I see MAN Ferrostaal has issued a statement about the claims by the Sunday Times that it paid a R30 million bribe to the ANC, facilitated by President Thabo Mbeki. The Sunday Times also claimed President Mbeki gave R2 million of this money to Jacob Zuma. The statement by MAN Ferrostaal reads in part:
MAN Ferrostaal never made any payments to SA President Thabo Mbeki, to Jacob Zuma or to any other member of the ANC or to any other public official. MAN Ferrostaal in addition states that the articles mentioned contain a large number of factual errors with regards to MAN Ferrostaal and therefore violates the basics of journalistic accuracy.
The statement does NOT deny that money was paid to the ANC – only that it was not paid to an individual official. If such a denial is issued by a big company it is always important to note what is being denied and what not because it will tell one what the truth might be. The fact that MAN Ferrostaal does not deny giving money to the ANC is basically an admission on its part that it did give money to the ANC. That’s all sorted out then. All we need to know now is why they gave this money, what understanding they reached with ANC leaders about the quid-pro-quo for this payment to the ANC and whether their investment was a good one for their business.
Unless I have missed it, the only person who has now not issued SOME kind of denial about the Sunday Times report is Mr. Jacob Zuma. Wonder why he is so silent. In the absence of a blanket denial from him, his silence speaks rather eloquently about his own involvement in this tawdry affair just as the Presidency’s denial that Mr. Mbeki did not benefit personally from any bribe is rather telling.
One thing is for sure: we have not yet heard the end of the arms deal. As the ANC infighting continues more people will talk. Why don’t the ANC just come out and admit they received money from arms dealers so that the bleeding can stop. The first lesson of how to deal with a scandal is to deny that which can be denied, admit the rest, apologise to the nation and move on. The silence just breeds suspicion and the bleeding will continue.
Well I agree that this whole arms deal issue will not go away so long as Zuma stands alone on the dock. More than ever, the president needs to establish a commission of inquery, where anyone with information will present it. We will not allow the persecution of one by another. It is common cause that Zuma was not involved in the primary contracts of the arms deal. Why then is he singled out alone. This of course prof is not an admission of guilt on Zumas part.
One other thing Zuma is busy with the courts why should he be complled to respond to newspaper allegations. If the sundaytimes report was genuine they would have contacted Zuma before the story was published to hear his side. This they failed as they have been failling in the past Let them sell papers and leave Zuma out of it. Besides why would prof lobby for Zuma’s responce. We should hope that you not coopted as thier legal representative, or you positioning your self prof? Oh boy, these days any thing possible.
I mean the sundaytimes legal representative. Is prof working for the times??
T,
What are you saying?
Welcome back Khosi – What is your take on all this, especially the fact that it has now been revealed that the source of the information to the paper has died?
It is tragic how quickly and how cheaply the mighty ANC has fallen. I only hope they are not still around in 10 years time presiding over the ruins of this country, Zanu-pf like, still claiming divine right to rule because of their liberation credentials.
Who knew that the ANC received such significant funding by way of arms deal bribes? Is there anyone with any integrity left in the ANC? Given that they cheated in this way in the last election, shouldn’t they forfeit the result …
T,
You have the point. I can never agree with more than this.
Thanks T.
T, no unfortunately I am not working for the Sunday Times. Extra money would have come in handy! I agree that the NPA should pursue the arms deal and not only focus on Zuma. Their failure to do this properly is a black mark against them. Although we know now from the Ginwala Commission that the DG for Justice has been trying to stop them pursuing the arms deal investigation so it might not be entirely their own fault….
Pierre,
this is the first senseable comment I have ever heard from you, bravo!!!
So “it might not be entirely their own fault” who fault is it? the Governement fault? Do they have the right to prosecute without fear, favour or prejudice as they preach on daily basis when they persuing “charges” against Zuma?
I hope they should adopt the same principle, may I don’t have full understanding of their function/s.
maseko, I realy wouldn’t be surprized if you told me you obtained your law degree via some internet scam or trough a corrupt ANC contact, nor would I refer to you as a learned colleague. You’re nothing more than a groupie and the more people try to tell you the morer you make an ass of yourself.
God Bless,
what are people telling me? is this an admission of failure on your side? You feel bad that your conspiracy agianst Zuma won’t succeed? I feel the bitterness there.
don’t worry you will win some other time but not this time around. We are out there to die and kill for him if necessary.
No Zuma, No country. If Zuma is not the next president we will render this country ungovernable that is why Mohlante has also distance himself as a potential presidential candidate. We want no one but Zuma.
It is through your (and Government and the NPA)persistent arrogant approach against Zuma that leads to everyone adopting this stupid arrogant approach, which will take us no where but to an ungovernable country with a lot of civil wars
If Zuma gets elected I will give you an open mouth kiss.
God Bless,
I don’t need that it’s too late.
He is already the state president.
thanks.
Wars started by you and your fellow Zuma followers maseko? What patriots you are! Who gives a damn about the country, we love JZ!! Since it’s not the country you care about then why not let him step down from the runnings and follow him in some cult of mass genocide? That way you still will get to hear him stand in silence about his innocence before you swallow the poison???
“It is common cause that Zuma was not involved in the primary contracts of the arms deal. Why then is he singled out alone.”
This argument has been proffered often as if this case is an official arms deal investigation, which it isn’t. Moreover, it does not matter whether Zuma was a primary contact, he involved himself in aspects of certain dealings on Shaik’s behalf.
The “Singling out of Zuma” argument does not constitute a defense, at best it is a weak argument for a political conspiracy, since conspiracy or not, the money trail remains. And the money trail (in the Zuma case, not the sunday times 30mil) only implicates Shaik and Zuma locally and non of those in the official arms dealings.
I do wonder whether whoever follows up Mbeki would institute a proper investigation into the deal, though.
Regarding Lindelani: I think Pierre once said people are going to think he created this person. I am not saying that he did, but I am doubtful about the authenticity of our Lindelani when looking at the inconsistencies in writing style, vocabulary and spelling (allowing for mistakes) since he/she started posting.
Will we hear someone argue that he should have been charged together with the ANC?
Was only R30 million deployed to the Movement, or it is too little? If ANC wants clean books as they said after Polokwane, whay are they not asking Msimang to tell us whether money was deployed to the Movement? Instead of focussing on the ANC alone, it is fair to say that the arms dealer should have paid “bribes” to all parties in proportion to their seats in Parliament…and everybody would be happy!
Sorry if I sound tired, I have been guarding cars outside the “talks” hotel all night!
Peter – What worries me is that many of the arms procured in the arms deal thing cannot be used, either because we do not have enough trained pilots to fly them (the war planes), or because there are something wrong with them (the submarines). Doesn’t this mean that we did not even have to buy the arms, and that the powers that be just saw a way in which to blow taxpayers’ money and to make an extra buck themselves?
Mouse – I am sort of comfortable that we needed an upgrade here and there, but nothing near the scale eventually inflicted upon us. It seems that almost all the of the choices were decided based on the size of the bribe on offer, and these choices all cost at least double the most sensible bid.
This military industrial complex Einsenhower warned against really is a dark force to be reckoned with, especially when coupled with a liberation movement freshly in control of the purse strings of a healthy budget, and whose leaders arrived in power with no personal wealth to speak of after many years spent on the struggle and/or in jail.
And yes, it is already clear that the SANDF is going to struggle to run and maintain all these new toys. Modise and Nyande, who should have seen these capacity contraints, were too busy also hussling at the trough to give a damn.
When negotiations were going on between the ANC and the previous regime it was clear that the country needed new acquisitions. The Arms companies were already courting the ANC leadership long before the end of apartheid, using other african leaders as marketing tools in stroking the ANC leadership’s ego that they could serve as the major peace-keeping force in Africa.
Our country just needed to upgrade the already established infrastructure that built six of the strikecraft as well as the once pride of the SA Navy, the SAS DRAKENSBERG.
Thousands of skilled artisans in the Defence Force were retrenched with “golden handshakes” during the early 90′s.
But just like Hansie couldn’t resist the lure, so too have once noble icons submitted to the beast.
“Doesn’t this mean that we did not even have to buy the arms, and that the powers that be just saw a way in which to blow taxpayers’ money and to make an extra buck themselves?”
No we did need them, but we could of built them ourselves, and end up building Arms for the rest of Africa.
So much for “African Renaissance”!
The assertion that Zuma has been singled out , is no proof of innocence on his part. In fact, the opposite is true – it is an admission of guilt.
I wonder why this is so difficult for some people to comprehend.
” Doesn’t this mean that we did not even have to buy the arms, and that the powers that be just saw a way in which to blow taxpayers’ money and to make an extra buck themselves?”
No, we did need the arms. But we could have built them ourselves.
We already had a capable infrastructure to in place to build these ships (we had built six of our 9 strikecrafts here as well as the once pride of the SA Navy – the SAS DRAKENSBERG). The early 90′s saw the retrenchment of 1000′s of skilled artisans and engineers from the Defence Force with “golden handshakes”. By upgrading this infrastructure South Africa could have not only built the present acquisitions but also build for the rest of Africa.
So much for the “African Renaissance.
But of course, before negotiations even started between the ANC and the Apartheid Regime, Arms companies were courting the ANC leadership.
Once noble icons couldn’t resist their lure (well even Hansie couldn’t in his situation) and submitted to their bidding.
I consider this betrayal worse than Apartheid itself.
________
“To be deceived by our enemies or betrayed by our friends in insupportable; yet by ourselves we are often content to be so treated”.
Duc de La Rochefoucauld (1613 – 1680)
LOL!!
Thought my previous comment wasn’t posted.
oh well……………
In the light of the ingenuous denials by Mbeki & MAN Ferrostaal, there seem to be a prima facie case for the NPA to charge the ANC & Zuma, as the recipients, with bribery & corruption. Commission of inquiry? Yeah, yeah … If the NPA won’t do it, why not a private prosecution at the instance of a public interest group such as the DA?
As an aside, I’m intrigued at the use of your comment facility as some sort of free e-mail provider by some of your commentators to exchange private messages, of no interest to others.
z – I am new around here, but reading through previous comments, I have to agree with you regarding lindelani. For me it is particularly difficult to believe that a lawyer – and therefore someone with a university education – could have such a poor grasp of vocabulary, grammar and spelling.
Maybe this can explain it.
http://www.legalbrief.co.za/article.php?story=20070404080533348
NM,
I don’t spend time considering my vocabulary, grammar and spelling and for your information I dont care about these.
The biase, uninformed, Mbeki-D.A camp motivated articles posted on this blog drives me insane, leaving out the space and time for considering vocabulary, grammar and spelling.
In any even, I am English and I ahve no intentions to be same. During my articles of clerkship (served with Webber Wentzel-Illovo) I use to address courts in isiZulu. (why not)
I hope you “great English schoolars” will excuse my vocabulary, grammar, spelling
I am not English and I have no intentions of becoming same.- for your correction
NM
lindelani
- grammar at times good and at times dismal, I fail to reconcile it even taking spelling mistakes into account. Initially it was all bad and suddenly improved and then was up and down.
- Searching on google shows this as the primary place where lindelani comments under this name, for a while. I would have expected more involvement from the extreme views, such as on friendsofjz.
- lindelani often only says mainstream things, such as I could expect from someone with little knowledge of his own side of the story. I read friendsofjz almost daily and have read numerous comments from the more extreme JZ defenders on thought leader and news sites and here and lindelani does not seem to be in on the deeper levels and “flow” of their argumentation. Almost as if lindelani does not often have contact with the “gang” if you will, which is odd considering the extremity of the expressed views.
- lindelani has a linkedin profile. It has been recently updated. When lindelani started I check it out and showed std bank as employer and 1 connection. Now it shows investec and 0 connections.
- People don’t often drop linkedin connections, it is counter productive.
- The place of work was changed without showing both the old and new one for experience.
- Someone mentioned lindelani working at investec while the profile still said std bank. How did this person know?
There are people out there who use the anonymity of the internet for playing games and getting attention. I know of someone who impersonated a well known professor and almost faced legal action from him when it was uncovered. This person had a couple of “personalities” each with their own account on the site where it happened.
So I have stopped engaging lindelani a while ago, until such time as my reservations are proven unfounded.
What’s your point NM? I really don’t get it
With which law society are you registered lindelani?
Law Society of the Nothern provinces
Which maseko are you?
MISS N MASEKO working at MASEKO, TILANA INC, GAUTENG
MISS S M MASEKO working at MASEKO (S.M) ATTORNEYS, GAUTENG
MR J MASEKO working at MASEKO (J) INC, GAUTENG
MR TKT MASEKO working at WEBBER, WENTZEL (INC MALLINICKS), GAUTENG
Z,
Don’t get too excited now , I have recently got admitted, this year
My does not appear as yet
Lindelani
When did you graduate and from which university?
I finished my LLB in 2005 and graduated on 28 March 2006 from the university of the Witwatersrand.
Happy now?
Lindelani
When did you do your aticles with webber and wentzel?
I did my articles with Gordon Holtamm attorneys (now called Holtmann Wright Attorneys) 29 Jan Smuts, Parktown.
was pulling your leg about Webbers
Z,
why do you need all this information for ? be careful!
Yeah right, why pull my leg, there’s nothing funny about. Easy to move from a really well known place, whose records are easily verifiable to some unknown?
What is funny is that there is no Gordon Holtmann, Holtmann and Wright or Wright and Holtmann on the law society’s records?
Explain that one? Are they new too?
Z,
You wrong search for Gordon Holtmann attorney he is there.
he is one of the best lawyers practising on their own account in the country.
No legal firm doesn’t know him. He started practing for his own account since 1973.
lindelani – My point is this:
I am sure that many, if not most, of those who leave comments on this blog, being South African, do not speak English as a first language. I certainly do not. We all make the occasional spelling or grammar mistake. Yet somehow, most of us seem to find the few extra moments to check that our writings can at least be understood by others. The grammar in some of your rantings is so attrocious, that you seem to think that you can form a sentence by merely stringing together a random sequence of emotionally charged words.
Sadly, this seems to be a hallmark of the new order. Since education is no longer a desirable quality in a leader, it has become acceptable to spew incomprehensible gibberish, and then to blame “counter-revolutionaries” when one is not understood. Already it seems that being educated, or appearing to be educated, has become equal to being counter-revolutionary.
I do not have a legal background, but it seems to me that lawyers earn their bread with words. Wouldn’t a lawyer, then, be exceptionally aware of the dangers of miscommunication and misunderstanding lurking in the muddy waters of not expressing oneself clearly?
(Is it possible now to earn a law degree in South Africa entirely in Zulu, without being able to read or write English? I would be most interested to know.)
This is one of the reasons I find it hard to believe that you are a lawyer. The fact that, as mentioned by z, this display of poor grammar and spelling is sometimes interspersed with writing of a far superior quality only adds to this suspicion.
Incidentally, I am also sure that none of the first-language English speakers here would call themselves “English”, unless they really hail from that country.
You didn’t do articles at Gordon Holtmann did you?
Would you like to tell us where you really did your articles?
Z,
You such a clown. Tell me did you find Gordon Holtmann? Last time you couldn’t find him,I wonder?
Good that’s where I did my articles.
Tell us did you sucessfully find Gordon Holtmann?
If you really are lindelani maseko, you would know that you didn’t do it through them, or is the law society conspiring against you?
Z,
What is the law society saying please advise?
No, no you must say. You’ve already changed your story once.
Z,
Changed my “story”? You tell me. What the Law society’s records say
Z, I think that Pierre was the first one to say that Lindelani worked for Investec. At the time I assumed that that meant Pierre had access to the server’s details that Lindelani posted from (there’s some IP thing that you are going to teach me about now, isn’t there.
You changed your story when you said you did articles with “Webber Wentzel” and then “Gordon Holtmann”.
Do you have a phone number for Gordon Holtmann? There was no answer when I called, but I might have an outdated phone number.
The law society said you did your articles with Maharaj, is that incorrect?
Mpho
Yeah, that’s true, it is possible that lindelani’s email address as given to the site is from the investec domain, or that he checked the ip address and threw them in the browser, probably the email.
Pierre
Any light you can shed?
z
I don’t think Lindelani wants to play with you anymore.
Mpho
Hehe. Pwetty pwease windewani!
It is quite amazing how helpful people are in giving out information. The girl from Webber and Wentzel was nice and gave me a name and number at the law society, where click click they give you all the details. The law society should spend the time to update their website though. I didn’t quite catch the middle name for maseko, but they did confirm a wits degree.
Gordon Holtmann was slippery yes, but eventually I did get a phone number, but no answer.
So the question is now, why lie about the articles? Is it the real lindelani? But enough private investigation, I will now retire for the night as well.
correction: Webber and Wentzel -> Webber Wentzel
Oh and the only people I haven’t heard back from yet, is WITS.
Maybe this discussion is a bit off topic! But to assist: when people leave messages I can see their email address (Lindelani’s is an investec email) and the server they use (Investec). I cannot shed any more light on the matter….
Pierre
I am immediately withdrawing all I have to do with investec, if lindelani is part of them I wont trust them with one cent! I will however require about who he is from his bosses!
Enquire that is, appologies offered!
If lindelani is a lawyer we are doomed I tell you,…..doomed.
I believe that civilised discourse in any forum requires that participants respect the privacy and personal integrity of others.
I am, therefore, dismayed & disappointed by the disregard for Lindelani’s privacy & personal integrity in this forum.
In my opinion -
The fact that he is provocative is no excuse, and negative comments about his spelling & grammar are “below the belt”.
Disclosure of sensitive details relating to his e-mail address is unacceptable (“will not be published”).
“Off-topic” personal exchanges seriously lower the tone of the discourse and the forum ; banter is acceptable, but personal attacks are not.
Maurice
I fully agree with you. What is most dissapointing to me is that Prof has also entered the fray by disclosing Lindelani’s confidential information.
I think Prof owes Lindelani and us an apology!
Lindelani is on Linkden where he reveals he works for Investec so I did not reveal any information not in the public domain…
Prof, I accept your explanation.
Perhaps somewhat more active moderation might prevent your forum being used for unintended purposes?
Bongs, I accept Prof’s explanation & an apology from him is not, therefore, required, but some others who took “potshots” at Lindelani might consider an apology.
Maurice
Regarding privacy:
- Lindelani was the first to disclose personal info unasked (re articles)
- He answered questions voluntarily
- He asked me disclose where the law society said he did his articles, if he is the real L Maseko
- His email address was not disclosed. That he works at investec is available through his own doing on linkedin DOT com.
- All the information was easily available by asking around based on information HE supplied.
- The law society keeps records of all attorneys and they are freely available on their website, along with place of work and phone number. He is apparently new, the only reason I had to contact them. Maybe you’d like to talk to them about why they put attorney details on the web?
- Let it be noted that I was offered Lindelani’s phone number and refused.
Regarding grammar and spelling:
- I have no problem with people because of language, some do but I don’t.
- On another occasion I engaged Lindelani because he took on someone for misspelling his name. This is the only time I took on someone for poor language.
- My references to Lindelani’s use of language was really about its erratic nature in his writing (and not how good or bad it is), casting suspicion on whether someone is trying to look bad at language, but not always succeeding.
Lindelani has made so many abusive statements on this site, and almost exclusively on this site, that I would be hard pressed to find the time to count them, due to the frequency of posting. I think for someone posting as often it is useful to know whether this person is real and expressing real viewpoints.
I agree that off topic exchanges can lower the tone of discourse.
I have been involved in scenarios where people impersonated others as mentioned somewhere above. These type of people are ones who post on the web, often radical statements, just to get reaction and get attention, and if you want detraction from debate, then those are at the forefront. They often become the debate, where everyone engages them and their extreme views or personal remarks and ad hominem attacks; that’s serious detraction from serious debate. If Lindelani turns out not to be such (and I am not yet completely convinced), I would definitely apologise for my undue suspicions.
z
Thank you for your comments.
I agree with you that Lindelani’s style & tone are vexatious and I think that more active moderation of blogs would up the tone.
Prof. will, however, have to walk a narrow line on this one, i.e., what is free expression & what is not?
Perhaps relevancy to the topic is a fair criterion?
Are you people apologising or not?
I think that more than one person posts under the lindelani maseko name. There was a long post a few weeks ago to Anonymouse which was clearly not written in the language or style that lindelani normally writes in. Further lindelani often attacks Bloggers who have clearly stated that they are not practising lawyers, claiming his enhanced legal knowledge to be superior.
As z had him admit, whoever was writing under the name lindelani maseko yesterday did not have the correct knowledge to hand re: lindelani maseko’s background.
Do we allow freedom of expression and Bloggers right to privacy supersede someone falsely impersonating a real person? I don’t think that is fair.
If this person is not lindelani maseko then he can write under another pen name. Because if he is not lindelani maseko, then I don’t think the Investec employee with that name will be happy to know that someone has been writing under his name as this Blogger has on occasion.
Pierre, nou is hier ‘n blik wurms oopgesny. Jy sal moet sorg dat hierdie gewaardeerde blog weer om standaard kom.