Constitutional Hill

Mogoeng v Hoffman: Better not to roll around in the mud with the pigs

The unseemly and racially charged row which has erupted after Paul Hoffman laid a complaint against chief justice Mogoeng Mogoeng at the Judicial Service Commission (JSC) for remarks the chief justice made about judicial transformation provides a textbook example of the manner in which race often colours our judgment and determines how we view a specific event. Whenever the matter of racial transformation is raised, most protagonists become blind and deaf to reason, choosing racial solidarity over rational debate and critical reflection.

In his (now infamous) address to Advocates for Transformation, chief justice Mogoeng Mogoeng delivered a spirited defence of the JSC, while also arguing for the need to change briefing patterns to help open up the legal profession to more women and black South Africans. He also pointed out – correctly in my view – that “standards” are often invoked by those who oppose transformation in a blatantly racist manner that associates high standards with white men and a lowering of standards with the opening up of the profession to women and black South Africans.

The chief justice did not say anything that many of us have not been saying and writing for ages.

Paul Hoffman of the Institute of Accountability (which I thought consisted of no more than one man and a fax machine, but whose website indicates that a gaggle of white men and women are associated with it), took umbrage at these remarks, arguing that the chief justice had brought the judiciary of South Africa and the high office which he holds into disrepute because he had descended into the arena of contestation and controversy in respect to issues which are pending in the High Court.

But upon closer inspection of the complaint against the chief justice, the real complaint is not that he forcefully (and undiplomatically) spoke about judicial transformation. After all, our judges often speak out about controversial legal issues. Just two weeks ago I lauded the late justice Pius Langa for a speech he made in Stellenbosch in favour of “transformative constitutionalism”, a highly controversial and contested concept. No one complained when Langa made this speech, perhaps because it dealt more broadly with transformation and did not directly threaten the interests of the white men who remain the largest financial beneficiaries of the legal profession.

In the past, other judges have been lauded for speaking up about the need to respect the rule of law, for example. As far as I know, no one lodged a complaint with the JSC against a judge for doing so. A senior judge even has his own TV programme in which he quizzes panellists about highly controversial political matters. Hoffman, as far as I’m aware, has not lodged a complained about any of these judges with the JSC.

One might argue that this instance is different because the issue of whether the JSC implements its section 174 mandate in a constitutionally valid manner might still come before the Constitutional Court. But this does not seem like a plausible argument, as the chief justice (as head of the JSC) would have had to recuse himself from hearing such a case in any event. He was therefore never going to hear a case dealing with the JSC, whether he said anything about its work in public or not.

This suggests that the disagreement is not about a profound matter of principle (should a judge ever comment on a controversial constitutional issues) but rather about the ideological substance of the views expressed by the chief justice. This disagreement is, of course, fuelled by self-interest and by the protection of the status quo. Judges can speak up, the attitude seems to be, as long as they say what we want them to say and do not say anything that threatens our financial and other interests.

According to Hoffman’s complaint, the remarks of the chief justice are premised on an untenable legal interpretation of section 174(2) of the Constitution, a section which requires the JSC to take into account the need for the judiciary to reflect broadly the racial and gender composition of South Africa. According to Hoffman, these remarks conflicted with the provisions of section 9 of the Constitution, which proscribes “unfair discrimination against ‘white’ male lawyers”.

This is, of course, uninformed nonsense. Whatever one may personally think of the merits of race-based redress measures (and I know the usual suspects will froth at the mouth and spew entirely uninformed nonsense about equality and discrimination after reading this column), no one with even a modicum of knowledge of the Constitutional Court jurisprudence of section 9 of the Constitution will be able to argue with a straight face that robust measures to transform the racial and gender composition of the judiciary in line with section 174 of the Constitution (read with section 9, especially section 9(2)) are constitutionally impermissible.

(Here is a dare: why doesn’t anyone tempted to comment on issues of race-based affirmative action first read and study the Constitutional Court judgment of Minister of Finance v Van Heerden? Once they have done so, I promise to engage in a reasoned and calm discussion with them on whether our Constitution endorses such forms of affirmative action.)

What the chief justice said about the transformation of the judiciary might upset some people. But it is not constitutionally controversial. Only the blind, the dishonest or those who are completely ignorant of the relevant judgments of the Constitutional Court (and of the wealth of academic literature on affirmative action written by both traditional liberal scholars like Ronald Dworkin, and by more progressive legal scholars) will claim otherwise.

The principles enunciated by the chief justice are therefore entirely uncontroversial (at least for the well informed). Of course, whether the JSC in fact always fulfils this constitutional mandate prudently and with the necessary wisdom to ensure the long-term legitimacy of the judiciary is another matter. Reasonable people can differ on this point.

Once we have all accepted that the Constitution not only allows, but requires, the JSC to pay regard to race and gender equity when it makes appointments to the bench, and that the legal profession has a special duty to advance transformation in the profession in order to safeguard the legitimacy of the judiciary (also by reviewing briefing patterns, as I have argued on numerous occasions), we could begin to have a productive debate about how the JSC should fulfil this mandate, and whether it is currently doing so in a astute and sensible manner.

By laying a complaint against the chief justice because he forcefully argued in favour of race and gender transformation of the judiciary, Hoffman muddied the waters and made it more difficult to have a real, reasoned, and level headed discussion about what the JSC is doing right, and what it is doing wrong.

This does not mean that I think the chief justice did himself any favours when he couched his valid concerns in such highly emotive language, indulged in sweeping generalisations and attacked unnamed individuals and groups. Nor was it helpful that he expressed what appear to be anti-democratic sentiments when he referred to those who disagree with him as indulging in an “illegitimate neo-political campaign” (whatever a neo-political campaign might be). In a democracy, people have a right to talk nonsense, so calling what they say illegitimate displays a rather worrying lack of respect for freedom of expression.

A wise judge always deals with specifics, not vague conspiracy theories. A wise judge – one of stature – does not insult unnamed NGO’s and commentators, but demolishes specific remarks and specific arguments made by commentators or NGOs with calmness, understatement and cold reason. He or she eschews emotional language and couches trenchant criticism in a diplomatic manner.

Such a judge understands that his or her stature as a judge grows when his or her remarks rise above the petty politics and narrow self-interest that people like Paul Hoffman wallow in. When you roll around in the mud with the pigs, you are going to get dirty. A wise judge knows this and avoids getting down with the pigs. He or she also knows that one’s stature as a judge is diminished if one appears to take criticism too personally and if one is too thin skinned.

Of course, it is not an impeachable offense for a judge to make a speech on a politically charged matter relating to the Constitution. The rule of law is a highly politically charged matter, as most Marxists will argue, but few of us would raise an eyebrow if a judge forcefully defends the rule of law in a speech before lawyers. Neither is it an impeachable offense to use emotive language when doing so. It might be unwise and counter-productive. But impeachable? Please, don’t make me laugh.

Luckily for the chief justice, the anti-transformation complaint lodged against him by Hoffman in defence of the (financial and other) interests of some white men detracted attention from the rather undiplomatic and otherwise stature-diminishing tone of the speech. Ironically, by attacking the chief justice and lodging a complaint, Hoffman enhanced the credibility of chief justice Mogoeng in the eyes of many of us. In fact, maybe justice Mogoeng should think of hiring Hoffman as his PR representative.

Such are the politics of race and redress in South Africa.

In a world in which racism is deeply entrenched and in which the power and privilege of whiteness perpetuates and defends itself aggressively, it is difficult for most of us to choose sides in favour of white privilege (read, Hoffman). That is why we choose the side of the chief justice, even as we acknowledge that he could have presented his argument in a manner that displayed more wisdom, high-mindedness and maturity.

  • Peter

    Oh Gosh Chaps, finally, he speaks………it is the ‘usual suspects’ who are to blame…….

  • Ozoneblue

    Yep. Like clockwork orange. No surprises, if your [white] privilege continues to depend on subservience to your new political masters and not on any sort of principles what do you expect?

  • Ozoneblue

    “This does not mean that I think the chief justice did himself any favours when he couched his valid concerns in such highly emotive language, indulged in sweeping generalisations and attacked unnamed individuals and groups.”

    And where do you stand on this you spineless scumbag?

    “SAPS targets

    Hermann has produced an authoritative book on the subject entitled Affirmative Tears: Why representivity does not equal equality. He refers to a case involving Jennila Naidoo, an Indian woman with 24 years’ police service. In 2009, her name came up before a provincial interviewing panel for the position of cluster commander – with the rank of general – in Krugersdorp. Her application was rejected on the grounds of the SAPS’s affirmative action policy. It was given to a black male officer instead.

    Naidoo initiated a grievance procedure, arguing that she had been unfairly discriminated against. Naidoo also argued that the SAPS’s affirmative action plan placed an absolute ceiling on promotion. The case was heard in the Johannesburg Labour Court by Judge AJ Schaik.

    On behalf of the SAPS, one Colonel Ramathoka explained the plan to the court. In this plan, the SAPS targets were based on the 2001 census report.

    South Africans were made up of 79 percent Africans, 9.6 percent whites, 8.3 percent coloured and 2.5 percent Indians. The target for women was 30 percent and for men 70 percent.

    Thus when the relevant position was advertised, the allocation for Indians – the apartheid-defined racial category into which Naidoo fell – was 2.5 percent of all available posts; 70 percent of the 2.5 percent for Indian males and 30 percent of the 2.5 percent for Indian females.

    There were 19 positions available on level 14. This translates into 15 Africans of which 11 were African males. Seven posts were filled so four African males were needed. For Indian females “the calculation is 19 times 2.5 percent = 0.5 positions to be filled by Indians, then 0.5 positions times 30 percent [30 percent is the target of females] equals 0.1 Indian females and that is rounded off to zero”.

    It continues: “But here are only five available positions. 0.125 could go to Indians times 30 percent gender allocation means 0.037 could be allocated to Indian females and that is rounded off to zero.”

    Indian females on level 14 were ideal because there were none and the ideal was zero, the colonel explained. “There was one Indian male on level 14, but, there ought to be none.” Nothing more needs to be written about the sheer absurdity of affirmative action policy than that.”

    - See more at: http://www.unpo.org/article/16253#sthash.A1Lob4t2.dpuf

  • Ozoneblue

    Peter
    August 13, 2013 at 7:26 am

    “Oh Gosh Chaps, finally, he speaks………it is the ‘usual suspects’ who are to blame…….”

    Tony Leon made a rather interesting comment the other day – with regards to the likes of De Vos and Mogoeng.

    “Everyone had a choice in how to take on apartheid, which Mogoeng claims opponents of the JSC are determined to revive. Budlender, and other candidates overlooked for judicial office, such as Clive Plasket, Jeremy Gauntlett, Halton Cheadle and Willem van der Linde, were in the trenches of the struggle. Mogoeng, by contrast, was a prosecutor in Bophuthatswana. By casting the debate in a racial mode, Mogoeng obviates the question of individual choice and reduces it to one about race. Perhaps in warning about the danger of apartheid returning, he was indeed correct.”

    http://tonyleonblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/transformation-debate-inhabits-parallel.html

    So Mogoeng, De Vos – both collaborators and beneficiaries of the Apartheid system with little qualms of perpetuating a new sort of apartheid/racism based on less tangible but demographically demarcated bantustans.

  • Maggs Naidu – Iyoh Rama, now WHITE people are gonna be more pissed with Pierre! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hmmm!

  • Vuyani Ngalwana

    Pierre this is a most sober erudition on the subject, if you don’t mind my saying so. I could say much more but I fear a puerile complaint to the Bar council for ridiculing a colleague in public. Van Heerden and Bato Star put matters beyond doubt about the constitutional legitimacy of affirmative action. Both cases are more than 9 years old! Yet here we are still launching impeachment proceedings against people who say marginally little more than what the Constitution demands (in sections 1, 7, 9(2), 174(2) & 195(1)) and the Concourt has endorsed. The HSF v JSC case will hopefully air matters a bit and I can’t wait (with a gaggle of law students) to stick my boot up the posterior of that challenge on affirmative action.

  • Ozoneblue

    Vuyani Ngalwana
    August 13, 2013 at 8:51 am

    “Van Heerden and Bato Star put matters beyond doubt about the constitutional legitimacy of affirmative action. Both cases are more than 9 years old! Yet here we are still launching impeachment proceedings against people who say marginally little more than what the Constitution demands (in sections 1, 7, 9(2), 174(2) & 195(1)) and the Concourt has endorsed.”

    Correct – 9 years old.

    AA/BEE policies of more than 20 years old now that have succeeded in establishing a wealthy (majority) black middle class and have broadly speaking transformed South Africa in your narrow racial terms. However if you think the Constitution is a blueprint to perpetuate racism until kingdom comes in the name of “transformation” or to “assert your racial identity” as your Apartheid puppet friends PdV puts it – then you are just plainly wrong.

  • Padda

    “He or she eschews emotional language and couches trenchant criticism in a diplomatic manner”

    -> Are you, then, not a wise judge? You know – referring to people as frothing around the mouth and spouting and all that.

    You must be very unwise.

  • Mike

    @PDV – Why did SAA do an about turn of promoting junior black pilots as captains over white pilots who had double the flying time ?
    The answer PDV lies with the Aviation Authorities in Europe and the USA who made it quite clear to SAA that they would be banned from flying into their airspace if that was to happen.
    So when we speak about transformation PDV maybe, just maybe, you should understand that SA is part of a global village instead of subscribing to the flat earth society in the belief that SA is an economic island.
    Transformation is a bullshit storey about promoting blacks into positions that they simply do not deserve.
    Want some more examples ? look no further than the disgrace that the NPA is, some more examples , look at Health workers ie those black nurses who will leave a patient that is bleeding simply because it is tea time.
    Stop bullshitting yourself PDV we have enough examples of how transformation has led to the destruction of this countries infrastructure.

  • vuyani ngalwana

    These ad hominem attacks on Pierre hardly advance the debate on affirmative action. May I ask (dare I ask) people to focus on kicking the ball and leave the man alone. This is not rugby. You do not tackle the man. You kick the ball. Affirmative action does not countenance the appointment of unqualified people (by reason only of their race or gender) above qualified people of a male or white appearance.

    If people care to read the EEA (which give content to s 9(2) of the Constitution) it talks about the advancement of “suitably qualified people from designated groups”. A pilot (or trainee pilot) is not incompetent by reason only of his or her being black. Similarly, he or she is not automatically competent by reason only of his or her being a white male.

    I think we should rid ourselves of this stereotypical thinking and deal with the facts and merits of an argument. The fact is that affirmative action is a constitutionally legitimate means of redressing past imbalances wrought by apartheid (see s 9(2), 174(2), 195(1)(i) of the Constitution).

    The fact is that the Concourt has acknowledged this in at least 2 judgments (Bato Star at paras [75] to [76] and Van Heerden at paras [30] to [31]).

    The fact is that black people have been unfairly discriminated against (and still experience the effects of that unfair discrimination) under apartheid.

    The fact is that affirmative action (as the Concourt has pointedly said in Van Heerden) is not “reverse discrimination”.

    The fact is that (as the Concourt has said in Bato Star) restitutionary measures “will inevitably affect some members of the society adversely, particularly those coming from the previously advantaged communities”, and that “it may well be that other considerations may have to yield in favour of achieving the goals we fashioned for ourselves in the Constitution”.

    Please stop attacking Pierre. Attack his argument with relevant facts, proper application of law and legal principle, and sober reasoning.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Pierre

    “the Institute of Accountability [has] a gaggle of white men and women are associated with it”

    Pierre is right. I only wish he would come right out and say it like it is: the so-called “institute” is a RACIST organisation which has identified itself with a RACIST plot to undermine our Chief Justice. (Come to think of it, it is also a SATANIC plot, insofar as the Chief Justice was designated by GOD HIMSELF!)

    Thanks.

  • Pierre De Vos

    First, I am not a judge.

    Second, it would really advance the debate if people were better informed – about South African jurisprudence and jurisprudence in foreign jurisdictions as well as international human rights law jurisprudence. Read a few judgments on equality and affirmative action from the Supreme Court of Canada. read the General Comments on Equality by UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Read some judgments by the European Court of Human Rights. Read some theoretical stuff by mainstream academics like Ronald Dworkin on affirmative action. In the absence of at least a basic knowledge of the equality legal landscape nationally and internationally, we are stuck with people restating, like a stuck record, their own unexamined and uninformed assumptions – as if these are universally true and accepted by all.

  • Maggs Naidu

    vuyani ngalwana

    August 13, 2013 at 11:44 am

    “Please stop attacking Pierre. Attack his argument with relevant facts, proper application of law and legal principle, and sober reasoning”

    Check your assumptions!

  • Ozoneblue

    vuyani ngalwana
    August 13, 2013 at 11:44 am

    “The fact is that affirmative action is a constitutionally legitimate means of redressing past imbalances wrought by apartheid (see s 9(2), 174(2), 195(1)(i) of the Constitution).”

    So what is the rationale then for continued affirmative action in the state and public sector which the Minister Lindiwe Sisulu jsut recently acknowledged has been transformed. What is the purpose of continued affirmative action amongst working and lower-middle class sectors that latest EE stats showed have also been transformed.

    Could it just be that AA has become a political tool to secure the vote?

  • Ozoneblue

    Pierre De Vos
    August 13, 2013 at 11:51 am

    Correct. So please do us all a favour and resign from your job, make place for a suitably qualified black women who didn’t study at Stellenbosch during all those Apartheid years. You are one of the most unprincipled and hypocritical opportunists who I have ever come across and you should therefore not be surprised when nobody takes your self-serving and obviously dominant political establishment sponsored attacks on “White privilege” seriously.

  • vuyani ngalwana

    @ Ozoneblue: No. I think read up a bit on these matters and I’m sure you’ll understand.

  • Ozoneblue

    vuyani ngalwana
    August 13, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    So are you denying now that major sectors of our public and private societies have already been transformed and/or that AA/BEE is in fact a political tool to secure the vote from those who stand to benefit the most from it.

    Much like the Nats maintained political control because their racial policies benefited White people?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Vuyani

    “I can’t wait (with a gaggle of law students) to stick my boot up the posterior of that challenge on affirmative action.”

    With respect, Vuyani, this is neither the time nor the place to ventilate bizarre (and frankly, COLONIAL), gaggling fantasies re the appropriate penalty for the RACISTS amongst us. Let’s stick with sober jurisprudence here!

    Thanks.

  • Graham

    Ya Pierre. It must really irk you to be defending this Mogoeng Ditto dude whom, as a Zuma appointee, you know couldn’t be more unsuited for any judicial position, let alone that of chief justice. Your defence of the blatantly racist utterances of Mogoeng (repeat again) to a race-based outfit (the BLA) speaks volumes about your own personal biases, your specious interpretation of constitutional principles, and what looks suspiciously like white self-loathing. Yet you defend this judicial dilettante simply to have a go at Hoffman who is not only an honourable man but, as a Senior Counsel, could teach you quite a bit about the law. That he has previously debunked your cavalier and cowboy interpretations of our law is the most likely reason for your blatant dislike of him and what he stands for.
    Please try and up your act with proper and reasoned commentary; not emotional, race-baiting invective.

  • Maggs Naidu – Iyoh Rama, now WHITE people are gonna be more pissed with Pierre! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Graham
    August 13, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Graham,

    “Please try and up your act with proper and reasoned commentary; not emotional, race-baiting invective.”

    hehehehe.

    You’ve done an exemplary job yourself, ne!

  • spoiler

    Vuyani it looks as if you’d like the commentators on this blog to behave better towards Pierre than our esteemed CJ is capable of when in front of the right audience. Is CJ M squared a politician or a judge? He sounds like the fomer to me. What do you think Pious Langa would have said on the subject? I am embarassed to have MM as our CJ.

  • Maggs Naidu – Iyoh Rama, now WHITE people are gonna be more pissed with Pierre! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    spoiler
    August 13, 2013 at 13:10 pm

    Spoiler,

    “Pious Langa”

    Mogoeng is PIOUS.

    Langa is dead.

  • terence grant

    I was saddened to hear in that Rape Crisis Clinic is about to close its doors due to a shortage of funds and thought readers might be interested to hear that tiny table-tennis receives on a national level approximatelyR2m per year from Lotto(which has South African TableTennis Board Vice-President ,Hajera Hajee,as Head of its National Distribution Committee (http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article1044538.ece/Lotto-bosses-tata-ma-chance )and on a local level in WP routinely receives substantial funding from the Western Cape Government(which has Brent Walters -an ex-member of Liv-ken table-tennis club -as Head of the Department of Cultural Affairs and Sport)and the City of Cape Town(which has Cheryl Walters -also an ex Liv-ken player and Brett Walters sister- as Director of Planning and Building)Unfortunately,all this money has led to table-tennis shrinking dramatically -at least in WP- for it is no longer dependent on revenue from clubs and players and no longer needs private sponsorship or media coverage and, in addition,fully understands/seems to fear that an increase in the number of players and clubs would lead to increased competition between administrators for the right to accompany players on overseas tours etcetera and also could result in their sons,daughters and proteges losing out on overseas tours etcetera .
    On this point I note the following :
    A)That the nephew of the current chairman of WP has in recent years been on tour to Sweden,Nigeria,Tunisia,Brazil,China,Egypt ,France and Germany,with his grandfather -the father of the chairman of WP- accompanying him on the trip to France and Germany as manager/coach.
    Although all of the above-mentioned trips were sponsored by Butterfly – an international manufacturer of table-tennis equipment that sponsors the chairmans nephew in his private capacity- the usual sponsor for trips by the SA team-which recently competed in the Commonwealth Championships and often goes overseas- is Lotto or the Department of Sport( the tax-payer)
    http://152.111.1.87/argief/berigte/dieburger/2010/03/30/PQ/24/bgcody-QR.html
    C)That WP ‘s leading male player prior to the advent of non-racial sport/amalgamation ,Springbok and WP captain Alan Chiat, won the UCT Sportsman of the year award several years in a row,was nominated several times as SA Sportsman of the Year and won the SA Masters championships several years in succession. He retired in protest at being deprived of the opportunity to defend his Masters -title with WP arguing that it had been incumbent on him to submit an entry form and that he had failed to do so.
    D)ThatWP’s leading female player prior to amalgamation , Surita Odendaal(later ranked number-one in Africa), retired in protest after ex-SACOS champion Cheryl Roberts,who was significantly weaker,was sent to the Olympics ahead of her. Although the waters are muddy with regard to who exactly was most to blame for Surita being left out, it seems clear that Surita believed that she had no future in the game(that she would in future be sidelined in favour of younger players and players who were likely to become involved in coaching others etc. Being the best is often not good enough ).
    E)Prior to amalgamation WP’s larger local tournaments routinely received funding from heavyweight sponsors like Norwich Union and extensive coverage from mainstream newpapers. In addition,its league-matches were sponsored by Valley Wines with Argus reporting on these league-matches on a weekly basis(I sometimes stood in for the regular scribe,Dr David Ticktin,and, as WP tournament -organiser and chairman of Glen(where many finals and functions were held) became quite friendly with Argus theatre -critic,Glynn Spaans who doubled as a table-tennis reporter).
    F)Prior to amalgamation all of WP’s major tournaments were held at UCT but for more than a decade have been held in Belhar which has a high crime-rate and is not centrally situated ,thereby rendering it thoroughly unsuitable as the home of non-racial table-tennis.
    G)There currently are fewer than 10 whites playing league in WP,with only one white -born in Greece – playing premier league and only two whites -both over the age of 65- playing first league. Both of these first-league players play for Goodwood,which is the only so-called white club that has not closed(Camps Bay,Glen,Gardens, Gordons ,V.O.B, Bergvliet ,Fish Hoek, Sanlam ,Durbanville , Eskom and Northerns-Parow have closed with UCT and St Giles theoretically still open but not playing league).
    WP, which prior to amalgamation sometimes had as many as 10 leagues(Ie,10 White leagues), is now down to 6 leagues!

    H)In 1997 several clubs -including the club where I was a member,Silverstar(a so-called Coloured club)- failed to submit their league entries by the due date which resulted in them being left out of league and closing their doors permanently .The league-fixtures were later amended to include Silverstar after I-the newly-elected chairman – persuaded the WP committee that it would be in the interests of the game to ignore the constitutional prohibition on accepting late entries. Interestingly, the committee at the registration meeting asked the delegates whether it should ignore the constitutional prohibition on accepting late entries and the delegates voted that it should not(that WP should indeed leave these clubs out as punishment for ”inconveniencing WP/messing everyone around”).
    G)Shortly after being elected as chairman of Silverstar I was co-opted onto the organising-committee for the SA Open (which was run by myself and a member of the WP committee and -incidently- covered by Michael Doman of Cape Argus) Several weeks later I retired in a huff as an administrator after trying to explain how things should be done and being asked by the then chairman of WP(Hasie Ishmael)who also chairs Liv-ken-whether the way I wanted things to be done represented the way things used to be done when I was still white/after receiving what I perceived as a racial slight from the then chairman of WP( Hasie Ishmael)who also chairs/ed Liv- Ken table-tennis club.
    H)I next resurfaced as an administrator at the 2005 AGM (as a representative of Goodwood ,due to the closure of my previous club Silverstar)and was shocked to hear that WP did not intend -due to a shortage of funds- to send a men ‘s B team to the SA Open. This led me to point out, inter alia ,the following:
    1)That the four members of WP B are routinely ranked in the top ten in the country.
    2)That WP B routinely finished in second spot behind WP A and routinely thrashed the 3rd placed team by a large margin,that the SA Open would therefore be a joke without the participation of WP B.
    3)That I as manager of WP had single-handedly taken approximately 20 juniors away to Benoni in 1988; that it therefore was absurd to argue that each team had to have its own manager and coach;that a far better idea would be to get rid of 3 of the administrators and to use the money that would have been spent on these 3 administrators to send a b-team(which traditionally consists of 3 members plus a reserve, but does not have to have a reserve).
    Fortunately,everyone in the meeting seemed to agree with me and I later in the meeting was elected onto a fund-raising sub-committee (which due to the fact that WP often receives funds for specific purposes still plays an important role).
    Unfortunately,I was not invited to attend any of these subcommittee meetings which convinced me/reinforced the long-held belief that no-one wanted me around;that I no longer had a role to play in table-tennis.
    Terence Shelton
    Woodstock Upper.
    Ex-WP tournament-organiser,ex-manager of WP and ex-convenor of WP ‘s umpiring and disciplinary subcommittees.

  • Ozoneblue

    Graham
    August 13, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    “Please try and up your act with proper and reasoned commentary; not emotional, race-baiting invective.”

    Well he did indirectly refer to him as a pig, didn’t he.

    Which is quite ironic given that our White liberals favourite African hero Pres Robert Mugabe refers to gays and lesbians as pigs and dogs that deserve to be decapitated: those whitish gays and lesbians who survived the “indigenization” I assume.

  • Zoo Keeper

    The CJ is a fan of absolute racial representivity.

    What this means, as opposed to the more nuanced and inclusive version by Langa, is that we count the beans.

    If the population is divided into demographic percentages, then representivity must follow the census. i.e 79% of positions must be held by blacks. Must. It is then broken down into gender. Of that 79%, 52% must be black women and 48% must be black men.

    Minorities cannot be represented in percentages greater than their demographic.

    So whites can only ever hold 9% of positions, of which 52% of that 9% must be white women, and 48% white men. And so on for coloureds, Indians and Chinese.

    So what you end up with is not the weighing of candidates and giving a preference, but simple racial mathematics.

    That is the CJ’s position. Representivity trumps all other considerations. This is pure racial discrimination.

    So Professor. You should check the demographics of law professors and see if there are too many white males. If more than 4% of the positions are held by white males, then it must result in the dismissal of white males and replacement with other demographic representatives.

    Do the maths Professor De Vos. If more than 4% of law professorships are held by white males you must set the example. You must resign from your publicly funded position because white males are over-represented in law. You will be replaced by somebody else, when somebody becomes available (merit is not really a consideration) and until then your seat will remain vacant.

    Having sex with black men does not make you black – so man up and put your money where your mouth is.

  • Gwebecimele

    De Vos, Better not to roll around in the mud with the pigs

  • Ozoneblue

    Zoo Keeper
    August 13, 2013 at 13:46 pm

    “If the population is divided into demographic percentages, then representivity must follow the census. i.e 79% of positions must be held by blacks. Must. It is then broken down into gender. Of that 79%, 52% must be black women and 48% must be black men.”

    I fact there should be at least 20 law professors at UCT to justify ONE White male. Same arithmetic used in the recent SAA pilot cadet programme with ZERO quota for White males.

    But perhaps if you are an academic and if you have no spine you count for half a man?

  • joeslis

    @ Maggs

    Mogoeng² is pious; Langa is dead. (‘Pius’, by the way, is Latin for ‘pious’).

    And discrimination is what Christians do best!

  • joeslis

    @ Pierre

    “That is why we choose the side of the chief justice …”

    Who’s “we”?

  • Mau

    I can’t help but feel that Mr Mngxitama is Mr De Vos’ alter ego..

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-08-11-andile-mngxitama-decolonising-the-african-queer-movement

    Celebrations of Zanu-PF’s massive parliamentary and presidential victory have been marred by homophobia within the most revolutionary party in Zimbabwe. This presents us with the question of how we can decolonise our societies and liberate ourselves from all forms of oppression, including on the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender and Intersexed Community (LGBTI) issue.

    This concern is no longer a marginal one because often the LGBTI struggle is hijacked by pro-colonial white supremacists. This is so primarily because the LGBTI struggle lacks a thorough anti-colonial ideological framework.

    There is little doubt in the imagination of most black nationalists who see colonialism and white supremacy as the defining questions, even in the 21st century, that Zimbabwe is the most advanced in the fight for black liberation. Decolonisation is essentially a land issue, where the native takes back the land and the white settler is rendered superfluous or flees to their mother country. Only upon this event can a new relationship emerge among the people, one that is no longer defined by the indignity of colonial oppression. There is no doubt that Zimbabwe has indeed resolved the land question under the leadership of President Mugabe and Zanu-PF. However, both social liberation and the deepening of democratisation of the economy must still be advanced.

    It can be said that with the indigenisation process currently under way in Zimbabwe, where the government compels all major companies to shed 51% of their ownership to Zimbabweans, the struggle on the economic plain is also at an advanced stage. It’s not an easy matter that such global companies as Anglo-American have indeed signed away 51% of its platinum mines in Zimbabwe. Again Zanu-PF has to be commended for designing an ownership formula that is much more advanced and more broad-based than South Africa’s elite-benefiting BEE programme. In Zimbabwe the expropriated 51% is distributed as follows; 10% to workers, 10% to the local mining community, 10% is to a BEE-type consortia and the state takes 21% into a national fund. The key is that ordinary Zimbabweans benefit directly and severally.

    The question is how, then, within this reality of impressive decolonisation, do we confront the problem of homophobia? What has happened up until now is that the LGBTI movement has failed to raise the issue of sexuality politics as central to decolonisation. Because the LGBTI movement lacks a radical anti-colonial framework, often its concerns have been hijacked by the West to attack the decolonisation programme in Zimbabwe. It must worry us all that those who proclaim solidarity with the LGBTI struggles from Europe and the US are the same people who reject decolonisation and hate Mugabe for his anti-colonial efforts. It can be said therefore, that Zanu-PF’s homophobia has been used by colonial forces to attack a revolutionary programme.

  • joeslis

    @ Ozoneblue

    Check out the list of UCT Faculty of Law staff.

    See the gaggle of WHITIST men and women associated with it.

  • Ozoneblue

    Mau
    August 13, 2013 at 14:51 pm

    “I can’t help but feel that Mr Mngxitama is Mr De Vos’ alter ego..

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-08-11-andile-mngxitama-decolonising-the-african-queer-movement‘”

    “Decolonisation is essentially a land issue, where the native takes back the land and the white settler is rendered superfluous or flees to their mother country.”

    Thanks Mau. This stood out for me.

    The rest of is bizarre, confused, racist, pseudo-revolutionary bullshit as only intellectual inadequate delinquent like Mngxitama/Malema can manage.

    The only good thing about this black fascist type is that they also hate White liberals – so we should cheer them on on that front, let them kick the shit out of the lot of them while we understand that sometimes the enemy of our enemy is in fact our friend.

    For the time being at least.

  • Gwebecimele

    Cape Town, if you can’t beat them, join them.

    “Unfortunately, the metropolitan municipalities faltered in their crucial role of providing exemplary leadership to smaller municipalities, as none of the eight metros obtained a clean audit,” said Nombembe

  • Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    August 13, 2013 at 15:17 pm

    Who gives a fuck. I’m convinced you can always find a white man to blame.

  • Maggs Naidu – Iyoh Rama, now WHITE people are gonna be more pissed with Pierre! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    August 13, 2013 at 15:29 pm

    OB,

    “Who gives a fuck.”

    Lolly Jackson?

    Not sure his were out of friendship though – perhaps credit cards or cash?

  • Maggs Naidu – Iyoh Rama, now WHITE people are gonna be more pissed with Pierre! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hey guess what everyone?

    There’s a “White haven” in Australia!

    https://twitter.com/StoryOfEarth/status/367034272625881088/photo/1

  • http://www.marknelza.blogspot.com Mark Nel

    De Vos, why don’t you give up your privileged academic position so that a deserving black person can take it up. Not only are you a white Afrikaner, I understand that your father was also an apartheid era policeman. If this is true, your education at school, as well as possibly your first or more degrees, would have been funded directly by money that was specifically set aside to pay to ensure that apartheid was enforced. It is therefore surely completely untenable, if this is indeed true, that you continue to use your education, which was funded so directly by the apartheid system, to hold onto your current academic position and deprive deserving black persons of the position. Since you are so outspoken about white privilege in this country, you of all people should lead by example. Or are you just being vocal because it is your shrewdly designed technique to protect your own white Afrikaner interest in your current academic position and financial well being?

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    What Prof doesn’t get is that the colour of his skin determines his future.

    He is white and he must be discriminated against.

    He is a beneficiary of Apartheid and must give up his house and assets to black people.

    He must take early retirement from his seat to make way for a black person.

    He does not understand that sympathizing with black nationalists and having sex with black men does not make him black, and does not excuse him sympathy.

    He has to share the discrimination with his fellow whites. He can despise his fellow whites, but he must still share their pain.

    I see Mngxitama’s piece of racist drivel has been posted above.

    Decolonization means the eradication of non-blacks from Africa. This means the Professor is exactly what Mngxitama rails against – a white man who has an opinion on black LGBTI must be eradicated. The fact he has sex with black men makes him even worse as he is colonizing his black lover and is the enemy because he is white. in fact, decolonization means eradicating non-blacks from Africa.

    By his rationale, coloureds are inherently colonized as the products of inter-racial “discourse” – I suppose they face the cattle-trucks too.

  • Ze Philosopher

    Having sex with a black man doesn’t feature anywhere in Pierre’s article. Therefore it shows how narrow minded some of you are with your perceived righteousness. Fact is, Paul Hoffman SC has a bone to pick with blacks. Look no further than his cry foul holly than grain response to Adv Simba’s complain about briefing patterns. His institute for accountability is nothing more than a shield to pursue his White Racist propaganda. As much as I’m not a fan of CJ Mogoeng, he was within his rights to deliver that speech. It doesn’t matter what lot of you think about transformation but truth is we need it to redress the imbalances of the past, to rid our society of power mongers, to set the record that just because you’re Senior Counsel doesn’t make you better than the rest of us. Tswalela banneng gaene go farela.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebe

    This DA “coconut” guy (see link below) claims that CT is the only metro in the country with unqualified audits over the past 5 years. Please tell me he is lying!

    Thanks.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654/page71654?oid=397053&sn=Detail&pid=71654

  • vuyani ngalwana

    Yho! If the level of response to this blog piece is any indication, South Africa is in trouble. Clearly Madiba’s reconciliation has not taken root. I fear for the cerebral aptitude of the kids whose fathers and mothers it is who post the sort of things I have read in these comments. Kusekud’engqinibeni. inene le.

  • Heywood Jubleauxme

    The truth of the matter is: not even an impeachable offence is enough to get Moegoeng² impeached. Remember what happened to John Hlope? No surprise there, since the majority of JSC members are political appointees.
    This entire debate about “transformation” is just a convenient diversion. The ruling party is unapologetic about its desire to subjugate the judiciary. Don’t lose sight of the fact that Moegoeng² is plugged into that equation. It frightens me to see how easily the readers of this blog are side-tracked by a bloody agent (read Pierre).
    I must commend the Institute of Accountability for taking/wasting valuable time to illustrate how ill-suited Moegoeng² is to the position that he holds.

  • Ozoneblue

    vuyani ngalwana
    August 13, 2013 at 18:51 pm

    Stop talking kak. Answer my question.

  • Ozoneblue

    Ze Philosopher
    August 13, 2013 at 18:10 pm

    Those imbalances have been addressed through 20 years of race-based AA and BEE. Where does it stop?

  • Ozoneblue

    Dinga Rammy Nkhwashu

    Malema syndrome. I’m so sick and tired of greedy racist Blacks milking the system for every cents they can steal while they scream “white privilege”.

    And nobody is supposed to notice ? – LOL.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654/page71619?oid=398049&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Maggs Naidu – Iyoh Rama, now WHITE people are gonna be more pissed with Pierre! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Pierre De Vos
    August 13, 2013 at 11:51 am

    “it would really advance the debate if people were better informed”

    You must be new around here.

    Those of us who have been reading these blogs and commenting know that advancing the debate is rarely a consideration.

    Attack or defend the status quo – depending on which side of the transformation project one sits will determine what is the status quo, what should be attacked and what needs to be defended.

    Sort of like Paul Hoffman whose Institute for Accountability will try its damnedest to defend thosee gains of democracy which advance the interests of those who benefited from (fit word in here which loosely translated equates to crime against humanity).

    If anyone has come across Hoffman making an active intervention to contribute meaningfully to right the wrongs of (that word again) with pointed reference to the legal profession do share.

    Be that as it may, Mogoeng was aware at the time that he contributed to the undermining of Moseneke, that he was a “political appointee”, deployed for what many suspect are nefarious reasons. Any and all of his actions are going to be under extreme scrutiny – he is not going to get the kind of support from a range of people who would ordinarily intervene and tell Hoffman and his lot where to jump.

    But Hoffman is going to lose on this matter and he will, rightly or rightly, forever be the guy who lead the march to undermine the efforts of our prophet-wielding, ghost-invoking Chief Justice to bring about a semblance of race and gender equability in our courts.

    On the other hand there will the tide of those who will defend with all their words, insults, untruths and more, the ill-gotten gains.

    So as a newbee around these parts, your hoping that the debate will be advanced through sound, well-informed, well-reasoned commentary is wishful thinking at best.

    But stick around – you’ll get used to it in time. The Freedom Charter is wrong – there will be no “peace and friendship”.

    As Dworky will note, you’re young and have a lot to learn.

  • Ozoneblue

    He he. When we run out of steam the old “crimes against humanity” cold-war hyperbole/propaganda cause we have nothing left but scraping the bottom of the barrel.

    The very same people who now support a murderous capitalist empire with a BLACK president who use automated killing machines called “drones” to eradicate unwanted Muslim families or “terrorists” and are responsible for unspeakable human rights atrocities at places like Guantanamo Bay detention camp.

    “Crimes against humanity” – indeed.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “If anyone has come across Hoffman making an active intervention to contribute meaningfully to right the wrongs of (that word again) with pointed reference to the legal profession do share.”

    With respect, Hoffman’s so-called “Institute” claims to have been involved in some ridiculous legal effort to launch a class action against the alleged bread cartel that supposedly pushed the bread price up. (See link below.)

    But I suspect this is a just a cover for the PIGGISH/WHITIST conspiracy against our GOD-ORDAINED CJ!

    Thanks.

    http://www.ifaisa.org/Casting_bread_upon_the_water.html

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, whilst I am no bible-thumping evangelist, I say that it is a porcine abomination for anyone to disrespect the sovereign will of GOD by impeaching a bald man that He has sanctioned as the leader of our judiciary!

    WDYTT?

  • Maggs Naidu – Hoffman fought Apatheid!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    August 13, 2013 at 22:18 pm

    Dworky – so Hoffman said “let them eat BREAD”!

    He’s not a racist!

  • Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Hoffman fought Apatheid!
    August 13, 2013 at 23:10 pm

    hey maggs. I never thought Hoffman fought Aparthied. Unlike liewe Pierrrietjie who I never knew his dad was also an APARTHEID POLICEMAN although I knew about the immense indulgence in WHITE PRIVILEGE at Stellenbosch/Harvard education. And until now It never occurred to me that Mogoeng Mogoeng was also an APARTHEID COLLABORATOR and therefore also a beneficiary of WHITE PRIVILEGE just like I never knew our former UNDEAD police commissioner Jackie Selebi is/was a friend of the Mafia !

    “Constitutional Court Judge Mogoeng Mogoeng who is vying for the position of Chief Justice says he was not a puppet of the Bantustan regime of the former Bophuthatswana government. He told the JSC that he was not apologetic for the fact that his university studies were financed by the then Bophuthatswana government and for having served the Bophuthatswana government as a prosecutor.”

    http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/7f0d55804831fb5487ceff40c7a3fa19/Mogoeng-not-a-puppet-of-former-Bophuthatswana-government-2011090

    But I guess we all learn new things every day.

  • A citizen

    This is perhaps the most intellectually dishonest ad hominem attack I have read for a while.

    Pierre has completely and deliberately mischaracterised the nature of the complaint to the JSC. The underlying debate has nothing to do with race but with the devastating effect that the political composition of the JSC has had on the judiciary.

    Pierre has probably never appeared in a courtroom in his life but the overwhelming mood of those who practice in the courts is one of desperate despondency. It is not unusual to come across judges (black and white) who have little working knowledge of the law and others whose chief characteristic is their laziness. It is no longer possible to give clients any clients of reliable advice on their prospects of success when the system may throw up an experienced attorney or senior counsel with years of litigation
    experience or just as likely an attorney from the platteland who had a conveyancing practice or a junior advocate who after ten years of unsuccessful practice decided he would rather have the benefits of lifelong employment and pension.

    In respect of the specifics of the complaint all would be best served by reading the the complaint itself to see just how wrong Pierre has got it. In brief the Helen Suzman foundation has instituted an application in which it seeks to have determined what the correct balance between competency and affirmative action is and how should be applied by the JSC when making judicial appointments. This is a proper and valid question to be asked.

    I would suggest that those without a legal background turn first to Professor’s George Devenish useful commentary on what was wrong with the Chief Justice’s speech.

    http://www.ifaisa.org/Prof_George_Devenish_letter_to_the_Chief_Justice.html

    The following passage from Devenish’s commentary is apposite. Race is merely mud to be thrown when the real issue is about the independence of those who are selected.

    “Furthermore, it is also alleged, by the detractors of the JSC, that the Commission does not merely discriminate against white male applicants, but also against any boldly independent minded applicant jurists, black or white, male or female, who would act fearlessly in interpreting and applying the provisions of the Constitution and the Bill of rights, and thereby poses a threat to the executive regardless of any consequences.

    In his address the Chief Justice declared: “We must use all available avenues to expose this retrogressive campaign and the danger it poses to nation-building. But be warned, that engagement is not for the faint-hearted. Be ready to be trashed by a well co-ordinated network of entities often pretending to be working in isolation.”

    In making this statement, the Chief Justice has with unrestrained and categorical language declared his allegiance with and support for the JSC, against its detractors, who are in the process of challenging the manner in which this Commission recommends appointments to the Bench.”

    There are numerous examples of independently minded candidates who have a history of the serving the country and whose commitment to the constitution is unquestioned but who have been rejected by the JSC. They have been turned down, in a wholly flawed, opaque and profoundly politically influenced process because it is well known that their independence would not serve the interests of the government.

    It is in the country’s interest that the manner and basis on which the JSC makes its appointment is understood by all and is rational and justifiable. This is not the case with the way the JSC is presently constituted.

    Those who are interested further should see the details of complaint itself.

    http://www.ifaisa.org/current_affairs/Complaint_document_marked_RPH.pdf

    http://www.ifaisa.org/current_affairs/Affidavit_supporting_the_complaints.pdf

    In respect of Paul Hoffman himself, with whom I have had the privilege of working, I should say the following – he is a man of impeccable integrity and no racist or supporter of white privilege. He does not deserve this shrill, whining and defamatory harangue. I think Paul’s record as a constitutional democrat speaks for itself. He was a successful senior counsel, and acting Judge who left the bar to found the Institute for Accountability because he wanted a better South Africa where government and business are accountable to the people. I can think of very people who have given up very successful careers to found an NGO in the service of the country.

    He is one of the brains behind Glenister v President of the RSA (the challenge to the government’s political interference with the Hawks ), Crawford-Browne v President of the RSA (the reason we have an inquiry into the arms deal at all), and most recently Mukaddam v Pioneer Foods (Pty) Ltd, a class action concerning the fixing of bread prices. The Institute for Accountability is the sole public interest representative at the Arms Procurement Commission. Paul has mostly single handedly since 2009 cajoled and inspired a large team of attorneys and counsel to act pro bono in the interests
    of their country to see that the greatest waste of public funds in the last 20 years is not allowed to be hidden away.

    You owe him an apology Pierre.

  • Ze Philosopher

    @ A Citizen, Paul Hoffman SC isn’t the best thing since sliced bread let alone a Counsel I would look up to. Fact is, he’s privileged no matter how you wanna portray him, still stuck in the past, but pained by the fact status quo have changed. Have asked yourself this simple question, What would he be if he was subjected to the same treatment as Duma Nokwe whom was forced to practice in a toilet? Did he take on the Apartheid government when it was our backs against the wall? @ Ozoneblue, it will stop when blacks are able to earn like whites, when we stop living in dilapidated shacks, when Whites like Hoffman SC take on the led DA Western Cape to do away with the bucket system. I could careless about all this Ad hominem attacks on Pierre’s sexual orientation. Fact is, Helen Suzman Foundation and Institute for Accountability still have the racist thinking that us blacks aren’t worthy, that we are corrupt, that we are lazy. Take off your thinking cap and take notice, there was nothing honourable about Apartheid government killing blacks, there was nothing honourable about whites stealing our land, treating us like slaves. Get over yourself and cherish the change. Better yet, you can always go back to where your great-great grandfathers came from.

  • Maggs Naidu – Iyoh Rama, now WHITE people are gonna be more pissed with Pierre! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    A citizen
    August 14, 2013 at 6:10 am

    Hey A Citizen,

    “It is not unusual to come across judges who have little working knowledge of the law and others whose chief characteristic is their laziness.”

    Perhaps that is true – do share when it was different?

    Isn’t that the reason why there are several tiers with more judges on the bench as it goes higher?

  • mike

    It appears that the Constitution is only valid for black South Africans.

    Challenging the institutional racism implemented by the ANC is long overdue…

  • Ze Philosopher

    “It appears that the Constitution is only valid for black South Africans” @ Mike, isn’t Affirmative Action constitutional or your like the lazy judges whom A Citizen was referring to? Maybe the only thing that’s overdue is Blacks hating on Whites like Mugabe.

  • Mau

    vuyani ngalwana

    August 13, 2013 at 18:51 pm
    Yho! If the level of response to this blog piece is any indication, South Africa is in trouble. Clearly Madiba’s reconciliation has not taken root.

    Vuyani is right. Madiba’s reconciliation has been replaced by revenge by our blackish cousins. So we have new laws to exclude some of us by the colour of our skin. You need to be of a certain colour to get business or to access funding and it certainly helps to be of a certain colour if you apply for a job.

    It all comes down to where we each as individuals are, but consider for a moment you were “lucky” enough to be a middle aged WHITISH male in South Africa and you will note it is not uncommon these days as a white man to be told:

    “Get over yourself and cherish the change. Better yet, you can always go back to where your great-great grandfathers came from.”

    or how about:

    ““Decolonisation is essentially a land issue, where the native takes back the land and the white settler is rendered superfluous or flees to their mother country.”

    Of course if you are a white male and have an interest in something working that is not, you should not say or do anything. Since you are whitish you are racist. Mr Hoffman is a good example?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Ze Philosopher

    Blacks can earn like whites, there are no impediments – in fact there is exactly the opposite.

    Blacks face absolutely no impediments to joining in any economic activity.

    The government is intent on legislating away competition and ensuring whites cannot compete.

    Just like everyone else, they face constraints of education and the struggle of beginning something. But that is not a unique aspect and is faced by everyone except a teeny tiny fraction of the population.

    Stop complaining. Look in the mirror – there you will see the only person who can help you.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    mike
    August 14, 2013 at 8:42 am

    Hey Mike,

    “It appears that the Constitution is only valid for black South Africans.”

    That’s pretty smart of you to have picked that up Mike.

    Apparently the official version of our constitution which is kept under lock and key in secret, says in the preamble “Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity BUT NOT WHITE PEOPLE!

  • Ozoneblue

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 8:05 am

    “Better yet, you can always go back to where your great-great grandfathers came from.”

    ZP. Noted for future reference. These thinly veiled and persistent threats of genocide/ethnic cleansing unless we capitulated and embrace your new demographic aparthied system that comes straight from the ANC’s social engineering blueprint for SA you call the NDR.

  • Ozoneblue

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 8:53 am

    Answer my post at Ozoneblue, August 13, 2013 at 12:01 pm.

  • Dmwangi

    Debate here once again illustrates fundamentals behind financial market pricing: long-term problem is not fiscal or current account deficits (or even skills shortage/unemployment) but deficit of social capital.

    #weakrand-slowgrowth-lowinvestment-future

  • Ozoneblue

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 8:05 am

    “Ozoneblue, it will stop when blacks are able to earn like whites, when we stop living in dilapidated shacks, when Whites like Hoffman SC take on the led DA Western Cape to do away with the bucket system”

    In other words it will never happen because blacks are running the government, the state and the public services ever since 1994 and we know now they are systematically plundering our national wealth collected through the tax system meant for development and social upliftment. Yet it remains the fault of WHITE people 20 years down the line. Or WHITENESS. Or Colonialism. Or WHITE PRIVILEGE. Or INDIANS and Somalis I have noticed are the latest scape goat.

    Xenophobia by high school kids condemned

    The ANC has condemned the xenophobic attacks by high school pupils around Thokoza on the East Rand last week.

    It’s been claimed that the pupils went on a rampage after a Congress of SA Students organised a march where foreigners were allegedly blamed for taking away local jobs.

    “This criminal behaviour is anti-ANC, and we want those who are involved in these attacks to be brought to book; people must not use the ANC name for criminal activities,” ANC Gauteng secretary David Makhura said.

    The Congress of SA Students (Cosas) has also distanced itself from xenophobic attacks after hundreds of pupils went on a rampage, looting and vandalising shops owned by foreign nationals last Thursday.”

    http://www.thenewage.co.za/104319-1008-53-Xenophobia_by_high_school_kids_condemned

  • Mau

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 8:05 am

    Better yet, you can always go back to where your great-great grandfathers came from.

    Ze, you seem to have it all figured out. Maybe you can help me in my decision as to where to go back to. Some of the choices are:

    GGF: Polokwane
    GGGF Kroonstad , Natal Midlands
    GGGGF Colesberg, Karoo,
    GGGGGF Cape of Good Hope and Surrounds
    GGGGGGF Various ports including Angola, Bengal, Madagascar, Europe

    Please note 16% of my descendants at this level were indigenous from what we now know as the Cape. Same as with most those privileged “White Afrikaners” you see around you.

    GGGGGGGGF All across the living world.
    GGFx100 Africa, possibly this place we call South Africa. They say we all came from here originally?

  • Ozoneblue

    Mau
    August 14, 2013 at 9:18 am

    We must take these threats very seriously my friend.

    “The Congress of SA Students (Cosas) has also distanced itself from xenophobic attacks after hundreds of pupils went on a rampage, *looting and vandalising shops owned by foreign nationals* last Thursday.”

    Read Robert Mugabe’s “indigenization programme”. White Zimbabweans are classified with “foreigners”. Read Mngxitama/Malema and some similar sentiments towards White South Africans irrespective of their individual contributions quite popular in the Black middle class.

    Farmer killed at front gate

    http://news.iafrica.com/sa/875146.html

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Da Philosopher

    “Paul Hoffman SC isn’t the best thing since sliced bread”

    Philosopher is right. But Hoffman is certainly better than those disgusting “Low GI” loaves with the taste of tree bark and the texture of clotted sawdust!

    Thanks

  • Cuz

    Reading comments on this particular subject makes me more determined to campaign for the EFF.

  • Mike

    @Ze Philosopher – nobody is saying blacks are not worthy, what is being said is that you are not worthy of occupying a position that you are not qualified for simply because of the colour of your skin or your allegiance to the ANC.
    It is interesting that you want to lambast the Western Cape for the bucket system which by the way is not prevalent when in the centre of Johannesburg people are defecating into plastic bags and hurling across to neighbouring blocks of flats.
    This indicates your rabid racist attitude when you cannot acknowledge that the majority of squatter camps on the East Rand don’t have a toilet per shack and that these communities are sharing a “go kart” with 50 other people.
    Transformation based on racial representation is not a policy that is to be found in the constitution and neither is affirmative action given a definition.
    The definition of affirmative action in the constitution must therefore that definition discussed at CODESA which was the introduction of USA style affirmative action.
    The current transformation policies therefore are illegitimate and illegal and are an anathema to the constitution itself.
    Of course Mr Philosopher the alternative is to defragment this country with a civil war and then you all can be employed as director generals at 500 meticais a month because that is only currency that you will be able to earn from the Mozambique mine workers running the mines.

  • Ze Philosopher

    @ Mike, pray tell, what’s the one thing that disqualify CJ? @ Mau, indeed I have it all figured out, tired of Whites whining all over the shore as if they are divine.

  • Ozoneblue

    Heavy-handed censoring steps in again?

  • Ozoneblue

    Mau
    August 14, 2013 at 9:18 am

    “They say we all came from here originally?”

    Again – some wording in the post – can never find the “offensive” word that makes the filter kick in – but there is the link for you Mau.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/who-is-an-african-1.367010

  • Ze Philosopher

    In actual fact, Black South Africans are the most forgiving people globally, no matter how we were tortured we still forgave. Problem with a certain minority group in South Africa is, they just wanna keep taking and taking. Government is trying by all means to level the playing field, but you have people like Hoffman SC who just don’t wanna acknowledge change. Blacks only have a foot forward in the Public sector, Private Sector still regards many of us as aliens coz we are black. Their only excuse is that we are incapable. In a nutshell, no matter how you wanna justify your baseless arguments, blacks still suffer from the injustices of the past and there’s damn nothing you have done to change that.

  • Mike

    @Ze Philosopher – Get used to it chump because this is only the beginning. You had your opportunity to demonstrate to the western world on whom you relied to apply financial sanctions that you were up to the task of upholding democratic values.
    Instead you have demonstrated that you are no different to any other African country that once you have ascended to power you will move the goal posts continuously to stay in power just like Mugabe.
    What you aspire to is what the whites have created, this was indicated on Redi Thali’s 702 show when a black complained that after moving into a white area the nearest black owned petrol garage was kilometres away.

  • Ozoneblue

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 11:10 am

    “@ Mike, pray tell, what’s the one thing that disqualify CJ? @ Mau, indeed I have it all figured out, tired of Whites whining all over the shore as if they are divine.”

    Just as I’m sick and tired of reading about corrupt black leaders and politicians stealing my hard earned tax money almost with impunity and then using racist legislation to deny my basic human/constitutional rights as taxpaying SA citizen based on a phoney doctrine of “redress”.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 11:10 am

    Zeep Guy,

    Mike aptly pointed out that “you are not worthy of occupying a position that you are not qualified for simply because of the colour of your skin or your allegiance to the ANC.”

    But if you were another colour or had allegiance to anothe political party they you can occupy a position that you are not qualified for – I hope it is clear now. Thanks Mike.

    Re : “what’s the one thing that disqualify CJ?”

    Well, being a secular state, the participation of GOD and the PROPHET should have disqualified Mogoeng x many from the post.

    These orders coming from HIGHER UP should be banned!

  • Mike

    @Ze Philosopher – there is a wreck of an air force Dakota on Umtata airstrip that was flown by a black female pilot that had failed her exams three times and yet your ilk still persisted with transformation policies.
    What was the anti apartheid demonstrations all about in Europe, it was simply equal rights for all, but having achieved that now we have transformation to ensure job reservation for blacks in this country by way of racial quotas.
    This country will continue to slide in education productivity and law and order as the facts have indicated as long as you continue to bullshit yourself that you deserve to be promoted and considered for a position over more qualified and skilled persons simply because you are black.
    This point which is now a world wide issue was best demonstrated at UCLA where white students sold hamburgers at different prices for blacks Asians and whites, the black price being the cheapest.

  • Mike

    @Maggs – are you living in post apartheid South Africa or pre 1994.

  • Ze Philosopher

    @ Chump Mike, back at you with compliments. Ozoneblue, I suppose its better when Whites collude?

  • Ozoneblue

    Mike
    August 14, 2013 at 11:32 am

    “What was the anti apartheid demonstrations all about in Europe, it was simply equal rights for all, but having achieved that now we have transformation to ensure job reservation for blacks in this country by way of racial quotas.”

    And we know now from the EE stats and even public statements by our ministers that large swathes of the economy has already been “transformed” – emphasis on the narrow racial definition. We also know that the Black middle/upper class not only outnumber White middle/upper class circa 70/30% now but that the government and public sectors are overwhelmingly transformed. We know that most of these racist shit fights is about top positions for blacks in top 1% of the economy in public sector/academic/judiciary. It is fundamentally elitist in its nature but accompanied by a fake “revolutionary” rational.

    And you would note the goal posts have shifted again – a subtle change in the rhetoric – it is not about “transformation” any more but about Black people “asserting” their “racial identity”. And the most obvious why to “assert” this “racial identity” along a nationalist line is to entrench political power by continuing with broad racial empowerment policies that favour a certain dominant voter group irrespective of whether transformation has in fact occurred. And this phenomena I believe constitutes “unfair discrimination” and must be unconstitutional.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Dworky!

    Love the bread analogy!

  • Paul Kearney

    Oh dearie me, PdeV filling his racist quota for Baas Blade again. But many commentators here and on DM have picked apart the logic of the Prof’s little blog so my only comment is broader. I believe that discrimination of any sort on the basis of colour, sex etc is wrong in principle. Apartheid was wrong; BEE and AA are wrong. Worse is that the ANC government with one TBo Mbeki at its head primarily used AA and BEE to enrich and reward their friends and ANC comrades and so on down the line with jobs for life and tenders. These “cadres” were often incompetent or corrupt or both. But they were defended, to the death in some cases, by using the soon to be well used “race card”. This blog is just an extension of following a principle that is wrong and a spurious defence of that principle.

  • Mau

    Mike
    August 14, 2013 at 10:54 am

    “Transformation based on racial representation is not a policy that is to be found in the constitution and neither is affirmative action given a definition.
    The definition of affirmative action in the constitution must therefore that definition discussed at CODESA which was the introduction of USA style affirmative action.

    The current transformation policies therefore are illegitimate and illegal and are an anathema to the constitution itself.”

    You hit the nail on the head for me here Mike and this is where the crux of the matter is for me. Of course the colour of your skin or your own life perspective and experience will determine very much how you read and interpret the constitution. The fact that it is all “undefined” leaves it all open for interpretation and based on the perspectives of our constitutional professor who shows the argument is purely about race now, it is not going to be an easy ride until we start solving this. Everyone is speaking with forked tongue.

    It is all very well said and done if you are a black South African that we should redistribute from the whites. Follow Pierre’s example and put yourself in the shoes of those with different skin colour to you for a moment.

    Then consider the spirit of the constitution and you may just find that the only long term solution is for us to WIPE race from our application forms.

    We only get the best for all of us if there is a WIN WIN for us all. And that means that we have a truly fair playing field. It is a difficult pill to swallow particularly if you are a previously disadvantaged.

    I am from the belief that our transformation responsibility here is to give each and every kid a quality education and if we manage to do that successfully we could look at giving each person a toilet or a house or a service.

    Worldwide experience shows that the criteria that results in long term success is to let those with the most experience and the best qualification get the job. That way you get the best job done and so you have the greatest chance of long term success.

    Let everyone else compete to become better so that they can take over when the day comes. This is a process that has started in South Africa and cannot be reversed. As with every other aspect of our society we will be transformed. It’s going to happen eventually. Forcing the process will have unintended consequences as the fact that 5% of our municipalities can get a clean audit?

    The implication in the legal world is that transformation will be slow. But why is this necessarily an issue? How many of your students are black Pierre? What percentage? This is more likely to influence real transformation than anything politicians or tainted CJ’s can accomplish.

    It is also conveniently forgotten these days that part of what Madiba showed was that the solution is not to take from the whites to give to the blacks. We need to grow the cake/economy if we are to succeed. That’s the real challenge.

    From what I can gather, there are therefore about 30 000 registered lawyers in South Africa today today. Let’s assume 90% white for the moment. What are these guys going to do if we take their jobs and transform those jobs to black? So for one, you cannot really blame them from trying to protect their existing privilege and you will not stop this. This will likely be a slow but natural process?

    Anyway, everyone may well turn some attention to how we can rather create the need for another 100 000 new lawyers and start doing the things that will make that possible instead of trying to figure out how to replace the existing ones with a black one..

    And for those that cannot see it, take another look and understand that we are not going to grow the cake by side lining those with the wrong skin colour… whatever that my be for you..

  • Ze Philosopher

    @ Mike, how many Whites live in RDP Houses? Take a leaf out of Pierre’s life and acknowledge the injustice caused by Apartheid. stop defending the indefensible. I won’t entertain your UCLA students example because their forefathers like Willie Lynch tortured Back Americans. Whether you like it or not, transformation is here to stay and there’s damn nothing Helen Suzman Foundation or Institute for Accountability can do about it.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Vuyani! What are we going to do about the RACIST pattern manifest in the NPA and the President being represented by two WHITIST Silks in the Gauteng High Court last month? I am organising a BOYCOTT of all government work. Will you join me?

    Thanks

  • Ozoneblue

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    “@ Mike, how many Whites live in RDP Houses?”

    I see. So “transformation” will only be achieved when most of us Whites live in RDP houses. As I said before.

    Besides for PdV and other White liberals like him who are abandoning just about every “nonracial” principle based on the doctrine of “human rights” that made Apartheid such a “crime against humanity” – those principles sold to the white electorate in 1992 referendum which all of us advocated before 1994 – he will always cling on, with each betrayal and rescue himself by facilitating that process of retribution.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ze Philosopher

    “how many Whites live in RDP Houses?”

    About 300. That is because more than 950,000 WHITISTS, racially excluded from RDP houses, are living in cheap papers bags at the bottom of abandoned mine shafts near Witbank. This is a tragedy covered up by the LIBERAL media, as Ozoneguy and Brett will explain!

    Thanks.

  • Ozoneblue

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    “Whether you like it or not, transformation is here to stay and there’s damn nothing Helen Suzman Foundation or Institute for Accountability can do about it.”

    I expect you are right about that part though. That is why I have posted here a couple of times that I do not believe any more that a single “nonracial” South Africa can guarantee a future for minorities in general and Whites in particular. It is clear that all the “nonracial” “equal rights” etc. and so on ideological assumptions before 1994 that were generally embraced by White and Black liberals alike have all but been abandoned and or discard to the history bin.

    In such an environment a new political solution will have to be carved out of the unfortunate mess that we find ourselves in now.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    August 14, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    Dworky,

    “That is because more than 950,000 WHITISTS, racially excluded from RDP houses, are living in cheap papers bags at the bottom of abandoned mine shafts near Witbank.”

    Ja but where are they gonna go when me and EFF nationalise the mines?

  • Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Don’t worry boet, it is all a big joke, very funny now indeed.

    I hope the EFF really comes for you though. Perhaps they will do us all a favour and decapitate a couple of racist gay Indians as well.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    August 14, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    OB,

    “Perhaps they will do us all a favour and decapitate a couple of racist gay Indians as well.”

    By “us” do you mean RACIST WHITE PEOPLE?

    Well if THEY “decapitate a couple of racist gay Indians as well” it won’t really slow down the humungous production factory back in India. 1.3456789088232112 billion and still going strong.

    For every RACIST WHITE PERSON inspired decapitation, the factory goes into overtime producing three more.

    WDYSTT, eh?

  • Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    August 14, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    “WDYSTT, eh?”

    I really don’t know what to say seeing that your leader Julius Malema reckons we are “in the same bed now”. LOL.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    August 14, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    Well OB,

    When me an Juju take over this country, we won’t decapitate you, provided you give back the land you stole!

    We won’t decapitate you anyway because what the heck will we do with your ugly head?

  • Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    August 14, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    “When me an Juju take over this country, we won’t decapitate you, provided you give back the land you stole!”

    I don’t have any land. But given this new obsession with whom owned what in 1652 I will definitely seriously do some research on what my forefathers actually “stole” (if they did indeed steal any land) and who “stole” whatever they stole from them. I do know some of my ancestors were farming in the old Boer Republics before they got chased into concentration camps and ended up begging for a living in the mining slums around Jhb.

    I therefore demand my land back as well.

  • Mau

    Maybe it’s a good point to summarise some of the main points made so far:

    Whites stole the land
    Whites got all the benefits privileges and the education
    Whites must give it all back
    Whites do in fact not belong here at all
    Whites are the reason for the lack of everything
    Whites must just shut up or go back to where blacks think they came from
    Whites should be transformed and if there are more than 9% whites anywhere it is too many
    Whites should not have NGO’s or Institutes
    Whites just don’t want to acknowledge change
    Whites think Blacks are not worthy, lazy and corrupt
    Whites should put themselves in Black shoes
    Whites and their apartheid government killed blacks so have it coming to them
    Whites can only ever hold 9% of positions, of which 52% of that 9% must be white women, and 48% white men. And so on for coloureds, Indians and Chinese
    Blacks and whites having sex does not excuse sympathy
    Blacks feel the colour of your skin is more important that qualifications
    Blacks are revolutionaries
    Blacks should look in the mirror
    Blacks are now joining or campaigning for the EFF as the ANC has failed
    Blacks should be prioritised in respect of all opportunity
    Blacks need to be given houses and toilets
    Blacks can say what they want, but whites not as they are just racist
    Blacks can do with the tax what they like
    Blacks will make transformation happen no matter what anyone says
    Blacks need to affirm their identity

    In conclusion:
    Madiba’s reconciliation and wisdom was just a phase
    South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity BUT NOT WHITE PEOPLE!
    It will all stop when all blacks earn like whites and stop living in shacks

  • Gwebecimele
  • Mike

    @PDV and Ze Philosopher – Nothing has been said by you of JZ intended candidate or the position of the head of the NPA who is facing serious charges by the magistrates commission in KZN.
    Perhaps just as an appetiser how about the fact that he locked up a white women in the cells of the Pinetown Magistrates court in KZN over the lunch break so that she could get a better perspective on her testimony in court.
    Wow wee!! that’s transformation for you, imagine that guy as our chief crime buster.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Ze Philosopher

    @ Chump Mike, why say something when Harms in Harms Commission turned a blind eye when it was clear that Civil Cooperation Bureau and other murder squads established and operated by the South African Apartheid government were given carte blanche to flout the law of the land and violate every norm of civilized behaviour? Zuma is, but returning the favour. Clearly you have a goldfish memory because your example isn’t as heavy handed as the one where Racists White bastards were protected for killing our uncles in Vlakplaas. Zuma’s candidate should have put that woman in a cell with a pig and see if we cared. After all, it was White Racist who send Archbishop Desmond Tutu a baboon foetus, yet he forgave them.

  • Mau

    Gwebecimele
    August 14, 2013 at 13:19 pm

    http://www.thenewage.co.za/104474-19-53-New_race_quotas_for_SA_rugby

    32%. Some would say these quotas are generous. If we would apply the expectation of 9.6% that would have been 2 white players for each 22.
    Rugby is of course a priority for transformation and it is great to see our rugby teams turn rainbow nation. Why introduce this kind of racial profiling and legislate based on race?

    This is possibly a good example on how these quotas completely ignore countless realities. Culturally and historically, a larger % of white players from the white population will want to be a professional rugby player than the % of non white players from the non white population.

    If I apply the general demographics that I have seen with some of the schools rugby there seems roughly a 50/50 demographic at this level of rugby. In ten years time whether there are quotas or not, this is likely to translate into a 50/50 demographic at the provincial and national level in due time no matter what racist quotas from SA Rugby.

    So we must now somehow manipulate at all costs the transformation of the rugby public and player demographics? Why?

    In terms of numbers. I have no idea of the real numbers, but lets say there are 300 professional rugby players. This is the “market potential” for being a rugby player. If currently 15% of all players are white and they want to achieve the new quotas of 32% 40 out of 300 white rugby players should pack their bags and find themselves another job. Good luck to them of course as they will join the 90% of others that will eventually need to be fully transformed.

    And so we spend all this money and energy instead of just allowing the natural progress which will mean in the next 10 years 50/50 will be the norm and if the work is done at grass roots level to allow anyone that wants to play rugby to do so no matter their colour, that a natural balance will emerge…

  • Mike

    @Ze Philosopher – And of course no murder squads were operated by the ANC in the fairy tales that your father taught you.
    20,000 blacks were killed in black on black violence and don’t talk about civilised norms being followed by the ANC because if you do some homework the majority of the people killed by your brave MK when planting bombs in public areas were women and that includes black women.
    But of course you have proved my point that the history of Africa is one of blacks being unable to uphold agreements and as soon as they think they have the upper hand they renege on these agreements then they attempt to oppress other minority tribes.
    It is a fact that the ANC was in conflict with every political organisation during the 1980′s and that includes black political parties so go and change your nappy because you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to the blanket amnesty that TUTU gave the ANC criminals for their crimes.

  • Ze Philosopher

    @ Chump Mike, whilst at it shitting yourself due to the change on the horizon advocated by Advocates for Transformation,do take chill pills to witness South Africa succeed. Your “Pull them down syndrome” won’t work with me. Nothing good came out of Apartheid.

  • Mau

    Ze Philosopher
    August 14, 2013 at 14:35 pm

    “Nothing good came out of Apartheid.”

    Not even one thing you can think of Ze?

    Accepting this is true. What is it then that you want?

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    August 14, 2013 at 13:14 pm

    OB,

    “I don’t have any land.”

    Liar – we know you have it.

    Where have you hidden the land that you stole.

    Give it back or we will decapitate you and send your head to India to be with all the other coolies.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    August 14, 2013 at 14:12 pm

    Hey Mike,

    You’re right that the MK were pretty useless.

    If they did their job well, there would have been no need for CODESA, TRC, Zuma giving WHITE people RDP homes on MANDELA DAY, God’s third son Mogoeng-squared being impeached etc.

    Life in South Africa would have been wonderful – it would have been the rainbow nation without the rain. But now, eish – the next time I come across a MK guy, I’m gonna slap him!

  • Dmwangi

    I am truly inspired by PdV’s ability to pull people from diverse backgrounds together to work for the commonweal. If only we were all able to write such commentary that appealed to ‘the better angels’ of man’s nature!

  • Mike

    @Maggs – If MK did there job well then Ronnie Kasirils would have achieved his wet dream by riding on a Russian T54 tank up to the Union Buildings and hoisting the hammer and sickle.

  • Mike

    @Ze Philosopher – well the masses have been swallowing the same bullshit story as you for nearly 20 years and are still waiting for this success. Maybe the success lies in Limpopo’s ability in delivering text books.
    It is interesting to see how quickly you reverted to the race card when confronted with the reality of a racist transformation policy.

  • Mike

    @Ze Philosopher – And while we are at it who pulled the “transformed” black run municipalities down to a 5% pass mark.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    August 14, 2013 at 15:36 pm
    Mike,

    “If MK did there job well ” then there would have been no Union Buildings for Red Ronnie to ride up to in the Russian T54!!!!!!!

    Someone should write a book “Dreams of a revolution – life without the WHITE MAN!”

  • Ze Philosopher

    @ Chump Mikey Boy,bullying tactics aside,don’t let emotions cloud your judgment, detach feelings from the debate; frustration isn’t good for your health, you might end up not getting it up. Bullshit is your argument that there are no improvements with the new democratic South Africa. I rejoice in not having to travel with a dompass, exalted by the fact I don’t have to take shit from you or an old white fossil when I walk in Hatfield. @ Mau, you clearly have lost your sense of humour, no need for me to justify your question with an answer.

  • Zoo Keeper

    @Ze Philosopher

    What do you want? Spell it out so we can begin to understand the crisis of expectations that is gripping this country.

  • Maggs Naidu – WHITE people didn’t benefit from apartheid! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mau
    August 14, 2013 at 15:02 pm

    Hey Mau,

    “Not even one thing you can think of Ze?”

    I can think of one.

    Dimitri Tsafendas!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Ze Philosopher

    @ Zoo Keeper, I want people like Chump Mike Boy to stop with their racist pull them down tendencies, acknowledge that Blacks didn’t have and don’t have a rosy past like Whites. To acknowledge change, stop censoring acts or provisions constituted to redress the imbalance of the past, organizations like Institute for Accountability, Helen Suzman Foundation, Afriforum, FW De Klerk Foundation to stop acting all divine when no ones back is against the wall since they failed to fight for black lives. I want for us to build this nation together, without looking at the colour of my skin. I want Whites to be frank, afford blacks the same respect as they would to their fellow whites. I want whites to have faith in our ability as a nation, to share the country’s wealth, I want all white parents to stop poisoning and feeding their children all this bullshit like Chump Mike’s parents did. Truth is, as blacks we have given so much to all races, no matter they are Chinese, Indian, but we keep getting the middle finger due to the colour of our skin. Many an European countries were built with the wealth of this continent, but when is time for us to built this continent you get this silly comments from idiots like Mike. Why not be critical instead of getting all personal? No one is perfect, we are all bound to err at some stage, but if it’s a black person then you get Chump Mike and alike all up in arms. A whitesman horrible deeds on this continent can strecth to heaven, but we have to forgive and live with them. They have taken lives at whim, taken land at their own will. I am a proud South African and will always be thankful to our ancestors for instilling the spirit of Ubuntu in us. I bet no White South African would wanna experience the wreath experienced by their fellow Whites north our borders. What I wanted to emphasize is, if Whites keep pushing and pushing, guys like Malema will get support and the outcomes won’t be pretty for Chump Mike and alike. Whites should start to respect us as blacks, if Mandela is the bacon of hope in this country, how many black have it in them to be like him. I hope we go on to be the Rainbow nation that Mandela wished for, but we can only do that together as one. Yes, some of my fellow blacks aren’t experienced in certain field, but they compensate that by working hard, one mistake and they are villains. Why does it have to be blacks in the receiving end at all times? Why can’t Chump Mike pick me up and guide me instead of shooting me down? It isn’t about whether Hoffman SC is wrong or right, but the manner in which he went on to handle the matter at hand. My wish is that one day we help each other for the good of this country. The ultimate gift we can give to the coming generation of this country, is to join hands as one and build South Africa. We can never be equal due to our past, but we can approach the future with a positive attitude. That’s all I want, is that too much?

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    In his address the Chief Justice declared:
    “We must use all available avenues to expose this retrogressive campaign and the danger it poses to nation-building. But be warned, that engagement is not for the faint-hearted. Be ready to be trashed by a well co-ordinated network of entities often pretending to be working in isolation”.

    Anyone feeling trashed yet?

  • Brenda Robson

    Transformation and the race card are processes designed to shackle non-African’s ability, entrepreneurship, work ethic, cognitive skills and intelligence.
    Take a look at grass root level. You will find Somalis and Nigerians outperforming the locals.
    This countries dilemma is an IQ thing.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozone Blue

    @ZE
    “I want for us to build this nation together, without looking at the colour of my skin.”

    Exactly. But that is clearly what can not be achieved if we continue with AA where transformation has already been achieved. Read my other posts and respond.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozone Blue

    Jama ka Sijadu • 4 hours ago −

    ‘In his address the Chief Justice declared: “We must use all available avenues to expose this retrogressive campaign and the danger it poses to nation-building’

    Nonracialism and nation building is not retrogressive at all. But abusing majority racial entitlement as a way to ensure /secure political dominance in a “multicultural” society can not and will not achieve any of the above.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozone Blue

    Wohoo. We have another Apartheid beneficiary/collaborator who also studied in the RACIST and CAPITALIST USA during Apartheid on the CC now to join the likes of PdV and Mogoeng. Russell Madlanga.

    And the “transformation” – it keeps getting better every day.

    Marikana: ConCourt dismisses application for funding

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-08-19-marikana-concourt-dismisses-application-for-funding

  • Naina

    I am agree with you Mau.

    bus hire