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	<title>Comments on: More questions on the AbaThembu King</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: DavidJ</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24543</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1890#comment-24543</guid>
		<description>I rather like queens and kings as heads of state in constitutional monarchies, where they can be such for ALL their citizens, unlike partisan politicians, who more often than not alienate their citizens by their partisan politics . Politicans come and go, but the civil service, armed forces etc. are loyal to the country in the person of the monarch as head of state, even though he or she does not rule directly.

That&#039;s why the Italians were able to dump Mussolini in 1943 because the king of Italy fired him as prime minister. No such luck for the Germans, who were stuck with Hitler until the bitter end, because he was head of state, head of government and head of the party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I rather like queens and kings as heads of state in constitutional monarchies, where they can be such for ALL their citizens, unlike partisan politicians, who more often than not alienate their citizens by their partisan politics . Politicans come and go, but the civil service, armed forces etc. are loyal to the country in the person of the monarch as head of state, even though he or she does not rule directly.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why the Italians were able to dump Mussolini in 1943 because the king of Italy fired him as prime minister. No such luck for the Germans, who were stuck with Hitler until the bitter end, because he was head of state, head of government and head of the party.</p>
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		<title>By: Moss</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24527</link>
		<dc:creator>Moss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1890#comment-24527</guid>
		<description>&quot;What happened&quot; is that traditional leaders realised the ANC had secured the power of patronage, and the ANC realised traditional leaders had the power to secure the votes of unsophisticated rural tribespeople. It was a win-win situation, and to hell with the principles that underpinned the struggle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What happened&#8221; is that traditional leaders realised the ANC had secured the power of patronage, and the ANC realised traditional leaders had the power to secure the votes of unsophisticated rural tribespeople. It was a win-win situation, and to hell with the principles that underpinned the struggle.</p>
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		<title>By: MFB</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24516</link>
		<dc:creator>MFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>OK. Firstly, your claim that &quot;analysts say&quot; Dalindyebo is being persecuted because of his UDM connections seems rather strange. Who are these mysterious analysts? Or are you confusing the name of the King with the name of the municipality which the UDM controlled?

Secondly, it seems rather obvious that Dalindyebo&#039;s entire motive is to stay out of jail. Same as Zuma&#039;s under similar circumstances. The first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.

Thirdly, the need to buy off the &quot;traditional leaders&quot; was obvious. The traditional leaders, as you should know but evidently don&#039;t, were bought up wholesale by the colonial masters and then handed over to the apartheid state, whom most of them faithfully served. Some of them, like Buthelezi, Matanzima and company, served most brutally and loathesomely. In order not to face a series of tribalist revolts (and to prevent the NP from taking advantage of this in the run-up to the elections and thereafter) the ANC, which had always been doing its best to peel off as many &quot;traditional leaders&quot; as possible, decided to give them a whacking big pay-off.

Mandela, of course, was himself a traditional leader (a real, historical one at that). Mbeki wasn&#039;t, and was a bit cooler towards the actual &quot;traditional leaders&quot;, but a lot of his provincial leaders were more enthusiastic. Zuma, of course, depends very heavily on colonial Zulu myth-making for his appeal (at least in the white community) and so is terribly keen on traditional leaders. Which may discourage them from the fading-away process which I suspect that the ANC (which in the early &#039;00s was gradually sidelining traditional leadership in favour of elected municipal councillors) originally wanted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK. Firstly, your claim that &#8220;analysts say&#8221; Dalindyebo is being persecuted because of his UDM connections seems rather strange. Who are these mysterious analysts? Or are you confusing the name of the King with the name of the municipality which the UDM controlled?</p>
<p>Secondly, it seems rather obvious that Dalindyebo&#8217;s entire motive is to stay out of jail. Same as Zuma&#8217;s under similar circumstances. The first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.</p>
<p>Thirdly, the need to buy off the &#8220;traditional leaders&#8221; was obvious. The traditional leaders, as you should know but evidently don&#8217;t, were bought up wholesale by the colonial masters and then handed over to the apartheid state, whom most of them faithfully served. Some of them, like Buthelezi, Matanzima and company, served most brutally and loathesomely. In order not to face a series of tribalist revolts (and to prevent the NP from taking advantage of this in the run-up to the elections and thereafter) the ANC, which had always been doing its best to peel off as many &#8220;traditional leaders&#8221; as possible, decided to give them a whacking big pay-off.</p>
<p>Mandela, of course, was himself a traditional leader (a real, historical one at that). Mbeki wasn&#8217;t, and was a bit cooler towards the actual &#8220;traditional leaders&#8221;, but a lot of his provincial leaders were more enthusiastic. Zuma, of course, depends very heavily on colonial Zulu myth-making for his appeal (at least in the white community) and so is terribly keen on traditional leaders. Which may discourage them from the fading-away process which I suspect that the ANC (which in the early &#8217;00s was gradually sidelining traditional leadership in favour of elected municipal councillors) originally wanted.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24505</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;But in recent years the ANC has decided to embrace the traditional leaders and has forgotten its own critique of the system which is not really in line with the achievement of the National Democratic Revolution&quot;.

Sounds pretty much like a rewrite of Dickens&#039; - &quot;It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But in recent years the ANC has decided to embrace the traditional leaders and has forgotten its own critique of the system which is not really in line with the achievement of the National Democratic Revolution&#8221;.</p>
<p>Sounds pretty much like a rewrite of Dickens&#8217; &#8211; &#8220;It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24503</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@ Pierre

&quot;What happened?&quot;

1994 and beyond happened!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Pierre</p>
<p>&#8220;What happened?&#8221;</p>
<p>1994 and beyond happened!</p>
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		<title>By: Snowman</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24496</link>
		<dc:creator>Snowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If they manage to secede it will ease the South African taxpying public&#039;s burden.

Perhaps this new country will also outlaw some of the &#039;ills&#039; that have beset South Africa under the post 1994 dispensation.  LOL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they manage to secede it will ease the South African taxpying public&#8217;s burden.</p>
<p>Perhaps this new country will also outlaw some of the &#8216;ills&#8217; that have beset South Africa under the post 1994 dispensation.  LOL.</p>
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		<title>By: George Gildenhuys</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24492</link>
		<dc:creator>George Gildenhuys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What a weird system! Never knew this rather strange system of royal patronage existed in the Republic of South Africa?! 

Bizarre to say the least ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a weird system! Never knew this rather strange system of royal patronage existed in the Republic of South Africa?! </p>
<p>Bizarre to say the least <img src='http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: CD</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/more-questions-on-the-abathembu-king/#comment-24491</link>
		<dc:creator>CD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1890#comment-24491</guid>
		<description>Pierre, I&#039;m not but possibly what&#039;s happened is political expediency. 

Take King Goodwill: he has in fact, one way or another surrendered his sovereign authority to the republican state. But he still has the very real ability to influence the conduct of many folk who consider themselves Zulus. Now you wouldn&#039;t want to place someone like that in a position of poverty and have resentment building up, both in respect of himself and his subjects. Let&#039;s face, the thought of thousands of angry impi&#039;s is enough to make any take a step back. And so, for the sake of political stability the necessary is done. In a way I think may be the right thing too, leaving aside questions of stability. Traditionally the king would have had the right to levy taxes (or tributes) on his subjects. This has been surrendered to the republican state in return for some financial payments.

I wonder whether consititutionally the Traditional Leadership will survive challenge insofar as the removal of a king from office is concerned? Surely, there is a traditional &quot;constitution&quot; in each grouping that determines how the king is identified and selected and removed. How can the republican state simply ride roughshod over those traditional rules, the king&#039;s apparent misdemeanours notwithstanding? It can withhold payment very well but actually remove the king?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pierre, I&#8217;m not but possibly what&#8217;s happened is political expediency. </p>
<p>Take King Goodwill: he has in fact, one way or another surrendered his sovereign authority to the republican state. But he still has the very real ability to influence the conduct of many folk who consider themselves Zulus. Now you wouldn&#8217;t want to place someone like that in a position of poverty and have resentment building up, both in respect of himself and his subjects. Let&#8217;s face, the thought of thousands of angry impi&#8217;s is enough to make any take a step back. And so, for the sake of political stability the necessary is done. In a way I think may be the right thing too, leaving aside questions of stability. Traditionally the king would have had the right to levy taxes (or tributes) on his subjects. This has been surrendered to the republican state in return for some financial payments.</p>
<p>I wonder whether consititutionally the Traditional Leadership will survive challenge insofar as the removal of a king from office is concerned? Surely, there is a traditional &#8220;constitution&#8221; in each grouping that determines how the king is identified and selected and removed. How can the republican state simply ride roughshod over those traditional rules, the king&#8217;s apparent misdemeanours notwithstanding? It can withhold payment very well but actually remove the king?</p>
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