Caster Semenya (pictured) won a gold medal for South Africa in the 800 meters at the world athletic championships amid a storm about her “gender” or “sexual orientation”. Newspapers report that the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) ordered a “gender verification test” for Semenya a few weeks ago.
The ANC called on South Africans to “rally behind our golden girl and shrug off negative and unwarranted questions about her gender”, said ANC spokesperson Brian Sokutu in a statement on Thursday. “This smacks of racism of the highest order. It represents a mentality of conforming feminine outlook within the white race,” the Young Communist League said in a statement on Thursday. “The [Venus and Serena] Williams sisters were never subjected to such public humiliation as is done by the international athletic body. Is it because they are of American descent?” read the statement.
Of course, most of us will rejoice about this triumphant victory for the young women from my home province of Limpopo. Personally I am also glad that individuals and organisations who have been conspicuously and criminally silent on the murders of other women who did not conform to feminine gender stereotypes have suddenly decided to give support to Semenya. Better late than never. I cannot wait to go on a march and toyi-toyi alongside masses and masses of ANC, COSATU and Young Communits League leaders the next time we protest against the homophobia amd gender-prejudice so embedded in our society and our Police Force.
Maybe this is a “teaching moment” that will educate many of the bigots in our society about the need to respect individuals who do not conform to gender stereotypes – whether those individuals are men who are thought of as effeminate or women who are thought of as masculine or challenge these stereotypes in other ways.
The media reports are, however, tinged with sensationalism, prurience and conceptual confusion. Journalists do not seem to understand the difference between “sex”, “gender” and “sexual orientation”, conflating all three in reports on Semenya.
“Sex” is of course generally thought to refer to the biological characteristics of an individual – whether one is biologically a man, a woman or intersex. For example, if someone has a penis he will usually be categorized as a man and this will refer to his sex. “Gender”, on the other hand, is generally thought to refer to characteristic behaviour usually associated with a person’s sex. People who, biologically speaking, may be classified as women, say, are generally expected by our society to “behave and look like women” (whatever that might mean). “Sexual orientation” again generally refers to whether someone is emotionally and sexually attracted to members of their own sex or members of the opposite sex.
These chategories themselves are open to question as not everyone neatly fit into them.
Of course Semenya does not outwardly display the gender characteristics that our bigoted society usually associates with women. But that is decidedly NOT the point here, as Semenya could not possibly be disqualified from competing as a woman merely because she does not display the gender characteristics traditionally associated with women.
There could only possibly ever be an issue if Semenya’s “sex” (and NOT her gender) was in question. Yet the media talks about her gender being in question, which is just daft. The Star also – completely wrongly – spoke about her sexual orientation – which should also be utterly irrelevant when deciding whether she could compete in a women’s event or not.
In any case, I hope our new star will make people sit up and reflect about their own prejudices around sex, gender and sexual orientation and their assumptions about sex and gender. These chategories are far more fluid and do not always neatly conform to what our culture, society and science tells us they should. Maybe Semenya will help South Africans to confront some of these prejudices in a way that Brenda Fassie never managed to do.
I think this is very insightful–thanks for the comments.
Thank you for providing such a clear commentary on the whole affair and in particular for spelling the differences between sex, gender and orientation.
Thabo’s legacy thrives.
He was notoriously thinned skinned and pulled out the race card and anti West card at every opportunity. The ANC and its fellow travellers have demonstrated again, with their comments, that they have nothing intelligent to say. If I headed any of those organisations I would be extremely embarassed by such ill informed and biased comments.
Brian Sokutu (apparently) stated, “This smacks of racism of the highest order. It represents a mentality of conforming feminine outlook within the white race.” Does he not know of all the investigations against East European women athletes. And irrespective of whether he does or doesn’t, he is presuming a racist aggenda without a shred of evidence.
The Young Communist League said in a statement on Thursday. “The [Venus and Serena] Williams sisters were never subjected to such public humiliation as is done by the international athletic body. Is it because they are of American descent?”
Well I would never presume to assume that the William sisters were anything other than 100% female unless there are some amazing breast prostheses out there. Unfortunately, Semenya, except for the absence of a genital bulge, looks outwardly 100% male in every photo that I’ve seen.
Not since SAARTJIE BAARTMAN has a black woman been so publicly humiliated and violated. Couldn’t our so-called First World and Colonial masters in the IAAF have treated this whole thing with some sensitivity and dignity?
Afterall, one expects the West to be refined. This scandal will haunt the so-called International sporting body. Have these people ever heard of individual’s dignity and bodily intergrity? Let’s not bit about the bush, this is classic RACISM, period. The implicated individuals should be shunned and ostracised. They are incurably RACIST.
We just love hijacking issues to discuss our own fragile egos. I suspect that gender testing is definitely humiliating and probably all kinds of –isms. However, she is participating in a competition where gender or sex separation (I suspect that this is not clear either) is a predetermined fact and if there is any doubt it seems that the other competitors have a right to question that point.
If a man is raised as a woman, would he be allowed to compete in female events? What if he undergoes a sex change operation? Is it not sexist to split the events into gender/sex categories altogether? Is it that women do not have physical ability and makeup to compete against men? There are millions of men that do have the physical ability and makeup to compete against the top male athletes and they are not even afforded the opportunity to compete against the women. Is that not some kind of –ism? Where must the line be drawn, genetics, mindset, physical appearance, physical ability?
Is this really about bigotry or is it about a competition with chosen boundaries that exceedingly difficult to defined. Maybe this is all that our small minds can fathom? This could very well be at the core of all our problems.
In a good article written by Robert Richie, John Reynard and Tom Lewis about “Intersex and the Olympic Games” this last paragraph stands out:
“Sport has struggled with the issue of gender
anomalies for years and the controversy regarding
how to ‘test’ for DSD remains. Chromosomes can
be tested but sex is not so easily determined – our
upbringing and society’s attitude towards us plays
a crucial role in defining sex. For those female
athletes with DSD, it seems far more likely that
they are doing their best to compete as the sex
chosen for them at birth rather than attempting to
attain unfair advantage through masquerading
their gender. As such, compulsory gender verification
seems unfair, humiliating and unproductive
in the majority of situations, although vigilance
must remain to identify those whose aim is to win
no matter what the cost.”
I am utterly appalled at the way the IAAF is handeling the matter. This should have been such a proud moment for our country – but now this?
I am so proud of this woman and about what she has achieved and I am so sad that she is going to be subjected to this. It certainly reminds me of the humiliation that Saartjie Baartman must have endured.
What I do not understand is who raised this issue in the first place? Was there a complaint by any of her competitors or on what is the decision by the IAAF based? From the reports I have read it appears that it is based on the recent improvements in her performance. But surely this could and should not be the only grounds upon which any person maybe subjected to this? I would say for someone to be subjected to such a humiliating process there must at least be something more than just her improved performances that triggered it.
As far as her appearance is concerned I have seen many women competing in athletics over the years whose outward appearance looked even less feminine than Caster’s, yet they have never been subjected to this.
I hate mixing threads, but it would be remiss of me if I did not point out that the RACISM faced by our Girl in Berlin would be quite familiar to a certain Cape Town judge who, likewise, has had his “credentials” challenged by racists, liberals and other right-wingers who are completely opposed to transformatation.
Is this “credentials” that are being challenged gender specific?
No, Harold. You know very well that neither the JP’s gender nor his sexual credentials have featured in the racist attacks upon him.*
* But cf. Said, E, ‘Orientalism’ (1998) (noting the labelling in imperialist/colonialist discourse of the dark “Other” as feminine.)
I agree with Charles and there is nothing wrong in determining a person’s sex. Surely the vociferous action group voices should be defending the rights of all women to compete on an equal footing.
Mikhail, you can say that again, and I am amazed by the silence over the M & G admission that they have no notes nor was Justice Hlophe ever recorded saying racists things, yet they quoted him verbatim from a dubious journalists memory transcriptions of his conversation with Hlophe.
Mzo, I still vividly remember you warnings to the Prof about journalistic blue lies we have lately routenly been subjected to and you were ridiculed over your words of caution, you even reminded us of “the generally corrupt relationship” saga which Squires J had to correct after even the newspaper-reading SCA GOT IT WRONG! I think the Prof ought to be big enough and accede Mzo was right!
Could anyone explain to me how racism got thrown into the mix here please?! It’s inappropriate. Many South Africans’ obsession with racism often blinds them for the facts at hand and consequently undermines their contribution to the actual debate. Yes, the IAAF’s handling of the matter is more than questionable in the context of publicly humiliating Semenya [Thank you Prof for your post Aug 21, 2009 at 9:11 am: "…As such, compulsory gender verification seems unfair, humiliating and unproductive
in the majority of situations…"] . But does the IAAF’s decision, that Semenya’s accomplishment will stand irrespective of the test result, originate from racist guilt? I think not. Please take the facts for what they are, and let’s go from there. Insinuating racism is a bit far fetched this time. And thank you Blaine McCleland for pointing out that there are investigations against East European women athletes, of whom I doubt all to be black. The IAAF’s racist agenda can’t be proven by throwing around irrelevant allegations. Again, CONGRATULATIONS CASTER SEMENYA! You’ve done South Africa[ns] proud! As for the IAAF, you should be ashamed of yourselves for not handling a sensitive situation with more tact.
By the way, now that the IAAF stated that the test results won’t have any implication on Semenya participating [with/against females], why do the test at all? And, what will be the future determining factor in situations like these: chromosome composition, hormonal [pre]dominance, genital features [prima facie evidence, if I may]..?
Understood. I do however think that in both cases they just trying to dwell deeper and determine whether the “surface ambiguity” is in fact false.
Due to Hansie and his serial cheating, and those two Brothers (busted by watches on different wrists), the international sporting community tends to be hawkish in their dealings with our sporting personalities.
Ha ha! Who is it that keeps saying Pierre can’t let a blog go by without dragging Hlophe’s name into it? Well, here we are, with Pierre having safely navigated the rocky shores of Hlophephobia and nary a mention of the man.
And what happens? One of his readers can’t resist the temptation! Not even 10 comments in and up his name pops.
Linda, my immediate thought was also of Saartjie Baartman when I read this story.
Good post, Prof. Let’s hope that Semenya is tougher than Zola Budd.
@ Student. Thank you for placing some perspective on this unfortunate affair. The Press sisters (one was named Tamara) from the Soviet union were subjected to the same scrutiny over a number of years in the early sixties and disappeared from international competition more or less without trace.
@Student
who is actually at fault here IAAF or ASA?
Think about it? IAAF is forced to do a test to find out the sex of Semenya. Which is actually unnecessary becuase Semenya’s manager and ASA should of done there work properly in preparing her for the event.
Is it not strange that as we all know by now that Semenya has had a problem with this very issue in her up bringing that the ASA would have had this all confirmed by medical tests and god knows what else that needs to be tested to prove someones sex before sending her to Berlin?
So when the question came up, they could of easly of said here you go has the medical report. thank you very much. Instead you got the ASA saying well fuck ok well um….lets just drop her pants to prove it? wtf?
So dont you think the ASA is actually to blame for throwing her into that situation? and actually embarressing her and the country? esp if it finds out it is a male, then who ever one silver and bronze and 4th place moves up to the respected places causing more frustrations and really a pain in the ass and South africa is left feeling abit red faced.
That am afriad is ASA fault for creating this situation, Berlin didnt great this situation. South Africa and the ASA did by selecting someone who the ASA hasnt confirmed with “FACTS” that she is indeed a woman.
Then you guys cry racism? um I do see other black females running in the event.
really unbelievable
True, the ASA should have known and been aware of the potential shortfalls which could plague her presence in the international sporting arena.
India’s Santhi Soundarajan was a highly publicized scandal which all sporting administrations should of taken heed of and learn from.
It seems to me that this whole affair is an issue of trust. (Not of race, and not of sex.) The IAAF have an event for women, and they need to be sure that women are competing in it, and not men that look like women.
Most of the time, assessing sex is a routine and automatic part of our cognitive facilities. Some few (like Semenya) have androgynous features.
In the interests of maintaining the boundaries of the event, as Charles Scheepers // Aug 21, 2009 at 6:28 am points out, it behooves the IAAF to find out whether Semenya’s eligible to compete. In the Williams sisters case, for instance, it’s obvious that they’re female.
Sucks to be her, for sure, to be dragged through this.
But you know, if I was her, I’d be really angry at the YCL’s and ANC’s attempts to hijack her personal affairs for their own agenda.
The real gem is “It represents a mentality of conforming feminine outlook within the white race” as contrasted against Pierre’s recent blog about the violence against black lesbians: it’s unacceptable for some IAAF guy to demand evidence of Semenya’s eligibility to take part in the sporting event, but it’s perfectly OK to rape black lesbians because they don’t conform to the cultural sexual norms?
Chris McDaniel // Aug 21, 2009 at 1:15 pm
@Student
“who is actually at fault here IAAF or ASA?”
IAAF, certainly not because of the fact that they followed procedure [they are entitled to subject athletes to tests], however, one feels that the same end could have been met if the affair had been handled in camera to a larger extent.
ASA, most definitely. Molatelo Malehopo [executive manager ASA] is reported to have said that there was no reason to have doubted Semenya’s sex because nobody had ever complain about this before. According to Dr Ross Tucker, ASA has been informed[ thus had known] of complaints/uncertainties regarding Semenya for some time now. ASA shoud have done better, and by doing so, they could have avoided this spectacle by simply providing IAAF with test results conducted prior to Berlin.
so, Chris, indeed, “ASA is actually to blame for throwing her into that situation”. Although done without much needed tact esp in situations like these, the IAAF tests are completely justifiable.
“Then you guys cry racism?” [Chris McDaniel // Aug 21, 2009 at 1:15 pm]. I’m not sure whether this is directed to me, as my previous post argues that racism has got nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Surely, one of the main issues presented here is that categories like sex, gender (and race) are rather fluid. On what basis does the AAF decide that a person is a man or a woman? Some people do not neatly fit into such constructed categories and depending on how one defines the category will often determine whether one is “officially” designated a man or a woman. For many people across the world, though, such categories do not accurately describe who they are.
I don’t agree with your definitions. Sex is a physical act we use for pleasure and procreation. Gender (male or female), describes (among other things) what equipment we would typically have to use for sex.
I don’t think the IAAF gives a damn whether she/he is either any other sphere of society, but it does concern them when it involves participants in a highly competitive and consistently scrutinized sport, that being athletics.
My personal feeling is what will Mr Bolt be able to achieve if he was allowed to use performance enhancers? Imagine, 100m under 9 secs????
When will this misguided racist comments stop. Its becoming a global excuse for black people when challenged… its lame.
Personally I thought Caster Semenya looked manly, more manly than most male European football stars anyway. Then I heard her speak and thought that maybe the IAAF has a point, someone that looks manly and sounds manly (and no, my sense of hearing is not based on the ‘feminine sound within the white race’).
I think ASA is at fault for not clearing the suspicion before the event; I also think that IAAF is wrong in the way that this matter is handled.
LOL, … starting to sound like a south african rendition of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” !
‘Semenya defies societal expectations’ http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1053437
Semenya: dis glo SA-rassiste se skuld
http://www.nuus24.com/Content/Sport/AnderSport/1550/c11b9bca77a14dd4aa0f2e63dac4941b/21-08-2009%2002-08/Semenya_dis_glo_SA-rassiste_se_skuld
Pierre, saying that certain people don’t fit neatly into the official categories doesn’t take the argument very far at all. Athletics federations must either allow all persons to compete against one another in unisex events, or try and devise broadly accurate category distinctions. It would be taking political correctness to absurd extremes if one were to advocate the former, so I don’t see why the federations should be cast as villains simply because they try as best they can to distinguish the sexes. I also think it is absurdly politically correct to say that the controversy over Semenya’s gender is based on gender ‘prejudices’; is it really bigoted to acknowledge that there are certain characteristics which typify the average member of the respective sexes? Of course the situation is humiliating for Semenya, but as a law expert you will be aware that certain people are unfortunately but unavoidably harmed by any law or policy which attempts to create broad distinctions between categories of persons. And your analysis does not seem to acknowledge that ASA (rather than the IAAF) is to blame here, because they made no attempt to settle this matter in advance of the competition, in spite of the fact that by their own admission Semenya’s sex has been an issue for many years.
mili // Aug 21, 2009 at 3:10 pm
my thoughts exactly
Sipho // Aug 21, 2009 at 3:21 pm
well said Sipho
“they made no attempt to settle this matter in advance of the competition, in spite of the fact that by their own admission Semenya’s sex has been an issue for many years.”
… and deny the potential opportunity of winning gold medals?
Isn’t this more an issue about whether she produces a more than usual amount of testosterone for some reason, and which would then also give her an unfair advantage over her other female competitors, as it is a well-known fact that males develop more muscular strength than do women because of their testosterone production. What needs to be established therefore is whether and indeed why, she may have excess testosterone in her body, and whether this extraordinary level – enough to give her a strong masculine voice, a thick mustache and a very muscular, male-looking body — had been caused deliberately or not.
Whether this was due to a medical anomaly in her body or not – perhaps the international sporting organisations should create a third competing level besides those for males and females, because it’s well-known in medical literature that there are medical conditions which cause excess testosterone production in females.
Adriana, If what you say is correct, and the finding is that she did not deliberately caused excessive testosterone production, who you allow her to compete?
“the international sporting organisations should create a third competing level besides those for males and females”
I suggest a fourth as well where those who wish to use performance enhancers can compete against each other (something like WWE).
Adriana Stuijt
‘..well-known in medical literature that there are medical conditions which cause excess testosterone production in females…’
That may be, however, you cant fake the Y chromosome (which makes a man a man). A lady with excess testosterone should flaunt it and use it in competitions; having more (natural) hormones which helps one perform better is NOT illegal. In fact, the medical anomalies you refer to is what makes the better athlete.
I do appreciate your suggestion of a third category though – drug category – just to see what is humanly possible. It’ll do to athletics what 20/20 did to cricket
student // Aug 21, 2009 at 2:24 pm
firstly how did the IAAF mis handle the situation?
secondly no the racism wasnt directed at you.
Sipho, if one assumes for the moment (as I do) that it is fair to have different categories for taking part in sporting events, the point I am making is that these categories are far from self-evident because human sexuality is far more fluid than our invented categories acknowledge. We create sex and gender norms, but depending how we decide to “fit” people into these norms, we will come up with different answers to the question whether it is fair to “fit” someone into this or that category. More broadly, such categories help to create and perpetuate bigotry because we decide who is “normal” and who not and then often discriminate and vilify those who do not fit the norm. The sex/gender system thus helps to create and perpetuate bigotry. If we accept, though, that the categories themselves are fluid and that there is no such thing as “normal” sex, gender or sexual orientation categories we undermine the very system on which the bigotry and prejudice thrives. Once we accept the fluidity of sex and gender, we realise that it is impossible to say this or that person is normal and if everyone is normal then it is more difficult to “other” those we do not like, to hate them, assault them and kill them. For practical reasons, we probably have to draw boundaries but we should accept that these boundaries will always, to some extent, be arbitrary. There is no one right answer.
I’m really upset that only blacks are allowed to run the 100m…
This is indeed a teaching moment. And what better teacher than peerless Pierre.
they feel the same about ice hockey
Chris McDaniel // Aug 21, 2009 at 3:57 pm
student // Aug 21, 2009 at 2:24 pm
“firstly how did the IAAF mis handle the situation?”
Again, they’re not at fault for handling the situation. However, I believe that this matter could have been handled more privately by the IAAF, and could have been avoided even by the ASA. Admittedly, there’s no obligation on the IAAF to conduct its business in camera, but I for one felt that they could have been more sensitive/considerate in their approach to the matter. Whether this results in “mis-handling” of the situation, I’m not sure. But surely it could have been handled in another way, to reach the desired ends without having to humiliate.
“secondly no the racism wasnt directed at you.”
thank you for the clarification
Pierre, thanks for your clarification; if your article was merely meant to remind us that gender/sex categories are not as clear-cut or rigid as we often think, and was not meant to imply that the IAAF are bigoted, prejudiced or otherwise unfair, then I completely agree with you.
NY Times:
““We can get quite philosophical here — what does it mean to be male or female?” said Dr. Richard Auchus, a specialist in disorders of sexual differentiation at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas.
“For 99 percent of the population it’s easy to determine,” he added. “But one percent of the population have conditions that make it not so straightforward.”
Some of Semenya’s competitors in the 800 meters considered the issue straightforward after Semenya romped to a commanding victory at the world championships Wednesday. “Just look at her,” said Mariya Savinova of Russia, who finished fifth. Elisa Cusma of Italy, who was sixth, told Italian journalists: “These kind of people should not run with us. For me, she’s not a woman. She’s a man.”
But the matter is anything but simple. The testing done on Semenya, at the behest of the International Association of Athletics Federations, track and field’s world governing body, takes weeks to complete. It requires a physical medical evaluation, and includes reports from a gynecologist, an endocrinologist, a psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender. The effort, coordinated by Dr. Harold Adams, a South African on the I.A.A.F. medical panel, is being conducted at hospitals in Berlin and South Africa.
It is unclear what the exact threshold is, in the eyes of the I.A.A.F., for a female athlete being ineligible to compete as a woman.”
and
“Complicated cases are common. For example, a disorder known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia gives women excess testosterone from a source other than the testes — the adrenal glands. In mild cases, genitals may appear normal and often no one suspects the problem. Women with the disorder are allowed to compete as females.
The Bantu, a group of indigenous South African people, often are hermaphrodites but they do not always have obvious male genitalia, said Dr. Maria New, an endocrinologist at Mount Sinai School of Medicine. They are genetically female yet have both testes and ovaries.
To spot the condition, doctors sometimes must do a laparoscopic exam, remove tissue from the gonads, and biopsy it, New said.
Then there is a list of rare genetic disorders that can confuse sexual identity. Some genetic males, for example, have mutations in a gene needed to form testes. Although they look like women, genetically they are men, with an X chromosome and a Y chromosome.
Davies said that the sex testing includes “chromosome testing, gynecological investigation, all manner of things, organ, X-rays, scans.” But, New said, if the tests do not include genetic ones, most of the sex disorders will be missed. Chromosomes can look perfectly normal, she said. It is the genes that are altered.”"
Not sure where racism comes into any of this.
student // Aug 21, 2009 at 4:30 pm
but thats the thing didnt the IAAF tell the ASA privatly to go sort this out i think 3 weeks ago?
Personnaly I think the IAAF is trying to be accommadating, from what I can see they handling he situation as best they can and I think media and the ASA are the losers here.
Mili and student – ‘looking manly in whose’ perspective’? Wouldn’t you agree that the same way as `beautiness lies in the eyes of the beholder’ so is one’s masculine and / or femine looks?
Would you be surprised to hear that the woman / man you call your beautiful wife / handsome husband does not even feature in top hundred of another man’s / woman’s list of beautiful / handsome people?
Prof, you consistently refer to “official categories” – gender, sex and / sexual orientation – in your posts above. Are these the IAAF’s established, documented (policy) and consistently applied categories or you refer to generally the way in which the general public stereotypically define and perceive these concepts? If the former is correct, have they been universally canvassed and accepted in order for them to be successfully applied universally? And could anyone familiar with these (IAAF’s policies) say they the IAAF in this case is acting according to these definitions? Personally I doubt if they have such a comprehensive policy that guides them to judge athletes by their physical body appearance for compliance with these categories against such athletes’ racial and gender / sexual orientation. I actually agree with you Prof jthat these categories are fluid in nature and application and differes from one person to another – just need to understand the “official” part of it.
I have not really established exactly what the basis of their claim is. I always understood the jet-like speed at which she claimed the gold medal against the other female competitors as their prima facie, in which case it begs the question whether (a) had Semenya got the middle or last position they (the IAAF) would still have complained and (b) (bringing in some racism now to McCleland’s dislike) had Semenya been a Van Tonder and achieved a gold medal position, the same complaint could have arised? If the IAAF’s claim is based on Semenya’s looks, then they are completely wrong and unprofessional.
Mdu, it is not always the case that you need a tape recorder in order to quote someone verbatim. I do not doubt that you share this view. But I doubt if you will ever agree that your blind support for (Zuma and) Hlophe does, as it had in the past, compromises your thought process and intelligence.
The rumour about Caster having been born hermaphrodite is gaining credence. And the fact that the IAAF needs more than an observation of genitalia as proof of sex or gender, should give us reasons to worry.
If she was born hermaphrodite, as the reports in the news suggest – though in not so many words – then it is possible that Caster could have both X and Y chromosomes which could for all intense and purposes place her in the same category as those who have performed sex-change operations.
So before we shout racism and organize protests outside some embassies, why don’t we wait for official test results and a decision on this matter?
As for me, I am now ambivalent about her true womanhood.
Racism aside, there are good reasons for doubt. I just hope, wish and pray the tests come back in her favour. This will do a lot for her ego and self-esteem – and a lot more for us proud South Africans.
“…for all intense and purposes …”
should read
“…for all intents and purposes …”
As a non-racial and asexual nation, we must demand that international sports desist from having separate so-called “male” and “female” events.
Speaking for myself, I would propose that henceforth there should be only two categories recognised in sporting competitions.
Class A: Those who believe that sex and gender are social constructs.
Class B: Those who believe otherwise
Chris McDaniel // Aug 21, 2009 at 4:56 pm
“but thats the thing didnt the IAAF tell the ASA privatly to go sort this out i think 3 weeks ago?”
If this is true, I agree that ASA is the “loser” here.
mayimele // Aug 21, 2009 at 5:03 pm
“Mili and student – ‘looking manly in whose’ perspective’?”
My perspective [for one]: compared to her counterparts, compared to the waitresses at the restaurants I dine, compared to my colleagues, compared to all women I’ve personally met in my life. So, then, yes, this all is in the eye of the beholder, as it were. Does it matter?
I feel bad for her, she can’t help her condition and she probably has been mocked all her life. At least she can be finally do something that she can be proud of.
Prof, I find that you are stretching the imagination now.
I think that “sex” can be stated in an almost scientific nature. It should, therefore, be a category that stands for sporting competitions (and society in general).
Gender involves a more subjective analysis. It is here that we tend to blur the lines. I think that this issue is where the problem arises. We cannot have an objective test. The subjective test then allows prejudice to creep in and we have what we believe to be a “normal” standard for gender roles. Such a test is not sustainable or desirable. I am, however, open to compelling reasons of a more academic nature on this issue.
Lastly, sexual orientation. Should this not be relatively simple? I know that its not and that the labels and boxes do much more harm than good. The topic is sensitive and people tend to term it in a way that they find it acceptable to themselves or society. I do not see how this is relevant for the purposes of sports (except rugby). I simply see it as fodder for gossip.
Why do they even bother to perform those tests if they don’t have clear cut rules and guidelines on hermaphrodites?
A simple “pull your panties down” inspection is all that is needed in my view, if the IAAF does not state categorically that hermaphrodites or sex-change females are not eligible to compete.
Caster did not cheat – this much is clear. How will they disqualify her when they have no clear guidelines on such matters?
PdV wrote:
{{“The [Venus and Serena] Williams sisters were never subjected to such
public humiliation…because they are of American descent?” }}
Doesn’t SA have any leadership or guidance to help them not make
fools of themselves and the whole country ?
PS I get error 501 “not implemented” when posting here ?
@ Alibama: “Doesn’t SA have any leadership or guidance to help them not make fools of themselves and the whole country ?”
The answer is: “No.” And I agree that the question about the Williams sisters is indeed very, very, foolish.
But let me ask you this in return: Did the US not have a. leadership and guidance system to stop it from twice electing a President that made fools of themselves and the whole country?
mAYIMELE, THANK YOU FOR QUOTING ME SELECTIVELY, WHAT ABOUT MAKING NOTES AT LEAST BEFORE QUOTING SOMEONE VERBATIM? AND PIERRE YOUR SILENCE ON THIS TOPIC IS DEAFENING TO SAY THE LEAST BUT AT LEAST COPE IS RESPONDING!
@ Alibama: I agree with Michael on this.
What is really unfortunate [and pathetic, actually] is that the “leadership” [Young Communist League, ANC spokesperson Brian Sokutu, Leonard Chuene president ASA], all blame this situation on racism while they [at least, the ASA] could have avoided the whole thing by simply doing their job. It seems too often that “victims of racism” try to shift the blame to avoid accountability for their conduct [and/or lack thereof]. By always playing the race card they cheapen the grievances of actual victims of racism.
@ Michael: LOL! Respectfully, I’m afraid the finger should be pointed at the people for electing them.
Michael
“Class A: Those who believe that sex and gender are social constructs.
Class B: Those who believe otherwise.”
Wouldn’t it be convenient – for the spectators’ sake – if Class A was then made up entirely of ‘females’ (those, as victims of sexual and gender stereotyping for ever and a day, who might well question such constructs) and
Class B consisted entirely of big, muscular, chest-thumping, testerone-pumped males (a class entirely unlikely even to consider the question)?
Sarah, your suggestion itself smacks of gross stereotyping, Nevertheless, I would eagerly embrace it, for reasons of pure practicality.
Problem being, Sarah, females sometimes [may] appear to be “big, muscular, chest-thumping, testerone-pumped [[fe]]males”. The determinant in this matter is the chromosome composition.
“Wouldn’t it be convenient – for the spectators’ sake”…why would the categories you propose be more convenient [for spectators]…I don’t follow…
Michael, I plead guilty.
Student, my reason is for entertainment. Perhaps ‘convenient’ was the wrong choice of word. I’m not being critical about sportswomen but where would the competition be in a race run between Usain Bolt (9.58) and Florence Griffith Joyner (10.49), for example?
200m men: 19.19; women: 21.34
400m men: 43.18; women: 47.60
In the marathon women are more than ten minutes off the pace.
Long jump: 8..95m vs 7.52m
You get the picture.
These sportswomen are fantastic athletes and very exciting to watch, but in sports that require strength as well as skill they cannot compete with the top men. (Unlike, for instance, golf or snooker)
Sarah – not played much golf then?
In my opinion, we have a child who has been very badly let down by the adults who were supposed to look after her. It is disgraceful. This will probably scar her for life and it has certainly robbed her of a defining personal achievement, no matter what happens going forward. Someone has screwed up very, very badly and has to be held to account for this debacle. I do not think it is the IAAF.
Have a look at this
http://www.health24.com/fitness/Science_of_Sport/16-3901-3902-3909,52182.asp
I think it is very important that Mr Julius Malema be deployed immediately to Berlin. He is well equipped to lead a South African delegation to demand justice. The treatment of our golden girl reveals that International athletics remains dominated by minorities, liberals and imperialists. If Mr Malema is given the opportunity to use his experience in dealing firmly with such people, he will make us proud to be South Africans.
Peter
Ok, rugby then.
I must say I agree. The sooner Mr Malema is sent to Berlin to put our case to the world, the better for Ms Semenya, international athletics, and Africa.
Thank you Anton Kleinschmidt [// Aug 22, 2009 at 10:35 pm] for the link. In my view, the debate pretty much begins and ends with what is said there.
I wonder if the same bohaai would have been there if there was “he” who looked like a “she”. We are just sexist. Period.
This is where the liberal argument becomes racist – everyone must conform to the law, but South Africans/Africans are entitled to flout the law and are not entitled to be policed by the same laws. How many times have we come across this argument.
Did you see Bolt winge over being accused of drug-taking or say that people were being racist towards Jamiacans…? No! Why? Because he’s a grown up and that’s just how it works when you achieve something – you get challenged on the only aspects that the IAAF allows…namely:
Drugs; Gender; Nationality and Possibly age.
Did you hear the Chinese bleating when they were accused at the Olympic games of fielding players who were too young? Did Armstrong cry racism against Americans by the French or the Europeans? No.
When will Africans learn…that if you compete on the world stage you are held to the same laws as everyone else?
When did you hear the ANC claiming that the Eastern European women who competed ages ago who were challenged on their gender were being targeted on a racist/nationalist ticket?
Grow up – there’s big sponsorship money involved and you will be challenged when you win, on the aspects you can be challenged on. Forget transformation and being cut slack internationally – believe it or not, it’s a level playing field there, and it’s your talent according a base set of rules for the game you play which counts.
If you don’t like playing by the laws that everyone else does….it’s simple….don’t participate internationally…stay at home and use a skewed Afirmative Action/transformation benchmark to test yourself against, so you can claim you are good at your chosen sport at supper with your mates.
Don’t sign up to participate internationally on rules you have no intention of being governed by…!
Sorry…but if she’s big enough to go after gold…she’s big enough to play by the rules. Just give them your blood for analysis and respect the outcome…because that’s what everyone else has done, still does and will do…!
Michael Osborne, do you owe Clara a mention in a footnote for your categories?
I have found it so interesting that every single person, other than the quoted competitor (sore loser?), who has claimed that the sex verification test needs to be carried out in order to save women’s sport have been MALE.
We women appear far more open to varying degrees of men and womenness, in the sort of way Pierre is exploring. Even the British bronze medal winner is behind her www [dot] mirror [dot] co [dot] uk/sport/more-sport/2009/08/21/meadows-says-no-to-silver-115875-21612737/
It also seems to me that we are running with assumptions masquerading as fact. The comments about testosterone are misleading as all female competitors have naturally increased testosterone levels due to their training. Also some people with XY Chromosomes develop as a female because their cells do not have the receptor to receive the male instruction. So those women would fail a sex verification test yet their bodies get no benefit from their “maleness.”
I am heartily sick of the dichotomy of strong men and weaker women. We have no idea if maleness or femaleness has a bearing on performance because we are ASSUMING maleness enhances and femaleness detracts, but as no one tests the top male athletes – due to the assumption that if you excel amongst the men, then you couldn’t possible be anything other than all man – we simply don’t know. I know that the strongest person I know is a black Zimbabwean Ndebele woman. She has the strength of Superman!
The IAAF said that they are testing Semenya because her time improved so dramatically. That in itself is racist to my mind, to not appreciate the extreme difference of moving from rural Limpopo to a University and a top class professional coach. What I simply cannot understand though is how her “maleness” could just spontaneously kick in now? Are they suggesting that she only became a man a year ago?
These tests are invasive and unnecessary. The extent to which an actual young woman has been ignored by this voyeuristic speculation is appalling.
WELL DONE CASTER SEMENYA. YOU ARE OUR HEROINE.
Great post Pierre.
Mpho. You are right. So, thank you Clara!
Mpho, food post. Just be careful of not brandishing this “rascism” sword too often.
I was starting to think that the men in Europe are just not manly enough and they felt threatened by Miss Caster Semenya. They should come to SA and see what the real manne look like and they’ll know that she is certainly of the fairer sex…
Mpho // Aug 23, 2009 at 10:36 pm “The IAAF said that they are testing Semenya because her time improved so dramatically. That in itself is racist to my mind, to not appreciate the extreme difference of moving from rural Limpopo to a University and a top class professional coach.”
Mpho, would it have been racist then if:
the ASA performed these test?
the ASA performed these tests under instruction of the IAAF?
Matter of fact, both these organisations are justified to subject athletes to the these procedures, admittedly while they may have an ulterior motive which remains hard[impossible] to prove, not true?
nkululeko // Aug 24, 2009 at 7:40 am
“Just be careful of not brandishing this “rascism” sword too often.”
thank you nkululeko
Mpho, a very thoughtful post – and much appreciated:)
MDU // Aug 22, 2009 at 9:43 am
Mdu, the point still remains – does one always have to have tape recorded or “at least” made “some notes” on someone’s conversation to quote him verbatim?
By the way I like your labeling of me as Cope. It only confirms the view I held all along that you are indeed one of those unfortunate South Africans who regard anyone who identifies faults on zuma and hlophe as anti-revolutionaries, racists and cockroaches.
student // Aug 21, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Student, for me it does matters a lot. As you correctly put it is your perspective, which may justifiable be different from the other 40 or so million people who in their long or short life span have dined and interacted with different men and women from yours based on which experience have developed stereotypical definitions or classifications of what characterizes a man or a woman which may also differ from yours. And it is as a result of these stereotypes that we have today a young girl who is subjected to inhuman treatment because of her physical body appearance that does not fit someone’s perspective of how a woman must or should look like. While it is acceptable for you and I to advance our opinion, all I am saying here is that in the case like this we should not use stereotypical classifications and definitions because instead of that helping to resolve the situation it will further complicate it and in the process disadvantage the girl.
@ Linda (fourth post)
Why do you use the word racism so carelessly? You present no valid argument to back up your comment, just like our well educated government officials have done in this case. Such illiteracy is tantamount to hate speech and should be carefully considered before being made public.
Most people here in Europe are incredibly anti-racist. In Germany in particular they tolerate nothing of the sort, yet here you are calling them all racists that should be shunned and ostracised. What an insult!
The way I see it, Castor Semenya deserves her gold medal. Innocent until proven guilty, but it is only fair on the other female competitors that her sex be verified if necessary. The IAAF did not, to my knowledge, say that they are testing her because she is black. Had they done that, your post may have had some relevance.
There are many cheap blogs out there where you can vent your frustration and call the “racist card” as one so often falsely does in South Africa. If you have nothing of interest to contribute on this respected blog then do us all a favour and stay away!
mayimele // Aug 24, 2009 at 12:04 pm
“…all I am saying here is that in the case like this we should not use stereotypical classifications and definitions…”
I agree Mayimele, and that is why they [the IAAF] are conducting the chromosome composition test [and other medical procedures], and not asking me for my -or anyone else’s for their – PERSPECTIVE. So neither my nor your perspective matter really. See, the IAAF has to ensure that the competition is participated in fairly and consequently they will perform their tests of which the results will determine the outcome. Thus, my perspective [whatever it may be] does not matter. The fact that my perspective may be based on a typical stereotype, has not as necessary consequence discrimination or the intention to humiliate. And if it had, would it have mattered [in the given case] ?
James in Germany // Aug 24, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Although I am in accord with what you say in large part, there is something which I’d like you to elaborate on. [admittedly, this won't contribute to the actual debate, but only to please my own curiosity]
“Most people here in Europe are incredibly anti-racist.”
This is a generalization and dangerous. Wouldn’t you agree that several European countries [including France and Germany] have got an ulterior motive when they argue against the inclusion of Turkey in the EU, this motive [in my view]: Turkey being predominantly Islam? In your experience, can you honestly say that you’ve never noted the least bit of racism towards the Turks [and vice versa] in Germany?
James in Germany, with respect, I am not sure about your assertion that most people in Europe are incredibly anti-racist.
I certainly do not claim to be an authority on the topic of the extent to which racism does the rounds in Europe. But to offer an example which I think has some basis in fact: I think many Muslim people in France think that their faith prejudices them when they seek employment. If so, and if they are justified in drawing that inference, does that not smack of racism?
To offer another example: outside of the UK, it seems the domestic football leagues do not always adopt especially robust stances against racist abuse of football players. I remember one season when Sameul Eto was so upset by the abusive chanting of some supporters that he very nearly walked off the pitch. If it is true to say that the governing body of the Spanish league did not do very much about it, does that not run counter to the view that most people in Europe are incredily anti-racist? I mean if they were, then surely the more prominent bodies in Europe would display anti-racist behaviour?
James in Germany, I should have made the following point a bit clearer: as regards my French example, by racism, I meant that some people are discriminated against due to their Arab heritage.
Leigh, although an interesting and extensive debate in itself, I agree with your assertion:
“as regards my French example, by racism, I meant that some people are discriminated against due to their Arab heritage.”
Too true.
Can I assume that since the discussion has veered off down the don’t mention the “R” word route, that we all accept that:-
1. those men seeking to rush to the defence of those poor slower women (whom we can all safely assume have no male supremeness within them as they didn’t win the race) do not need to be defended by such men,
2. that we have no proof that any “maleness” in our World Champion would have enhanced her performance and
3. we all heartily condemn these sex verificiation tests and want her amazing success to be recognised as such?
Because the one thing I do believe is, if we show how supportive every section of South African society is, the situation will become a success story for racial harmony.
Mpho // Aug 24, 2009 at 6:18 pm
“3. we all heartily condemn these sex verification tests and want her amazing success to be recognized as such?”
Thank you Mpho for trying to tie up loose ends, but respectfully, I can’t believe that you have read the other contributions on this topic if you think that your point 3[quoted above] is something “that we all accept”.
Yes I “want her amazing success to be recognized as such”. Yet, I do not “condemn these sex verification tests”.
I agree that racism remains a serious problem in Germany, as well as in France and Liechenstein.
That is why I have demanded that Mr Malema be deployed at the earliest opportunity as our representative to the IAAF.
I have nothing against the gender or sex tests per se. My problem comes when those tests reveal that a person is not a woman even if she has a vagina only. What recourse does that kind of a person have? She can’t compete as a woman, and can’t compete as a man either. Isn’t this some kind of discrimination?
student // Aug 24, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Explain to me what precisely the correct test result is to be, if IAAF’s own Rules say that a post-op sex-changed male to female can compete as a woman two years after he surgically became a she?
I’m completely intrigued by the level of unnecessary speculation (given the IAAF’s own rules) that some people are addicted to, in much the same way as some crass people crowd around accident scenes in the hope of seeing seriously wounded people.
Europeans are anti-racists?
I’m sure I read that the British National Party had something of a revival in the European elections this year. Can anyone confirm this?
Refer to page 9, epcially section C of this document. Mokgadi Semenya should be on the clear.
I am celebrating already.
http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/imported/42028.pdf
The Telegraph is running a story that I hope is not true. Just seems too much of a coincidence.
“A source close to the investigation into the 800 metres gold medallist has confirmed that tests carried out before the start of the World Championships indicated that the runner had three times the normal female level of testosterone in her body.
Telegraph Sport can also reveal that the head coach of the South African team is Dr Ekkart Arbeit, the former East German coach who was accused by a female athlete of giving her so many anabolic steroids that she was forced to undergo a sex-change operation and live the rest of her life as a man.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6078171/World-Athletics-Caster-Semenya-tests-show-high-testosterone-levels.html
Yes, Mpho, about 6% of Britons voted for the BNP in June.
But I am note sure that we in SA, — where about 100% of us seem to base our vote on candidate’s skin shading — should be too quick to cite this figure to show that Britons are racist …
Mikhail, I am quite sure you are familiar with the saying: the best lies have a bit a truth in them. If you are, well then it seems that many of your sentiments reflect much the same theme.
With all respect – and yes, I do sincerely mean respect and not some thinly veiled slight – you sometimes speak just enough sense to almost conceal the drivel contained in many of your views. True, racism is a prevalent problem. But Mr Malema providing a solution – where’s the camera.
But introductory sentiments aside, my question to you is this: why go to all the trouble of construing points made by other bloggers only to take potentially interesting discussions into directions which will probably lead to dead ends?
Student, very nice to make your acquaitance. I would be interested to read why you think that the regrettable point that French people of Arab decent suffer much in the way of discrimination premised on race amounts to a debatable topic. That is, I agree with you that it does. But I would like to read your reasons if you have the time to reduce some of them to writing.
Apart from that, I am certainly enjoying your posts
Leigh, with utmost respect, it pains me very deeply that you view my suggestions as mere “drivel.” But I am sure you can appreciate that a very serious situation has developed in Berlin. Racist and sexist allegation have been made; these cannot go answered. A solution must be found. Our golden girl must be defended. South Africa’s honour must be restored. A spirit of Ubuntu must reign. It is solely in that spirit that I propose that Mr Malema be deployed without ado.
Yes, on considered reflection it seems I may well have overlooked the spirited contribution that Mr Malema has made to South Africa and yes, to humanity in general. Might I hereby add my voice to the startlingly wise appeals for Mr Malema to save us from this evil – as only he can
Respected bloggers, as I live in Germany, I should have refined my post to say that the majority of Germans are anti racist. When I say the majority, I mean the educated, for it is the uneducated minority here that cry “Auslander raus” under the premise that (we) Auslanders are taking their (the uneducated) jobs. This is of course nonsence because we feel that they don’t want to work anyway. Why should they when they basically get everything for free on the social system.
The Germany’s problem with allowing Turkey into the EU is that they have a dismal human rights record. The Christian Democratic Union (CDU), want them in because they see possibilities for aquiring a cheap labour market, which may well be the alterior motive, but I don’t think it’s the Islam card as STUDENT mentioned earlier.
About Europeans on the whole being racist, well, the 6% that voted BNP in the UK is a tiny fraction of the whole and fits closely to the unemployment figures in the UK. Illiterates led by one or two intelectuals.
I can’t comment on the French situation, but one thing is for sure, no one likes radicals marching down the road with signs like this
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00170/F_200602_February04_170813a.jpg
This subject is very off topic, so let’s get back to the more important constitutional issued that need debating!
[...] this young woman, but has likewise conflated several unrelated and yet entirely related issues: sex, gender and sexual orientation. The latter two categories are not actually relevant to the IAAF’s argument of fairness. The [...]
I have nothing against the gender or sex tests per se. My problem comes when those tests reveal that a person is not a woman even if she has a vagina only. What recourse does that kind of a person have? She can’t compete as a woman, and can’t compete as a man either. Isn’t this some kind of discrimination?