Constitutional Hill

On the legality of the continued presence of SA soldiers in the CAR

An unconfirmed number of South African troops remain stationed in the Central African Republic (CAR), while some reports claim that South Africa has sent (or is preparing to send) more troops to that country, whose government was last week illegally overthrown by rebel forces. The new rulers are not recognised by either the United Nations or the African Union. Pressing questions arise about the legal basis for the continued presence of our troops in the CAR, both in terms of South African and international law. Here is why.

In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq by the United States and Britain, the invading parties sought a resolution from the United Nations Security Council to sanction its invasion in order to provide it with cover in terms of international law. This resolution was blocked when France – a permanent member of the Security Council – threatened to veto it. South Africa, to its credit, also stood firm in its opposition to such a resolution on the grounds that an invasion would breach the UN Charter, which safeguards the sovereignty of all states. Many international lawyers argued at the time that the invasion was in breach of international law and that George Bush and Tony Blair could be prosecuted at the International Criminal Court for war crimes. Realpolitik prevented this line of argument being pursued seriously by any of the states opposed to the invasion.

Later, serious concerns were also raised about the legality of NATO bombings in Libya during the uprising against the regime of Muammar Gaddafi, ostensibly under the cover of a UN Security Council resolution allowing actions to be taken to protect civilians in that country. Questions about the legality of military involvement in the internal affairs of a sovereign country stems, first and foremost, from article 2.4 of the United Nations Charter, which states that:

All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

But there are requirements of customary international law that protect even states that are not members of the United Nations. These rules of customary international law impose legal duties on all states not to violate the sovereignty of another State; not to intervene in the affairs of another State; and not to use force against another State – unless formally sanctioned by bilateral agreements or by the UN or African Union.

It is therefore important to establish that South Africa has a legal mandate to station troops in the CAR, whether the mandate is provided by an official resolution of the UN Security Council or the African Union or by a valid bilateral agreement with the CAR. Although our presence in the CAR cannot be equated with the unlawful invasion of Iraq, many of the same international law legal principles are applicable in the present case.

President Jacob Zuma announced in early January this year that a decision had been taken to send more South African troops to the CAR “to render support in fulfilment of an international obligation of the Republic of South Africa towards the CAR”. This international obligation of South Africa apparently arose from a bilateral agreement between the South Africa and the CAR. As far as I can tell, the agreement has not been made public, but we have been told that in terms of the agreement South Africa would provide VIP assistance to the deposed President Francois Bozize and “assist with capacity building of the CAR Defence Force” and “with the planning and implementation of the disarmament, demobilisation and re-integration” of rebels into the army.

In a written reply in Parliament South Africa’s Minister of Defence stated that the bilateral agreement between South Africa and the CAR was in the form of a memorandum of understanding (MOU) “to capacitate the Armed Forces of Central African Republic (FACA) to be able to defend and protect the sovereignty and territory of the Central African Republic. Based on the signed MOU the SANDF deployed a contingent to train FACA on VIP Protection, Sub Units and Junior Leader Group.

Section 231 of the South African Constitution states that “[a]n international agreement binds the Republic only after it has been approved by resolution in both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces” (NCOP), unless it is “of a technical, administrative or executive nature, or an agreement which does not require either ratification or accession”. It is at best unclear whether the agreement between South Africa and the CAR required assent by the National Assembly and the NCOP. If it did require assent, and if the two houses of Parliament had not approved it, the agreement would never have come into force and South Africa’s deployment of troops would have been illegal from the start as there would not be any legal agreement with the CAR.

However, even if the agreement was only of a technical nature, section 231 requires that it must be tabled in the National Assembly and the NCOP “within a reasonable time”. I have been unable to find any information about whether the required tabling in fact took place. Hopefully the Speaker of Parliament, the Presidency or the Minister of International Relations can allay fears that the requirements of our Constitution might have been ignored in this regard.

Even if all the constitutional requirements for the establishing of a valid bilateral agreement were complied with, it is far from clear that the bilateral agreement concluded between South Africa and the CAR are still in existence. There are two rules of international law regarding treaties that might suggest that no binding agreement exists at present.

First, the rule of rebus sic stantibus establishes the principle that an agreement between states is valid only for as long as the basic facts present at the time the agreement was concluded remains the same. This rule has arguably been slightly altered by article 62 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties of 1969, which now requires that the treaty would only be invalidated if “the existence of those circumstances constituted an essential basis of the consent of the parties to be bound by the treaty and the effect of the change is radically to transform the extent of obligations still to be performed under the treaty”.

Given the fact that the agreement was reached at a time when there was an AU recognised government in place in the CAR and when there was indeed a CAR military to train, and given further that South Africa, as a loyal member of the AU, do not recognise the rebel government in the CAR and that the AU prohibits South Africa from supporting the unlawful rebel government in any way, I would suggest that the essential requirements for the continued validity of the bilateral agreement have fallen away.

However, there is a second reason why the bilateral agreement must surely now be void, namely that when it becomes objectively impossible to fulfil the conditions of the agreement, the agreement between states will terminate. This is confirmed by article 61 of the Vienna Convention that states that the impossibility of performing a treaty is a ground for terminating a treaty if “the impossibility results from the permanent disappearance or destruction of an object indispensable for the execution of the treaty”.

Thirteen South African soldiers have died at the hands of rebel forces who are now in control of the CAR. President Bozize has fled to Cameroon. The CAR army has disintegrated. It is therefore impossible to train the CAR army or to protect President Bozize as per the original bilateral agreement. In these circumstances it is not possible to argue that South Africa can fulfil its obligations in terms of this bilateral agreement with the CAR.

Given these circumstances, it is far from clear that the continued presence of South African troops in a sovereign country does not violate the UN Charter as well as customary international law.

Imagine, for a moment, that the apartheid government had been overthrown by Umkhonto we Sizwe while troops from the United States of America were stationed in the country in terms of a bilateral agreement in order to protect President FW de Klerk and to train members of the then South African Defence Force. If the US had refused to withdraw its troops (after a bloody battle with Umkhonto soldiers in which 13 US soldiers had been killed), citing the noble mission of protect American business interests and bringing peace and stability to us primitive Africans, most of us would have been outraged at the continued presence of the US army seen as having tried to prop up the apartheid regime. Many lawyers would also have cited the international law principles mentioned above to question the legality of the continued presence of US troops in what would have then been a newly liberated state.

While the rebels who now rule the CAR cannot in any way be equated with Umkhonto and the ANC (the latter having fought against apartheid which the UN had labeled a crime against humanity), the legal issues would be similar. At the very least, the Presidency, the Minister of Defence and the Minister of International Relations should address concerns that South Africa’s continued presence in the CAR is unlawful, and that this exposes our troops to possible prosecution by international bodies. Statements made by AU officials or in a BRICS communique, affirming the need of States to support efforts to stabilise the situation in the CAR do not change the legal position regarding our troops.

As the original purpose of the deployment of troops to the CAR has now fallen away, President Zuma is also constitutionally required to inform Parliament forthwith whether our troops will remain in the CAR and if so what the legal basis of this continued deployment might be. After all, the last thing we want is a kind of mission creep, something which got the USA into a terrible mess in Vietnam in the first war it ever lost. We might then also be told whether private business interests of ANC aligned individuals played a role in the January deployment and in any decision to remain in the CAR despite the fact that the original purpose of the mission has become impossible to pursue.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “President Jacob Zuma announced in early January this year that a decision had been taken to send more South African troops to the CAR “to render support in fulfilment of an international obligation of the Republic of South Africa towards the CAR”. This international obligation of South Africa apparently arose from a bilateral agreement between the South Africa and the CAR. As far as I can tell, the agreement has not been made public, but we have been told that in terms of the agreement South Africa would provide VIP assistance to the deposed President Francois Bozize and *“assist with capacity building of the CAR Defence Force”* and *“with the planning and implementation of the disarmament, demobilisation and re-integration” of rebels into the army.”*

    But we know that is a lie, because at the same time France and the USA were withdrawing all their personnel including troops. Warnings were issued by the UN, the AU and and the EU.

    I can not imagine for one second that our military and our Chief Commander would not have known that. In other words, at the time he KNEW he was putting them in harms way or else he must have sent them in with the premeditated motive of fulfilling a mission, i.e. engaging in armed conflict with rebel forces.

  • lunga

    Then Zuma can stand trial in the Hague given that SADF remain there and kill people of CAR.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    UN, US issue warnings in Central African Republic (27/12/2012)

    The UN has begun evacuating staff and families from the Central African Republic, while the US has also urged its citizens to leave the country as rebel forces close in on the capital, Bangui.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20121227-central-african-republic-un-usa-evacuations-rebels-advance-bangui

  • Pierre De Vos

    Ozoneblue, for once I agree with you. The reasons given could not possibly have been accurate. In fact privately DIRCO officials stated that the reasons were political, to protect Bozize regime and scare off rebels. Now the M&G story suggests there might have been non-strategic reasons for “scaring off” the rebels.

  • StevenI

    Unfortunately its another case of ANC greed.

    Pure and simple!

    What a legacy for SA

  • Gwebecimele

    As usual refuse to see beyond your feet.
    All of you were dreaming on that day it did not happen.
    Next

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2013/03/28/court-acquits-all-seven-police-accused-of-killing-tatane

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hayibo Pierre,

    “President Zuma is also constitutionally required to inform Parliament forthwith”.

    Professor Zuma outwitted the entire legal system and the entire state machinery.

    He politically devastated Kgalema, Juju, Sexwale +++

    He had the state build him two airfields, a tuckshop, a clinic, a cattle tunnel and more at over R250 million from state resources.

    There’s a shit load more.

    So before we get too excited about what the constitution says, consider that Zuma is one of the few who could stick his middle finger at the courts, parliament, chapter nine institutions and no one can do a thing about it.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    It saddens me that is a solid consensus on this blog against the steps SA is taking in CAR. (I emphasise that I am not addressing the domestic constitutional issues upon which PdV focussed.)

    If you wait around for multi-lateral institutions to give a mandate to act, most often nothing gets done. That’s what happened in Rwanda. 400,000 were slaughtered while the OAU and the UN dithered and debated. At least in retrospect, we can all surely agree that the U.S. or France, or even SA, should have moved unilaterally to restrain the Hutu militants.

    If the U.S. had not acted unilaterally, the Muslims in Bosnia would have been exterminated, Saddam would still be gassing Kurds, and Colonel Gaddafi (whom I otherwise supported), would still have been Brother Leader. It seems that Professor Zuma has learned a lesson about the need to a regional superpower to act decisively in the interests of UBUNTU!

    Thanks

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Gwebecimele, from what you’ve seen: What did you think of the prosecution of that case?

    Gwebecimele says:
    March 28, 2013 at 12:59 pm

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    This country is in the midst of a constitutional crisis: The President and his legal advisor are refusing to comply with an Order of Court.

    Why are the the Official Opposition, the Christian parties, Cde Terror still in it? Besides helping keep the charade of a multi-party parliamentary democracy alive?

    Are they hard-up for money? When they jeer, do they think it is EASY for trade union members to go on strike? Are they simply less principled?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Chris, as a trial lawyer: WHat do you think of the prosecution of the killers of Andries Tatane?

    Dr Mouse?

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 28, 2013 at 15:10 pm

    FUBAR Guy,

    “This country is in the midst of a constitutional crisis: The President and his legal advisor are refusing to comply with an Order of Court.”

    Guess what will happen to Zuma? JR will advise!

  • Chris

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 28, 2013 at 15:11 pm

    Brett I only read the headlines. From what I heard on the news the problem lies with identity. The State has to prove the identity of the policemen involved beyond reasonable doubt in the criminal case. Sometimes it is enough to prove common purpose. In Safatsa the Appeal Court enunciated it like this: “These accused shared a common purpose with the crowd to kill the deceased and each of them had the requisite dolus in respect of his death. Consequently the acts of the mob which caused the deceased’s death must be imputed to each of these accused.” Apparently that was also not proven in this case.The sad thing is that each and every policeman who was on the scene probably knew exactly who fired the rubber bullet, and refused to say a word.

    However this will not be a defense in case of a civil claim, where the litigent (probably the wife) will just have to prove that members of the police acted unlawfully in killing her husband, and that the suffered a loss as a result.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
  • Jama kaSijadu

    It sounds like our valid reasons for being in the CAR have now fallen away & a new legal mandate has to be created. Withdrawing seems to not even be an option at this stage. As a AU member, are we not obligated to assist in ensuring that Africa is rid of the curse of perpetual coup de tat’s?
    Whilst we empathise with the families of our fallen soldiers, & are amazed at the confused priorities of our government in deployment of our armed forces, the French have soldiers there too with a clear mandate to defend French owned uranium mines etc.
    Surely there is a “bigger picture” (other than Khulubuse’s mines) to be considered for our continued involvement there, in terms of playing a role in stabilizing our continent?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Jama

    “Withdrawing seems to not even be an option at this stage”

    Jama is right. That is why George Bush used to say “STAY THE COURSE.”

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Soon we will be hated in most of Africa much like the imperial USA/UK are hated through the world. Our citizens travelling and doing business elsewhere will suffer the consequences.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Jama kaSijadu
    March 29, 2013 at 6:47 am

    “Whilst we empathise with the families of our fallen soldiers,”

    Why don’t you and the Zumas go and do your dirty fighting yourself. Your “empathy” mean fuck all as you continue send our our soldiers to sacrifice their lives for your private loot.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 29, 2013 at 8:57 am

    Dworky

    “Withdrawing seems to not even be an option at this stage”

    That does seem to be Zuma’s well used line. And it cost the state R250 million and counting!

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Jama kaSijadu
    March 29, 2013 at 6:47 am

    JkS and others,

    Someone please explain to me how is it in our national interests to end the turmoil in CAR and other African states!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Ah, Nkandlaspeak….

    So it is perfectly legitimate to use armed force to seize and protect minerals in other countries while talking nationalisation of mines at home, and allowing bilateral agreements protect miminmum human rights standards – incl investments and property – to lapse so the fascist state need not observe them….

    Zimbabwe, with the generals looking at those DRC cobalt and diamond mines, anyone?

    Jama kaSijadu says:
    March 29, 2013 at 6:47 am

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    Did Professor Zuma not at some point refer to a custom about not withdrawing from a kraal, where so to do would give rise to disappointment of expectations generated by your initial entry? Anyway, how does it feel to be united with Ozoneboy and Brett in righteous disapprobation? I myself am all with Jama on this one!

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 29, 2013 at 9:28 am

    Dworky,

    “Anyway, how does it feel to be united with Ozoneboy and Brett in righteous disapprobation?”

    The enemy within? We have to be careful, very careful!

    But where’s Dmwangi – I want to apologise to him for pointing out how stupid he is!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Strictly speaking this should not even be our problem. We should be reminding the fascist ANC kleptocratic state of South Africa that when the legislation was agreed upon and passed in terms of S235 of the South Africans’ Constitution by which we gained our independence under the legislation and the underlying treaty the inviolability of the borders of our Volkstaat was guaranteed.

    Ozoneblue says:
    March 29, 2013 at 9:04 am

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 29, 2013 at 9:10 am

    “Someone please explain to me how is it in our national interests to end the turmoil in CAR and other African states!”

    So are you suggesting we recolonise Africa? You are aware we have amongst others White farmers already constructively involved in helping to rebuild – not brutalise Africa. How would these actions compromise their safety and security?

    South Africa’s white farmers are moving further north

    “They are calling it the next great trek. Almost two centuries after Boers hitched their wagons to oxen and headed inland to establish the South African republic, they are on the move again. This time they are flying – and their destination is the whole of the African continent.

    White South African farmers are now being courted by the north, by countries who believe their agricultural expertise can kickstart an agrarian revolution across the continent. They are being offered millions of hectares of allegedly virgin rainforest and bush, as well as land already farmed by smallholders or used as pastures by herders.

    In the biggest deal to date, Congo-Brazzaville has offered South Africa farmers long leases on up to 10m hectares of land, an area that includes abandoned state farms and bush in the remote south-west of the country. The first contracts, which put 88,000 hectares in the hands of 70 farmers, were signed at a ceremony in the country last month.

    Meanwhile, in Mozambique, some 800 South African farmers have acquired a million hectares in the southern province of Gaza, thanks to an arrangement set up by sugar farmer Charl Senekal, an associate of the South African president, Jacob Zuma. This deal will be celebrated at a ceremony in Pretoria next month.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/01/boers-moving-north-african-governments

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    March 29, 2013 at 9:42 am

    Ozone Guy,

    “So are you suggesting we recolonise Africa?”

    Take a deep breath. Hold it for 10 seconds then breathe out slowly.

    Re read my post carefully – if you still don’t understand ask your nine year old son to help you.

    Dufus!

  • Alibama

    Newsgroups: za.politics
    Subject: This is why I need APARTHEID
    In previous times I never knew about the ‘HaDiDa’ screaming turkeys.
    Is it global warming that’s brought them?
    I appreciate that they are just calling their mates, as nature has
    evolved them; but I’ve been evolved to associate their tone with
    extreme distress, and suffer seriously, especially when needing to
    concentrate on my morning work.
    Theoretically, I could get a rifle and shoot some on the neighbour’s
    roofs. But …
    So either they go or I go. And they are not going to go.
    So hello NZ… or whatever…
    Birds of a feather flock together.
    Did you say I should “ENGAGE” ?

  • Howard Klaaste

    I read somewhere else about the existence of the Regulation of Foreign Military Assistance Act 15 of 1988, appearing to prevent the abuse of the SA military in foreign countries, for private gain.

    Is this act still in place, and does it mean Zuma could be charged, if what the Mail & Guardian’s Amabhungane (28 March) alleges is true?

  • Lisbeth
  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    March 29, 2013 at 18:41 pm

    Eish Lisbeth,

    Of course no one except the author and friends will remember that crap.

    At the time the Acting President who “went to war” was … guess who?

    It’s interesting that you’re trawling fringe right lunatics blogs for relevance!

  • Lisbeth

    Maggs -

    You no like right lunatics? I give you left.

    http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/16646

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Lisbeth
    March 29, 2013 at 20:14 pm

    “Cars with South African number plates were stoned and white journalists had to prove they were not South African to escape a beating.’

    Thank you Lisbeth. Why would they want to “beat” White South Africans when they were granted independence by the almighty British Empire. Are we talking more [typically nonracial] hatred against whites.

    How do you think this would work out for us Whites in CAR and elsewhere in Banana Republic of Africa?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfMwWLnpgGw

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Do you want a piece of me Lisbeth.

    I’m a waiting.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “The rebel now in charge of the Central African Republic has said his government will look into mining contracts signed with South African and Chinese companies by the ousted leader.

    Michel Djotodia said the new authorities would reconsider any deal that had been “badly done”.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21977438

    Zuma and ANC must go.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozoneguy

    “Do you want a piece of me Lisbeth.”

    Is this like when Brett issues his trademark “bite me” solicitations?

    Scary!

  • Lisbeth

    Ozoneblue -

    “Do you want a piece of me Lisbeth”

    Nah, I’ll pass. I’m a lover, not a fighter.

    As a matter of interest: what did I say to bring this on?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    He’s suggestible and he’s obviously spending the weekend watching movies.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Lisbeth
    March 30, 2013 at 15:22 pm

    “Nah, I’ll pass. I’m a lover, not a fighter.

    As a matter of interest: what did I say to bring this on?”

    I don’t know what to say. When I read this thread over and over again I can only say I don’t know how you brought this on.

    I’m very highly strung.

    Sincere apologies non the less.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    But I should not be so strung. I should just relax cause I lives in Africa.

    Kenya Supreme Court upholds Uhuru Kenyatta election win

    “Mr Kenyatta and his running mate, William Ruto, are expected to be sworn in as president and vice-president on 9 April.

    But they are facing trial on charges of crimes against humanity at the International Criminal Court (ICC) for allegedly fuelling unrest after that election. They deny the charges.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21979298

    “CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY”

    Now where did I hear that punch line before?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Meanwhile, Uhuru Kenyatta has been receiving the customary international congratulations. In the run-up to the election, some had warned of “consequences” if Kenya elected a president indicted by the International Criminal Court.” LOL.

    Uhuru Kenyatta

    - Born October 1961, son of founding President Mzee Jomo Kenyatta
    - Heir to one of the largest fortunes in Kenya, according to Forbes magazine
    - Groomed by former President Daniel arap Moi to be his successor, but heavily lost 2002 election to Mwai Kibaki
    - Second African president to be indicted by ICC, after Sudan’s Omar al-Bashir

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Julius Malema joins the DA

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2013/04/01/julius-malema-joins-the-da

    He he. Did I not say they belong together, long long time ago already.

    The counter revolutionaries are gaining momentum. And the ANC “liberation” has nothing left to stop that, nothing to offer us besides more of the same.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozoneguy

    “Julius Malema joins DA”

    I am aware that it is fashionable in the whitest press to publish so-called “jokes” at this time of the year. But there is no room in our democracy for tasteless speculation. Mr Malema would never consider associating with a party presided over by a RACIST RAT-BITTEN AUNTY who dances like a monkey!

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 1, 2013 at 11:14 am

    Stranger things have happened.

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2011/09/06/moeletsi-mbeki-calls-for-da-to-support-ancyl

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Ozone, it seems that Maggs was (for once), right in saying that Mr Malema is a SPENT FORCE. Consider the current crisis in Korea. Neither Mr Malema nor Mr Shivambu have uttered a word of solidarity with the Democratic People’s Republic as it stands alone against the Americans and their Seoul-puppet’s IMPERIALIST AGGRESSION!

    WDYSAT?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 1, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    I think Mr. Malema/Shivambu would say whatever they need to say to satisfy the requirements of the global imperial forces under the command of the Zionist entity.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Jujus-white-boy-20120331-2

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    There is no tradition in North-West of observing April Fool’s Day. There, it is perennial.

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    April 1, 2013 at 11:14 am

  • Lisbeth

    Our Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke’s brother? What!

    http://m.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/?articleId=8574195

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    It’s easy enough for cynics and the whinging DA to raise all kinds of technical objection to Mr Zuma’s powers, qua commander in chief, to deal with an emergency in one of our trusted allies.

    But we must not forget the broader objectives of our active involvement in Africa. As the ANC’s Chief Whip has said:

    “The development and prosperity of Africa remains the central objective of the government’s international perspective and policy for purposes of advancing the African Renaissance.”

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 1, 2013 at 15:56 pm

    “The development and prosperity of Africa remains the central objective of the government’s international perspective and policy for purposes of advancing the African Renaissance.”

    What did our government have to say about this:

    “Meanwhile, Uhuru Kenyatta has been receiving the customary international congratulations. In the run-up to the election, some had warned of “consequences” if Kenya elected a president indicted by the International Criminal Court.”

  • Alibama

    At least one company, Divine Inspiration Group Oil – owned by influential businesswoman Andrea
    Brown – is currently operating in the CAR.

    Brown, who is the sole director of the company, is a key business partner with Encha Group, an
    investment company founded by Tiego Moseneke, brother of current Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang
    Moseneke. She also acted as a consultant or worked with the government in the drafting of BEE
    legislation.
    ——–
    I haven’t see SATV for years, but during a visit today, was impressed at Blair’s comments
    at the “BBC Africa talk”. I’m wating for some journo to compare the ZA-Mafia-CAR show with Mugabe’s
    adventures, before his circus collapsed.
    As Blair implied: an open press works marvels.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    March 30, 2013 at 21:40 pm

    Hey OB

    “When I read this thread over and over again I can only say I don’t know how you brought this on.”

    Gosh man but you are really silly!

    Lisbeth did not bring that on.

    You misunderstood and talked nonsense.

    Admit it and move on.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    The cops can’t arrest a cowardly mob that beat a tourist to death at a rugby game, but shoot an attacker in your home and see what happens:

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/man-held-after-killing-intruder-1.1494026

    Man held after killing intruder

    April 1 2013 at 01:34pm
    By Colleen Dardagan

    Durban – A Durban resident is in custody after firing a warning
    shot which killed an intruder after it ricocheted off a kitchen
    wall in his Manor Gardens home on Sunday.

    Dennis Webster, who says his rented home has been broken into 15
    times by intruders because there is no alarm system, woke early
    to let his dog out. While he was in the bathroom he heard a noise
    in the kitchen.

    “I finished what I had to do and went towards the kitchen. I
    noticed a guy running through the room towards the inside of the
    house.”

    Webster had left a packet of money on his kitchen table the night
    before, but he was more concerned about his gun being stolen. He
    kept the gun in one of the cabinet drawers.

    “I lunged across to open the drawer and got the firearm out, but
    as I was doing that this guy came at me with a knife.”

    Webster said he was able to fire a warning shot which hit the
    kitchen wall.

    “It didn’t occur to me that the shot had ricocheted because the
    guy just kept coming at me and fighting me.”

    By this time, his wife, Jacqui, who was sleeping upstairs, had
    heard the commotion and had come downstairs.

    “I managed to get the guy around the neck and I shouted to my
    wife to tie him up. It was then that I noticed he became very
    weak,” Webster said.

    The bullet, said Webster, had lodged in the attacker’s right
    shoulder.

    “We phoned the cops who were there in about 30 minutes, but they
    would not declare the guy dead until an ambulance arrived. We
    could see he was gone,” he said.

    Three friends who were at the Mayville police station to lend the
    couple support, and who asked not to be named, said they were
    enraged at the actions of the police.

    “Here is a guy who is protecting his home and his wife and the
    police lock him up. It just doesn’t seem right. It’s ridiculous.”

    DA police spokeswoman Dianne Kohler Barnard, said the police had
    followed the correct procedure.

    “If a person kills another person the police have to arrest them
    and then they appear in court when they can apply for bail.

    “They did the right thing.”

    Investigating officers at the Mayville police station – who said
    they were not allowed to speak to The Mercury – said a special
    court sitting would take place today and Webster could apply for
    bail.

    Police spokesman Vincent Mdunge could not be reached on Sunday
    night.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 1, 2013 at 22:09 pm

    Hey Fubar Guy,

    This “gun in cabinet” thingy seems odd – don’t guns have to be locked in a gun safe?

    Anyway – let’s decide once the full facts emerge whether or not the cops in this case have done their work properly or just decided to pick on a nice guy!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    April 1, 2013 at 21:35 pm

    Ozoneblue
    March 30, 2013 at 21:40 pm

    Hey OB

    “When I read this thread over and over again I can only say I don’t know how you brought this on.”

    Gosh man but you are really silly!

    Lisbeth did not bring that on.

    You misunderstood and talked nonsense.

    Admit it and move on.”

    True. I’m sorry and apologies to Lisbeth. It was just the usual random shooting through the bathroom on late Friday nights – a bit .

    But hobbling on with my artificial limbs for another Olympic medal ;) No doubt.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 1, 2013 at 22:09 pm

    “A Durban resident is in custody after firing a warning
    shot which killed an intruder after it ricocheted off a kitchen
    wall in his Manor Gardens home on Sunday.”

    If it was me (and I was privileged enough to own a gun) I would have shot the fucker through the head.

    A couple of times at least. Let these cunts hang me for that.

    I don’t give a fuck any more.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Indeed they do, my dear Maggs!

    You ‘progressives’ have been quite ruthless in your strategy to disarm elderly white people.

    Firstly, I wish to remind you of Judge Didcott’s remarks in Case.

    Quite inconsistent with the campaign to terrorise gun owners to lock up their private property then crow when they are overrun in their homes because their guns are locked away, then remind them that they are going to sit for 15 years if their licences are not renewed by due date while chortling that there is an 8 year backlog in licence renewals so that is unlikely, so they might as well hand their guns in for destruction.

    Personally, as a person who tries to live ethically, I could not do that to old people.

    Fortunately, this Webster guy did not give in to that kind of intimidation or he’d be dead.

    Any sensible person’s gun are where they would do the most good – close at hand.

    Mine are….

    Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    April 1, 2013 at 23:44 pm

    “This “gun in cabinet” thingy seems odd – don’t guns have to be locked in a gun safe?”

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Contrast the silly DA spokesperson’s remarks with the correct SAPS interpretation of procedure, in the case where 5 Sharks bullies choked a visitor to our country out then when he came to beat him to death in full view of Fidelity Security and hundreds of Durbanites, all of whom did nothing:

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/bring-rugby-fan-s-killers-to-book-mec-1.1494074

    “Police spokesman Vincent Mdunge confirmed that an offer had been
    made by the suspects’ legal representatives that they should hand
    themselves over to the police.

    Mdunge said an arrest was meant to secure a suspect’s appearance
    in court. He said that the police also did not want to be hasty
    in their investigations because of public pressure.”

    This took place in a gun-free zone, I do believe?

  • Gwebecimele
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 2, 2013 at 8:39 am

    “Questions have been raised as to why the men – whose identity is known to the police – have not been arrested. They are believed to have struck a deal with police to hand themselves over this week.”

    Absolutely bizarre.

  • Gwebecimele

    http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/the-problem-with-whiteness-christi-van-der-westhuizen/

    “These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened or ended . . . I think whites are carefully taught not to recognise white privilege, as males are taught not to recognise male privilege . . . I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was ‘meant’ to remain oblivious.”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebs (quoting Christini Van der Westhuizen)

    Christi is right – except she must get her terminology in order, to avoid confusion. Instead of referring to “whites”‘ (the old apartheid term), she should say WHITISH people. She should also correctly name the legitimating ideology, which is WHITISM.

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Christi Van der Westhuizen

    I say it is especially useful for Christi to point out that “complaints about corruption or the state of education” are part of the “discourse of white superiority.”

    My only question is why it has taken so long for Professor VDW to catch on to what Mr Zuma, and Mr Mbeki before him, have been saying for years!

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Dworky, where can we read your paper presented to the first academic conference on whiteness held last week (March 19-20)?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    April 2, 2013 at 9:40 am

    http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/the-problem-with-whiteness-christi-van-der-westhuizen/

    “While discourses of white superiority may be more camouflaged (complaints about corruption or the state of education, for example), they continue to produce very real unequal relations of power and associated distribution of resources.”

    Wank, wank, wank.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Wat gaan ek met jou maak? Skaapkop!

    Jy val weer vir ‘n April Fool.

    Dink jy enigiemand op die planeet kan met sulke kak uitkom sonder tong stewig in kies?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebs

    It saddens me immensely that a supposedly “progressive” writer like Haffajee would be so scornful of the exciting field of WHITISHNESS STUDIES:

    “While the stated purpose of whiteness studies is to expose white people to the legacies of post-colonial and post-apartheid privilege which still take racial forms, in fact the field continues to place privileged people at the centre of the gaze of the academy.”

    http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/the-problem-with-whiteness-ferial-haffajee/

    P.S. Brett: There is no paper. I ended up boycotting last week’s conference. Just couldn’t take so much WHITELINESS in one room!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 2, 2013 at 10:43 am

    LOL. That was published 31 March 2013 10:01?

    Poor Christi. It must be overwhelmingly difficult to ignore what is going on in SA government as has been going on rest of Africa on the one hand and then continuing to blame it on Whiteness/Male privilege/ blah blah blah.

    I can only imagine if you are a relatively intelligent person what a tortured, schizophrenically conflicted state of mind that must produce.

  • Gwebecimele

    Peter Bruce on rumours…………………………..

    “At Eskom, strong rumour has it that CE Brian Dames will either soon resign or be fired. Labour strife and technical trouble at Medupi, the power station designed to get us out of the Red Zone, and, possibly, Kusile (Medupi’s 4,800MW twin) will do him in. And Dames is not one to bow and scrape to political power. In the rumour, he would be replaced by Transnet CEO Brian Molefe who, in turn, would be replaced by one of his divisional commanders, Siyabonga Gama.”

  • Gwebecimele

    How to eat an elephant “bit by bit”

    http://ewn.co.za/2013/04/02/Tshwane-metro-police-chief-busted

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 2, 2013 at 10:53 am

    “I would rather our white compatriots commit fully to employment equity and black economic empowerment than engaging their whiteness inside their communities.”

    Excellent point. That is why I demand that Christi van der Westhuizen, Pierre De Vos and Samantha Vice all resign with immediate effect from their privileged university jobs to make place for Black persons. It is time for them to “role up their sleeves” and make a contribution by moving to Coronation park to be with the other 1million poor whites but ever growing.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    City Press is a Sunday paper? What to do if April 1 falls on Monday?

    Ozoneblue says:
    April 2, 2013 at 10:54 am

    LOL. That was published 31 March 2013 10:01?

  • Gwebecimele

    GIVE US OUR YEARLY BAD NEWS.

    These lazy analysts need to go further and research the root cause rather than yearly repeats of this infamous news. They should analyse policy and compare with global developments.

    http://www.fin24.com/Economy/White-men-in-Gauteng-highest-earners-20130402

  • Gwebecimele

    WHERE IS THIS AA in government??

    Sunset clause!!!!!!!!

    “the white men, on average, work in the community and social services industry, (including government), are in skilled jobs, belong to a union, and are between 55 and 64 years old.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    April 2, 2013 at 11:25 am

    “WHERE IS THIS AA in government??”

    “the white men, on average, work in the community and social services industry, (including government), are in skilled jobs, belong to a union, and are between 55 and 64 years old.”

    Correct. Where are the working/lower middle class Whites in government and other sectors, when there are over 1million whites living in squatter camps.

    Totally excluded by your sickening racism?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OzoneBlue

    ” … over 1million whites living in squatter camps”

    Please give your source for this figure.

    It seems a trifle on the high side.

  • Gwebecimele

    OB

    Why you did not include sunset clause in your response?
    You are not different from these lazy analysts.
    Trying to play “bikini analysis” hide vs reveal.

  • Mike

    @Gwebecimele – Do you really think that the Transformation Policy which is the replacement for failed Affirmative Action policy is not conducted by the ANC in the same manner as their involvement the CAR.
    Clearly you subscribe to this policy of an attempt at ethnic cleansing because when last did the goverment or any parastal employ young whites in proportion to the population in any event.
    Who are the highest salary earners in KZN for eample or the EC, well they are indians and blacks my friend not whites.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    April 2, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    Answer the question gwebs – your own. Where are the Whites in working / lower middle class jobs?

    Why are they still discriminated against when your quote makes it clear that the Whites who are employed in the sectors mentioned are middle/upper class, close to retirement and only employed because of their skills.

    I see this everywhere I go, only Black people in working/lower middle class jobs. In government almost entire employment ONLY FOR BLACK people. Where is the AA on Whites, Coloureds and Indians boet?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 2, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    FF+ figures in parliament.

    When will you be satisfied MO, when it is 1.5, 2, 3 perhaps 4 million?

    Why don’t you and your fellow white liberals just ask Mngxitama to kill the fucking lot of us?

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-01-off-with-his-head-the-case-against-andile-mngxitama

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Ozoneblue

    “Why don’t you and your fellow white liberals just ask Mngxitama to kill the fucking lot of us?”

    Ozoneblue, thanks for this contribution to rational debate.

    But seriously, could you cite the FF speech, and perhaps mention where the FF got that figure from?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 2, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    This was quoted by gwebs just the other day.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Zuma-FF-Plus-MP-clash-over-poor-whites-20130320

    “Alberts later told Zuma the research he quoted was “dubious”.

    “It is basically just stated that they [whites] are okay, the census shows they’re okay. There are about a million of them living in shacks, representing about 20% of white people.”

    Alberts said BEE policies were also not benefiting other minorities like coloureds.

    “Your policies are creating new victims. Twenty to 50 years from now we will be standing there and say we will have to rectify the mistakes of the past that the ANC has created, by helping white people,” Alberts said.

    Zuma then accused Alberts of denialism.

    “If you take into account the history of racial discrimination in this country, the reality is that the majority of black people still suffer as they did many years ago,” Zuma said.

    The president said he had visited a white squatter camp in Pretoria and had helped its residents with their problems.”

    Our dear prez “helps Whites” by first of all excluding them from job opportunities – i.e. intentionally impoverishing them and then by visiting them in the squatter camps to make them feel better.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Note how our White liberals react when they themselves get threatened and insulted. But nobody gave a fuck when Mngxitama was spreading hatred against White farmers amongst the landless or when Mngxitama expressed his fantasy of a genocide on Whites – equating them to dogs.

    “[W]henever we see that little white bastard called Jared Sacks we must beat the shit out of him … ” Mngxitama, who also contributes to the M&G, said on Facebook.

    Mngxitama took exception to an article written by social activist and independent journalist Jared Sacks in the M&G on March 15 titled, Biko would not vote for Ramphele. According to GroundUp, later, in the same Facebook correspondence, Mngxitama wrote: “I know this white boy. He goes to the township, fuck up community organisations and now he is fucking with biko and bc. No! This is not a joke. He better b prepared.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-25-activist-mngxitama-in-hot-water-for-inciting-violence

    Same thing happened at UCT with the crime issue couple of years back. First Max Price accused whites of [racist] “whining about crime”, later when some UCT staff member got raped then all hell broke lose and CRIME was all of a sudden a huge problem.

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    So the leaders shall drink champagne on your behalf through their lips is finally outdone.

    Now the people shall drink god’s holy milk through their own mouths!

    The picture is a real newspaper headline. The bizarre story is about Brazilian Evangelical Pastor, Voldeci Sobrino Picanto who was allegedly arrested for convincing his followers that his penis oozed “holy milk”.

    http://zululab.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/brazilian-pastor-convinces-followers-that-his-penis-oozes-holy-milk/

    Dworky – I dunno but this oke sort of reminds me of someone around these blogs – WDYS?

    p.s. Brett – I’m not mentioning names or pointing fingers at you, but are you related to Pastor Voldeci Sobrino Picanto?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Ozoneblue

    Thanks for the cite to the debate in Parliament, but I am still curious as to where the FF got its figure re one million whites in shacks. Please note that even what appears to be a conservative website (which alleges “genocide” of whites) (quoted below), puts the figure of whites in shacks at less than one-third of the FF’s figure. How would you explain that?

    ******

    “Like Mugabe, Zuma’s ANC has been seizing land from white farmers and expelling them from their homesteads. There are now white refugee camps in South Africa with an estimated 300,000 or 7 percent of the white population living in tent cities and shacks. If any other ethnic group or race were on the receiving end of such treatment, it would be denounced as ethnic cleansing.”

    http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/white-genocide-in-south-africa/

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    Every racial group has members who are poor. I don’t see why one group’s issues should be more special than another’s (if indeed they are any different at their very core).

    The problem is actually a lack of economic growth, coupled with a destroyed education system.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Prof

    Can you give us a run-down on the SCA’s judgment in the Van Der Vyver case from last week?

    Something seems seriously amiss if one reads the media – what do you make it of that judgment?

  • Gwebecimele

    OB
    MO is right.
    Let us hope you don’t quote these figures elsewhere. Here you are amongst friends, AA/EE is to you what guns/genocide are to Brett.

    Anyone who engages you or Brett on these topics are warned.
    I see Mike wants recognition as well he is also attempting ‘bikini analysis” by shifting our foucus to KZN and EC.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zookeeper

    “Every racial group has members who are poor”

    Where did I suggest otherwise? The point is that the credibility of any cause, whether legitimate or not, is undermined by gross exaggeration, as appears to be the case here.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 2, 2013 at 13:32 pm

    Well – you are free to contact FF+ to find out were they get their figures from. I don’t know, but why would it only be a “conservative” website that are concerned about poor Whites. Do you think that our sentiment of a shared humanity means that poor Whites are less worthy of any sort of concern?

    Do you think the great revolutionaries give a hoot about the colour of poor people. These are the poor people that everybody ignore, as if they just don’t exist. They don’t have a government and various other human rights organisations looking out for their human rights. They are actively discriminated against when it comes to education/job opportunities based on the colour of their skin, why would such a concern be described as “conservative”?

  • Maggs Naidu – Towards a DUTY-FREE Cabinet! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    April 2, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    Hey Mike,

    “Who are the highest salary earners in KZN for eample or the EC, well they are indians and blacks my friend not whites.”

    It’s the humble samoosa and bunny chow that’s the secret, ne!

    p.s. You earlier warnings on Indians are being hard-done-by have been noted.

    If it wasn’t for the great conspiracy by the ANC to undermine Indians as you often point out, perhaps they in KZN would be richer than god (not that god needs much money – except perhaps when it need beer and tickets to a rugby match).

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Ozone

    I challenge you to find a study that puts the figure of white shack dwellers at over one million. The reason is cited the source putting the figure at 300,000 is to dispel the notion that it is a group ideologically hostile to whites that is prone to downplay white poverty.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Mike

    I would wager you that blacks on average in KZN earn much less than whites. (A recent study nationwide showed that whites on average earn 6X more than blacks.)

    Note that claims that the racially-based economic inequality of apartheid has been erased plays into the hands of ANC propaganda that its policies to achieve equality have been enormously successful.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 2, 2013 at 14:22 pm

    You asked my where I got that figure and I mentioned a figure used in parlaiment. Where they got it from I don’t know, perhaps a buy Solidarity Why don’t you contact them if you actually gave a fuck?

    Do you also believe it is mostly a marginal problem experienced by “white trash” and have absolutely nothing to do with any racial policies implemented by government?

    “Die studie toon duidelik aan dat wit Suid-Afrikaners meer en meer gemarginaliseer word en dat regeringsprogramme ruimte moet bied vir die ontwikkeling en ondersteuning van arm wittes,” sê Hermann.

    Die studie toon dat ʼn gesamentlike inkomste per gesin in gebiede soos Danville en Claremont in Pretoria-Wes tussen R500 en R3 000 per maand wissel. Die meerderheid van mense in dié gebied het nie skoolopleiding nie en kan selde skoolfooie of -klere bekostig. Volgens die studie is die grootste uitdagings in dié gemeenskappe hoë uitvalsyfers in skole, tiener swangerskappe, dwelmmisbruik en werkloosheid. Beurse en ander vorms van befondsing is hoofsaaklik gefokus op voorheen benadeelde gemeenskappe en die algehele persepsie is dat die regering wit mense die reg op toelaes, finansiering en vaardigheidsopleiding weier as gevolg van hulle velkleur.

    “Regeringsamptenare is self nie eers bewus van wit armoede nie en die regering doen geen moeite om wit mense by die toekoms van Suid-Afrika in te sluit nie. Wittes moet eenvoudig deel vorm van die regering se plan om armoede te verlig.”

    http://www.solidariteit-blog.co.za/van-sowat-30-000-regeringsprogramme-kry-arm-wittes-niks/

    Do you want me to take you by the hand Michael and go and show you first hand where all the poor White trash lives?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 2, 2013 at 14:29 pm

    “I would wager you that blacks on average in KZN earn much less than whites. (A recent study nationwide showed that whites on average earn 6X more than blacks.)

    Note that claims that the racially-based economic inequality of apartheid has been erased plays into the hands of ANC propaganda that its policies to achieve equality have been enormously successful.”

    So as I said before, do you suggest [but don't want to say it out loud] we turn the other 3 million middle class whites into beggars to. Take all they have and give it to 3 million Blacks. Totally destroy the White middle class and then create 3 million more Black middle class. So “on average” how much more would the 47million Black people earn more that they have now – perhaps R50?

  • Michael Osborne

    @Ozoneblue

    “do you suggest [but don't want to say it out loud] we turn the other 3 million middle class whites into beggars too”

    No, I do not suggest that, even under my breath. In fact, I have misgivings about AA, as it is applied, and BEE. Both lend themselves to corruption, do very little to help blacks in poverty and help perpetuate racial polarisations of apartheid. I have some sympathy with what I take to be your view that these programs are in fact tools of class enrichment, thinly legitimated with a discourse of “transformation.” (Fanon diagnosed exactly this malady.)

    But you do not serve your arguments well with patent exaggerations of white poverty and black economic advancement. As I said, you in fact lend credence to government’s extravagant claims of success in its battle against poverty.

  • Gwebecimele

    Many are confusing average vs. count.

    Whites will probably be higher in all provinces hence their average is 6 times natiionally.

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    Sorry man, you misunderstand – I’m actually in broad agreement with you. Just added 2 cents.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Well argued! The typical Osborne strategy to delegitimise has rebounded nicely on Michael’s head. Clearly, if the ‘one million’ figure is an exaggeration it is not your exaggeration and your use of the statistic was well-founded.

    It reminds one of the estimates SOlidariteit gave of income of white beggars – when I asked 2 inhabitants of Coronation Park what the most was they had ever made on a day one sister told me R60 and the other R80.

    Although you would not know it looking at the people in government some people still have a sense of shame. They’re not easily going to admit to strangers they’re in dire straits.

    On Wednesday I went to Rikasrus near Randfontein. The first thing that struck me was how bad the road is now, the second how the people living there had impoverished since I was last there. Every single house on every plot looked to be falling down in ruins. The plot that was being auctioned had been vacated by the previous occupant when the family was forced to leave because they could not afford the lights and water after their pensioner father died and they lost his income. (They’re probably living in a tent city now too…)

    The crux of the matter is white South Africans have very deliberately been targeted for this kind of displacement and the crimes against them have been committed under a white flag.

    Ozoneblue says:
    April 2, 2013 at 14:38 pm

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 2, 2013 at 15:02 pm

    “But you do not serve your arguments well with patent exaggerations of white poverty and black economic advancement.”

    Do you mean gross exaggerations of “black economic advancement” like this one for example? Do you also query these figures?

    “Corrective policies are said to have helped change the all-white face of business in South Africa, after black people had been exluded for more than 60 years. In the past 18 years South Africa has produced 178 black millionaires — according to their shares listed on the JSE — *and about 4-million black people are now considered middle class, living in households that earn R300,000 to R500,000 a year*. However, a third of the population, mainly black, lives below the poverty line.”

    Just remind me, how many White people including work/middle/upper class are their remaining in South Africa all together? +/- 4.2 million perhaps?

    Do you think the +2.5 million middle/upper class Whites still almost exclusively “control the economy” as JZ just claimed? or do you think, like I do, that this is a strategy to LIE to the people, to racially mobilise and manipulate the people’s vote so that Black poverty remains not the colonial crony-capitalist system but rather the White man’s fault.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    Brett is right. I heard somewhere that 256 million blacks live in poverty in Upington alone. This may be an exaggeration – but at least it is not MY exaggeration!

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozoneguy .

    Ozone is right. Last term some ANC M.P. said the 2012 matric results reflected the massive PROGRESS that had been made by the ANC in improving education. Since M.P.’s don’t generally make up stories, I of course believed him!

    Don’t believe this Ozoneguy? If you give a fuck, look it up!

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    I would say the performance before the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee today shows the ANC crapped themselves looking at Pierre’s magnificient analysis!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
  • Maggs Naidu – ! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    April 2, 2013 at 15:08 pm

    Gwebs,

    “Many are confusing average vs. count.”

    That’s a pretty confusing statement.

    The 6 x is median as I understand it. Or is it average?