Maybe we are all suffering from abuse-of-power-fatigue? What with the probably unlawful dropping of charges against President Jacob Zuma, the probably unlawful firing of Vusi Pikoli as National Director of Public Prosecutions (NDPP), the clearly unlawful granting of “medical parole” to Schabir Shaik – that “terminally ill” (ha!) friend of President Zuma’s - (the same friend who was convicted of bribing the President), the appointment of a clearly unfit Menzi Simelane as the head of the NDPP, and the alleged appointment of world class homophobe and lover of Motata tea, John Qwelane, as ambassador to Uganda, we have become used to actions that undermine our Constitution and the law.
Still, I do not understand why there has not been more outrage about the Mail & Guardian report that Justice Minister Jeff Radebe has been working hard to secure a new job for Mokotedi Mpshe, who was responsible for the dropping of charges against President Jacob Zuma. Radebe has now finalised Mpshe’s appointment as acting judge in the North West Provincial Division after first trying to get him a post in the Western Cape. This sets him on a path towards a more permanent position on the Bench.
There are three reasons why this appointment is scandalous and perhaps unlawful.
First, while section 175(2) of the Constitution states that “[t]he Cabinet member responsible for the administration of justice must appoint acting judges to other courts after consulting the senior judge of the court on which the acting judge will serve”, this provision must be read in the light of the separation of powers doctrine and the constitutional guarantee of judicial independence. The present convention that gives effect to these principles is that the Judge President identifies candidates for appointment as acting judges and that the Minister then appoints them. The Minister is not supposed to canvass for a particular candidate.
This convention finds strong constitutional support in section 165(2) and (3) of the Constitution and the power of the Minister is in effect qualified by these provisions which states:
(2) The courts are independent and subject only to the Constitution and the law, which they must apply impartially and without fear, favour or prejudice.
(3) No person or organ of state may interfere with the functioning of the courts.
Judges need to be both impartial and independent. Even when they will be impartial it does not mean they will be independent. Because judges – even acting judges – might be called upon to hear cases in which the government of the day has an interest or is a party to, the separation of powers doctrine and the guarantees of an independent and impartial judiciary require the Minister not to take an active role in the appointment of acting judges.
If the Minister took an active role in such appointments and if that judge then later has to hear a case in which the government of the day has an interest, it would be akin to the Minister having chosen a judge to hear the government’s case and this would fundamentally erode the independence of the judiciary. This is because there would be a reasonable apprehension that the judge, who was only appointed because the Minister put pressure on the Judge President to appoint him, would not act without fear, favour or prejudice.
Second, in this case the problem is compounded by the fact that Mpshe was the acting head of the NDPP who controversially did the President and the governing party a HUGE favour by dropping all charges against its candidate for President shortly before the election. What is worse, he justified his decision by plagiarising an overturned Hong Kong Court decision and without referring at all to the prosecution policy to which he is constitutionally bound and which should have guided him in the decision. One would have to be very gullible not to have serious doubts (in law we would call it “a reasonable apprehension”) about the independence and impartiality of Mpshe and of his ability to resist political pressure.
Lastly, Mpshe I am told is still employed at the NPA. If this is correct, the appointment would surely not only be scandalous but also unconstitutional. Although members of the NPA fall administratively under the Ministry of Justice, they have a constitutional duty to act independently. Nevertheless, NPA members (like Mpshe) are state employees and are subject to the authority of the NDPP. A member of the NPA cannot serve two masters by being both subject to the authority of Simelane and subject only to the Constitution and the law which he must apply without fear, favour or prejudice. Although Mpshe might act impartially he would not be able to be independent because he is still a civil servant!
In the case of Law Society of Lesotho v The Prime Minister and Another the Lesotho Appeal Court nullified the appointment of an Adv Peete, a member of the Attorney General’s Office, as an acting judge, affirming the principle that justice should not only be done but should be seen to be done. “Nothing is to be done which creates even a suspicion that there has been an improper interference with the course of justice”, the court said and continued:
Peete AJ’s official duty as a Judge may compel him to give decisions most unpopular to his one time and future superiors, or even to castigate them or their subordinates for the manner in which cases have been conducted. And then he is to return to work under his superiors!
The independence of judges does not only rely on the question of whether an appointee will indeed be impartial in his judgments and capable of acting independently, argued the court. The public’s right to feel confidence in the independence of judges is in itself part of the concept of independence. Where a current member of the NPA is appointed as acting judge the public would have no such confidence. Where that man is also the man who took a highly controversial decision to let the most powerful citizen off the hook and save his political bacon, the situation could not be clearer.
It may be that Mpshe will act in an exemplary fashion as acting judge. He may display the kind of impartiality we can only dream of. After all, as an apartheid Minister of Justice once remarked: “The problem with these judges are that once they are appointed they think they are there on merit and they start thinking for themselves”.
This is not the point though. The point is that the appointment of Mpshe and the involvement of the Minister undermines respect for the independence of the judiciary (which is distinct from the impartiality of a particular candidate) and creates a reasonable suspicion that Mpshe is being rewarded for unlawfully dropping charges against the President. Whether this is true or not, it creates a reasonable apprehension of bias on the part of the particular acting judge and undermines the independence of the judiciary.
This appointment is an unseemly and probably unlawful one. The Bar Council, surely, has a duty to take up this matter and challenge the appointment in court if need be? The integrity of our legal system is surely at stake.
i agree.
We had a similar situation here in Cape Town in the 1970’s. Braam Lategan – these days John Hlophe’s partner in a wine farm near Paarl – was the Attorney-General. Thereafter he became a Judge of the Cape Provincial Division. More senior folk reading this will recall that Lategan, as A-G, successfully prosecuted Ronald Cohen of Constantia in 1970 (before Judge Andries Beyers) for the murder of Cohen’s young wife – whom Cohen smashed over the head with a statuette at the couple’s Constantia home.
In a particularly fruitful period in the mid 1980’s, Lategan reputedly sent more than twenty human beings to the gallows. It is no wonder than many of us find the bottled produce from Domaine Brahms to be a disconcerting shade of red.
Embarrassingly for Lategan the then Appellate Division has to correct his decisions so frequently that they were rather scathing about him in a least one, if not more, judgments. (It was more than a reversal of a decision!)
Prof,
One wonders whether Mpshe AJ (Designate) has the ability to write a judgment? This is not a racist comment but an observation throughout the ages relating to the quality of work of judicial officers.
I, for one, would have thought that Mpshe’s Zuma ‘judgment’ would have been his own unaided work?
I also sat glued to the television that day wondering where he got the judgment from? I realised that it was a judgment from somewhere outside of South Africa as it lacked the constitutional buzzwords which one – as a constitutional scholar of the UWC PdeV Constitutional Law Class – one would expect to hear.
I found it most uncomfortable. It had the ring out someone trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
In light of the recent Hoho judgement I better just keep quiet.
The Hoho judgment is no laughing matter:
http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2008/98.html
I cannot fault the criticisms that have been levelled against Radebe and presumably the people within the ANC camp at whose behest he acts – and nor would I want to for both he and they deserve every bit of it. But not for the first time, I do wonder whether the substance and gravity of those criticisms are reaching a broad enough range of people. That is, the messages are exactly right. But the question becomes whether those messages are being framed in the most suitable ways – and by suitable, I mean couched in ways that stand the best chances at resonating with as wide a range of people as possible.
Let us look at how some of those criticisms are currently framed – and here I have taken some liberties in that the formulations reflected herein are my own but hopefully these formulations reflect accurately enough the tone and content of some of the criticisms ventured over the last several months. One criticism is that Radebe, his masters and his affiliates are out to reduce the extent to which core institutions can serve as obstacles to the ANC. This criticism is pretty easy to substantiate: we had the appointment of Simelane as NDPP – a man so far down Zuma’s pocket that he spends his days both (a) counting small change and (b) contemplating the absence of condoms. And now we have constitutional enemy Radebe lobbying for a judicial appointment of an obvious Zuma lackey – which, as the Professor made out, goes to eroding the judiciary’s integrity in that the citizenry has every reason to believe that Mpshe would be partial to government. And that would be so even in the absence of Mpshe’s well-documented history of clumsy and timid partisanship to Zuma.
Quite frankly, the foregoing already amounts to a damning indictment. But it seems to me that if the people of this country are listening to it, then most of them just aren’t hearing it. So as I suggested a little earlier, the question is: how can this situation be remedied? That is, how should our political commentators frame this so that enough people in our country start to take it in that the ANC’s assault on our core institutions represents a grave threat that we absolutely have to deal with?
The sad reality, Leigh, is that most South Africans do not think or care very much about a concept as abstract as judicial independence. Issues like crime, service delivery, the Word Cup, and, perhaps, the President’s sexual morality, feature much more prominently.
Your concerns are part of a debate amongst a small (albeit quite powerful), elite.
One cannot but agree wholeheartedly.
But that part about the Bar Council…..
You must be joking. The’re these days a subcommittee of the BLA. They’re probably totally in favour of the guys’ acting appointment!!
Michael, I agree: most South Africans really could care less. I think that there are at least two reasons for that and those reasons are really just aspects of what you rightly call the ‘abstract’ nature of judicial independence. The first is that all of this talk of judicial independence and constitutionalism might seem awfully high-minded to salt-of-the-earth sort of South Africans. The second is that many South Africans probably don’t see this hugely important concept as being immediately relevant to their lives. Accordingly, they just dismiss it themselves or effectively allow others to dismiss it for them.
What I would like to determine is whether our political writers have considerd earnestly enough whether there are ways to make the import and relevance of judicial and also prosecutorial independence – and incidently, the gravity of the ANC’s transgressions – more accessible to the citizenry. The right message articulated in the wrong way is typically pretty useless.
Here’s a cause worthy of everyone’s support :
————————————————————————————————–
PUBLIC PARTICIPATION IN EDUCATION NETWORK (PPEN)
We come together as concerned South Africans committed to public education to issue a Call for public participation in education.
Our system of education is in crisis. Despite good intentions, we continue to propagate a two-tier educational system – one for the children of the rich, and another for the children of the urban and rural poor. Our scores in literacy, numeracy and critical thinking skills show how much the education system continues to reproduce the characteristics of apartheid education. We cannot simply continue to lay the blame for this crisis on the educators alone or on learners in poor rural and urban schools. As a nation we have not successfully created the conditions for educational success in these schools.
http://www.ppen.org.za/call.aspx
I must agree with you Prof when you that the public (or a reasonable human being) might or probably will have perception that Mphse (AJ) won’t discharge his duties and perform his functions independently and impartially even though he may try to do so. I think the media is failing to inform the citizenry about this abstract phrase “judicial independence” as Leigh have said. Our people need to educated about the dangers of ignoring the transgressions of the constitution and the law that we often see daily in South Africa. Fortunately, we as jurists and law students can easily foresee that Radebe was influenced by his political ends in coming to that decision.
I have read that piece of writing Magg and I fully agree with it but is it plausible in SA ?
Ntanjana A says:
February 8, 2010 at 17:29 pm
Ntanjana – It’s an extract that I copied and pasted – hopefully it will get ppen more support.
Ppen is doing excellent work around literacy and education, with real outcomes – it is indeed plausible.
Your support will go a long way.
Prof. Madam Hellen Zille and other anti-transformation forces must be extremely pleased with your posting today. She will be over the moon especially afer reading the blogger’s comments. If the DA is one of the sponsors , your stipend will undoubtedly be trippled. But please prof. don’t forget to share it with leigh !! He sounds like an intriguing character.
Prof. Madam Hellen Zille and other anti-transformation forces must be extremely pleased with your posting today. She will be over the moon especially afer reading the blogger’s comments. If the DA is one of the sponsors , your stipend will undoubtedly be trippled. But please prof. don’t forget to share it with leigh ! He sounds like an intriguing character.
Suspending a top scientist for expressing an opinion related to the science is utter madness – certainly, in my view, more of an attack on our democracy than the Minister trying to redeploy Mpshe.
If the M&G article is accurate, then it’s one of the most outrageous things that have happened in our country.
“Top international scientists have expressed shock at the suspension of a leading astronomer in South Africa this week. The fallout has raised fears that the country could lose its bid to host one of the largest science projects on Earth. …
“The trouble apparently started when Charles told peers that Observatory in Cape Town, near the city’s universities, is his preferred site for the headquarters of MeerKAT and the SKA.”
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-02-05-nrf-suspends-top-gun
Anonymous, I am not following your argument. Do you disagree with my analysis? If you do, why do you disagree? If not, why do you prattle on about Helen Zille? Your post is reactionary and deeply anti-democratic as you do not engage with the issues but attempt to delegitimize criticism without engaging at all with the substance of an argument. Won’t work here. It’s the approach of a person who believes criticism in is not allowed – which is not what a constitutional democracy is about. It would be nice if you tried to engage with my argument by providing some reasons why the appointment of Mpshe as acting judge after the intervention of the Minister does not fly in the face of the separation of powers doctrine and the basic requirements for an independent judiciary. Just a thought.
Prof. being a follower of the “judiciary” or legal fraternity, it is very difficult for the poor black citizenship that lives in the township to understand your argument. I have heard very little support from you on any black appointment to the bench. I understand that you feel you are protecting the integrity of the judiciary by trying to make sure that you have so called “COMPETENT” appointments. While growing up in the townships of Port Elizabeth I had the fortunate experience of understanding the judiciary. In the late eighties and early nineties we had what we called gun slingers in our township. These boys would shoot and kill many. They would be hunted by the police and arrested, but the following day would be back on the street on free bail. All the magistrates and judges then were white judges. They let these boys loose in our mist to kill and maim again. We saw the very judges who set free criminals convict children for having a pamphlet with nelson Mandela’s name. How then do I trust these judges knowing that they are still practising? Who shall I trust more; black judges appointed for whatever reason or white judges who we never trusted in the first place. I am not saying there were no progressive judges but what I am trying to show you is how difficult it is for us as lay folk to believe this judicial independence that you talk about. How do you think it must feel for a black person to stand in front of a white judge/magistrate? That is why we need more black judges. If they can’t be mentored and developed quickly then they must be fast tracked, otherwise or township folks will always feel they are still standing in front of the oppressor when in court.
The Afrikaners were able to change their course in life by fast tracking their own, why is it such a sin now?
Anonymous, I mentioned to you in another discussion that you couldn’t argue your way out of grade school and instead of trying to rebut that view, you simply prove it. You either ignored or failed to understand the grounds offered in support of the view that Radebe’s behaviour was objectionable. And honestly I think it would be too kind by far to suppose that you merely ignored those grounds. So let’s start with one of them and we’ll see how well you do: Mpse has a history of bowing to political pressure. Given that history, people would be justified in believing that he would do so again. Having a judge a judge on the bench who one might reasonably suspect of bias in favour of government can clearly undermine public confidence in the courts.
If you are interested in responding to this point and thus avoiding your typical tendency to irrelevance, do everyone a favour first: first show that you have understood the foregoing point. If you are able to show that you understand the foregoing argument about why Radebe acted objectionably (and from what I’ve seen, that is no small ‘if’ by any means) then feel free to say why the claim is an invalid one. I would be interested to see you achieve this. Frankly, I don’t think you’re up to it.
Thomas says:
February 8, 2010 at 21:18 pm
“How do you think it must feel for a black person to stand in front of a white judge/magistrate?”
The need for demographic balance is certainly an important element in the transformation of the judiciary.
The essence of the argument here however, is whether or not the appointment of a member of the NPA as an acting judge is proper.
It’s wrong for government ministers in our constitutional democracy to do whatever they please.
The argument that the apartheid government did worse is, for the lack of a better expression, simply sick.
THomas, I am painfully aware of the problems regarding the legitimacy of the judiciary. But I happen to think one does not enhance that legitimacy by doing in reverse what the National Party did (by appointing the Braam Lategans and LC Steyns to the court). As a democracy we can surely do better than the apartheid government? One definitely does not do so with active involvement of the Minister of Justice. If the Minister had interfered to get Hartzenberg J appointed to the Constitutional Court I would have been equally disturbed (well, more so).
@ Pierre.
“A DESTITUTE woman has failed in her high court bid to stop the eviction of her family from their Ginsberg home, largely because her lawyers ran her case in a “grossly unreasonable and negligent” manner, the Grahamstown High Court has found.”
http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=378606
Is this not a serious miscarriage of justice?
Was it not incumbent on the judge in that matter to remedy that and ensure that the interests of Ms Pumla January was adequately protected?
Anonymous is right.
It is now clear Madam Helen “Botox” Zille and the anti-tranformationist liberals are leading a conspiracy against Cd. Mpshe. We must LEARN from the Afrikaners, who were able to achieve a remarkable transformation of the bench via strategic appointments.
It is the LIBERALS we cannot trust. The Afrikaners, though sometimes unfair, have shown the way forward!
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
February 9, 2010 at 6:42 am
Hey Dworky – you are called to duty again. The “Save Ndamase Campaign (SNC)” needs to be started.
“A MAGISTRATE facing 42 charges of misconduct has failed in her attempt to replace her all-white tribunal with an all-black one.
“Ndileka Ndamase, a Pretoria magistrate, had demanded an all-black panel because “black magistrates are discriminated against” and she would therefore not get a fair hearing.”
http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1112262
Some of those charges are clearly trumped up.
* neglecting her duties by sleeping in court,
* not following evidence,
* showing no interest in the case and failing to make notes,
If she was in fact “sleeping in court” how did they expect her to follow evidence, show interest in the case and make notes????
Maggs, thank you for alerting me to this latest racist outrage.
Please note, however, that the new entity will be called FON (”Friends of Ndamase”), and not SNC (”Save Ndamase Campaign.)
Thanks again, though.
I concur , Thomas raises a valid point > the previous SA dispensation i.e pre 1994 had method in their madness in fact it was tantamount to unleashing havoc on the innocent ! I remember the media at the time reporting on such issues in the town ships! I recently had a run in if you may call it that with a very SNR Afrikaaner presiding officer in court on a very simple matter! In fact his attitude was almost “godlike” to quote zuma!(strongly revolted by this quote tho). This old crock intrigued me to such an extent that I chose to sit thru most of his morning session ( not that I had the time) highlighting some of his most illogical , uncontrollable outbursts, His bad language, vulgarity & refusal to address or speak to any of the alleged accused who were English speaking. He would ramble a few words in Afrikaans waiting for the interpreter to ascertain what he mumbled repeat himself and made absolutely no eye contact with any persons in the court room. This back and fourth continued until I decided to address the court by which time his attitude drastically altered. By the same token I was most astonished to find that his colleagues, other officers of the court & the likes found his tantrums entertaining? Needless to say I have recommended his misconduct be reviewed.
My point… @ risk of thrashing out a protracted list of events, transformation in the judiciary is long overdue! The tempo is far to slow. However the appointments need to be carefully calculated…affirmative action in the judiciary is seriously wanton of corrective justice (regstellende aksie), which in the opinion of many retrospectively does not have justification (not all whites were responsible for apartheid & neither did all benefit from it> S 9(2) of the constitution is therefore transitional.S172(2) is the more sensible sound statute which in my opinion and that of many has long standing benefits and corrective in the process. Mpshe`s appointment is simply erroneous.
But it’s a huge dream of naïve South Africans to think that racial transformation in the judiciary is going to create the right balance & is a saving grace. Political tampering will always be a thorn in the side of the righteous. I believe Lady Justice will be repeatedly raped till the cows are all sold for lobola..
“Friends of Ndamase”
her application, was dismissed ; no basis …LOL
most times the race card works
Democracy is over rated. There is very little progress in this country, mainly because of bogus appointments. We have civil servants acting as judges and political appointments in administrative positions….etc. The reason I have a problem with democracy is because we can all b*tch and moan and complain, send letters to the editor, write blogs but at the end of the day those who control the state can do what they like. The opposition is just as hopeless. I really dont see the benefit of freedom of expression if my concerns can just be ignored
Ehud Olmert says:
February 9, 2010 at 9:48 am
For whatever it’s worth, this is an interesting document
“Beyond Polokwane: Safeguarding South Africa’s Judicial Independence JULY 2008″ – http://www.ibanet.org/Document/Default.aspx?DocumentUid=4C7E8C0F-652D-44BD-A459-D9AC85D6872E
The past was indeed horrendous. The manipulation/influencing of the institutions during the previous administration was unacceptable.
This administration was supposed to fix up the kak, not emulate it.
We’ve done with the comparisons with apartheid, the worst of Clinton and Mitterrand – it is starting, in many respects, to look like the political equivalent of Frankenstein’s monster, cobbled together in large parts to resemble the worst from everywhere else.
How long is it going to be before all that we are left with is to compare ourselves with the lawless Somalia or the like?
@ Maggs
Yesterday on Metro FM , there was a launch of SMART(Social Movement Against Racism Tendencies) http://www.smartsa.org.za
This group intends to match Afri-forum at every level in challenging racist acts towards black people. There is a preparation for an official luanch on 21 march.
http://www.metrofm.co.za/djs/sakina-kamwendo/The-Launch-of-S.M.A.R.T
@ Gwebecimele
Thanks for alerting us to SMART.
Is there any way we on this blog could make a practical contribution? Or, at least, make donations?
It is, indeed, high time, that someone drew attention to the racist underpinning of the relentless persecution of persons like Hlophe JP, Motata J, and now, Mag. Ndamase.
Maggs Naidu says:
February 9, 2010 at 11:13 am
“For whatever it’s worth, this is an interesting document”
Agreed >>
But unlike Some & the like ; our constitution was not a product of Lancaster House!
It was the painstaking laborious task of many .. including civil society>> We might have made some strange voting choices lately and missed the proverbial boat with Motlante & Cyril but BoB`s not our Uncle!!
Gwebecimele says:
February 9, 2010 at 11:22 am
“This group intends to match Afri-forum at every level in challenging racist acts towards black people. There is a preparation for an official luanch on 21 march.”
So far they have managed a parked website.
While we wait for that movement to get up and running here’s some interesting reading :
http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1112253
http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1112167
http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/article298952.ece
http://www.citypress.co.za/Content/SouthAfrica/News/2168/20baa8f0960d460d99e00235beaad222/07-02-2010-01-00/Corrupt_civil_servants_are_%E2%80%98untouchables%E2%80%99
Democracy?!?!
so what is it you propose? Marxism , Fascism , Communism?
No wait cant seriously be Marxism in SA? Marxism advocates monogamous marriage as guaranteeing male social domination of women, a concept in communist theory.
SA is essentially a multi faceted polygamous nation>>
@ Dworky
I suspect this is not a support group for lawyers in conflict with the law but they will take up genuine cases.
@ Maggs
I just hope SMART will not look the other way when the govt is also at fault.
Gwebecimele says:
February 9, 2010 at 17:58 pm
“I just hope SMART will not look the other way when the govt is also at fault.”
There seems to be the view that critique equates to lack of patriotism whereas the opposite is true.
In a heated debate recently I had to point out that our government has done exceeding well in a whole range of areas, but that while laudable, it is what we ought to expect from it.
On the other hand re those things that are not up to scratch we should not pretend that it is ok by maintaining silence or defending the bad on the back of the gains that we have made.
Expressing strong views is neither disloyal nor unpatriotic – in my view the opposite is true.
Agreed on everyone’s comments and the post, just two things, some people still cannot see the world without mentioning their race, one commentator asked how a black must feel in front of a white judge and another speaks of a movement that is also racially based and counters everything Afriforum does, when I read this, I literally took my right hand, chest hight, and stroked an imaginary penis, because you see the premise is simply untrue. If you have you a good coprehension, you could use the opportunity to blog on this site to show it, that’s my humble opinion, thank you.
Just think about it: who knows how a black must feel in front of anyone, a judge, his mother, your mother or a white, chinese anything for that matter, nobody knows what the answer is not even the professor, so next time you feel that others don’t appreciate the fact that you have feelings go see a shrink and pay the fees, don’t expect others to shrink your mind for free OK?
Gwebecimele says:
February 9, 2010 at 17:58 pm
@ Dworky
I suspect this is not a support group for lawyers in conflict with the law but they will take up genuine cases.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes I deem we will leave those in variance to the support group located in the BLA. J Kriegler is an honorary member. Naturally curing the affliction of confliction among lawyers>> help is just a phone call away 0800 The Judicial Service Commission. For substantive transformation I can guarantee LSSA.
@ “Democracy” NB – the mechanisms in place.
Now to structure a support group for those in the legal fraternity who by definition are not racist, their behavior conversely noted however they remain victims of smear campaigns or drunk at the time > I sanction we call the group RID (racism in disguise)? I tend to agree with you “Dworkin” the Afrikaaners have shown the way forward. Why bandy about with reverse racism.
“law is always a matter of historical fact and never depends on morality”
“Plain facts” as you should know is the answer. Contingent sections in the constitution to eradicate racism and promote balance / restitution should be more vigorously executed on SA society as was in the near distant past.
@ Friend
Never underestimate what Black people have gone through in this country and we must also not fool ourselves and pretend everything has a changed.
As a Black person, 90% of the time I sit infront of White person for interview, performance review, Credit application, Kid’s teacher, Doctor, Judge etc. The daily processes and outcomes of these interactions with varying degrees of unfair treatment are a constant reminder of who we are.
Lets turn this around. Why do Whites need afri-forum?
It is interesting that in the past we were continously reminded that we were kaffirs and now we should not mention our race? Who makes these rules?
@ Friend
You have answered yourself, ” You do not know how black man infront of a white man.” So you do not have the experience, step aside.
OK, Gwebecimele, I’m not saying I’m not sentimental, because I too have emotions, but the thing is if we discuss government, legislature, executive and parliment, there’s no feelings, just policies. If I go to an interview, I show my experience and give a bit of info about myself and leave the ball in the potential employer’s court, most of those interviewers are black and I don’t expect anything just an assessment based on what they saw, I’m happy, and I bet that you have the same opportunities except maybe getting invited to more interviews, but you definately should never show any signs of needing anything from anyone but to read your CV and make a discision, they have already done so before inviting you to an interview all you got to do is show yourself with a smile. Forget the past when you’re in front of a white interviewer be it a judge, teacher or doctor, because they’re not out to get you.
@ Gwebecimele
“we were continously reminded that we were kaffirs and now we should not mention our race?”
Gweb is right.
The best way to get over the racial categorisations of the past is to relentlessly emphasise them in the future.
No one can argue with that.
Unless off course the interviewers just had the most awesome interview with the most spontanious person in the boardroom, but they realize they cannot appoint him/her because of their skin colour and this left them feeling unscertain and the next interview is with your sorry ass that will acuse them of all kinds, I’m carrying on and I have work to do. Shot for the exchange bro.
Gwebecimele says:
February 10, 2010 at 9:03 am
@ Friend
Never underestimate what Black people have gone through in this country and we must also not fool ourselves and pretend everything has a changed.
As a Black person, 90% of the time I sit infront of White person for interview, performance review, Credit application, Kid’s teacher, Doctor, Judge etc. The daily processes and outcomes of these interactions with varying degrees of unfair treatment are a constant reminder of who we are.
Lets turn this around. Why do Whites need afri-forum?
It is interesting that in the past we were continuously reminded that we were kaffirs and now we should not mention our race? Who makes these rules?
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Gwebecimele, this is a cop out if i may be so bold to point out>
I am not of the fairer race, my dark skin coulour never defines me! I have been thru rigorous applications as stated above and All i might add have been before “white persons” who prodded , challenged , Critiqued , measured & exploited by their own yardstick> My formal education or the paucity thereof was an english medium school in the forefront of struggles of which the boycotts were our very defining nature. hence my pedantic traits. But I cannot accept ill behavior from my very own ppl turn a blind eye , shrug my shoulders and designate such endeavors to the principle “an eye for an eye”? by this very same token
while watching the news and seeing the torching of the only library in a village take flames to drive a point home to build more schools, i cannot but wonder back to the words i seen somewhere>>
“Bombing for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity” ??
@ Friend
Now that you say it, I honestly believe you, racism is gone.
We all have equal opportunities and there will never be another racist act in this country. How brilliant, where have you been?
@ Dworky
Speak for yourself, I have no intention getting over the racial categorisation, not for now. I support the intention race based policies to address the imbalances of the past.
Suprise, suprise! See this:
GENERAL COUNCIL OF THE BAR OF SOUTH AFRICA
Admitted at The Hague on 21 August 1948
as a full member of the International Bar Association
Sandown Village, Telephone: 011 784-0175/0178/0179
Second floor, West Court Telefax: 011 784 0182
86 Maude Street E-mail: gcb@mweb.co.za
SANDTON
2146
All correspondence should be addressed to:
P O Box 786878, Sandton 2146
______________________________________________________________________
(Embargo: for immediate release]
PRESS RELEASE
The General Council of the Bar of S.A. (“GCB”) has learned with dismay and concern that the Minister of Justice (‘the Minister”) has appointed Adv Mpshe, a State employee, to act as a judge.
At the Heads of Court meeting in October 2008, the GCB expressed its concern about the appointment of State employees such as members of staff of the State Attorney’s office, the Asset Forfeiture Unit and the National Prosecuting Authority (“NPA”) as acting judges.
The then Chief Justice had promised to place the matter on the agenda of the meeting of the Heads of Court and the Judicial Service Commission (“JSC’).
To the best of our knowledge the JSC decided against state employees acting as judges. We also believe that some discussion took place between the then Minister and the JSC on this issue.
In the light of the above the GCB calls on the Minister to withdraw, or at least suspend, the appointment of Adv Mpshe as an acting judge pending verification by him of the above. In this regard it is necessary to disclose that the GCB wrote to the Minister on 5 February 2010 with a request that he urgently address this issue but that as at the time of the release of this statement no response had been received.
The GCB believes very strongly that the employment of State employees as acting judges undermines the independence of the judiciary.
ADV P M MTSHAULANA SC
CHAIRMAN
10 02 2010
ehud olmert says:
February 10, 2010 at 9:57 am
“my dark skin coulour never defines me!”
Interesting!
How did you escape it?
@ Ehud
I do not support torching of libraries or destruction of service delivery instruments for whatever reason.
Can you think about this for a moment, Will this continue to happen if public officials were responding to public complaints, timeosly and efficiently? This is a cry for help and a request to be heard. The common trend amongst these uprisings is that the public officials are neither there to respond to the people or are simply arrogant or scared to face the music. Promises have been made to the people and their patience was stretched to the limits. The fact that there might be opportunist elements amongst the protesters does not take away corruption and poor service delivery.
In Khutsong, people shut down schools and burnt down council houses to reverses an unpopular beaurocratic decision about their future being imposed on them. Lekota threatened them with soldiers and ANC refused to listen to them until they also boycotted local polls which had a 3 % turnout. In Bushbuckridge the Premier did not respond to request for meetings and later missed 3 meetings which he accepted on the same community. It might be easy to judge from your lounge and even the people of Haiti might seem impatient and grateful when they fight over food.
“Eye for an eye” Well if a pendulum moves to the right it has to come back to the left before moving to the centre other than that you are fooling yourself.
May be if the Fucking is directed at those who deflower virgins then it might work.
Come down your high horse
Coconut in the house
Gwebe is right.
We must focus on race.
Then, one day, it will go away.
Just wait and see.
Henri says:
February 10, 2010 at 10:16 am
Suprise, suprise! See this:
I believe the point of discussion has been accomplished>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maggs Naidu says:
February 10, 2010 at 10:17 am
ehud olmert says:
February 10, 2010 at 9:57 am
“my dark skin coulour never defines me!”
Interesting!
How did you escape it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I assume the words “Label , Delineate or Describe ” better explains my rhetoric. Semantics my Dear!
Coconut?? no more like top deck , my current screw is white >>
Is there any denying of the fact that to call a person a cocconut is a display of utmost racism?
ehud olmert says:
February 10, 2010 at 10:50 am
The semantics aside, it would be great if you explained a bit about how you managed to get people in all walks of life to see you as person independent of your skin colour.
Lessons will be learned by all – please share.
Maggs Naidu says:
February 10, 2010 at 10:59 am
contrary to the conventional thinking of the masses & perhaps some on this site, adopted siblings of different races, growing up and attending school in the western cape & supportive parents have done wonders for my less than white skin.
not that i needed to air such laundry here>>
just to tame the beasts !!
@ Maggs
Most people will, within minutes of meeting me, overlook my Slovenian/Ibo ancestry. Why, you ask? Largely because I pepper my chatter with references to great authors of Western literature, and have cultivated impeccable table manners.
Chris says:
February 10, 2010 at 10:56 am
Is there any denying of the fact that to call a person a cocconut is a display of utmost racism?
Well, only if you are white.
@ Ehud
Enjoy your top deck and the new found definition..
& here i thawt you were a WASP>
ehud olmert says:
February 10, 2010 at 11:11 am
“contrary to the conventional thinking of the masses & perhaps some on this site, adopted siblings of different races, growing up and attending school in the western cape & supportive parents have done wonders for my less than white skin.”
It was indeed a fortunate set of circumstances for you.
You will then appreciate that people who were not that lucky will have an entirely different outlook, life’s experiences and response to what they consider extremely challenging circumstances.
And by extension it was probably not a balanced conclusion in response to Gwebe that “this is a cop out”.
@ Ehud
What is special about Western Cape Schools?
Perhaps do they serve wine or grapes during breaks.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
February 10, 2010 at 11:27 am
“great authors of Western literature”
Matt Groening?
René Goscinny?
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind> Gandhi,
but then Gwembecile, you would be averse to such words simply because
Gandhi was not Black by our standards>>
My circumstances were not fortunate in any way on any given day!
The outward freedom that we shall attain will only be in exact proportion to the inward freedom to which we may have grown at a given moment. And if this is a correct view of freedom, our chief energy must be concentrated on achieving reform from within. We must become the change we want to see.
I do not want my house to be walled in on all sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.
Mohandas Gandhi >> read sometime “surely Maggs Naidu u of all ppl” ?
ehud olmert says:
February 10, 2010 at 12:21 pm
“My circumstances were not fortunate in any way on any given day!”
Is that from Gandhi?
I would think that all that which has “done wonders for (your) less than white skin” was fortunate – or am I missing something?
no actually that was me ! too much Matt Groening ?
“It was indeed a fortunate set of circumstances for you.
You will then appreciate that people who were not that lucky will have an entirely different outlook, life’s experiences and response to what they consider extremely challenging circumstances.”
I tend to live above my challenging circumstances & not in a box like others >>
@ Ehud
I guess you are the first non-white to achieve a true freedom. How did you achieve that, pls give advice?
corridors of the mind ; Gwembecile ! try it some time ..
hate harbors hate>>
ehud olmert says:
February 10, 2010 at 12:52 pm
“I tend to live above my challenging circumstances & not in a box like others”
I do hope that you will acknowledge that your ability to rise above that which life hands out was in part influenced by the extraordinary familial and social circumstances which very few people are fortunate to experience.
Your uniqueness to “live above my challenging circumstances”, while impressive and inspiring, should hopefully enable you to understand why others are confined to pretty regular lives.
Gwebecimele says:
February 10, 2010 at 11:32 am
In other words, you say racism is fine, as long as its aimed agains white people. I think its absolutely sick!
@ Chris
I do not support racism and oppression. I support equality, fairness, justice and RESPONSIBLE citizenship.
You missed my point. It is never acceptable for a white person to call a black person a coconut but a black might get away with it.
I did not say racism should be directed at white people.
Expressing strong views is neither disloyal nor unpatriotic – in my view the opposite is true.
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The argument that the apartheid government did worse is, for the lack of a better expression, simply sick.
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This administration was supposed to fix up the kak, not emulate it.
How long is it going to be before all that we are left with is to compare ourselves with the lawless Somalia or the like?
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I do not support racism and oppression. I support equality, fairness, justice and RESPONSIBLE citizenship.
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Speak for yourself, I have no intention getting over the racial categorisation, not for now. I support the intention race based policies to address the imbalances of the past.
I do not support racism and oppression. I support equality, fairness, justice and RESPONSIBLE citizenship.
You missed my point. It is never acceptable for a white person to call a black person a coconut but a black might get away with it.
You have answered yourself, ” You do not know how black man infront of a white man.” So you do not have the experience, step aside.
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@ Chris I too am totally confucked.
Ehud Olmert says:
February 11, 2010 at 9:31 am
“@ Chris I too am totally confucked”
So it seems!
@ Ehud.
I guess we need to deploy you in Zim and you wil receive free lessons.
I have no doubt they will sort you out.
There is one important point that Gwebecimele made that is being lost in the static.
Where we have service delivery riots: What do the cops do? How do they act?
It seems that the ANC-SAPS has the idea that black people can only be policed with a great deal of coercion and force. Will their style of policing become indistinct from that of the SAP?
That spells doom. There goes the rights culture and the idea of constitutionalism.
Public officials are never there, unresponsive, inefficient, arrogant? All of the above?
“Promises have been made to the people and their patience was stretched”
Davies’ J-Curve again. High expectations. Unmet promises. Frustration aggression. Explosions of anger.
Two important issues raised in this blog are being obfuscated: the independence of the judiciary and credibility-building by institutions. What is the general picture that is being formed? DO people believe in their institutions or are we shortly going to face another crisis of legitimacy (not JZ’s baby!)
Once again the ANC is letting the country down.
AND the SAPS? Are they playing with matches on a powder-keg?
Brett Nortje says:February 11, 2010 at 12:11 pmThere is one important point that Gwebecimele made that is being lost in the static.Where we have service delivery riots: What do the cops do? How do they act?It seems that the ANC-SAPS has the idea that black people can only be policed with a great deal of coercion and force. Will their style of policing become indistinct from that of the SAP?That spells doom. There goes the rights culture and the idea of constitutionalism.
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I am troubled to point out but the above comment has unfortunate basis ergo point of discussions in its entirely> what is more distressing is that it speaks of ANC-SAP(S) > As this topic of discussion suggests that the independence of the judiciary is constantly threatened by uninformed decision making and mismanagement at all levels. I believe as SA we have lost the plot > From a rainbow nation with promise, a culture of forgiveness guided by a constitution with a vision, we have submerged ourselves in the insignia of a gun totting , xenophobic ,violent , philandering , criminal society in all its bounty & @ all levels in SA from the salt of the earth sort to the high flyers to the fat cat bureaucrats in Government.
As pointed out by “Dworkin” , perhaps the answer lies in the fact that we should focus on racism and “it” will eventually “go away”.
Perhaps the transition to a peaceful democracy was far to fast to emulate the visions by some (mandela) retrospectively should anarchy have reigned 20 yrs ago wonder where would have been now?
Instead of ” the irony of figures in SA we achieved and still maintaining a WEE of more than 80% ownership and control of all sectors except for the TAXI AND TRADITIONAL HEALING.”??
Would have possibly been @ 100% ownership now? Ownership? Must look at the legal definition there! And while a living icon in the midst can only be used in a crisis to forgo adversity I cant but help to note that the icon has now become the symbol of the only pejorative term I can conger up “a Banana Republic” And while some profess to be liberated, without brand or tags and blissful with the current dispensation yet contradicting themselves at every point, my only response to all is the Fucking white man has power & will continue so over all!! I respectfully rest & have nothing further to add here!
It is interesting that an Acting Attorney-General is unfit to be an Acting Judge, what sorts of standards are involved there. I do not support Mphse for any posistion, merely because he is not the sharpest tool in the shed but I am trying to find logic and consistency behind this noise. Until we start seeing things for what they are we will have difficulties in drumming up support for a good cause. Our actions and incoherent selection of easy targets will create unnecessary resistance on many of the good efforts we embark upon.
Let us use the same yardstick on all involved irrespective of race, gender, background, citizenship etc.