I am in Salvador de Bahia in Brazil and the streets are teeming with people preparing for carnival. This city was the port through which slaves from Africa were imported into Brazil and today the population is still 80% black. But the weird thing is, when I got on the plane from Sao Paulo, there were only two black people on the flight.
Not so weird really, because in Brazil until very recently there was no public or private affirmative action programmes and the official discourse has been one of non-racialism – officially there is no race and no racims in Brazil.
But if one starts reading about Brazil one soon finds out that there is indeed such a thing as race – although the law has not discriminated oficially against black people for many years. Race is lived by people and race also, to some degree, determines their place and status in society. And because of the official ¨non-racilism¨ there has been no reconing with the slave past.
So although almost 50% of the people of Brazil are not white, the top echelons of the government, judiciary and other elite institutions are almost exclusively staffed by white people. No wonder there were hardly any black people on the flight to Salvador.
Which makes me wonder whether those in South Africa (some COPE members? DA types?) who argue that affirmative action should be dealt with in terms of class and not race are not very, very wrong. Could it be possible that because of the oficial colour blind stance of the government, racism and racial prejudice is socially perpetuated almost just as effectivcely as apartheid was perpetuated with the assistance of legislation?
I am still reading up on this phenomenon, but at this stage I would have had to be blind not to see how poverty in Brazil is racialised and I would have to be stupid not to ask why, despite the fact that there is no official apartheid and have not been for more than a hundred years, black people are still the one´s cleaning the streets and white people are the one mostly sitting around sipping beer.
At least in Salvador black people are the majority and it is far more mixed than in other parts of Brazil. This is not Cape Town. But I would recommend a trip to Brazil to Helen Zille and Mosieu Lekota who talk about an ¨opportunity society¨¨ but do not seem too keen on oficially sanctioned, race based, affirmative action. Without it, I wonder, will there ever really be equal oportunities for all in South Africa?
Me thinks not.
Nee Prof, gewoonlik praat jy sin, maar nou praat jy darem stront…
Race base AA = apartheid! Finish and klaar!
Affirmative Action based on class or social background would have solved Brazil’s skewed society without the tunnel vision of race.
And Affirmative Action based on social background will be much better in SA then this bollocks we have now. Imagine a rich black person that went to school in a private school in Switzerland and studied at Oxford, do you really suggest he should get privileged in the job market because of his race?!!!
Whereas AA on social class will make that same person compete fairly and disqualify him from somebody local that had to walk 6 km’s to the nearest school with no handbooks but still got a degree at UNISA while washing cars as an example?
The second person deserves the privilege not because he is black or Indian (or even white) but because his social background dictates that the was disadvantaged.
I don’t agree with PdV. Did Brazil implement any “class based affirmative action” either ? If it had, surely there would have been much more black representation in the upper echelons of society since the class-race correlation is just as prominet in Brazil as in south Africa..
The race based AA, in conjunction with BEE are the two building stones of Mbeki’s Africanism – it is in fact the mere transfer of wealth from a white elite to a black elite has lead to the very same corruption and cronyism that PdV has such an incurable obsession with.
PdV is pleading for the perpetuation of that racist AA system because we all know that it has benefited the entrenched white elite just as much as the new black elite that it created.
As a Black person, I tend to agree with GG here. Lets face it, SA does have a large proportion of Black elites who can afford to send their kids to private schools and to varsity abroad to get The Best education.
Then we have those who even struggle to send their kids to public schools (simply because they even cant afford the school fees), fortunately enough those kids tend to do well (averagely) enough to get a varsity entry and they get funding from NSFAS.
Then when it comes to job opportunities, who should enjoy the previledge of AA here? Certainly not the guys from private schools!!
Yes, AA was ok during the first 2-10 of its implementation, but I really think that now we should have “AA-Light” – thats AA based on Social Background rather than pure Race.
Ozoneblue, did you read :”in Brazil until very recently there was no public or private affirmative action programmes”? If you had you’d realise that the true success or failure of the system cannot be determined overnight. As in SA the outcries are loudest now that we see how flawed the system really is.
I think that BEE in its current form should be made to help the PDI’s but making sure that the wealth does not fall into the hands of a few politically associated men men and women who would make it WITHOUT BEE. The problem with making it class-based is that the start point wasn’t the same. Eg a 100m race has to be run from the start line, when some people are futher ahead than others its not equal. In that sense the athletes who come last despite the advantage they received don’t quite merit that boost. If there are poor white people who had a greater opportunity to become educated then they can hardly ask for help when the govt gave them so much under the previous dispensation. Are we stuck between a rock and a hard place? I feel that the best thing to do is to rework the current model to a great extend but it should remain BEE. There should also be some assistance given to the very poor white people.
I should point out that ozoneblue sems to support neither class-based economic empowerment nor BEE. Is there an alternative that he can offer us? When doing so please be mindful of the fact that BEE is supposed to be a short-term maesure. Affirmative action (quotas) maty remain for a while to make sure that the scales aren never tipped beyong what is necessary for any particular race.
Since when has Brasil been independent from Colonialism and free of slavery? Is this perhaps about free (black) people not seizing opportunities?
Yes,
The difference is in the RSA officially, and especially constitutionally, there is races – and constitutionally first class and second class citizens.
For centuries South Africa and its historical components have been hobbled developmentally by racist thinking . Racist thinking is erroneous thinking and cannot be cured by more of the same. Unfortunately the thinking which underlies AA and BEE is racist and thus these pieces of legislation are fundamentally flawed. That people were disadvantaged by prior racist thinking is undeniable but to continue with racist thinking, albeit under other names, in order to compensate for previous wrongs does not make sense and only perp;etuates problems.
It is surely not beyond the wit of South Africans to come up with non-race based ways to right the very real developmental consequences of previous race based errors . AA and BEE are a politically convenient rather than socially healthy way of trying to tackle that challenge.
Brasil is a different animale altogether
The history of slavery in Brazil is considerably different from the history of slavery in the US & SA
Blacks in Brazil were allowed to purchase their freedom so was breading between slave and master was open.
Brazil the very poor make up a large percentage of the population, but it is categorically untrue to say all the wealthy are white, and all the poor, nonwhite.
It is also inaccurate to look at Brazilian society as if it were a society with the same potential for upward mobility as exists in our society, and then to blame poverty of people of color on racism. In Brazil it is extremely difficult for anyone to advance social levels, regardless of race.
This is why BEE is a Flawed system and is a very short sighted system the problem lies here which non of the parties here in south africa fully grasp
South Africas and Brazils low education attainment compared to other middle income countries reflects their highly unequal distribution of education, with high education for a few combined with limited attainment for the great majority.
Compared to Brazil and South Africa, the United States, with four times greater per capita income, has
high average levels and a relatively equal distribution of education and has had no need for BEE programms
From economic analyses that a higher average level and a more equal distribution of education contributes to a more equal distribution of income, as well as enhancing overall economic growth.
For once, I agree with Ozoneblue. The way to get rid of racism is to get rid of racism. It’s not going to make us as South Africans less sensitive to race by implementing more race-based employment policies. In fact, the results are the exact opposite.
It must be a South African trait to sit on a plane and make conjectures about the demographics of a country. By the same methods, I might as well sit in a Zola Bud taxi and deduce that South Africa’s White people have been disenfranchised because they don’t typically make use of the public transport that the Black majority uses. Woops!
Besides that, this is the demographics for Brazil:
The last National Research for Sample of Domiciles (PNAD) census revealed the following: 49.4% of the population are White, about 93 million; 42.3% are Pardo (brown), about 80 million; 7.4% are Black, about 13 million; 0.5% are Asian, about 1 million; and 0.4% are Amerindian, about 519,000.
http://oglobo.globo.com/economia/mat/2008/09/18/pnad_2007_trabalho_acesso_servicos_basicos_melhoram_no_brasil_mas_pais_caminha_passos_lentos_no_combate_mazelas-548273818.asp
Woops! Seems that most Brazilians identify themselves as White. Does this mean that we should expect to see that most of the Brazilian government is White? Of course not. Your skin colour has no bearing on whether you do a job well or not. That’s the point of an open society – that you can do what you do well and not be hampered by race, class, gender or any other prejudice you may have. The fact that Brazil has one of the world’s largest economies testifies that this open society idea is a good one and it will put you in your place – your place being defined by your own effort.
More food for thought: The upper echelons of government in Cuba is also largely white and that in a society which is more than 60% black or mixed race.
Eat your hat PW. Those terrible kommuniste have what you wanted to have.
Pierre, don’t follow your logic. If you target class you will by definition target race i a country like South Africa or Brazil, but without using the language of race.
Have a nice party Pierre!
Read
http://www.globalrights.org/site/DocServer/LA_Fact_Sheets_AffirmActionBrazil.pdf?docID=3623
As I have said before, Pierre, I am convinced this is one area where you are uncharacteristically unwilling to entertain serious debate. It is not so much that you are wrong in your conclusion (although I do think, on balance, that you are). It is that you do not even see it as a bona fide debate.
So let me ask you: could you concede that there are any non-trivial downsides to AA in any of its forms? In other words, irrespective of the ultimately conclusion, can you acknowledged that there are two sides to the story – that it is not just racists and “liberals,”, but also progressives and socialists who have grave misgivings?
Also, are you going to respond to David Benatar’s article on the
… subject in the current SALJ?
Michael Osborne @ 1:21 pm
“that it is not just racists and “liberals,”, but also progressives and socialists who have grave misgivings?”
I think you are being unfair to PdV – never used words like “racist” and “liberals” he said the DA and COPE types LOL It is quite a relief and pleasure to talk about anything else on site besides corruption and the Anti-ANC’s abuse of the topic of corruption to vent their thinly disguised hatred of the ANC.
Coming back to AA and BEE. to me the biggest concern is the perpetuation of the Apartheid era racial classification system in the way that racism has become entrenched, in the name of BEE and AA, in our thought processes and semantics. It is clearly incompatible with the very notion of a non-racial democracy and has failed miserably to bring about reconciliation and to lay a foundation for a new, post-Apartheid sense of national identity.
I completely agree with ozoneblue on this one.
O3blue – I also agree with you. However, do you have some suggestions about what to put in the place of BEE and AA, if anything, since that has been the biggest complaint below in one of the blogs on COPE’s stance on AA and BEE.
chris mcdaniel // Feb 18, 2009 at 8:41 am
“It is also inaccurate to look at Brazilian society as if it were a society with the same potential for upward mobility as exists in our society, and then to blame poverty of people of color on racism. In Brazil it is extremely difficult for anyone to advance social levels, regardless of race.”
Since the Prof only had two black people on the flight with him, it would suggest that it is easier for whites to advance, don’t you think.
Unless, your contention is that white people advanced because they are just more intelligent?
The current manner that AA, EE, BEE and BBBEE have been implimented in SA has been a total disaster. We have seen the emergence of a (new and growing) black elite, which is not wrong in itself, but AA was not meant to create any type of elite but correct an imbalance. I blame this on the law of unintended consequences, which ought to be corrected by policy.
But it does not mean that a correction mechanism is not neccessary. There is a scarcity of jobs in SA and it is not fair to have the majority of these jobs vesting in a particular race group. I am not advocating the employment of inexpirenced, unskilled and incompetent black people. If you are employing these people in the name of AA, you not doing your job properly and you are at odds with the purpose of the policy.
Now if my contention is acepted that the policy is there to correct the imbalances of the races, then we must also accept that class or upbringing has nothing to do with AA, as it is purely about correcting the imbalances that exist in the work places as far as race is concerned.
The fact that AA perpetuates names imposed on us by the apartheid masters, is a moot point.
Anonymouse @ 4:33 pm
I want to see a system that is both input and output based. For larger companies with turn-overs higher than a certain threshold I propose a system where companies becomes directly involved in “adopting” some previously disadvantaged schools from within that area.
Typically, from the “input side’, the company in partnership with the department and the parents will invest directly in both the recourses and management of such a school. From the output-side the company will be obliged to allocate bursaries and a pre-established quota of employment to learners from these previously disadvantaged schools.
I look at AA as a national bursary and mentorship program.
BEE comes in when the local community is allowed to purchase/allocated a quota of preferential shares in such companies.
Good grief, Ozone and I are on the same page here?!
You cannot correct a mistake by making another mistake…because then there will always be a mistake to make. Racism, which is discrimination based on race, will never correct the imbalance of the past. It will create a new imbalance, and if anything, will entrench, rather than change, the old mindsets that many South Africans harboured towards each other.
Black people still believe white people think they are inferior, because white people speak out against AA. Thus, black people may tend to start ignoring the contribution whites can make, because of this perception, and in the process, lose out on valuable skills and experience that some people have gained in specialised fields over 20, 30 or 40 years.
By the same token, AA leads white people to think that black people are lazy, incompetent and greedy, based on what we see in most government departments and parliment. This fosters, rather than changes, a resentment towards black people.
The above are generalisations naturally. My point again is that race based policies will never fix older race based policies, and will never heal the hurt of the past…it may smooth over the past for some people, but will create hurt in a new group of people. The argument that whites did it to blacks, so now it’s only fair that they’re on the other end is purely a vengeful one, and cannot be defended on the basis of healing and unifying a broken nation.
There must be other ways to do it…I think of winning the rugby world cups, which was celebrated in the streets by everyone (until the politicians jumped on board and reminded everyone about race – again)…I think of corporate responsibility programs, where (like Ozone mentioned), companies adopt schools or leaners and mentor and support them. That results in a win-win for everybody.
You cannot, and will not, be able to heal a nation by perpetrating the same thing that broke it in the first place, just in the opposite direction. That’s like saying if I have one flat tire, I should puncture the other one too to make sure my car drives on an even keel.
We need everybody – skilled educated labour, commerce, industry – we need them all to get on board with making sure people have opportunities. If you tell them that they absolutely have to employ black people, even if they are less qualified than white applicants, they’re going to push back, and the people suffering are not the politicians making the demands – it’s the people that need the help. If you asked them to implement a system like Ozone mentioned, perhaps incetivising with tax breaks and a national recognition program, I think you’d see a huge turnaround in attitudes.
The sad thing is, we’ve squandered 14 years already…lets hope somebody wakes up before we lose two generations in the political bickering that keeps happening.
O3blue et Big Slipper – At long last we are positively thinking and debating about solutions rather than saying: “Apartheid (and prison) is to blame, and therefore, AA, BEE, Corruption, etc are all allright and excusable.” I am all for government (yes, and private companies!) spending more on creating equal opportunities, firstly in education and training and then, when people have been appropriately trained, equal chances to employment. We have had much too much of appointing people on an “ability to become competent” basis (God forbid that such a guy flies the plane that I am in; or presides over a trial where I am the accused person!) and expenditure to employ people that cannot (do not want to) do the job and to correct their mistakes afterwards. Tomorrow I am going to Kruger National Park again, for training (I’m the trainer), and one of my pet projects is that learners (mostly black) are made “Candidate Nature Conservationists” in their free time (weekends and school holidays) and that post-school bursaries are awarded to them to go and study nature conservation and/or law enforcement after that. Some of the local mines in our area have already started buying into funding needy learners that are willing to get an education and to fund even their tertiary endeavours. That I am all for. But, AA and BEE as it is currently being practiced – that is a thorn in my side.
I am learning little, if not anything! Can we start to debate with the necessary energy and facts. I used to enjoy opening this blog. It is sinking in a bottomless pit of mediocrity!
Perhaps you should read the posts first…or do you not enjoy it when normally adversarial contributors agree on an issue and offer constructive thoughts on how best to improve a dire situation?
Pierre, I have a suggestion for you. First thing you do when you return is write a letter to your employer tendering your resignation. Next day, reapply for your post, insisting that the selection process be subject to the highest level of affirmative action.
This will set a marvellous example. And it will place beyond doubt your deep commitment to rigorous affirmative action at every level of the teaching profession.
Perhaps one of the biggest flaws of the AA/BEE programmes is that there are no real measurables in place. So often we see laws being passed which have no hope of being policed effectively, which does nothing more than render those laws redundant.
What are the true measurements of BEE and AA? Who sets the measurement criteria and who monitors and measurements outputs against these? Are there enough checks and balances in place to ensure that those who really require the “benefit” of these programmes are, in fact, the recipients? How will we ever know if the prescribed outcomes have been attained?
If we begin to run our country like a business, and not an emotional hotbed, perhaps we will attain greater success.
In it’s manifesto, the DA’s approach to BEE is as follows:
The DA is fully behind broad-based black economic empowerment. If correctly implemented, it will pull people into the economy, reduce unemployment and stimulate growth.
However, BEE has become elitist rather than broad based, and as a result it has excluded millions of deeply disadvantaged South Africans from the economy. The DA will review the BEE scorecard to ensure that it accurately
prioritises the interests of those who have fallen by the wayside, not thosewho are already reaping the rewards of the new South Africa. This review will focus on:
· Placing less emphasis on ownership, and more emphasis on skills training and socio-economic investment, in the weightings accorded to the various categories used to evaluate businesses.
· Developing ways to prevent credits from being used over and over again by the same individuals.
· Establishing an ombudsman to resolve questions of compliance quickly.
Whatever scorecard emerges from this process will be implemented properly, and any individuals found manipulating the requirements to suit their own interests will be excluded from any further opportunities to obtain government business.
Prof, I suggest you read again Kanya Adam’s PhD study into this subject, published by Schlettwein in 1997 titled ‘the politics of redress’.
Anonymouse @ 7:59 pm
“At long last we are positively thinking and debating about solutions rather than saying: “Apartheid (and prison) is to blame,”
I think this is the very first thread that I have participated on this blog where the topic has not been corruption, we hate the ANC and more corruption, we hate the ANC.
as I said before – corruption is a problem but the sensationalist obsession with it diverts everybody from having any other substantial debates, on issues that imo, are more important than the corruption problem.
Samantha
I agree with you in toto. Measurables! Measurables! measurables!
Without measurables AA/BEE is miserable.
‘issues that …are more important than the corruption problem.’
You mean like bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism and embezzlement? Anyway, sounds like your ANC decided to go against your advice – ANC admits corruption weakness – http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=6&art_id=vn20090219110136536C477918
Thanks, Prof. It’s true that black South Africans are still very poor whilst white priviledge is perpetuated. People make sucha fuss about the balck elite (which is not even a tenth of the white elite.
But AA should be intensified. White South Africans are ducking it. Black with Masters degrees are serving whites in restuarants-some such whites being uneducated but are afforded priviledges simply because of their skin color. I say; Piere de Vos for President!
I fully support the idea that affirmative action should not be race based for the simple reason that not all previously disadvantaged people need affirmative action.
For instance I am a so-called PDI, but have a succesful professional career and can compete with any of my peers based on merit. I was fortunate because my parents sacrificed everything for my education and I started my career without having the burden of a student loan. This is a luxury that many of my white colleagues do not even have. There is therefore in my mind absolutley no reason why I should receive any kind of preferrential treatment based on my race.
If you base affirmative action on other criteria such as the candidate’s socio-economic position then you would in any event reach out to PDIs while avoiding the trap of the black elite and the politically connected.
What I hate about affirmative action based on race is that people automatically assume that because I am a PDI, I was appointed to my position based on the colour of my skin. I few months ago I was appointed to a panel of consultants for a company through a very strict assessment and interview process. Yet the rest of the panel (guess their race) who were also appointed through this process, were very suspect about my competencies. I had to work extra hard (not that I mind) to gain their trust and acceptance.
The Big Slipper, I beg to differ a bit with your observation of Black vs White with regards to AA/ BEE
The reason some black people feel a sense of resentment towards whites who oppose BEE/ AA isn’t necessarily because they oppose it, its mainly because more often than not the whites who oppose it do so without a good reason. They tend to pretend they don’t live in suburbs and don’t go to better schools. It irritates some black people when they hear their white counterparts speak as if there was never Apartheid and equality. A good place to start is to search for the group “One Million Against Affirmitive Action In South Africa” if u have Facebook. It has more than 20000 members, most of which are white youths. If u read what they say in their wall and discussion topics, u’lll realize why there are black people who dislike hearing a white person moan about AA/ BEE. A lot of them don’t even know te difference between BEE and AA, let alone what it stands to achieve. Even the group’s founder and most active member thought AA was invented and done only in SA. He threatened to set an American woman on fire in the group because she had studied AA in varsity and was highlighting its bright side. His friends said they’d spit on her etc.
It then becomes quite ridiculous to expect black youths to find AA wrong when the white youth thinks and speaks that way. Visit the group if u can.
William // Feb 18, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Far from it unless you have lived in brazil and can see first hand on the subject of racism and class seperation for yourself bottom line i dont really know the dynamics of brazil but i do know about the dynamics of south africa and the one thing that will boil down to is equal distribution of education. You dont need AA or BEE, its rather ironic and comical to be in a country where the majority are black and need AA to get jobs should be the other way round for Minorities?? but yes understand the history of SA but the problem lies with the government.
Now lets look at it like this Stellenbosch University has a more or less 30% non-white and majority white……. in other words its a prestigious white school, and theres nothing wrong with that….the problem i feel lies with what has your government done about leveling out the education, is there a prestigious black University that would be internationaly recognized? how many are there? like a black Harvard. The thing is if you provide a person with the skills and knowledge well then youll find more black owned companies more black upliftment and a stronger economy. Yes you can argue but the government provides free schooling in rural areas, thats not good enough, social grants must be given where a company can pay back the government for the skills that an employee developed during school.
Forget about AA and BEE the model doesnt work, just start with distribution of education and things will fall in place
Chris I agree with your last post. AA and BEE seem to tear down rather then build up, lower stamdards rather than raise them. Access to education and a culture shift maye be required. How do miniroties like Chinese and Koreans do so well even where language and culture is against them? They embrace learning, the language (usually English) and prosper. SA need to start seeing itself as a minority in a prosperous world and start looking at what it needs to do to fit in…
What Shakira said is also true – AA harms those who have succeeded on merit, creates distrust and destroys peoples will to perform. If people know their skin colour means they won’t get a promotion, what motivation is there to perform? A friend of mine is taking his skills away from Eskom and to Perth, Australia. Eskoms come back – the possibility of a promotion with a nett increase in salary of around R600,00. pm.
The reason why class based aa will not work, or will not work as well, is that there is racism in the world. People are not generally discriminated against because they are poor but because they are poor and/or black. Even if you are Tokyo Sexwale´s son and you wonder down long street, chances are when you enter the shop the assistant is going to follow you around and check if you do not steal anything. That is called racism. Without race-based aa this can never be addressed. But the WAY in which this is done, is another matter. There are downsides to perpetuating racial thinking but as far as I can tell there is no other way to address RACISM. One way to help prevent problems with aa is to talk more about race and how it really does not tell the truth about a person, to counteract the race-essentialism of Mbeki and Eugene Terreblanche. Race is a construct – yes a construct expereinced and lived by all, but still just a construct. We have to problematise race and question its stability and the Truth of it. That is the kind of discourse on race I would like to see – not one that pretends we are all happy and equal now and we should avoid race at all cost.
Pierre is right, racism is a problem.
Unfortunately though as pointed out before, studies and exhaustive questionnaires conducted in South Africa have shown that black South Africans say they experience racism most acutely from other black South Africans.
How does race based AA address this effectively? This is a real tammeletjie.
And Pierre why don’t you do as Michael suggests. Resign from your post.
PS: How’s the party?
chris mcdaniel // Feb 19, 2009 at 2:08 pm
I agree with most of your argument but disagree that race based AA is discrimitory. Again, the government dropped the ball on this one and frankly if we wait for them to come up with a sustainable education strategy, we will wait forever.
If the Prof resigns, I gaurantee that he will get a new job without missing a salary.Contrary to perception, the white male is still the employee of choice. Consequently, AA is still needed.
“Pierre, I have a suggestion for you …”
Michael, Michael, Michael. Didn’t you just the other day call me a sadist? Well, parlez pour votre self!
I am not a teacher although I taught for six years and I am married to a teacher. My conclusion from this and other information is that generally Asian students are tops. They disciplined and work hard (No wonder they are so successful in many parts of the world where they are in the minority).
Therefore if Khavita walks down the street and enters a schoolyard my immediate reaction would be here walks an Asian youth, hardworking and disciplined.
Am I, therefore, a racist?
By the way, I am not Asian.
Pierre,
No amount of race based affirmative action will eradicate racism. In fact in my experience it has the opposite effect. If there was no race based affirmative action my achievements alone would be enough to earn the respect of my peers, but instead it is now assumed that I achieved what I did because of the assistance of AA.
In any event the aims of AA and BEE are not to eradicate racism but to achieve a more equal society. And you can achieve that without making race one of your qualifying criteria.
In a candid essay, White Under Black (1983), University of Zimbabwe Professor Marshall Murphree made five observations about race relations in this country that are worth repeating as we stop to reflect on events as they unfold today. He observed that:
-As a group, whites share, with an emergent black elite, a privileged economic status which places them far above the bulk of the population;
-Privileged elites do not abandon their privileges lightly, and prejudice, although more mutable, has a tenacity and irrationality which tends to worsen in the face of change to the unknown – in this case, black rule;
-Racially visible social and economic elites without political power are in a dangerous position – vulnerable to the constant danger that political elites may choose to operationalise race for political and economic purposes, a technique in which blacks have been well schooled by whites;
-The new black governments have a stake in their white minorities since their skills are a resource they can ill-afford to lose. They also have a stake in establishing a reputation for competency – in this case, in terms of their international image; and
-Whites have been aware of their utility, the utility of their skills, but fear that black governments may view their presence only in instrumental, not intrinsic, terms. If this is the case they are potentially expendable when their skills are no longer needed.
From an essay by the Late Prof Masipula Sithole of Zimbabwe (Fingaz, May 2000)
I think that many white people are doing exceptionally well as a result of AA. They have started their own firms. When they could no longer supply to government, they shifted to supply to local industry. When they could no longer supply to local industry, they shifted their attention to international markets. The result is that the wage gap has increased, not decreased. Furthermore, the government is typically the worst customer, and competing via tender is very difficult. This is not only the case in RSA.
Where AA freaks me out, is where a local gov decide to appoint a less experienced person based on AA principles, when the person is FAR-less experienced than a white person able to do the job. This often results in mismanagement, and then people have to buy water, leading to the poor suffering. This means one person is empowered, and a whole community is disempowered. The rich white and black people can buy bottled water.
But let us look at some practical ideas. Is it not possible to make it more clear how many times a person can benefit from AA. Is the idea not to help more people into the system? Is it not unfair if one person in the stretch of 5 years can get 5 jobs because they are black?
Another idea could be to advertise a job (with a clear skills specification etc.). If not black candidate with suitable expertise or skills can be found, appoint a white person on a 1 year contract, and continue the search (or mentor someone). This means service delivery can continue, while people are trained for positions.
So I am not suggesting to scrap AA, but to rather try and get it to work for both individuals and the society.
JuniorJohn, the worrying thing about some of those peopl in that group (the majority actually) is that they’re YOUNG…some of those kids weren’t even around to remember Aparthied! Yet in their postings, you’ll notice that some of them tend towards racism and bias…so tell me, how does a person who has no experience of Apartheid form racist theories? It comes from their parents and older peers…and this is why I say it is dangerous. While there are race-based policies in place, whether it is called Apartheid or Affirmative Action, the cycle of racism and resentment will never, ever be eradicated.
William // Feb 19, 2009 at 4:00 pm
cool but william what im lost on why not vote for a new government that is going to take education seriously?
AA is: racism, labelism, discriminatory against the very people its trying to uplift. It means you simply have a handicap it does not solve or come up with a solution, all its doing is swapping colors and sex. It does not help with job creations, job creations remain static and it does not help to meand the fences against racism infact it fuels more fire for it. In order to get a certian psotion you must be black – how does that give you self worth? it doesnt its called snubbing one race for another.
We agreed that education needs to distributed it is the only way to level the playing field to create a real since of black economy creating more jobs a bigger economy…imagin a black economy? and a white economy combine the two instead of placing one with another and you got south africa well on its way to being a super power…
AA is B.S it does not lead to growth and its a fake form of self upliftment.
Shawn writes: “I think that many white people are doing exceptionally well as a result of AA. They have started their own firms. When they could no longer supply to government, they shifted to supply to local industry. When they could no longer supply to local industry, they shifted their attention to international markets.”
This is an example of the kind of unintended consequence-type argument that Pierre is just unwilling to engage with, so steadfast is his emotive commitment to the principle of AA. It may be that the upside of AA outweigh the considerations Shawn points to. Or that there is just no empirical evidence for his suggestion. But we may never know, because people like Pierre – who will ordinarily pursue every argument to the n-th degree — tend to lock themselves out of the debate ab initio. Pity.
Only last month – almost to the day – we had what seems like exactly the same discussion (“Maybe politicians must at least pretend to make sense”), and still Pierre sticks to his guns regarding AA. While I’m supposed to respect the opinions of others, in this instance I find it exceptionally hard. But I’ll say this about Pierre: no matter how much I, and others, disagree with him he will never ban you from his blog! Yes, this has happened to me with other bloggers, just because I had the nerve to argue with them.
One month ago, almost to the day, we had what seems an identical discussion (“Maybe politicians must at least pretend to make sense”), and still Pierre sticks to his guns as regards AA. While I agree one should respect the opinions of others, in this instance I find it exceptionally hard. But I’ll say this for Pierre: he handles criticism rather well, whereas there are other bloggers who will unceremoniously bundle you off their blog if you so much as give them an argument.
Clara: my grievance is that Pierre preciseley does not “stick to his guns,” on this subject. Rather (to continue the martial metaphor), he fires off a single volley, then disappears from the field, only to emerge in a distant theatre. I sense that Pierre’s slipperiness here arises from an understanding that his dogmatism might flag in a sustained skirmish.
Agreed. And I like the metaphor.
On this matter Pierre is but a ‘terrorist’ lobbing ideological bombs, and dissapearing before any real engagement with an opposition can start.
He knows his arguments does not have the moral or intellectual firepower to sustain him in a real debate. So why have one?
Pierre has indeed struck a heavy blow by depriving us of his customary insight regarding this terribly important issue.
Customary insight! Pah! He’s given us his customary insight. All that turgid mush about Tokyo Sexwale’s son, and the story about the rich black guy taking the poor white guy out to dinner and the waiter handing the bill to the white guy. All of which has really nothing to do with AA, class-based or otherwise. But when you live in academic halls you hear only the echo of your own quaint notions.
Let’s just say that if your beliefs don’t make accurate predictions – like they don’t in either Brazil or in South Africa – then there is something wrong with your beliefs and not with either system.
Michael and Wessel, give me a break. I am in Salvador enjoying carnival and writing this from an INternet cafe so my full and undivided attention might not be on this BLog 24 hours of the day. THis does NOT mean I cannot defend my views on affirmative action.I have debated with Benatar on the pages of the Cape Times and might well take up the debate in the pages of SALJ. Put simply, if one takes racism seriously one has to address it and one does NOT address it by ignoring it and pretending it does not exist. Affirmative action might not be perfect – and it sure is not implemented perfectly in South Africa – but the argument of CHief Justice John Roberts and others that one gets over race by getting over race seems to me preposterously predicated on the world view of the dominant white group. But maybe that is just me.
OK, Pierre, enjoy that carnival — perhaps it will prepare you for the merry festival of SA politics.
We look forward to you taking up the AA cudgels on your return. But you will have to do better than you did against Benatar in the Cape Times. I am afraid you made real engagement very difficult by micharacterising his position as to be being against all AA all the time.
And please do paint all who disagree with you on this issue as disciples of Chief Justice “Straw Man” Roberts.
One does not wish to render this debate ad hominem. But I remain curious as to whether you are going to resign and reapply for your post — much as I would expect any advocate who took your position to turn away many briefs as a matter of pure principle
It’s going to require some pussyfooting to justify a racist employment policy. AA and BEE are racism. Simply as that.
It’s going to require some pussyfooting to justify a racist employment policy. AA and BEE are racism. Simple as that.
Garg – and now the ANC (or at least, Phosa) is also pussyfooting around these issues in a last minute attempt to win white votes. http://www.news24.com/News24/Elections/News/0,,2-2478-2479_2501471,00.html
comment2,