I have new respect for ANC spokesperson, Jackson Mthembu, who was arrested on Thursday morning around 7 am for drunken driving in Cape Town but apparently gave a 21-minute telephonic interview to the South African Press Association (SAPA) - while in police custody – 90 minutes later. Now that is what I call a work ethic worth emulating.
During the interview Mr Mthembu passionately defended ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema for singing “shoot the boers, they are rapists” - before bursting into song himself. At this stage it is unclear whether Mthembu was really drunk at 7 in the morning and if he was, whether he had been partying the whole night or had started drinking very early in the morning.
Although I cannot claim that I have never been drunk at 7 am in the morning, I can confirm that I have never been arrested for drunken driving and I have definitely never given a media interview from a prison cell while allegedly under the influence of liquor. Respect bru!
Sadly, the said interview was not his best work as ANC spokesperson. Whether he slipped up because he was drunk or because he was in prison and did not have the Internet handy, is unclear. Malema obviously attacked Zille (she is apparently a Satanist) and De Lille (she is apparently not a fit wife) and sang the “kill a boer” song to detract attention from the fact that Julius has not been paying his taxes and has been lying about his business interests.
The media fell for this ploy hook, line and sinker. Malema is a genius at manipulating the media – a bit like Hitler, but without the mustache and without the scary uniforms and the homoerotic military parades. (Relax, I am not saying Malema is as evil as Hitler – just that he is very good at getting the media to play to his tune.)
Back to Mthembu, who explained to SAPA (while he was either sober or drunk, but definitely in police custody) that the “kill a boer” song did not constitute hate speech as it was an old struggle song:
This song was sung for many years even before Malema was born … Julius doesn’t even know who’s the writer of the song. He got it from us [the ANC]. You must blame the ANC, don’t blame Julius. But when you blame the ANC, then contextualise it.
The problem is that in 2003 the Human Rights Commission Appeal Committee found that chanting the “kill the boer, kill a farmer” did constitute hate speech. In an opinion written by Prof Karthy Govender, the appeal body, relying on the much narrower definition of hate speech in section 16(2) of the Constitution and not on the more expansive definition in section 10 of the Equality Act, rejected the line of reasoning offered by Mthembu from his prison cell.
The liberation effort, including the armed struggle, was directed against the policy of apartheid and against its supporters. One of the slogans used to mobilize people against Apartheid was ‘’Kill the Boer, Kill the farmer’’. It was a rallying call to resistance, defiance and acts of violence in furtherance of the objectives of defeating apartheid. In effect, it called for the ultimate harm to be visited upon persons deemed to be the enemy. It was a slogan created for a particular time and in a particular context. It reflected the intensity of the race based conflict that was raging in South Africa at the time….
There can be no doubt that the slogan, given its content, its history and the context in which it was chanted, would harm the sense of well being, contribute directly to a feeling of marginalisation, and adversely affect the dignity of Afrikaners. The slogan says to them that they are still the enemy of the majority of the people of this country. It contributes to the alienation of the target community and conveys a particularly divisive message to the majority community that the target community is less deserving of respect and dignity. This generalized slogan is directed against an entire community of people. Words convey meaning and do cause hurt and injury. There is a real likelihood that this slogan causes harm.
As apartheid had ended and the political situation had normalized it was not acceptable anymore to say “kill the boer” and if one does it constitutes hate speech on the basis of race.
I would therefore be surprised if an Equality Court, relying on the far wider definition of hate speech in the Equality Act, does not find Julius guilty of hate speech. Of course, it is not clear that the provision in the Equality Act is constitutional as it infringes on the right to freedom of expression and is far wider than the exclusion carved out by section 16(2) of the Constitution. It may be saved by the limitation clause but I am nots ure it will.
If I was Malema’s lawyer I would challenge the constitutionality of the relevant provision of the Act to try and escape responsibility and to appear to be a champion of the Constitution. That would be brilliant public relations and may even teach the media and ordinary South Africans a thing or two about freedom of expression.
However, if the Equality Court finds Julius guilty of hate speech it has wide powers to impose the appropriate punishment. It could order Julius to pay an amount of money to Solidarity or the Freedom Front (or maybe to donate his watch to one of these organisations?), or to apologise to white South Africans, or to do community service in Orania.
As for Mr Mthembu, I hope the ANC does not fire him. We all make mistakes, but few of us would show his dedication in getting our message – no matter how misguided – out there. If he was drunk as alleged, he should plead guilty and apologise to the ANC and the nation. Then he could continue to act as spokesperson for the ANC, which would allow all of us to snigger at him and make fun of his dedication to the cause of spin-doctoring. As the add says, that would be priceless.
In vino veritas. (I am not as think as you drunk I am.)
There are interesting parallels between the attempted populism of the worst of the godless, shameless ANC as it gets its tail in a crack and the reaction of Mad Mugabe towards white Zimbabweans whose betrayal he thought cost him a referendum.
Winnie blaming a man the world reveres for the ANC’s failures, dumbass Malema reverting to hate speech. It is going to be an interesting ride.
Mein gott this new ANC is a runaway PR disaster. Hire some consultants or something lads, the brand is starting to stink up the place.
Hmm
I wonder if the interview was given from the Mowbray police station, and what part the SAPS members – if any – played.
Wasn’t Mowbray the SAPS station that the hapless arm-waving / finger-pulling jogger was dragged off to after the Rondebosch Police station had given the blue light brigade short shrift?
To answer the question “is it right, is it wrong, acceptable or unacceptable” to these type of questions (singing controversial songs that might be construed as an incitement to violence against a specific group) it is often useful to reverse roles – how would the ANC and ANCYL react if a passionate right wing white or brown Afrikaner group were to sing “bliksem die swartetjies as hulle dit verdien” or something on similar lines.
I think that the answer is there would be uproar and outrage.
Do (or sing) unto others as you would have them do unto you is not a bad mantra in these type of situations.
Soccer will solve all problems! Ladumaaa!! Eish! Hlalala!
Prof De Vos – ‘… “kill the boer, kill three farmer” …’
Hmm, you’ve just created a new dimension to the song – THREE?!
An now the ANC has officially endorsed Malema’s hate speech. Zimbabwe, here we come!
Anonymouse, oops, maybe I typed that after drinking a cup of Motata tea! I have now corrected the mistake.
Just a note on the fast deteriorating level of public discourse under the Zuma leadership.
With the SABC fully controlled by the ANC and as the mouthpiece of the ANC, it is interesting to watch (the African language) TV news broadcasts. From it, the election strategy of the ANC under Zuma can be deduced. It casts a traceable shadow of ANC insider thinking (about the electorate) and coming strategy moving forward with a deeply divided party.
Suddenly the SACP/COSATU (especially Vavi et al) are downplayed by the SABC TV – with them receiving basically no coverage (in stark contrast to the situation before the election of Zuma when they backed him).
While Zuma/Malema (ANC/ANCYL) get coverage every time. Especially every move of Malema is covered and given airtime – with beautiful/favourable footage.
So: the election fault lines can be discerned. ANC/ANCYL (that is Zuma + Malema) vs SACP/COSATU (Nzimande/Mantashe/Vavi). Basically then, it’s the communists/workers’ class vs the youth league/tenderpreneurs/middle class. That way the populace – the populist factor – is divided (SACP/COSATU vs the Youth League).
If Zuma goes for a second term it would be on the back of the massive black youth vote. Frankly, I can’t see where that leaves the violently protesting left behind township dwellers – the feeding fodder of the tenderpreneurs/youth league/middle class. But it would leave the tenderpreneurs/youth league/middle class ANC grouping high and dry (and collecting the millions) at least until 2016.
And the whiteys? I think it leaves them rather bewildered. For in politics the last six months it is only the SACP that is talking sense (suggesting workable solutions to reign in corruption, etc.). But their “ooms” (in the schools and the SADF the past 40 years) brainwashed them against those godless communists. They’re left with only a slowly emerging grassroots tax boycott. The widespread local government rates boycott is (from what I hear) soon to openly spread to a massive boycott of national taxes. It will, I think, follow the meteoric rise of Malema and the Malema-types in politics.
Interesting years ahead in the South African kleptocracy (as the British tabloids dubbed us).
But it is clear so far that Zuma is counting on Malema/Youth League support for a second term, and will defend Malema to the hilt. A Zuma second term will thus come at a price. The price of a more deeply divided society, but an “empowered” Youth League, under the wings of Zuma. A Zuma with a Youth League power base.
Interesting to recall that the Zimbabwean warlords kept their thugs but lost their labour movement.
We better start researching the Hitler-Youth.
You are quite correct Peter.
And why shouldn’t the place we call South Africa stinks while the ruling party, right from its president who happens to be the president of the country too, cabinet ministers, ANC politicians and members of the alliance in and out of government and the entire ANC youth league are peddling undemocratic, immoral and lawlessness practices day in day out, without anyone calling them to order.
Now it is said that just like in the case of Malema where an MEC prevented traffic officers from dealing with Malema’s over speeding accordingly, Skwatsha tried to do the same in the case of Mthembu.
The Mawbrey police officers, who were so diligent in dealing with Maxwele allegedly for insulting Zuma’s cars, were now unwilling to open the case against Mthembu.
One can only hope that Mthembu’s case does not get bungled upon to let him off the hook like they did in the Tony Yengeni’s case.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20100312042240420C210929
I am no great supporter of Cmd Malema, but I do think the liberal press has not done him justice.
One must not ignore the context – the University of Johannesburg — in which Cmd Malema led struggling youth in this song. Whilst the lyrics may seem harsh to the ears of our farmers, the words are not to be taken literally. The word “kill” is best understood not as contemplating physical liquidation, but rather as a synonym for “decimate” or “extirpate.”
Finally, as Cmd Mthembu pointed out, highly offensive lyrics are still occasionally sung by liberals. Who does not catch the euphematic subtext that underpins a song like “White Christmas”?
I wonder….
Regarding our colour-conscious Constitution.
Surely we whiteys should commission Steve Hofmeyr to compose for us a song like “Shoot the kaffirs, they are useless…”, or something like that.
Then we can sing it at campusses and kunstefeeste.
If it’s OK, according to the Constitution and the HRC and the Public Protector and the Equality Court [ and whatever other institution loaded with deployed loyal cadres working towards a national democratic revolution] for Malema, it should be OK for us too.
Hate speech vs hate speech. South African style.
Mikhail, don’t you think this is taking it a bit far?
I mean your reference to “Who does not catch the euphematic subtext that underpins a song like “White Christmas”?”
I certainly have never read or understood it that way – in fact it never even occurred to me at all until you mentioned it now.
@ Henri
It pains me that you do not grasp that we have a transformative constitution. And that our equality clause is substantive rather that formal in character.
What that means is that equality and dignity are not symmetrical, as in an old fashioned liberal constitution. Blacks may say things about whites that whites cannot say about blacks. Anyway black people are inacapable of racism.
Hope this clears things up for you.
Is the constitution coming under pressure?
Kader Asmal
Regarding GENERAL Cele
http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/article351441.ece
“Under section 205, the police are described as a service (my emphasis) and under subsection (3), they are enjoined to uphold and enforce the law, which would involve strict adherence to the Constitution.
As for Cele’s burgeoning head, he will have to look at section 207(1), which refers to the appointment by the president of the national commissioner (my emphasis). There are also provincial commissioners.
In passing those idiotic proposals, the Cabinet no doubt took into account these constitutional provisions. Will there be constitutional amendments to fit these whimsical fancies? “
So Mikhail,
Let’s see how it works:
A black man cannot be a racist (but I think maybe someone forgot to tell the Bushmen).
A colored man can be a racist, but only vis-a-vis a black man, not a white man.
A white man always is a racist against everyone else.
Where do the Chinese fit in? Any ideas anyone?
I have my tongue firmly in my cheek, as I can only hope to heaven do you too….
oHH get it already!
@ CD – MDF has his tongue in both cheeks in case you missed it.
“White Christmas” is unashamedly eurocentric and has no place in an African Context, even Cape Town.
Yes.
As Jesse Jackon used to say:
“A text without a context is pretext.”
Hi Spoiler
“White Christmas” can’t really be regarded as Eurocentric as it was written by Irving Berlin, a naturalized Jewish American. I agree though that it is not really thematically suitable for Africa, especially so because it is not a particularly good song. “Blue Skies” by the selfsame Berlin is far better and perhaps more appropriate.
@ Michael
Thanks hey…..
“If I was Malema’s lawyer… ” – Well Pierre, I am sure Julius is really glad to be getting some free legal advice from you. But you’re right,he desperately does need some “… brilliant public relations …” . More seriously though, I appreciate that you can stay somewhat objective about the issues, given their sensitivities and Malema’s rather astounding ability to offend people.
“Frosty the snowman was a jolly happy soul, With a corncob pipe and a button nose And two eyes made out of coal.”
I see an unpleasant undertone lending foundation to racial profiling in this song?
Ehud, I applaud your zeal in identifying the racism and implicit hate speech in this innocuous-sounding dittty.
Just a word of warning: Beware of focussing too much on a relatively trivial items such as this, since that may undermine ongoing campaigns against even worse manifestations of bigotry in popular culture.
I too think that the press acted in a pretty disappointing way in that Malema was allowed to succeed in detracting attention away from the alleged tax and business-related question marks hanging over swollen head. That is, the press may well have squandered an important opportunity to depict Malema as the self-serving wretch that far too few people see him as being. Given the way the press has handled this, Jules may benefit in at least two respects: first – and as the Professor said – it may pan out that Jules comes off looking like some sort of Gucci-wearing, beer-guzzling champion of constitutionalism. And that would be a complete travesty. Secondly, the masses may see Jules as a victim of the so-called white liberal media. Either way Juju comes of smelling like a black rose.
So I agree with the Professor: shame on the press. They should have (1) called Juju out with the rest of us for opting for ANC plan A and (2) – and this is really the more important point – they should have continued to press Malema on the tax and business questions. If the walls close in on Jules on the tax and business things, then it could be that something eminently desirable would happen in our country regarding Jule’s standing with at least some black members of the electorate: he’ll come off smelling like something – and it sure as hell won’t be roses.
Leigh is right.
If Cmd Julius’ infractions were properly investigated, his popularity would surely drop dramatically.
That is why JZ’ repeated brushes with the law ultimately torpoeded his ambition to become President of the country.
As for white Christmas, well you have to experience it to know it, and I assure you it’s all about innocence and the beauty of God and Mother nature at her best… you haven’t truly lived without experiencing it…. soft and unique, no two snow flakes the same ever, tucked into straw with your sweetie, prancing Belgians pulling your sleigh, brandy without coke, full moon…. magic, a sweet lover moist beside you.
A racist analogy? Get a life! As a Canadian South African, I can assure you, ain’t nothing like it.
Then a vibrant fire place, clothes abandoned, rugs of bear or wolf for your bodies to slide on, all the while brilliant snow making life pristine, clouding your windows, sealing you in sanity. Believe me, that’s what a white Christmas is.
This is the house that the ANC built…
This is the house that the ANC built.
This is the white Rover that parks in the house that the ANC built.
This is Juju, singing ‘kill the boer’, that drives the white Rover
without a number plate that parks in the house that the ANC built
This is the chief ANC spokesperson, gerook at 8am, in Cape town nogal; who bursts into song, defending ‘kill the boer’ singers who drive white Rovers without number plates that park in the house that the ANC built.
This is JZ, pop-riveted to 5 mother-in-laws, claiming ‘kill the boer’ singers have leadership qualities, that prompts a drunken ANC spokesperson to burst into song, from inside a prison cell, when same drive a Rover without number plates that park in the house that the ANC built.
It’s time I had a dop too …
Mikhail,
I have in the past seen some value in your approach to drawing attention to somewhat misguided views. But on a cautionary note, you might want to beware of hubris. Yes we all know that well-substantiated criticisms of certain ANC figures have not led to those figures loosing much in the way of popularity. But that is not to say that it could not happen – especially if the criticisms are one’s which could resonate more strongly with people in the light of the current economic climate. So cheek and levity aside, give black people some credit.
Leigh: I think most of us who have intelligent, caring black friends are more than willing to give black people credit. That’s not the problem. The problem is that a black mafia has taken control, and they don’t even know they are a mafia. They actually think its normal and have no idea whatsoever of the consequences.
What I say to my black friends is this: Its up to you. There is more beyond the rainbow than tenders and personal wealth. There is a future for your country and your children at stake; if you are a decent God loving mature man or woman, then you must promote a future suitable and sustainable for your children, and violence is not an option, they your children may die before their time as a result. Success doesn’t come about through corruption, dishonesty or deceit; it comes rather from diligence, honesty and commitment to all the people, as your culture taught with respect to ubuntu.
Leigh says:
March 12, 2010 at 21:32 pm
“So cheek and levity aside, give black people some credit.”
Right, Dworky is gonna do that cos you ask politely!
But it’s nice to see that you have noticed at last.
What, Maggs?
“But it’s nice to see that you have noticed at last.” ??? ‘at last’?
That looks to me like a put-down, Leigh? Condescending, isn’t he?
Looks to me like Maggs has a hard time treating women as equals!
I would follow the smell of burnt cooking and go smack him!
Maggs, have you started experimenting with your WMD yet?
Please do, if you have not?
@ Sirjay
“Most of us who have intelligent, caring black friends are more than willing to give black people credit.”
This beautiful and very sweet of you, Sirjay.
Thank you.
Brett Nortje says:
March 12, 2010 at 23:22 pm
“What, Maggs?”
Hey Brett,
If you don’t know “what” how did you conclude condescending and sexist?
BTW I’ll have you know that I am great cook – my friends will attest to that even though they always appear not to be hungry when I invite them to share a meal that I cooked.
it sound like everybody is angry,this was suppose to be the blog of sober people,and i believe malema is achieving what he wanted to do (making white people angry), he press a button and everybody jumps, from prof to hellen zille.what about banning all songs which inflict racial hatered or any speach thereof,including the de la rey…
Now this NEC member says she NEVER had this interview!
See: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23812947-how-nelson-mandela-betrayed-us-says-ex-wife-winnie.do
Ag jaassass.
Kenneth,
Michael agreed; also desirous of being an intelligent caring black friend to friends. As Julius intimated recently we must forgive the past but never forget so with that strength of mind i move we start in the past to impact the ever present future…
Here are a few more nursery rhymes / songs that need clarification
“Ba Ba Black sheep have you any wool yes sir yes sir three bags full”
Hulle noem haar liewer hecksie ”
Bobejaan klim die bergBobbejaan klim die berg
So haastig en so lastig
Bobbejaan klim die berg
So haastig en so lastig
Bobbejaan klim die berg
Om die Boere te vererg
Hooraa vir die jollie bobbejaan.
Sarie marais My Sarie Marais is so ver van my af
Ek hoop haar weer te sien
Sy het in die wyk van die Mooirivier gewoon
Nog voor die oorlog het begin
O bring my terug na die ou Transvaal
Daar waar my Sarie woon
This little piggy went to market,
This little piggy stayed home,
This little piggy had roast beef,
This little piggy had none,
And this little piggy cried,
“Wee, wee, wee.”
All the way home.
with that in mind i think i need A drink preferably intravenously !!
spoiler says:
March 12, 2010 at 13:37 pm
@ CD – MDF has his tongue in both cheeks in case you missed it.
… In other words – he has a forked tounge as well?
@ Kenneth is wrong.
I am not angry about Cmd Malema. We must remember he is still a young man, who has been struggling since he was fourteen months old.
I reserve my fury for “Madame” Zille, who points fingers at Cmd Malema while demolishing churches and awarding tenders to white engineers!
Chris says:
March 12, 2010 at 9:17 am
“Zimbabwe, here we come!”
Not likely, now that Zimbabwe has become the Banana republic or maybe just gone bananas.
Diplomatically speaking that is!
“Malaysians demand return of ‘liberated’ banana plantation”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article351465.ece
Anonymouse says:
March 13, 2010 at 9:28 am
LOL!
And well spotted.
“Ba Ba Black sheep have you any wool yes sir yes sir three bags full”(dilemma`s tax evasion)
Hulle noem haar liewer hecksie ”(helen zille)
Bobejaan klim die bergBobbejaan klim die berg
So haastig en so lastig
Bobbejaan klim die berg
So haastig en so lastig
Bobbejaan klim die berg
Om die Boere te vererg
Hooraa vir die jollie bobbejaan. (zuma for president)
Sarie marais My Sarie Marais is so ver van my af
Ek hoop haar weer te sien
Sy het in die wyk van die Mooirivier gewoon
Nog voor die oorlog het begin
O bring my terug na die ou Transvaal
Daar waar my Sarie woon (the TRC)
This little piggy went to market,
This little piggy stayed home,
This little piggy had roast beef,
This little piggy had none,
And this little piggy cried,
“Wee, wee, wee.”
All the way home. (winnies jealousy)
Kenneth, I am surprised you say I am angry. I even gave Julius some advice and made some jokes about this, so your comment that I am angry is a bit of a mystery to me. There are far more important things in life than whether Malema sings a silly song and embarrasses himself. You have obviously not seen me when I am angry!
I feel so sorry for Hayibo.com. How are they ever supposed to grow their market share when the headlining news is funnier than the satirists? (To be distinguished from the Satanists!!!!!)
@Kenneth
You eally are an uninformed prat of the highest order. De La Rey was a boer general and the song refers to the Anglo-Boer war …. nothing to to with apartheid.
See if you can find the words in the song that express hate towards blacks or are an incitement to kill. For you edification (if that’s possible) here are the words to that really racially offensive song :
Op ‘n berg in die nag
lê ons in die donker en wag
in die modder en bloed lê ek koud,
streepsak en reën kleef teen my
en my huis en my plaas tot kole verbrand sodat hulle ons kan vang,
maar daai vlamme en vuur brand nou diep, diep binne my.
De La Rey, De La Rey sal jy die Boere kom lei?
De La Rey, De La Rey
Generaal, generaal soos een man, sal ons om jou val.
Generaal De La Rey.
Oor die Kakies wat lag,
‘n handjie van ons teen ‘n hele groot mag
en die kranse lê hier teen ons rug,
hulle dink dis verby.
Maar die hart van ‘n Boer lê dieper en wyer, hulle gaan dit nog sien.
Op ‘n perd kom hy aan, die Leeu van die Wes Transvaal.
De La Rey, De La Rey sal jy die Boere kom lei?
De La Rey, De La Rey
Generaal, generaal soos een man, sal ons om jou val.
Generaal De La Rey.
Want my vrou en my kind lê in ‘n kamp en vergaan,
en die Kakies se murg loop oor ‘n nasie wat weer op sal staan.
De La Rey, De La Rey sal jy die Boere kom lei?
De La Rey, De La Rey
Generaal, generaal soos een man, sal ons om jou val.
Generaal De La Rey.
And for your total edification here’s a translation of that hate-filled call to kill :
On a mountain in the night
we lie in the darkness and wait
In the mud and blood
I lie cold,
grain bag and rain cling to me.
And my house and my farm,
burned to ashes
so that they could catch us
But those flames and that fire
burn now deep, deep within me.
De la Rey, De la Rey,
will you come to lead the Boers?
De la Rey, De la Rey
General, General, as one man
we’ll fall in around you
General De la Rey
And the Khakis (Brits) that laugh
– [just] a handful of us
against their whole great might –
With the cliffs to our backs,
they think it’s all over [with us]
But the heart of the Boer lies deeper and wider,
that they’ll still find [out]
At a gallop he comes,
the Lion of the West Transvaal
De la Rey, De la Rey,
will you come to lead the Boers?
De la Rey, De la Rey
General, General, as one man
we’ll fall in around you
General De la Rey
De la Rey, De la Rey,
will you come to lead the Boers?
De la Rey, De la Rey
General, General, as one man
we’ll fall in around you
General De la Rey
Because my wife and my child,
lie in a Hell-camp* and perish
And the Khakis’ vengeance **
is poured over
a nation that will rise up again
De la Rey, De la Rey,
will you come to lead the Boers?
De la Rey, De la Rey
General, General, as one man
we’ll fall in around you
General De la Rey
De la Rey, De la Rey,
will you come for the Boers?
[We're ready ...]
* Concentration camp
** Perhaps this could be translated as “And the Khakis vent their spleen on
a nation that will rise once again.”
Translation by Deirdre Fields
@ John Roberts
One must concede that the so-called “De la Rey” song does not directly conjure hatred — except against the now-departed British imperialists, a sentiment that our people might even applaud.
There is, however, a deeply insidious subtext: that, in the event of resurgent British imperialism, we would be dependent upon the return of a long-deceased Boer “General” to lead the forces of liberation. The clear implication is that the officers of the SANDF lack the “competence” or “experience” to mount an effective struggle. This, I find deeply offensive.
john
i might be wrong with the song, but if you remember clearly there was some incident(s)where white pupil attacked coulered
pupil singing the very same song, but that was not really my point, my point was and still is, let us not give julius too much attention because he seem to enjoy it,for prof i do not think i will ever see you angry, i hope not.
Let me make some things clear here: I do not think that Mikhail has made a habit of giving insufficient credit to black South Africans. And moreover (just in case this comes up later), I do not think Mikhail is a racist. Actually, I sometimes think that Mikhail’s responses and comments are more appropriate than trying to engage with people who are bent on wrongheadedness.
When I addressed Mikhail earlier in this discussion, all I wanted to communicate to him was this: in my opinion, and in this one instance, his message was less kind to black South Africans than it ought to have been.
Maggs,
With all respect mate, don’t come to see me as some sort of ally against Mikhail. As I have mentioned in this discussion and elsewhere, I do see some sense in taking the mick when people just aren’t prepared to think through their own submissions or the submissions that other people make.
If I could make a suggestion to you that I think I made some while ago: for all that Mikhail’s comments are meant to draw a bit of blood sometimes, read them the way you would read any other comments. Mikhail (like anyone else) can only use words to expressly or implicitly communicate his opinion – and that means you can interrogate what he says. Incidentally, I would use this opportunity to make a suggestion to Mikhail as well: just because you frame your comment in a way that is meant to make a mockery of what someone else has written doesn’t mean that you (a) have the right of that other person’s position or (b) that you haven’t written just a little bit of bollocks yourself.
Leigh, just for the record: I am by no means utterly convinced that you are a racist of the most virulent, unreconstructed species, like, say, “Madame” Zille. In fact, to the extent you are a bigot at all — which I very much doubt – you would be more of the genteel variety. (Think Harold MacMillan, Harry Truman, Cecil John Rhodes, or Dennis du Plessis.)
Leigh says:
March 14, 2010 at 13:43 pm
Ohhh – did I imply all that, maybe I forgot the full stop. Dang!
It was unintended.
Dworky is just a silly racist.
But I will miss him when he’s dead, in the meantime he’s all the fun I have, please don’t take it away.
[...] here to see the original: On hate speech and a phone call from prison – Constitutionally … Posted in Hitler Without A Mustache Tags: genius-at-manipulating, homoerotic, malema, media, [...]
I have just heard Gwede Mantashe’s defending Malema. It seems that it does not matter how outrageous Malema’s behaviour might be, the ANC will never condemn it (his behaviour).
If the song his part of the ANC’s history why is it still relevant now? And if mbhunu refers to the apartheid and not to white people, why still sing a song about killing “apartheid” when it has already been defeated?
Prof: I find it hard to believe you are not angry, even if in a civilized legal manner. I have no worry in accepting that I am angry. Such a waste what is transpiring these days in South Africa, such a waste. Who cannot be angry?
Sipho Ngcobo on Money Web defended and supported Winnie’s unworthy criticisms of Madiba.
Since Money Web won’t accept my post, then I post it herewith as follows:
“Who recalls that Madiba divorced Winnie because she was a liar (and then he subsequently found a true women concerned for the people). After he was released there was tension about between them about Winnie’s affairs while he was incarcerated. Who can go 27 years without sexual intimacy, she asked. Well, he did. But it wasn’t just the affairs and unethical behavior. The breaking point for Madiba was that he realized she lied repeatedly about everything.
Don’t tell me she’s the mother of the nation, more likely SA’s curse.
Know a bird by its feathered friends. And once a liar, always a liar. Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Your article (I said to Ngcobo who supported her comments in the now infamous interview) this time disgusts me. No one is to blame for the poverty today but those who have ruled for the past one and a half decades. When the shoe fits, wear it.
Sirjay
Robben Island, in certain ways, was like any other all-male prison.
It’s rather naive to think Mandela went 27 years without sexual intimacy.
Just watch the way he walks.
Shakira, with respect, it makes no sense to claim that the lyrics promote “hate” against farmers/white/boere. As I have pointed out before, blacks are incapable of racism. (That is because racism is a structured system of power relations.)
Also, as Cmd Mantashe points out, whites, in their oversensitivity, should not deny our history. Finally, context is everything.
God bless you.
shakira says:
March 14, 2010 at 18:31 pm
“And if mbhunu refers to the apartheid and not to white people, why still sing a song about killing “apartheid” when it has already been defeated?”
It’s a deflection and succeeded very well.
There’s the song, the attack on Zille and on de Lille.
All’s quiet now on the “tenders” with the media and political focus on the attention grabbing sideshows.
The lines between robust debate and vulgarity has become very blurred notwithstanding the ANCs NEC’s pronouncements over the weekend.
Whether President Zuma’s silence/absence in matters that are profoundly damaging is brave or cowardly is unclear – time will tell!
Why is everyone making such a noise about this song anyway. More appropriately, why now.
Recently Debra Patta (from eTV) interviewed Malema and on that clip, the song is being sung but no one made any noise about it. I guess at that time it was not opportune to try and score some points and/or discredit Malema.
In any event, the portion of the song that’s been translated is only a small portion of the song, the main thrust of the song is about “shooting the cowards” (dubul’amagwala).
We SA do not learn, especially our agenda-driven media, the more we try to discredit an individual, the more that individual gets more support. JZ is the prime example, and look where we are now!!
In which civilized countries do party leaders sing songs like these on public platforms?
So, Mzo’s alibi fails the giggle test at first glance.
As to the question ‘Why now?’
Perhaps it has something to do with-the dumbed-down ANC being so obvious about seeking a scapegoat for its multitude of failures as government – coinciding with the renewed racial mobilisation?
ROTFLMAO at the ANC. What a bunch of dumbasses!
Molon Labe!
http://www.citypress.co.za/Content/Politics/News/2259/f8bb89e2086c4103ad56523936fba15f/14-03-2010-02-00/Zuma_fiddles_as_SA_townships_burn
http://www.citypress.co.za/Content/SouthAfrica/News/2168/c46254e973034659aed7fd0bafabe869/21-02-2010-01-00/Malemas_R140m_tender_riches
“In the Free State, municipal services ground to a halt in Qwa Qwa and Bothaville.”
From the City Press report.
A quick reminder: Bothaville. The Judges of the Constitutional Court slapping down the racists on the Free State Bench for daring to hold councillors personally liable for the legal expenses flowing from their anti-constitutional conduct….
Zac Yacoob? Remember Swartbooi? I would say that is where you and your Court struck governance in the New South Africa a mortal blow, wouldn’t you?
In the face of the racial divisions being created by a more and more “black” ANC (as apose to a racial tollerant open society party), I need to ask: Is the hope and a future for White South Africans who love SA and wants to be here and make a contribution.
Or is SA just simply going the African route of total destruction?
Are there still people of colour who welcome whites as true South Africans or is the “revolution” in the process of escalation to blatantly marginalise whites under the slogan “Africa for Africans”
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/tinyikosammaluleke/2009/12/17/our-much-loved-malema-dillema/
pete says:
March 15, 2010 at 11:03 am
“Or is SA just simply going the African route of total destruction?”
It is in our favour that South Africa was the last African country to be liberated. It gives the ANC the opportunity to learn from and not repeat the mistakes of previous liberation movements turned governments.The ANC will therefore not alienate white people as it realises the important role that white people play in the South African economy
I also get the sense that the ANC is finally starting to feel the pressure to deliver on the promises that it has made and it realises that it simply has to improve service delivery or risk losing support at the polls.
But the thing that concerns me the most is that the ANC has left things too late – they have wasted almost 16 years. The problems at the moment seem insurmountable. Hellen Zille complained that JZ did not touch on the problems in the criminal justice system in his SONA. The problem is, there are too many problems in today’s South Africa to fix. In nearly each and every government department (don’t even talk about the municipalities where in some cases service delivery has totally ceased) there are huge service delivery problems. The former DG of Home Affairs was quoted as saying trying to fix his department’s problems was liking climbing a greasy pole.
Mzo
Personally I would not think the sonbg such a big deal IF it was sung by a true struggle hero i.e somebody who was actually tortured and detained by the police and fought and made sacrifices.
But Malema !
He was singing at UJ where most students started Grade1 in 1996 under Nelson Mandela ! So where is the connection for them ?
It’s clear that he is trying to sow racial hatred.
pete says:
March 15, 2010 at 11:03 am
In the face of the racial divisions being created by a more and more “black” ANC (as apose to a racial tollerant open society party), I need to ask: Is the hope and a future for White South Africans who love SA and wants to be here and make a contribution.
Or is SA just simply going the African route of total destruction?
Are there still people of colour who welcome whites as true South Africans or is the “revolution” in the process of escalation to blatantly marginalise whites under the slogan “Africa for Africans”
______________________________________________________________
It’s a tricky answer Pete. Firstly there are very few “blacks” that have a problem with the white population in essence. The problem is the lack of this population to reconcile expecting the other side to be the only one able to offer the hand of reconciliation. Racial tolerance means not attacking our culture in the pretence that you are trying show us that or cultures are out of date. Ukoluka (circumcision), ilobola, ukuhlola (virginity test), ukuXhela (slaughtering) etc. It seems we must always justify our culture to the white population. Can’t people just understand that we differ and our cultural practices are not the same.
Secondly why would an artist sing about the Boer war and its generals so long after the event? Strange isn’t that most black people feel the song is just an expression that the Afrikaners feel they are fighting another Boer war with the new (Black) administration. When there are movies about the struggle the same white people who support this song are up in arms about blacks not wanting to let go of the past.
Thirdly, it seems that you fall in the white group that feels that blacks cannot do anything on their own and need white help to achieve anything. This is very patronising. Instead of saying people must work together for the good of the nation, you go on about “SA going the African route of total destruction.” Do you hear black people talking about the former Eastern Europe as an example of the evil and destruction of some of these white countries?
John Roberts says: March 15, 2010 at 11:56 am
It might very well be that he’s doing exactly what you accuse him of doing and it might very well be that he is diverting the attention away from the other so-called scandals being reported about him. Either way, it’s clear to me that he has an agenda, and some would say rightfully so – he is a politician afterall.
What I cannto understand is our media having a clear agenda as opposed to reporting on the news. That for me is the biggest issue. The media should REPORT on these shenanigans but should not seek to sway our opinion when they do their reporting. I do not believe that the constitutionally guaranteed freedom of expression would be adversely affected if our media lost these clear agendas they have and simply kept to the task of feeding us information.
Thomas says: March 15, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Well said!!
“The uttered words constitute harassment as contemplated in the Equality Act.” Collis ordered Malema to make an unconditional public apology within two weeks and pay R50,000 to a centre for abused women within one month.
Collis concluded her judgment with a word of wisdom to Malema.
“Mr Malema, being a man of vast political influence, be wary of turning into a man that often speaks but never talks.” The Sonke Gender Justice group’s Mbuyiselo Botha extended a hand of friendship to Malema outside court after the judgment.
??
Thomas – this might be slightly off topic: I have no problem with lobola, circumcision and slaughtering. But virginity testing?
Brett Nortje says:
March 15, 2010 at 10:50 am
“The Judges of the Constitutional Court slapping down the racists on the Free State Bench for daring to hold councillors personally liable for the legal expenses flowing from their anti-constitutional conduct….”
Hey Brett – what would you suggest?
Maggs, legislation making elected officials personally liable for gross mismanagement, corruption and intentional violations of the Constitution, and I am not talking costs here.
Not extending their privilege.
http://www.dieburger.com/Content/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/1708/2f251a9b6aed4018a7ea1d8400606d86/12-03-2010-11-57/Minister_dreig_wit_wanbetalers_met_hof
I particularly enjoyed this quote:
“Die veiligheidsmagte kan enigiets doen. Dis ongewapende protesteerders. Dis maklik. Niemand gaan 2010 ontwrig nie.”
What a cretin!
Brett Nortje says:
March 15, 2010 at 22:11 pm
“Maggs, legislation making elected officials personally liable for gross mismanagement, corruption and intentional violations of the Constitution, and I am not talking costs here.
“Not extending their privilege.”
Are you suggesting that the CC should be doing all that?
Yes, Maggs, I am sure it is the ConCourt’s duty to make legislation under the doctrine of separation of powers.
Brett Nortje says:
March 15, 2010 at 22:20 pm
“Yes, Maggs, I am sure it is the ConCourt’s duty to make legislation under the doctrine of separation of powers.”
That’s enlightening.
I was under the impression that it was parliament’s “duty to make legislation under the doctrine of separation of powers”.
Hey, you’ve read a book! Well done.
You started your WMD yet?
Brett Nortje says:
March 15, 2010 at 22:24 pm
“Hey, you’ve read a book! Well done.”
The wrong book it seems.
So remind me – what was your issue with the CC.
p.s. my cooking is improving. I now know where the “on” switch for the stove.
Nice, Prof De Vos! Being an ANC sympathiser is always useful, one way or another. Don’t forget to reward yourself with a fat BMW when you get to the top…