as the old National Party followed the line of “white is right” now the ANC takes the same line. Provided you are black and with them, you are incapable of sin. Anyone who dares raise any criticism is an enemy forthwith.”
That is nonsense.
Unless the view that those who criticise are themselves above criticism, is valid.
Robust debate is not an arena for those who want to be treated with kid gloves.
I suspect that Pierre may indeed be employing a certain rather vulgar irony in his attack on the Minister and Dr Ngobeni. In fact, we know that the U.S. is an imperialist power internationally – and profoundly racist domestically. That being so, we cannot dismiss the possibility that a fearless black attorney of immense learning is being targeted by Hlophephobic elements.
Also, do not forget that Dr Ngobeni is innocent until proven guilty.
“Henry David Thoreau (born David Henry Thoreau; July 12, 1817 – May 6, 1862)[1] was an American author, poet, naturalist, tax resister, development critic, surveyor, historian, philosopher, and leading transcendentalist. He is best known for his book Walden, a reflection upon simple living in natural surroundings, and his essay, Civil Disobedience, an argument for individual resistance to civil government in moral opposition to an unjust state”
How apt!!! hehe… get a llife dude… I see through you…
Pierre, is this person you’re writing about the homophobe who called you a pervert, simply because you’re batting for the other team?
Siestog, it must be difficult to get through life if you’re such a parochial and chauvinistic vulgarian. (I’m referring to the illustriously well-travelled and cosmopolitan Dr Ngobeni of course.)
@Maggs
Is it so? There seems to a near hysteria in the ANC of criticism nowadays. For example, how do explain the reaction that – justifiably – charging Malema with hate speech amounts to an incitement to murder him?
CD says:
March 21, 2010 at 6:42 am
“There seems to a near hysteria in the ANC of criticism nowadays. For example, how do explain the reaction that – justifiably – charging Malema with hate speech amounts to an incitement to murder him?”
If you regard one rather silly comment from a fellow who had clearly not thought enough before making it as hysteria then I plead no contest.
CD says:
March 21, 2010 at 6:42 am
I’m afraid we don’t need a campaign to incite the people against Julius Malema. Malema himself, and with him the ANCYL is doing a pretty good job in inciting people against Malema.
Chris, your optimism is touching.
Judging by the rapturous receptions Malema receives, the very statements that outrage the chattering classes (read liberal whites and a few articulate and privileged blacks), only bolsters Ju-Ju’s popularity among his constituency.
Maggs, I understood it as being rather more than one silly gentleman. What about the brouhaha when Afriforum tried to hand over the names of the murdered? You didn’t think that reaction was rather hysterical (when they could have quietly accepted it with dignity) as was the threat to send 3000 cohorts into the streets in response? Perhaps all sides are a bit hysterical, but still. By the way “no contest” in a legal context means that you surrender the point or plead guilty. Perhaps not what you intended?
CD says:
March 21, 2010 at 20:31 pm
Hey CD – by “no contest” I intended neither refuting nor accepting, which is what I understand it to mean – maaybe the legal beagles will advise.
Unpack the Afriforum issue somewhat so that I can grasp the essence of your concern.
it seems true that mr ngobeni might be having some issues with US Judicial authorities, but if i was prof i was gonna stay clear considering the public spat he had with ngobeni and the fact that prof might have played vital role in “expelling” of mr ngobeni by uct.anyway it is a public knowledge that in the US (may be until recently) mandela was listed under the list of terrorists, winnie and tokyo are probably still under such list 20 years after unbanning of liberation movements, so US judicial and political system cannot be the benchmark of human rights and justice atleast to the ” field negroes”.
Kenneth, please call this gentleman “Dr” Ngobeni.
Otherwise, I agree with you. We cannot trust the U.S. legal system. They are cruel imperialists, and racists.
Thanks.
MDF
Would you please explain to me on what basis you refer to Mr Ngobeni as Dr?
It is my understandng that he has a JD qualification, which is the equivalent of an LLB in SA. To my knowledge, a JD is a professional doctorate, not an academic-based doctorate, or PhD in SA .
@ Justice
May I point out that “J.D.” stands for “Juris Doctor.”
Given that most JD’s study for seven years, cumulatively, this is, in duration, the equivalent of any Ph.d.
Also, Dr Ngobeni obtained his JD at N.Y.U. Law School — a superlative institution.
Finally, Dr. Ngobeni’s defense of Hlophe JP has manifested his brilliance.
Thanks.
@MDF
My brief investigation into the duration of the JD course indicates this to be 3 years full time or 4-5 years part-time. Anyone taking 7 years can’t be taking it seriously.
Further, may I refer you to the Law School Bible
“Odd as it may seem, the Juris Doctor is not, however, a terminal degree in terms of academic research degrees, and rarely are its holders acknowledged with the title of “doctor” (though there is absolutely no prohibition against this whatsoever). While most U.S. law schools now only offer the Juris Doctor as a first professional law degree, some continue to offer the LLB as well. From an academic perspective, above the Juris Doctor (JD) is the LLM degree (Master of Laws) and then the SJD, JSD, LLD, etc., the true research based doctor of Laws terminal degrees. ”
Thank you
Justice, we are talking past each other.
An average JD is attained after 7 years of cumulative study; one must have an undregrad degree to get in, and most such last four years.
Similarly for many an Oxbridge degrees; three years undrergrad, plus four years post grad.
That aside, I am somewhat surprised that you do not recognise the post-Doc brilliance of Dr Ngobeni’s. See, e.g., the 250 page apologia he penned for JFHA.
Thanks.
undregrad = undergrad.
(Post-doc spelling.)
MDF
Cumulative, maybe, yes. Please pardon my post-doc (academic) lack of comprehension.
I have not had the honour of reading the 250 pages apologia, but length notwithstanding, that does not constitute the requirements for a PhD. I have read many academic and non-academic dissertations, and many non-PhD authors do exhibit sheer brilliance of critical thought, analysis, logic and clarity of writing -still doesn’t give them the right to call themselves Dr. I refer again to the Law School Bible- the JD is a graduate degree, is the requirement for a Masters(LLM), which preceeds the terminal qualification- the doctorate.
Not only paul Ngobeni that has unfinished brushes with the criminal law
http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/News/1059/5661e3bb1deb4e19bbc5be7a53864e63/23-03-2010-08-49/Premier_faces_2_arrest_warrants
Kenneth
What an extraordinary argument. Does this mean that because the ANC government supports Mugabe and the military junta in Burma, for example, and has allowed Manto and Mbeki to get away with genocide, we are to condemn equally the jailing of murders such as Johann Nel and other common criminals? I am not a supporter of the US, but give us a break. Declaring Nelson Mandela or Osama bin Laden a terrorist has nothing to do with the day-to-day workings of the courts of justice.
Sarah, I am frankly disappointed at your naive endorsement of U.S. crimiminal justice, and its vendetta against Dr Ngobeni.
May I remind you of the crimes committed by the U.S. law enforcement system at Abu-Ghraib, Gauntanamo, and in the execution of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg? Not to mention Vietnam, Chile, Guatamala, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Cambodia, Grenada, Honduras, Wounded Knee, Little Rock, and the terrorist “War of Independence” against Britain in the 1770′s.
MKF
A case of the lobster calling the prawn pink, or whatever the saying is. You are being a little naive or perhaps we should say disingenuous when you link a country’s state foreign policy with its judicial procedures/law enforcement. Granted, one would like the two to co-exist happily, complement and compliment each other, but you know that while one gets it generally right, the other gets im horribly wrong mostly. Britain, for example, has an appalling human rights record all over the world and loves to love a dictator or two and France in Algeria, etc etc. But their legal systems work fairly efficiently in chasing down people who block ramblers’ rights of way, who haven’t paid their traffic fines or who have raped, murdered and buried in their backyard a few children. Likewise I’d suggest America whose legal system, in this instance, is successfully keeping riffraff such as Paul ‘Dr’ Ngobeni out of its courts.
… and assisting the state by inflicting him on another country, thereby carrying out local justice and internationl human rights abuse in one fell swoop.
Sarah:
I have a sneaking suspicion that you may be an agent of the forces of HLOPHEPHOBIA, hell bent on punishing Dr Ngobeni for his assistance to the JP.
Also, I remain troubled by your failure to acknowledge that the American rebels used terrorism in their lawless uprising against His Majesty’s Government.
Oh, sorry, I see I called you MKF. MDF.
We used justified force in evicting the British scum. I am proud to count amongst my forebears those who fought for this noble cause under the banner of Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben and I often wear my bikini with a reproduction of his bust printed on each side.
@MDF
My mother used to say ” while you live in my house, you obey the rules”. whether you belief the rules are unreasonable does not matter. You follow the rules or you will get a klap, no matter your age.
notwithstanding the fact of the US law enforcement “crimes”. If you want to live like an American and participate in their wealth you must obey their rules. When you do not obey the laws, then you make yourself guilty of criminal conduct.
Honestly if you are not guilty face the court. That being said hope you have the best liar to defend you.
Why cant the minister admit to his indiscretions and say due to policy consideration and his “special skills” it was considered that he would be adequate/best candidate/best EE appointee to perform the job.
It would then be up to the chattering classes to dispute whether his appointment is a form of “Baantjies vir boeties’ or whether it would be unconstitutional to appoint or not appoint him and whether he has a right to be appointed even with a criminal record.
@MDF
“Dr” Paul Ngobeni is innocent until proven guilty.
True – so why does he not meet his accusers in a court of law and prove his innocence?
Does he not want his “day in court”.
Perhaps he can persuade the US AG to withdraw the charges?
If he is anything like the brilliant legal scholar that you seem to believe him to be, he should win the various cases hands down, surely?
I share your utter disgust and disdain for the USA’s foreign “policy” and unlawful attacks on sovereign states.
Their criminal justice system, however would appear overall to be reasonably effective, and if our was half as effective, SA would be a much better and safer place.
Sisulu’s letter was so obviously written by Ngobeni himself. The “he has an incredible legal mind” bit was a dead give away. Very sad. Wasn’t he arrested for failing to pay child maintenance the last time he went back for a hearing?
Mpho says:
March 23, 2010 at 22:21 pm
“Sisulu’s letter was so obviously written by Ngobeni himself. The ‘he has an incredible legal mind’ bit was a dead give away.”
Ouch!
Incredible as in “not credible; hard to believe; unbelievable”??
Oh my! I’ve just seen the whole conversations surrounding the JD undergrad course having endowned Ngobeni with the title Dr!!!!!! I cannot believe such rubbish has been written by people who think they have brains. It’s as bad as that Xula character calling Zuma Dr Zuma because some university bestowed him with an honourary degree.
What is the world coming to?