There seems to be stand-off between the high brass of the police and the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA). Newspapers report that the police tapped the phones of the head of the Scorpions to try and ¨get¨ those who were investigating Police Commisioner, Jackie Selebi, then charged the çlead investigator in the Selebi matter, and now the police leadership is refusing to hand over documents needed for the Selebi case to the NPA.
Now this could get ugly. Surely our security is being threatened? Some would even call this a national security issue. Frene Ginwala say, or those ANC members on the ad hoc committee of Parliament who rubber stamped the decision of the President to get rid of Pikoli to ensure he does not charge the President of the ANC.
As the person who is responsible for national security – ostensibly the reason for the firing of Vusi Pikoli – one would have thought that the President would long ago have stepped in to ensure co-operation between these two organisations. Or to put it more bluntly: the President should long ago have taken steps to ensure that the police leadership does not try and derail the investigation against Selebi.
Yet, as far as we know, nothing is being done. Why? I smell a big, fat, stinking rat.
This suggests, first, that Selebi must be a very powerful man who holds some secrets that some in the ANC would rather not want to see revealed. What does Selebi know and who can he implicate? He must have some choice tidbits of scandal on the ANC that would make the Carl Niehaus scandal look like a sunday school picnic. Maybe he and Mendi Msimang – whose wife is being kept on as Minister who does nothing to ensure he does not sing about the ANC finances – should get together for a drink? Maybe they can invite Glen Agliotti….
Second, it shows just how spurious the reasons for Jackie Selebi`s suspension and ultimate firing have been. Surely, if the prosecuting authority and the police are at war with one another and the police leadership is trying to stop the proper investigation of the Police Commisioner who has admitted to being friends – ¨finish and klaar¨- with a mafia type drug lord and underworld kingpin, then sombody really concerned about so called national security would have stepped in.
But we do not hear a peep from the President and the stand-off between these two institutions continue.
Pikoli is now trying to argue before the High Court that ulterior motives animated his firing. Sadly there is no smoking gun here so although his firing was illegal it will not be that easy to prove because it is not easy to prove the real motive of those who claim a different motive
But
for ordinary citizens with at least two brain cells it must be very clear what is going on here. Pikoli was suspended by Mbeki because he wanted to arrest Selebi and now he was fired because the ANC wants to appoint a new NDPP who will find a ¨political solution¨for the Jacob Zuma case.
This in some weird way is understandable, because if Zuma actually has to face his day in court he will be destroyed when all the damaging evidence is brought to light about all the money he received from Shaik and all the favours he did for Shaik in return. Even if he is acquitted, most sane people will not trust him after a trial. So a trial must be stopped at all cost.
I am holding thumbs for Pikoli because as even that party hack Frene Ginwala found he is a man of the highest integrity. No wonder the ANc wants to get rid of him. Here`s a thought – pity Carl Niehaus does not have a law degree or could not have fabricated one as he could then have been appointed as NDPP. He would surely know how to deal with national security in a way that suits the ANC…
“Even if he is acquitted, most sane people will not trust him after a trial.”
I guess that was the intention right from the beginning. Thank for clearing that up for us Pierre and thanks for the vote of confidence in the constitution and our justice system.
“who has admitted to being friends – ¨finish and klaar¨- with a mafia type drug lord and underworld kingpin, ”
And the NPA had apparently no problems with credibility when accepting an avidafit from the very same, shadowy figure assuring them that he did not in fact murder Brett Kebble but “merely assisted him in committing suicide” – LOL
“merely assisted him in committing suicide”
Is euthanasia not against the law in SA? His affidavit sounds more like a confession…
OzOnEbLuE,
A good deal of evidence in criminal trials comes from … criminals – your point is not really a point.
Mike Atkins @ 4:06 pm
So you would also believe Agliotti – because he said so ?
Ah Ozone, back to normality after yesterday’s twilight zone moment
Firstly, again you’re tracking off point, trying to make this about things that it’s not. I’d prefer it if we could all keep our comments on this post about the reasons the ANC is not stepping in, and how this affects national security, given that this is apparently very easily threatened (as indicated by the firing of Pikoli)…but that’s just me. Conspiracy theories about JZ and his self-inflicted woes are irrelevant here.
Prof, spot on again…the only possible reason the pres is refusing to step in is because…well…dirty laundry should remain hidden I guess. If simply arresting Selebi would have threatened national security and taken us to the brink of civil war, I would imagine that different arms of law enforcement spying on each other outside of the mandate of an official investigation would be even more threatening…we already know that the metro and SAPS shoot at each other, how much further could it go with these guys?
But no, nothing will happen, because, well, the ANC only cared when there was actual danger to them…people like Pikoli, who might have actually done their job and caused a bit of embarrassment. Now, ag, national security…it’s SO overrated…
The Big Slipper @ 7:52 pm
Well : there is not much to say cause the rest of of the post is a lot of speculative bs. How would judge Harms put it : “personal conspiracy theories”. Take for example:
“Frene Ginwala say, or those ANC members on the ad hoc committee of Parliament who rubber stamped the decision of the President to get rid of Pikoli to ensure he does not charge the President of the ANC.”
“now he was fired because the ANC wants to appoint a new NDPP who will find a ¨political solution¨for the Jacob Zuma case.”
There is no way to prove or to disprove that : it is more wild, hysterical fear mongering – the ANC and the government being accused of things they haven’t even done yet. And all this rubbish being spouted while – as we speak the NPA is pushing ahead to prosecute Zuma WITHOUT PIKOLI.
Then we have the usual hypocrisy and double standards:
“I am holding thumbs for Pikoli because as even that party hack Frene Ginwala found he is a man of the highest integrity.”
One moment PdV attacks Ginwala as a “party hack”, then the next moment he finds her findings regarding Pikoli’s suitability for the job totally credible. So – as the cherry picking of the findings of reports and facts with a total lack of consistency in thought or argument and a total lack of logical analyses.
All I could say it is hight time that PdV ups his game.
Carl Niehaus has a way with obtaining degrees without actually earning them. Who knows? Maybe there’s some diploma mill that granted him a law degree.
If Selebi gets in the hot seat, the ANC will grant him absolution by show of hands again. Whatever. We’ll see what the polls hold, I think the ANC might get a surprise this time around.
ozoneblue // Feb 19, 2009 at 10:02 pm
You dont really understand much about the Ginwala report do you? alot of the findings were completely over stated and baseless with lack of evidence esp on the browse report, the warrents of arrest for selebi.
How can other political parties all find Pikoli creadiable and the ANC is the only one who finds pikoli to be a security threat?
Ozoneblue i think you need to up your game and step into the light trust me.
Selebi is on a fishing expedition he does not need all the documents to defend his corruption and defeating the ends of justice trial. He has have been given more than enough information to build his defence.
One cant help but see the same tactics being applied with Zuma
ZUMA : During Zuma’s ultimately unsuccessful bid to have the Scorpions’ warrants invalidated, it emerged that neither Zuma nor his lawyers had ever identified any of the documents seized as subject to attorney-client privilege
SELEBI: ALL documents must be handed over to SELEBI ATTorney – client privilege
ZUMA: claims he was the victim of a plot orchestrated by then president Thabo Mbeki and axed NPA head Vusi Pikoli
SELEBI: alleges that his corruption case is a campaign mounted against him in order to prevent the Scorpions’ merger with the police.
ZUMA: was implicated in receiving bribes from Shaiks
SELEBI: was implicated in receiving money from convicted drug trafficker Glen Agliotti
Both are being playing the victim card of trial by public and the media.
The problem that lies with SELEBI now is a go-nowhere inquiry will cost umpteen times to see if he was fit for office.
Ozoneblue
since you dont know much about law and about criminal law and it clearly shows with this staement of yours. let me educate you
“And the NPA had apparently no problems with credibility when accepting an avidafit from the very same, shadowy figure assuring them that he did not in fact murder Brett Kebble but “merely assisted him in committing suicide” – LOL”
Plea-bargaining is popularly and broadly associated with the practice that is carried out in the United States. In a plea-bargain the accused offers a plea of guilty in exchange for some benefit from the state, such as being able to plead to a lesser charge, a lower sentence being imposed or both. However, strictly speaking, plea-bargaining should only refer to the bargaining process concerning the plea. Sentence bargaining would more accurately refer to the process of bargaining by the accused in exchange for some benefit from the State concerning sentence.
Agliotti’s avidafit will be damning evidence against Selebi esp since the NPA has cash receipt. Agliotti’s avidafit is creadiable in a court of law. you dont like it tuff titties!!
Ozonblue i think you need to up your game!
@Pierre
I have to disagree with what you said here:
“Pikoli is now trying to argue before the High Court that ulterior motives animated his firing. Sadly there is no smoking gun here so although his firing was illegal it will not be that easy to prove because it is not easy to prove the real motive of those who claim a different motive”
There is circumstantial evidence with facts, when considered together, can be used to infer a conclusion about something unknown. He just needs to be backed up by one or more sources and the Ginwala Inquiry is one of those sources to prove that the president did not act in good faith another source will be the Ad hoc committee to prove that there was an ulterior purpose and is within his full right to call the MP’s to dock as witness’s
See how Lawrence Mushwana, our lack lustre public protector (see Asmals report on Ch 9 institutions, if you think I am being unfair) is being touted as a possible NDPP, also see how he has just conducted his own enquiry into Vali Moosa’s dealings and has made adverse comments about what ANC member Moosa has done. Surely he is the man for the job haveing demonstrated his independence and fearlessness by going after an ANC big wig like this
Smacks of a publicity stunt before he is offered the job methinks. The more things change, the more they stay the same…
It is dispeakable the manner that the ANC is abusing the law and the constituion to their own ends. The ad hoc parliamentary comnittee dealing with the Pikoli issue could not return any other vote but one that favours their boss. This is the nature of party politics. The ANC decided that pikoli must be fired and cadres deployed to parliament must adhere to this instruction. The committee was thus a sham or rubber stamping, whatever you want to call it.
I really can not understand why it is so difficult to understand that the ANC had to strike a deal with criminals to convict the commissioner. There is only one commissioner, who should be beyond reproach. I think it is unacceptable to society to compromise on the sanity of this office. If we must make deals with criminals to protect the office so be it. The only standard is that this must be done with integrity.
It is also very common practise to use information of criminals by way of plea bargaining and in some instances even becoming a Sec 204 witness and totally excused from prosecution if the judge finds you to be honest and forthcoming. The reason is that with organised crime it is only the syndicate members who can link certain people in other words the testimony of people who are guilty of crimes themselves are needed to convict other people.
“I really can not understand why it is so difficult to understand that the ‘ANC’ had to strike a deal with criminals to convict the commissioner.”
substitute ‘ANC’ with ‘NPA’
Open letter to Jacob Zuma on his candidacy for President
Dear Mr Zuma
Before your legal team makes representations to the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) tomorrow, I request that you put your ambitions aside and act in the interests of the country and the Constitution by publicly stepping down as the ANC’s presidential candidate.
Rather than creating a “bad precedent”, as you told your supporters outside the Pietermaritzburg High Court earlier this month, the withdrawal of your candidacy would set an excellent precedent.
It would demonstrate to your fellow South Africans – the people whom you aspire to lead – that real leaders place national interests ahead of personal interests. It would send a clear and powerful message that political leaders must be held to account; that their conduct must be beyond reproach, and their probity must be beyond suspicion.
Above all, it would match in deed your recently-stated commitment to upholding the Constitution and the values that underpin it. If you were to be elected President by the National Assembly without having been exonerated of the charges against you in a court of law, that would seriously undermine the Constitution. In fact, I have been reliably informed by senior members of the bar that your election could be challenged in the Constitutional Court. That is because your presidency would create a conflict of interest between your constitutional role as Head of State and your status as an accused in a matter that has been brought against you by the state itself.
Until such time as you are cleared in a court of law, it is impossible for you to serve your country as its President with any hope of being able to discharge the obligations and responsibilities that all of our presidents have to undertake in terms of the Constitution.
To use a soccer analogy: If you were to become President while still Accused number 1, you would find yourself simultaneously in the same position as the Chiefs’ striker (President) and the Pirates’ goalkeeper (Accused).
The rights of an accused to take on the might of the state in defending himself are incompatible with the obligations of the Head of State to run the country properly, accountably and in a manner responsive to the needs of the people. It is quite intolerable for our state to proceed criminally against its own Head, a Head who is well placed to fund or not fund the prosecution, to influence decisions regarding the state’s stance in appeals and processes, personnel and procedures in the case. As Head of State you appoint the National Director of Public Prosecutions (NDPP). This is akin to the Pirates’ goalkeeper nominating a Pirates’ player to take the last shot for the Chiefs in a penalty shoot out in the cup final.
Although your candidacy may well be an own goal for the ANC, you must withdraw it now for the sake of our constitutional order.
The NPA currently has 18 charges pending against you, many of which were laid for the first time at the end of December 2007. If you do not stand trial on these charges a pall of suspicion will hang over every move you make and every decision you take in the future.
You may have noticed that in mature democracies, unresolved allegations of impropriety send politicians into early, and sometimes temporary, retirement. Yet, you have chosen to pursue your political career (and presidential ambitions), despite the fact that you have not publicly dealt with the serious and varied allegations the prosecution thinks it can prove against you in a court of law.
Your trial must go ahead. Once the criminal proceedings are finally over, you can re-enter the world of politics, unless any sentence imposed precludes you from doing so. However, until then, you are trying to play for both sides at the same time. You can’t. Nobody can. It’s illegal and irrational. Any vote in Parliament in favour of your election as President is open to legal challenge on the basis that it would be invalid for want of consistency with the Constitution.
It is also politically and morally indefensible to persist in your candidacy under current circumstances. Presidents have to work in the political world of perceptions as well as the legal world of facts and rules. And so you must do the right thing and step aside until your innocence is proven in a court of law.
It is not feasible for you to run the country from the dock in Pietermaritzburg. So, in the interests of our country and its Constitution, which you now say you revere as the supreme law, stand back from politics until the criminal case is properly finalised.
Yours sincerely
Helen Zille
Leader of the Democratic Alliance
That’s very nice of Hellen, but who is going to read it to Mr Zuma?
Good post Prof.
the ANC is one big joke. anybody who cant see that this party is run by a bunch of crooks and ethically challenged opportunists, is truly beastheaded. finish klaar.
I like the way the ANC thought it was fine to plea bargain with criminals when it was their MPs who were getting the plea bargains, but are outraged when the plea bargain goes against their loyal cadres…
It really is a case of if you agree with them you’re right, if you don’t you’re wrong…based on nothing more than the fact that you disagree with them…
I don’t think there is much use posting here if PdV doesn’t defend his posts. Anymore.
Must say I haven’t read much worthy of a riposte from PdeV on this thread. He’s simply pointed out yet another example of the double standards amd hypocrisy of teh government and ruling party – pretty hard to argue with really.
I mean, should he respond to O3’s first comment? I for one won’t trust JZ regardless of whether he is acquitted or not – there’s too much other stuff on him – the very dodgy morality, hypocrisy, the populist mumbo jumbo etc. He’s a con man who’ll say whatever he needs to to win an audience, take money for favours and hell knows what else…
Did you think JZee came out of his rape trial looking like someone you’d trust your sister, or for that matter, mother with?
Ozone for once I agree with something you said, now do us all a favour.