Sometimes the truth seems so blindingly obvious that one is tempted to believe that even our politicians would not be able to twist the facts to justify the indefensible – only to be reminded that politicians lie for a living and that the ordinary voter is often too lazy or stupid to care.
But let us consider this question, nevertheless: who should we believe?
Should we believe Vusi Pikoli, the man who even Frene Ginwala – old friend of Thabo Mbeki and disciplined member of the ANC – found to be a man of the highest integrity?
Or should we believe Brigitte Mbandla, the often tired and emotional ex-Minister of Justice, her Director General, Mr Simelane, who was caught lying before the Ginwala Commission, or Thabo Mbeki, a man who has a rather bizarre relationship to facts and the truth, or his Director General, Frank Chikane, who first made ringing statements about the deal struck with Adriaan Vlok before he went to the Ginwala Commission to denounce that very same deal when his boss decided a case had to be built against Pikoli?
Let us consider the evidence and probe a bit deeper into this obvious question. On the one side we have Vusi Pikoli, who told the Parliamentary Committee set up to rubber stamp the decision of President Kgalema Motlanthe to fire the National Director of Public Prosecutions (NDPP), that if the Scorpions had never investigated the murder of mining magnate Brett Kebble he would not now be suspended and required to defend himself before a parliamentary committee.
“If it had not been for the matter of Kebble I would not have this problem I am having today,” he said, adding that the decision to charge Selebi was the direct reason for his suspension. He also described as unlawful and unconstitutional an instruction from then justice minister Brigitte Mabandla that he halt the investigation of Selebi. He said both Mbeki and Mabandla had asked him to resign but he had refused as this would have allowed executive interference to triumph over the independence of the National Prosecuting Authority. “Because I refused to obey an unlawful instruction I was suspended.”
On the other hand we have the government, this time represented by the honourable Reverend Chikane who claimed yesterday that it was wrong to say that Mbeki had abused his power.
“I was there. The president did nothing to stop Pikoli from arresting Selebi.” Chikane said Mbeki had merely acted to manage any potential security fallout when he asked the head of the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) to wait two weeks before arresting Selebi on corruption and fraud charges. “There was a great risk of something extraordinary happening to destabilise the country and it was the duty of the president to ensure the country was not destabilised.
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What is the relationship between Mbeki and Selebi? How long do they know each other? How much money did Brett Kebble give to the ANC? Did he give any money to Mbeki or any of his pet projects?
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After it became clear that Pikoli was going to arrest Selebi, what did the President say to Chikane, Mbandla, Gumbi, Simelane or Mpshe about the case? Did he ask any of them (or anyone else) to take steps to ensure that Pikoli did not arrest Selebi before the Polokwane conference? If he did not, was it because he was momentarily dumbstruck or are those testifying just lying to protect their boss?
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Why did Simelane write the letter illegally instructing Pikoli not to arrest Selebi and why did Mbandla sign it? Was there any link between this letter and anything the President or his staff told Simelane or Mbandla? If not, why has Simelane and Mbandla not been arrested by the police for this illegal interference with the NPA? Why were they not immediately fired by the President for issuing this illegal order?
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If Mbeki did not do anything to stop the arrest of Pikoli, why was Pikoli suspended by the President on a public holiday and only a day before he was going to execute the warrant for Selebi’s arrest?
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If Mbeki, as his underlings and Ginwala have claimed, was concerned about the national security implications of Selebi’s arrest, and if Mbeki had not tried to stop that arrest, why on earth did he not try and stop the arrest? Surely, if there was really a national security concern and if he thought he had a duty to act to protect the country, then he would have made sure that Selebi would not be arrested – otherwise he would be in dereliction of his duties as President? Please explain this contradiction.
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After Pikoli’s suspension and the appointment of Mokotedi Mpshe as NDPP, what was said by Mbeki, the Minister or anyone else to Mpshe about the arrest of Selebi? Who gave the instruction to Mpshe to cancell the arrest warrant? Surely it must have been on instructions from the President that this instruction was given – otherwise, how does one explain the involvement of Gumbi and Simelane in the drafting of the letter to request the cancellation of the arrest warrants? Or did these officials act without instructions from the President and if so, why have they not been fired?
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Why did the Presidency give conflicting reasons for the suspension of Pikoli? Was it incompetence or was it because they discovered that the original reason for the suspension could not be justified, so they had to cook up some new reasons ex post facto? Either way, why were they not all fired for this dishonesty/incompetence? Was it because they were acting on instructions from Mbeki?
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Even after he was fired as President, Mbeki maintained that he had not seen any evidence of wrongdoing by Selebi, despite the fact that Pikoli had provided the President with all the information he requested – the same information that prompted an indepndent panel of experts to conclude that a strong case exists against Selebi. So was Mbeki lying when he said repeatedly that he had not seen evidence to implicate Selebi? If he was not lying, what was he smoking at the time?
A skilfull cross-examiner will have a field day with all these witnesses and I will take a bet of R1000 with anyone that under cross-examination it would become clear that Mbeki and all his underlings are lying through their teeth about this matter. Pikoli was suspended because he wanted to arrest Selebi – finish and klaar.
Why Mbeki and his underlings are spreading these “deliberate falsehoods” are beyond me. If there was good reason to suspend and fire Pikoli to protect the national security, then surely Mbeki and his underlings should all be admitting that Mbeki suspended Pikoli to ensure that Selebi was not arrested because then Mbeki would just be doing his job.
The fact that they are all denying this blindingly obvious fact can only mean one thing: they are not telling us the truth. But parliament cannot afford to face this fact so Pikoli is toast.
Yawn!
Lol when has governement in any country ever told the truth hee hee
one also needs to look at the credibility of the characters
Personnaly and this is my opinion the credibility of Pikoli is actually outstanding lets just face it the guy did his job plan and simple and to top it off while he was suspended got an award by the International Association of Prosecutors for prosecutorial independence and the Ginwala found him a person of “unimpeachable integrity”
Brigitte Mbandla
Here’s the evidence:
Simelane is unlikely to have misled Mbeki as Ginwala confirms the president had 10 briefings from Pikoli on the Selebi investigation. Mabandla was also briefed and never objected — until Mbeki realised search and arrest procedures were imminent and wrote to her about it.
On receipt of Mbeki’s letter, Mabandla wrote to Pikoli instructing him “not to pursue the route that you have taken steps to pursue” until she satisfied herself there was “sufficient” evidence for Selebi’s arrest. The reasonable inference is that Mabandla’s attempt to interfere — which Ginwala rightly condemns — was at Mbeki’s instigation.
To exonerate Mbeki, Ginwala relies on a bland letter from the president to Mabandla instructing her to “obtain the necessary information from Pikoli regarding the intended arrest …” and noting: “This would enable me to take such informed decisions as may be necessary with regard to the national commissioner.”
Here in the Ginwala is proof that Mbeki and mabandla broke the law to interfen and that in itself is abuse of power.
The minister (Mabandla) burst into a tirade. She asked me whether I thought she was a moron.
“She said she was ‘tired of this rubbish’. She referred to our communication as an ‘unproductive discourse’
“She accused me of being disrespectful and contemptuous, sending her an ugly letter (referring to Pikoli’s reply to her order that he not arrest Selebi) and of telling people that she loses documents
what we the public do know is that a letter was indeed writen by Mbeki to Mabandla to interven in selebi first the governement denyed there was such a “secret letter” to stating it is “privalaged information”
Look the bigger picture is this
we have selebi, Oilgate scandal, the Arms Deal fiasco, and Travelgate whats the one conclusive link to all this?
It is worth noting that the current Zuma stooge president-temp Motlanthe is still interfering by refusing to reinstate Pikoli.
The ANC itself is meddling in the affairs of the NPA which is constitutionally an INDEPENDENT body investigating a CRIMINAL matter
You know the ANC memebers amongest us who are firm Zuma supporters crying on about Zuma not getting a fair trail…..know lets look at pikoli the ANC has publically stated they want Pikoli fired ASAP!!! the The Justice Portfolio Committee is been chaired by how many ANC memebers??
lol looks like Pikoli is the one who want get a fair trail.
True!
These matter is really exhausting and if not treated carefully is likely to plunge our country into a deeper crisis of our Judicial institutions perceived to be intefered with by the executive, a commission was setup to look into the matter and recommendations were made and based on that Pikoli was exonerated by the commission and it therefore follows that the logical thing would have been to reinstate Pikoli by the President, instead the President took a contrary decision against the recommendation of the commission appointed by his office,this is incomprehensible,the likely scenario to unfold after the recommendation by the current committee is that the commitee will confirm the axing of Pikoli by the President , Pikoli is unlikely to take these lying down the outcome will be challenged possibly through the courts of law, and the matter will drag and drag for too long at the expense of the tax payers.
Cant sanity prevail on the part of our leaders,all what these shenanigans can do is to undermine our young flegling democracy and make our country a laughing stock of the world, our politicians must take us the voters seriously and may be is about time that the electoral system of the country is changed and we directly elect our representatives who will directly account to us, currently we are disempowered hence what is happening, our politicians are taking us for granted and let us rise and take action.
Khosi – At that time in the morning a mere yawn? I suggest you take a nap and, when refreshed, you re-read this post and see whether you can provide a credible answer to any or all the questions that Prof de Vos suggests should be answered if (rather, when) this matter goes to court. And don’t start calling for ‘evidence’ to prove that Mbeki and his (erstwhile) underlings are (or were) lying – when this matter goes to court and the government wants the court to uphold its suspension and later firing of Pikoli, the impugned persons will have to prove that they were not lying.
Now see what the Mothlanthe and the ANC have been doing to your beloved TM? Despite the Ginwalla Commission’s suggestion that the suspension was wrong and that Pikoli should be re-instated, they went and decided to impeach Pikoli so that he can be fired; and, despite clear lies before the Committee investigating Mothlanthe’s recommendation of his dismissal, the signs are there that the Committee and Parliament will (because of the ANC’s current majority) merely rubberstamp his recommendation. Where does all this leave poor old TM? Mothlanthe and the ANC (the Zuma faction) knows that there is a big-big probability of Pikoli challenging the decision in court when the process has been finalized – and that will give witnesses and legal representatives for the government (and Pikoli) the chance to open their decks – and to call Mbeki and his erstwhile underlings as witnesses – and then he will be grilled as far as his involvement in the whole arms-deal, Zuma prosecutions, Selebi (ex Kebble) prosecutions etc. That is exactly what the Zuma camp wants – they want to bring the whole thing into the open so that the Mbeki camp can be grilled. You think the Mack & Mo show on TV was good? Wait ’til you see this one.
If anything, i think Pikoli is south africa’s hero, you wanted one well you got one and im impressed by this guy.
Mouse you talk as if you don’t want the truth to come out, I can’t wait for it!
Mdu – I can also not wait for it to come out. However, whether Khosi and his beloved TM want the truth to become public? That’s another story. But, while we are debating in the age of conspiracy theories, I thought I could bait Khosi and other TM supporters into screaming ‘CONSPIRACY!’ when they realise what the true consequences of TM’s suspension and Mothlanthe’s firing of Pikoli are (or rather, might be).
Anonymouse // Jan 22, 2009 at 10:52 am
Reading your second paragraph tells me that the Nicholson bug is alive and well in the judiciary. Or you are just dreaming. I cannot believe that you cannot see that Mothlanthe is closer to Mbeki than the ‘so called’ Zuma camp. Mothlanthe has done nothing to dispute what Mbeki did during his presidency.
You are sleeping, pour cold water on yourself. VUKA!!!
khosi // Jan 22, 2009 at 11:55 am
im lost i thought Mothlanthe was elected deputy president cos he was close to Zuma I.E being in the Zuma camp if he is so close to Mbeki why did he play such a key role in ousting Mbeki?
Khosi i think ur a bit deluded, maybe go back to sleep and try again tomorrow
The unpricipled ANC majority will do exactly as you predict and it will again be up to the courts to sort out the mess. In rubber stamping the GM decision, they will be going against the evidence and the conclusions of every expert commentator that I am aware of. The only conclusion we can draw is that the decision is purely political, not in the interests of the adminitration of justice or the citizens of SA. Sahem on the government and the ANC, again!
chris mcdaniel // Jan 22, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Khosi off the topic tell me about this Vuka-Vuka stuff does it give like sexual powers? hee hee
Mdu, speaking like a true believer, which brings us to our next question the one of national security:”was the
country destabalised, more than usual, after Selebi’s arrest?” So why talk shit then mr President? Want to take it outside?
And yes Spoiler, sahem on the government, sahem on them!
chris mcdaniel // Jan 22, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I have never needed the stuff. I am a stealth African man and my current squeeze is a proper Afrikaner meisie. An educated independent one at that, but still she refers to herself as ‘Khosi’s earth mother-whore’. I asked to stop saying such things but she told me that its a great turn-on for her. I am a gentlemen… and who am I to deny her such pleasures.
As you can see, there is something quite affirming about my congenial arrangement that I do no derive the need for herbal stimulae. But, for a burgered up, french fry munching, hotdog sucking, dough-nut licking, turkey stuffing Yankee like you, I am sure such concoctions could be of good use. Go ahead, knock yourself out.
Chris – actually ‘VUKA!’ stands for ‘Wake up!’ Not ‘Stand-up’. Ha-haaa. However, I agree, Khosi is the one who is actually still slumbering in his post Mbeki-era euphoria. Some Zuma supporters are on record for saying that he will spill the beans and expose Mbeki at the earliest and best opportuinty. What better time than to do it in the Pikoli matter that is bound to turn sour for Mbeki, and, to a lesser extent, for the ANC. (After all, the ANC could in the case of a court decision to re-instate Pikoli just stand back and say, ‘Well, it was Mbeki’s fault that the case is decided against our firing Pikoli. Good thing we got rid of him at the time.’)
khosi // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:06 pm
lol that earth shaking girl of urs is ur teddy bear dont lie to us ha ha haaa ;p
go back to sleep.
heres a spanner in the works Mhleli “Paul” Madaka wonder if Mbeki could of ordered a hit on him, since we seem to be talking abit about conspiracies
Anonymouse // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:09 pm
You obviously have not been watching the deliberations on TV over the past few days.
chris mcdaniel // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Whatever makes you sleep better at night. Can we please get back to the topic now.
Anonymouse // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:09 pm
You obviously have not been watching the deliberations on TV over the past few days.
chris mcdaniel // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Whatever makes you sleep better at night. Can we please get back to the topic now.
Let’s see if we can find answers to some of Prof’s questions:
1. What is the relationship between Mbeki and Selebi? How long do they know each other? How much money did Brett Kebble give to the ANC? Did he give any money to Mbeki or any of his pet projects?
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Personally, I do not know how long they’ve known each other and I’ve also been hoping that someone out there can come up with a clear explanation as to their relationship. Before the arest warrant issue, I’d never heard of any special relationship between the two I’ve always been puzzled at how it’s been easy for all of us to take it as a given that TM tried to protect Selebi. Why only request 2 weeks if he was really trying to protect him is still a mystery to me. If I was Selebi and I had a friend like TM (as we are made to believe) I would have been very disappointed in that friend if the best he could do was to buy me only two weeks.
Indeed, you might find that TM has known Zuma for much longer than he’s known Selebi. Point is: nothing turns on this question. It takes the matters no further as it is quite evident (if we are to disbelieve JZ & TM when they publicly say there’s no rift between them) that the lenght of time is no object when it comes to getting TM’s protection (assmuing that’s what he was doing with Selebi).
If we are to believe the papers, Brett gave a lot of money to the ANC and some of its members, some of whom are within the so-called “Zuma camp”. Once again, this question does not really take us anywhere. I may have missed it, but can someone give me a link to some report (regardless of its reliability) linking TM to Brett’s funds?
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2. After it became clear that Pikoli was going to arrest Selebi, what did the President say to Chikane, Mbandla, Gumbi, Simelane or Mpshe about the case? Did he ask any of them (or anyone else) to take steps to ensure that Pikoli did not arrest Selebi before the Polokwane conference? If he did not, was it because he was momentarily dumbstruck or are those testifying just lying to protect their boss?
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I would also love to know the answer to this question but what we do know is that TM asked for 2 weeks, not 4 months (to allow for Polokwane to come and pass – reckoned from about Sept). If he wanted to postpone the arrest until after Polokwane, why didn’t he ask Pikoli for only 2 weeks then? In any event, as an ANC member, I’ve never known Selebi to have any significant following, hence I do not see what TM would have gained by having an un-arrested/un-charged Selebi in Polokwane.
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3. If Mbeki did not do anything to stop the arrest of Pikoli, why was Pikoli suspended by the President on a public holiday and only a day before he was going to execute the warrant for Selebi’s arrest?
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If I followed the issue correctly, I think the explanation was that the public holiday was the last day of the extension that was granted by Pikoli. Failure to act would have led to Pikoli carrying out his arrest with the Pres not having had an opportunity to address the issues he wanted to address (whether these were genuine concerns or not is something else). I must say, this justification is not exactly convincing but so is Pikoli’s apparent haste in having the arrest effected immediately. Would his independence been affected by granting the one extra week requested by TM?
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4. If Mbeki, as his underlings and Ginwala have claimed, was concerned about the national security implications of Selebi’s arrest, and if Mbeki had not tried to stop that arrest, why on earth did he not try and stop the arrest? Surely, if there was really a national security concern and if he thought he had a duty to act to protect the country, then he would have made sure that Selebi would not be arrested – otherwise he would be in dereliction of his duties as President? Please explain this contradiction.
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I understood the Presidency’s point to be that there were national security CONCERNS, not that there was IN FACT a THREAT to national security. If my understanding is correct, it would have been impropoer to stop the arrest without knowing for a fact that there was such a threat, hence the request for 2 weeks – to satisfy himself whether there was such a threat or not.
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There’s way too many of these questions to answer. In any event, most of them are based on some conspiracy (yes, Mouse I said it) theories.
Mzo // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:31 pm
You are a patient person.
I found the question to be standard grade, third language material.
thank you,
Khosi – you didn’t appear to think that way when Trengrove questioned you – but before the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee, you might’ve felt differently, brazened by the partisanism of the Committee.
khosi // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Like Judge Harms said the other day, lest Nicholson’s utterances be taken as authority, the full bench had to attend to them. Similarly, I felt, lest Prof’s question be deemed to be decent questions, let me perhaps see if we can dispose of them.
I must say though, with questions like these, it’s a blessing that Prof will be coming no close to examining any witness – he would make f****k a good case (to borrow from the words attributed to Prof favourite Judge, Hlope JP).
Mzo // Jan 22, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Yes, I get you. Prof did make a good case for the government.
before we go on heres a letter written from pikoli to Mbeki
http://www.thetimes.co.za/PDFs/pikoli.pdf
what are the procedures for issuing an arrest warrent?
well NPA needs to get one from the Chief
Magistrate in Randburg. Ok now what? well surely evidence is needed? if evidence was given and suffiecent evidence then the Chief Magistrate clearly saw that an arrest warrent can be issued.
A search warrant was obtained on 14 September 2007 from the Deputy
Judge President of the Witwatersrand Local Division of the High Court in
Johannesburg.
So procedures where followed and the courts found fit that theres evidence to issue search and arrest warrant for Selebi
Mbeki didnt suspend Pikoli because of an irretrievable breakdown in the relationship between Pikoli and Justice Minister oh no Pikoli got suspended cos he had evidence that there was a (here comes that phrase again) “generally corrupt relationship between TM and Selebi
Simelane admitted under cross-examination that the government did not trust that the Scorpions
“would act in the national interest” and not execute the warrants against Selebi, and had therefore attempted to have them cancelled.
This does not fall in his job discription nor the Justice Minister nor the president
what is also clear on the court hearings is Simelane that Mr Pikoli was suspended because he stood up to the minister’s unlawful instructions.
and what is also clear is the governement didnt trust the Scorpians and saw fit to interven and going against the NPA act.
It is clear as daylight
Chris – Powerful stuff!
A few observations – Firstly, if Thabo Mbeki (or Mbandla) ever said that he (she) was not informed of the nature of the evidence that was available to the DSO of the NDPP against Jackie Selebi, it was a blatant lie in the light of this letter.
Secondly, the letter was marked (and apparently treated) as TOP SECRET. Aparently Pikoli has (or had) a TOP SECRET security clearance, otherwise he wouldn’t have communicated with the President in this fashion. How was it leaked out? Was the breach at the President’s office? It would almost seem as if the matter of national security was created by the President himself!
Lastly, with the disclosure of all the available evidence to the President, which includes pretty damning evidence contained in affidavits of witnesses, why was Selebi placed on long leave, with pay, his contract even extended for another year after the new Acting NDPP and his panel of experts perused the docket, found that there was enough evidence and eventually araigned Selebi to face the charges in court – whilst Jacob Zuma was suspended for similar (actually far less serious) allegations – and whilst Pikoli, for disclosing this information and not wanting to wait any longer because the relevant Ministers and the President dragged their feet, was also suspended. In my view, this makes the President, and the relevant Ministers, and every top-brass that new about the thing and tried to stop it or intervene, accomplices. What a corrupt scene!!!
Nobody can answer this question: if the President was acting on the basis of national security concerns when he suspended Pikoli because he feared that Selebi’s arrest will create chaos, why did he and all his underlings consistently denied that Pikoli was suspended because of the arrest warrants for Selebi? Why did they consistently give other reasons for the suspension? Either they were acting on the basis of national security, in which case they are lying about the reasons for the suspension, or they were not, in which case they had no reason to suspend Pikoli and – according to even Ginwala – were acting illegally. Simple. Either way, they are unmasked as untrustworthy.
Khosi et Mzo – have the two of you now read the ‘TOP SECRET’ letter by Pikoli addressed to Thabo in May 2007 already? I’d like to know what your responses are. This goes much bigger than the ARMS DEAL thing. The National Commissioner of Police (also the Head of INTERPOL for crying out loud!!!) being involved with national, transnational and international criminals, defeating not only national justice, but also international justice and receiving payments from such criminals for his co-operation; and there being clear indications that the President of the RSA and some of his Ministers (and some of Selebi’s cronies) clearly dragged feet (and tried to cover-up evidence and stop investigations)!!! And then, they go and suspend Pikoli, and place the actual suspected criminal on long leave until the dust settles or until Pikoli is (i)legally ousted. Indeed this was a matter of security, I MUST CONCEDE. … BUT THE NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE WAS CAUSED BY THABO MBEKI HIMSELF, … BY NOT ALLOWING THE LAW TO RUN ITS COURSE AGAINST A SUSPECTED INTERNATIONA CRIMINAL!!!
What is the process by which citizens can institute a criminal case Pierre. Can we have a post on that?
When letters marked top secret end up on newspaper websites, then we may very well have a national security issue.
That said, this letter is even a bigger yawn Pierre de Vos’s posting. We already know this stuff.
Just for laughs
http://www.pod947.co.za/podcast/whackhead/Wha ckheadswindow20090121.mp3.
The thing that worries me about this whole circus (apart from the ANC possibly invalidating the Committee with their choice of Co-Chair) is that Chikane was now pushing the National Security line firmly, which of course was never stressed previously pre-Ginwala. Ok, so he’s making a huge fuss about it now.
But wait, we don’t have to speculate! Selebi was arrested, he resigned from Interpol, he took long leave from his job, and the world remained turning!
How on earth can they all be basing Pikoli’s future on some perceived threat that time has proven to never be real?
And Mzo, Selebi and Mbeki are very good friends. Did you know Selebi never wanted to take up his post as National Police Commissioner?
chris mcdaniel // Jan 22, 2009 at 2:48 pm
The formating in that letter is all out of sync. It’s either not a complete reproduction or it’s fake.
Wessel – Unfortunately, unlike the position in Civil Law States (Continental Europe), in South Africa we don’t have the ‘right’ as (private) citizens to ‘institute’ (or ‘prosecute’) a criminal case – except for a so-called ‘private prosecution’ where the NPA refuses to prosecute a specific matter. But then the strict conditions for a private prosecution (ss 7 – 17 of the Criminal Procedure Act 51 of 1977) would apply: Only a private person who could show a substantial particular interest in the prosecution because of prejudice that he or she personally suffered as a result of the crime may institute private prosecution. In Continental Europe (e.g., in Belgium where the so-called “initiatiefrecht voor burgerlijke partijen” applies), the national prosecuting authority of a state is normally compelled (no discretion) to institute prosecution where the citizens (or a citizen) lay(-s) a charge and insists on prosecution, provided, of course, that there is a case for the accused person to answer (in other words, the case must have merit to justify a prosecution). In SA, the NPA has the discretionary authority whether to prosecute or to refuse to prosecute “on behalf of the state” (not “on behalf of citizens” – although citizens or a population is one of the requirements for statehood), which is a flaw in our constitutional system. However, someone with a sense of adventure, and enough money to brief Senior Counsel, might be tempted to try and argue in the CC that their right under s 34 of the Constitution (access to courts) overrides ss 7 – 17 of the CPA, and therefore, that citizens have a right to institute prosecutions. This is more or less what AZAPO tried when it tried to have the Truth and Reconciliation Process emasculated so that, even if someone was granted amnesty, prosecutions against him or her for serious human rights transgressions could continue. However, there, the Interim Constitution itself mandated the process, and AZAPO was unsuccessful.
Mpho // Jan 23, 2009 at 12:13 am
Now that the letter is public domain – we will quickly see whether either party admits or denies its existence. I don’t see the formatting to be out of sync – but I do see a few grammar and syntax flaws, which does not imply incompleteness or that it is fake.
Khosi – If you already know that stuff, can you explain again, veeery sloowwly, why is it that it would’ve been so wrong if Selebi had been cuffed and marched off to the cahrge office as a public spectacle. Serious allegations such as these, against a police chief (who allegedly tampers with evidence to let international racketeers in the style of Al Capone roam the streets freely), requires drastic measures. And if the police chief is arrested and charged, I think the public’s faith in the NPA and the judicial system would have received an enormous boost, rather than shock and horror.
The thing that saddens me most, is wondering how former president Mandela must feel in all of this. Having brought Mbeki through the ranks to be the next president – his right hand man.
And having fought in the struggle with Zuma and others who have suspicious claims laying over their heads…and how the more they try cover it up they more confusing it becomes and the more obvious is becomes that the political state of affairs in this country is riddled by events of corruption and fraud and the only solution for the sanity of the people is supposedly to cover it all up.
[...] Questions for Chikane, Mbandla, Gumbi, Simelane, Mpshe and Mbeki [...]
with regards to the “top Secret” Letter, one has to assume it is legit, The Times is a well known publication im sure would of been charged of fraud if this letter was fake but its in the public domain with Pikolis signature all over the letter. Enough said.
If we take this letter as face value we will notice some serious charges against Selebi and that Pikoli asked the president to assest in this matter reason being that the Scorpians had permission to search Selebi’s office and home – yes being the police commissioner he would have sensitive materials and the Issue of this leaking out to the public and having the public lose faith in the police department. Well lets face it has the South African public had any faith in the poilice department? No!!!
The point is Pikoli asked the president to interven. what did the president do? Sure, your fired? then come up with some hog wash story oh there was a communication break down between the Minister and the NPA. Even with that statement alone one can easily see that one tried to influence the other…YES? NO?
Then changing the story oh no what we meant is Pikoli poses as a security risk? WTF? the security risk is Selebi!! What planet are they from?
what this also shows is IFP MP Koos van der Merwe noted that Mbeki had known about the Selebi investigation for at least six months
6 months?? thats ample time to prepare ground work to help with the investigation and put in security measures to avoid a security leak or risk. Hello?
so take your pick either Mbeki is completely incompatent or he tried to stall the investigations?
What has been established is a number of charactors seem to have now been involved in this investigation with influence.
Not only that now you got crime intelligence head Mulangi Mphego in the dock for corruption.
Look either this was toooooo big for Mbeki to handle and tried to sweep it under the carpet, “OH theres no crises” or he is part of this?
Now that this is all out in the open the NPA is still issueing subpoenas in terms of Section 205 of the Criminal Procedure Act for purposes of finalising outstanding aspects of the investigation under the acting National Director of Public Prosecutions advocate Mokotedi Mpshe
so the question is now why isnt Mpshe a security risk?
Mpho // Jan 22, 2009 at 11:59 pm
“And Mzo, Selebi and Mbeki are very good friends. Did you know Selebi never wanted to take up his post as National Police Commissioner?”.
Mpho, this means nothing to me because I’ve heard it before but I really can’t seem to find anyone who can clearly point out to this apparently strong friendship pre-arrest warrants. For example, I know that JZ and TM were friends from their days in exile and I actually saw a documentary on TV fairly recently on this. I’m still waiting for something that will point towards this apparent strong friendship between Selebi and TM. Understand me correctly, I am by no means suggesting that they had no relationship – I’m sure they did, as Cdes they would have been friends. But the allegations seem to point to more than just a friendship based on being a Cde.
Anonymouse // Jan 23, 2009 at 8:06 am
The Presidency’s answer to your question to Khosi appears to be that the arrest of a police commissioner (potentially) posed a national security threat, hence the need to treat it carefully. Assuming this is a genuine justification (I have my doubts), I think if Pikoli had agreed to grant the additional week requested by the then President the “judicial system would (still) have received an enormous boost, rather than shock and horror”. I see in his “Top Secret” letter that he also wanted the President to revert to him by 8 May 2007, never mind that the letter is dated 7 May 2007.
Seems Adv Pikoli is a fan of tight deadlines!
If I was in TM shoes I would have ordered my cabinett to immediately come up with a proposal to disban the Scorpions. They are a nuisance
The legacy of the pipe smoking garden gnome just gets worse and worse as more details of his incompentent and corrupt reign emerge. Corruption/cronyism, AIDS denialism, Zimbabwe, zero succesion planning etc et fucking cetera.
This country would be cooking as opposed to rotting away at the moment if Madiba had had his way and a more suitable successor had been appointed. So sad.
Anonymouse,
I respond as follows to your three enquiries:
Enquiry 1:
Mbeki never stated that he was not aware of the nature of evidence against Selebi nor of the investigation against Selebi, he merely stated that there was not any sufficient evidence to justify Selebi’s dismissal/suspension. You will note in the foregoing regard that the “evidence” tendered by Pikoli in the letter is circumstantial and no prosecution would have succeeded based solely on it (it is a prerequisite for the institution of a prosecution that there be reasonable likelihood of a successful prosecution). Indeed his response to this letter was to facilitate the search and seizure of documents that enabled Pikoli and the NPA to obtain sufficient evidence to prosecute!
Enquiry 2:
Your suggestion that the national security issue was created by the President is an extraordinary leap of faith. This document originates from the NPA, an organization that is notorious for leaking information. The presidency has no such notoriety. It is therefore more plausible that the letter was leaked by persons within the NPA. Indeed, public disclosure of the letter would suit the agenda of the NPA more than the Presidency, lending further credence to the hypothesis of a NPA leak. Also, note that you are conflating the security concerns raised by the President in regard to Selebi’s “arrest” to the matters relating to his “investigation” by the NPA.
Enquiry 3
The commissioner of police is a civil servant whose position equates to that of a Director General. He is protected by labour legislation (including the LRA and BCOEA), PAJA and the common law of employment. He cannot be dismissed from office solely on the basis of untested allegations and/or an indictment, without triggering the normal employment law consequences (in this regard, note the difficulties facing the current administration in its endeavor to replace Selebi) . The deputy president is a political appointee who serves at the behest of the president and is not an employee. The president may therefore dismiss him without t triggering of employment law consequences. His only recourse is political. The two matters therefore do not equate.
Yes Vuyo, the reason most people (you may dismiss their pleads by catogorizing them on the white winer shelf) are alarmed by the letter is because they need something like this to confirm their suspisions. They will be taken from the winer shelf to the racist shelf if they knew, like Khosi new, but that is A grade paranoia, let me just say that people where concerned because they could not understand what 35% of their income where spent on if they want to renew their drivers licence and the person behind the helpdesk cannot engage in a helpfull order or when they have to wait for a year for building plans to be approved or to get an ID book or report a crime as a victim therof to the office of the police or report a death to the Master of the High court or any other service that the state delivers besides covering your ass if they want to haul it to proson for smuggling drugs to the children.
Could you care?
Vuyo – Nonsense!
Ad Enq 1 – The evidence available was not only circumstancial – there was direct evidence from, inter alia, Agliotti, who was later (after the matter was already brought to the attention of Mbeki) again (wrongly) influenced by Mphego (who appeared in the Randburg court yesterday?!) to ‘recant’ his statement so that the case against Selebi could be dropped.
Ad Enq 2 – Regardless of whomever leaked the document (i think it has onlyvery recently been leaked), the only way in which National security could have played a role in this whole sorry saga is in the way that I have, as you say, ‘conflated’ it.
Ad Enq 3 – Labour law only protects someone against ‘dismissal’, but not against ‘suspension’ with or without pay until the case has been finalized. In fact, that is what has to be decided in respect of Mphego today, whether he should be ‘suspended’ pending the outcome of the criminal case against him. The parralel drawn between the Selebi and the Zuma / Pikoli matters to determine whether Mbeki acted fairly is therefore justified, regardless of the position of labour law on the issue.
Friend – “…the Scorpions. They are a nuisance”
A nuisance to corrupt politicians, yes?
Mpho // Jan 22, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Mpho
“How on earth can they all be basing Pikoli’s future on some perceived threat that time has proven to never be real”.
The September 11 attacks in the USA were perceived (in the sense of alleged) threats to the USA and were proven real. Had the matter been addressed pro-actively (even at risk of embarrassment to the then POTUS) 3500 lives would have been saved.
The fact that the threats that were feared by Mbeki did not materialize does not mean that he oughtn’t have been concerned. Indeed, we will never know if Pikoli’s suspension actually averted the security threat!
We live in a very unstable country (notwithstanding the general image of tranquility), hence the need for vigilance in the side of Mbeki. If you doubt this, refer to the ignoble butchering of foreigners and the fire fights between the SAPS and JMPD in 2008.
@mouse, indeed, indeed, to quote the spoiler: sahem on them!
People pretend to forget the stand-off between the Scopions and SAPS at JZ’s Johannesburg home. And then pretend that it would not be a national security issue if SAPS members, who happen to get less pay than Scorpion members, decided to side with their commissioner against a Scorpions arrest. The Johan Nel circus was a strong illustration of this.
An open gun battle COULD NOT be ruled out. And then, national security would have been compromised. Now had such been allowed to happen, the very same Pierre de Vos and his ilk would be rubbishing TM for allowing the situation to happen.
Peter // Jan 23, 2009 at 9:58 am
How democratic is succession planning?
Khosi – and what does an extra week do for your shootout scenario? This is just nonsense, we cannot be taken for fools forever!
Khosi why do you think a SAPS member gets less pay than a Scorpion investigator? I’ll give you one clue without letting anything slip about my feelings of the SAPS retards, oops. The scorpions consisted of 400 members each with a law digree plus the tactics training, now you decide how far this ubuntu perspective needs to reach.
Khosi – “The Johan Nel circus was a strong illustration of this.”
Actually his name is Gerie Nel, not Johan Nel. Moreover, the security risk there was created by Selebi and his followers, who tried to arrest (no, did in fact arrest) and charge Adv Gerrie Nel with crimes of interfering with justice, which charges were later dropped as being totally unfounded and misconceived. Lastly, if that is what Thabo feared, he had at least 6 months (after he received the abovemetioned letter) to take precautions to remove the threat to national security, which could’ve been done by simply suspending Selebi (with full pay if you like – I don’t like) in the light of the impending arrest and araignment. Instead, however, he suspended Pikoli and instructed Mpshe to re-evaluate the chances of success against Selebi, thereby actually siding with Selebi, before placing him on LONG LEAVE (not suspending him).
From this, it should be clear (as it should’ve been clear to Mbeki at the time) that the threat to national security, if it was such a serious threat, was actually having a potentially crooked Police Chief arrested by the Scorpions who are so notoriously known for their successes in prosecuting top government officials, and that his equally crooked underlings, would resist such actions by the Scorpions. That threat, he could have removed, not by suspending Pikoli, but by taking the suspected criminal out of his position of power. Or was he perhaps afraid that Selebi could muster enough support for a coup d’etat? Now that is another matter altogether. If that is what he was afraid of, he was actually playing into the hands of Selebi by firing the NPA boss.
Great posts ‘Mouse and Chris! I cannot wait for the inevitable legal action by Pikoli after the ANC luminaries on the Ad Hoc committee confirm his axing. If the 07 memorandum to TM is legit, it further confirms Pikoli’s stance and again give the lie to TM and his cronies evidence. National security my ass – What could be more serious than a national commissioner and Head of Interpol being involved in international crime, murder and corruption. Oops, I forgot, we need to create an “enabling environment” eg destroy some evidence perhaps, and fire the NDPP.
Friend – “Sahem” is copyrighted, so kindly desist from using it
Mouse,
You are talking of 6 months of evidence tendered by a criminal who is trying to get a best deal for himself. Aggliotti is no cardinal for truth. Also you are talking about 6 months of an investigation. Are you then saying that the president should have acted based on investigations extracted from the mouths of thieves?
TM was right in letting the investigation run its course, and even undertook to assist the Scorpions in their investigation.
Pikoli gets his warrants and the Presidents asks for two weeks and Pikoli ‘misunderstands’ and then says: screw you Mr President, I will do this in a week whether your country is ready or not.
Then, for the reasons forwarded by the president:-
1.) Pikoli was suspended
2.) Selebi appeared in court and is awaiting trial, on the very same evidence that Pikoli had on him.
I do not understand how a suspension could have been designed to stop what history tells us happened. That line of thinking has simple been overtaken by events and you people do not want to let it go.
In that case, spoiler, may I please use it next time with your permission?
I think mr Mbeki were scared of mr Selebi, because they are gangsters has control of an entire country! Who knows what they’re capable of? They got rid of mr. Kebble and who knows who they chose to succeed mr. Mbeki, us bloggers have a clue don’t we?
Sorry gangsters that controlls the legislature and executive of a country and interpol and are manipulating it’s judiciary that it’s struggling to function at all.
Maybe we must ask mr Stratton to reduce our taxes and complain to him about poor service delivery
Anonymouse // Jan 23, 2009 at 11:50 am
On your second paragraph. I think your thoughts touch on my line of thinking. Whatever the threat he perceived is, it may be true that he need 2 weeks to do what he needed to do as president, WE do not know. Maybe on the second week he was going to put Selebi on leave to allow for the court appearance and search procedures , WE do not know.
But my thinking on the suspension says:
A few weeks ago, Pierre de Vos wrote a post and titled it:- ‘National security, the last refuge of scoundrels?’ – http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=743
Although I strongly disagree with the content of the post and the referring to our leaders as scoundrels, I find no disputing point about the total meaning of the heading itself. Maybe TM was well aware of national security being the last refuge of scoundrels. But as clear a national security concern as Pikoli’s approach was, TM chose not to be the president who sets a precedent of raising national security as a PRIMARY reason for unpopular executive decisions. Hence the terms of reference that, as history tells us, found Pikoli fit for that office. He could have added national security as the main reason for the suspension, but he did not. We now all know that Ginwala was going to find against Pikoli on that front.
@Anonymouse
On your second paragraph. I think your thoughts touch on my line of thinking. Whatever the threat he perceived is, it may be true that he need 2 weeks to do what he needed to do as president, WE do not know. Maybe on the second week he was going to put Selebi on leave to allow for the court appearance and search procedures , WE do not know.
But my thinking on the suspension says:
A few weeks ago, Pierre de Vos wrote a post and titled it:- ‘National security, the last refuge of scoundrels?’ – http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=743
Although I strongly disagree with the content of the post and the referring to our leaders as scoundrels, I find no disputing point about the total meaning of the heading itself. Maybe TM was well aware of national security being the last refuge of scoundrels. But as clear a national security concern as Pikoli’s approach was, TM chose not to be the president who sets a precedent of raising national security as a PRIMARY reason for unpopular executive decisions. Hence the terms of reference that, as history tells us, found Pikoli fit for that office. He could have added national security as the main reason for the suspension, but he did not. We now all know that Ginwala was going to find against Pikoli on that front.
need = needed
lol friend what the F are you on about? that is useless information that i spent 2 secs of my life reading waisted now thanks. what relevence does that have on the subject at hand?
Vuyo // Jan 23, 2009 at 9:59 am
Enquiry 1:
theres a thing called The Ginwala Report here http://www.news24.com/Images/Dynamic_Images/20081208133918PikoliReport.pdf
got to 11.10
Now Selebi stated the president was left in the dark investigation and decision to prosecute him
Mpshe’s statements that there was “constant communication” between Pikoli, Mbeki and Mabandla about the Selebi
Cabinet ministers said they were left frustrated by the developments. One said only those in the “super league” — or close to Mbeki — knew what was happening.
Vuyo this is for you http://www.thepresidency.gov.za/docs/reports/ndpp_enquiry/nddpfinal.pdf
please go to [50]
Now Vuyo my boy you say the president did not have any sufficient evidence to justify Selebi’s dismissal/suspension and shock shock the presidnt was oh im shocked there is an arrest warrant story
On 25 June 2007 Mr Pikoli arranged for the Selebi investigating team to meet the
Minister and give her a full and comprehensive briefing on the investigation.
“At this meeting it was stated clearly that a decision had been made to
prosecute Mr Selebi”
“and preparing for an arrest coupled with a
search of Mr Selebi’s residence and the SAPS head office.”
“At this meeting you raised no reservations about the intended course of
action”
The investigating team obtained a warrant for Mr Selebi’s arrest on 10 September
2007.37 Mr Pikoli told the Minister of it on 11 September 2007 and asked her to
inform the President and to arrange for him to meet the President to brief him on
it. She agreed to do so.38
On Saturday 15 September 2007 Mr Pikoli met the President and Reverend
Chikane and reported to them that the arrest and search warrants had been
obtained.40 The President was surprised by this news and said that he had been
unaware that SAPS had refused to co-operate.
Oh ahhh someone didnt tell the president about the prosecution? or the president was lying
and please go to 84
Ill work on your other 2 enquires
khosi // Jan 23, 2009 at 11:10 am
funny that um wasnt the “Cop strike” on the N1 more of security risk? as I believe cops were shooting at cops
You see, you guys are making a good argument for the big TM.
Of the warrants, Chris Mcdaniel reminds us:
“The President was surprised by this news and said that he had been unaware that SAPS had refused to co-operate.”
Contrary to popular belief, TM was not saying he was surprised by the investigation. He was surprised by the need for warrants to aid the investigation, when he had given the SAPS instruction to co-operate.
A responsible president would ask WHY this was the case and to WHAT lengths the SAPS would take their refusal co co-operate.
khosi // Jan 23, 2009 at 12:22 pm
for some one who yawned and appears to know it all about this and everything has been what was it….aah yes 3rd grade to you.
Then you say this:
“I do not understand how a suspension could have been designed to stop what history tells us happened”
leads me to think I dont think you have a full grasp of what is potentialy going on??
The reason for Mbeki to suspend Pikoli is simple Pikoli would simply have turned his attention to Mbeki after selebi as a corrupt relationship exists between Selebi and Mbeki. TM will land up in the dock, so why not suspend him and put a more pro friendly Mbeki mate in charge of the NPA?
This is going to take time but all your leaders in the ANC are going down one by one
khosi // Jan 23, 2009 at 12:48 pm
sorry man damn it ur dense, Vuka my man
Its sad that Tim is not here to identify trolls, anymore. Or is it, they are trolls for having a point of view that counters his? hmm
Khosi – Succession – interesting point….. The ANC does have this tradition of not having contested leadership elections, and also traditionally the deputy pres is taken to be the heir apparent. Within this framework I don’t think Mbeki did anything useful to prevent the current leadership debacle. Appointing Zuma and the firing him, and also running for a third term were each disastarous moves on his part.
Khosi – I don’t mind should anyone call me the MAIN TROLL AMONG ALL TROLLS, but let’s look into your 2nd last submission: “On your second paragraph. I think your thoughts touch on my line of thinking. Whatever the threat he perceived is, it may be true that he need 2 weeks to do what he needed to do as president, WE do not know. Maybe on the second week he was going to put Selebi on leave to allow for the court appearance and search procedures , WE do not know.”
I mean, really now, a president keeping us in the dark and feeding us shit (like musrooms), so that “WE do not know”, needs two weeks instead of one to put a man on long paid leave pending investigations? Shit, man, I think even a 5th grader could do better than that. But, when the mighty Thabo Mbeki (who is scared of his police chief and a third of his force revolting should the chief be arrested – couldn’t resist paralleling this to Lucifer’s fall), he throws his toys out of the cot; and, because the NPA chief gave him only one week, he suspends the NPA chief, but not the suspected criminal. And then he still waits (not only for the two weeks he asked for) until Mpshe and a panel of experts (what made them more expert than the DSO advocates? I dont know!) decides after a thorough investigation that it would be better to put the police chief on long leave (not suspend him), and demands (and gets) a more amicable arraingment than an arrest for his dear friend, Selebi – which is then compensated by the charged (not arrested) police chief by marching a whole force of police members into Gerrie Nel’s home to arrest him – just because he dared investigate him and his friends. I mean, really now – who are you trying to fool here?! If the average voter still believes in Mbeki’s bona fides, he believes in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy.
Peter // Jan 23, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Im afriad Mbeki is Africa’s Nixon
Vuyo // Jan 23, 2009 at 9:59 am
Just some more of Mbeki denialism
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2006-11-09-mbeki-dismisses-calls-for-selebi-inquiry
Enquiry 2
Your suggestion that the national security issue was created by the President is an extraordinary leap of faith
Not a leap of faith at all
http://www.thepresidency.gov.za/docs/reports/ndpp_enquiry/nddpfinal.pdf
Enquiry 3
Heres the SAPS Act
http://www.saps.gov.za/docs_publs/legislation/juta/a68of1995.pdf
Vuyo // Jan 23, 2009 at 9:59 am
Just some more of Mbeki denialism
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2006-11-09-mbeki-dismisses-calls-for-selebi-inquiry
Enquiry 2
Your suggestion that the national security issue was created by the President is an extraordinary leap of faith
Not a leap of faith at all
http://www.thepresidency.gov.za/docs/reports/ndpp_enquiry/nddpfinal.pdf
Enquiry 3
Heres the SAPS Act
http://www.saps.gov.za/docs_publs/legislation/juta/a68of1995.pdf
Anon,
Are you really a magistrate? How can you call someone who has not been found guilty, a ‘criminal’?
You obviously have no objectivity at all. Hardly the stuff magistrates should be made of. Why should anyone take you seriously.
Anon,
Let me withdraw the previous contribution. I seem to have misread you.
Khosi, if we went to school together, I would have teased you and taken your lunch money, because I’m mean. Have a good weekend people, I’m going to attend to my super social life now and hope you do too. Friend out.
Thanks Khosi – we judicial officers know that it is dangerous to say that someone is a criminal before they are convicted – that is why we usually add the words “suspected” to “criminal” and “alleged” to “offence” or “crime” before someone is convicted. it is usually lay-people (that are subjectively involved) that misread or misconstrue such (objective) statements to mean that the person who says so (the media or the court if you wish) has already convicted the person or made a finding that he has committed a crime. However, as I have said eons ago, the ‘evidence’ or ‘facts’ that you and Thabo Mbeki always wanted, existed on the docket (-s) against Selebi, and that it was not for the President to decide whether there is a case against him, but for the courts, which is what Pikoli wanted to see happening (and Mbeki apparently not). By the way, to what or who do I have to be grateful for no longer being called ‘RAT’?
I guess what I really would want to know from Mbeki is who send those “hoax” emails if Billy Masetlha did not.
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-11-11-what-anc-hoax-email-report-says
Anon,
Your bona fides have not changes much. But I have come to accept that Rats deserve to have their say, and be listened to, even when the credibility of the view is wanting as a result of over inferrencing. But TM is a smart guy, you will just end up by accusing him like the rest of his detractors. You will also notice that the Selebi matter is the one subject that the so called ‘Zuma camp’ does not rubbish TM on. There may just be more to the death of a party funder, than meets the eye.
Friend,
I did not notice that you went to school, at all. My apologies.
Pierre, Hier het jy nou ‘n tierkat in die hoenderhok losgelaat. Dankie vir jou klip-in-die-bos blogs somtyds.
Ons nie-reageergerders maar bloglesers geniet dit ook.
Khosi – “You will also notice that the Selebi matter is the one subject that the so called ‘Zuma camp’ does not rubbish TM on. There may just be more to the death of a party funder, than meets the eye. ”
I can’t agree with you more on this one. In fact, I have it on very reliable information from a high-up police official (who naturally must remain anonymous – as he or she is not a Selebi and ANC supporter) that this is the reason why certain specialist investigation bureaus of SAPS (like SANAB) have been closed down and why so many drug-trafficking cases never hit the courts, even though it is very rife in SA. Drug-trafficking by some “party funders” (your jargon) had to be turned a blind eye, otherwise the party would lose a large part of its funding. Apparently, drug trafficking (or rather, drug traffickers) and arms peddling (or arms peddlers) funded as much as 60% of the ANC’s coffers before 1994, so logically, the expert units in SAPS working with those things had to be shut down. This is the kind of thing (but also money-laundering)that Kebble, Agliotti and Selebi were involved in. This is also the impression as far as funding through the Arms deal Scam is concerned, and why Jacob Zuma was reportedly scape-goated to shield other ANC party-leaders involved therein. And this is probably why party leaders (including Thabo Mbeki at the time and the leaders [note the plural because I am not totally convinced Zuma is the real leader] of the ANC today) would rather see Pikoli sacked, and replaced with an ANC-friendly NDPP, so that the matters of Selebi and Jacob Zuma can be made to go away.
Shoe! Koos. Hoe’s daai vir ‘n knuppel in die duiwehok (klip in die bos)?!
Anonymouse // Jan 23, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Shoe! Koos. Hoe’s daai vir ‘n knuppel in die duiwehok (klip in die bos)?!
Mouse, Wat ek van hierdie blog geniet, is die “regsaspeke” wat altyd gerespekteer moet word.(Behalwe wanneer ‘n politikus betrokke is!) Ek het gepraat van ‘n “tierkat in die hoenderhok’. Nou verander jy die onderwerp na ‘n “knuppel in die duiwehok”. Jy en ek het nou hierdie sg “regsgeleerdes ” moontlik aan die dink gesit. Ek geniet jou insette.
Pierre, Jou blog bly en is anti-kulturele kwessies. Daarom is dit vir my ‘n blye dag dat ons reenboognasie (Xhosa, Indier, Kaapse Keipie, Engelsman en Afrikaner) vandag die Aussies opgevoeter het. Jammer as ek buite orde is maar my SA beker loop oor!!
Anonymouse // Jan 23, 2009 at 6:08 pm
I know nothing of those stories. People have spoken of them, but no one has been credible enough, hence, to me, they are urban legends. Maybe our friend, cde Ishmael, should interject at this point and dispel any unfounded theories. Lest they be accepted as the truth.
But ke, that said and idealism aside, we have the freedom that we have now.
I’m flabbergasted – how do people still argue this issue?
khosi – An urban legend? You started it, remember? At the levels I move, there is no room for urban legends – or forces moving in the dark that Julius is so scared of. By the way, this sentence of yours, the first part!, is what we lawers would call a contradictio in terminis: “I know nothing of those stories. People have spoken of them”.
Koos – Is jy dalk die VDM? Ja daai drie paaltjies (met drie beurte oor!) was lekkerrrr!
Big Slipper – Flabbergasted = BRRRRRR!
Anonymouse // Jan 23, 2009 at 9:52 pm
I see nothing wrong with that statement.
Was watching the news last night….
Patricia de Lille hit the nail on the head where in the ginwala report does it say specificaly that Pikoli “BREACHED” National Security?
It only mentions Nation Secuirty was not “CONSIDERED”
What this is telling us is Pikoli did not think carefully about National Security but Pikoli is not a Security Specialist but he still acted morally and legally however in order to Justify his firing he needed to “BREACH” National Security committing a violation willfully without complete lack of regard for legal, moral, or ethical considerations.
Was this the Case? NO!!!
Now we know the ANC is looking at or has appointed Durban advocate Muzi Wilfred Mkhize as the new head do the National Prosecuting Authority next month
We have a committee that is dominated by ANC Members who have been instructed by the powers that be in the ANC that Pikoli must go already, thrashing out scathing attacks on Pikoli in the hearing by the ANC.
Let them keep this up cos all indications are that he could have it overturned in court, and so he should, any court in south africa will pick up that Pikoli did not have a fair hearing.
What is good about this is if this happens Pikoli will expose the Political reason for firing him not only that but all the MP’s who did the deliberating will end up in the dock
Whta is the point of this Hearing the court is going to over rule the firing based purly on the fact he has not had a fair hearing.
Pikoli has already threatend Motlanthe for legal action and Pikoli will approach the court on the grounds that the decision to remove him was not rational. Motlanthe also reportedly offered Pikoli a R10m settlement, a move that could strengthen Pikoli’s legal challenge.