Much has been said about the decision by the Canadian Refugee Board to grant refugee status to ex water sprinkler salesman, Brandon Huntley. But I think I might have another question to ask about this sorry affair. Would the Refugee Board have come to the decision it did if it allowed for a full hearing with an array of witnesses from the South African government? Would it have made a difference if all witnesses were subjected to cross examination by Senior Council?
In other words, I am wondering whether those who applauded the utterly irrational decision of the JSC to drop the charges against John Hlophe and the Constitutional Court, would not have had a different view if the decision was not about Hlophe but about Huntley? Can it be that the Canadian Refugee Board and the JSC have more in common than some would like to admit?
If the answer is yes, would the same people who are (rightly) cheering on the review of the irrational decision of the Canadian Refugee Board also throw their weight behind the decision of FUL to review the JSC decision? Being principled and consistent, I am sure they all will.
Last year I visited Montreal in Canada, a pleasant enough place with wide streets, a good public transport system and a thriving gay village. The newspapers were dreadfully boring, the people friendly and open, but the society somehow lacked the edge and vibrancy of Johannesburg, Cape Town, Dakar, Kampala or Cairo. I guess if you are a not-too-bright white-boy-slacker from Mowbray in Cape Town, living in Canada must seem like a heavenly experience – a bit like being Judge President of the Cape High Court.
No wonder old Huntley tried to pull the wool over the eyes of those gullible Refugee Board members.
Canadian law states that one can be granted refugee status if one has a well-founded fear of being persecuted in your home country because of your race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion and you cannot return or do not want to return to your country because of your fear and the conditions there.
To be a person in need of protection, you must be someone who, if you had to return to your home country, would more likely than not face: torture, a risk to your life, or a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment. And if you face a risk to your life, or a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment, you must show all of the following: You are not able to get protection from the government in your country. The risk affects you personally, and is not faced generally by other people in your country. For example, the risk is not the result of a famine or civil war. The risk is not the result of government laws, such as punishment for committing a crime, unless these laws violate international standards. The risk is not caused by the fact that you cannot get adequate medical care in your country.
To be granted refugee status in Canada you also need to show that there is no place in your country where you would be able to go and be safe from persecution or from the risk that you face. It is up to you to convince the IRB that you are a Convention refugee or a person in need of protection. You do this by telling your story to the IRB and providing any documents that support your case. For example, you might provide identity documents, police reports, medical records, or other documents that help show that your story is true. You might also provide documents, such as human rights reports or newspapers, that show what is happening in your country.
But apparently there is no need for a full hearing with cross examination and no opportunity for anyone from your home country to provide evidence that might contradict your story.
Huntley is therefore very lucky. Imagine the Refugee Board had to have a full hearing and the South African government could present evidence – tested under cross examination – about the situation in South Africa. Hell, the South African government could merely have asked a representative of Pam Golding Properties to go and testify on their behalf. Onthe Pam Golding’s website, Huntley’s old suburd is described as follows:
Mowbray is known for its convenient locality to all of Cape Town’s amenities, particularly exclusive schools, the University of Cape Town, the world-famous Groote Schuur Hospital and sporting facilities, such as the Rondebosch Golf Course and Newlands Rugby and Cricket grounds. Boasting large family homes, when you buy a house in the Southern Suburbs, you are not only buying a home, but rather a lifestyle of carefree independence for your children.
This fascinating historical suburb stretches from Mostert’s Mill, which was built on the farm Welgelegen in about 1796, to the Rondebosch Common and is situated between the N2 highway and Rosebank. There are at least three historic homes; Westoe, Moolenvleit and Koornhoop situated along the Liesbeek River and these are all well maintained. Mowbray has a real mix of cultures from the thriving African marketing around the taxi/bus interchange to the quiet residential areas of Little Mowbray, the Village and Upper Mowbray.
One should know a decision is irrational when the promotional material of an estate agent sounds more plausible than the findings you have come to. A bit like the JSC really. As someone who used to live in Mowbray I am obviously incensed by the Canadian Refugee Board decision. After all, Mowbray can be scary – but usually only when you do not like private schools, do not play golf or happen to be black.
Of course, consistency and principle are not the strong points of those who wish to sweep the Hlophe saga under the carpet. What a pity that is.
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=142257&sn=Detail
If I understand this piece correctly, the current CC judges are now called “house Negroes”?
To what level will these people stoop?
Pierre, you start by the Huntley saga but confusingly conclude on the Hlophe affair, is it because you seek to force us to equate FUL and JSC Decision as being both irrational?It seems as if you are aggrieved at us and since we denounce the FUL decision you want to say to us ” but you have no right to do that because your JSC is like our FUL”, how shameful?
But all the same I do not want FUL to reverse it’s decision on Huntley, as I said before, we can do better than having people like him in SA.
PdV Sep 7th, 2009 asks:
Would the Refugee Board have come to the decision it did if it allowed for a full hearing with an array of witnesses from the South African government?
Unfortunately Prof, as you have correctly stated somewhere in this post, this is one of the ex parte cases where the audi rule does not necessarily apply. The applicant’s country of origin has no automatic right to make presentation and Canada is also not obliged to invite them and hear their presentation.
The IRB may or may not have been properly constituted but that is another issue that should concern the Canadian government in ensuring that its laws are observed at all times. I do not see a passage for SA in terms of the Canadian Refugee Protection Law to challenge this decision legally. Just like in the case of our international refugee / immigration laws, there is no obligation to hear the views of the applicant’s country of origin and for it to claim recourse.
May through some other diplomatic channels they may put enough pressure to the Canadians to withdraw the refugee status granted, but that will certainly not in terms of the Canadian Refugee Protection Law.
Regarding, FUL, I support its decision to challenge the JSC and also welcome the resignation of Ramaphosa and Ntsembeza et al. Their presence was making FUL a duplicate of JSC or one of the ANC aligned structures such as SANCO, Rhema Church e.t.c. If there are still others within FUL who are bent on compromising our constitution in favour of an individual, political party or government, it will be good for them to follow suit. Kriegler must not be disturbed by their resignations and stupid reasons they are spewing in public. We need more forums like FUL to challenge bizarre decisions like this and the dropping of the JZ case by the NPA.
Henri, thanks for the link to the JFHA press release. The hypocrisy is of course breathtaking as Hlophe himself has challenged decisions of the JSC on the basis of PAJA and then JFHA did not claim that such a review constituted an attack on the JSC and our judiciary. Shameless.
Pierre, your piece betrays the narrow perspective of the hyper-privileged urbanite.
Indeed, you, and others in the top 5%, would have the luxury to appreciate the fabled “edge” and “vibrancy” of Johannesburg.
But I rather suspect that the poor, those most vulnerable to predatory criminals, and poor women in particular, who must live their lives in constant terror of rape, would not hesitate to opt for the boring safety of Montreal you enjoy the privilege to scorn.
Just for the record, Prof, I would not exactly trust an estate agent’s spin on a suburb. They, too, have their own agendas.
Have you been to Mowbray recently? It certainly does not accord with the quote from Pam Golding’s website and from what I can recall, there have been several murders there over the past couple of years, including, if I am not mistaken, a UCT Professor/Lecturer.
I would find it extremely hypocritical of our government to get involved in the Huntley affair, given their total indifference to their reluctance to intervene in the Roxanne Hillier and Kerry Winter cases.
Oh my word!! The link provided by Henri is worth reading only for the sheer entertainment value!! I wonder how Mamphele Ramphele will enjoy hearing that she is nothing more than a “double-agent” from the struggle.
Years ago I worked with her nephew and I can assure you that the Ramphele family endured unbelievable hardships (including exile) under the Apartheid government.
If anyone has read Adv. Ntsebeza’s press release about his resignation from FUL, one begins to wonder who really is interested in the truth and who is merely politicising things for their own agendas.
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=142260&sn=Marketingweb%20detail
It’s quite astonishing to me that when the race card doesn’t work because the opposition are black, these people revert to dark forces and double-agents.
Samantha, if I am not mistaken Professor Larkin was killed in Rondebosch not Mowbray – which was a very sad business regardless of where it happened. But I think Rondebosch is within walking distance of Mowbray.
Ntsebeza uncomfortable with Kriegler’s criticism and so labels him a racist – and he has the gall in the same statement to say Kriegler conducted an ad-hominiem attack on him.
Very sad as I had a lot of respect for him for the way he conducted himself in the TRC.
Leigh, you are right. I should have double-checked before I posted. He was walking from UCT to Rondebosch when he was murdered. However, I recall that Mowbray was still one of the least safest areas within the Southern Suburbs when I lived in Cape Town.
Without wasting my energy on this boring rhetoric. @Mdu, i’m with you on the subject-matter.
Samantha, you are right: Mowbray is hardly safe. That is not to say there are not more perilous places in the Western Cape. But you can meet trouble in Mowbray, Observatory etc – even if you try to avoid it.
Crime is a human condition, its not about race. There are white, indian people and coloured people who are criminals too. In addition, crime is everywhere, African people have also been victims of crime in Soweto, and parts of Johannesburg. therefore it is astounding in the extreme for some white people to claim as that white man who ran to Canada that crime a a disease spread by black people.
I think whites still think that they must be accorded some special treatment because of their skin pigmentation. You dont hear black people bad-mounting RSA abroad as did this despicable white man who ran to Canada. A lot of my friends have been victims of white collar crime and violent crime pepetrated by white people, but you dont hear them act the way this Huntley acted. Instead, we form Policing Forums and Million men marches to try and deal with crime.
My respects were paid to Prof Larkin, who lectured me on Company Law, it was indeed a said occurence.
Marx said it all about crime when he said “society views crime as a blemish on an otherwise healthy society, it distances itself from the core institutions of society by claiming that the criminal causes the problem of crime, whereas this is not the case, as society causes the problem of crime by the way it treats its people.” Now you wonder why most economic crimes are frequent in affluent areas and not in the Township like Soweto, where some of us grew up, the poor are hitting back at the system that has pushed them into a secluded corner.
As usual, Skhokho has makes good points.
Every day one reads in The Star of white male hijackers senselessly shooting motorists at Johannesburg intersections, and driving off in their cars, only to abandon them nearby.
I must say that I was very interested to hear from Skhokho that economic crime was more common in affluent areas than in Soweto, and that crime is a matter of poor people “hitting back at the system.”
I had always thought that the vast proportion of crime victims were poor black people.
But I was wrong.
Henri, thank you for providing the link.
The JFHA’s analysis of the relevant circumatances is completely divorced from (a) the content of the JSC majority decision and also from (b), the content of cogent legal criticisms levelled against it such as those proffered by Professor Unterhalter.
I think the suit which FUL means to launch is necessary. And while I thik it is necessary for more than one reason, I shall confine my remarks here to just one: we simply should not countenance public bodies taking unchallenged unlawful decisions.
The alarming point is that the members of the JFHA may earnestly believe that their sentiments accord with the dictates of justice here. And yet, and with all respect, it seems quite clear that their sentiments demonstrate a startling lack of awareness of what appears to be the overarching concern here: the preservation of the rule of law – which is plainly undermined if unjust administrative decisions are taken.
Could anyone who disfavours the suit which FUL means to pursue ask him or herself why it may be important to hold public bodies to the rule of law? I would respectfully ask them to do so given that many of the reproaches thus far (if not all of them) just do not take account of the basic grounds for and motivations behind FUL’s election to resort to litigation. And criticisms which fail to take cognisance of principal bases of the positions which they seek to undermine are almost characteristically unconvincing.
I would add that in the current instance, the proponents of the JSC majority may well be taken to be advancing that the JSC ought to have powers beyond those which are properly conferred upon it. Yes they do not say so in so many words of course. But it seems that one could quite fairly draw that inference given that they are so plainly averse to anyone daring to make out that the decision is deeply flawed. In other words, unlawful decisions taken by the JSC ought to be above reproach and meritorious legal challenge.
Wonderful stuff from the JFHA! My Monday morning cup of coffee, my legal constitutional and to cap it all a brilliant piece of rhetoric from Jossy Zitha. My week feels complete already. Now a date with Johnny Depp would make this the best day of my life.
Tutu and Mamphela Ramphele house negroes! Who’d have guessed it. Surely not Steve Biko? (Actually, I suspected Tutu all along. All that charismatic nonsense and falsely beatific and all-embracing smiles.)
Ah Sarah, Johnny Depp is married… And so are you.
a woman can dream
Of course crime statistics show very clearly that places like Kayelitsha and Mitchell’s Plain are far far more dangerous than places like Mowbray. From my personal experience I can attest that the kind of policing in Mowbray is far superior to that which one would find at the Harare Police Station in Kayelitsha.
@Fassbinder, i’m not saying the poor are not affected by economic crime. But that its more found in affluent areas because most criminals believe that they dont spin in the huis( ie they dont steal from the community in which they live in). In addition, that the rich and wealthy live in the affluent areas such as Sandton etc.
Sarah, while I would never expect a girl to stop dreaming – although the reasons why she would dream about Johnny Depp escape me – you have a great hubby who supported you through what can only be described as a dodgy campaign. Yes I never liked McCain. And the soccer moms unite bit never really put the jam in my doughnut. So the question darling (and this is really the only question) is: would Johnny Depp with all of his Hollywood pomp have done the same as your dear husband? Just something to think about
Skhokho
“I think whites still think that they must be accorded some special treatment because of their skin pigmentation.”
Please rather use the less inflamatory “some whites” rather than just the lazy and sweeping “whites”. There are poeple living in those white skins and I am sure you would agree, despite of the trend in our political discourse, that there are a few decent whites out there. I would never make sweeping statements about “blacks” – it is entirely nonsensical given the wide variety of individuals and outlooks within the so-called black community.
Peter, let me commend you for your restraint. I commend you on that score chiefly because of late, I have found it somewhat difficult to produce comparable measures thereof.
As you are no doubt aware, it seems quite clear that we can expect sweeping generalisations from the very people who bemoan the fact that people are often judged on the basis of colour only.
Yes some white people may mistakenly cleave to the notion that they deserve special consideration purely because they are white. And they would be wrong. But one could say a great deal about the tendency to impute that misguided view to all white people. I shall mention only two points though: for a start, such gross generalisation betrays a complete absence of critical inspection. And secondly, such generalisations strongly suggest personal prejudice.
Mdu, you are confusing the Canadian Refugee Board with Ful, the body who has announced it will have the decision by the JSC reviewed. Unlike you, I do not make arguments about “our” this and “your” that. I am making the point that some bodies (one in canada, one in SA) made irrational decisions and that this might have been prevented if such bodies would have had full hearings where witnesses were cross examined, decisions were taken about the credibility of witnesses and the truthfulness of their testimonies and a decisions were then reached. I am also pointing out the hypocrisy of those attacking the Canadian decision (which was irrational) but endorses the JSC decision (which was simmilarly irrational to such an exctent that the JFHA has even refused to provide any legal justification for supporting it! – it is indeed indefensible when even JFHA refuses to defend it on substantive grounds).
Leigh, de gustibus non est disputandum. No doubt you’ve got your pinups too. Johnny’s what I’ve got to settle for today cos all mine are dead.
But I wasn’t expecting anything more from Johnny than dinner, a dance (the hokey cokey, perhaps) and a goodnight kiss. I wasn’t looking for a lifelong partner!
Skhokho, so you are saying that black poor people prefer to:
(a) Mostly steal from rich whites (as a way of “hitting back at the system.”)
and
(b) Mostly murder and rape other black people.
This seems odd. Please explain.
@Peter, i agree that some qualification should be included, but will rather use “most whites’ than the some whites. I think the latter illustrates my points more accurately than some. Since its many.
Sarah, you are right of course: a decent night out having dinner and doing the hockey cokey with Jack Sparrow is no biggie in the wider scheme of things – and it may even turn out to be a laugh. As regards your dead pinups: Marlin Brando maybe?
@Michael Osborne, that question(ie (b) ) was answered by Michael Mundaene in his book titled I AM AN AFRICAN, i which he says amongst other things that black on black crime is a result of the self-hate ingrained on black by colonialism. Now, my post does not suggest that crime of whatever nature is committed only against whites. I’m saying in post that economic crimes affect white people the most, who happen to be many in the affluent areas such as Sandton. This effect is for the some of the reasons i mentioned. So if you compare the stats, Soweto and other poverty stricken areas are less affected by economic crimes, not to say they are completely unaffected.
i feel safer in the Township than i do when i visit the affluent areas.
Just to add some completeness, Criminologists have also underscored the problem in under the topic, causes and motivations for crime.
By hitting back at the system i mean, the gap between the rich and the poor and the problem of racial divisions in RSA have led to the crime problem. It is common cause that most people who reside in the affluent areas are by and large white. A minute number is black.
Thanks Skhokho, I feel more love now.
Skhokho, I am still puzzled. You seem to suggest that:
a) Most “economic” crime is committed by poor blacks against rich whites, and this is their way of “hitting back.”
b) Most violent crime is committed by poor blacks against other poor blacks, and this is as a result of them being brutalised by apartheid.
I have two questions:
1. If poor blacks really wanted to “hit back” at whites, why do they not also direct more violent crime at whites? It seem to me that poor blacks target white areas to steal from not because they want to “get back” at whites, but because there is just more stuff to steal in white areas.
2. If the reason for the high violent crime rate in black areas is apartheid’s legacy, why is there also an extraordinarily high rate of violent crime in placed like Lagos and Rio? I observe that lot of poor people are crammed together in impoverished areas, there will be a lot of crime. It has nothing to do with whether the poor people responsible for the violent crime are black or white or Brazilian.
sarah palin says:
September 7, 2009 at 13:09 pm
pfff Johanny Depp, puhlease. you should rather cant your lucky stars you got Mr Michigan here
johanny depp dont make me laugh
Skhokho, I am not familiar with Michael Mundaene. So I shall have to assume that you tender an accurate statement of his position.
It seems that you would have us believe that Mundaene’s theory presents as follows: black on black crime is the consequence of self-hatred to which the experience of colonialiam gave rise.
I do not find this theory convincing – and it is just as well that I do not given that I find it moderately repellant.
I think that at the heart of the construction which you provide, the author seeks to relieve black people of any liability for wrongdoing. The theory appears to overlook the individual’s capacity for (a) personal choice and (b), acceptance of personal responsibility.
So in a nutshell, it appears that the theory tends to promote the enfeeblement of black people inasmuch as it implicitly rejects the notion that black people have the same capacity for decision making and earnest introspection that their white counterparts enjoy.
You do not say in so many words that you endorse the theory. But if you do, then I have to ask: what the hell are you doing supporting a theory that undermines the potential of black people?
Peter, glad to see that the love is back
@Michael Osborne, whites also experience violent crimes, robberies, rapes, murders etc. I disagree that there is more stuff to still in white areas, this seems to be a gross assumption that there is not enough stuff to steal in Soweto, there is expensive stuff to steal in Soweto, cars, furniture etc. But these are not stolen as much as they are in the affluent areas, the last crime stats attested to this. I know this because i lived in Soweto for almost two decades, in diffrent parts of Soweto.
It does have a lot to do with the historical imbalances, people are still suffering mentally and emotionally from the effects of apartheid. The examples of Lagos etc ,proves Michael Mundaene correct that it is self-hatred because Nigerians commit these crimes against each other, however, i must point out that Mundaene focused on the South African situation. It might be that this is different in other countries, as per their history. Lastly, we must not lose the fact that tribalism is a creation of colonialists so this would partially explain the Nigerian situation.
@Leigh, i disagree, no where in his book does he say black people are completely incapable of making up their minds about doing something and taking responsibility. He merely emphasises the effects apartheid had on the Africans, and how it now manifests itself into action. I suggest you get the book for a detailed analysis @ Exclusive books or CNA outlets across the country. Lastly, i support Michael Mundaene 100%. i look foward to a construcive debate on the book, if you are inclined to buying one. Its a good book and a good critique of the Capitalist Nigger book.
It has long been accepted in Criminology that people are not completely incapable of appreciating their actions. There are very few cases that passes, eg where someone is mentally ill in the extreme, was drunk in the extreme Etc. Mundaene says that people are still suffering from the hangovers of the apartheid system, their pride is down, he makes an example of cashiers at a Supermarket who will constantly play with white kids of customers, but not with those of black customers. He expands this point by saying that this has its roots in upbringing where blacks kids were given white dolls, so they grow up glorifying white people and kids more than their own.
Skhokho Radebe says:
September 7, 2009 at 14:49 pm
“Lastly, we must not lose the fact that tribalism is a creation of colonialists so this would partially explain the Nigerian situation”
I think you need to read up on the Difaqane lol tribalism invented by the white man now?? oh my god
“It does have a lot to do with the historical imbalances”
so Huntely is right actually there is revenge attacks then?
“self-hatred because Nigerians commit these crimes against each other”
No the problem with Nigeria is who has control of resources as about 35 percent of land that was cultivable 50 years ago is now desert in 11 of Nigeria’s northernmost states: Borno, Bauchi, Gombe, Adamawa, Jigawa, Kano, Katsina, Yobe, Zamfara, Sokoto and Kebbi. This has nothing to do with self hatred and has nothing to do with colonialism.
“he makes an example of cashiers at a Supermarket who will constantly play with white kids”
yeh so what?
explain to me how I see white females playing with black babies (oh wait no they played with black dolls???) infact you can ask many white females that they think black babies are cuter than white babies.
Chris, Ok Mr Michigan Man. When are you coming to Orania? My date with Bak Ore Moerdyk never worked out the other night, mainly due to severe communication problems. Michigan I can do easily.
Leigh, Marlon Brando definitely. On the waterfront, though, not up the river. Also James Dean, Gregory Peck, George Peppard and Sean Connery.
One person I do NOT want a date with is Brandon Huntley. Those eyebrows are scary!
Sarah Palin says:
September 7, 2009 at 15:25 pm
Where the hell is Orania? are they known as Orangutans? I wouldnt mind becoming an Orangutan
Sean Connery?
I can wear a kilt if you want
Ill become an african ( my new adopted country) american orangutan with a kilt how does that sound to you?
Skhokho you suggest:
1. Whites suffer from violent crime as much as blacks? With respect, this is utter nonsense. The murder rate suffered by blacks is incomparably higher.
2. There is as much “stuff” in Soweto as Sandton? Again, nonsense.
You now say white people are also responsible for crime in Lagos, because colonialism encouraged tribalism. Yes, is true that colonialists used divide and rule tactics. But I do not think that the frequent bank robberies in Lagos are generally organised on tribal lines.
Finally, what do you think caused the very high crime rates in 19th century urban slums in England? Roman colonialism? Or the Norman conquest?.
Chris
You can wear a kilt, sure. But have you got a carpet on your chest?
Orania is deep in the Karoo. Among its many rules are: no kilts, no african americans, no monkeying around and definitely no blacks – although somehow Julius got by that one. I think the ANC got one vote there last election but that have been a joke doing the rounds.
Skhokho is right. Black people target white people because of apartheid.
So, Huntley, although a terrible racist, speaks the truth on this point.
Almost all criminal violence everywhere in the world can be traced to white colonialism. There are many books that prove this.
Sarah, Sean Connery is the epitome of cool. And the others certainly aren’t dodgy – if you’re into that sort of thing. But if I may play at being a therapist, I would like to ask: what’s with the penchant for devilish blokes? There something your not telling?
Sarah Palin says:
September 7, 2009 at 15:47 pm
The karoo?? now is that in australia? This is getting complicated, r u playing hard to get?
No african americans? but im white … damn that racist now. How about I just met you in Alaska? we can play ice hockey together wink wink nodge nodge, i can take you up into my cabin
@michael
“Roman colonialism? Or the Norman conquest?.”
Im afriad that wont work thats whites against whites…so im guessing that must be white self hate then? maybe Skhokho can clear that up for us?
Hell I always that men where put on this earth to build bridges and ships and conquer shit? we wage war its what we do
@ Mikhail,
Oh please!! You mean to say that there was no killing and murdering and raping and stealing in Africa before whites came to the continent? Or that the tribes in South America were not stealing each other’s stock and shrinking their enemies heads prior to the Spanish Conquistadors.
China was never colonised by whites, but I can guarantee they have criminal violence.
Here’s a link that might please all those who wish to blame whites for everything while refusing to accept any responsibility for their own actions:
http://www.hayibo.com/articles/view/1114
Hi Mikhail
Skhokho Radebe – “It has long been accepted in Criminology that people are not completely incapable of appreciating their actions. There are very few cases that passes, eg where someone is mentally ill in the extreme, was drunk in the extreme Etc. ”
The same would therefore go for Hlophe, no? He clearly knew what he did is wrong, but did it nevertheless.
@Michael Osborne, you proposition that there are no assets in Soweto is a troubling proposition and is misguided. Have you ever lived in Soweto? I dont think so, so i wonder where do you get your conclusion from. It smells of racist tendencies and attitudes, note i’m not saying you are racist. I’m saying your ignorance is astounding, there are mansions in Soweto, eg The late Godfather of Soweto has a Mansion there so is a lot other people. Do visit please, and stop making unfounded comments about Soweto.
In addition, No i’m not saying white people are responsible for the crime in Nigeria, i’m saying that the violent crimes by tribes on other is attributed to tribalism which is an incidence of colonialism. Yes i agree that there is also a fight about assets, the oil etc.
There were many causes of crime in England during that period, one which i remember is that people rebelled against the system which was in place then, hence the emergence of gangs like the skin heads, who hated the Government and the system in place then. The rich kids committed crime for kids etc. I must confess though that i have not had the time to review and refresh my memory on my Criminology notes on this subject, so this argument is somewhat thin.
@Anonymouse can we please let the Hlope JP issue rest, i for one i’m exhausted and tired of talking about Hlope JP, cant people let the man be? all i can say is i’m happy that he was cleared. My submissions using Criminology have no bearing whatsoever on the Hlope JP matter.
@Leigh, i see you seem to be attracted to Mikhail, or not. i stand corrected, Mikhail lucky you if its true.
@Leigh, just a continuation of the race debate, do you find African man attractive? if not, why? if yes, would you date one?
Skhokho, as I mentioned earlier, I have not read Mundaene’s book. So if you would, I would appreciate it if you could clarify some of his views for me because upon such clarification, it might emerge that you and I do not disagree on very much at all.
On what I gathered from the first post in which you mentioned Mundaene, his theory appears to lend itself to the following construction: it is implicit in his theory that black people lack the capacity for (a) personal choice and (b) acceptance of personal responsibility. And by ‘implicit’ I mean that even though he may not have said so outright, his position seems to imply this view.
In other words ,on what I gather from your statement of the author’s theory, it seems that one might be able to unpack it as follows: black people commit offences against other black people. They do so due to self-hatred. They bear this lingering self-hatred due to their experience of colonialism. There is thus a causal relation between black on black violence and the colonial experience. So it seems to me that on your statement of the author’s stance, he ascribes black on black violence to (a) colonialism and thus necessarily (b), white people.
I certainly do not rule out the view that the circumstances which surround people – of whatever race – can bear heavily on whether they come to tend towards crime. That is, we are many of us, and in many respects, products of our environments.
But let me ask you this in the hope that we might achieve the clarification which I spoke of earlier: does Mundaene’s theory allow for the possibility that colonialism-inspired self-hatred may at times have nothing to do with the commission of an offence which one black person commits against another?
Skhokho, are you asking me out on a date?
Chris (et Sarah) – Orania is actually situated in the Northern Cape (not in the Karoo – more towards the kalahari or kgalagadi), the closest small town being Olifantshoek, the biggest Upington. It was set up as a so-called white homeland by one Carel Boshoff (and auntie Betsie Verwoerd moved there where she was first visited by Nelson Mandela), where ‘citizenship’ (if you wish) is only conferred on white, Afrikaansspeaking people. Yes, it can be regarded as racist but they speak highly of their international right, as a people, to govern themselves. They even have their own currency, with a fair trade value against the rand, which is however only recognized in Orania itself.
@Leigh, he does not attribute it all to this colonialism. He lists and discusses it as one of the things that contributes. The other one that he mentioned is the stark inequality and poverty which is so corrosive in our society.
But he mainly says that many Black people suffer from some form of psychological flaw attributed to the past which makes them view the world, RSA in troubling way. One is demotivation, belief that whites are superior , extreme jealousy against other successful blacks, etc. I again repeat that he does not say black people are therefore rendered completely incapacitated from appreciating the net effects of their actions or some of their actions.
Sarah, what have you done? It seems all your talk of Jack Sparrow and his fellow rascals has let the cat out the bag. Or might the real culprit be Peter and all of his talk of love? Whoever’s to blame for this bloody Shakespearian injection of romance into a serious discussion about the need to challenge irrational decisions and the apparent tendency of some factions to avoid legally founded refutation thereof: square this sort of thing away with the Professor first
No, i’m just curious about your preferences. Yoh! i think if you and i were to go out, there would be constant verbal sparings emanating from our ideological differences and upbringing.
Skhokho, it seems we just about agree for a change.
Actually, it seems you and the Professor may find some common ground here as well as he argues elsewhere that people who suffered systemic oppression have to contend with the psychological aftermath thereof – which he argues (and with which I agree) can be exceedingly difficult and painful.
So don’t faint mate: you and the Professor may actually agree on something racial
leigh are you trying set Pierre up with Skhokho?
Pierre do you find black men attractive?
Geez Chris
I mean, how did you know?
Skhokho Radebe, the JP was not “cleared” by the JSC. Neither was the CC judges “cleared” by the JSC. That is exactly the problem. The JSC decided not to decide the matter, so we have no authoritative finding on who of Nkabinde, Jafhta or Hlophe lied, who of them are more credible and should be believed, on whether the former made a false accusation or the latter a false denial. No one was cleared. All we know with absolute certainty (probabilities aside) is that one or more judges lied through their teeth. The JSC decided not to decide who.
PS: I was going to add a flirtatious sentence, but decided against it for fear of being accused of patronising anyone!
@Chris McDaniel at 17:17 pm
What kind of racist piece of peanut butter like stuff is that?
Pierre, you are welcome to be flirtatious. I just beg you to drop the HLOPHEPHOBIA!
I’m amazed – I’ve just learnt that Peanut Butter can be racist! I’m presuming this refers to the lighter peanut butters though?
Mouse, thanks for that clarification. I’m just a ditzy blonde whose geography has let her down again.
Leigh, of course it was bound to happen. Isn’t September 1st he first day of Spring?
Spring is sprung, the grass is ris … in the Spring a young man’s fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love (Tennyson showing signs of sexism there but not, we note, racism) … or Shakespeare himself on Spring: the cuckoo then, on every tree, Mocks married men, for thus sings he: ‘Cuckoo! Cuckoo, cuckoo!’ O word of fear, Unpleasing to a married ear.
Sarah, you are right you: this is the time to be down for love. But not kissing and making up though. Administrative justice never goes out of season.
Skhokho – “@Anonymouse can we please let the Hlope JP issue rest, i for one i’m exhausted and tired of talking about Hlope JP, cant people let the man be?” … It’s my job to tire people like you, and Hlophe, and others on the Band Wagon. That’s the duty of every cross-examiner. You see what might (or might not) come out of full cross examination of the witnesses in the Hlophe saga (as the minority wanted)? Experience has shown, he (or she) who tires first, or first loses his/her nerve and starts babbling nonsensical lines, usually loses. … My bet is, this time around, it’ll be Hlophe (and his followers).
Regarding Mundaene’s book–you might be interested in the following paper: “The Slave Trade and the Origins of Mistrust in Africa”. Here is the abstract, and a link to the full article (.pdf) follows:
ABSTRACT: We investigate the historical origins of mistrust within
Africa. Combining contemporary household survey data with historic
data on slave shipments by ethnic group, we show that individuals
whose ancestors were heavily raided during the slave trade today exhibit
less trust in neighbors, relatives, and their local government. We
confirm that the relationship is causal by using the historic distance
from the coast of a respondent’s ancestors as an instrument for the
intensity of the slave trade, while controlling for the individual’s current
distance from the coast. We undertake a number of falsification tests,
all of which suggest that the necessary exclusion restriction is satisfied.
Exploiting variation among individuals who live in locations different
from their ancestors, we show that most of the impact of the slave
trade works through factors that are internal to the individual, such as
cultural norms, beliefs, and values.
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/nunn/files/Trust_v6.pdf
Sarah – I was actually trying to mislead you, Chris and others on the geographical location of Orania (you know – the old apartheid style of divide and rule?). Orania is situated somewhere Sout-South West of Kimberley – near Luckhoff and Petrusville – but still in the Northern Cape, and, yes, it is part of the Karoo. The rest of my post above, however, is true. Google it!
Skhokho – “there are mansions in Soweto, eg The late Godfather of Soweto has a Mansion there so is a lot other people.” … Exactly! Some have pig-leather ceilings. Some have nine or more bedrooms. Most of them have large LCD or Plasma TV’s. Most of them have beautiful women living inside of them. … However, how many murders, robberies, rapes and burglaries have there been encountered in those mansions (as opposed to in the abodes of the much poorer people of Soweto)? … And then again, compare those figures to the stats in other (white) towns or cities. … If you honestly do the computations, I think you might find that Michael Osborne has a point (like always).
Perhaps Brandon isn’t so stupid after all and all right-minded people should be seeking refugee status in other countries, because if the ANC continue in their path to seek and destroy every functioning institution in this country, there will be nothing left.
Our Minister of Basic Education is attempting to push through regulations which will prevent schools from topping up teachers’ salaries. The resultant effect could be disastrous to our education system, leaving us with more ill-equipped youth and less job creation.
This article is quite terrifying for me as a parent, and it should be very worrying for everyone in this country:
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=142271&sn=Detail
Samantha, thank you for the link. And I have to say with respect, the ANC’s capacity to resist logic is quite awesome. Drag the top down as opposed to trying to raise the bottom: that is just daft. And this course certainly appears to be in keeping with the ANC’s apparent goal of crippling core institutions.
Skhokho is right. Soweto is incomparably richer than Sandton.
I support the Justice for Hlophe J. group. Kriegler J (ret.) and now Tutu are surely racists. But I do think the Justice for Hlophe group should now turn their efforts to ensuring the Motata J is placed on the Constitutional Court.
I am not saying that Motata J should immediately become CJ. But I do think he should be “groomed” for that position.
@PM, thanks for the link, will read the article.
@Leigh and Chris Mcdaniel, i’m straight as they come, and do not find white man attractive at all. I like women.
Just like HIV/AIDS, there is no vaccine yet for HLOPHEPHOBIA ….
Is Black on White Crime in South Africa racially motivated?
Know any journalist who is willing to put their money where their mouth is, on their opinion? A blogger journalist is willing to put a Krugerrand (R10,000) on her opinion that black on white murder, rape and assault is racially motivated….
Any journalist willing to put thier money where their mouth is, and take the bet?
Hell, Pierre, do you regard an estate agent’s sales talk as good “evidence” to put forward? I don’t think it would work in a court of law.
But seriously, living not too far from Mowbray, I would argue there are two Mowbrays: the so-called little Mowbray, that’s largely gentrified and quite a nice place to hang out (the estate agent’s description would more or less work for that area, and I suspect you lived there, Pierre – given that you live to tell the tale); and the Mowbray closer to Main Road, which I avoid like the plague. If our man Huntley was mugged as many times as he claims, it would probably have been in that vicinity. (But what on earth was he doing there, the dunce? Looking for recreational drugs?). I guess my opinions on the less pleasant part of Mowbray reveal me to be a (closet) racist, like all Whiteys…
Did 142 Academics Get it WRONG on Crime?, PoliticsWeb
In the letter, addressed to the Charge d’Affaires of Canada in South Africa, the signatories protested that “it is simply untrue that white people are being targeted disproportionately. ………..
Given the eminence of the signatories, their sheer weight in numbers, and its apparent plausibility, this assertion has gone largely unquestioned. But is it true? A number of crime victimisation surveys have been conducted over the past decade. Do they support, or contradict, the claims of this combination of learned academics?……………. [facts from surveys......]
Politicsweb did contact four of the signatories asking for the sources for their claims on crime. At the time of publication this had not been supplied……
Another question is why over a hundred of our top academics appended their signature to a document without (apparently) interrogating its factual accuracy?.
Very, Very Good Question…
Easy Answer…. White Guilt Poverty Pimping is Quite the Rage these days in Academia… ??