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	<title>Comments on: On &#8220;deliberate falsehoods&#8221; and conspiracies</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10630</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10630</guid>
		<description>Julius Malema - Dark (Third) FORCES? This happened in broad daylight! http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2457311,00.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julius Malema &#8211; Dark (Third) FORCES? This happened in broad daylight! <a href="http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2457311,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2457311,00.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: ozoneblue</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10358</link>
		<dc:creator>ozoneblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10358</guid>
		<description>Anonymouse  // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:59 pm  

Thanks for the info.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymouse  // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:59 pm  </p>
<p>Thanks for the info.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10356</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10356</guid>
		<description>Prof - the standard for recusal set by the CC is just as it exiisted at common law, taking into account the R v Silber judgment, not higher. I do however agree that Harzenberg J&#039;s remarks &quot;Rerig meneer Ackerman, ek is verveeld [met jou saak]&quot; should&#039;ve indicated that his recusal was mandated - the CC however felt differently because in Silber it has been said that outward manifestation of judicial impatience with the case of one of the parties, although deprecable, ordinarily would not found a reason for recusal. That part of the CC&#039;s judgment is however water under the bridge. I think what ozoneblue is talking about is the part of the a quo judgment that has been overturned by the CC - where the CC upheld the NPA&#039;s appeal against Harzenberg J&#039;s order to quash the charges of conspiracy to commit crimes abroad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof &#8211; the standard for recusal set by the CC is just as it exiisted at common law, taking into account the R v Silber judgment, not higher. I do however agree that Harzenberg J&#8217;s remarks &#8220;Rerig meneer Ackerman, ek is verveeld [met jou saak]&#8221; should&#8217;ve indicated that his recusal was mandated &#8211; the CC however felt differently because in Silber it has been said that outward manifestation of judicial impatience with the case of one of the parties, although deprecable, ordinarily would not found a reason for recusal. That part of the CC&#8217;s judgment is however water under the bridge. I think what ozoneblue is talking about is the part of the a quo judgment that has been overturned by the CC &#8211; where the CC upheld the NPA&#8217;s appeal against Harzenberg J&#8217;s order to quash the charges of conspiracy to commit crimes abroad.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10355</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10355</guid>
		<description>ozoneblue - In a footnote in a thesis I&#039;m currently writing, I&#039;m saying the following regarding the Basson issue:

&quot;The CC however reserved for future judgment whether a fresh prosecution on these charges will offend the double jeopardy protection afforded by s 35(3)(m) of the Constitution because, even though the charges were quashed before plea and, even though Basson was therefore never in jeopardy of a conviction on those counts, evidence was led on those counts as well, enabling the court to make a finding on the body of evidence. See paras [248]-[259], [264] of the judgment. Two weeks later, according to media reports in Beeld, Sunday Times and SABC News, the NPA abandoned its right to prosecute Basson on those charges because it felt (unjustified, so it is submitted) that the double jeopardy principle would work in Basson’s favour and no reasonable prospect of a conviction existed. Thus, even though the CC practically ‘challenged’ the NPA to charge Basson again on those counts that were quashed and, if the question of double jeopardy became relevant, to present argument that Basson’s rights in s 35(3)(m) of the Constitution were not infringed or, if infringed, that the infringement amounted to a legitimate limitation of rights in terms of s 36 of the Constitution, the NPA decided not to pursue the matter further.&quot;

Hope this helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ozoneblue &#8211; In a footnote in a thesis I&#8217;m currently writing, I&#8217;m saying the following regarding the Basson issue:</p>
<p>&#8220;The CC however reserved for future judgment whether a fresh prosecution on these charges will offend the double jeopardy protection afforded by s 35(3)(m) of the Constitution because, even though the charges were quashed before plea and, even though Basson was therefore never in jeopardy of a conviction on those counts, evidence was led on those counts as well, enabling the court to make a finding on the body of evidence. See paras [248]-[259], [264] of the judgment. Two weeks later, according to media reports in Beeld, Sunday Times and SABC News, the NPA abandoned its right to prosecute Basson on those charges because it felt (unjustified, so it is submitted) that the double jeopardy principle would work in Basson’s favour and no reasonable prospect of a conviction existed. Thus, even though the CC practically ‘challenged’ the NPA to charge Basson again on those counts that were quashed and, if the question of double jeopardy became relevant, to present argument that Basson’s rights in s 35(3)(m) of the Constitution were not infringed or, if infringed, that the infringement amounted to a legitimate limitation of rights in terms of s 36 of the Constitution, the NPA decided not to pursue the matter further.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre De Vos</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10354</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre De Vos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10354</guid>
		<description>ozoneblue, you are being unfair to NPA. After losing the Basson case they went ALL THE WAY TO THE CC, arguing that the judge was biased in the case and should have recused himself (which would have resulted in mistrial and an opportunity to retry Basson). They lost because CC set a very high standard for recusal. Because of the rule that no person can be recharged for the same crime, it is impossible for them to recharge Basson now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ozoneblue, you are being unfair to NPA. After losing the Basson case they went ALL THE WAY TO THE CC, arguing that the judge was biased in the case and should have recused himself (which would have resulted in mistrial and an opportunity to retry Basson). They lost because CC set a very high standard for recusal. Because of the rule that no person can be recharged for the same crime, it is impossible for them to recharge Basson now.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10351</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10351</guid>
		<description>ozoneblue - google it, I&#039;m sure you&#039;ll find the explanation of &#039;double jeopardy&#039; by the NPA -  I read it in the papers at the time - I&#039;ll check and give yo a date if you wish. Having said that, however, like you and others I am still not convinced the NPA&#039;s decision not to re-charge in te light of the CC decision was the correct one. ... Signing off until a little later</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ozoneblue &#8211; google it, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll find the explanation of &#8216;double jeopardy&#8217; by the NPA &#8211;  I read it in the papers at the time &#8211; I&#8217;ll check and give yo a date if you wish. Having said that, however, like you and others I am still not convinced the NPA&#8217;s decision not to re-charge in te light of the CC decision was the correct one. &#8230; Signing off until a little later</p>
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		<title>By: ozoneblue</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10343</link>
		<dc:creator>ozoneblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10343</guid>
		<description>Anonymouse  // Jan 15, 2009 at 2:56 pm  

I agree. But my response was to Pierre&#039;s question as to why South African&#039;s believe in conspiracy theories. You should rather ask why we do not. 

I&#039;m not convinced at all by any explanations on this thread as to why Basson has not been prosecuted. I have seen no argument from the NPA after September 2005 to substantiate any of the dubious explaining-away-of-facts made here. We simply never hard of the Basson trial again because our freedom loving media are obsessed with Jacob Zuma and apparently simply don&#039;t care. Then you okes want to know why the everyday  man in the street believe in &quot;conspiracy theories&quot; and simply put doesn&#039;t trust our judicial system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymouse  // Jan 15, 2009 at 2:56 pm  </p>
<p>I agree. But my response was to Pierre&#8217;s question as to why South African&#8217;s believe in conspiracy theories. You should rather ask why we do not. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not convinced at all by any explanations on this thread as to why Basson has not been prosecuted. I have seen no argument from the NPA after September 2005 to substantiate any of the dubious explaining-away-of-facts made here. We simply never hard of the Basson trial again because our freedom loving media are obsessed with Jacob Zuma and apparently simply don&#8217;t care. Then you okes want to know why the everyday  man in the street believe in &#8220;conspiracy theories&#8221; and simply put doesn&#8217;t trust our judicial system?</p>
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		<title>By: SEBJENI</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10338</link>
		<dc:creator>SEBJENI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10338</guid>
		<description>My apologies to prof and all, for being out of topic, but I just want to ask about the strange procedure that is happening in this Zuma matter.

I thought a trial have to be conducted first and therefore if it happens that the parties do not agree on certain issue(s), then there would be a trial within a trial to determine whatever that would be at issue.

I raise this because it seems the whole trial of Zuma matter is likely to be conducted in all the courts of the land, 
there is no trial yet but the law reprts are almost full of the name: Zuma as if he is the only important individual.

Is this not an irregularity?, irrespective of whether the courts have accepted to entertain the applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies to prof and all, for being out of topic, but I just want to ask about the strange procedure that is happening in this Zuma matter.</p>
<p>I thought a trial have to be conducted first and therefore if it happens that the parties do not agree on certain issue(s), then there would be a trial within a trial to determine whatever that would be at issue.</p>
<p>I raise this because it seems the whole trial of Zuma matter is likely to be conducted in all the courts of the land,<br />
there is no trial yet but the law reprts are almost full of the name: Zuma as if he is the only important individual.</p>
<p>Is this not an irregularity?, irrespective of whether the courts have accepted to entertain the applications.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10335</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10335</guid>
		<description>Ishmael - Thanks, for once we agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ishmael &#8211; Thanks, for once we agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Ishmael Malale</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-deliberate-falsehoods-and-conspiracies/#comment-10334</link>
		<dc:creator>Ishmael Malale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=765#comment-10334</guid>
		<description>Anonymouse: 2:56 PM

Harms my brother !  I regret the ambivalence of the sentence. Apologies! I agree with you. Perusal of the judgments points out a very strong perpective on the issues. 

I need the CC to put an end to the disgreement on interpretation of s179.  It will certainly happen. 

We will not forget the historical links but they play little role in this regard. We will always be vigilant</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymouse: 2:56 PM</p>
<p>Harms my brother !  I regret the ambivalence of the sentence. Apologies! I agree with you. Perusal of the judgments points out a very strong perpective on the issues. </p>
<p>I need the CC to put an end to the disgreement on interpretation of s179.  It will certainly happen. </p>
<p>We will not forget the historical links but they play little role in this regard. We will always be vigilant</p>
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