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	<title>Comments on: Please drop this crazy idea, Minister Radebe</title>
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	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Mcdaniel</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15860</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mcdaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15860</guid>
		<description>Skhokho Radebe // Jul 14, 2009 at 5:29 pm 

Leigh is actually right here you are blinded by your own agenda and provide no evidence. 

If your friend is being so badly abused by these white devils ummmm then why dont they go to the equality courts and lay a charge? or make a complaint to the JSC?

Ill give you an example how badly out of sync and just how you seem to have your own agenda..Judge Carole Lewis how is she an apartheid judge? she was nominated as an acting judge to the JHb high court in 1998 then she became a judge of the SCA in 2003 

what year did apartheid end?

so how is she an apartheid Judge?

so really who is actually being Naive....

personnal question Skhokho Radebe why do you think in color? look just admit ur a racist....youll feel better. look ill help you:  Im a racist im a yank and I hate canadians and they hate us. see i feel so much better</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skhokho Radebe // Jul 14, 2009 at 5:29 pm </p>
<p>Leigh is actually right here you are blinded by your own agenda and provide no evidence. </p>
<p>If your friend is being so badly abused by these white devils ummmm then why dont they go to the equality courts and lay a charge? or make a complaint to the JSC?</p>
<p>Ill give you an example how badly out of sync and just how you seem to have your own agenda..Judge Carole Lewis how is she an apartheid judge? she was nominated as an acting judge to the JHb high court in 1998 then she became a judge of the SCA in 2003 </p>
<p>what year did apartheid end?</p>
<p>so how is she an apartheid Judge?</p>
<p>so really who is actually being Naive&#8230;.</p>
<p>personnal question Skhokho Radebe why do you think in color? look just admit ur a racist&#8230;.youll feel better. look ill help you:  Im a racist im a yank and I hate canadians and they hate us. see i feel so much better</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15858</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15858</guid>
		<description>Skhokho Radebe, even though I stand by my views regarding the import of judicial independence and the rule of law, I wish to apologise to you for having conveyed them. I wish to apologise because discussions about these points, however relevant they happen to be, often go so far to principle that they end up overlooking individuals. And for people to stand any chance at realising common ground and hopefully forgiveness, I think that some time has to be earmarked for considering individuals.

So with a view to adopting a more personal touch, I have read your last two posts here in what I hope will prove to be a more meaningful fashion. I have tried to read them more skillfully than I read the one that preceeded them. 

Now I believe that skilful reading (much like skilful listening) engages not only the capacity for critical analysis but also intuition and tolerance. And having sought to read your posts in this way, I think two conclusions are inescapable. First, you are angry. And this is really the more obvious of the two. It also tends to obscure the second and more important of the conclusions: you are hurt. And for what it is worth (and as difficult as it may be for you to accept), I do sympathise. It seems you have had a number of very unpleasant experiences.

I would ask you one question though: what might it take for you to accept that it is in your own interest to take people (whatever race, creed or persuasion) as they come?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skhokho Radebe, even though I stand by my views regarding the import of judicial independence and the rule of law, I wish to apologise to you for having conveyed them. I wish to apologise because discussions about these points, however relevant they happen to be, often go so far to principle that they end up overlooking individuals. And for people to stand any chance at realising common ground and hopefully forgiveness, I think that some time has to be earmarked for considering individuals.</p>
<p>So with a view to adopting a more personal touch, I have read your last two posts here in what I hope will prove to be a more meaningful fashion. I have tried to read them more skillfully than I read the one that preceeded them. </p>
<p>Now I believe that skilful reading (much like skilful listening) engages not only the capacity for critical analysis but also intuition and tolerance. And having sought to read your posts in this way, I think two conclusions are inescapable. First, you are angry. And this is really the more obvious of the two. It also tends to obscure the second and more important of the conclusions: you are hurt. And for what it is worth (and as difficult as it may be for you to accept), I do sympathise. It seems you have had a number of very unpleasant experiences.</p>
<p>I would ask you one question though: what might it take for you to accept that it is in your own interest to take people (whatever race, creed or persuasion) as they come?</p>
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		<title>By: Maya</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15839</link>
		<dc:creator>Maya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15839</guid>
		<description>Skhokho Radebe  : &quot;The reson i say this is because i and others have defended litigants in various courts and the conclusion we reached is that judgments are often informed by factors outside the law&quot;.

Uhm... like the Nicholson judgment? Thought that was a good thing in your books?

Mr Radebe, I am sorry to say but I think you are bulls*ing about you being a lawyer.
And if what you say is true, the only conclusion I can come to is that what we have here is a case of sour grapes on the part of someone who has yet to win a case. fresh out of law school? or years of disappointment and embarrassment?

&quot;you must realise that in the future, some of us will be on the bench as Judges&quot;
hahaha. i struggle to imagine a reality in which you will qualify as a judge, sir. not because you are black, but because you have shown by your utterances that you are not made of that stuff.
try zimbabwe, you might have more luck there.

oh, and calling someone a redneck? RACIST.

finally, you show very little confidence in your party&#039;s ability and achievements fifteen years into democracy. wonder what they&#039;ll say about that? 

the skhokhos and terreblanches may rave on the fringes as they want, but thank God that there remain the moderate south Africans who are trying to make the country work.

but continue, please, your rantings are entertaining. beware though that they are reinforcing stereotypes held by WHITE racists about black people. (because yes, skhokho, you are a racist despite being black. we see this from your racist stereotypes that you fling about like you know what going through the blades of a fan).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skhokho Radebe  : &#8220;The reson i say this is because i and others have defended litigants in various courts and the conclusion we reached is that judgments are often informed by factors outside the law&#8221;.</p>
<p>Uhm&#8230; like the Nicholson judgment? Thought that was a good thing in your books?</p>
<p>Mr Radebe, I am sorry to say but I think you are bulls*ing about you being a lawyer.<br />
And if what you say is true, the only conclusion I can come to is that what we have here is a case of sour grapes on the part of someone who has yet to win a case. fresh out of law school? or years of disappointment and embarrassment?</p>
<p>&#8220;you must realise that in the future, some of us will be on the bench as Judges&#8221;<br />
hahaha. i struggle to imagine a reality in which you will qualify as a judge, sir. not because you are black, but because you have shown by your utterances that you are not made of that stuff.<br />
try zimbabwe, you might have more luck there.</p>
<p>oh, and calling someone a redneck? RACIST.</p>
<p>finally, you show very little confidence in your party&#8217;s ability and achievements fifteen years into democracy. wonder what they&#8217;ll say about that? </p>
<p>the skhokhos and terreblanches may rave on the fringes as they want, but thank God that there remain the moderate south Africans who are trying to make the country work.</p>
<p>but continue, please, your rantings are entertaining. beware though that they are reinforcing stereotypes held by WHITE racists about black people. (because yes, skhokho, you are a racist despite being black. we see this from your racist stereotypes that you fling about like you know what going through the blades of a fan).</p>
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		<title>By: Skhokho Radebe</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15833</link>
		<dc:creator>Skhokho Radebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15833</guid>
		<description>ERIC MMILA, i cant believe your naivete. But it is understandable given your baground. Well, my friend works there as a Law Clerk. He has suffered the most severe racism at the hands of white Judges there. Not only him, but also litigants who are treated differently based on their skin color alone. A recent example is Adv Dumisa Nstebenza SC. who was belittled for merely trying to present the client&#039;s case. Similar treatment has never been meted out against any white Counsel, whereas i have seen them do extremely badly than Ntsebenza is alleged to have done. It cannot be disputed that the SCA is adorned by many apartheid Judges like Harmse, Lewis and others. Lastly, you must remember that the law is man made and can be abused by the same man who made it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ERIC MMILA, i cant believe your naivete. But it is understandable given your baground. Well, my friend works there as a Law Clerk. He has suffered the most severe racism at the hands of white Judges there. Not only him, but also litigants who are treated differently based on their skin color alone. A recent example is Adv Dumisa Nstebenza SC. who was belittled for merely trying to present the client&#8217;s case. Similar treatment has never been meted out against any white Counsel, whereas i have seen them do extremely badly than Ntsebenza is alleged to have done. It cannot be disputed that the SCA is adorned by many apartheid Judges like Harmse, Lewis and others. Lastly, you must remember that the law is man made and can be abused by the same man who made it.</p>
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		<title>By: Skhokho Radebe</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15832</link>
		<dc:creator>Skhokho Radebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15832</guid>
		<description>Leigh you must realise that in the future, some of us will be on the bench as Judges. So, lets not kid ourselves by thinking that your people care about Africans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leigh you must realise that in the future, some of us will be on the bench as Judges. So, lets not kid ourselves by thinking that your people care about Africans.</p>
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		<title>By: Skhokho Radebe</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15831</link>
		<dc:creator>Skhokho Radebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15831</guid>
		<description>Leigh, your points are noted, however, i dont agree with them at all, because they are based on assumptions that the ANC is here to use power to all South Africans. Yes i understand that fictitious concept of judicial independence, yet i&#039;m yet to see it alive. The reson i say this is because i and others have defended litigants in various courts and the conclusion we reached is that judgments are often informed by factors outside the law. I&#039;m sure you&#039;ve heard and seen many articles on this. I think its rich     and hypocritical to be lectured by you on the rule of law and judicial independence. I and others have suffered under the very system that your forfathers and grandparents used to oppress my people. My views are not about getting one over white people. They are about THE SPIRIT OF BLACK CONSCIOUSNESS. I think you would do well to read the book on this carefully. In addition, we dont know the full story on Pikoli, all we know is some reports by the liberal media whose interests lie elsewhere. Leigh, you are right that people are angry, but i think you underestimate the anger. You see the crime against the rich are a direct result of the subculture deloping from anger( especially the economic crimes). Lastly, i do believe the ANC has done certain things wrong, who wouldnt have, given the task the face(redeeming us), but this is not unique to the ANC, it has happened in other countries. The ANC is dealing with problems created by your people. So i think that your people have lost any credility or legitimacy to critique our government while at the same time living lavishly from the proceeds and benefits of apartheid( whether direct or indirect). Our people are forging African solutions to African problems. So if that aroses your guilt or fear about the future, well its not my problem!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leigh, your points are noted, however, i dont agree with them at all, because they are based on assumptions that the ANC is here to use power to all South Africans. Yes i understand that fictitious concept of judicial independence, yet i&#8217;m yet to see it alive. The reson i say this is because i and others have defended litigants in various courts and the conclusion we reached is that judgments are often informed by factors outside the law. I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve heard and seen many articles on this. I think its rich     and hypocritical to be lectured by you on the rule of law and judicial independence. I and others have suffered under the very system that your forfathers and grandparents used to oppress my people. My views are not about getting one over white people. They are about THE SPIRIT OF BLACK CONSCIOUSNESS. I think you would do well to read the book on this carefully. In addition, we dont know the full story on Pikoli, all we know is some reports by the liberal media whose interests lie elsewhere. Leigh, you are right that people are angry, but i think you underestimate the anger. You see the crime against the rich are a direct result of the subculture deloping from anger( especially the economic crimes). Lastly, i do believe the ANC has done certain things wrong, who wouldnt have, given the task the face(redeeming us), but this is not unique to the ANC, it has happened in other countries. The ANC is dealing with problems created by your people. So i think that your people have lost any credility or legitimacy to critique our government while at the same time living lavishly from the proceeds and benefits of apartheid( whether direct or indirect). Our people are forging African solutions to African problems. So if that aroses your guilt or fear about the future, well its not my problem!</p>
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		<title>By: ERIC MMILA</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15797</link>
		<dc:creator>ERIC MMILA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15797</guid>
		<description>With all due respect Skhokho Radebe what informs your view that the Supreme Court of Appeal is a racist court. Do you become a racist judge simply because you make a ruling based on facts, available evidence and the law against a black litigant? So how one conclude that a certain court is racist?  
The judiciary to me is partly transformed I mean all judge presidents are black and majority of judges on the bench are black of course we need women as well to be represented on the bench particurlarly as judge presidents. Beside the above what more needs to be transformed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect Skhokho Radebe what informs your view that the Supreme Court of Appeal is a racist court. Do you become a racist judge simply because you make a ruling based on facts, available evidence and the law against a black litigant? So how one conclude that a certain court is racist?<br />
The judiciary to me is partly transformed I mean all judge presidents are black and majority of judges on the bench are black of course we need women as well to be represented on the bench particurlarly as judge presidents. Beside the above what more needs to be transformed.</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15796</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15796</guid>
		<description>Skhokho Radebe, I would like to believe that you and I can have a civil exchange. You see, even though we may opt for opposing positions, I think we both have the betterment of South African society at heart. So civility may be the very least we can expect from one another.

You are quite plainly in favour of a number of proposed changes that bear upon the judiciary. I happen to be against many which I have encounted in various writings. This does not mean that we have to be enemies. It merely discloses an opportunity for us to engage each other meaningfully thereby setting a good example for others who live in this country.

With all respect, I wonder whether you have tried to understand the importance of judicial independence. As I see things, one of the chief reasons as to why judicial independence is of crucial import is this: restricting the judiciary&#039;s independence could mean rendering the courts either directly or indirectly answerable to the executive. And given your earlier post, this seems to be precisely the state of affairs which you would advocate.

But we as a country should make every civil, lawful effort to prevent such a reality from coming to pass. Now as to the reason why: restricting the judiciary&#039;s independence could well undermine the rule of law. And the notion of the rule of law can comfortably embrace the following: the view that the ways in which people can conduct themselves (regardless of wealth, position or station in life) are restricted by the content of applicable laws. Or more simply couched, if laws provide for it you are bound by it  - unless of course the laws in question are defeated by constitutional challenges. Thus, the rule of law is important in that it ensures that people (politicians for instance) cannot simply do as they please.

Again with the respect, it seems you are guilty of one deeply unfortunate misapprehension. You seem to think that the colour of your skin is a guarantee that the ANC&#039;s pursuit of power cannot harm you. That the means it will employ to safeguard its crony culture could never prejudice black people as well as anyone else. If so, then you are wrong. Take Vusi Pikoli. He is black. And yet he got a proper raw deal for striving (and succeeding) to be worthy of his former office.

I accept that there are deep inequalities and understandable measures of bitterness in our society. But as I am sure you will agree, anger and resentment are hardly friends to reason. And it makes little sense for you to simply abandon your capacity to reason purely because you think recent and also foreseeable developments could be construed as black South Africans getting one over their white counterparts. We are all of us in this. And if certain proposals materialise, we are all of us in trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skhokho Radebe, I would like to believe that you and I can have a civil exchange. You see, even though we may opt for opposing positions, I think we both have the betterment of South African society at heart. So civility may be the very least we can expect from one another.</p>
<p>You are quite plainly in favour of a number of proposed changes that bear upon the judiciary. I happen to be against many which I have encounted in various writings. This does not mean that we have to be enemies. It merely discloses an opportunity for us to engage each other meaningfully thereby setting a good example for others who live in this country.</p>
<p>With all respect, I wonder whether you have tried to understand the importance of judicial independence. As I see things, one of the chief reasons as to why judicial independence is of crucial import is this: restricting the judiciary&#8217;s independence could mean rendering the courts either directly or indirectly answerable to the executive. And given your earlier post, this seems to be precisely the state of affairs which you would advocate.</p>
<p>But we as a country should make every civil, lawful effort to prevent such a reality from coming to pass. Now as to the reason why: restricting the judiciary&#8217;s independence could well undermine the rule of law. And the notion of the rule of law can comfortably embrace the following: the view that the ways in which people can conduct themselves (regardless of wealth, position or station in life) are restricted by the content of applicable laws. Or more simply couched, if laws provide for it you are bound by it  &#8211; unless of course the laws in question are defeated by constitutional challenges. Thus, the rule of law is important in that it ensures that people (politicians for instance) cannot simply do as they please.</p>
<p>Again with the respect, it seems you are guilty of one deeply unfortunate misapprehension. You seem to think that the colour of your skin is a guarantee that the ANC&#8217;s pursuit of power cannot harm you. That the means it will employ to safeguard its crony culture could never prejudice black people as well as anyone else. If so, then you are wrong. Take Vusi Pikoli. He is black. And yet he got a proper raw deal for striving (and succeeding) to be worthy of his former office.</p>
<p>I accept that there are deep inequalities and understandable measures of bitterness in our society. But as I am sure you will agree, anger and resentment are hardly friends to reason. And it makes little sense for you to simply abandon your capacity to reason purely because you think recent and also foreseeable developments could be construed as black South Africans getting one over their white counterparts. We are all of us in this. And if certain proposals materialise, we are all of us in trouble.</p>
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		<title>By: Skhokho Radebe</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15794</link>
		<dc:creator>Skhokho Radebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15794</guid>
		<description>I support all the proposed changes, not only will the ligants make that racist court ( Supreme Court of Appeal) a thing of the past by exhausting their avenues in the High Courts and then turning to the Concourt as a last court in all matters, but there will be greater oversight over the judiciary, especially the racist Magistrates&#039;, Judges, acting Judges and other legal professionals who are stunting transformative goals of the government. In addition, there will be an improvement in communication between the Executive and the Judiciary. So please Pirre and your followers, take your uninformed comments to Perth, UK, Netherlands or France take your pick. Transformation of the legal profession is coming like it or not!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I support all the proposed changes, not only will the ligants make that racist court ( Supreme Court of Appeal) a thing of the past by exhausting their avenues in the High Courts and then turning to the Concourt as a last court in all matters, but there will be greater oversight over the judiciary, especially the racist Magistrates&#8217;, Judges, acting Judges and other legal professionals who are stunting transformative goals of the government. In addition, there will be an improvement in communication between the Executive and the Judiciary. So please Pirre and your followers, take your uninformed comments to Perth, UK, Netherlands or France take your pick. Transformation of the legal profession is coming like it or not!</p>
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		<title>By: nkululeko</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/please-drop-this-crazy-idea-minsiter-radebe/#comment-15751</link>
		<dc:creator>nkululeko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 06:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1197#comment-15751</guid>
		<description>Mdu, you may remember that a short while ago COSATU siad that Cabinet Ministers should not be formulating policy but they should simply implement ANC policy (as conatined in their Polokwane resolutions and manifesto). 

As much as the various parties had their own manifestos and some may have ben voted for on their policies (I doubt the ANC was one), it is best that Ministers formulate clear and well-researched policies for their departments. 

What I&#039;m saying, in a long-winded way, is that there seems to be a blurring of the distinction between the party and the state. The term govt has, for years, been loosely use to refer to the people who are the party in charge. In this case it is the ANC. So the ANC govt and the ANC-led govt mean much the same thing.

A truly independant judiciary was crucial to ensure a smooth transition to a constitutional democracy. That&#039;s been don (almost) and now is the time to start acting just like the govt did under apartheid - BULLY. 

Having control of the purse strings will ultimately be the power that the govt needs. I&#039;d like to know whether such an amendment would allow the govt to reduce the remuneration of judges. And where do the magistrates fit into this whole picture?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mdu, you may remember that a short while ago COSATU siad that Cabinet Ministers should not be formulating policy but they should simply implement ANC policy (as conatined in their Polokwane resolutions and manifesto). </p>
<p>As much as the various parties had their own manifestos and some may have ben voted for on their policies (I doubt the ANC was one), it is best that Ministers formulate clear and well-researched policies for their departments. </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m saying, in a long-winded way, is that there seems to be a blurring of the distinction between the party and the state. The term govt has, for years, been loosely use to refer to the people who are the party in charge. In this case it is the ANC. So the ANC govt and the ANC-led govt mean much the same thing.</p>
<p>A truly independant judiciary was crucial to ensure a smooth transition to a constitutional democracy. That&#8217;s been don (almost) and now is the time to start acting just like the govt did under apartheid &#8211; BULLY. </p>
<p>Having control of the purse strings will ultimately be the power that the govt needs. I&#8217;d like to know whether such an amendment would allow the govt to reduce the remuneration of judges. And where do the magistrates fit into this whole picture?</p>
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