Constitutional Hill

President Zuma: think before insulting him

The South African Communist Party (SACP) recently repeated its call for the creation of an “anti-insult law” to protect President Jacob Zuma from criticism and ridicule by members of the public. This follows the ANC’s veiled threat of adopting an “insult law” to protect President Zuma in the wake of the open letter (penned by Sushi King Kenny Kunene) attacking the President. While many countries criminalise insults to their Presidents, such a law would never pass constitutional muster in South Africa. But this does not mean that we should not take care to avoid perpetuating racial stereotypes when we insult or criticise our politicians.

In the late nineteen eighties students at Stellenbosch University made up many rude Afrikaans songs about then State President PW Botha and his Apartheid government. One song mocked PW Botha’s wife, Elize, suggesting that she was so fat that she could not fit into a normal car and had to be driven around in a Casspir. That same song also suggested that Botha was never going to have sex with Elize again. As I said, these were delightfully rude songs. They were aimed at insulting and mocking PW Botha, the Apartheid regime and the policies they stood for. We had enormous fun singing them. After all, few things are as satisfying as mocking a thin-skinned tyrant.

Times have, of course, changed. We now live in a constitutional democracy. Whatever you might think of the policies or personal beliefs and actions of our political leaders (whether Jacob Zuma, Helen Zille or anyone else), they have been democratically elected. None of them are tyrants.

Not that this has stopped citizens and fellow politicians from mocking and insulting our leaders.

Kenny Kunene recently called President Zuma a “monster” and a “tyrant” because Zuma has been horrid to his friend Julius Malema. Zapiro draws Zuma with a showerhead sprouting from his head to mock his statement made in court about taking a shower to limit the risk of contracting HIV. Comedians regularly mock Zuma because he appears to be in the pocket of a rich Indian family. Julius Malema once called Helen Zille a “racist little girl” more or less during the same period when he called Lindiwe Mazibuko “Zille’s tea girl”. Theuns Botha was recently reprimanded for making a shockingly racist baboon slur towards another legislator.  Zille has, in turn, been called a “cockroach”. And not so long ago SACP leader Blade Nzimande himself insulted Mazibuko in Parliament by calling her a “coconut”.

Given the fact that Zuma is by far not the only leader being mocked and insulted and given, further, that Blade Nzimande has also mocked and insulted his political opponents, the call by Nzimande and the SACP appears extremely opportunistic. The SACP seemingly wants one set of rules to protect President Zuma (who, lets face it, often invite insults by the company he keeps and the things he says and does) and another set of rules that would allow them to continue insulting and mocking their political opponents.

It should not come as a surprise that a politician like Nzimande would opportunistically argue in favour of legislation that would protect his boss from insults and mockery, while indulging in insults and mockery of other politicians. Nzimande is a politician and he is being paid to be opportunistic.

What I find more surprising is that – judging by my Twitter feed – many seemingly level-headed South Africans (people whose opinions I respect) have sympathy for the idea that the law should protect the president and maybe even all politicians or all elders (at least the elders with whom they agree politically) from insults and mockery. The president, some argue, must be respected. Like all human beings he must be respected merely because he is human – not because he has done anything to deserve our respect.

They advance many interrelated reasons for this view. But they are not being consistent. If pressed, they might concede that not all  political opponents or all human beings deserve respect. They probably would also concede  that it would be acceptable to insult some people with whom they disagree.

Wit Wolf, Barend Strydom, for example, who went on a racist murder spree, surely does not deserve our respect. The killers of Anene Booysen surely do not deserve our respect either.

And what about that silly Neil Diamond impersonator, Steve Hofmeyr? Surely you will have to be an exceptionally tolerant human being to argue that he deserves unreserved respect from those of us who happen to be younger than him? What about George W Bush? He started two wars that caused the deaths of thousands of fellow human beings, so why would he deserve unreserved respect?

Besides, because many of the same individuals who argue that President Zuma or all older people should be respected, remained silent when Helen Zille bore the brunt of Julius Malema’s insults, something else (over and above political opportunism) must be at play.

For the reasons set out above, I would be surprised if “African culture” is the only reasons for this demand that President Jacob Zuma should be respected – regardless of what he does and says. In any case, as we all know, there is not one definitive “African culture” which everyone in Africa follows and respects.

But I do not think that political opportunism as exemplified by Blade Nzimande can explain this demand for unreserved respect either.

I suspect in order to understand the demand for unqualified respect for President Zuma (and even for the passing of insult laws to protect Zuma) we have to look at South Africa’s particular history and at the context of deeply embedded racial prejudice.

Many white South Africans often do not respect black South Africans to the same degree that the would have if the person was white. Sometimes the disrespect is deliberate: many Barend Strydom and Steve Hofmeyr type racists deliberately refuse to acknowledge the common humanity of black South Africans.

Some (but not all) white people who do not even know that they harbour deeply embedded racial prejudices treat black South Africans differently and with less respect than they do white people. We might all love Madiba, but many of us whites would demand far more from a black person before we would respect them than we would demand from a white person. We just would not realise that we are doing it.

Responses to this column will again illustrate that many white people do not accept or know that this is indeed true. It is exactly this denial that can be so infuriating and so sad. It is sad, because the denial traps some white people in a cycle of fear, anger and guilt. Instead of trying to liberate themselves from the shackles of their own prejudice – an on-going and never-ending process – they deny their careless and (to them) invisible prejudice without realising this leads to more anger and fear – instead of liberation and acceptance of yourself.

I suspect that in this context it is not surprising that many (but of course not all) black South Africans experience the expression of disrespect for Jacob Zuma as disrespect for all black South Africans. Our president is one of the most powerful people in South Africa. Whether you agree with his politics or not, he symbolically reminds us that black people have been liberated from white oppression. When we criticise Zuma – as we must when he does something wrong, at least if we were to ensure that our democracy flourishes – then we can easily be viewed as criticising black people in general or as criticising the very notion of liberation and racial justice.

Personally I believe you cannot escape from this dynamic. If this is correct, it means white people can either retreat from the public space (a la Samantha Vice) or they can try to engage in the public sphere in a non-patronising manner while being acutely aware of the potential racial undertones that any criticism they offer might carry for many fellow South Africans.

That is where I find myself: I try to be robust in my criticism of President Zuma and other leaders – after all, to hold my (black) president to a lower standard than I would have held a white leader would be insultingly patronising towards all black people. But I always ask myself whether my criticism is phrased in a manner that runs the risk of perpetuating prejudices against black people in general. (What I never do is to worry what Blade Nzimande might think about my criticism.) In some context (among people who make sweeping negative statements about the ANC or black people, for example), I instinctively feel like defending President Zuma – even if I disagree with what he has said or done – to avoid perpetuating prejudices and hatred.

Having said all this, and having argued (implicitly at least) that we should be careful when we insult our leaders (or anyone else in society, for that matter) to try to avoid inadvertently perpetuating racial stereotypes, it does not mean that I believe insult laws are either needed or that they would pass constitutional muster.

Because we live in a constitutional democracy based, amongst others, on the Rule of Law, an insult law aimed at protecting the president or other famous and important people would never pass constitutional muster. This is because legislation that singles out a specific individual or position in order to give that one individual or one position special treatment compared to everyone else, would flout the very basic principles of the Rule of Law, namely that the law should apply generally.

Besides, an insult law will be abused by whoever is in power to shield him- or herself from legitimate criticism. And legitimate political criticism of political leaders is the lifeblood of any democracy. A law that in effect places one elected politician above the rest of us would therefore fundamentally undermine our democracy and would create a quasi monarchy. This cannot be squared with the principles underlying a constitutional democracy.

It is easy to argue that respect is earned and that no political leader can demand blind respect regardless of his or her statements and actions. But in a world in which many people suspect (or know from own experience) that many of their fellow citizens apply double standards when they must decide whether a person earned their respect (based on whether that person is white or black), the mantra of respect that must be earned becomes far more problematic. It goes without saying that the responses of some readers to this column will merely prove my point.

  • John Roberts

    Sweet fuckall in this article is coherent

  • Herman Lategan

    John, it’s not an article, it’s a blog. Different styles. Strange that I understood each word and found it coherent.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Cde Blade and ihlonipho again.

    Really! Small men? Should stay away from politics. If you’re under 5’10 get another job.

  • SelloCoast

    You are on point, agreed 100%. Very interesting piece and you write so well without prejudice or favour. This “I instinctively feel like defending President Zuma – even if I disagree with what he has said or done – to avoid perpetuating prejudices and hatred” I completely relate with and also switch into a defensive mode when I see such comments that are, more than anything else, aimed at undermining the intelligence of black people in general or the black leadership in particular.

    Surprisingly, I find this type of behaviour quite interesting as it appears to be some archetype of superiority/inferiority complex stretched to an intricate proportions. Alfred Adler (who coined the term superiority complex) said we should not be astonished if in the cases where we see an inferiority [feeling] complex we find a superiority complex more or less hidden. On the other hand, if we inquire into a superiority complex and study its continuity, we can always find a more or less hidden inferiority [feeling] complex.

    By seeking to defeat the legitimate seating black president, those who try, are seeking a come-back victory over the black populace for leading a democratic South Africa. It is sad, sad, sad because instead of uniting for a free and fair democratic country we are throwing insults at each other and we miss the opportunities of building a united country.

  • Richard

    Respect is a very precious commodity. It’s the easiest thing to lose and no matter how much money or power you have, you aren’t guaranteed respect. Witness how much ragging Donald Trump or Kim Jong-il attracted, despite their every effort at pomp and ceremony.

    I’m not sure what the answer is with our local leaders. Strong insults often diminish the insulter while giving the younger-minded a few laughs. Maybe they’re an escape valve. Whites feel forced into watching while leaders repeatedly break laws and dismantle legal apparatus. Insults are a protected refuge. “You may force me to pay you tax that you spend on your home, but I’ll never respect you.”

    There are many in government that do deserve respect and unfortunately the bad eggs draw the most discussion. I have only once met a Struggle leader and an hour talking with him left me with the most profound feeling. That man I respect and I understand why his followers, followed.

    Zuma, I don’t get. Either I must repress my feeling of distaste or let it out in some way. Even a gentle “we should not insult our leaders” is a line in the sand that I’m not sure about. Zuma doesn’t seem to respect the people or the law, why should we respect him?

    He has money and power but he cannot buy what he wants most.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Obviously, Sello exists in a moral vacuum. And sees the world through racially-tinted specs. And still pontificates on the issue?

    There are so many logical inconsistencies here where to begin?

    “By seeking to defeat the legitimate seating black president, those who try, are seeking a come-back victory over the black populace for leading a democratic South Africa.”

    ???

    It’s called democracy. Sello!

  • Richard

    Sello, the ANC itself defeated the “legitimate seating black president” (Mbeki), so why is that an act of racism or “superiority complex” when non-ANC members try to do the same thing? The job of the other parties is to attempt to defeat this one. That’s what they’re paid for and I think it’s counter-productive (and ironic) to lay their actions at the alter of racism and superiority complexes.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Eish – Pierre sounds terribly apologetic about having to say that even thinking about such a law is incredibly stupid.

    For their formidable stature, Chris Hani was held to the same exacting standard as Joe Slovo; Mbeki was measured against the iconic Mandela.

    Zuma is being evaluated against the worst because that’s where he’s pitched himself!

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    SelloCoast
    June 27, 2013 at 9:04 am

    Hey Sello,

    “are seeking a come-back victory over the black populace for leading a democratic South Africa.”

    If all White people disrespect all Black people – how will that reverse our constitutional democracy?

    This sounds mightily confused!

  • Chris

    Ha ha, the King of Insults has spoken!

  • Gwebecimele

    The CULPRITS are GONE. Riding Jet Ski and living in a sea side villa. Unlike the blacks we will not see their face, cars wife, kids etc

    HILTON TARRANT: Henry, in terms of engaging with those executives, did you manage to engage with them? Have you had cooperation with them? I ask this because Roger Jardine at Aveng in his prepared statement on Monday made it clear that it was very difficult for that company to engage with former executives.

    HENRY LAAS: Ja, as I said earlier on, there were five executives that were implicated here and we were able to make contact with two of them and three of them we were not able to reach and some of them have left the country and are working in other parts of the world, in Europe and in Australia. So we were not able to contact them but with two of them we did manage to speak to. As you will see from the detail that was disclosed by the competition authorities, of the 17 transgressions, which Murray & Roberts have been penalised for, ten of them came from submissions that were made by other companies. In other words we don’t have within Murray & Roberts any knowledge of transgressions on those projects and it was where we were implicated by others in their submissions

  • SelloCoast

    Richard, agreed.

    To the others I’d say please read the column again. The answers lie in there. 1. I am not an ANC member and I’m not saying all these to defend Zuma, the ANC or any politician for that matter but as a responsible citizen of South Africa who respects our democracy and constitution I do not think we are building the country by hurling insults at each other.

    Now, let me put in context what I meant by “seeking to defeat” which seems to have captured a lot of attention – I’m referring to the “in the minds” of those who comment at these type of blogs and always find an opportunity to say a mouthful albeit negative about this beautiful country. I am not requesting for bloggers to be praise singers of Jacob Zuma but to have constructive criticism that will build this country.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    SelloCoast
    June 27, 2013 at 10:07 am

    Sello,

    “to have constructive criticism that will build this country.”

    That’s what Nzimande and co are objecting to.

    You still should explain how if White people disrespect Black people, then the democratic gains will be reversed.

  • Peter Lawton

    A “quasi monarchy” could very well be the desired outcome,for those punting the ‘Insult Law’ concept. Those who support such sort of monarchs are hopeful of ensuring rich, long-term rewards for keeping the monarch comfortable. Whether such a law would pass muster in a constitutional democracy is a nice point to consider, purely from a ‘numerical possibilities’ perspective. I know that the majority of South Africans are thought to support the present government, but they do not do so in elections. What happens on voting days enables other things to be done in the Legislature. If the 15 million who currently do not register or vote, awake and move one way, an elected majority able to change this nice constitution will be able to install an ‘Insult Law’. If that same inactive 15 million awake and move the other way, a government with completely different ideas could be elected. Meanwhile, let’s employ some creative criticism where due, and some some colourful condemnation of double-standard politicians. Enjoy the day!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Our Constitution recognizes that at their very core, politicians are people who cannot be trusted with anything. That is why there are so many checks and balances, term limits and so on.

    In my opinion, politicians deserve absolutely no respect because they are all de facto con artists. Notably, it is the politicians who demand respect and deference from the populace.

    This is wrong on all levels. The only time a politician should get respect is when they have retired from office and left a positive legacy.

    Until then, they should be treated like the tax-money grabbing scum that they all are.

  • SelloCoast

    Maggs, not all white people and not all black people, again read the column. I was reiterating the facts outlined by Pierre and as such saw no reason to repeat what he said.

    And what makes you think that I agree with Blade, because I’m black?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    SelloCoast
    June 27, 2013 at 10:40 am

    Sello,

    I have no idea whether you’re Black or not or whether or not you agree with Blade – but that’s irrelevant

    You said : “By seeking to defeat the legitimate seating black president, those who try, are seeking a come-back victory over the black populace for leading a democratic South Africa.”

    So my question is : how can those who disrespect a sitting Black president defeat the democratic process enshrined in our Constitution and law?

  • Mike

    @SelloCoast – Since 1994 I have been insulted every day of my life through the propaganda from the SABC under the control of the ANC, about generalisations of whites and about our history.
    Maybe the ANC should take the splinter out of their eye first before resorting to a law that attempts to silence the white population in this country.
    The accusations that JZ lies, is a philanderer, has employed a head of the NPA to ensure that the connected would not be prosecuted and who was found to be unfit for his position, appointed a chief of police who later was very much implicated who Roux Shabangu in the corrupt leasing of offices for the police, simply indicates that we have a president who is worthy of the insults hurled at him and the only reason he is in power is because of the vote in areas under tribal authorities which should be excluded because they were not cast free and fair.

  • John Roberts

    @ Herman

    It’s an article. The host is a blog. Dummy.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Zoo Keeper says:
    June 27, 2013 at 10:31 am

    You know those moments where Pierre De vos and Jon Qwelane and Max du Preez find themselves in a position where they wish to express criticism of the ANC but need to establish their anti-white credentials first (Again!)?

    I find myself in a similar place at the moment. I wish to remind everyone if they want to pass a law to enforce respect for a politician they obviously do not understand the distinction between ‘party’ ‘government’ and ‘state’.

    How can we be forced to respect that which we own? Is this a labour law issue?

    But first, let me establish my anti-white-camp-for-this-blog-credentials:
    I find De Vos a kind of legal savant who is often capable of strokes of brilliance but is dogged (He he he! Wouldn’t I like to see my Malinois on him!) by father issues which makes him often not see the woods for the trees almost like one of those pictures which people make you stare at ever longer asking “Do you see it now? Do you see it yet?” Telling you to see the picture within the picture.

  • Boertjie

    I guess we are all prisoners of our worldviews to some degree…some people more than others.

  • SelloCoast

    Maggs,

    There are two kinds of people that have been referred to in my previous comments so to avoid confusion let’s clarify that first.

    1. Those who insult the president through various forms of mainstream media and
    2. Those who insult black people on the comment section of various articles.
    I was largely referring to the latter as I’m a regular blogger myself and found people’s views rather interesting as they demonstrate our uniqueness, similarity and diversity all at once. And I have learnt a lot through these comment sections but the lessons came with a huge price tag – insults and all sorts of derogatory language all seeking to create a superhuman and subhuman master-slave type illusion in this portals. We are unfortunately not all here to build this country.

    Granted, I might have committed a fallacy of appeal to probability or argument from fallacy but an outright outburst at black people or white people is reek more of racial bigotry than a pure exercise of one’s democratic right. Well, my rights of freedom of speech should not encroach on your rights to dignity.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    SelloCoast
    June 27, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Sello – I take your point that there are indeed people who are racially abusive.

    However that alone does not explain how our democratic project is being undermined.

    Particularly clarify how people being racist equates to this undermining.

    p.s. It may be worth mentioning that insults are thrown at me very frequently – racist and otherwise. Even my GRANNY gets thrown into the mix (Dworky & Brett I’m looking at you rotters).

    But that does not diminish me or my constitutional rights and standing.

    p.p.s. I am living in India among 1.3 billion other coolies because that’s where I was dispatched by, er, “some among us”; but it’s nice here because people keep coming up with interesting sayings – would you like to hear some?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    When you fling poo
    Some sticks to you
    A scientific fact
    You soil your name
    Invoke real shame
    A coprophilic act
    We’ll take our cue
    From what you do
    No matter what you say
    This will surely sully you
    Come next voting day

  • Mike

    @Maggs – Yes and you called my grandmother a white monkey even though she gave refuge to an indian mary from being hacked with a panga by blacks in Berea Road during the cato manor riots.

  • Gwebecimele

    Is this another “White Sangoma” who can create money out of nothing??

    http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-special-investigations/chris-walker-diverted-more-than-r20m-to-himself

  • joeslis

    Maggs:

    flinging poo
    at me and at you
    is what monkeys do
    when they live in a zoo

  • postman
  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    June 27, 2013 at 14:16 pm

    Dworky is it you?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    postman
    June 27, 2013 at 16:07 pm

    Postman,

    “@ Maggs Naidu……accreditation for that verse”

    I cannot tell a lie.

    It wasn’t me!

    p.s. I think it was a WHITE Monkey – Mike’s GRANNY perhaps?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ PdV

    “It goes without saying that the responses of some readers to this column will merely prove my point.”

    Splendid pre-emptive move, Pierre! Universal assent would no doubt support your arguments in this posting. But so too, as you have set up the game, does vociferous opposition.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    OB, help! Even as I type, a squadron of imperialist U.S. helicopters (Chinooks, the big ones with two rotors), has invaded the air space above Cape Town!

    What should we do? Fling poo?

    Thanks.

  • Zulani

    @Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    June 27, 2013 at 16:28 pm
    Fling poo?
    Please don’t. You know what happens when the shit strikes the fan. ☺

  • joeslis

    Looks like those poop-flingers are actually “evolving”!

    http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Poop_throwing_monkeys

  • joeslis
  • Maggs Naidu

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    June 27, 2013 at 16:28 pm

    Dworky

    If you had listened to ZooKy and Bretty, instead of mocking them, we would have had our private arsenal of nukes in our garages.

    Then Obama would have been scared of the Muslim Lawyers Association.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Mike says:
    June 27, 2013 at 14:48 pm

    It would tickle my funnybone to refer to Maggs as Sam A. Moosa so I get the ‘Sam’ part but how did this ‘Mary’ label in the ‘Sam and Mary’ story Maggs refers to originate?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    ‘They were aimed at insulting and mocking PW Botha, the Apartheid regime and the policies they stood for.’

    And to think now we are nothing but racist whites and our own kids cannot find jobs because of the color of there skins. Just imagine if we had that sort of information back then.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    And imagine we knew that we were fighting ou ‘struggle’ with the ANC our noble comrades in order to establish the murder, rape and corruption capitol of the world.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    ‘We might all love Madiba, but many of us whites would demand far more from a black person before we would respect them than we would demand from a white person.’

    The opposite is also true. Typical self-loathing white liberals demand much less from black people than they do of whites. That is the worse kind of double standard and racism. A tacit acceptance that blacks are in fact inferior, they always need whites to help them, they also always must get a head start, need 20% less to go to SAA cadet school, they cannot be racist no matter how derogatory and abusive they are of other races – in fact they are pathetic childlike creatures who cannot compete in the racist world of the ‘dominant culture’ – that the white liberals believe must absolutely always be the evil west.

  • Mike

    @Brett – The Sam part comes from the vegetable Sammy who used to drive around in a Studebaker or Chev bakkie selling vegetables in the white areas. It is where Maggs originates from after the British during the Boer War confiscated the Afrikaners farm called Roosfontein (Boer sympathizes) without compensation in Queensbourgh and sold it to the Indians.
    Not sure where the indian Mary originates from although it might have something to do with the Catholic church.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    June 28, 2013 at 7:49 am

    Hey Mike

    “The Sam part comes from the vegetable Sammy who used to drive around in a Studebaker or Chev bakkie selling vegetables [to the WHITE MONKEYS]. ”

    Hmmm – so that’s where it came from. Thanks Mike.

    Since you don’t know where “Mary” originated Dworky will tell you who to ask. Dworky be kind – give Mike a hint.

    p.s. So the land story is that WHITE people stole land from African people and gave it to WHITE people. Then they stole the land from WHITE people and sold it to Indian people. Then the stole the land from Indian people and gave it to other WHITE people.

    Now I know why god made WHITE people from MUD – these okes were LAND THIEVES!

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    That’s a bit of a let-down, Mike. May I address Maggs as Sam A. Moosa regardless?

  • Mike

    @Brett – yes, if you please

  • Mike

    @Maggs – And that makes Indians accessories, it is just race group that has changed.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    June 28, 2013 at 9:22 am

    Hey Mike,

    “@Maggs – And that makes Indians accessories, it is just race group that has changed.”

    Bullshit.

    WHITE people had a formidable arsenal of bibles, guns and FORKED TONGUES!

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Nkululeko Gwala Murdered in Cato Crest

    Last night Nkululeko Gwala, an Abahlali baseMjondolo member, and a well known and respected housing activist, was murdered in Cato Crest. Twelve shots were fired. The style of this assassination is very similar to the assassination of Thembinkosi Qumbelo, also a well known housing activist (but not an AbM member) who was killed in the same area on the 15th of March this year.

    There are also strong similarities to the attack on our movement in Kennedy Road in 2009.

    There has been a long struggle in Cato Crest against evictions, transit camps and rampant corruption in the housing project. Nkululeko Gwala , along with a large number of comrades from Cato Crest, participated in the Abahlali baseMjondolo UnFreedom Day event in the Kennedy Road settlement in April. In May he joined the movement. We were planning to launch the Cato Crest branch next week.”

    http://www.abahlali.org/

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, I can only say that I am happy that Makaziwe Mandela has pointed out that the foreign media are acting like “RACIST” vultures in their coverage of her Father’s illness.

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    June 28, 2013 at 9:48 am

    Indeed Dworky,

    Nobody published stories of family fights over Thatcher’s million, did they?

  • Mike

    @Maggs – you are starting to talk like Chief Sitting Bull.

  • Gwebecimele

    Under which minister of finance did this microlending ballooned???

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/economy/2013/06/28/manuel-blames-microlending-for-wage-demands

  • Gwebecimele

    Well done Ismail!!!!!!!!! Victory for the small men!

    Well done Concourt!!! The SCA needs more than just transformation.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-06-27-bread-cartels-concourt-ruling-leaves-big-brands-open-to-lawsuits

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Do I have to contemplate before insulting this small-time thug?

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/mayor-bars-da-from-mandela-prayers-1.1538974

  • Deloris Dolittle

    Check out open letter by Richard Poplak to South Africans from the foreign media posted on ewn.co.za – so this is what the foreign press think of us (sorry I can’t post the link from the device I’m using).

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Although I support the prayers for Mr Mandela, it should not distract from our peoples’ demand for the unconditional withdrawal of all IMPERIALIST naval, airforce, Secret Service and Banglashi-born (thanks Brett)!, Presidential forces from South Africa. I say: NO-BAMA!

    Thanks very much.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – APARTHEID was unChristian!….
    June 28, 2013 at 9:00 am

    Hey Brett,

    I saw many WHITE people with bags filled with stolen land hitching to Durban bearing signs “Australia or bust”!

    Are they scared now that Mandela has joined the dearly departed?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Deloris

    I have read the open letter from Mr Poplak.

    Especially as a so-called “foreign correspondent”, he must not come with that WHITE TENDENCY — even where he works!

    He can do that somewhere else – not here Rubbish is what he has in his pants!

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Talking of those white tendencies.

    “We might all love Obama, but many of us white liberals would demand far more from a white person before we would respect them than we would demand from a black person. We just would not realise that we are doing it.”

    Inside Guantanamo Bay: Horrifying pictures show the restraint chairs, feeding tubes and operating theatre used on inmates in terror prison

    “Many of the inmates have been there more than a decade, MOST WITHOUT CHARGE.”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349693/Inside-Guantanamo-Bay-Horrifying-pictures-restraint-chairs-feeding-tubes-operating-theatre-used-inmates-terror-prison.html#ixzz2XW6JYUFf

    How can a “Constitutional Expert” not say a word about this – specially now that Obama is visiting South Africa?

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349693/Inside-Guantanamo-Bay-Horrifying-pictures-restraint-chairs-feeding-tubes-operating-theatre-used-inmates-terror-prison.html#ixzz2XW6El0lM
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue
  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Deloris Dolittle says:
    June 28, 2013 at 13:22 pm

    Tsk tsk tsk! And after having been exposed to Fassbrander for so long too.

    Put on this cone-shaped hat and go stand in the corner!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “But has this led to the feared moral vacuum? The survey suggests not – just that young people get their morality from elsewhere.”

    True South Africans are also getting less religious. The fruits are everywhere. Greed, corruption, drugs, rape, murder … everything is better now now they get their morality from Julius Malema, the EFF and US gangster culture.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2013/06/27/comment-religion-is-in-decline-so-why-are-people-so-well-beh

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    June 28, 2013 at 14:40 pm

    You could learn from somebody who does irony properly.

    P.s. In polite company – like the ANCYL – they are referred to as ‘trousers’!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    And our white liberals favourite house nigger wants to realign US “kill operations” to bring them under supervision of the pentagon where “there is more oversight”. What would Prez Mandela say about such drastic humanitarian reforms!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUJcz0m_41A

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “You could learn from somebody who does irony properly.”

    Funny you should mention that, Brett, because I was just thinking that I should learn to do irony properly. Could you help?

    As to Mr NO-BAMA, if not Bangladesh, where do your sources say this IMPOSTER was really born? East Timor?

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Responses to this column will again illustrate that many white people do not accept or know that this is indeed true. It is exactly this denial that can be so infuriating and so sad. It is sad, because the denial traps some white people in a cycle of fear, anger and guilt. Instead of trying to liberate themselves from the shackles of their own prejudice”

    Hey – I’m getting more and more racist each and everyday and I find it extremely liberating! No fukcing way I’m ever going to feel compelled to “respect” these people because they are black.

    “The move was criticised by several people, who told the Mail & Guardian that athletes had become the casualties of a turf war that has raged on between the two bodies since April. “What is disappointing in all the infighting is that no one is looking out for the interests of athletes,” said Richard Mayer, coach and chairperson of the Lydiard Athletics Club, which is active in Johannesburg’s Alexandra township. “The ongoing battles between Sascoc and ASA are about ego and power, where various individuals with little to offer the sport are desperate to hang on to positions because they are looking to make careers in athletics administration but not to serve the sport,” he said.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-06-27-00-turf-war-rebounds-on-sa-athletes

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett, Mike, OB,

    Driving past the Australian VISA office earlier I saw long, snaking queues of WHITE of people.

    What is happening?

    http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00822/MA31CITY-THEVAR_JAY_822629f.jpg

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    June 28, 2013 at 16:21 pm

    Hey OB,

    “Hey – I’m getting more and more racist each and everyday”

    No – that’s not true.

    You remain as racist as the first time you commented on these blogs!

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    June 28, 2013 at 16:05 pm

    You see? There you go again. You overdo it. Now, if you had abided by the first paragraph….

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    June 28, 2013 at 16:22 pm

    Perhaps they want to go bliksem JR’s silly (You might be next!) media source for pre-empting the former President’s death?

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Ozoneblue says:
    June 28, 2013 at 15:22 pm

    You’re kidding, right?

    Think Pierrot wants to be subjected to a cavity search by a 300-pounder named Matilda next time he flies to the US for a gay wedding?

  • sirjay jonson

    SelloCoast
    June 27, 2013 at 9:04 am

    “By seeking to defeat the legitimate seating black president, those who try, are seeking a come-back victory over the black populace for leading a democratic South Africa.”

    Sorry bro, but this statement is nonsense. Few really care what pigment JZ is. You’d be amazed how many non-blacks would prefer the ANC had excelled. Well they didn’t, and they won’t, and the pres is a shameful example of SA leadership.
    That’s the issue.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ok everyone – time for the lighter side of life!

    Corruption cannot define ANC govt – Zuma

    Corruption should not be so deep-rooted that civil servants expect bribes for doing what they are paid to do, President Jacob Zuma has said. …

    “We must never accept this kind of practice to define the ANC government. That’s why we must all fight this scourge,” Zuma said. …

    “It’s important that we be accountable to the people and say this is what we have done and this is where we failed,” he said.

    http://www.citypress.co.za/politics/corruption-cannot-define-anc-govt-zuma/

  • sirjay jonson

    Hey Prof: good blog this one. I can see you’ve been deeply introspective as usual. Perhaps in another life you were a buddhist monk inspecting your navel. Actually Buddhists concentrate on the tip of the nose, breathing in and out equally, calmly, chanting internally to still the mind, allowing deep seated ideas and visions to arise from the subconscious.

    That aside, there is no greater challenge in SAfrica, in my humble opinion, than the need for integral, far seeing, committed governorship of this fragile, vulnerable country. It doesn’t take a genius, and you can be sure that foreign governments are well aware of SA’s corrupt ruling elite, that SA will not progress (as is possible) to become a country well ruled to the benefit of its people and thus a representative gem for the Africa continent and the world, a valuable player in the community of nation, rather than a taker, a dissapointment, and one more failed state the rest of US (pun) have to deal with.

    Most of us feel impotent under the criminal onslaught of the present regime. Gov’ts anywhere are almost always the strongest component in any country, and here is no exception. Strongly good or strongly lousy.

    Keep up the good fight. The prayers these days of many in the world are not just for Madiba, but for South Africa as a beacon, our hoped for yet slowly declining hope as an answer to racism.

    As for an insult law which I doubt will materialize, my advice is an old adage: Can’t stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen..

  • sirjay jonson

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    June 28, 2013 at 16:05 pm

    Actually Fass, you need to up your satire. I recall many months ago when it was actually interesting.

  • sirjay jonson

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    June 28, 2013 at 16:05 pm

    Perhaps you would now like to sue me for insult, although I didn’t intend it as such.
    Pity to disappoint you but I’m not available for court; I’m safely ensconced in exile somewhere in the mountains over the Columbia river (where is that).

    Thanks for all your comments. Have always enjoyed them.

  • sirjay jonson

    Perhaps when true freedom returns to SAfrica via an honest integral coalition gov’t, I can return to this incredible country and once more participate in its unfoldment.

    I hear a recent survey puts Malema’s EFF (as in F-off) as having 26% support of young people. Ho hum. Undoubedly he would, if receiving this support, coalition with the ANC, power hungry grub that he is. Going to be interesting, 2014, awaiting with cautious and optomistic hope.

    Now that all you misguided DA haters have Agang (who will immediately move into coalition with Helen following the election) there’s actually hope, well sort of, there’s always baby juju as the jokester and spoil maker in this game.

    Oh how wonderfully fabulous and interesting is SAfrica politics. Never any boredom.

    Really though, wishing you all the best. May the good and well intentioned win.

    And may the wonderful amazing people of SAfrica know true and beneficial freedom. Its a wonderful world when your government truly cares for you.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett/Sirjay

    I find it sad that, as the only remaining consistent supporter of the ANC left on this blog (and yes, I am aware that the party has its faults) — I should be dismissed as an inept ironist. And Brett, seriously now, what country was Mr Obama really born in? Given his rabidly pro-Muslim policies, it must have been a Muslim country. But which one?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    I propose a NEW MOBEEMENT.

    Bleck Unconsciousness.

    Any questions?

    Just – vote for me – i have 0.00000089 % of dte vote.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “I hear a recent survey puts Malema’s EFF (as in F-off) as having 26% support of young people. Ho hum”

    Pls muffle yor typical afripesssim latin boolshit.

    Malema epitomises the great African spirit – the people are UNHAPPY, and ANGRY (as always) … den dey will GRAP WHAT DEY CAN GRAP.

    DA low hang fruit.

    Without having to jump too high.

    It is the traditional African way.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    But lets celebrate the DEAD black president.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbh1_ncqcas

    All of us.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    June 29, 2013 at 0:04 am

    Mr Soetoro’s mama was The Company and his daddy was a Kenyan so he is hardly a natural born US citizen which disqualifies him from being President of the US even had he not been born in Kenya.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Yes. Never mind the DEAD black president. This is the truth now.

    “Trade union Solidarity today insisted that affirmative action be abolished in the public service, following Public Service and Administration Minister Lindiwe Sisulu’s response to a parliamentary question yesterday that the whole public service has been transformed and reflects the country’s demographic composition. According to Dirk Groenewald, Head of Solidarity’s Centre for Fair Labour Practices, the minister’s statement implies that the constitutional objective of ‘broad’ representation in the public service in terms of section 195(1)(i) as well as the goal of ‘fair’ representation as embodied in section 2(b) of the Employment Equity Act have been reached. ‘South Africa, as a party to the international Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,is now obliged to do away with affirmative action in the public service.”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=386829&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “While Obama and his aides have downplayed comparisons to Mandela, the timing of the trip has turned symbolic — the first U.S. black president visiting the home country of South Africa’s first black president with the world anxiously monitoring Mandela’s health.”

    Some serious food for thought there.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WZ33w3B8Hw

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    LOL. A bunch of White liberals discussing “human rights” in Africa.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOcDfMBq9VI

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “[Obama is] disqualified from being President of the US even had he not been born in Kenya.”

    With respek, Brett, you are muddying the waters here. Everyone knows Barry was not born in Kenya. I have proof that Barry was born in EAST TIMOR. Do you want to see the proof?

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    June 29, 2013 at 22:08 pm

    Why don’t you go tell your granny? To ask his granny? She said he was born in Kenya.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/whoisobama.htm

    The most reasonable explanation?

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Swak, Rapport! Klomp gatkruipers! Vieslike vuil ‘progressiewes’!

    http://www.rapport.co.za/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Steve-vat-n-kans-oor-wit-moorde-20130629

    Sunette gee julle pak nou sluit julle die kommentaar?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Brett, I did ask my GRANNY. She confirms that Mr Obama was born into a fanatical Al Quade cell in East Timor. She also says to thank you for posting a site clarifying that Mr Obama is simultaneously a Marxist ideologue and an Islamic fundamentalist sympathizer. She says that it is now clear that Obama has launched many more drone strikes against Islamic leaders than Bush ever did only as “cover” for the fact that he supports radical Islam in his heart!

    Thanks from my GRANNY.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    @mfd

    “US President Barack Obama has praised Nelson Mandela as “an inspiration to the world” while visiting South Africa.”

    Hey mfd. I’m sure Mr. Mandela, if he could still speak for himself would have noted the irony. Years back Mr. Mandela was he worlds no.1 terrorist too – in fact many of his contemporaries still features on USA homeland security terror list, however at least he got a fair trail before the Apartheid regime locked him up at Guatanamo Island.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….
    June 30, 2013 at 10:13 am

    But even the Rapport could not deny the facts.

    “Op plase gaan dit inderdaad swaar: die moordkoers op boere is meer as drie keer ­hoër as die nasionale gemiddelde. In ’n studie deur die Instituut vir Sekerheidstudie (ISS) is bevind die moordkoers op boere was in 2011-’12 98,8 per 100 000 – meer as drie keer hoër as die nasionale koers van 30,9 en hoër as die moordkoers in Honduras (91,6) – die gevaarlikste land ter wêreld.”

    And that is while Juliua Malema and his EFF are running around singing “kill the boer” and Andile Mngxitama is reminding us of the armageddon coming our why. Nobody is denying that we now have only 30000 farmers left of the 60000 that we had in 1994. That fact in itslef is ample evidence of a politically motivated genocide, a state in an low intensity guerrilla war against its own citizens.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Another dead boer – PdV and his White liberals have something to celebrate!

    Shot dead as he protected his family

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/shot-dead-as-he-protected-his-family-1.1539457

  • Boertjie

    @OB, murders on farmers are in my opinion robberies that turn into hate-crimes, not genocide. For it to constitute genocide you need evidence of direct organizational involvement in actually facilitating the murders.

    And “kill the boer” doesn’t count because it is an attempt at rousing up hate against whites – thus an attempt at polarization. Its not (yet) an attempt at actually mobilizing people against farmers.

    If the Western Cape unrest included deliberate murder of farmers, then that would’ve been genocide (because of the unions’ involvement in actually mobilizing the masses into violence).

    Just some circumstantial evidence supporting the notion that farmmurders include hate crimes…

    1) the disproportional murder of farmers (excluding their families) – as you have noted

    2) the 2003-farm-attack study that noted that farm-attackers are always unemployed uneducated black youth that comes from a dysfunctional family background

    3) surveys showing that Malema’s support resides among the unemployed black youth

    The conclusion is thus that farm-attackers come from a sector of society that is especially polarized against white farmers. Circumstantial evidence of hate-crimes.

  • Boertjie

    And as for murder rates…while farmers face a higher murder rate than police in SA, that murder rate is still nothing compared to the true horror of genocide.

    To illustrate, the murder rate during the Rwandan genocide….in 2002, Rwanda had 8.1 mil people. The Rwandan genocide killed 800000 in 100 days. At that rate 2.92 mil people would’ve been murdered in a year. That gives us a murder rate of ((2.92/8.1)*100000=) 36000 per 100000. That is horror beyond comprehension.

    Make no mistake, I believe farmmurders are more that “ordinary” crime, but I don’t think it is genocide.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 11:24 am

    “And “kill the boer” doesn’t count because it is an attempt at rousing up hate against whites – thus an attempt at polarization. Its not (yet) an attempt at actually mobilizing people against farmers.”

    But Andile Mngxitama for example is directly involved with mobalising landless people and the “human rights” organisation for which he is the “policy advisor” receives funding from the SA government.

    Then we have this growing phenomena of “zero quotas” as with SAA – the logic and eventual conclusion of that is that whites should be systematically excluded from economical participation for the next 30 to 300 years – this combined with the continuing racial mobalisation of the masses against a tiny ethnic minority that has little access to state power to me all factors that need to be taken in consideration – especially clause c of Convention on the Prevention and
    Punishment of Genocide.

    “(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;”

  • Boertjie

    I agree with you in broad terms.

    “But Andile Mngxitama for example is directly involved with mobalising landless people and the “human rights” organisation for which he is the “policy advisor” receives funding from the SA government.”

    I’m not completely up to date with Andile Mngxitama. If his attempts at mobilizing landless people are, lets say, vilification of whites via speeches and public rhetoric, then it is attempts at polarization (on Genocide Watch’s early warning model, which I see you are familiar with). If his mobilization of the landless include active attempts at organizing, lets say, land-invasions, then it would count as early forms of preparation (GWs model).

    (I image-googled Andile and recognised him. He was doing this kind of mobilization since the early 2000′s)

    And I agree that the complete exclusion of whites is the eventual goal, according to NDR-thinking.

    “(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;”

    I guess the question whether an attempt at genocide is occurring or not would (based on this definition) depend on what exactly is meant by “physical destruction”. Complete exclusion of whites does not equal “physical destruction” of the white group in SA.

    What I do say is that the NDR-goal of exclusion of whites may become a goal of “destruction” of whites.

    I can go on and on, but the bottom line of my arguments is that, while I believe there is a RISK of genocide, I do do NOT think genocide is actually happening in SA at present.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    “I can go on and on, but the bottom line of my arguments is that, while I believe there is a RISK of genocide, I do do NOT think genocide is actually happening in SA at present.”

    So with all the alarms bells ringing and all the danger signs flashing red then should we continue to sit around and wait until it happens? How many Whites and Indians are left in Zimbabwe or anywhere else in Sub Saharan Africa for that matter?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    And the same Nechama Brodie who challenged Hofmeyer’s rant.

    “Many must have – at least tacitly – agreed. In the 48 hours I engaged with Mfeka, I did not see a single black person on my feed enter the fray to challenge his views. I found this unusual and telling.”

    http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/trolling-for-land/

    Same issue I had on the M&Gs Mngxiatma on white genocide column. Not a single black person seemed to voice any misgivings or disagreed.

  • Boertjie

    Ahhh! The million dollar question! …

    $$$$$$ What should we do? $$$$$$

    Well, lets hear it from you first. What would you do to try to make things better?

    (and as for alarm bells and flashing warning signs…shortly before the Western Cape riots…I was actually warning someone that this was going to happen. Just wanted to say…)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 13:22 pm

    Ahhh! The million dollar question! …

    We must renegotiate 1994.

    We were lied to – not only by Mandela and the ANC, but by the entire contingent of White liberals (of which I was one) who tried to convince “conservative whites” whom were all petrified of exactly this situation to give up control of the state and the security forces for a nonracial dispensation where everybody would have equal human rights and we could live together in peace.

  • Boertjie

    “We must renegotiate 1994.”

    How?

    The what-to-do’s that I pursue include (but are not limited to) the SAIRR’s recommendations, which are…

    1) Highlight to a very wide audience the damage, risks and unsustainability of current policies (and their connection to ideological thinking)

    2) Continually propose viable alternatives. (promote the growth of the economic pie instead of redistributing it)

    3) Defend vital practices and institutions – like property rights (especially property rights, judging by the past few years’ developments).

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Partition. The embarrassing S235. That is the only solution.

    The problem I have with the way you interpret the 8 stages is that if genocide is not complete it is not genocide under your scheme. Therefore one can never speak of ‘attempted genocide’ which I believe is as far as it can ever go here. I believe this country is highly predisposed to genocide.
    There are many factors at play here which I view as making the successful completion of genocide highly unlikely but the idea of a perfect model where every box is ticked is a non-starter IMHO. Any case, that perfect picture can only be the product of hindsight. Rwanda is a small country – it is easy if all the bodies are stacked in churches to say – ‘ah, genocide!’

    Even if someone was doing the research here – which they are not – Sunette is trying….But …. No-one is keeping accurate statistics of white homicide victimisation although the murder of farmers is relatively properly collated. Besides which you are not going to get the same picture with a geographically large area with sparse population.

    Dr Stanton said wrt the farming community we are at Stage 6. Shouldn’t we be reading between the lines? Why can’t we be at Stage 6 on the Pretoria East plots or Mnandi and Knoppieslaagte and at Stage 5 in Centurion?

    Boertjie says:
    June 30, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    “while I believe there is a RISK of genocide, I do do NOT think genocide is actually happening in SA at present.”

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    June 30, 2013 at 10:27 am

    I’ve had to paste the part I wanted you to focus on below….Sadly….Hopefully…

    Are you denying that his first unpublished biography had him born in Kenya? How about his foreign student aid? Do you think Pierre could get us copies of what he (Barry) published while President of Harvard Law Review?

    Not saying I agree with Jeff’s opinion. I say Barry’s mama was Company back in the day when the CIA was made up of people born into the CIA dynasties.
    Today the Company is a somewhat different animal focussed solely on the well being of the State of Israel, with the CIA bagmen being led around by people like your good self……

    MOSSAD GUYS!

    “Obama’s mother was a wild, flowerchild…raised of fairly lenient and liberal parents, who went out into the world at an early age, oft times to poor third world countries, and exercised what was termed “free love,” of the day.

    I believe she got pregnant by Obama’s Kenyan father, Barack Obama, and that the son, Barack Hussein Obama was actually born in Kenya. I believe that the grandparents, concerned for the welfare of their daughter and now for their new grandson, got her to quickly bring Barack back to America where they used whatever influence they could to get his birth to show having occurred in Hawaii for the sake of their grandchild…which sentiment I can easily understand having eight grandchildren of my own.

    No conspiracy to make him President or anything like that, they just wanted to get him in the best position he could be in to face life and have a better chance because of that blessed citizenship.

    After the father, Barrack Obama deserted the family, Obama’s mother took up with and married Lolo Soetoro, an Indonesiaon Islamic, and off to Indonesia they went, where Obama was clearly raised as a Muslim with the name Barry Soetoro. His own words, the records, etc. all indicate that this is so and it influenced his life because he remained there until he was 10-11 years old, old enough for it to have influenced his early development significantly. I believe at this time in life he developed the feeling that the Muslim “call to prayer,” was one of the most “beautfiul sounds on earth,” as he would later tell a reporter during an interview.

    Then his Mom left Soetoro and brought Barack back to the United States…and ultimately abandonned him to be raised by his grandparents. And they raised him as best they could given their own background and beliefs.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….
    June 30, 2013 at 13:58 pm

    Partition. The embarrassing S235. That is the only solution.

    Correct. It would be interesting to see how the De Klerk foundation views this, but certainly they must have seen this coming long time ago.

    “White South Africans should wake up to the unpleasant fact that they are the main target of the NDR. Their government has launched a multi-faceted campaign to undermine their legitimate interests and rights on the basis of their race. They are like the proverbial frogs in the pot: the water is simmering and the ANC is turning up the heat.”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71656?oid=380261&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 13:48 pm

    I do not agree with you (and others like you) on your obsession with property rights, it appears like you constantly highjack the very rational and legitimate concerns of whites and other minorities about their future in South Africa on what is mostly an elitist capitalist agenda. We don’t need “property rights” to blur our ideal of a nonracial South Africa. A very tiny minority of whites (less than 1%) actually own any property besides the usual home loan, why we should give a shit about your “property rights” when our kids are increasingly marginalised (whether they own property or not) because of their race I don’t know or understand.

  • Boertjie

    @Brett…I don’t completely follow, but I think you mean that by “complete” genocide you mean the murder of a whole group. I am very aware of the “in whole or in part” -part of the definition of genocide. If a genocide starts and is stopped dead in its tracks, then it remains genocide.

    And I agree that you’ll probably never get a perfect early warning model for genocide.

    And yes, we are predisposed to genocide. Barbara Harff’s risk-assessment model measures country’s predisposition to genocide. Take a look at this…

    http://www.gpanet.org/webfm_send/120

    Of interest are risk factors nos. 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7. To cut to the chase and skip the research, SA gets a genocide-risk score of 10 on Harff’s model.

  • Boertjie

    @OB Please explain to me what exactly the connection is between emphasizing the importance of security of possession of your property and highjacking of “the very rational and legitimate concerns of whites and other minorities about their future in South Africa on what is mostly an elitist capitalist agenda.”?

  • Boertjie

    Oh yes…

    “A very tiny minority of whites (less than 1%) actually own any property”

    reference of some sort please?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 14:33 pm

    I distinguished between home loan owners – people who owns a home in some residential form and the land ownership issue. As I understand it the big issue abot “property rights” is actually about land ownership. The demagogues calling for a redistribution of land are referring to to the latter.

    “It must be expected that many of the proponents of land reform and redistribution would still make the point that having 50% of land in the hands of 10% of the population is unfair and unjust and must be changed. Here they should tread carefully. The bulk of this 50% is in all probability in the hands of commercial farmers. There are only an estimated 30 000 of these farmers left in South Africa down from 60 000 fifteen years ago. This averages out to approximately 1 500 hectares per farming unit in 2010 up from 750 hectares at the time of South Africa’s political transition. This figure would of course vary greatly from one region of the country to the next but it is a plausible average figure.”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71639?oid=282525&sn=Detail&pid=71639

    So a very simple calculation 30000/4.2 mil = 0.71% of the entire white population actually “owns land” as understood above. But I understand what your agenda is – same as Brett : you want to highjack the concerns about the future of the ordinary white so as to use it as a propaganda bulwark against having to let go of your very real and tangible white privileges inherited, in many instances from Apartheid. It is same game the racist elite in the ANC is playing – rough generalisation whites are like this (rich) blacks are like that (poor) and so on and so forth. But you are in fact talking on behalf of a very tiny multiracial capitalist elite, the rest is manipulation and racial mobilisation.

  • Boertjie

    Ahhhh, by “property” you mean “land”. OK, I get it.

    By “property” I understood things like businesses, land, homes, financial assets, etc.

    As for the importance of property rights (with relation to my much broader view of what property is)…

    http://www.sairr.org.za/sairr-today-1/research-and-policy-brief-property-rights-new-threats-lost-opportunities-and-new-challenges-31st-march-2011

    And please try to remember, my concerns around property rights goes farther than just land-ownership.

    And do you perhaps assume that secure property rights is my ONLY concern for South Africa and its minorities?

    And might I point out that I am the one keeping calm and rational and that you are the one resorting to a accusations and a conspiracy theory about me wanting to push some kind of propaganda and that I’m talking on behalf of a very tiny multiracial capitalist elite and all that stuff you wrote that I don’t really understand?

    And as an afterthought…

    “very real and tangible white privileges inherited”

    …now we are beginning to get on the same page of what “property” is.

  • Boertjie

    And what is the very rational and legitimate concerns of whites and other minorities that you accuse me of wanting to hijack, OB?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Brett

    “Do you think Pierre could get us copies of what he (Barry) published while President of Harvard Law Review?”

    Brett, there are many trenchant criticisms one could direct at Obama. He has turned his back on many of his promises made in his campaign – closing Guantanamo is just one example.

    So why do the American “birther” sources you cite waste their time with conspiracy theories about the place of his birth? No only that, but they insult the intelligence of readers with flat out untruths — like the suggestion in the piece that you cite did not publish in the Harvard Law Review. It is just silly of birthers to write stuff that anyone with any legal research resources at their disposal can show to be wrong.

    Obama published “Supreme Court Of Illinois Refuses To Recognize Cause Of Action Brought By Fetus Against Its Mother For Unintentional Infliction Of Prenatal Injuries”, Harvard Law Review (1990). This is not another lie invented by Obama’s propagandists. The article is there, on paper, in English, in ink. Look it up on line, or in your nearest law library!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 15:28 pm

    I have never seen the ANC or anybody else at any point in time claiming they want to confiscate your home or your clothes or your car. They have only touched on the subject of “property” with regards to mineral wealth and land. Not even in USSR did the government ever threaten these things that we call “individual property”.

    So I maintain your continued and deliberate conflation of white’s future and natural rights to full citizenship with “property rights” is alarmist – political manipulation and serves the agenda of the very same capitalist elite that sold out whites to this new race-obsessed and potentially genocidal regime.

  • Michael Osborne

    “… [that Obama] did not publish in the Harvard Law Review”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Smallish Farmer

    Fact is, OzoneGuy and Brett are right. I read that that 67,000 whites who have been GENOCIDED off their land are now huddled in the ice-cold army tents on Marion Island. Also, were you aware that GENOCIDE Watch is about to raise the GENOCIDE ranking to 11 on the Richter scale?

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 15:49 pm

    “And what is the very rational and legitimate concerns of whites and other minorities that you accuse me of wanting to hijack, OB?”

    Full equal rights and access to primary, secondary and higher education and employment opportunities. That is all I want and need.

    It has fokkol to do with “owning the mineral wealth” or “the land”. But that is the trade off for you – aint it. With all this racist AA/BEE that discriminates against poor and middle class whites like me in the name of a “revolution” you hope to buy enough influence and power so you can hold on to your stolen property.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    June 30, 2013 at 16:02 pm

    hey mfd – how many whites are left in Zimbabwe. Do you think they were “genocided” or perhaps just ethnically cleansed?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OzoneGuy

    I do not know how many WHITISTS live in Zim. Perhaps Brett can tell us.

    As for your second question, of course they were GENOCIDED. “Ethnic cleansing” is a feeble, open-ended weasel phrase that I reject.

    Thanks.

  • Boertjie

    People…OB has lost it.

    It seems that to him, the defence of the property rights of ALL South Africans (farmers. mining companies, hawkers and shackdwellers included) and counteracting discrimination against whites are mutually exclusive. Gasp!

    OB, my last word to you on property rights is : Go and read up the entire SAIRR website.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 16:26 pm

    “OB, my last word to you on property rights is : Go and read up the entire SAIRR website.”

    Please. The SAIIR is an elitist, apartheid era institution, a sell-out, reactionary mouth piece for those, including the African nationalists, who want to defend and maintain racialism and race discrimination in South Africa in order to defend their class privilege. That is why they underplayed and even tried to discredit John Simpson’s recent BBC article questioning if less privileged whites do have any sort of future in South Africa – the answer to that is abundantly clear – NO.

  • Boertjie

    @OB…I’ve just read both articles. While Simpson’s article placed focus on the poor and struggling portion of whites, the SAIRR’s article emphasized the more prosperous portion of whites.

    In any case, I don’t see any contradiction between the data the articles cite. Just differences in which data is emphasized.

    That being said, I don’t completely agree 100% with the SAIRR’s writings, but in any case, they are a good place to start reading.

    And as for your attack on the SAIRR, please do not stop with that kind of talk. It serves as an informative preview of what one can expect should one consider attempting a rational conversation with you.

  • Boertjie

    And did you read my first comment on this thread? I said :

    “I guess we are all prisoners of our worldviews to some degree…some people more than others.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Boertjie
    June 30, 2013 at 17:45 pm

    “@OB…I’ve just read both articles. While Simpson’s article placed focus on the poor and struggling portion of whites, the SAIRR’s article emphasized the more prosperous portion of whites.”

    Nonsense. Frans Cronje, like the DA, went out of his way to discredit the BBC Simpsons article try and reinforce the ANC racial stereotype that whites are all rich and blacks are all poor. There is reason why this is done too, this is because the elite in the ANC, DA, SAIRR are all port of the same capitalist ruling class with vested interest in obfuscating white poverty and the real extent of this government sponsored racist onslaught against Whites “as the enemy” in the target of the “second phase”.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….
    June 30, 2013 at 13:58 pm

    Hey Brett,

    Are you competing with Ozone guy?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, do you share the fury felt by both Brett and myself at the sheer hypocrisy of Mr Obama piously invoking the legacy of Madiba at UCT – having so recently entered our country on a FORGED passport denying his birth in a radical MUSLIM infirmary in EAST TIMOR?

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    I see liewe Pierretjie is wanking himself into a frenzy on the Obama trip. How sad that he doesn’t ask questions either, most notably what Mandela would say about Guatanamo bay, detention without trial, torture, and drones strikes on civilians. Also on MNET Carte Blanche feature not a single word about any of this.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Michael Osborne says:
    June 30, 2013 at 15:55 pm

    Well done, Michael! The point goes to you – Obama published an article as president of Harvard Law Review. Really, he was the author of his own misfortune, wouldn’t you say, sealing all his records?

    Any idea why he would tell people he was born in Kenya, or why he received foreign student aid while studying at Harvard?

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Ozoneblue says:
    June 30, 2013 at 18:50 pm

    Onthou jy hoe vinnig Rapport verlede week kommentaar gesluit het toe lesers begin getuig hoe swaar dit met van ons mense gaan? Miskien skaam hulle hulself tog oor die gevolge van hulle kompromiee?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    June 30, 2013 at 15:55 pm

    Hey Pro MO,

    “they insult the intelligence of readers with flat out untruths”

    That’s assuming that the Birthers appeal to those with reasonable intelligence – they (meaning Brett-alikes) ought to feel very complimented.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….
    July 1, 2013 at 6:59 am

    “Onthou jy hoe vinnig Rapport verlede week kommentaar gesluit het toe lesers begin getuig hoe swaar dit met van ons mense gaan? Miskien skaam hulle hulself tog oor die gevolge van hulle kompromiee?”

    I think they have a political instruction to keep white people uninformed, naive, in a slumber, “moderate” still bathing in the warm afterglow of the “rainbow nation” myth – because if white people had to wake up to the truth, especially looking into the future then the reality may be to hard to bare and could lead to serious “political instability”. It should therefore be our mission to wake white people up so that they can now be prepared for “the Armageddon that those whites Schutte derides for being paranoid know awaits in some historical corner.”

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    If one agrees with the logic of your argument then those whites who corrupt black officials should be stood against a wall and shot for treason.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….
    July 1, 2013 at 9:13 am

    “If one agrees with the logic of your argument then those whites who corrupt black officials should be stood against a wall and shot for treason.”

    True enough. These are also the sort of Whites, Coloureds, Indians who are the most “liberal”, the only “minorities” left in the ANC (besides for the poor whites they are now bussing in to their meetings). You would find that they are usually very corrupt, very privileged and buy themsleves favour with the African nationalists – think Bill Rautenbach, John Bredenkamp types in Zimbabwe.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Yes, the appeasers are just as bad.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Brett

    “The point goes to you – Obama published an article as president of Harvard Law Review. Really, he was the author of his own misfortune, wouldn’t you say, sealing all his records?”

    No, Brett. It is no excuse for persisting in spreading patent falsehoods to say that the record were sealed, so you did not know any better. I was able to find the citation to Obama’s article within five minutes. Anyone with basic research skills could do the same. So, my question of yesterday stands: given that there are actual live issues as to which Obama is vulnerable, why do Birthers waste time concocting falsehoods about his past that can so readily be contradicted? Do they lack any sense of embarrassment?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Brett! Do not concede the LIE about Obama’s so-called HLR article so quickly! A friend of mine, a librarian at UCT, tells me they last week caught some American guy (probably part of Obama’s advance team), surreptitiously splicing in the pages containing the “article” into their only copy of the 1990 Harvard Law Review. Apparently, the Secret Service has been doing to same in law libraries around the world Are there NO limits to what Obama will do to retrospectively create a legitimate record of his murky Muslim past?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    July 1, 2013 at 10:55 am

    “given that there are actual live issues as to which Obama is vulnerable”

    You must talking about indefinite detention without trail, torture and state sponsored terrorism? Why do you allude to it then but not voice any concerns about it? I would have imagined if it was the Apartheid regime indulging in such gratuitous human rights abuses against the likes of ANC “terrorists” you and Pierre would be up in arms and protesting to high heavens.

    No?

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    OKDK, Michael, I see where you are headed with this.

    What contended facts about his past are you willing to stipulate to?

    His Kenyan granny claiming he was born in Kenya?

    That Barack Obama acknowledges he was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii in the biography “Journies in Black and White,” produced in 1991?

    That his certification of live birth is SEALED?

    The handful of social security numbers?

    That the certified copy of his original birth certificate is SEALED?

    That he received Foreign Student Aid?

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    July 1, 2013 at 11:05 am

    Why don’t you go find us all the other articles he had published?

  • Gwebecimele

    I take my hat off for Theo Botha. If I was President he deserves an award for looking out after our pension/investments for free against greedy bonobos.

    http://www.iol.co.za/business/companies/name-blame-contract-riggers-1.1539759

  • Michael Osborne

    Brett, I repeat my earlier question, which I did not mean rhetorically. If the Birthers, for whatever reason, want to go after Obama, why not focus on the obvious contemporary stuff, to which OB makes reference?

    As for the other questions, I really do not have the time to research and stipulate to each allegation, because I assume some might not be as speedily dismissed as the nonsense about him not having published in the HLR. I can only suggest that the fact that your sources have got such a simple thing so patently wrong should lead you, to do some independent research, rather than rely upon the birther literature. For example, have you ever taken the trouble to actually find the 1991 book to which you refer, and see whether Obama in fact says he was born in Kenya?

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    If there was no issue on Obama’s birth details, why are they withheld?

    I have no idea why they would be, just that it is illegal for a foreign-born person to become president of the US. That’s why Arnie cannot run for president.

    And if Obama is actually foreign-born, that creates a constitutional crisis of such magnitude it is frightening. Each and every action he took is possibly nullified.

    Besides, if a foreign-born president is then OK’d to overcome the constitutional nightmare, Arnie can run for president! I could think of nothing funnier than Arnie’s presidential speeches!

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Michael Osborne says:
    July 1, 2013 at 11:52 am

    You know why the critics are going after the coverup rather than the original sin, Michael. If Obama had admitted to the fact that his lawyers simply did not know the law and do the homework right up to the time he was already in the race the American people might very well have forgiven him. Its the coverup that kills ‘em.

    Of course I have not found “Journies in Black and White” I prefer the lazy arm-chair critic tactic of homing in on the fact that Obama did not dispute that dust-jacket until he was in the Senate.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    ZooKeeper, I think the principle was probably that the Founding Fathers did not want a First Citizen with divided loyalties – fealty owed to a foreign power.

    P.s. I could – ‘W’s speeches?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Brett:

    “You know why the critics are going after the cover-up rather than the original sin, Michael.”

    But unless there is an “original sin” there is nothing to “cover up”. That is why I would have thought that birthers and people like you who cite them should at least do elementary research into the underlying event. Otherwise, your credibility may be strained when it is shown that the underlying allegation was baseless, as I was easily able to show with respect to his HLR publication.

    “Of course I have not found “Journies in Black and White” I prefer the lazy arm-chair critic tactic …”

    Then perhaps you should not ask me to stipulate to facts that you have not at least made some initial enquiries about. Why could you not have said that is “alleged” that Obama admitted he was born in Kenya?

    Do you have the page cite in the 1991 biography where Obama allegedly made his “admission” re being born in Kenya? Or are you too “lazy” even to find that?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    The problem for Obama is not that his lawyers didn’t do their homework, its that he has to be withdrawn from the presidency and his VP should take over. It says volumes about the Republicans that they haven’t gone for this one and impeached him.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zookeeper

    I see you are also something of a birther. Before I consider responding to your allegations, could you offer an assurance that you have (unlike the self-confessedly lazy-armchair Brett), attempted at least some minimal investigation, rather than simply parroting what appears on birther sites. I ask you to do that because it is just a waste of everyone’s time to track stuff that turns out to be patently false, hyperbole, illogical inference, etc.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    I’m a lazy arm-chair critic but all those years of martial arts training have taught me when to bow to a master.

    Michael, did you at least click on the link I provided (provided again below)and have a look at the scan of the dust jacket?

    http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/whoisobama.htm

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Zoo Keeper says:
    July 1, 2013 at 13:11 pm

    Yes, that is why we call them Republicrats!

    (OK, one of thousands of reasons…)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    July 1, 2013 at 11:52 am

    “Brett, I repeat my earlier question, which I did not mean rhetorically. If the Birthers, for whatever reason, want to go after Obama, why not focus on the obvious contemporary stuff, to which OB makes reference?”

    That is because Brett and friends quietly condone what is happening at Guantanamo. Until such day that rightwing “terrorists” get their turn in the torture chambers at Robben Island – then it would be a completely different story of course.

  • Michael Osborne

    Brett, yes I did look at the link. You said earlier that Obama had acknowledged his birth in a 1991 book. But now you switch to claim appeared on the “dust jacket” of the book. Here are some problems with your allegation:

    1. No such book was never published.

    2. As even the birther site you quote acknowledges, the claim was not made by Obama, and never has been.

    3. It did not appear in any book,ever, but in a promotional brochure, the writer of which says it was a mistake – so even you revised claim, that it appeared on the book’s dust jacket, is demonstrably false.

    Moreover, without checking these facts, you should have known that Obama never made the “admission” he was born in Kenya in any “book”, for at least two reasons. First, he was at that very time saying that he was born in the U.S. Do you think he would be so careless as to be making two contradictory claims contemporaneously? Second, if the “admission” had been made by Obama in a book, you can be sure that copies of that page would have been seized upon by the birthers and published everywhere.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Honestly – who gives a flying fuck were he was born? If he was born in the USA and did nothing about Guantanamo or the drone campaigns in rural areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan – would it have made one iota of difference?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    ” that is why we call them Republicrats!”

    With respect, you are tarring all Republicans with the same brush. What about TEA PARTY Republicans (like Cheryl Bachman and Sarah Palin), who demand the distribution of guns to all and sundry, want Mr Obama impeached for LYING about being born in EAST TIMOR, are convinced that women can voluntarily expel their rapists’ semen; and (in the case of Governor Palin), could see RUSSIA from their porch?

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OzoneGuy

    “Who gives a flying fuck were he was born?”

    With respect, as Brett has been at pains to point out, and as in Watergate, it is the COVER UP that exposes Mr Obama as a LIAR. Why doesn’t he just admit that he is a radical Muslim who is hell bent on replacing the Federal Code with SHARIA law?

    Thanks.

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    I ain’t a “birther” (whatever that means), I just understand the US to have a law which disqualifies any foreign-born person from holding the office of US president.

    Let’s take that out of the debate first.

    Is there such a law?

    If not, end of story and it makes no difference where Obama was born.

    If there is – where Obama was born does matter a whole lot as he may be holding office illegally. All Obama has to do is disclose his birth certificate and the conspiracy theory is over.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Zookeeper

    “I ain’t a “birther” (whatever that means)”

    1. The term “birthed” is a term common in U.S. political discourse for someone who seriously disputes that Obama was born in the U.S.

    2. You are right that there is a provision that President be born in the U.S. – it is in the Constitution.

    3. Re the birth certificate, he has disclosed it – see
    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa.

    (Of course, the birthers will allege that Fact Check is a lying liberal Obama tool. That argument is undermined by the fact that the body has checked very many Democrat claims and found them to be false. Note, for example, that near the top of its website is a finding that Obama’s statement re background checks on gun sales is false.)

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    If his birth certificate is genuine then there is simply no issue. It is up to the birthers to prove that what he has disclosed is indeed false.

    I have difficulty believing this would be the case, considering that before he took office the Republicans under Bush had all the means necessary at their disposal to verify this. That they didn’t bring this out during the first race must show to the reasonable on-looker that there is nothing untoward.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    July 1, 2013 at 17:37 pm

    Hey ZooKy,

    “the reasonable on-looker”.

    Ok so that rules out Brett!

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Zoo Keeper says:
    July 1, 2013 at 17:37 pm

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-certificate-a-fraud/

    That is just my favourite source. There are hundreds on the net. You will even find video of people lifting the layers of the photoshopped birth certificate the White House released. I just get by with photoshop but, if you know it well, you can do it yourself.

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Michael Osborne says:
    July 1, 2013 at 14:49 pm

    “Brett, yes I did look at the link. You said earlier that Obama had acknowledged his birth in a 1991 book.”
    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century…. says:
    June 30, 2013 at 14:14 pm
    Are you denying that his first unpublished biography had him born in Kenya?

    “But now you switch to claim appeared on the “dust jacket” of the book.”
    Yes! I say that scan which you say was to be a brochure was going to be the back page of the dust jacket of the unpublished biography “Journies in Black and White,” produced in 1991! (Only, I would hope they would have corrected the spelling of ‘Journies’)

    “Here are some problems with your allegation:
    1. No such book was never published.”
    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century…. says:
    June 30, 2013 at 14:14 pm
    Are you denying that his first unpublished biography had him born in Kenya?

    “2. As even the birther site you quote acknowledges, the claim was not made by Obama, and never has been.”
    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century…. says:
    June 29, 2013 at 19:56 pm
    Mr Soetoro’s mama was The Company and his daddy was a Kenyan so he is hardly a natural born US citizen which disqualifies him from being President of the US even had he not been born in Kenya.

    And

    Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century…. says:
    June 29, 2013 at 22:39 pm
    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    June 29, 2013 at 22:08 pm
    Why don’t you go tell your granny? To ask his granny? She said he was born in Kenya.

    “3. It did not appear in any book,ever, but in a promotional brochure, the writer of which says it was a mistake – so even you revised claim, that it appeared on the book’s dust jacket, is demonstrably false.”
    You said book. I said “the unpublished biography “Journies in Black and White” “. Easy for the ‘writer’ of ‘a promotional brochure’ (which I say bears an uncanny resemblance to the precis to be found on the back page of the dust jacket of a biography) to deny and delegitimise the ‘error’ once the potential became apparent.

    You might want to withdraw the innuendo about deliberate falsehood.

    “Moreover, without checking these facts, you should have known that Obama never made the “admission” he was born in Kenya in any “book”,”
    Silence is assent, Michael. He allowed the precis in the (you say)’brochure’ which I say was going to be the back page of the dust jacket of the unpublished biography “Journies in Black and White,” to go uncorrected for how long?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Brett

    Brett, you wrote yesterday:

    “Barack Obama acknowledges he was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii in the biography “Journies in Black and White,” produced in 1991?”

    You were flatly wrong – just as you were wrong about him not having published in the Harvard Law Review. It is useless to continue this discussion unless you can bring yourself admit that you were wrong.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    Brett is right re Obama.

    BTW, he is not the only head of state seemingly born in distant climes. I saw an internet site quoting a pamphlet in an email confirming that, in his 1993 book, “When Elephants Fight” (1985), Mr Zuma admits he was born in a heated compound just outside of Rabat (Morocco)! Granted, I am too tired right now to look up the book. But Mr Zuma has not denied it — so it must be true!)

    Thanks Brett!

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    July 2, 2013 at 14:20 pm

    Dworky,

    “I saw an internet site quoting a pamphlet in an email confirming that”

    That’s nothing!

    While staring at old tea leaves, I saw a vision of Brett’s GRANNY saying that WHITE people stole all the land!

    WDYSTT, eh?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hmmm!

    Julius Malema apologised on Tuesday to President Jacob Zuma for remarks he made about the ANC leader

    “At times we got very angry to a point where we said things we shouldn’t have said to an old veteran of the liberation movement,” Malema said during an interview on SAfm.

    “We apologise to him …

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2013/07/02/malema-apologises-to-zuma-south-africans

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “I saw a vision of Brett’s GRANNY”

    With respect Maggs, don’t think that, just because Pierre is away, you may distract us with your LIBERAL ranting. Brett and I are having a serious discussion about his in-depth scholarly research into Mr Obama’s true background. His GRANNY has nothing to do with it!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    July 2, 2013 at 17:49 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    Who died and appointed you spokesperson for Brett’s GRANNY???

    Let’s ask Brett.

    Hey Brett – what does your GRANNY have to say about OBAMA’s fake birth certificate?

    p.s. Mike’s Granny saved Indian people but Mike stole all their land!

  • Brett Nortje – The ANC are backward! Completely out of place in the 21st Century….

    Michael Osborne says:
    July 2, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    Michael, you appear to be relying on hearsay?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – Brett is completely out of place in the 21st Century….
    July 2, 2013 at 18:36 pm

    Hey Brett

    “Michael, you appear to be relying on hearsay?”

    Did GRANNY say that?

  • Zulani

    USA vs RSA
    Good old Harry Truman was correct when he observed, “My choices in life were either to be a piano player in a whore house or a politician. And to tell the truth, there’s hardly any difference!

  • Mau – CANT Zuma joins his fellow African leaders and fall over their feet to support Mugabe.

    It’s difficult to make sense of what is the full truth, but where there is smoke there is a fire… Just CANT Zuma don’t see it.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=396070&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    BUT, as Pierre has taught, though we should not judge others and think twice about insulting Zuma. No matter the taste in our mouths.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/zuma-congratulates-mugabe-1.1557193

    It does occour to me that we seem to move as South Africans on the difficult issues only when there is a cacophony of insults….

    I dream for another president soonest that thinks further than his nose and represents all South Africans and not just his tribe, HIS people and HIS home.

    Basically from the outside looking in, the AU & SADC have taken the route of appeasement, again at the cost of our neighbours either because:

    1) they decided to wait for Mugabe to die instead of taking him on to avoid loss of life
    or
    2) they agree with his indigenisation and policies. Possibly Zimbabwe is really how they see success ala Malema? I’m starting to lean towards this option..

    Either way, just as endearing it is that most of the after dark voting and counting happened by candlelight, so we should mourn today for the sad loss for us all as humans by giving Emperor Mugabe another five years to further oppress HIS people…

    Unless of course having candlelight represent progress?

  • Mary Hinge

    Perpetuating which ‘racial stereotypes’ ? If Zuma were white and behaved the way he does, he would receive exactly the same comments.