The ANC majority of a joint ad hoc committee of Parliament has now taken a political decision to rubber-stamp the decision of President Kgalema Motlanthe to fire Vusi Pikoli, the National Director of Public Prosecutions (NDPP), on the basis that Pikoli was not suitably sensitive to national security concerns and was thus not a “fit and proper” person to perform his duties as NDPP as required by the NPA Act.
This is a sham decision and fortunately for Pikoli and his legal team the report by the ad hoc committee does not do a good job of hiding this.
Section 12(6) of the NPA Act makes clear that the NDPP can only be removed for one of four objectively determinable reasons, one being that he is no longer a fit and proper person to hold the office concerned. A decision by the President to fire Pikoli can therefore only be legally valid if it has been determined – looking at all the facts – that Pikoli is indeed no longer a fit and proper person. This is not a decision that can be taken on the basis of political considerations. In order to be legally valid, a clear determination has to be made on the facts and these facts must be shown to demonstrate that the NDPP is no longer a fit and proper person.
This would require the President and then Parliament (1) to define what constitutes a fit and proper person and (2) then to show that the NDPP has demonstrated through his actions that he no longer meets the criteria for a fit and proper person. A clear causal link must be established between the criteria set out in (1) and the facts that show the incumbent no longer meets those criteria. Otherwise the decision would be ultra vires and thus invalid and could be overturned by a court of law.
Unfortunately, the report utterly fails to define the criteria for a fit and proper person and thus falls at the first hurdle. It is thus my contention that the decision of the ANC majority is illegal and could very well be overturned. Apart from the breathtaking double standard of the ANC majority, who often talks about the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty but failed to even pretend to consider such niceties in this case, the report fails to do what the Act requires it to do.
Of course the term “fit and proper” is not defined in the act and there may well be some difference of opinion about what the requirements for a “fit and proper” NDPP might be. It was therefore the task of the ad hoc committee to define what it understood under this term, taking into account the provisions of the Constitution and the NPA Act, before rushing to find that the man who wants to prosecute their boss does not meet the criteria set out in this definition.
So let me assist those honorable members of Parliament and explain how they should have proceeded if they had wanted to act in a legally defensible manner.
The NPA Act must be construed in the light of the Constitution and the words and phrases in it must – if it is reasonable possible to do so – be interpreted to comply with the letter and the spirit of the Constitution. We do know that section 179(4) of the Constitution states that “[n]ational legislation must ensure that the prosecuting authority exercises its functions without fear, favour or prejudice”. We also know that in the First certification judgment the Constitutional Court found that this phrase guaranteed the independence of the NPA and its boss. We also know that section 9 of the NPA Act states that an NDPP must be a ‘fit and proper person, with due regard to his or her experience, conscientiousness and integrity to be entrusted with the responsibilities of the office concerned”.
Read together, this seems to suggest that in order to be a fit and proper person the NDPP must first be capable and at all times willing to act independently, in other words without fear, favour or prejudice. The NDPP must not buckle under political pressure and should not make decisions regarding the investigation and prosecution of individuals on other than legal considerations and the prosecutions policy. Some would argue that Bulelani Ngcuka was not a fit and proper person because he is alleged to have made a decision not to prosecute Zuma based on exactly such political considerations. No credible allegations of a similar kind have been made against Mr Pikoli, so he clearly meets this criterion.
Second, the NDPP must show the necessary conscientiousness and integrity when doing his job. He must not be lazy, spectacularly careless or act in a dishonest or criminal manner. Given the constitutional guarantee of prosecutorial independence, this cannot mean that the NDPP must always be perfectly correct or must make the correct or wise decision every single time. To interpret the section otherwise would be to give a blank cheque to the President and Parliament to interfere in individual decisions made by the NDPP and even to fire him if they disagreed with the correctness or wisdom of a particular decision he made. Such an interpretation would not be in conformity with the constitutional guarantee of independence of the NDPP.
A general and persistent failure to follow prosecutions policy agreed upon with the Minister of Justice would however meet the threshold and would allow the President to fire the NDPP. It must be remembered that the Minister must formulate such a prosecution policy in concurrence with the NDPP and that this provides the Minister with the power to fulfill his or her constitutional duty to “exercise final responsibility” over the NPA.
At present the prosecutions policy does not require the NDPP to take into account national security when making decisions to investigate or prosecute individuals. The policy might well have to be amended to include such a provision, provided that the term “national security” is defined with sufficient precision and safeguards are included in the policy to ensure that such a clause does not give the Minister or the President unconstitutionally broad powers to interfere with the work of the NDPP. Fact is, at present there is no such policy and even if it could be shown that Mr Pikoli was not sensitive enough to national security issues, legally the prosecuting policy did not require him to do so.
In any event, even if the prosecutions policy did mention national security, on the facts before us it is clear that Mr Pikoli’s actions regarding the arrest of Police Commissioner Jackie Selebi do not warrant a finding that he was insensitive to national security. This is because the President has a constitutional duty to uphold the Constitution and also to oversee national security issues. Yet the President did not mention “national security” concerns when he suspended Mr Pikoli and nor did the government argue that Mr Pikoli had not taken into account national security concerns when he requested a warrant to be issued for Mr Selebi’s arrest.
If the President, with all the facts at his disposal and privy to national intelligence briefings, did not think this was a serious enough issue to warrant Mr Pikoli’s suspension, then it clearly was not a real issue that demonstrated Mr. Pikoli lacked the conscientiousness and integrity required by the Constitution and the NPA Act. Unless, of course, the President and the government lied when it suspended Mr Pikoli and unless the government then lied about the reasons for Mr Pikoli’s suspension before the Ginwala Commission of Enquiry and provided bogus reasons for his suspension.
Surely the President must be given the benefit of the doubt on this issue – given the fact that he is privy to all the dark secrets of the country and given also the fact that we must presume that the President would not deceive the nation or the Ginwala Commission of Enquiry.
Given the above, it seems clear to me that the decision by the ANC majority on the joint ad hoc committee of Parliament is a political and not a legal decision. I contend that the decision to fire Pikoli is therefore illegal and that Parliament will be in breach of the law and the Constitution if it confirms the decision of the ANC majority on the committee. I sure as hell hope Mr Pikoli and his lawyers take this case to the Constitutional Court and that, in due course, it will be shown that Parliament demonstrated that it was neither fit nor proper when it did this political hatched job on Mr Pikoli in order to try and protect their President.
Pierre – it is interesting to me that you did not even mention the browse-mole report that was compiled and conducted with Pikoli as NDPP : some of our conspiracy theorists have a long term memory you know. Instead you prefer to attack the integrity of parliament : are you saying incompetence is only a valid reason for dismissal when it suits your political agenda ?
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20090127234142277C305306
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-07-05-will-browse-mole-nail-pikoli
Meiring was forced to resign after presenting Mandela with what was described as a “mischievous” report about an alleged plot to overthrow the government.
“The report implicated Meiring’s successor and current ANC NEC member Siphiwe Nyanda, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Ekurhuleni Metro Police boss Robert McBride and pop star Michael Jackson.”
Do you still remember when Meiring blew the cover off that evil Michael Jackson conspiracy ?
@ozoneblue
Part 1
No not the integrity of parliment but the integrity of the committee which was a farce plan and simple and a blatant Political interference. Was Illegal!!!!!
what you also seem to lack to understand even with the browse mole report only the ANC was hammering on about it and using it as there excuse to carry weight to fire Pikoli where as all the other parties had no problem with it?? explain that?
The browse mole report “OPEN YOUR EYES”
“The conclusion reached as a result of the present browse, is that there are strong indications that former Deputy President Jacob Zuma’s presidential ambitions are fuelled and sustained by a conspiracy playing out both inside South Africa and on the African continental stage.
Inside South Africa, as is well known, groupings, like the South African Communist Party, the ANC Youth League, the SACP’s Youth League and Cosatu, seemingly disaffected from the presidency of Thabo Mbeki, have largely thrown in their lot with the former Deputy President; along with these there exist elements within the Security and Intelligence Services that appear to be considering the subversion of the apparatus of State in support of a Zuma presidency
Um has this not happend? I remember Malema shouting that Mbeki must go?? Zuma camp toppling the Mbeki regime? Cope is born. Zuma shouting he has dirt on people??
ozoneblue, I am not sure how the Pikoli’s treatment of the Browse Mole report addresses my arguments in any way and how it can justify a finding that he is no longer fit and proper to be head of NDPP. Pikoli did not draft the report. He took action to ensure it did not become an official report of the NPA. He referred the matter to the security services. In any case, even if he made mistakes in his handling of the report, this does not show he is not fit and proper as the test is a bit higher than that. One “mistake” (if it was that) cannot justify his firing.
Part 2 ozone blue over and above what pierre has said
He instructed Adv McCarthy that the report had no legal status, expressing his disapproval in the strongest terms. He then met with the Directors Generals of SASS and NIA, providing them with copies of the report.
what about Mabandla?
Mabandla did not give evidence before the inquiry
Mabandla’s order that Pikoli not proceed with the prosecution of Selebi, so that she could get more information on the matter, was a criminal instruction.
Its amazing how the ANC is getting what it wants to Zuma…
Im glade this is going to go to court
Well argued post. PdV I anticipate an application by Pikoli to the High Court after his dismissal, how would this work? Is parliament’s function in the Pikoli matter an administrative action in terms of PAJA or common law?
Pierre De Vos @ 11:13 am
1. The Scorpions were busy with illegal “intelligence gathering” work that they were prohibited to do in terms of section 28 of NPA Act, Act 32.
2. The Scorpions used questionable sources of information including former elements of the security apparatus of Apartheid regime.
3. Pikoli failed to instruct his subordinates to provide full cooperation in the subsequent JSCI investigation.
4. He failed to institute disciplinary actions against any of those subordinates implicated in the above activities, including but not limited to Leonard McCarthy.
At least four good reasons why Pikoli should have been fired a long time ago.
chris mcdaniel @ 11:00 am
“Inside South Africa, as is well known, groupings, like the South African Communist Party, the ANC Youth League, the SACP’s Youth League and Cosatu, seemingly disaffected from the presidency of Thabo Mbeki, have largely thrown in their lot with the former Deputy President”
Thank you Chris for confirming what I have been saying all along. The state security apparatus, including the NPA, have been and is probably still being abused to discredit those “left-leaning” enemies of the state. If that makes me a conspiracy theorist then let it be so.
Ozoneblue with regards to your answer to Pierre isnt it up to the president job to do disciplinary actions against McCarthy??
as for your reply back on my post no you getting it wrong again please re read the first para on zuma,
ozoneblue // Feb 12, 2009 at 10:21 am
Pierre – it is interesting to me that you did not even mention the browse-mole report that was compiled and conducted with Pikoli as NDPP : some of our conspiracy theorists have a long term memory you know. Instead you prefer to attack the integrity of parliament : are you saying incompetence is only a valid reason for dismissal when it suits your political agenda ?
PDV’s article deals with facts and the law not with conspiracies. Lets compare apples with apples!
Well, maybe there may will be guidance from the approach taken by the Court in INCORPORATED LAW SOCIETY, TRANSVAAL v MANDELA
[1954] 3 All SA 173 (T).
If it smells like shit it generally is shit and this famous report and its findings are pretty pungent. If the matter had been approached in a legal manner, almost an impossibility I would argue in this case, then that is exactly how the committee should have proceeded.
The ANC majority met in their study group and agreed on the findings and presented it as a fait accompli to the opposition minority. Even among the ANC, the Zites like Monareng didnt even want to pay lip service to the oppositions views, while the other camp were prepared to at least prepare a comprehensive report reflecting the opposing views.Not that they were ever going to find against the Prez after Luthuli House made its views known.
As PdeV points out, all they have done is play into Pikoli’s hands, so well done to them, Can’t wait for the SCA to show them the error of their sycophantic fraudulent ways…
whats interesting now with pikoli taking this to the High Court and I agree I hope he takes it up to the CC is we going to have 3 Presidents going to court this year this is truly remarkable!
Enough nonsense on the mole report thats not why he was suspended in the first place its actaully baseless and meaningless
heres the problem:
The following principles govern national security in the Republic:
a. National security must reflect the resolve of South Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better life.
b. *1 The resolve to live in peace and harmony precludes any South African citizen from participating in armed conflict, nationally or internationally, except as provided for in terms of the Constitution or national legislation.
c. National security must be pursued in compliance with the law, including international law.
d. National security is subject to the authority of Parliament and the national executive.”
Section 198 is so wide as to be meaningless in the context of this issue.
whats the DANGER??
the danger is this perception is everything, Section 198 is so wide in its meaning that anyone can be hang up to dry and why a ginwala was brought in and stated that there is a case disciplinary measures against pikoli, as things stand, but dismissal is not one of them. For the president o ignore these is extremely dangerous
In terms of the prosecutors and police of South Africa it suggests that they cannot proceed without fear or favour because in the event of their proceeding against the wrong party they will be sacked. Moreover that the safeguards provided by legislation are useless against an executive who has decided your fate.
chris mcdaniel @ 1:18 pm
” Enough nonsense on the mole report thats not why he was suspended in the first place its actaully baseless and meaningless”
LOL. I guess if John Ascroft was found running a DG’s offices that was conducting espionage activities against those left-leaning elements in the Democratic Party no one would have squeaked and it would all have come to naught.
Good post Prof,
Did you expect any better? That would have been too gullible of you…
ozoneblue // Feb 12, 2009 at 1:51 pm
shame man argue whats going on in your own country as you already seem to lack understanding of this situation here than trying to be a smart ass on what happens in the US
Prof – My biggest concern is their use of “national security” to justify this.
If that is going to be the “test” then you might as well do away with giving reasons and insert a new paragraph :
“Notwithstanding anything contained in law from whatever source and wherever it may be found, should the ruling party not like your face, start packing…”
Parliament is simply a monumental waste of money whilst the ANC holds 50%+. Zero ethics and zero accountability for anyone.
worth reading from ID and IFP on pikoli matter
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=117464&sn=Detail
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=117460&sn=Detail
Ozoneblue since you think PIkoli is justifyed to be fired but bearing in mind he is a fit and proper person and the argument by you and the ANC is scant regards to national security….Ill make you an offer??? If you can find me any evidence of national security being BREACHED to justify the firing of Pikoli I will apologies and offer my full respect towards you as a gentlemen and scholar
Vusi Pikoli was fired by a show of hands.
No, really. I’m not making that up.
Are these guys serious? I mean it’s nearly Valentine’s Day, not April Fool’s Day.
Well there we go Pikoli is now officially fired
http://www.buanews.gov.za/news/09/09021216151001
Ozoneblue and Zuma campers you can know go ahead and put in your puppet.
chris mcdaniel @ 4:07 pm
“If you can find me any evidence of national security being BREACHED”
Absolutely no problem there – as I have pointed out before – in Pikoli’s own words:
“I told him that whoever in the DSO was involved in this report clearly had contact with old apartheid structures of intelligence, particularly Military Intelligence. I told Mr McCarthy that this document shall enjoy no status in the DSO and that there must be no further working on the report.”
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-07-05-will-browse-mole-nail-pikoli
The DSO is/was a one of the units of the NPA and therefore the buck stops at the NDPP.
Good post Prof – just one typing error: “It must be remembered that the Minister must formulate such a prosecution policy in concurrence with the Minister …” Is it perhaps the NDPP who must formulate the policy in concurrence with the Minister?
That aside though, the only ‘dark secrets of the country’ that the President (at that time Mbeki) might have known about so that Pikoli’s actions could amount to ‘insensitivity’ to issues of national security, is that the governing party itself (including probably the President himself and other members of the Cabinet) was involved in some of the dark dealings of Selebi and his ilk (circle of crooked friends).
O3blue – the things you mention are all just part of speculation by conspiracy theorists, and none of those issues have been mentioned by the President before he suspended Pikoli; none of those things were investigated by the Ginwala Commission; none of those things were in the report on which Mothlanthe took his decision to recommend his firing; none of those things were considered by the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee (unless it was done in secret by the majority of ANC members who completely ignored the minority in this whole thing); none of those things have been placed before Parliament so as to justify Pikoli’s firing. The most basic thing that needs be considered before anyone is fired is the audi alteram partem principle. In other words, the person being accused of something justifying his dismissal, must be made aware of the EXACT nature of the accusations leveled against him so that he can properly defend himself; he has a right to face his accusers and to hear and test their side of the story (here the President and Minister did not even testify); and he must have the opprtunity to put his side of the story to the person or body firing him before he is fired, which should be judiciously considered before a final decision is taken. If that does not happen, then due process was not followed and the whole process was illegal and unconstitutional. Furthermore, as this article rightly points out, even had due process been followed, there can be no rational connection between the findings and the decision to fire Pikoli.
Anonymouse @ 5:11 pm
“none of those things were considered by the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee (unless it was done in secret by the majority of ANC members who completely ignored the minority in this whole thing); none of those things have been placed before Parliament so as to justify Pikoli’s firing.”
Perhaps one of us two suffer from a serious reading disability. But let me quote then extensively from the link provided by Pierre at http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71627?oid=117364&sn=Detail
“Browse Mole Report.
Given the politically explosive nature of the Browse Mole Report, ANC members feel that it is not credible that Adv Pikoli had filed the March 2006 preliminary report away on the advice of the Head of Directorate of Special Operations that it is work in progress, without carefully considering it. ANC members find it difficult to believe that Adv Pikoli did not appreciate the significance of the report or that it fell outside the legal mandate of the DSO. ANC members feel that he should have acted immediately to prevent the report from being finalised, and that his failure to do so amounted to a dereliction of duty. Had he done so then, he could have limited the damage caused by this intelligence gathering exercise. He should also have informed the Minister then and not when he received the final report. By allowing the DSO to finalise the report over 3 months instead of handing the draft over to NIA and SASS, he in effect commissioned the final Browse Mole Report. The Committee did not receive a clear answer as to how Adv Pikoli’s copy of the preliminary report got lost and why another copy of it could not be reproduced from the computer on which it was typed and given to the Ginwala Enquiry as requested. Also, it suggests negligence on the part of Adv Pikoli that he could lose such a serious report without any credible explanation. ANC members also draw attention to the Special Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence on the Special ‘Browse’ Mole Consolidated Report, in particular to its recommendations and conclusions:
“The JSCI would like to make the following recommendations:
1. The Executive Authority must take appropriate action against the Head of the DSO and all officials who were involved in the production of the Browse Mole Report;
2. The Government must direct the DSO to stop their intelligence gathering operations with immediate effect;
3. NIA must expedite the vetting of DSO officials, prioritising those who are exposed to sensitive state information such as the DSO senior special investigators;
4. Government must expedite the regulation of private intelligence gathering activities and put measures in place that will reduce the risk of being exposed to information peddlers; and
5. That the Government must conduct a comprehensive review of the Directorate of Special Investigations. Serious and urgent attention must be given to the manner to which the DSO is presently operating.
Conclusions
The JSCI has come to the conclusion that the activities of the DSO in relation to the production of the Browse Mole Report were very dangerous and against our National interest. The contents of the Browse Mole Report are extremely inflammatory and divisive. It has the potential of throwing our new democracy into chaos.
The DSO was involved in several illegal activities including intelligence gathering without a legal mandate, lack of appropriate secutity clearance for DSO officials, non-compliance with Minimum Information Security Standard (MISS), and unauthorised interaction with private intelligence companies and Foreign Intelligence Services. Such illegal and dangerous activities should be rooted out of our state institutions.
Arising out of the Browse Mole Report investigation, the Task Team is still busy with further investigations which are at a sensitive stage and may lead to the arrest and prosecution of certain individuals.”
those hands were also to imdicate various other things especially loyalty. I wonder how many hands you will see if you ask people if they think SA is going to become another bananna republic on this continent, then again it probably depends who you ask the Westerners or the locals, who it concerns.
O3blue – You precisely make my point. Why does the terminology “ANC members feel …”; “ANC members find …”; “ANC members feel …” feature so prominently in the rundown you quoted before, without really having afforded the members of minority parties the opportunity to have their say in the matter, before saying “The JSCI would like to make the following recommendations: …” In fact, these things have been in the draft report that has been criticized by members of minority parties, because it has neither been debated nor voted on, and then the recommendations were kept part of the draft and the ANC members refused to have the minority include its own version of what their ‘feelings’ and ‘findings’ were. This means that these allegations have not properly been investigated or considered, and that Pikoli had not been afforded a proper opportunity to test those things. Shit man, are you deliberately being obtuse here?
In any case – those allegations were not part of the accusations that made Mbeki suspend him.
Anonymouse @t 5:50 pm
But it was definitely requested that the Ginwala commission look at the Browse-Mole report and guess what – the age old excuse that the dog ate his homework:
“The Committee did not receive a clear answer as to how Adv Pikoli’s copy of the preliminary report got lost and why another copy of it could not be reproduced from the computer on which it was typed and given to the Ginwala Enquiry as requested. Also, it suggests negligence on the part of Adv Pikoli that he could lose such a serious report without any credible explanation”
Oh – and what did the opposition parties have to say about that:
“7.5. Browse Mole Report: The opposition parties were satisfied with the explanation given by Adv Pikoli on the Browse Mole Report.”
Nelson Mandela and Jacob Zuma also had contact with the Apartheid intelligence structures. Just a thought.
Jacob Zuma IS conducting a revolution to ensure that he does not go on trial. That’s what all his delaying tactics are for. That’s why the ANC youth league and COSATU threaten the country and the judiciary with instability should Zuma not become the next president.
National security as “the resolve of South Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better life” is so vaguely defined. It seems that it has more to do with public sentiment than contact with spies. Viewed in this light, Mbeki should’ve been fired a long time ago because his quiet diplomacy did not sit well with the public resolve – hence, it was a threat to national security.
Similarly, Pikoli should not be fired because the national resolve is unequivocally that he should be kept in his position.
Similarly, the DSO should not have been disbanded because their incorporation into the police force is a threat to national security, also being against the resolve of the vast majority of South Africans to live in peace and harmony, etc.
Similarly, president Motlanthe is acting against national security when he refuses to commission and investigation into the arms deal and arrogantly enough suggests that the public should come forward with information. What a joke.
There is no valid reason to suspend a man who was doing his job and doing it well. There is no valid reason to disband an organisation that was performing its duties well. The only rational reasons for these immoral actions would be if they were doing their jobs too well. Clearly, the ANC is not even trying very hard to cover up corruption within its ranks. They’re merely rubber stamping dodgy party decisions and squashing any kind of investigation that could implicate anyone within their ranks.
I’d say that I hope Pikoli and his legal team takes the ANC to the cleaners, but it’s only inevitable that they would pay with OUR tax money.
O3blue – From the back forward – para 7.5 that you quote was the ANC members’ version of what the opposition parties believed, because the ANC majority refused to grant the opposition parties the opportunity to formulate and present their own version of their finding. Haven’t you been watching the proceedings, or the TV reports and newspaper reports on this issue?
The thing about the ‘dog having ate his homework’ – Hell man, if the report was given to the Ginwala Commission as suggested by the Committee in that quote, then it could have gotten that report from the Ginwala Commission. It became a public document when it was so presented, if it was, and Pikoli’s losing it (probably because of a computer hardware crash) has got f*ck-all to do with his being insensitive to national security. Thing is, however, that the Browse Mole Report was not part of the Ginwala Commission’s brief issued by Thabo Mbeki in the first place. It only became mentioned there because the representatives and (second-hand) witnesses for the Government could not come up with a reasonable explanation as to why Pikoli was suspended in the first place. And, the Ginwala Commission did not as a result of the whole Browse Mole thing (talking about a mole’s heap being turned into a mountain!) find that Pikoli was unfit to serve as NDPP. That was an invention of the ANC post Polokwane – no doubt because, firstly, he was the one who had the audacity to reinstate prosecution against Jacob Zuma (by the way, the whole Browse Mole thing was about Zuma’s funding, wasn’t it?); and, secondly, because his prosecuting Selebi (which directly led to his suspension by Mbeki) might have the result that many top ANC members (previous and current) are exposed for participating in and benefiting from gangsterism and racketeering activities. You see, even a mentally retard would sense that, by firing Pikoli, the ANC wants to appoint a new NDPP (probably a disciplined ANC cadre), who would then withdraw the cases against Zuma and Selebi – while the fat cats, in their well protected ivory towers (and blue light brigade cavalcades), remain elevated above the law and keep on keeping the populace in the dark and feeding them shit – like mushrooms.
Didn’t you follow the whole debate on national security being the last refuge of scoundrells?
Friend, I hope that wasn’t a subtle division along race lines – I’m white, but I’m definitely a local.
Is anybody actually suprised? Did anybody actually expect anything different? This is how the ANC works – nobody dares think for themselves – they get orders from the top, and it gets implemented all the way down, no questions asked – after all, everybody knows that it’s blind loyalty, not moral, ethical and intellectual status, that gets rewarded in the ANC.
Prof, you talk about Pikoli being a ‘fit and proper person.’ I find it highly ironic that the committee that was tasked with doing this was headed by a man who was convicted of bribery, and investigated by the unit Pikoli used to head. If that’s what the ANC considers a ‘fit and proper’ person to head a committee like that, it’s not surprising that they couldn’t wrap their very small brains around the legal concept of the same.
The opposition parties requested to be able to submit a minority report, which was denied. Seriously? I’m speechless…how the hell does the ANC get away with such blatant disregard for every person in the country who is not a supporter (and then even some who are supporters)?!
Oupa was quoted as saying that Pikoli should be fired, because “he messed up”, and then referenced the Browse Mole report as a specific in this regard. Again, seriously? He should be fired because…he “messed up”? There’s a clear and concise piece of logical reasoning by one of the ANC’s loyal cadres…that definitely settles the matter. Wtf? Do you think next time Julius Maleman “messes up” he’s going to get the boot? I hope so…but sadly, no, he won’t. Clearly this new term that enters our official lexicon means “to take action against people whom the ANC does not wish you to take action against.”
Ozone, you definitely put in a good effort, but the fact that you think that this is in any way defensible or explainable outside of the general perception that Pikoli was axed because he pissed off the ANC, then you are completely deluded…which, come to think of it, is consistent with the general ANC population in government.
Anonymouse @ 7:28 pm
“Browse Mole thing (talking about a mole’s heap being turned into a mountain!)”
You are absolutely incredible. The NPA abuses its powers, the constitution not to mention the public confidence by becoming illegally involved in espionage against political groups , relying on Apartheid security apparatus, the NDPP concedes that the “(DSO )… clearly had contact with old apartheid structures of intelligence, particularly Military Intelligence” which suggest that he has absolutely now idea what is going on in his organization, not only that, but he does nothing about it?
You call that making a “mole turn into a mountain”. Well – I’m sorry my friend I strongly disagree. Because as PdV puts is : even in relation to Hlope : “the NDPP must show the necessary conscientiousness and integrity when doing his job” – not only the NDPP, but also the NPA and by extension the DSO. I, and many others like me, have no confidence whatsoever in anything the Scorpions or the NPA came up with if they are infiltrated and working in cahoots with Apartheid agents.
O3blue – “The NPA abuses its powers, the constitution not to mention the public confidence by becoming illegally involved in espionage against political groups , relying on Apartheid security apparatus, the NDPP concedes that the “(DSO )… clearly had contact with old apartheid structures of intelligence, particularly Military Intelligence” which suggest that he has absolutely now idea what is going on in his organization, not only that, but he does nothing about it? ”
Well, that is only your (“ANC jaundiced” – Yellow shining through) opinion, and it appears dellusional and devoid of any reason seeking to tie the actions (or inactions) of the individual concerned (Pikoli) to the actual consequences (if there were any) of his actions to his ‘masters’ (typical ‘conspiracy theory’). If you don’t have any confidence whatsoever in the Scorpions or the NPA for anything they have come up “if they are infiltrated and working in cahoots with Apartheid agents”, you are probably one of those who reason that, “Corruption is good, because it is done in reaction to apartheid!”
The Big Slipper – I cannot but agree with your take on the whole issue. Keep it up.
Anonymouse @ 8:39 pm
I’m sorry whatever you are trying to say there makes zero sense. Pikoli was not just “an individual: – he was the NDPP, head of the NPA and thus the indirect head of the DSO.
I don’t think any of us would want to undergo the scrutiny that Pikoli was put under to determine if he was fit and proper. Ginwala found him to be fit and proper, and the only dirt a determined ANC could dig up revolved around some delay in handling a report, some greyness in the boundries that some of his staff acted under, and a patently false and vague accusation about national security interests. This is a pass with flying colours if you ask me – how would any of us fare under a performance assesment of this intensity??
Any way the ANC tries to spin this, Pikoli’s firing is bullshit, much like the dismantling of the scorpions. We can only wonder as to the level of corruption and crime that the ANC is trying to protect itself from, and I am beginning to believe that Mouse in correct is thinking that Selebi had to be protected to prevent further high level incriminations.
Lets get these crooks out of power ASAP.
Thanks Peter – I agree with your take on the superficiality of the Committee’s grope in the dark as well. A Commission, appointed by the President, with a handpicked Commissioner that would probably be partisan to the cause of the President (and the ANC), exonerates Pikoli, but the ANC hound-dogs in the (current) executive and parliament are not satisfied and pushes for his discharge regardless, and then makes use of flimsy exuses to do so. Only someone with a very low IQ would think that the Presidency and Parliament did the right thing, legally and democratically speaking.
@Ozoneblue
You seem to excape the FACT that any disciplinary on the DSO comes from the president NOT the head of the NPA. and the BUCK does not stop at the NPA!
ozoneblue // Feb 12, 2009 at 5:10 pm
That is not evidence PLEASE try again. Browse Mole Report to be potentialy explosive is not evidence of BREACHED security. THE BROWSE MOLE REPORT IS NOT EVIDENCE OF BREACHED SECURITY. LACK OF CONSIDERATION TOWARDS SECURITY IS NOT BREACHED SECURITY.
Please provide me proof? why cant you?
ozoneblue // Feb 12, 2009 at 8:01 pm
This sickens me I vomit at this.
Explain how the DSO had a CONVECTION rate of 90% over 2000 arrest. 2000 let me repeat that 2000, THATS CASES WHERE DRUGS HAVE BEEN TAKEN OF THE STREETS R700 million and R400 million in two sep-arate cases in Johannesburg.
OZONEBLUE YOU STUPID LITTLE BOY THATS R700 Million of drugs off the streets
> infiltrated Pagad and stopped a terror campaign in Cape Town REMEMBER BOMBINGS THAT HAPPENED IN CAPETOWN??
They have arrested and prosecuted gangsters and assisted in the discovery of arms caches.
BUT no They acted illegaly so lets get rid of them and have a UNIte called the BLUE brigade. YEs thats a smart idea cos everyone in government needs a body guard, cos South Africa is so safe?? OH whats that….I see a zuma VIP unit car kills pedestrian.
YES THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE LETS GET RID OF A CRIME FIGHTING UNITE THAT SIMPLY EXCELLED IN FIGHTING CRIME and lets create a unit that kills people LOVELY!!
But its cool Ozoneblue your little action action figure Zuma will become president. charges will be dropped and you can put in your puppet in the NPA and drag south africa back to the stone age. Well done! Here I thought Bush was bad, oh well atleast he had an education.
Sorry I forgot Pikoli…well lets just say ANC cant seem to stop embarrassing itself. What has happend to the Mighty ANC? Proud Strong Humble?
Has anyone picked up the Mail & Guardian this morning? Explosive!!!
Anonymouse // Feb 12, 2009 at 8:39 pm
lol well to be honest Ozoneblue did say corruption is good because his reasoning was they “struggle heros” grew up with that and thats all they knew how to survive in Vietnam with AK47′s that they are justified to carry on with corruption, so its good corruption because apartheid still exists and the white man and me being from america to re colonise south africa with my freind Bush and John Ascroft to bring satanic capitalsim into his home
Its all a big conspiracy im sure he lies in bed everynight with his eyes twitching clutching his communistic bible: they coming to get me…
Khosi – Are you talking about the Carl Niehaus thing?
chris mcdaniel @ 9:03 am
I said nothing of that sort of course but I have noted the lack of any coherent responses to the very valid points I have made on this thread. Hey, but feel free to distract from the subject by indulging in your usual irrational and unwarranted personal attacks.
Khosi
well that is a shocker atleast he seems to be the only one who has the guts to admit to fraud and not play “im innocent until proven guilty”
I must admit I respect for that, very brave of him.
Anonamouse, thanks, I fixed the typo.
ozoneblue // Feb 13, 2009 at 9:14 am
its waiting moderation my man
This article in The Sowetan seems to take the same line I take on this Blog: http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=936484
Mouse,
Its the only thing in there, really!!!
chris mcdaniel @ 8:45 am
Shouting at me by typing in uppercase doesn’t add any value to your unmotivated assertions although it does make you come over like a stupid dingbat.
Khosi – Yes. But I agree with Chris. At least he is honest (lol) enough to admit his guilt, unlike other top ANC cadres i know of.
Pierre De Vos @ 9:19 am
Good article Pierre – as the author put it:
“The independence of the National Prosecuting Authority is one of the cornerstones of our justice system.’
Therefore it can not be seen to be in collusion with and infiltrated by Apartheid era security agents and foreign security agencies, without oversight and apparently totally out of control. Agencies who for decades fought democracy hand-and -teeth and in the most brutal fashion that were involved in the continuous production of propaganda that had the general public believe that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.
Now the ANC is right back into DENIAL
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2469355,00.html
@Anonymouse
My concern is not Carl Niehaus’s admission of guilt. But the fact that the ANC made him its spokesperson without thinking much about his past. Now surely, Niehaus’s departure from politics was not caused, as insinuated, by Mbeki’s dislike of him. Mbeki must have seen something wrong with this man (Niehaus) that he chose to create distance between the ANC and him(Niehaus).
Today, we have egg on our faces because of the decision that was taken to appoint this alleged fraudster and high class beggar as our spokesperson.
This is an embarrasment!!
Khosi – I agree – an emabarrasment it is – same with Zuma (who is also just a ‘high class beggar’ taking into account those large interest free loans he got from Shaik and others) – in his case however, he has been appointed, not as spokesperson, but as leader!
ozoneblue // Feb 13, 2009 at 9:33 am
frankly dont really care what you think, you ignore the obvious and i find you to be to much of a smart ass, stick to the facts that Pierre, myself and Mouse and everyone else who seems to disagree with you one track why of thinking the DSO was the best thing that happened to south africa
“allegidly putting security at risk” is not a breach of security nor is it proof that security was at risk…I asked you to provide me evidence actual facts but you simply can not because there is none.
Let me brake it down for you so you can understand.
Section 198 of the constitution on National security is baseless in this argument. Malema shouting kill for Zuma would then be regarded as national security at risk. Zuma singing bring me my machine gun is a national security risk…cos this incites fear
This is why a commission was put into place to investigate Pikoli but the President ignored the findings? that is extremely dangerous to do.
the mole report which you hold as the holy grail of Pikoli to be fired is utter nonsense
The person responsiable was adv McCarthy who the president must disappline
DSO instituted an inquiry or considered a prosecution, used private intelligence companies, caused and condoned the leaking of the
report, failed to co-operate with the task team and acted illegally was an incorrect conclusion.
Browse’ Mole Consolidated Report
but then you also seem to forget the Khampepe Report and that its findings was that the DSO was an effective crime fighting unit that should stay under the NPA but that was ignored
July 2006
Browse Mole Report given to DGs’ NIA and SASS by Pikoli
2007
Is leaked to media
Some how pikoli gets blamed for this?
leaked document originated from the senior special investigator, Mr Ivor Powell
In the browse mole report
exist elements within the Security and Intelligence Services that appear to be considering the subversion of the apparatus of State in support of a Zuma presidency
what astounds me Ozoneblue is you seem to forget who the NEC are and what there backgrounds are both on Zuma and Mbeki.
No wonder Niehaus was so keen a spokesperson to call for the NPA to abandon its prosecution against Zuma.
I see now that Pikoli turns to govenment for help to fit the bill for his legal challenge
lol guess who has to approve it?
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=6&art_id=vn20090213023615676C906471
chris mcdaniel @ 10:42 am
“frankly dont really care what you think, you ignore the obvious and i find you to be to much of a smart ass, stick to the facts that Pierre, myself and Mouse and everyone else who seems to disagree with you one track why of thinking the DSO was the best thing that happened to south africa”
I have stated the facts from the report very clearly. If you and Pierre wants to sweep the facts , especially as far as the obvious security implications of the Browse-Mole report, under the carpet so let it be. I can fully understand why you and a minority section in South Africa have no qualms with the DSO’s close links with Apartheid security apparatus, and why to you it doesn’t matter that the NPA is abused for political purposes. As I have said on many occasions, these under-handed “cold war” tactics might suit you right now : but what are you going to do when the political tide has turned and “your side” gets targeted.
I guess we already see the symptoms of that. And we already see a feverish hysteria with these wild allegations about how the new president is allegedly seeking to appoint a “political pony” to appoint as the new NDPP. Well – guess what : just yesterday you argued vehemently that it is the president’s prerogative and constitutional duty to do so. We also see how a “constitutional expert” calls our democratically elected parliament neither fit or proper ? Perhaps he doesn’t want our country to be governed through democratic processes -perhaps he would much rather see us governed by those “old apartheid structures of intelligence, particularly Military Intelligence” as Pikolo put it.
Ozoneblue
No you have stated your conspiracy theories very clearly not facts.
um i thought it was the ANC that created the DSO? so why create something that will have a link to apartheid? but yet you still can answer this a convection rate of 90% but yet your the one sweeping it under the carpert
“especially as far as the obvious security implications of the Browse-Mole report”
but thats a far cry from breach of security dont you think?
Yes the NPA is abused by both Mbeki and Zuma, Mbeki on selebi and zuma against his corruption trial.
I asked you to have a look at your NEC memebrs esp No 21, have you done that yet?
“As I have said on many occasions, these under-handed “cold war” tactics might suit you right now : but what are you going to do when the political tide has turned and “your side” gets targeted.”
you r seriuosly on drugs arent you? i smell paranioa with you.
Lets wait and see about the political pony
“I can fully understand why you and a minority section in South Africa have no qualms with the DSO’s close links with Apartheid security apparatus, and why to you it doesn’t matter that the NPA is abused for political purposes”
You seem to forget im not from this country and i actually find that to be a rather racist undertone…by the way i believe cope and all other political parties want to reinstate the DSO under the NPA.
Actually on that why you think the “minorities” have no qualms with the DSO’s close links with Apartheid security apparatus – please explain that to me? clearly your refering it to white people so explain it? and please explain to me what century or decade you living in?
chris mcdaniel @ 12:21 pm
You see this is why it is difficult to argue with you. You call me a conspiracy theorist in defense of Pikoli , but then I quoted for you in no uncertain terms:
“Pikoli testified on Thursday that he had a “gut feel” that Browse Mole was going to “cause trouble”. He “filed” the preliminary version in March 2006 and was “angry” when he saw the concluded report in July 2006.
“I thought that if there was a time Mr McCarthy was going to leave the DSO [the Scorpions] it was going to be then. I told him that not a single member of the DSO has the capacity to obtain the information in the report.
“I told him that whoever in the DSO was involved in this report clearly had contact with old apartheid structures of intelligence, particularly Military Intelligence. I told Mr McCarthy that this document shall enjoy no status in the DSO and that there must be no further working on the report.”"
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-07-05-will-browse-mole-nail-pikoli
Now is it me or Pikoli who is the “conspiracy theorist” ?
BTW – it is not the final report that was to be submitted to the the Ginwala Inquiry – it was the preliminary report that one must assume either through negligence or incompetence “disappeared” from his computer. Something that by the way for those of us who know borders on almost criminal neglect in terms of the MISS act.
The ANC apparently knew of CN’s dubious financial and fraudulent past but still hired him as a spokesperson. VP is found to be fit and proper person of the highest calibre but gets fired by the same party! The list goes on.
Isnt the ANC looking more and more farcical as the days go by. Apparently and some top ANC cadres all are not happy at the VP debacle – I just wish these cowards would go on record and become the potential vocal majority in the party instead of letting the noisy and corrupt Zites trash our country’s institutions…
You see this is why it is difficult to argue with you, well it will be if you keep with the nonsense and Your “minority” statements doesnt help
“You call me a conspiracy theorist in defense of Pikoli”
You said I could in here lol
ozoneblue // Feb 12, 2009 at 12:01 pm
I still trying to make my mind up if you really are thick ( no offense) or you really dont understand whats going on between Pikoli the ad hoc committee and the DSO and esp the Ginwala report.
simply answer yes or no
Did the report find Pikoli to be Fit and Proper a man of integrity? yes or no?
Did Pikoli say to McCarthy they have no mandate over the Mole report and the report is not legal? yes or no? hell you even stated what pikoli said
Did Pikoli hand over the report to the DGs’ NIA and SASS? yes or no
Who leaked the report?
Pikoli yes or no? would that person be more of a security risk then for leaking the report? yes or no?
so can we say that Pikoli acted with reasonable care then to “a potentially security risk”? yes or no?
“Now is it me or Pikoli who is the “conspiracy theorist”
No you still are as I believe the findings on pikoli is a fit a proper person not a conspirasist. as the jury is still out on the findings of you. I make no bones about me supporting PIkoli, i think he is a hero standing up for what is right and just. Your just to polluted to see that.
THis are all alleged by the government that Pikoli mis handled the Browse mole report who did the ginwala report find pikoli’s “Competence not in question”?
I had no idea that a preliminary report disappeared off of a computer is a criminal neglect against the MISS ACT? Since this wasnt classified any more as the browse mole report was already released in the public domain.
your avoiding all of my questions to you please look up the NEC memembers I want to point something out to you, Now ive been kind enought o answer yours so please answer me the NEC’s esp with your racist undertone
What about all the other findings in the Ginwala report?
NEC back grounds? here is a hint its called intellegence
find me evidence of security being breached?
answer my question on your comment on Minorities?
Reading the article below, I could not help thinking about the Shaik trial. It seems Niehaus and Zuma have similar lifestyles.
I can only agree with Khosi, Mbeki did what he did not out of hatred, but it has something to do with a little thing called ethics.
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-02-13-tearful-niehaus-admits-fraud
chris mcdaniel @ t 1:29 pm
“Did the report find Pikoli to be Fit and Proper a man of integrity? yes or no?”
Assuming you mean the Ginwala report it also found that the president and the minister of justice had not tried to influence or interfere with the NDPP. Given the circumstantial evidence as even PdV has quite correctly argued on several occasions and Pikoli’s own evidence that his highly unlikely and imo the Ginwala report is nothing but a cover up and lacks any credibility. You either except the credibility of the report or you reject it – you can’t have it both ways. End of story.
Ozoneblue:
Our president does not get elected democratically. Our leading party gets elected democratically. We as the people don’t vote for our president.
Speaking of the cold war, how many ANC guys are there who were part of the USSR intelligence apparatus? Or maybe the Cuba intelligence apparatus? Does this constitute a breach of national security?
By the way, spot the apartheid intelligence apparatus in this list of information peddlers involved with the Browse Mole Report:
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2007-08-03-inside-the-browse-mole-row
I can count a few ANC guys. A few British intelligence guys. A former MI who helped South Africa prevent a coup in Equatorial Guinea. More ANC veterans..
So the ANC were part of apartheid intelligence apparatus? Now there’s a breach of national security.
Garg Unzola @ 2:47 pm
“But discussions with informed intelligence sources and documents in the Mail & Guardian’s possession make it clear that much of the evidence it details was acquired from informants state agencies have been happy to rely on for information.”
I must admit the fact that the M&G claims they have documents in their possession indicating some of the DSO’s sources while that is supposed to be top secret information does a lot to reinforce the argument that the DSO, the NPA and Pikoli had indeed breached national security. Most likely, the M&G got that info from Ivor Powell, after all he worked for M&G before he moved to the DSO and was the one implicated in leaking the Browse Mole report.
Ironically enough although the JSCI report did finger Powell, Pikoli one again did absolutely nothing about it.
So now that we all know at least who some of those sources where let’s see.
“A former military intelligence (MI) officer who worked closely with Unita leader Jonas Savimbi and has maintained excellent contacts in Angola. ”
“A private investigator who cut his teeth in apartheid intelligence, but quickly forged links with ANC intelligence post-1994, and has worked closely with police National Commissioner Jackie Selebi.”
Oh – the irony.
“A senior ANC official withdetailed insight into the political and financial sources of Zuma’s support.”
Difficult to doubt that. “Business-friendly” pro-Mbeki faction.
It is of absolutely no surprise that there are quite a few ANC aligned people in there – because as we know the report sought to discredit the “left-leaning” Zuma faction.
@Tony in Virginia
I get that you agree with me but I think you are misrepresenting what I said by writing as if I had said: – “Mbeki did what he did not out of hatred”
What I said was that TM may have seen something wrong with Mr Niehaus. Thats it. In fact, I go so far as saying that the wilderness Niehaus felt had less to do with any dislike.
I thought that I should clear that one.
Ozoneblue:
You are questioning motives. A lawyer would be familiar with logical fallacies such as these. The facts remain:
The Scorpions/DSO did a great job. Refer to the Khampepe Commission.
Vusi Pikoli did a great job. Refer to the Ginwala Commission.
The Browse Mole report was KNOWN to be faulty by all and sundry and it had less impact on national security than the ousting of Mbeki or the firing of Pikoli.
While we are questioning motives, let’s see how many ANC lynchpins on the board or in parliament were under scrutiny by the Scorpions. Can you say vested interest?
Khosi says “…less to do with any dislike”
Tony says “not out of hatred”
I don’t see any difference in meaning.
Anyway, thanks for clearing that one.
Garg Unzola @t 4:29 pm
Garg – what the Browse-Mole report tells us that the NPA/DSO was spying on politically defined “enemies of the state” when they should have been busy with the conducting of high profile crime investigations. There is no getting away from the fact : and as I have pointed out earlier it not only discredits the outcome of their investigations but it constitutes an abuse of the public’s confidence, an abuse of the constitution and sets a very dangerous precedent that can back-fire on the opposition in the very near future.
o3blue – “Garg – what the Browse-Mole report tells us that the NPA/DSO was spying on politically defined “enemies of the state” when they should have been busy with the conducting of high profile crime investigations.”
Isn’t spying on politically defined ‘enemies of the state’ part of high profile crime investigations. The last time I checked, (High) Treason (couldn’t resist using uppercase to show that treason is still after Makwanyane regarded as a possible Capital Crime) is a high profile crime, albeit a crime against the state. Remember the Boeremag trial which is still going on? Stop fidgeting with Browse Mole – I wish that the moles have all been browsed so that we could for once and for all have a transparent state and government, where there are no ‘dark secrets’ worth protecting for the sake of ‘natioal security’ (the last refuge of scoundrels). But it appears, as I have said time and time again, that the top ANC officials (both pre- and post Polokwane) have too many dark secrets to hide that a conscientious prosecutor and his investigators can be allowed free reign. The threats to national security are actually ruling this country and suppressing any criminal investigations that might involve them. That should be as clear as daylight. Moreover, as we have seen with the cases involving the erstwhile head of inteligence services in SA, not all were kosher in the intelligence services itself – so who says Browse Mole was leaked by the NPA?
Anonymouse @ at 5:39 pm
“Isn’t spying on politically defined ‘enemies of the state’ part of high profile crime investigations.”
Naturally – especially if you are the KGB rooting out “anti-revolutionary” enemies of the state. Be careful what you wish for.
Ha-ha-ha! Fortunately we don’t have the KGB, the closest any organization came to that was the Scorpions. The SAPS is too full of lazy, incompetent, corrupt, watchamacallit officers to even dream of forming an efficient KGB – and the ANC and ANCYL (and even the ol’ MK) simply does not have the spunk to form a proper KGB. So, I’m not scared! Who’d you gonna call? Ghost Busters?
Anonymouse @ 5:54 pm
“Fortunately we don’t have the KGB, the closest any organization came to that was the Scorpions. ”
Good – then we all know were you stand on these issues and why you have no problem with the DSO/Apartheid links.
O3blue – you are digressing – trying to side-track the real arguments. Fact is, the current government has completely lost control over the crime situation in RSA, simply because the biggest criminals are all revolutionaries, most of whom form part of the government today and its agencies. The DSO, I don’t have a soft spot for any of them, especially those who themselves have inulged in corruption – check the case law, there are quite a few. Apartheid – well, I have never supported the idea, and, in my lifetime (pre-1994) I have gaoled a large number of policemen who indulged in racist human rights transgressions – so as to set an example of what is to be expected. I, for one, think that Clive Derby-Lewis and Janus Wallus, and Barend Strydom deserved the death penalty that was imposed on each of them, and I found it a pity that, first FW De Klerk put a moratorium on the death penalty being executed and, second, that the CC has outlawed the imposistion of the death penalty. But let’s face it, not all under apartheid were bad. Crime wasn’t such a big problem – due to effective policing and adjudication then. Yes, there were rampant police officials, magistrates and judges then, real mavericks at that, but not all were bad. I mean, look at my track record (unfortunately I cannot divulge my identity here for verification), and that of Judge Johann Kriegler alluded to earlier, and big guys like the late Didcott J. And, the MI guy in Browse Mole, he even helped the ANC government to put a stop to the Equatorial Guinea coup that was planned and executed from here. Quite a few (black and white) policemen that were trained during apartheid, are police that could be trusted with solving the most serious crimes today. So, what if the DSO had links with some apartheid spies that were not all that bad? The mere fact that someone of the other race lived and worked under apartheid does not make them all bad. But, if that is your terms of reference, you’ve got problems for sure. Because then you will sit shivering in your room every night (bed on parrafin tins – for that Tokkeloshe), waiting for the apartheid spies that have not been rooted out to come and get you. This is what conspiracy theorizing does to a person. Just see how Julius Malema fears the dark.
Anonymouse – thanks for the kind words earlier…time zone differences tend to delay my response a bit
Ozone, no matter from which angle you approach this, your position (and that of the ANC) is completely indefensible when viewed through the lens of logic and critical reasoninig, together with the evidence at hand.
The argument that Pikoli should not have been fired rests entirely on a report crafted by a woman I once had respect for – Frene Ginwala. That report basically said Pikoli was great, although a little rough around the edges. The ANC seized on that small little section and used it to justify his firing. While this is not surprising in a country that fires it’s rugby coach after winning the world cup and doing more for national unity in 80 minutes than the ANC has done in 14 years, it is still non-sensical.
Indeed, the ANC’s own actions in dealing with it’s own cadres convicted of criminal acts (bearing in mind that Pikoli was never convicted of anything) indicates that the ANC is fairly lenient to those who criminally breach fiduciary duties towards the public by committing fraud and theft, and being negligent in their duties (not to mention a couple of sexual harrassment issues). Even if you disregard the fact that Pikoli is obviously fit and proper to continue in his position as NDPP, the fact that the ANC allows convicted criminals to continue serving in parliment would seem to say to me that a higher level of leniency should be applied to Mr Pikoli, who was simply found (erroneously, but I’m using the report as it stands) to have not had a full understanding of national security.
In addition, with an election coming, it would seem to me that the rhetoric coming from certain quarters in places like KZN would be akin to inciting violence…remember the fears in 1994 about civil war? Well, surely those same fears exist today should things get out of hand? But nobody has been dismissed from their posts for uttering inflamatory comments which may threaten national security to a much greater extent than Mr Pikoli arresting a suspected high profile criminal.
However, now that Pikoli has been fired, I expect to see a slew of ANC cadres being dismissed from their positions for not being ‘fit and proper’…presuming that the ANC is correct in it’s determination that Pikoli should be fired (oops, I meant Parliment), that would mean that the test for somebody operating in a profile position is not really all that robust. Consequently, I would imagine people like Julius Malema, Fatima Hajat, Jacob Zuma and all those parlimentarians who plead guilty or were convicted in the Travelgate scandal will be removed or fired now too?
Fatima Hajat was recently anti-semitic, which shows a lack of appreciate for national security (Israel has nukes, pissing them off might not be a good idea), Malema tells people that him and his supporters will kill for Zuma (if inciting civil violence isn’t a national security threat, nothing is), Jacob Zuma feels that HIV can be protected against by showering (in a country where the labourforce is being wiped out by AIDS, we really need somebody who actually understands the disease to prevent us regressing into a subsistence farming economy), and the Travelgate MPs are all pissed off because they got caught, and it seems quite dangerous to let disgruntled fraudsters roam the halls of Parliment.
So tell me Ozone, will that happen? Because no matter what, it all comes down to the same thing…if Pikoli is reinstated, the ANC admits that it was all just a vendetta against him…if nobody else is fired, the only conclusion is again that Pikoli was singled out for the Selebi affair and nothing else…the only thing that would prove that it wasn’t is if the ANC starts firing or removing a whole bunch of it’s members from positions of profile….but that’s not going to happen, because loyal cadres are more important than principled ones, not so Ozone?
Anybody who truly believes that this isn’t about Selebi and the ANC flexing it’s muscle is bordering on moronic.
As for Carl Niehaus, I enjoyed the way he said he disclosed his fraud to the ANC, and they hired him anyway…because the intention was that it never get made public…kinda sums up the ANC these days doesn’t it?
Thank you Anonymouse and Big Slipper
For the baggage and all of that – you have certainly put things in perspective for us. So can we get back to topic and agree, in the abstract at least, that the NSA/DSO was engaged in spying activities against politically “enemies of the state” ?
Correction: NPA/DSO
Good. So I assume that the silence is a silent acknowledgment of agreement. So – in terms of our constitution and the the laws governing the conduct of the NPA/DSO, the NPA may not be involved in the gathering of intelligence against perceived “enemies of the state”. That is the job of the NIA and SASS. Anonymous mentioned the example of the Boeremag – you would note that the NPA/DSO was not involved in that one because their mandate is to investigate and prosecute high level crime.
So – to come back to the topic of this thread. The NPA/DSO was involved in “illegal activities” under the leadership of Pikoli. Secondly, he did nothing about it even after the Khampela report made that issue abundantly clear:
“The legislature has decidedly conferred only information gathering powers to the DSO. In so far as the DSO’s activities delve into intelligence gathering, and there has been evidence of this, such action goes outside its legislative competence. The DSO should act within the parameters of its legislative mandate and not impinge on the territory constitutionally assigned to other entities.”
So setting aside the clear evidence of the breaches of security inside the DSO, the mere fact that Pikoloi did nothing to enforce the recommendations of the Khampela commission is to my mind more than enough motivation for his dismissal.
O3blue – The “Khampela Commission”? Refresh my memory – which commission was that again?
And, in any case, there is no principled difference between “INFORMATION gathering” and “INTELLIGENCE gathering”, especially when it relates to criminal investigations, and when it relates to criminal investigations into “organized crime”, it falls squarely within the mandate of the DSO (Scorpions) – as it then was. If the Khampepe Commission held otherwise, it was mistaken. And, even though the Scorpions (DSO) of the NPA was not “involved” in the investigation of the Boeremag crimes, the NPA itself is actively involved in the prosecution of the matter, and before the matter went to court, as in all “ordinary” criminal matters, the police and intelligence services still had to do the outstanding investigations according to the specific wishes and instructions of the NPA. (That happens daily, even in petty theft cases. And, if the police do not do the investigation properly according to the prosecutor’s wish and instructions, the matters are withdrawn and not taken to court.) You see, the police and the intelligence services might know something (sometimes very little) about the investigation of crime and spying on people and organizations, but they really do not have a clue about everything that is required before a case can properly be presented to court. And then also, infighting, nepotism and corruption all have the tendency to have the police and intelligence services turn a blind eye towards some issues – like the Selebi matter, and even the Zuma matter in its early stages. It is for those reasons that the DSO (Scorpions) was established – to provide for independent and fearless information (or even “inetlligence”) gathering with a view to investigate “organized crime” (and Boeremag issues and investigation of top government officials fall squarely within that mandate); and, to make sure that the “investigators”, whether the police, intelligence services or independent investigators appointed by the DSO get the right and adequate evidence (“information” or “intelligence” contained in an affidavit and which the deponent is willing to testify to under oath in a court of law) to secure a conviction before going to court. There is NOTHING in the Constitution or in legislation that prohibits that, and it did not fall outside the DSO’s (as it then was) legislative competence as was suggested by the Khampepe Commission in your quote. Now it does – because the crooked ANC has decided that the Scorpions / DSO has become a thorn in its side, simply because they mustered the audacity to prosecute some of its high officials, and with big success. There was therefore nothing wrong, constitutionally or in terms of its legislative competence for the DSO to either initiate or become involved in Browse Mole. Now, because the intelligence services and sources involved in Browse Mole were not trustworthy, and because Pikoli said that the information (“intelligence” if you like) was not trustworthy and credible enough to be relied on for formal criminal investigations and prosecutions, it can never ever be inferred that he was insensitive to national security issues – that is all hog-wash, invented by the ANC to protect its own butt. I also do not see that there is “clear evidence” of breaches of national security within the DSO.
One more thing: Your assumption on our temporary silence is clearly wrong, just like your whole take on the issue is ill-conceived. And – I don’t carry nearly as much baggage than you are burdening yourself with. I made myself very clear – I am not pro-apartheid, but I am surely against a crooked political party leading the country and threatening to let it sink as long as the fat cats above can stay afloat in their rafts built of the dead bodies of the poor and needy.
Anonymouse @ 2:38 pm
Another 600 odd words and you said absolutely nothing ?
Blanket assertions like “If the Khampepe Commission held otherwise, it was mistaken.” Are you now rejecting the entire Khampepe report or just the sections of it that doesn’t suit your political agenda ?
btw – sorry about the confusion. I was referring to the Khampepe report. Khampela is of course that racist, bleeding arsehole that keeps on interfering with our rugby.
Exactly – all those sentences where you referred to the Kampela report therefore also meant nothing. The portions of the Khampepe report that I reject are those parts that lack legal reasoning as I pointed out above. It’s got nothing to do with my (or anyone else’s) political agenda though – remember the Khampepe Report, despite those nonsensical parts that ANC members (like yourself) so zealously clutch to “prove” that the DSO (Scorpions) have become a nuisance (and a nuisance it became – for the corrupt politicians that is) so that i9t had to be disbanded, still recommended that the Scorpions should be kept intact. This has nothing to do with the political agenda of any person in opposition to the ANC – it has everything to do though with democracy and human rights, where the supporters thereof would like to see less power in the hands of power-crazed politicians, less corruption by them, less gravy-train rides, and more power and wealth for the people by the people.
Anonymouse @ 11:42 am
“it has everything to do though with democracy and human rights, ”
One just have to love this oke. Now contrast that to.
“Fortunately we don’t have the KGB, the closest any organization came to that was the Scorpions. ”
LOL
There are two issues I’d like to raise about the Joint Committee:
1. a complaint was made with regard to the ANC’s insistence on Oupa Monareng being the NA co-Chair. This complaint was referred to the Speakers Office in terms of Rule 30 of the Joint Rules of Parliament. To my knowledge the Speaker has never declared a ruling on the matter.
Where does this leave the constitutionality of the Joint Committee if one of the Chairs can be said to be objectively biased?
2. the Parliamentary drafters were to compile a report on the Joint Committee’s deliberations but instead they drafted a list of “findings” also which had never been deliberated at all. The opposition MPs responded by drafting their own minority report, which Tertius Delport had asked at the beginning could they compile but the Co-Chair’s refused.
With regard to showing unreasonableness on the part of the ANC’s decision, is all this relevant? I feel that having drafters present draft findings prior to any findings being discussed, proves that the minds of the members were not being applied. But is that superseded by any revision of the “draft” findings?
O3blue – Feb 15, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Obviously you don’t have an ironicaly sense of humour. Every reporter worth his keep would have known that comparing the Scorpions to the KGB was a joke. The one is clearly a political organization, toeing the line of its political bosses (KGB – CIA too!) – the other an a-political investigating unit called into being for strengthening of democracy (“corruption busters”), but, when it did not want to toe the line of its creator, it was demolished (DSO / Scorpions). Who will LOL the last?
Ozoneblue
Your “Alleged apartheid intellegence structure” crap of the NPA
also bear in mind Mo Shaik who the scorpains just put in jail, well fancy that no wonder the NIA is claiming the scorpains acted illegaly and tried to with hold information against the arms deal and corruption of Shabir shaik.
Read this
http://www.issafrica.org/CJM/pdf/heferreport.pdf
This report proves all of your assertions that the DSO acted illegaly false
Other NIA claims against the Scorpions and the NPA are that:
The DSO employs foreign nationals like a Ms De Gabrielle, an American who, says McCarthy, was assigned by the US department of justice and its local counterpart to advise the NPA on financial and commercial prosecutions;
The DSO has formal relations with foreign intelligence structures and the NPA concluded a memorandum of understanding with the Chinese intelligence services;
Certain members of the NPA have “undeclared links with foreign intelligence services”;
Foreign intelligence services have infiltrated DSO using private-sector companies that the Scorpions sometimes work with during investigations;
A senior DSO official provided a German agent with copies of DSO documentation – the official has links with the French Intelligence Service ;
In carrying out its operations, the DSO sometimes uses private security companies run by foreign intelligence services or with links to apartheid-era spooks; and
Senior DSO officials “compromise sensitive information” by leaking it to the media.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!
chris mcdaniel @ 10:18 am
Sorry chris I’m having difficulty understanding what you are trying to say, especially this part : “This report proves all of your assertions that the DSO acted illegaly false” I don’t see any references to the DSO inthat report except for the following that reinforces the observation about regular occurrence of serious security breaches inside the DSO:
“I do not intend dealing in detail with Mr Maharaj’s evidence or with Mr Ngcuka’s rebuttal. Suffice it to say that there can be no doubt that someone did leak information which must have been gathered in the course of the investigation against Mr Maharaj. Mr Ngcuka was not prepared to concede that the guilty party must have been someone in his office because he had ordered an investigation into that possibility and the outcome had been inconclusive. But there is acceptable evidence that Mr Jovial Rantau (a newspaper editor) told Mr Maharaj during a telephone conversation that his source was ‘within the Scorpions’ and the probabilities are overwhelming that this was indeed the case. It must accordingly be accepted that someone in Mr Ngcuka’s office has disclosed information relating to a pending investigation to the press and that this is likely to have occurred contrary to the provisions of section 41(6)(a).”
“Whether Mr Ngcuka has condoned the leak of information from his office is another matter. Mr Maharaj first received inquiries from Jessica Bezuidenhout from Sunday Times about certain transactions with Mr Schabir Shaik as early as February 2003. Although he immediately telephoned Mr Ngcuka and told him what had happened, the leak had not been plugged five months later when, on 31 July 2003, he received fresh inquiries from Jovial Rantao.”
“Section 41(6)(a) of the Prosecuting Authority Act was not enacted for nothing and as long as someone in the National Director’s office keeps flouting the prohibition against the disclosure of information, one cannot be assured that the Prosecuting Authority is being used for the purpose for which it was intended.”
The above extracts from the Hefer commission report paints a rather bleak picture of how the NDPP seems to have no control over his department and how leaks of confidential information goes unchecked with no oversight.
Ozoneblue if someone had to tell you the moon isnt made of cheese you will still insist it is made up of cheese even if a rock was brought to you to show it isnt made up of cheese you will still insist it is made up of cheese.
look this is not hard – The Hefer Report clearly shows that there is a Vandetta against the NPA and at the time Ngcuka’s as head of the NPA and that the allegations I listed out to you are false proven by the report esp the NPA has connections to apartheid links??
You fail to know that many NIA operatives are considered sympathetic to Zuma once head of ANC intelligence
In their submissions to the Khampepe commission, the NIA and the police criticised “some elements” in the Scorpions for using the elite crime-fighting unit to advance personal and political vendettas which are hearsay and innuendo which you seem to think are “FACTS” magical facts!
which the report found false!
Key to the NIA’s misgivings about the Scorpions is the claim that the unit runs its own intelligence body that does not account to the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee (Nicoc) which is in charge of the country’s intelligence services.
Former intelligence operative Mo Shaik who has a personal vandetta against the NPA hence his brother is in jail ( think very carefully here)
Next equally bizarre was a sustained attempt to blame Pikoli for the notorious Browse Mole report, and its leaking, despite his clear explanation of the chain of events and the absence of evidence.
Mbeki told Pikoli that the report, which warned of possible insurrection among security agencies, was “80% true”.
if the browse mole report shows the scorpains acted on beyond there mandate, 1stly does not show breach of security and 2ndly and most importantly if all the government agencies are being infiltrated then there was good reason to for the scorpians to act outside its mandate
and this just futher cements what is going on http://www.csvr.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=21
Ozone, I live 5 to 6 hours behind SA depending on the time of year, please don’t presume that my lack of response is due to me being unable to respond to you…it’s simply a logistical matter, given that I work long days, and cannot keep checking in on the posts at work (I’m on lunch now, so now I can).
I’ve already had my say…but just to point it out again…in summary, the Scorpions were bad because they gathered intelligence from some sources who were ‘undesirable’ (I thought that was part and parcel of espionage and intelligence gathering?), and Pikoli must go because somebody drafted (not published – drafted) a report that wasn’t true…and thus he’s not ‘fit and proper’?
Are you serious man? Next topic please…
Pikoli does his job exceptionally well. Gets fired.
Niehaus does his job dismally poorly. Gets redeployed.
There’s a lesson to be learnt here: Don’t rock the ANC’s boat. Do your ‘business unusual’, with secret handshakes and encrypted faxes and foreign capital, and nobody gets hurt.
Now the courts will decide
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2471373,00.html
[...] law professor Pierre de Vos [...]