News that the Department of Correctional Services will have to defend its employment equity policy in the Labour Court now that the matter of three aggrieved “coloured” officers has been referred to that court by the CCMA, must be welcomed. It means that our courts once and for all will be able to give guidance on the permissibility of the use of the four apartheid era race categories in affirmative action policies.
The court will also once and for all be able to deal with the “Jimmy Manyi” scenario in which a company (or in this case a government Department) uses national racial demographics in its Employment Equity Plan, even in a province (like the Western Cape or Kwa-Zulu-Natal) where the local racial demographics differ sharply from the national demographics.
The three aggrieved “coloured” officers are objecting to an instruction by the department of Correctional Services that national demographics should be used for Employment Equity targets across the country – including in the Western Cape. According to the Employment Equity targets of the Department, some 79.3% of employees should be “black Africans”, 8.8% “coloureds”, 9.3% “whites” and 2.5% “indians”. People who used to be classified as “coloured” during apartheid make up 54% of the population of the Western Cape.
Three legal issues may arise in this case. First, given the fact that the Employment Equity Act does not state in the text that Employment Equity Plans of employers should or may distinguish between “black African”, “coloured”, “indian” and “white people”, but instead speaks of the advancement of “designated groups” which include “black people”, a term that is defined as being “a generic term which means Africans, Coloureds and Indians”, the question arises whether the regulations promulgated in terms of the Act which requires employers to distinguish between different types of “black” people is legally valid or not.
I would guess (but I might be wrong) that the Constitutional Court will not have a problem with this kind of distinction in the law between different categories of “black” South Africans. Many years ago the Durban Supreme Court in the Motala case found that it was acceptable for the University of Natal to distinguish between “indian” and “african” applicants to that institution’s medical school as these groups – although both “black” – have experienced different levels of discrimination under apartheid and cannot be said at present to enjoy the same social and economic opportunities.
The Constitutional Court has also stated that questions about affirmative action need to be evaluated in the particular social economic and legal context, and that it is a situation sensitive enquiry. The context in which the Employment Equity Act Regulations should be read is one in which the lingering effects of past apartheid distinctions based on “african”, “indian” and “coloured” race categories are still felt in our society. For example, in South Africa those who belong to the group classified as “indian” during apartheid are generally far wealthier than those who used to be classified as “african”.
Second, the question arises whether the Employment Equity Act allows an employer to use national racial demographics when setting employment equity targets – even where local demographics may sharply differ from national racial demographics. At present, section 42 of the Employment Equity Act states that in determining whether a designated employer is implementing employment equity in compliance with this Act, the Director-General of Labour must take into account all other factors mentioned in section 42 which includes the “demographic profile of the national and regional economically active population” and the “pool of suitably qualified people from designated groups from which the employer may reasonably be expected to promote or appoint employees”.
It must be noted that this section does not seem to impose a direct legal duty on an employer to take into account both national and provincial demographics (or to look at the pool of suitably qualified available employees available in the region) when devising an Employment Equity Plan. This suggests that there is nothing in the Employment Equity Act that prevents the Department of Correctional Services from using national instead of provincial racial demographics when devising and implementing an employment equity plan.
However, the Department of Labour must, inter alia, look at provincial racial demographics when it evaluates the Employment Equity Plan of the Department. This suggests that the Employment Equity Act may perhaps be interpreted to imply that the achievement of “employment equity” in a workplace can only be achieved if the regional and not the national demographics are taken into account. This interpretation is somewhat strained as section 42 requires the Department of Labour to take into account both national and regional racial demographics and it is far from clear whether these provisions could be read to place a legal duty on the Department of Correctional Services to use regional and not national racial demographics in its Employment Equity Plan,
Ultimately, the court will have to decide which interpretation is correct.
One must recall that section 13, read with section 15, of the Employment Equity Act states that what employers are legally required to do is to implement affirmative action measures for people from “designated groups: in order to achieve “employment equity”. “Employment equity” is not defined in the Act but section 15 defines the scope and limits of required affirmative action measures. It states:
(1) Affirmative action measures are measures designed to ensure that suitably qualified people from designated groups have equal employment opportunities and are equitably represented in all occupational categories and levels in the workforce of a designated employer.
(2) Affirmative action measures implemented by a designated employer must include: (a) measures to identify and eliminate employment barriers, including unfair discrimination, which adversely affect people from designated groups; (b) measures designed to further diversity in the workplace based on equal dignity and respect of all people; (c) making reasonable accommodation for people from designated groups in order to ensure that they enjoy equal opportunities and are equitably represented in the workforce of a designated employer; (d) … measures to: (i) ensure the equitable representation of suitably qualified people from designated groups in all occupational categories and levels in the workforce; and (ii) retain and develop people from designated groups and to implement appropriate training measures, including measures in terms of an Act of Parliament providing for skills development.
The section further states that affirmative action measures will “include preferential treatment and numerical goals, but exclude quotas”. It also states that the section does not require “a designated employer to take any decision concerning an employment policy or practice that would establish an absolute barrier to the prospective or continued employment or advancement of people who are not from designated groups”.
I would suspect that these provisions, read holistically, might well be interpreted by a court to mean that the duty on employers to strive towards equitable representation of suitably qualified people from designated groups in the workforce requires them to take into account the regional and not national racial demographics when it formulates its affirmative action targets. As we know, the Department of Correctional Services’ current policy (which uses national racial demographics) in effect places an absolute barrier on the advancement of “coloured” correctional services personnel in the Western Cape – especially given the bloody-minded manner in which it is reportedly being implemented. Under the current plan, if a Western Cape officer working the Department of Correctional Services wishes to be promoted, he or she will almost always have to move to another part of the country.
Although the “coloured” personnel can, of course, apply for jobs elsewhere (where there is not – in the offensive words of Jimmy Manyi – an “oversupply of coloureds”), this requirement would place “coloured” members of the Department of Correctional Services in a very difficult position. If their roots are in the Western Cape, if their families live and work here, and if they speak predominantly Afrikaans, one of the dominant languages in the region, such employees may in effect be forced to choose either never to be promoted or to uproot themselves entirely. This may force many of them out of the service of the Department altogether.
This interpretation of the Employment Equity Act would be in line with the Constitutional Court’s jurisprudence on corrective measures as developed in the Van Heerden case, in which Deputy Chief Justice Moseneke stated that it was not constitutionally permitted to impose corrective measures on a group if those measures constituted “an abuse of power or impose such substantial and undue harm on those excluded from its benefits that our long-term constitutional goal” of achieving equality in a diverse society would be threatened. The Correctional Services Department’s policy may therefore be declared unlawful and not in line with the carefully interpreted provisions of the Employment Equity Act.
If the court found that the Act could not be interpreted in this way, I suspect it would have to declare unconstitutional the provisions in the Act which could be interpreted as allowing an employer to ignore regional racial demographics when it imposed an employment equity plan. This would be because such provisions (interpreted to allow for national demographics to be used exclusively when formulating Employment Equity Plans) would not meet the requirements for a valid corrective measures programme developed in the Van Heerden case.
Whatever happens, unless for strategic reasons the Department settles this matter to avoid a definitive judgment by the Constitutional Court on these vexing issues (something the Department would be well advised to do and which it might still do if good lawyers are advising it), the case will probably go all the way to the highest court, where that court will finally be able to put these highly contentious issues to rest by giving guidance on corrective measures that apply differently to people previously classified as “coloured”, “indian” and “african”.
One of the biggest pieces of bullshit propaganda bandied around since 1994 is the one that we have a constitution based on non racial principles.
In terms of section 9[2] – as interpreted by the Concourt – exactly the opposite is true. And this case, by the look of things, will prove it again.
Henri says:
February 24, 2012 at 12:30 pm
How do you propose we address the negative effects of white minority rule of the last +- 350 years since Van Riebeeck and apartheid in particular?
Since people were excluded on the basis of race, the remedy should also be based on race, no?
Should the constitution not be the framework that allows us to achieve equality?
“Propoganda”, as you put it aside…
Andrew says:
“Since people were excluded on the basis of race, the remedy should also be based on race, no?”
Oh yeah?
Including affirmative action for every “Black” [even if born of filthy rich parents] born and schooled after 27 April 1994 – at the detriment of any white [or coloured, for that matter] child born after 1994 – even if born from dirt poor parents, etc, etc.?
That’s non-racialism according to our Concourt?
Correction.
“these highly contentious issues to rest by giving guidance on corrective measures that apply differently to people STILL classified as “coloured”, “indian” and “african”.”
How to get over the embarrassment of asking people to racially identify themsleves:
“How do I as a company employer go about finding out the “race” of my employees in a tactful manner?”
“The EEA1 form calls for voluntary self-classification on the part of the employee. If an employee refuses to fill this in the employer must rely on existing records of the employee, but must make sure that this information is made available to him/her. If an employee is “mixed race”, the designation he/she volunteers must be used. If the employer must make the choice, he/she is advised to put the employee in the “designated group” category – in other words, black.”
Read more: http://www.southafrica.info/business/investing/regulations/employmentequity.htm#ixzz1nITwQXMU
So it is simple. If you are not sure what you are (perhaps your forefathers were San/Khoisan) but you turned out “coloured” you can write there “African” instead all is honky dory and in line with our “progressive nonracial constitution”.
Read more: http://www.southafrica.info/business/investing/regulations/employmentequity.htm#ixzz1nITmuCFD
Of course it would be much more practical and honest to issue employers with genetic testing kits.
Henri says:
February 24, 2012 at 13:02 pm
As South Africans we cannot continue to talk past each other. It is critical that we enage each other constructively hence the question, “Since people were excluded on the basis of race, the remedy should also be based on race, no?”
How do we eradicate the inequalities caused by race polictics pre-1994? Propose a better solution than affirmative action if you have one, that’s all I’m saying.
“For example, in South Africa those who belong to the group classified as “indian” during apartheid are generally far wealthier than those who used to be classified as “african”.”
And now all of sudden the RACE and CLASS lens converges again in a suitably arbitrary haphazard manner as to justify what is clearly a disgusting, inconsistent and morally bankrupt value system.
Henri
If you are born post 1994 to black parents, you will still suffer inequalities. Most black people did not become, as you put it, “filthy rich” after 94, nor did white South Afrcans suddenly become dirt poor, needing affirmation?
Andrew
February 24, 2012 at 13:33 pm
“Since people were excluded on the basis of race, the remedy should also be based on race, no?”
No. The remedy can be based on class. We all know what the real “lingering effects” of Apartheid are – it can be found for all to see in our townships and rural areas and it can be measured in terms of extreme poverty and arrested development.
@ PdV
Your unusual advice of out of court settlement on this matter is interesting. I might be wrong but I have never heard you promoting that on other matters of constitutional importance.
This case will force us to engage with the debate that we avoided during the (Manyi & Manuel) exchange.
ozoneblue says:
February 24, 2012 at 13:42 pm
Non-whites seemingly feel that a class based approach would see white people affirmed again.
The argument being that white South Africans had it pretty good for the last 100 years and the unsuccesfull ones only have themselves to blame as they had all the oppertunities to succeed the last 100 years?
@ Professor Pierre De Vos
What would happen if a poor white male with a residential address in Alexandra, Johannesburg, born post the 1994 election (not that that is the date which should necesserily be used for this hypethetical) approaches the Concourt saying that he did not get a job solely as a result of his colour? How would the dicrimantion against him be judicially justified?
How would one morally justify his personal crisis? Lets say for argument sake – he only has one life to live – yet in that life he must pay for the sins of a previous generation.
How would you explain to him the burden he must bare? Does fairness get into it?
How woulld you explain to him that it is right that the decisions which effect him in this way are made in the aggregate, with reference to all kinds of percentages etc, without his personal circumstances being taken into account?
Let’s say, notwithstanding his malnourishment in his formative years and beyond, he has a knack for math. Indeed, we know that if he were born in some other place he would have solved some great mathematical problem which, in turn, would have led to end of global warming, a cure for AIDS, and massive amounts of job creation.
Would you tell him to take an opportunity to go to another country if by some miracle he had the opportunity? Or would you tell him to shoulder his burden?
Andrew
February 24, 2012 at 14:37 pm
“the unsuccesfull ones only have themselves to blame as they had all the oppertunities to succeed the last 100 years?”
That is such an obnoxious and bizarrely racist statement. I know many “whites” who sacrificed a great deal to oppose Apartheid, both materially and in terms of social ostracization. So what you are saying that those of us who didn’t join the Apartheid gravy train were stupid and had only ourselves to blame? They should have ridden the wave.
And the “unsuccessful” Black people who now makes out the large impoverished majority under a democratic government- should they also blame themselves then?
He’s your son – how would you ensure that he does not become a bitter racist?
More practically: he has curly hair and a dark skin – he did not carry his ID to the interview- how would those considering his application decide whether he is black or not?
Cicero Langa
February 24, 2012 at 15:17 pm
You are wasting your time. His contribution to his blog is to post his own views and then to run. He never really engages his audience on the difficult matters. And also take not that he is homosexual – he doesn’t have to talk to his kids about their future and how to shoulder the sins of his forefathers. I find this phenomena amongst most single white “liberals” who do not shoulder any responsibility toward raising children.
ozoneblue says:
February 24, 2012 at 15:28 pm
“That is such an obnoxious and bizarrely racist statement.”
Please clarify why the post was racist or obnoxious if you don’t mind.
Just thought that one should be aware of the sentiment. A class based approach should be sensitive to this peception.
No doubt some white people also strugled for the equality of south africans. No sane person would deny that.
Cicero Langa says:
February 24, 2012 at 15:17 pm
“How would one morally justify his personal crisis? Lets say for argument sake – he only has one life to live – yet in that life he must pay for the sins of a previous generation.”
Black people has been paying for the sins of previous white generations for a long time.
Why should they not benefit now?
I am not questioning their benefits; I am questioning our hypothetical boy’s burden.
Is your argument that the specific boy’s burden is morally justifiable because two wrongs make a right?
Andrew
February 24, 2012 at 15:59 pm
So what you are saying it is not the racism as such that is wrong, but who benefits from it. What was wrong with apartheid then – that whites benefited?
Also – why did you change the topic from “coloureds” (whose forefathers had no part in perpetuating apartheid) to whites as apparently appropriate victims of racism.
So, according to Deputy Chief Justice Moseneke key to the Constitutional Court’s jurisprudence on corrective measures is that it is not constitutionally permitted to impose corrective measures on a group if those measures constituted “an abuse of power or impose such substantial and undue harm on those excluded from its benefits that our long-term constitutional goal” of achieving equality in a diverse society would be threatened?
Now, Andrew is going to say it serves them right. But, we have seen the effects of their shitcanning on the state administration and our SOEs:
Verdoem tot armoede
2012-02-20 22:40
Piet Muller
Suid-Afrika staan op die rand van ’n afgrond wat die versorging van sy wit bejaardes betref. ’n Mens kan selfs praat van ’n verskynsel van skaamte-armoede, skryf Piet Muller. Hy reageer op Transnet-pensioentrekkers wat net R1 van hul pensioen uitkry.
My eerste reaksie op Saterdag se hoofberig in Beeld oor Transnet-pensioentrekkers wat net R1 van hul pensioen kry, is dat dit net die oortjies van die seekoei is.
Dit raak dikwels ook mense wat hoë betrekkinge in die staatsdiens gehad het, wat belangrike dienste aan die samelewing bewys het; wie se huise afbetaal is en ou motors nog goed lyk; maar in werklikheid skaars geld het om kos te koop.
’n Mens kan dit skaamte-armoede noem omdat sulke mense meestal onwillig is om oor hul geldelike penarie te praat omdat hulle dikwels onder die wanindruk is dat dit met hul vriende en kollegas beter gaan as met hulle.
Hierdie situasie het twee oorsake: die verpligte vervroegde aftrede van duisende amptenare in die laat 1980’s en vroeë 1990’s; en die moderne langlewendheid wat gaan veroorsaak dat meer as 40% van hierdie mense na raming tussen 90 en 100 jaar oud gaan word en sowat 20% selfs tot 120 kan lewe.
Maar toe hulle uit diens gestel is, was dit nog die veronderstelling dat pensioene ’n mens vir sowat 15 tot 20 jaar ná jou aftrede moet kan dra.
As mense in 1990 in hul 50’s uit diens gestel is, is hulle nou reeds 22 jaar op pensioen en het hulle reeds die punt bereik waar hulle nie meer geldelik selfversorgend kan wees nie.
Om die waarheid van hierdie teoretiese model te toets, het ek met sulke mense afsprake probeer reël, maar elkeen wat ek deur ’n tussenganger probeer bereik het, het ’n onderhoud geweier – uit vrees dat hul vriende hulle sal kan identifiseer.
Dit is eers toe ek oor RSG se program Kopskuif ’n beroep op mense gedoen het om desnoods anoniem met my in aanraking te kom, dat ek letterlik honderde briewe ontvang het.
Al die briewe vertel dieselfde verhaal: Hoe versigtig mense ook al met hul geld gewerk het en hoe hulle ook al probeer afskaal het, hul pensioene kan net nie meer die stygende verpligtinge dra nie. (Brief hiernaas).
Nodeloos om te sê, mense wat onderwysers was, se situasie is nog veel desperater omdat hul salarisse soveel laer was as ander staatsamptenare s’n.
Ironies genoeg is dit vandag net relatief “welvarende” bejaardes wat kan bekostig om in gesubsidieerde ouetehuise te woon, waar die tariewe per maand normaalweg wissel tussen R7 000 en R11 000 per persoon.
’n Afgetrede egpaar wat albei ’n staatsouderdomspensioen ontvang (sowat R1 020 per persoon) sal nie eens die meeste metropole se tariewe en belastings kan bekostig nie; en hoegenaamd geen plek kan bekostig in ’n normale ouetehuis nie.
In die geval van skaamte-armoede is die mense gedwing om vroeg af te tree.
Mense wat in hul vyfde dekade verplig word om af te tree, is besonder weerloos omdat hulle dikwels nog huise het wat nie afbetaal is nie en kinders op skool of universiteit het.
Maar veral omdat hul pensioene nog nie “ryp geword” het nie.
Omdat pensioene afhanklik is van die krag van saamgestelde rente, bou dit baie stadig op om in die laaste paar jaar drasties te groei.
Dit is niks vreemds dat iemand se pensioen tussen die jare 60 en 65 kan verdubbel nie. Dit is hierdie groei wat mense ontneem word wat voortydig uit diens gestel word.
Tog is dit nog ’n gunsteling-metode van maatskappye wat vinnig hul bottom line beter wil laat lyk.
’n Suid-Afrikaans geregistreerde multinasionale maatskappy het ’n jaar gelede sowat 3 000 mense bo 50 laat loop.
Dit het direkteure in staat gestel om hulself bonusse van tot 120% te gee en die dividend van die maatskappy kon op ’n rekordvlak bly.
Maar duisende mense is tot armoede verdoem om dit reg te kry.
Eerstewêreldlande is besig om hul aftree-ouderdom tot 70 te verhoog omdat ’n mens deesdae soveel kennis onder die knie moet kry voordat jy uitnemende prestasies kan lewer dat ’n groeiende aantal mense besig is om die beste intellektuele prestasies van hul loopbaan te lewer tussen die jare 60 en 70.
Let maar op hoeveel mense met Nobelpryse bekroon word in hul vroeë 70’s.
Om mense in hul 50’s uit diens te stel, is immoreel. Dit is ook ’n gruwelike verkwisting van die een ding waaraan die wêreld se nuwe ekonomie ’n chroniese skaarste het: hoëvlakkennis.
Sonia Arrison, Amerikaanse toekomskundige en ekonoom, het in ’n onderhoud met die tydskrif The Futurist beweer dat state binnekort met mekaar gaan begin meeding om hul bevolkings langer te laat lewe omdat dit ekonomiese sin maak.
Magnus Heystek is heeltemal reg: Ons kan nie meer bekostig om hooggeskoolde mense te laat aftree voor 80 nie.
Veral in ’n land waar so ’n klein minderheid die belasting moet voorsien wat so ’n groot meerderheid moet onderhou.
Die probleem van skaamte-armoede is nie net beperk tot mense wat in die vorige eeu afgetree het nie. Dit kan met enige van Beeld se huidige lesers gebeur.
’n Finansiële raadgewer het onlangs bereken dat as ’n mens voorsiening moet maak vir ’n pensioen totdat jy 100 jaar oud is, mense nie meer as R4 000 per maand inkomste behoort te trek op elke R1 miljoen pensioengeld wat hulle het nie.
As ’n mens darem ’n inkomste van R20?000 per maand wil hê, behoort jou pensioen dus sowat R5 miljoen groot te wees.
Ongelukkig tree die gemiddelde Suid-Afrikaner af met ’n pensioen van minder as R1 miljoen.
Die regering het die afgelope 16 jaar die langlewendheidsprobleem heeltemal geïgnoreer omdat sy standpunt is dat bejaarde-versorging deur mense se eie families gedoen moet word – soos wat dit tradisioneel deur swart families gedoen is, vandaar die klem op baie kinders om jou te kan versorg.
Dit is waarskynlik jong swart mense wat ná 1994 die arbeidsmark betree het, wat die meeste daardeur benadeel gaan word.
Hierdie stedelinge het meestal net so min kinders as wit mense.
Boonop word meer en meer vroue tot hoë posisies bevorder en hulle sal beslis nie geneë neem om hul werk te bedank om bejaarde ouers te versorg nie.
Ons sit eenvoudig op ’n tikkende tydbom wat niemand gaan ontsien nie.
Dr. Piet Muller is ’n toekomskundige met ’n spesiale belangstelling in die gevolge van veroudering en langlewendheid.
Verkeerd belê
Ná 35 jaar diens by plaaslike owerhede het ek in 2000 op 56 afgetree.
Ons het die keuse gehad om ’n kontantbedrag te neem of ’n kwart van die bedrag plus maandelikse pensioen te kry.
Dit was ’n baie moeilike keuse. Ek sou nog 10 jaar kon aangaan, maar sou van spanning doodgaan voor aftrede.
Verder is ons wysgemaak dat pensioenfondse genasionaliseer gaan word. Uiteindelik het ek die volle kontantbedrag geneem en in ’n effektetrustfonds belê. Ná 10 jaar is niks daarvan oor nie.
Ná baie trane het ons besluit om ons huis te verkoop. Weer eens het ek die geld in effektetrustfondse belê en ontvang dus geen rente nie.
Daar is tans geen groei nie. Die fondse stagneer. Volgens my bere-kenings sal die geld nie langer as 5 jaar hou nie.
Daar is geen oplossing vir my probleem nie.
Ek lê snags wakker of skrik wakker van angs. As ’n mens jonger is, kan jy jou nie indink hoe om sonder geld voort te bestaan nie. Selfs ’n ouetehuis is buite die kwessie as ek net ’n staatspensioen het om aan te bied.
Om selfmoord te pleeg, is ook nie ’n oplossing nie, want my vrou moet dan in ellende agterbly. Enige sielkundige sal sê ek moet die gedagte uit my kop kry, maar geen sielkundige sal in die volgende 20 jaar vir ons kan sorg nie.
Ek is nou 68, nog baie gesond en sal nog maklik 15 tot 20 jaar kan leef.
Ons kinders woon oorsee en ons hoor maar min van hulle.
My motor is ’n wrak. Ek het my geld so beskerm dat ek nie eens ’n nuwe motor gekoop het soos my kollegas wat ook afgetree het nie.
Ons het nooit rojaal gelewe nie.
ozoneblue
February 24, 2012 at 16:35 pm
LOL OB,
“(whose forefathers had no part in perpetuating apartheid)”.
Whom you think Coloured people descended from?
@ Maggs: ““(whose forefathers had no part in perpetuating apartheid)”.
Whom you think Coloured people descended from?”
The first Eve.
Sins of the father come and go
Depends on the powers whoever holds.
@Cicero: “Or would you tell him to shoulder his burden?”
Poor South Africa, seemingly forever trapped in the past, (at least for this passing moment within a short eternity) and so many self righteous, self serving skelms taking advantage of their chosen victims, justifying their cruel beliefs and failings.
I tell my many children: Live for today, but also yesterday and tomorrow. Believe in yourself, honour the parents and ancestors who made you, give to the future with all that you can offer. We are who we are.
Quinon proficit deficit
Quinon proficit deficit
@Cicero: yes, advise the children to shoulder the burden
We either advance or retire into obscurity.
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
February 24, 2012 at 17:59 pm
Yep.
I have had enough of this shit. The rugby season is back and I have already wasted too much of my precious time posting here.
While the ruling elite feast on the surplus of the economy and visit ruin upon all they touch, we are being kept distracted by something or another that keeps us focused on the past. We must be the most backward-looking nation in the world.
‘Durban Supreme Court in the Motala case found that it was acceptable for the University of Natal to distinguish between “indian” and “african” applicants to that institution’s medical school as these groups – although both “black”’
Both black? I’ve seen whites as dark as Maggs. There are some swarthy Indians but I don’t think the proper taxonomy is ‘black.’
Dmwangi
February 25, 2012 at 20:49 pm
Hey Dm,
“but I don’t think”
I agree!
p.s. Dm, don’t be too hard on yourself though – if everyone was average or above, the world will be a very boring place.
Maggs,
Ask PdV if being his catamite violates the Constitution. I’m certain he’s violating your section 13 rights.
Dmwangi
February 25, 2012 at 23:44 pm
Aw Dm,
You seem pretty annoyed.
Calm down a bit, in SA we accept all kinds of people – the not so bright, even less so and also those like you are included. As you know we can’t use derogatory terms for special cases – we’re allowed though to say that you’re “intellectually challenged”.
It’s not your fault, but not to worry there must be somebody who loves you. Mommy? Ok maybe that’s stretching it a lot. I know – god loves you. God loves all his creations (even the faulty ones). You’re safe – god does not do factory rejects or ‘early recalls’.
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
February 24, 2012 at 17:59 pm
‘“(whose forefathers had no part in perpetuating apartheid)”.
Whom you think Coloured people descended from?”
I know scientific facts do not really matter for the irrational racist- but there you are:
“Strong Maternal Khoisan Contribution to the South African Coloured Population: A Case of Gender-Biased Admixture”
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900096-0
Demographic representation is all so Mein Kampf.
Hitler would be so proud of us.
And of course we have exported capitalist, USA-style racism to Brazil too now. The problem is not that there are so many poor people, the problem is that there are not enough “negro” people who are middle class or rich.
“It’s another reminder of how efforts to globalize the U.S. model of social organization by race can cause the fragmentation of national identity in a regional power like Brazil, where futebol is the national sport, samba is the national music and “order and progress” and “one nation for everybody” are the national mottos. The american concept of “black” is not used in Brazilian Portuguese in connection with race, as in black America, black power, black enterprise; the operative word is negro.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-ehrmann/affirmative-action-divide_b_703443.html
And the basic philosophy behind the very fundamental principle of “human rights” also pissed down the same gutter. Gone are the notion of the rights of the individual human being who are masters of their own destiny in an equal and just society. The human being must belong to a “race” or an “ethnic group” – he must buy into the collectivist Verwoerdian Apartheid logic that shapes his identity, his future and his rights.
“Gabriella Fracescutti, 19, has filed one of nearly 300 lawsuits against the State University because of its quota policy. She has dreamed of being a surgeon since she was a high school freshman — “I like blood,” she says sheepishly — and studied during her entire senior year for the vestibular, the national college entrance exam. She did very well, scoring 82.5 percent, better than half the students admitted ahead of her. But her application was rejected, essentially because she is neither black nor poor.
“I just don’t understand how you can justify someone with a lower grade getting into the school, and turning me down. Why, because I have blond hair?” said Fracescutti, the daughter of an architect and a botanist. “I have friends who are whiter than me and didn’t study and didn’t do well on the test, but they wrote down they were [black] on their application and they got in. My grandmother is black. I could have written down that I am black, but I didn’t feel right about that. In a country like Brazil, everyone’s blood is mixed together.” ”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A62685-2003Jun15?language=printer
Zoo Keeper
February 26, 2012 at 10:30 am
Mein Kamp relates to pure RACISM and the notion of White supremacy. However according to this article affirmative action in universities of Brazil certainly sounds like it has some moral dimension to it that I would support and welcome in South Africa.
“Under the policy, 20 percent of the seats in the incoming freshman class are reserved for black students, another 20 percent for those from disadvantaged public schools and 5 percent will be shared by those with physical disabilities and students of Indian descent. All students admitted through quotas also must come from low-income families.”
i.e. “All students admitted through quotas also must come from low-income families.”. Now in South African context that can be justified as appropriate “fair discrimination” in terms of the legacy of Apartheid and in order to achieve real TRANSFORMATION.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-11-01/news/0311010102_1_black-students-brazilians-admissions
OB
I know Mein Kampf pretty well.
When you view the structure of the society envisaged, everyone was pigeon-holed into racial groups and then their participation in society limited according to the extent of their demographic representation. That’s where it all started, and ended up being a little more once the majority decided that proportions were out and must be replaced by complete eradication of certain population groups.
That is a distinct probable result of racial thinking. Demographic representation is national socialism and the antithesis of the freedom of the individual.
Zoo Keeper
February 26, 2012 at 12:27 pm
That is a hallmark of all racist/ethnocentric/nationalist ideologies all over the planet. It matters not that Jews oppressed Germans, or the British oppressed Afrikaners, or the Indians oppressed the Africans, or the Tutsis opressed the Hutus, or the Zulus oppressed the Xhosa, or the “whites” oppressed the “blacks” for thousands of years etc.etc..
Once you have established that racism/ethnocentrism/apartheid is backward, counter-revolutionary and just plain wrong and that discrimination based on these grounds is morally repugnant – then indeed it remains wrong and morally repugnant no matter what the circumstances or who the “victims” are.
Finish and klaar.
OB
Guess we’re pretty much on the same page then.
Cicero
I believe your point should be refined just a tad – that person only has one life to live, and yet, for his/her entire life, that person will be discriminated against for a situation he had nothing to do with.
I say entire life because there is no horizon on AA/BEE. It is permanent in its intention and implementation. Not one supporter can give you a good answer as to when these discriminatory measures will end. Not one.
Accident of birth is arbitrary, nobody chooses their origins. Why be punished for that?
How do you prevent him becoming a racist – with great difficulty, if at all.
I do also believe OB has a point about the Prof, harsh but fair too. His personal circumstances show that he is not fathering children. No problem from an individual point, but it is dishonest to lecture the parents of our future generations that their kids must just deal with the discrimination and accept their lot in life as first-class and second-class citizens divided by race.
ozoneblue
February 26, 2012 at 8:13 am
Hey OB,
“irrational racist”.
Is that a step up from “filthy racist” (thanks Dworky).
p.s. Do you know any rational racists?
@Maggs:
No annoyance here Maggs. Just advising you of your rights.
@OB & Zoo:
If I understand you correctly, you are opposed to categorising ppl based on race or ethnicity. While that might be a laudable ideal, do you not agree that ethnicity is highly correlated with culture, which, as a function of beliefs, suppositions, etc., is highly determinitive of behaviour?
Is it not therefore reasonable to use ethnicity as a rough proxy for predicting how someone will react to a certain policy, overture, statement, gift, institutional rule, etc. and make prudential judgements accordingly?
It’s all nice and fine to say that we treat ppl as individuals and don’t take account of collectivist characteristics but as a matter of prudence, I would suggest that that is not always wise. Legalising tik in NW province may be fine but do it in Hanover Park and it’ll be a disaster despite the fact that there will be some Afrikaaners who will become addicts and some coloureds who will not.
Cultural inertia really matters and therefore it can be shrewd to factor in ethnicity when formulating policy.
Dmwangi
February 26, 2012 at 18:58 pm
“While that might be a laudable ideal, do you not agree that ethnicity is highly correlated with culture, which, as a function of beliefs, suppositions, etc., is highly determinitive of behaviour?”
So if I had to believe in a static, genetically determined concept of culture I would still be I would still be driving around on an ox-wagon and smearing cow shit on my kitchen walls?
Culture is never static, it is simply a description of how we as humans being evolve and learn to adapt to our ever changing environment and it can be formed and transformed through interaction, commonality, symbols, metaphors and political ideals.
Dmwangi says:
February 26, 2012 at 18:58 pm
What we’re talking about is the use of BEE and affirmative action as forms of economic warfare.
You do make an interesting point. Are you saying feelings of empathy for the children of the victims of his AIDS denialism was culturally out of Thabo Mbeki’s reach and that he lacked the foresight to predict the consequences of his AIDS policy?
OB:
Culture is not static but typically when whites talk about it ‘evolving’ they are referring to Africans adopting Western cultural practices. That is not going to happen, nor should it. Likewise, I do not foresee whites ‘evolving’ towards African epistemic modalities.
Given that brute fact, the most prudent course is to take account of cultural differences and move forward incrementally.
Brett:
I have no idea how you concluded that from my remarks. Mbeki’s denialism was the result of personal failings not his alleged Afro-centric worldview.
Economic warfare?
That’s insane. AA in uni admissions has almost no bearing on lifetime earnings.
And while I think BEE as currently envisaged misallocates capital, there is no a priori reason why it has to. Economics is not zero-sum and policies that foster skills amongst all demographics and integrate everyone into the country’s economy will likely result in higher growth, less gov. transfer payments, lower taxes, less dependency, crime, etc.
Dmwangi
February 26, 2012 at 21:05 pm
You talk as if there is one homogeneous “Western culture” and one homogeneous “African culture” and as if the two have very little influence on each other. I disagree.
Even Afrikaans evolved as a language from a kitchen pidgin spoken mostly by slaves into a language officially adopted by the descendants of white colonists. There are millions of examples like this ranging from cricket in India to how African Americans influenced popular music in the West.
OB:
I don’t disagree. There has been some cultural cross-pollination. But let’s not be naive, you’re not going to the bush anytime soon and Africans are not going to adopt homosexual marriage in the near future.
Let’s accept that fact and try to tailor policies based on the principle of subsidiarity instead of grandiose principles of general application.
Dmwangi
February 26, 2012 at 22:09 pm
“But let’s not be naive, you’re not going to the bush anytime soon and Africans are not going to adopt homosexual marriage in the near future. ”
So do you really believe Afrikaners don’t also “come from the bush” and that they are merrily embracing homosexual marriage as if it is second nature. LOL.
So Afrikaaners have male-initiation practices similar to Africans?
No, Afrikaaners have accepted homo marriage as a natural extension of roughly 350 years of Western philosophy. Had they been influenced by African epistemologies as much as you seem to think, homo marriage would strike them as a logical absurdity– as it does the vast majority of Africans.
Dmwangi
February 26, 2012 at 22:27 pm
“No, Afrikaaners have accepted homo marriage as a natural extension of roughly 350 years of Western philosophy.”
LOL. That is just pure racist bullshit. You are more backward than I first thought. Homosexuality in Africa is such a “Western perversion”, in fact your homophobia is probably the result of good old Christian British anti-buggery laws.
Is Homosexuality “Un-African”?
http://thinkafricapress.com/gender/homosexuality-un-african-colonialism
Ad hominem arguments don’t usually persuade me.
I find it hilarious that you’re so quick to invoke that term against me but perpetually rail against anyone who ascribes it to you.
Note that I said homo MARRIAGE not homosexuality. Which African cultures embraced homo marriage as an ideal?
None. It was proscribed long before we received Christianity. And to call me ‘backwards’ for holding a belief my culture has continually affirmed over several thousand years is the same kind of white arrogance that presumes white cultural beliefs are superior and makes inter-cultural dialogue so difficult.
You’ll also note the comments by Africans to that article. I repeat, we are not going to accept homo marriage anytime soon just as you are not going to feel the spear.
Let us govern ourselves in accordance with our culture instead of believing your ‘progressive,’ non-’backward’ vision is best.
Dmwangi
February 26, 2012 at 23:09 pm
“Which African cultures embraced homo marriage as an ideal?”
So then pray tell which “Western culture” embraces “homo marriage” as an ideal? It is definitely not “embraced as and ideal” by the Dutch Reformed church – that I can assure you and PdV will confirm. Perhaps it is just because you mistakenly believe all white people have the same culture and believe in the same things – just like all Africans have the same culture and believe in the same things too?
‘So then pray tell which “Western culture” embraces “homo marriage” as an ideal? It is definitely not “embraced as and ideal” by the Dutch Reformed church – that I can assure you and PdV will confirm’
Dutch Reformed Church is not a powerful culture shaping force in Western thought. Western universities, legal institutions (ECHR), media, etc. are– all of which advocate homo marriage all over the world, which is their prerogative. Just don’t foist it on Africans a la Western-trained judges.
Dmwangi says:
February 26, 2012 at 21:10 pm
Pray continue to rebut my arguments in such a way!
“Economics is not zero-sum and policies that foster skills amongst all demographics and integrate everyone into the country’s economy will likely result in higher growth, less gov. transfer payments, lower taxes, less dependency, crime, etc.”
Dmwangi
February 26, 2012 at 23:30 pm
“Western universities, legal institutions (ECHR), media, etc. are– all of which advocate homo marriage all over the world, which is their prerogative. Just don’t foist it on Africans a la Western-trained judges.”
I think you should appreciate the difference between “tolerance of” versus “advocating for” and “embracing as an ideal”. And please take note that ironically this also also the Western intellectual incubator that are pushing such trendy pseudo-liberal dogmas like Critical Race Theory and its ideological policy offspring of race-based affirmative action. Just imagine that we should introduce demographically representative quotas for “homo marriages” as well since all of human society has been dominated for centuries by heterosexual unions and homosexuals have historically suffered structural and systemic homophobia.
‘I think you should appreciate the difference between “tolerance of” versus “advocating for” and “embracing as an ideal”.
I thought I established that I don’t subscribe to CRT.
And what about tolerance of cultures that don’t tolerate homosexual unions!!!
Playing the ‘tolerance’ or ‘neutrality’ canard is self-referential. Moreover, I would say it’s active advocacy when Western countries threaten to pull aid funding unless certain countries codify homosexual ‘rights’ into local law.
Dmwangi
As an aside, “Western white” culture has no historical tolerance of homosexuality. The Hollywood movies from the 80s and early 90s would reflect how men could be blackmailed over being gay, because society found that unacceptable.
The Christian churches have a long history of anti-homosexual sentiment, in fact of vocal advocacy against homosexuality. They’re still battling with homosexual marriage and openly homosexual priests. That’s why singers such as George Michael stayed in the closet until the late 90s at the earliest.
I would say that “Western” culture has simply been exposed for a generation longer than “African” culture and therefore finds tolerance an easier thing to do. It is very incorrect though to state that homosexual tolerance is a cultural “norm” for the “West”. Its a difficult generalisation to make.
Dmwangi
February 27, 2012 at 1:28 am
LOL @ our resident genius,
“And what about tolerance of cultures that don’t tolerate homosexual unions!!!”
There are lots of those – but fortunately for us (and you) our democracy is built on a foundation of human rights.
But then you knew that when you put your tail between your legs and hightailed it for Africa’s southernmost shores with it’s envied democratic traditions.
Pack all that backward “cultural” baggage and send it back to wherever you came – and live happily ever after in our Constitutional democracy and enjoy our culture of human rights.
Another writer said it is good when you take your employer (government) to court provided you win the case but if you lose it might be your biggest mistake.
ozoneblue says:
February 24, 2012 at 16:35 pm
Racism is always wrong, no matter who benefit. However AA is not racism.
Without it the inequalities of the past would remain. It is my hope that South Africa becomes a strong and succesfull country within the next 50 years so that the inequalities of today becomes a bad memory and AA can be looked back on as a succesfull and a not needed policy anymore.
Most reports on employment indicate that most white people still find employment. The figures, if memory serves me right is upward of 90% of whites for employment.
Brett Nortje says:
February 24, 2012 at 16:41 pm
I saw the story in the Afrikaans press and thought that something should be done so that the pensioners can live the last days of their lives with dignity.
I don’t think that people should ‘eat cake’ just because they are white/black.
The question is, how do we move forward as a country, not leaving out the whites/blacks. How do we get the black South African to accept the history of the Afrikaaner as ‘his’ as a South African so on. Basically, can’t we just all get along?
Maggs, don’t come with your whitist cultural tendency. Our people respect the rights of everyone to practice their own Orientalism. But that must be balanced with a sensitivity to pre-colonial norms that encourage vigorous heterormativity.
Thanks,
Andrew
February 27, 2012 at 10:16 am
“whites” “blacks” “coloureds” blah blah blah – your entire reference frame is replete with racism.
And please stop knocking down a strawman. I have never said we should not implement AA. What I criticized an reject is race-based AA. Here is the clue:
ozoneblue
February 26, 2012 at 11:47 am
“All students admitted through quotas also must come from low-income families.”
If we don’t move away from racial classifications now your South Africa in 50 years time will not be much different than now. In fact it will be much more polarized according to race because you cannot build a national nonracial identity when you keep on repeating and accentuating race/ethnic identification as a primary social construct.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 10:37 am
Dworky,
“Maggs, don’t come with your whitist cultural tendency.”
So you agree then, I take it, that Dmwangi is our resident genius.
It must be THAT graduate school, eh!
ozoneblue
February 27, 2012 at 10:48 am
Hey OB,
“All students admitted through quotas also must come from low-income families.”
Dave King, as he says it, has no money.
Is he also in your list of low-income families?
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/dave_king_can_t_get_at_his_cash_to_buy_rangers_1_1364120
Andrew
February 27, 2012 at 10:16 am
“Most reports on employment indicate that most white people still find employment. The figures, if memory serves me right is upward of 90% of whites for employment.”
I would say a very large percentage of those create employment or are self-employed. In a capitalist society you cannot expect somebody to just give you a job, perhaps you need to realise that as with universities etc. we cannot indefinitely continue to reallocate and subdivide what existed in 1994. I still don’t see what it is that stop black entrepreneurs to create new businesses and employ whomever they want – why the continued emphasis on AA, BEE etc. as if they always have to be affirmed by white people.
Now here is a even more interesting AA idea from Brazil:
“Measures under discussion
UNIVERSITIES
Public universities would keep stringent exams, but 20 percent of students would have to be black Brazilians.
EMPLOYMENT
At least 20 percent of public servants would be required to be Afro-Brazilians. In private firms with more than 20 employees, the same percentage would be observed.
POLITICAL PARTIES
Each political party would be required to have at least 30 percent and a maximum of 60 percent of Afro-Brazilian candidates.
MEDIA
A quarter of television, movie and theater roles would be reserved for blacks.
INDEMNIZATION FOR SLAVERY
A highly disputed proposal is to pay each descendant of African slaves an indemnity of about $40,000.
PUBLIC SCHOOLS
Public schools would craft specialized courses on African history.
HATE SPEECH LAW
A discussion about toughened laws for hate speech–including hate speech on the Internet–is underway. One proposal is that offenders could face a fine and up to 3 years in prison.
PLANS ALREADY IMPLEMENTED
A new congressional commission on racial equality is being established.
Descendants of escaped slaves who now live on settlements in Brazil called quilombos already are slowly being granted ownership of the lands they occupy.”
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-12-27/news/0112270317_1_affirmative-action-affirmative-action-brazilians/2
ozoneblue
February 27, 2012 at 11:24 am
Hey OB,
“Now here is a even more interesting AA idea from Brazil”
Those are great ideas indeed.
But I think ALL COOLIES SHOULD FUCK OFF BACK TO INDIA!
What do you think?
The one that caught my eye:
“POLITICAL PARTIES
Each political party would be required to have at least 30 percent and a maximum of 60 percent of Afro-Brazilian candidates.”
Logical? Yes, and consistent with my contention that race-based AA has at its philosophical roots a deeply ingrained contempt for what is generally understood by the basic principles of freedom and democracy.
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
February 27, 2012 at 11:28 am
Agreed. Perhaps if you fuck off soon enough and the Indian government can implement this you may get something back from the British besides an modern constitution that abolishes the caste system.
“INDEMNIZATION FOR SLAVERY
A highly disputed proposal is to pay each descendant of African slaves an indemnity of about $40,000.”
ozoneblue
February 27, 2012 at 11:36 am
Hey OB,
“Perhaps if you fuck off soon enough”
I took your advice some while ago and fucked off then.
It’s the other coolies which you should concentrate on.
If they bugger off then more place is available for poor White people in universities, workplaces and provincial cricket teams.
Let’s start a movement Friends-of-fucking-off-Coolies – what do you think?
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
February 27, 2012 at 11:39 am
“I took your advice some while ago and fucked off then.”
Good job. We don’t have much time for racist “coolies” in the nonracial South Africa.
@ OB
“why the continued emphasis on AA, BEE etc. as if [blacks] always have to be affirmed by white people.”
With respect, blacks desperately need to be affirmed by whites for the foreseeable future. Their self-esteem was badly eroded by 250 years of apartheid. Only a century or so of white affirmation will instil in blacks the ability to start their own businesses!
Thanks.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 11:52 am
Fair enough. But let me ask you this: how then about we reintroduce a progressive form of white minority governance until such time that blacks have had enough time to mature, recuperate and to heal? It might be a better idea if blacks are then gradually introduced to the responsibilities posed by democratic governance if it is true as you contend they are all but paralyzed without the appropriate white affirmation.
ozoneblue
February 27, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Hey OB,
“It might be a better idea if blacks are then gradually introduced to the responsibilities posed by democratic governance”.
Good idea.
These Blacks think they can govern a country when they actually have no idea.
Will you volunteer to gradually teach Blacks “to the responsibilities posed by democratic governance”?
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
February 27, 2012 at 12:17 pm
“These Blacks think they can govern a country when they actually have no idea.”
I didn’t say that, your buddie MDF said it. Backs need to crutch on whites for affirmation for another century or so.
@ Maggs
“Will you volunteer to gradually teach Blacks “to the responsibilities posed by democratic governance”?
Funny you should mention this idea, Maggs, because I am setting up a 29 week course (because it must be very “gradual”), at the Milpark Holiday Inn on precisely this topic.
Not only will we teach the basic principles of democracy, but also the economic lessons of what I like to call “other-reliance.” Our bold slogan for this part of the course: “DON’T WORRY BLACK MAN – YOU ARE NOT ON YOUR OWN!”
WDYS?
“…a definitive judgment by the Constitutional Court on these vexing issues” seems to me to be exactly what is required, though obviously embarrassing to the government which seems unable to implement its own rules FAIRLY & yet wants to call the Concourt ‘anti-transformation’.
There is really nothing wrong with the legislation, but perhaps “the bloody-minded manner in which it is reportedly being implemented” may have something to do with with the Western Cape being hotly contested political territory?
ozoneblue says:
February 27, 2012 at 10:48 am
Andrew
February 27, 2012 at 10:16 am
“whites” “blacks” “coloureds” blah blah blah – your entire reference frame is replete with racism.
Naturally OB, it is racist to call a black man, black and a white man white.
Andrew
February 27, 2012 at 12:29 pm
True – perhaps you are a big racist since your entire outlook on life and evaluation of humanity is based on it. Please explain when do you decide to call a “black” man “coloured”?
@ OB
“Please explain when do you decide to call a “black” man “coloured”?
I concur that we must move, albeit very, very gradually, towards a non-racial society. But we will not get there by simply denying the past. That is why I fully support the proposal that reliable officials from the Department of Racial Classification be brought back as ad hoc consultants. They have valuable experience in classifying people racially, by careful scientific observation as to whether an ordinary HB pencil remains fixed in the hair of a given person of indeterminate race.
Judging by the coverage on Financial Mail and comments by various economists on the weekend papers, Pravins budget and SONA was not well received.
This link also summarises the challenges faced by the ANC.
http://dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2012-02-27-road-to-nowhere-by-the-anc
Jama
On the face of it, the legislation will pass constitutional muster. But it is never applied like that because it is measured differently.
It envisages competition between like candidates, or almost like candidates, and then a preference being given to the HDI.
But its measured in “how many blacks, coloureds, indians, whites do you have”, not what choices were made in employing the particular workforce. There it falls into disrepute and the implementation is definitely failing constitutional muster. UCT admission policies and candidate reservations on racial grounds will also fail, because it is used in an arbitrary fashion without any qualitative investigation.
It still suffers from permanence though, which could cause it some serious constitutional difficulties.
Gwebecimele
February 27, 2012 at 13:09 pm
“The Reconstruction and Development Programme that aimed to create a gigantic welfare state was abandoned in hopes that the more market-orientated policies of Mbeki would help create more jobs. That hasn’t worked either, and now we’re back to a government primarily concerned with the welfare state after the “tide that lifts all the boats” project was abandoned.”
True enough. The RDP was never given a chance to work instead that nonracial “socialist agenda” was squashed by the “business friendly” Mbeki and his BEE/AA friends in Anglo-American and UCT.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 13:04 pm
“That is why I fully support the proposal that reliable officials from the Department of Racial Classification be brought back as ad hoc consultants. They have valuable experience in classifying people racially, by careful scientific observation as to whether an ordinary HB pencil remains fixed in the hair of a given person of indeterminate race.”
Agreed. It least it would be fair, objective and much more transparent – and relieve individual employers of the heavy burden of having to decide such unsavory things.
OB, do you think Maggs would be willing to consider returning from his life of enforced idleness in Mumbai to co-chair the ad hoc panel on racial classification? (BTW, the panel, in keeping with the right to dignity, will apply racial phenotype testing only as a last resort, in those rare instances when a subject declines to appropriately self-classify, or where ancestral records are inadequate or ambiguous.)
Thanks a lot.
ozoneblue says:
February 27, 2012 at 12:35 pm
Andrew
February 27, 2012 at 12:29 pm
“…perhaps you are a big racist since your entire outlook on life and evaluation of humanity is based on it”
Perhaps some clarification is in order. If I did indeed refer to a black man as coloured, then it was a typo.
The argument that I tried to make was broader than just with respect to AA for coloured people.
If AA was properly implemented by goverment, then the court case would not have been required. It is a bit silly to require of the ‘overconcentrated coloureds’ to move from areas of ‘high concentratedness’ to areas of ‘low concentratedness’.
In the same manner, appointment of underqualified black people instead of qualified whites is just silly and not what AA was suppose to be.
I plead guilty that I’m looking at things through racially tinted glasses, but I do not belive that all blacks are inferior to whites or that white people should be driven into the sea! I therefore plead not guilty to being a racist.
It seems that you suggest we move away from using terms such a white, coloured and black? I don’t believe that is possible.
Anyway, what is a coloured person? That ‘tribe’ legislated into existence somewhere in the 1950′s?
Andrew
February 27, 2012 at 14:42 pm
“It seems that you suggest we move away from using terms such a white, coloured and black? I don’t believe that is possible.”
Why did you leave out the color “indian”?
Is it because they bargain there way to power and are often described as the Jews of Africa and you are some sort of antisemite too?
@ Andrew
“Anyway, what is a coloured person? That ‘tribe’ legislated into existence somewhere in the 1950′s?”
Ask Jansen and Manuel, they tend to speak for this “tribe”. Good point and I can’t wait to see how the courts will navigate this “definition” thingy.
@ Zoo Keeper
How can we avoid the the issue of head count? Without specific, numerical goals, how do we measure compliance & effectiveness? In a society like ours, where racism is so entrenched, there are so many subtle ways of excluding people from (job) opportunities that we will get nowhere without targets.
Jama ka Sijadu says:
February 27, 2012 at 15:13 pm
The only value of specific, numerical goals, is that they provide an easy rule of thumb for people out of their depth when forced to think abstractly.
Why would anyone need them if government was doing its job of facillitating (another abstraction) entrepreneurship?
ozoneblue says:
February 27, 2012 at 13:30 pm
Nee, jy lieg!
Dit is omdat die ANC se tjommies in Cosatu en die SAKP so langtand aan enigiets te doen met besigheid kou. Soos, nou weer, Cosatu met Manuel se Nasionale Ontwikkelingsplan.
Well then Brett could you perhaps give us a demonstration of some abstract thinking & offer some answers to the question posed by Andrew right at the beginning?
How do you propose we address the negative effects of white minority rule of the last +- 350 years since Van Riebeeck and apartheid in particular?
Since people were excluded on the basis of race, the remedy should also be based on race, no?
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com says:
February 27, 2012 at 11:39 am
If you’d fucked off sooner you could have made some bucks – they do tell the NP used to offer repatriation incentives. Which were never taken up.
Anyway, I hope this campaign can be halted once we can be sure you’ve really gone – I quite like Indians – with one exception.
Jama ka Sijadu
February 27, 2012 at 15:13 pm
“there are so many subtle ways of excluding people from (job) opportunities that we will get nowhere without targets.”
Which is of course the big bullshit story behind CRT that we cannot detect racism yet it must be there and therefore we need a much more obvious form of racism to compensate for the undetectable racism.
It is almost like saying we cannot detect corruption but there must be lots of it and therefore we need to be more conspicuously corrupt just to compensate for the undetectable corruption.
Jama ka Sijadu says:
February 27, 2012 at 15:34 pm
Maggs’ buddy Mwangi answered that inadvertently last night.
Jama ka Sijadu says:
February 27, 2012 at 15:34 pm
Tell me about those negative effects nexts time you stop at a robot.
“How do you propose we address the negative effects of white minority rule of the last +- 350″
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 12:24 pm
LOL Dworky,
“DON’T WORRY BLACK MAN – YOU ARE NOT ON YOUR OWN!”
Inspirational!
Did you come up with that all by yourself or did you draw on OB for the creative stroke?
p.s. You will be liable for my hernia that I’m about to develop.
Brett Nortje
February 27, 2012 at 15:36 pm
Hey Goofy,
“… once we can be sure you’ve really gone”.
I’m gone.
Had a pic taken of me just to prove it.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=320240971361010&set=p.320240971361010&type=1&theater
@Brett
With respect, sarcasm, shifting goalposts & blaming everything on the government doesn’t really make for honest, constructive debate, especially on a forum like this.
But that’s assuming you people are interested in really debating the issues rather that throwing trite jibes at each other.
Zoo Keeper says:
February 26, 2012 at 15:40 pm
“I believe your point should be refined just a tad – that person only has one life to live, and yet, for his/her entire life, that person will be discriminated against for a situation he had nothing to do with.”
The price we pay for the sins of the fathers are indeed high.
Now if you could imagine having discriminated against in one form or another for 350 years… “…for a situation he had nothing to do with”
Discrimanation across generations…
Andrew says:
February 27, 2012 at 16:10 pm
Hey, I’d love to meet and be photographed with a 350 year old man!
I’d pay!
@ JKS
Brett missed his pills this morning.
very interesting post
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/brentmeersman/2012/02/27/an-apartheid-beneficiarys-guide-to-the-budget/
Andrew
February 27, 2012 at 16:10 pm
“The price we pay for the sins of the fathers are indeed high.”
The price “we” pay will be the price payed by my kid and his kids after him. Don’t fucking pretend for one moment that you are going to pay that price personally – because you probably already have a good education/cush job based on your “apartheid privileges” just like myself and PdV. That why it is so easy to throw about concepts like the “sins of our forefathers” because you haven’t a clue what that it is going to cost. And when the going gets tough you will probably emigrate to Australia where you will betray the most vulnerable sections of the “racist Whites” i.e. the “white trash” who can go nowhere and that you look down at as “stupid” and (unlike you and PdV I assume) unable to “take advantage of apartheid” when they should.
‘Zoo Keeper
February 27, 2012 at 8:15 am
Dmwangi
As an aside, “Western white” culture has no historical tolerance of homosexuality. The Hollywood movies from the 80s and early 90s would reflect how men could be blackmailed over being gay, because society found that unacceptable.
The Christian churches have a long history of anti-homosexual sentiment, in fact of vocal advocacy against homosexuality. They’re still battling with homosexual marriage and openly homosexual priests. That’s why singers such as George Michael stayed in the closet until the late 90s at the earliest.
I would say that “Western” culture has simply been exposed for a generation longer than “African” culture and therefore finds tolerance an easier thing to do. It is very incorrect though to state that homosexual tolerance is a cultural “norm” for the “West”. Its a difficult generalisation to make.’
First, you need not lecture me about Western history. I’m at least as schooled in the Western tradition as you.
Second, it’s inaccurate and hugely naive to believe tolerance of homosexuality just came on the scene w/your ‘enlightened’ generation. Ancient Greece was permeated with homosexual acts and it was not only tolerated but celebrated in some parts. (See my reference to Maggs). The latest shibboleth of ‘tolerance’ vis-a-vis homo marriage is a descendant of JS Mill and the resulting shift away from classical liberalism toward its modern ‘autonomy’- based variant. Unfortunately this is a deep perversion as liberalism was founded upon freedom of conscience but is now committed to imposing its views of human sexuality on everyone — including children (see PdV’s post rating teachers for how well they inculcate homosexual ‘tolerance’ in schools)– and bludgeoning its opponents with cries of ‘bigot,’ ‘backward,’homophobe,’ etc.
I believe the Enlightenment project was predicated upon the belief that ppl like homosexual advocates should have open access to the public square to use reason, logic, evidence, etc. to persuade a majority that their view is correct. I do not believe it was envisaged that the pink mafia would bully its opponents and use the judiciary to implement policies that are deeply repugnant to the majority’s culture.
Textbook BEE:
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=282537&sn=Detail&pid=71616
Why is Home Affairs renting a building from an ANC MP? – DA
Dion George
27 February 2012
Dion George says new lease deal is 57% more expensive than the one it replaced
SCOPA needs to get to the bottom of inflated lease deal for ANC MP
The Home Affairs lease deal that will benefit Parliament’s Finance Committee chairperson, Thaba Mufamadi MP, is 57% more expensive per square metre than the contract for the Department’s previous building (see report).
Over the eight-year lease period, government will pay R60 million more to do business with Mufamadi’s company, Manaka Property Investments, compared to its previous lease agreement. The total value of the contract is R265.5 million.
This information has been revealed in a reply to a parliamentary question submitted by the Democratic Alliance (DA). A copy of the question and reply can be seen below.
However, the Minister of Home Affairs has refused to answer parliamentary questions on how widely the tender was publicised, which other companies were shortlisted and which other properties were considered.
All matters pertaining to the tender process were referred to the Minister of Public Works, Thulas Nxesi. This is the same Minister who will need to account to the Presidency’s Monitoring and Evaluation unit for failing to respond appropriately to SCOPA about corruption and mismanagement in the Public Works Department. The disclaimer from the Auditor General reflects the dysfunctionality in his Department.
It is clear that we cannot rely on an ANC Minister to come clean on what led to an ANC MP winning this inflated contract. I will therefore be requesting the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Themba Godi, to call Minister Nxesi to the committee to answer questions on the dubious Home Affairs lease.
The building that Home Affairs moved into in November 2011 is owned by Manaka Property Investments. Besides Mufamadi, who is the majority shareholder, other shareholders include Limpopo premier Cassel Mathale and the former chairman of the Limpopo tender board, Jannie Moolman.
Mufamadi is currently under investigation by Parliament’s ethics committee for potential conflicts of interest. While this investigation needs to deal with the conflict of interest around Mufamadi’s role as an MP and his business with government, SCOPA must look into the circumstances of the awarding of the lease contract.
SCOPA has oversight over all public spending. It is the job of this committee to ensure that public money is not pilfered by the politically connected at the expense of the poor. The evidence suggests that the Department of Home Affairs is paying inflated rates to politically connected people for their new buildings. The Department of Public Works must explain to SCOPA how decisions on the lease of this building were made.
Statement issued by Dr Dion George MP, DA Representative on the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, February 27 2012
@ Dmwangi
““Western” culture has simply been exposed for a generation longer than “African” culture and therefore finds tolerance an easier thing to do. ”
With respect, Dmwangi, you are gravely mistaken. Our African people enjoyed alternative sexual orientations wll before the colonialist imposition of Christocentric heteromativity. (See Martin Bernal, ‘Black Athena,’ on the dynamic synthesis of gay lifestyle in Africa, which was transmitted through Egypt, thence to Athens, leading to the invention of “Greek.”)
It saddens me that you, as a graduate of one of the universities most admired by whitists everywhere, should fall victim to the liberal mythos of Afrocentric homophobos.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 18:55 pm
Hey Dworky,
“leading to the invention of ‘Greek.’”
The Greeks were INVENTED?
Darwin will turn in his grave!
MDF:
1) That is not my quote.
2) While I’m sure that there were always some sexual ‘outliers’ who deviated from the norm, I know of no African culture that promoted as an ideal, or even tolerated, homosexual ‘companionate’ marriage of the type being foisted on us by the Western-backed pink mafia.
You can try to spin African history/anthropology if you’d like but there is a reason why there are several dozen derogatory Bantu and Nilotic words for homos whose etymologies can be traced back thousands of years.
That’s strange!
You’re clearly ignorant of the well-known Ooga-Booga tribe.
Dmwangi -
Why not try suing the “Western-backed pink mafia” for the mental anguish the mere thought of homosexual marriage is causing you?
@ Lisbeth/Dmwangi
To me, it is not so much the “Western-backed pink mafia” that is the problem. It bothers me more that the LIBERAL media and the elite graduate schools elide the fact that Our People were enthusiastic catamites, sodomites and sapphists well before the Athenians invented sophism – and millennia before so-called “pink liberation” emerged from the smoking ruins of Stonewall.
‘Lisbeth
February 27, 2012 at 20:32 pm
Dmwangi -
Why not try suing the “Western-backed pink mafia” for the mental anguish the mere thought of homosexual marriage is causing you?’
I have a better plan. Rather than running to the judiciary, I’m counting on democratic inertia. At some point the zealots will overplay their hand and try to impose some GLBTQ/gender studies radicalism that is so odious to traditional African culture that the reaction it evokes will make the toyi-toying of the 80′s seem mild by comparison.
Just keep denying us the right to govern ourselves in accordance with our culture….
‘Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 21:01 pm
@ Lisbeth/Dmwangi
To me, it is not so much the “Western-backed pink mafia” that is the problem. It bothers me more that the LIBERAL media and the elite graduate schools elide the fact that Our People were enthusiastic catamites, sodomites and sapphists well before the Athenians invented sophism – and millennia before so-called “pink liberation” emerged from the smoking ruins of Stonewall.’
Try spreading these lies in Umlazi. Let’s see how enthusiastic ppl are about your revisionist history.
Dmwangi
February 27, 2012 at 21:02 pm
Hey Dm,
“Just keep denying us the right to govern ourselves in accordance with our culture….”
You sure have Dworky and Lisbeth terrified!
Do tell what you will do – you did run away from your country at the slightest discomfort so maybe you grew some balls since (more than hiding behind the internet that is)
Dmwangi
February 27, 2012 at 21:05 pm
Dm,
“the elite graduate schools elide the fact that Our People were enthusiastic catamites, sodomites and sapphists well before the Athenians invented sophism”
Does that include the elite graduate school which you went to, the one that will impress White people?
Lisbeth
February 27, 2012 at 20:32 pm
Hey Lisbeth,
“the mere thought of homosexual marriage is causing you?”
Dm did teach me about cognitive dissonance (not that I know what it means).
Do you really think he’s affected?
Dmwangi
February 26, 2012 at 21:05 pm
OB:
“Culture is not static but typically when whites talk about it ‘evolving’ they are referring to Africans adopting Western cultural practices. That is not going to happen, nor should it.”
DM: you gotta be joking. It would take pages and pages to list all the western cultural attachments, influences, goodies desires, etc that almost all Africans desire, even Democracy. Please. What I never get is since africans so desire and reach for western influence, which you seem to deny they are doing, why oh why do they hate the west so much. Please, be real.
I mean really, does JZ wear skins or suit and tie in Parliament and when attending the vast majority of his duties? Does he ride a buffalo to attend village meetings or ride in expensive western cars? Does juju deny himself anything which comes from the west? Even African rap music and black hip accents are western.
And if I may ad, think more than twice about evolving like the Chinese, who I note also wear western suits, yet love dictatorship and abhor human rights.
Ease up on the western world, and if you have any real intelligence, appreciate those global democracies who supported sanctions to bring down apartheid. They are not the baddies you seem to think they are, and what they offer is the future in Africa.
With respect, Maggs, you are conflating Dmwangi with me.
I obtained my Phd at a small community college in rural Slovenia, of which most whitists have never heard. (The great Zizek delivered a single guest lecture, which I missed.) By contrast, Dmwangi did 16 years of post-doctoral research at a large university in England.
Sirjay:
You cannot be serious.
1) I’m quite confident I have as thorough an understanding of African and the Western tradition as you. If you’d like to debate anything from Plato to Nozick, Nkrumah to Nyerere, I’m game.
2) You’ll notice that I never disparaged Western culture wholesale. In fact, I explicitly stated that there has been a great deal of cultural cross-pollination. What I objected to is Western countries imposing their values on countries like Uganda vis-a-vis homosexual rights legislation. If an African country wants to voluntarily adopt a Western idea, practice, custom, innovation, etc., fine. But don’t foist it on them.
3) The arrogance of your post is not subtle. You presume Western culture is superior because it has done well at providing material goods that all people seek. If that was the entirety of culture, I would be impressed. But it’s not. There are many African cultural values that Western countries would do well to adopt but won’t because they erroneously assume that knowledge only resides with those whose GDP/capita is X+.
4) Ease up on the African culture, and if you have any real intelligence, appreciate that human flourishing is not captured in GDP or UN HDI. The incessant need in Western thought to quantify everything leads you guys to discount non-quantifiable criteria of flourishing (e.g. Community, family, spirituality, meaning, affirmation, etc.) African cultures do better on these measures.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 21:46 pm
Hey Dworky,
“By contrast, Dmwangi did 16 years of post-doctoral research at a large university in England.”
I get the impression that Dmwangi is very learned and knowledgeable about all matters African.
Would it be appropriate for me to ask Dm to assist my friend who has to write an essay on “Azande Homosexuality” or would that be cheating?
p.s Just one thing bothers me – Dm said February 27, 2012 at 19:15 pm
“… there are several dozen derogatory Bantu and Nilotic words for homos whose etymologies can be traced back thousands of years.”
Does that, in simple terms, mean that homosexuality did not exist in African history for thousands of years?
p.p.s. Dworky stop sniggering – it does happen that one can learn all about African culture at a university which will impress White people.
It is also possible that someone living in a small, backward country on the African east coast to know all about African people across the entire continent, throughout history.
It may sound awfully arrogant, pompous, conceited, egotistical (a bit looney too) but such knowledge has been known to have been acquired by an individual who attended a graduate school which impresses White people.
Catamite,
‘p.s Just one thing bothers me – Dm said February 27, 2012 at 19:15 pm
“… there are several dozen derogatory Bantu and Nilotic words for homos whose etymologies can be traced back thousands of years.”
Does that, in simple terms, mean that homosexuality did not exist in African history for thousands of years?’
As I said numerous times, of course there were deviants who participated in MSM. Please name on African culture that had homosexual ‘companionate’ marriage????
Deviant sex is quite different from a socially sanctioned relationship.
I know you’re allergic to subtlety but just try to keep up.
Dmwangi
February 27, 2012 at 22:23 pm
Hey Dm,
“Please name on African culture that had homosexual ‘companionate’ marriage????”
There was no such thing (as I learned from you).
p.s. My friend needs to write a short essay on “Azande Homosexuality” for his woodwork diploma. He is not very bright. Will you help him?
Azande practiced militaristic pederasty as did the Spartans. Homo marriage as currently envisaged is entirely different.
Moreover, picking out a tribe here or there from literally thousands merely shows what I already said: homosexual activity was, and still is, representative of an extreme outlier in African culture.
Tell your friend to go seek the advice of the elders in Umlazi since homosexual marriage is so prevalent in African culture.
Let me know what they tell him.
Dmwangi
February 27, 2012 at 22:40 pm
Hey Dm,
Do you have a contact list of “elders in Umlazi”?
p.s. Do you know any pigmies from the Equatorial jungles – I want to learn how to make poisoned arrows. Please introduce me. I need to kill Brett’s prized pigeon; urgently.
All I know about Umlazi elders is that they love to smack down any “Eulwakwhanzipo” (“sissy boy”), who appears in their path. But that reflects the toxic influence of Bishop Colenso and his earnest Christianists, not any indigenous culture.
BTW, did not Zille tealady, Lindiwa Mazibuko grow up in Umlazi? What does she say on this subject?
Are these the “Born Free’s” ?
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=282524&sn=Detail&pid=71616
‘Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 23:04 pm
All I know about Umlazi elders is that they love to smack down any “Eulwakwhanzipo” (“sissy boy”), who appears in their path. But that reflects the toxic influence of Bishop Colenso and his earnest Christianists, not any indigenous culture.’
Please. No Christian Bishop is pulling the strings of any elders.
Btw, I strongly condemn violence against homosexuals and taught my boys to do the same. We were strictly speaking here of the right of Western countries– and their proxy NGO’s, universities, media, etc.,–to influence what legislation African countries codify into domestic law (e.g. Uganda or Zim).
Boarding a flight now. I’ll let you and Maggs settle it….
Dmwangi
February 27, 2012 at 23:11 pm
Dm,
“Boarding a flight now.”
Better not use any of the Western airlines.
Fly Thailand’s PC Air.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 27, 2012 at 23:04 pm
Dworky,
You should be ashamed of yourself – your tone is mocking of Dmwangi!
When he said “Please name on African culture that had homosexual ‘companionate’ marriage” he did not mean that literally.
He meant ignore African communities where homosexual relationships thrived in order to prove that a single African culture existed across the entire continent (except in the Western cape which was unoccupied until White people arrived).
And Dm meant that Egypt was not to be considered for this discussion – we all know that the Pyramids (hence the Egyptians) were brought in from outer space by aliens, so it does not count.
Dmwangi
February 27, 2012 at 22:05 pm
“1) I’m quite confident I have as thorough an understanding of African and the Western tradition as you. If you’d like to debate anything from Plato to Nozick, Nkrumah to Nyerere, I’m game.”
Plato is carbon dated 400 BC. Nkrumah – 1900 AD. How do you manage to compare the pink politics of two figures so far removed in space and time?
With relative ease. Both make claims about the nature of ethics and politics and these claims impinge upon those of the pink mafia and their tactics. Test the claims of each against reality.
Space and time are really irrelevant when it comes to ontology. Unless you’re referring to something from ‘Being And Time.’
ozoneblue
February 27, 2012 at 15:37 pm
Hey Racist White Guy,
“we need a much more obvious form of racism to compensate for the undetectable racism.”
Like this?
…“Sorry whites only as per owner Mark Spence” …
Spence said he was not racist. “I come from Zimbabwe and I went to school with black people and I would never do something like this.
I am not sure why he [the staff member] would behave like this, but he might have a problem with black people because the man is an old, white South African who was involved with the military during the old South African government.”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2012/02/28/sorry-whites-only
@Dmwangi
In South Africa, because some considers lesbianism as unnatural, women get violated in the most disturbing manner, through so called corrective rape.
Is this really what we strive for?
The Yankees got their knickers in a knot after a US Supreme Court judge expressed her admiration for the SA Constitution:
http://bunkerville.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/cass-sunstein-supreme-ginsburg-and-the-s-african-constitution/
Yet here locally – good riddance to bad rubbish?:
http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-02-28-analysis-the-constitutional-court-is-the-next-cow-to-the-abattoir
Allways thought the Concourt is some cow.
MMOOEEEE…..
Henri
February 28, 2012 at 8:19 am
Thanks Henri!
p.s. February 28, 2012 at 8:24 am – those in government making gurgling noises about the Constitutional Court can fart about all they like.
Then they have to live with the CC and its judgements.
South Africans are not about to give up our hard won freedoms because some poepholes want the liberty to steal all they can while they can.
Reviews will come and reviews will go but the CC will remain intact.
I reckon that South Africans will jealously guard our Constitution and those who are posturing against it will come off worse for wear.
Dmwangi
Africans do rule themselves, not sure how you believe they don’t?
If western powers are forcing legislation in return for grants, then the problem is not the demand but the begging bowl.
Europeans have a long history of documented homosexuality because it is documented. It also moves with the times, homosexuality not being very favourably looked at in Victorian times, etc. There has always been a tension.
As for the Greeks, well, they’re Greek…
@ Dmwangi
“If you’d like to debate anything from Plato to Nozick, Nkrumah to Nyerere, I’m game.”
What gives you the right to set the terms of debate up front? I want to debate the thought of Aristotle, Abelard and Aloysius, and have little interest in thinkers whose names begin with N or P.
Follow the money.
http://www.thenewage.co.za/44651-9-53-BEE_billions_shocker
The problem with history is that when the Romans were in charge they felt everything revolved around them. They could not envisage a world without their influence. Same with the Egyptians, British etc.
When people speak about equality and EE and AA being discriminatory they forget that the scales might be screwed to the side at the moment, but history has shown that the majority in such societies prevail and with time we find that the same EE and AA must be used to make sure that minorities are represented fairly in all spheres of society.
In South Africa there are about a 4.5m people who have european descent, there are 40.2m people who are descendants of african people. Work out what will happen in 50 years time to the demographics of the work force.
Thomas
February 28, 2012 at 15:01 pm
“The problem with history is that when the Romans were in charge they felt everything revolved around them. They could not envisage a world without their influence. Same with the Egyptians, British etc.”
Really. The Romans and the Egyptians were also RACISTS?
“FOR MANY people coming to radical politics–Blacks and whites alike–hatred of racism and a desire to get rid of it is a huge motivating factor. This is in contrast to some of the common assumptions about where racism comes from. The first is that racism is part of human nature–that it’s always existed and always will. The second is the liberal idea of racism–that it comes from people’s bad ideas, and that if we could change these ideas, we could get rid of it. Both assumptions are wrong. Racism isn’t just an ideology but is an institution. And its origins don’t lie in bad ideas or in human nature. Rather, racism originated with capitalism and the slave trade. As the Marxist writer CLR James put it, “The conception of dividing people by race begins with the slave trade. This thing was so shocking, so opposed to all the conceptions of society which religion and philosophers had…that the only justification by which humanity could face it was to divide people into races and decide that the Africans were an inferior race.” History proves this point. Prior to the advent of capitalism, racism as a systematic form of oppression did not exist. For example, ancient Greek and Roman societies had no concept of race or racial oppression. These weren’t liberated societies. They were built on the backs of slaves. And these societies created an ideology to justify slavery. As the Greek philosopher Aristotle put it in his book Politics, “Some men are by nature free, and others slaves, and that for these latter, slavery is both expedient and right.” However, because slavery in ancient Greece and Rome was not racially based, these societies had no corresponding ideology of racial inferiority or oppression. In fact, Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Early Christian societies had a favorable image of Blacks and of African societies. Septemus Severenus, an emperor of Rome, was African and almost certainly Black. “The ancients did accept the institution of slavery as a fact of life; they made ethnocentric judgments of other societies; they had narcissistic canons of physical beauty,” writes Howard University professor Frank Snowden in his book Before Color Prejudice. “Yet nothing comparable to the virulent color prejudice of modern time existed in the ancient world. This is the view of most scholars who have examined the evidence.”"
http://socialistworker.org/2002-2/431/431_08_Racism.shtml
OB
Here is your friend.
Lacks appreciation for racism and inequality. Sommer mix them up and hope for the best.
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/sandilememela/2012/02/28/enough-about-race-lets-talk-about-class/
Gwebecimele
February 28, 2012 at 16:32 pm
LOL. What can I say – the man is a fucking GENIUS.
“For far too long, whites have expected blacks to embrace them and treat them as heroes for simply being so-called anti-apartheid or guilt-ridden. But we now demand that whites (and blacks) raise the issue of class contradiction in our society, especially those inherent within the capitalist condition. Perhaps blacks know that when white comrades and intellectuals raise the issue of class, we will sooner see how blacks have betrayed themselves.”
Lets rather talk on how to more fairly distribute Anglo American’s immense wealth build over a century of cheap migrant labor instead of this pitiful “whiteness” complex that gets shoved down our throats.
Yeeesh – I love this guy.
“It is a nice gesture by some whites to not only try to be kind to blacks by blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and apartheid, but to shut up – as espoused by Rhodes University philosophy lecturer Samantha Vice.”
he he.
OB
Now that we are having instruments that are starting to bite let us not be misled by the confusion of inequality and racism. Let AA, BEE and other tools yield their targets while “tide that raises all boats” takes care of the rest.
WARNING FOR SA
” In Tunisia, the probability of unemployment rises with higher levels of education, reaching nearly 30% among the highest-qualified individuals, compared with only 8% among the least skilled. Education in the developing world must be reformed to cater to the demand for skills.”
Jutting is Head of Poverty Reduction at the OECD Development Centre in Paris.
Gwebecimele
February 29, 2012 at 11:03 am
“Let AA, BEE and other tools yield their targets while “tide that raises all boats” takes care of the rest.”
Sorry my dear friend. Once comrades who think like I do take over power the black entitlement gravy train comes to a grinding halt. Further you should count yourself very lucky if you don’t end up with a bullet in the back of your head. You think you can build your entitlement on the graves of millions of African workers and get away with it cause you are black and you are cosy with the rich white people you better think again.
Now have a very nice day.
@ OB
How did you know that I am cosy with rich white people? Ask Sirjay I am full of praises for white men. Bret will also tell you that African workers and unions hate me.
Gwebecimele
February 29, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Sorry I was talking to a metaphorical “you”.
ozoneblue
February 29, 2012 at 11:58 am
Hey OB,
The advocacy for transformation is not strong and determined enough.
It’s time perhaps for government to intervene and close off universities to only Black people – perhaps 10 places for non-Blacks.
Similar restriction for companies doing businesses.
Local government should be compelled to allow new residential and commercial property development only for that owned by Black people.
Also senior (from supervisor up) jobs in the private and public sector should only be allowed to be held by Blacks.
What do you think?
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
February 29, 2012 at 13:35 pm
“What do you think?”
I bullet in the head won’t be enough for fascist morons like you.
ozoneblue
February 29, 2012 at 13:39 pm
Hey OB,
Don’t be angry.
Rather tell me why that plan won’t work!
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
February 29, 2012 at 13:45 pm
I’m not angry. The problem is that you think I’m stupid or that I’m joking. But more and more people are opening their eyes and they are beginning to note that it is racist rent-seeking scumbags like you who are abusing RACE to protect the capitalist interests that knows no color.
ozoneblue says:
February 28, 2012 at 16:52 pm
Lets rather talk about where the money is going to come from for child grants and old age pensions month 3 after you’ve put your grandiose little scheme into operation.
“Lets rather talk on how to more fairly distribute Anglo American’s immense wealth build over a century of cheap migrant labor instead of this pitiful “whiteness” complex that gets shoved down our throats.”
This Minister has a different message in his lifetime. Perhaps he did not attend the sermon/Indaba in Cape Town recently.
http://www.fin24.com/Companies/Mining/Zim-sick-and-tired-of-Implats-delays-20120229
Brett Nortje
February 29, 2012 at 14:20 pm
Ditto for you – see comment to your racist Indian friend maggot.
See how the real racist whites start wiggling and squealing when we start talking about class.
ozoneblue
February 29, 2012 at 13:54 pm
Hey OB,
Pah!
I don’t think you’re joking – in fact I take you very, very seriously. Ask Brett!
I do think though that you’re jealous that my 9 year old son is that captain of the PROVINCIAL CRICKET TEAM especially since he is an awful player.
p.s. ozoneblue
February 29, 2012 at 13:54 pm
OB,
“more and more people”
You mean you and Dmwangi don’t you!
@ Maggs
“It’s time perhaps for government to intervene and close off universities to only Black people – perhaps 10 places for non-Blacks.”
With respect Maggs, this is absurd. Why would you want to keep place for non-blacks at universities? The fact is that whitish types remain grossly over-represented at every level for which university qualifications are required. I recommend that whites henceforth study either at UNISA, or go abroad. (But those who already are registered be permitted to complete their degrees.)
Thanks.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
February 29, 2012 at 14:51 pm
Pah Dworky,
“Why would you want to keep place for non-blacks at universities?”
You are a filthy racist!
Go back to India and talk nonsense to 1,2 billion other RENT-SEEKING coolies.
How to govern a province that is a basket case already:
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2012/02/29/malema-joins-strike-fray
Malema joins strike fray
Feb 29, 2012
Boitumelo Tshehle
Cautions strikers they could lose the support of the community if they carried on fighting
EMBATTLED ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema has told more than 7,000 dismissed Impala Platinum Mine workers not to allow white people to divide them.
Malema, who was accompanied by North West Premier and deputy secretary of the ANC Thandi Modise, told the striking miners at Freedom Park sports ground in Rustenburg that Impala was using apartheid tactics to divide its workers.
“These mines belong to us. They are on our land and if we do not benefit we must fight until we benefit. We will never side with white capitalist,” Malema said.
Malema told them not to allow white people to use them, saying “you must know your rights and fight for what is rightfully yours”.
“It’s been a long time since white people took over our land. The mine must re-employ all of you, with benefits. You deserve it. We are not scared of them,” he said.
He asked the miners not to fight and kill each other.
Since the beginning of the strike three people have been killed and shops looted.
Malema said he knew that workers could not be wrong, but fighting each other was not acceptable.
“We know the enemy, so fight the enemy and not the community.”
He said they could lose the support of the community if they carried on fighting.
Malema said he was confident the employer (Impala Platinum) could afford the R9,000 demand.
He encouraged the workers to have faith in their union (National Union of Mineworkers.)
“It is your home and you cannot run away from the union,” he said.
He told them to be militant and radical, but killing undermined their demands.
Modise promised the angry crowd that the ANC leadership would fight their case until they got what they wanted. She promised to return next week to give feedback.
“The ANC will never walk away from the workers. We want people to make demands in a reasonable manner. We are going to make sure there is stability in the province and here at Impala,” Modise said.
Malema and Modise yesterday met with NUM and the mine management.
ozoneblue says:
February 29, 2012 at 14:36 pm
Ja, nes ek gedink het.
Dom d..s.
Brett Nortje
February 29, 2012 at 21:24 pm
Hey G (and others except Prof MO who is biased),
Do you think OB is “stupid or joking”?