The Sowetan reported yesterday that a Cape Town student, Chumani Maxwele, 25,was arrested last week on charges of crimen injuria for “waving away” President Jacob Zuma’s noisy, blue-light convoy. Maxwele says he ”waved away” the President’s blue light convoy “as if to say ‘hamba’” because of the noise. The police claim that Maxwele had shown his middle finger to the convoy in that time honoured but slightly rude gesture so beloved in South Africa by drivers with road rage. According to Maxwele:
After that a black BMW X5 pulled up and three guys jumped out, pointing guns at me. They pushed me into their car and shouted at me that I had disrespected the president. They pulled a bag over my head and drove me to Zuma’s residence.
He claims Mowbray police accused him of saying that Zuma had seven wives. They claimed he insulted Zuma – and told him “intelligence” agents would deal with him. The next morning, people whom he believed to be intelligence agents arrived to interrogate him, asking him for his opinion of Zuma and which faction of the ANC he supported at Polokwane. Maxwele said the agents told him “be careful what you do when a convoy passes because people are sensitive. Don’t touch your head or your waist”. In the meantime, plain-clothes officers raided his house, going through his personal diaries and notebooks. Maxwele spent the day in holding cells underneath Wynberg magistrate’s court and was only released 24 hours later.
If any of this is true, the police behaved in a rather shocking and outrageous manner which threatens the dignity and freedom of every South African citizen.
It is true that the crime of crimen injuria does exist in South African law. Traditionally, the crime has been defined as one where a person intentionally and unlawfully impairs the dignity of another person. This means that where someone subjects another person to offensive or degrading treatment, or exposes that person to ridicule or contempt to such a degree that, objectively considered in the light of prevailing norms of society, it is criminally insulting, he or she commits a crime.
Of course, the prevailing norms of society must be judged against the values and norms enshrined in the Constitution. Given the commitment in the Constitution to democratic values, political contestation, the right to vote and free and fair elections, the right to quality and freedom of expression – which includes the freedom to receive and impart ideas and views - hurling racial abuse at another person will probably constitute crimen injuria. Shouting “Jou ma se…..” at your employee might also reach the level of a crime.
However showing the middle finger to a politician or ridiculing a politician in some other way will almost never constitute unlawful behaviour because the prevailing norms in a constitutional democracy allows for robust debate and political contestation. To hold otherwise would be absurd. Imagine in what trouble members of the ANC Youth League would have been for flashing their buttocks at opponents at the Youth league conference, if the court decided that flashing a mere middle finger at someone was unlawful.
In any case, even if a court found that showing someone the middle finger was unlawful, such a person will never be convicted of a crime on the basis of the maxim, de minimis non curat lex (”the law does not concern itself with trifles”). To hold otherwise would be to invite the opening of the floodgates of crimen injuria prosecutions. How many drivers would not find themselves in jail because they lost their tempers? Half the ANC Youth League would have had to be locked up and yours truly would definitely not be a free man for long. A successful prosecution of this case would also invite abuse, as powerful politicians and the police may be tempted to use the crime – as it allegedly did in this case – to stifle legitimate debate and criticism, something that would be in breach of the Bill of Rights.
Maxwele will never be successfully prosecuted. If the allegations are true, he was clearly harassed and intimidated in an unlawful manner by ridiculously overzealous cops. In a constitutional democracy based, inter alia, on the Rule of Law, the President is not entitled to more protection of his dignity than any ordinary person. On the contrary, the President is usually the leader of the majority party in Parliament and as such he should be entitled to less protection of his dignity. If we cannot ridicule the President or flash rude signs at him, our ability to express our feelings as citizens about those who govern us would be severely curtailed. This will infringe on the human dignity of all of us because it will prevent us from expressing our strong opinions about politicians and will thus limit our ability to form and express opinions that are unpopular.
If it is true that the people who interrogated Maxwele asked him about his political views, the police officers or security agents acted in a brazenly partisan manner by asking party political questions with no bearing on the case. This would suggest that the officers were in breach of the provisions of section 199(7) of the Constitution which prohibits any member of the security services from furthering, in a partisan manner, the interests of a particular political party. Maxwele’s political views about Polokwane or his membership of a political party had absolutely nothing to do with the crime he was alleged to have committed. Whether he was a Freedom Front Plus member or a member of Azapo should be of no concern to the police or intelligence services.
The last time I checked, showing someone – especially the President – the middle finger cannot be equated with undermining state security or with a wish to overthrow the state. Instead it shows a healthy disregard for the pomposity and self-importance associated with politicians. A person who flashes a middle finger at the President (or at Julius Malema or Helen Zille, for that matter) might be considered rude by many of us, but such a person is really a good citizen because he is demonstrating an active interest in our political system and the way the country is being run as well as a willingness to express himself about it.
I COULD NOT HELP IT BUT REMEMBER A STORY TOLD IN TARANTINO’S KILL BILL
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Once upon a time in China, some believe around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei, was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei’s infinite power contemplates – which is another way of saying “who knows?” – when a Shaolin monk appeared on the road, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned.
Now, was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei? Or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known were the consequences.
The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple’s head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable.
So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all sixty of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei’s five-point-palm-exploding-heart technique.
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Can Chumani Maxwele take any action against the Police (or government) for this? It’s no good saying that finding that the arrest was unlawful after the fact, if nothing can be done to deter them from doing it again
Shocking
As aside Pierre, your RSS feed broke my blog, so I had to remove it from my side bar. Perhaps you should take a look at it.
I think the middle finger belongs to the befuddled unsolicited legal (poor) advice we receive on this blog. What does the middle finger signify. We widely believe that it denotes “fuck you”.
It will amount to making a caricuture of our hard-won democracy for any rational thinker to suggest you are entitled to hurl insults at a President whose dignity is less important for the suppurating authority he has.
Freedom of expression is not a limitless right. I want to challenge the know it all professor to point out solid case law for his advise. I detest the treatment of Maxwele as I despise his stupid conduct. Does pointing up your middle finger an expression of your political choince in an electoral process. what the act intended at the President or the police protecting the president. What does such a situation have to do with us in the Youth League. Whose buttocks were flashing at the youth league conference, the winners ot loosers? Dear Prof, improve you are growing up. Would an act of undressing in public not constitute public indecency(especially at a youth league conference? Your clients would endure a sentence before a judicial presiding officer.
I did not react this morning when an old white male hooted impatiently at me for observing my engine going off in front of him at a robot along adderly street next to parliament. Had I pointed a middle finger would that constitute a legal triviality? What law. I wish to enrol at the University of Cape Town to learn better.
I hope Chimani does not take the advise sp seriously as to endanger himself in the future! Lets us incite the citizenry to effect a citizen’s arrest of the implicated police officials.
Zuma Nostra – Capo di tutti capi.
Are we going back to the apatheid days of BOSS and detentions without trial? So much for the man of the poor, Jacob Zuma. I hopeSouth African voters are taking note.
@Ishmael,
Which-ever way one looks at it, I am truly disturbed by this and I want to believe that the presidential police were correct in the handling of this matter.
Has it been resolved whether it was, indeed, a middle finger that was waive or a belligerent wave-away to the presidents motorcade? Was Chimani aware that the president was in the motorcade? Was a bag pulled over his head? Was he first taken to a location, other than a police station, where charges were to be rightfully made? assuming it was the middle finger that he gave the president.
For me the answer to these questions will determine my point of view to this whole saga.
Also, do the police have recordings of the interrogation where Chimani, continues to insult the president?
waive = waived
This guy has a clear case for the delict of wrongful arrest and detention. Just see the excellent judgement of judges Msimang and Madondo in Le Roux 2009[4] SA 491 NPD. That case should have been awarded a price as human rights judgement of the year for 2009.
Is’nt there progressively minded lawyers in CT who could take up the case, even on contingency basis if need be?
This is the funniest piece written by Pierre I have ever come across, you must have been smoking some good shit (now I am allowed to write this, right Proff)when you wrote this article, my word it is so absurd!!! Please say it was not you, who wrote this piece or at least admit you had ingested some hallucinogen!!
Khosi, I am going to attend the Budget speech. I think the facts would be elicited by De Vos. He seems to have a cupful of detail on this matter. I am interested to know the actual import of pointing up a middle finger at a person. Does it mean a love you; I hate you; fuck you, your ass, your mother se…, It is not an insult? It is a friendly presidential gesture?
Is one non suited for such an act?
I certainly believe that the police went overboard if such an act ocurred and in the same token hope that Maxwele will not repeat the stupid act. He ought to be studying or thinking better than imitating lunatics at vehicular noise, motorgate or otherwise. He was supposed to demonstrate studently maturity. . The bells are ringing.
apm says:
February 17, 2010 at 10:53 am
I’m pretty sure that Maxwele can take action againt the police and make a six figure amount in the procees (that will be paid by us, the taxpayers, and the halfwitts who should pay).
First let’s look at the alledged crime: Crimen injuria:
Crimen iniuria consists in the unlawful, intentional and serious violation of the dignity or privacy of another. (CR Snyman Criminal Law Fourth Ed 453) It is not without reason that the word “serious” is used.
S v Sharp [2002] JOL 9320 (Ck): The evidence must prove that the action by the accused had indeed impaired the dignity of the complainant. I don’t think anyone can argue that JZ’s dignity was seriously violated by Maxwele.
My opinion: Maxwele did not commit any crime, and no reasonable police official could have thought that he did.
If Maxwele institutes action against the police: Just some of the cases he can use:
Gellman v Minister of Safety and Security 2008 (1) SACR 446 (W):
An arrest is such a drastic interference with the constitutional rights of an individual to freedom of movement and to dignity, that an arrest should only be the last resort as a means of producing an accused person or a suspect in court.
Van Rensburg v City of Johannesburg 2009(1) SACR 32 WLD:
The plaintiff was arrested on a warrant of arrest issued by a magistrate. The arresting officer did nothing to establish if the plaintiff had indeed received the summons before the warrant for his arrest was issued. He was detained for about 5 hours, if my memory serves me well. Van Rensburg was awarder R75000 in damages.
Minister of Safety and Security v Van Niekerk 2008 1 SACR 56 (CC)
“Standing Order (G) 341 . . . makes it clear that arrest is a drastic procedure which should not be used if there are other effective means of ensuring that an alleged offender could be brought to court.”
Le Roux v Minister of Safety and Security and Another 2009 (2) SACR 252 (KZP)
The mere compliance with s 40(1) (b) of the Criminal Procedure Act 51 of 1977 does not render an arrest without warrant lawful; more care and diligence is required of the arresting officer. Since arrest is a drastic interference with an individual’s rights to freedom of movement and to dignity, the court must look further than due compliance with the requirements of s 40(1) (b) of the Act to constitutional principles and the rights to dignity and to freedom as enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996. The arrest must be justified according to the demands of the Bill of Rights. The State action must be such that it is capable of being analysed and justified rationally. The court must not only be content with the finding that the arrest of a suspect fell squarely within the parameters of s 40(1) (b) of the Act; it must also look beyond the provisions of the section to the principles and provisions of the Constitution relating to the right to dignity and freedom in order to determine whether the arrest was justified. There is a duty on our courts to preserve the right to liberty against infringement. Unlawful arrest and detention constitute a serious inroad into the right to liberty and freedom.
And did you hear the responce by the spokesperson for the police on Eyewitness News this morning: Something to the effect that people like Maxwele will be “met by the full force of the law”. I’m afraid the full force of the law (perhaps excluding the Blue Light Brigade and the Spokesperson) will be on Maxwele’s side.
A passing motorgate is pomposity and self importance. what a vitriol!
Ishmael Malale,
It is people like you who will help kill a once noble movement like the ANC by countenancing obvious acts of arrogance.
You should not take the people’s vote for granted,or the words “mene mene tekel …” will forever haunt you when things turn for the worst.
It’s rather obvious: The question is whether, given our constitutional commitment to freedom of expresion and democratic deliberation, it will EVER be unlawful (as opposed to rude) to show someone the middle finger who happens to be a politician? Answer. NO. Even where the dignity of a person is impaired by being shown the middle finger, such impairment will not be UNLAWFUL because the “legal convictions of the community” (also called the boni mores) would not consider it to be unlawful. If someone shows me the middle finger, so what? Personally I will laugh at the person and point out that his expression is somewhat inarticulate. (Pierre=1; middle finger flasher=0.) The President, as a party politician, is expected by our law to do the same. He is not above the law and is not considered by our law to be more important than any of us – whether we are homless beggars or Kebbilists and tenderpreneurs. His OFFICE might be worthy of respect. The PERSON cannot demand special respect and cannot demand special legal protection.
I rather think our charming Prez will regret the actions taken against Maxwele, since middle fingers will likely begin rising like flowers in spring. When the public in any country starts to be seriously pissed off at their government, there is generally the development of symbolic acts and symbols acknowledging protest. The young are particularly courageous at utilizing them. An ‘erect’ middle finger shown to Zuma or his regime is actually quite a potent symbol of protest and points vigorously to various public held complaints about him. His thugs have just possibly given a valuable gift to those who are fed up with the ANC.
“His OFFICE might be worthy of respect. ”
If the finger was indeed shown, could it not be said that the insult was directed at the OFFICE and, not necessarily, the PERSON? And should such an offence at such an office not constitute grounds for charges against the perpetrator
@Pierre
“His OFFICE might be worthy of respect. ”
If the finger was indeed shown, could it not be said that the insult was directed at the OFFICE and, not necessarily, the PERSON? And should such an offence at such an office not constitute grounds for charges against the perpetrator
khosi says:
February 17, 2010 at 13:15 pm
No.
Prof,
The President is not above the law. But the real question is does he actually know that?
I do get the impression that the ANC (Zume et al) wants everybody to treat the president as if he is royalty: we should bow and not make eye contact while saying “baie baie jammer oom” every time he graces us with his presence.
What a joke South Africa has become. This together with the Deputy Speaker’s ruling yesterday just goes to show what the ANC thinks about free speech and respect that Zuma is “entitled” to.
Khosi, eitherway, disrespecting the “office” is not a crime either.
Here here, PdV,
The only house in a slave State in which a free man can abide with honor a prison?
you can only command respect if you show likewise.. the complete disregard & disrespect for women displayed by a man who is charged with the responsibility of leading a nation deserves nothing more than the proverbial UP YOURS gesture if in fact it was ?? Arrogant arse-hole
I am outraged by this incident. If I was in C.T. I would offer my services to Maxwele free of charge, and sue the pants off the Minister and relish every second of the process. Didn’t Mugabe have a similar problem at one stage where MDC supporters would regularly taunt his covoy with chopping motions and chants of “chinga” which apparently meant “change”? He then, I believe, passed a law making it illegal to do so! In Durban a VIP cop in Zuma’s convoy was recently acquitted after firing his machine gun at a motorist who had , apparently also made a gesture at his convoy!
it seems clear that his bodygurds have no self discipline or idea what constitutes a threat to the safety of the prez but were acting out of wounded pride.I would love to know if Zuma odered the arrest.
Only in SA……and Zim …..and Nazi Germany
wonder what would have happened had i chose to “waive” condoms at the passing cavalcade ??
Well Jeffman the DA swiped up that spotlight
With all his “fucking” work perhaps zuma could squeeze in a suit there against the young man? after all he sued Zapiro & the Guardian. I am sure he will have success, given that he has time for trivialities?
I do not know whether the allegations in the Sowetan report are true. That being said, I am inclined to believe that they are. And the reason for that is pretty simple: Zuma has already shown that he thinks the machinery of the criminal justice system exists to serve him. For one thing, his appointment of fashion victim Beki Cele was patently self-serving. And his appointment of Menzi Simelane as NDPP was arguably an even more obvious example thereof. In sum, the freshest allegations against our disgraceful commander-in-chief are in keeping with the person Tony and I know him to be: Al Capone in the office of the Presidency. That is, it hardly beggars belief to suppose that Zuma wants to use cops and prosecutors as swords and shields so that he (a) need not worry about facing meritorious proceedings and (b), so that he can have hopeless criminal cases pursued against his opponents and detractors.
ISHMAEL MALALE says:
February 17, 2010 at 11:50 am
According to Irish tradition, showing someone the middle finger means: “Up yours!”, actually saying: “Up your arse!” – “Take … and shove it up your arse!” – Or better, “I’ll take … and shove it up your arse!”
I agree with Prof de Vos at 12:24 above that this will never amount to impairment of a politician’s dignity to the extent that it justifies prosecution for crimen inuria.
Moreover, the actual origin of showing the middle finger can be traced back to the Middle ages, more sppecifically the time that, first William Wallace and, therefater Robert the Bruce, (”Braveheart”) were at war with the English. The practice of those days were, when archers were caught by opposing forces, their right-hand middle fingers (the finger with which a bow is strung) were cut off, so that, if they escaped and lived, they could not pose any real further threat (at least as archers). Then came the novel thing – when the English approached Wallace’s or Braveheart’s forces, the archers would from their higher vantage point first show their right middle fingers to the approaching English forces – used to scare the living daylights out of them – before releasing the first (almost invariably, deadly) volley of arrows on them.
Nevertheless, showing a middle finger to anyone in South Africa, regardless of what it means, will never amount to crimen iniuria, and, the fact that the victim is the President makes no difference to this.
Funny thing is, I do not think the President even saw this gesture, only a few of his violent (and trigger-happy blue-light-brigade members). The way blue-light-brigades are behaving nowadays clearly shows that we are fast moving towards becoming a police state once again, just like under apartheid – and that deserves a middle finger (or even an inverted “v” front-forefinger; or a “zap” sign – no details mentioned) whenever such behaviour is come across.
Prof de Vos – “However showing the middle finger to a politician or ridiculing a politician in some other way will almost never constitute unlawful behaviour because the prevailing norms in a constitutional democracy allows for robust debate and political contestation. To hold otherwise would be absurd.”
I see that teh DA has suspended Dianne Kohler-Barnard for five days and demanded that she appologises for saying “F..k you!” when leaving Parly yesterday. Isn’t this the same?
So, Maggs Naidu, what say you now? Your hero? More feet of clay?
Mugabe, Nujoma, Mbeki, Cele, Zuma…. Can anyone recall if Mandela ever arrogated motorcades to himself?
FW did – I know, I once gave him the finger as his motorcade Zumed past.
This blog sets the scene nicely for a discussion on motorcades, the rule of law, equality before the law, the old presumption that the state is not bound by its own legislation that appears to have survived into the era of constitutional supremacy?
Khosi, I liked your observations about a bag over the head. Go ask any of the mothers of the disappeared in Argentina what the last thing is eye-witnesses saw. It is merely a matter of time.
What would have happened if Chimani had run away? La Ley de Fuga? Bheki Cele’s shoot-to-kill orders?
Every day Zuma finds new ways to disgrace his country. Godless, shameless ANC!
I can hear the decree … all citizens will henceforth amputate their middle fingers.
Brett Nortje says:
February 17, 2010 at 14:31 pm
“So, Maggs Naidu, what say you now? Your hero? More feet of clay?”
Hey Brett, have you not noticed that I have reinvented myself, thanks to the kind advice, guidance, wisdom and support of many who comment here.
Just in case you missed it let me share with you.
- I am not supporting the ANC any more, I now support the DA – they are the true South African heros
- I have accepted the Lord as the true God so that I can join the Christian parties
- I have discarded my support for a gun free SA – each one, own one I say.
- I have adopted a new life’s slogan – One man, one wife.
- I reject the symbolism of middle finger and naked bums.
- I advocate for the end to sensitive topics like nationalisation
- Free speech must be limited.
How am I doing so far?
Well actually Maggs, they may well be the heros as hard as that is to swallow, and have you checked recently what percentages of their party is white and non white. Forget the guns, just get you attacked for owning one. If you want one, live on a farm as a farmer where you actually need it to survive, that and boer buls to protect you and your workers. Rejecting the middle finger, ahh, don’t do that. Its so potent.
Nationalization, well thats a no brainer… without business combined with justice one doesn’t have a decent country. And free speech being limited… surely you jest dear. Its the root of all freedom.
Maggs Naidu says:
February 17, 2010 at 15:45 pm
Come on Maggs, I’m sure you can do more!
Maggs, spare us the silly sarcasm, please.
I find it is always better to say what you mean and mean what you say.
That way, one avoids confusion.
Kewl, Maggs! Always happy to be of service. I’m glad you gave me a check-list of things I need to work on. Pleased to see you have not really emotionally committed to your new DA home – that should be easy.
We’re going to butt heads though about your less-than-principled stand on freedom of speech.
Sirjay, the Gun Free crowd work on the principle of ‘a lie repeated often enough’. The person who did that study you obliquely refer to admitted publicly that his data-sets did not justify the conclusions the gun prohibitionists drew from it.
If I were King, the state would subsidise a handgun for every woman.
See how much crime there would be then?
Brett: I’m not American born, but I agree with you. Can’t figure out why martial arts aren’t of importance here. Are the women wimps? My partner was attached in our home, an invasion, while I was leisurely having my morning coffee and paper at my favourite local hotel. I was so pleased to hear that she kneed him so correctly and successfully that he collapsed on the floor while she fled out the door.
Pity the police said it was her word against his. He hadn’t successfully raped her which he told her he was about to do. No evidence they said. Ahhh… SA.
“…As the compass of the ANC swings from south to north, from constitutionalism to totalitarianism, it is the totalitarian tendency that now rides high. The map of South Africa reads increasingly again as it did in the old days of the National Party, with a totalitarian-minded nationalist party in full cry, brutish, intolerant, accustomed to treating the state as its own instrument against enemies high and low. …” –Paul Trewhela
Among the many clouds hanging over Zuma’s head, the following unanswered questions by Trewhela, raise the ghosts of the dead; especially after the display of the Mob attitude by the Zuma ‘gangsters’ on Chumani Maxwele:
· Who poisoned Muziwakhe Ngwenya (aka Thami Zulu)?
· Why was he poisoned?
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=117498&sn=Detail
I am afraid. I’m very afraid!
To me, waiving any number of fingers at the presidential convoy is quite simply exercising one’s freedom of expression. I shall undertake to give the “Zuma” salute each time I see a politician behaving badly…ok…each time I see a politician… (I view lording it around in Blue light convoys as behaving badly).
This is continuing a fine tradition…I have done the same to Queen Elizabeth and her entourage (as I am a Republican, and I find their excesses disgusting), I did the same to Shrub, (he does not even qualify for a full Bush) as the “leader of the Free World”, as I (as a member of the Free World) did not vote for him…and I thought he was an idiot. Sure, I would not choose to exercise this freedom of expression in every country…only in the ones that are comfortable with their institution of democracy. So doing the same in Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Cuba or China is not being contemplated, at this stage. Which speaks volumes for the freedom of expression in those countries…
I once was able to do the same to Maggie Thatcher (giving away my age & country of origin), as an angry student, and she, and her bodyguards gave the same reaction as described by the author above… But I am sure they recognised it as my right to do so. That smile really smarted at the time!!
The presidency ought to quickly issue an apology to the student, then haul the over zealous police over the coals, and then make mileage out of the fact that people are able to express their emotions freely in this country…something that could not have been contemplated just a few decades ago. Until they do so I shall be exercising my freedom of expression, and my fingers.
Chris says:
February 17, 2010 at 17:36 pm
“Come on Maggs, I’m sure you can do more!”
Of course Chris. In fact I am going to suggest that for the next election campaign.
“Working together we can do more”.
Dumisani, remember the days when you had to appeal to the Emperor’s paranoid, apocalyptic world view if you wanted to bask in his magnificence? Like, start whisper-campaigns against Matthews Phosa and Tokyo Sexwale because people were beginning to speak of them as presidential material, when looking at the things happening in their provinces? Steve Tshwete was a good one at appealing to his boss’ paranoia. Remember the coups being planned against the ANC? LOL!Remember Mluleki George and the talk about forcing foreigners to divest their holdings in the security industry that helped start the run on the Rand? The mutterings that security officers outnumbered the SAPS, that they had more guns than the SAPS, “that they might do some funny things”? What a dumbass!
That clown Nathi Mthethwa picked up that thread this past weekend at Klaarwater.
Are his advisors just too stupid to know that this is ancient history, discredited, yesterday’s dumb idea? Do they just have short memories? Is the ANC spinning wheels, desperate for a plan to tackle crime, any plan, grasping at straws?
Or, is it the knee-jerk ANC reaction to become more and more paranoid and vicious when the Party is hurting? The old Camp Quattro thing?
sirjay jonson says:
February 17, 2010 at 15:59 pm
“Nationalization, well thats a no brainer… without business combined with justice one doesn’t have a decent country. And free speech being limited… surely you jest dear. Its the root of all freedom.”
I am just taking the cue from my new found political direction and endorsing calls to stop debates on this – it is ruining our country and prospects for economic growth by chasing away investors.
It’s just not enough for President Zuma to say in parliament that “nationalisation is not government policy”.
There are still forces out there advocating for it.
If the SAPS can use the apartheid legislation (205 or something) against eTv journalists and arrest an ANC member for pointing his finger in the air, surely President Zuma has enough unrepealed laws to outlaw any discussion on nationalisation.
@ Maggs Naidu
Why not stick to posting on The Times. ? It’s more suited to your ilk.
You seem to be one of those people who consider the comments section of blogs as an area to leave puerile and infantile comments thus demonstrating your lack of emotional IQ.
Maggs, are you alluding to the ANC election slogan: “Working together we can do more crime”?
Maggs, are you advocating Ju-Ju’s arrest?
John Roberts says:
February 17, 2010 at 20:14 pm
Hello John,
You ANC supporters are not going to stop me!
The tradition of attacking opposition is totally unacceptable.
Brett Nortje says:
February 17, 2010 at 20:18 pm
On a more serious note below are extracts from an article in the Natal Witness on Monday. If it is true the police behaviour is really getting out of hand.
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A LOCAL woman has been left traumatised after she was harassed by police officers, allegedly from the Mountain Rise Police Station, yesterday morning while on her way to church. They allegedly tried to push her off the road, swore at her and handcuffed her, after she overtook them at an intersection on Manning Avenue.
Explaining what happened, a sobbing Taylor said she stopped behind a white car at the Manning Avenue intersection, and when the robot changed to green and the car in front of her did not move, she decided to go around it.
Taylor said she did not realise that the car was a police vehicle, as it was unmarked and the two men inside it were dressed in plain clothes. She was afraid she was being hijacked.
She said that when she got to her mother-in-law’s house, two “big” men jumped out of the car and approached her aggressively. She feared they were criminals.
They produced handcuffs and placed her under arrest for violating a traffic light, handcuffing her in front of her three-year-old child, who was screaming in fright in the car. The cuffs left red marks on her arms. They later released her without charge.
Police spokesman Vincent Mdunge said the police are not at fault. He said it seems Taylor had broken the law and they were obliged to perform their duty.
“The fact they were not wearing police uniform does not matter. She broke the law, and they were right to arrest her.” Mdunge had not called the officers to verify the incident, and was made aware that Taylor was released after the incident.
I agree with you prof , but I think this guy should get a few lashes. This is disrespectful. I grew up in the rural Kwazula Natal. When we grew up there, we were taught to respect our elders , not to mention our leaders.
Really, it is in instances like this where we need to lift or piece “the human rights veil” and deal with the person behind it, in our case, Maxwele.
He is a disgrace , not only to himself , but also to his community. It says a lot about his upbringing.
… as the penguins would say “smile and wave, boys, smile and wave”
Ditto srories on Carte Blanche, Maggs!
Brett Nortje says:
February 18, 2010 at 5:21 am
“Police commissioner Bheki Cele has recommended the formation of a committee consisting of police communication officials to respond to writers of letters to the newspapers complaining about the service provided by the police.”
http://news.za.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=151975327
I have not seen any of that yet.
Have you?
” I grew up in the rural Kwazula Natal. When we grew up there, we were taught to respect our elders , not to mention our leaders.” anon
Dear Anon,
has it ever occurred to you that this may be the reason for lack of progress in rural KZN?
Anyway, maybe it is time to re-read a certain novella before it becomes banned or censored.
“All the other male pigs on the farm were porkers. The best known among them was a small fat pig named Squealer, with very round cheeks, twinkling eyes, nimble movements, and a shrill voice. He was a brilliant talker”
“Frightened though they were, some of the animals might possibly have protested, but at this moment the sheep set up their usual bleating of “Four legs good, two legs bad,” which went on for several minutes and put an end to the discussion. ”
Any guesses? Oh, and time to polish up that Grosser Mercedes.
Thank you for the heads-up, Maggs!
I have posted it to our Forums. I do not believe in the tooth-fairy either.
Spin, is what Bokaba intends.
For the moment, I would be happy if Nathi Mthethwa simply answers my question whether he will resign if the Courts reject his advisors’ thumb-suck gun compensation guidelines.
He was ill-advised staking his credibility on that failed attempted defence when the Western Cape High Court would not give it the time of day.
He – and those spokespersons – had a lot to say about Gun Owners of South Africa and me, personally, two weeks ago. Now he has run for cover.
There is no resolution to the Billion-Rand black hole Firearms Control Act with ANC/Ministerial ‘face’ intact. Forget it. We will not stand for it.
For a start, we want a forensic audit of the implementation of the unimplementable FCA, to see how much has been wasted and what can be salvaged. Terrence Nombembe cannot dodge the bullet forever, in a manner of speaking!
Brett Nortje says:
February 18, 2010 at 6:11 am
“For the moment, I would be happy if Nathi Mthethwa simply answers my question whether he will resign if the Courts reject his advisors’ thumb-suck gun compensation guidelines.”
I cannot see that as a basis for a Minister’s resignation.
We expect our Ministers to put their best foot forward, based on a whole range of information, sometimes getting it wrong (sometimes deliberately, more often by genuine desire to do the right thing).
Our courts are the checks and balances – which in any event, like governance, is not an exact science.
Officially, we are now finally sliding to yet another African banana republic. I never, never, never thought that I would say that.
But seeing that our leaders are starting to behave as a send-up of walking African clichés, I might as well start spouting forth clichés as well.
Ha ha ha…we couldn’t have made this up, even if we wanted to.
prozak says:
February 18, 2010 at 5:43 am
Some animals are more equal than others.
@anonymous
February 17, 2010 at 23:48 pm
Boy you sure are a joke. Backward comes to mind.
Are you suggesting that everyone with bad manners now be criminalised or locked up. His manners are not the issue. The manners of our servants (Zuma and police) is what matters. Perhaps he had a bad upbringing because his parents died of preventable AIDS when your elders refused to give citizens ARV’s. And you think they deserve respect based purely on age ? Backward.
What’s next ? Anything you think can be held against you and used in a court of law ? Your post shows lack of respect for citizens. Take the blinkers off mate.
“Ka sepedi bare ngwana a phosha dira ga a bolawe”. The police must have just demeed the chap as having left his faculties in his tutorials and left him stupidly flashing his arrogant middle finger alone.
I personally regard such act as insulting. I need Prof to profer case law supporting his proposition that the middle finger approach is not unlawful and actionable. Why do we seem to think the president was aware of this occurence and had sanctioned the police brutality.
I reiterate, Maxwele must be more respectful next time. He must reflect about the derogatory connotation attributed to his body language. I suggest his action means “fuck you”. Unfortunately it was himself who was terribly fucked.
Anounymose thank you for elucidating the origin and evolution of the act of middle finger. In the rural communities such an act may earn you your life. The rural communities are very respectful and sensative to any act which deliberately challenges their sense of dignity.
Many person died in our roads precisely for doing that. We must be careful not to encourage acts which lead to violent acts. I have stated that the police used brute force and crossed the bar of legality of their actions. I personally do not agree with the conduct of Maxwele.
Virginia how am I countenacing police arrogance? The ANC does not encourage infridgement of our noble intrument, the Constitution. We fought for it, with blood, our dignity and lives. We will defend it at all cost. It is an instrument we must not make a caricuture thereof as it seems the case with the gushing vitriol in the arguments bites of some contributors in the blog.
The reason I partake here is that a a pick us good points from the naked hatred of Zuma by some. There is a lot of sifting that one has to undertake though!
I supppose Zuma was not even aware or involved. It is very rare that the president calvacade stops to attend to individuals on the road. The vehicle which transports the president will certaintly not stop for security reasons. It might have been one of the few vehicles that are part of the motorgate. I suggest Zuma must try a “byciclegate” with only noiseless blue lights with national flag hoisted very high in the sky. This will probably amuse Maxwele and will instead colllapse from laughter rather than volleys of blows from ego wrecked brutal bodyguards.
The UCT jogger arrested for “gesturing” at President Jacob Zuma’s blue-light convoy as it passed by should consider himself lucky.
Had he done it to President Mugabe’s convoy in Zimbabwe he would have been thrown in jail and maybe never seen again. In South Africa there is still no need to fling yourself off the road into the dirt and grovel obeisance. Well, not yet, anyway.
Instead Chumani Maxwele was merely bundled into a police car, had a black bag thrown over his head, was taken to two successive police stations, laughed at by police station staff, thrown into a cell for several hours, interrogated about his political affiliations and had his home invaded by officials who rifled through his belongings.
In other words, a democratic state’s typical response to a raised middle finger.
At least Maxwele was a paid-up member of the ANC. I hate to think what might have happened to him had he been a DA, Cope or IFP supporter.
Actually he was very foolish. I personally am reluctant to raise a middle finger to any of my fellow motorists, let alone to the president and his heavies. You never know when someone may pull out a pistol or even a hockey stick to demonstrate their annoyance. Ordinary ous don’t have the police’s understanding of basic human rights.
The incident has shown how careful we must all be when presidential convoys drive past. Watch your gestures like a hawk. Don’t even stick up your finger to see if it’s raining. The VIP police are ever-vigilant to see which finger is being raised, aware that one of their chief functions is to protect the president from the wrong finger.
Now for the good news. There are still things you are allowed to do when the president’s blue-light brigade roars past you, all sirens going. You can wave enthusiastic greetings, you can doff your forelock, you can hold up both hands in surrender, you can give a Hitler salute (the Fuhrer never complained), or you can simply bow, scrape and otherwise demonstrate your abject respect.
Respect is what opposition parliamentarians ought to show more of, too. They certainly should not have the right to accuse the government of leading the country into lawlessness, even if that is what it is doing. No wonder the new Deputy Speaker, Nomaindia Mfeketo, ordered Cope MP Mluleki George to withdraw the remark.
Next he’ll be saying the government doesn’t know how to run the country properly. You never know when some ignorant voter might believe him.
George’s big mistake is that he thought opposition MPs had the right to criticise the president and the government. He even thought they enjoyed something called parliamentary privilege. Ms Mfeketo, who may never have heard of it, soon put him in his place on that score.
As you probably know by now, he refused to say the government wasn’t leading the country into lawlessess, and was ordered out, accompanied by DA and Cope members in solidarity.
My suggestion to the government is that it pass a law that makes marching out of Parliament in protest against a Speaker’s, or Deputy Speaker’s, ruling, a lawless act on a par with raising one’s middle finger to a presidential motorcade, or in any other way expressing oneself freely.
That would demonstrate to the world the government’s zero tolerance of lawlessness
by John Scott
It’s like we went to sleep and woke up in Zimbabwe. Granted it seems to have taken 16 years to get here. Scratch that, I’ll discount five for Mandela. The rot only really set in when the big little man with the pipe took over. Up until then it was all rainbow nation building and just one dodgy arms deal. But while we’ve been sleeping, comatose for 11 years, drunk on our new found freedom to consume, the Zanu-fication of the ANC was underway and gathering steam. What I’m referring to is the unfettered arrogance and licentious entitlement of the current crop of ruling party politicians.
And it’s only getting worse, as this week has demonstrated. It all started with a harmless little jog, this dude, Chumani Maxwele a 25 year old student at UCT, and card carrying ANC member, is jogging on De Waal Drive when a whole series of speeding, black 4×4s, with sirens blaring and blue lights flashing, zooms passed him, probably giving him a huge skrik. Like any sane, proud young lion he makes a fist save for his middle finger which extends into the air in meaningful defiance. He flips the cavalcade the bird and probably mutters “fuck you” to himself and carries on jogging. An entirely normal, oft repeated urban response to obnoxious roadhogs. A car in the cavalcade stops, VIP security goons with machine guns jump out, arrest and interrogate him and hold him for 24 hours. You can read the full report in the Sowetan here and the follow up here.
The VIP police seem particularly oblivious to the fact, that as a citizen of South Africa, he has the inalienable constitutional right to express himself freely. His crime, according to the article, “insulting the president”. Despite the fact that he had no idea which fat cat politico was travelling in the blue light convoy. JZ seems awfully touchy these days. But that’s not all, so affronted were the powers at this symbol of disrespect to our supreme leader, the police apparently went on to raid his house and sent “intelligence officers” to interrogate him the next day. A little overkill for just giving someone the finger, ne?
When the rest of all the sane people in the country woke up expecting the government to distance themselves from the actions of a few overzealous and obviously misguided cops, the spokesperson for the ministry of police Zweli Mnisi released this statement.
“No person is permitted to use foul language and swear at another individual, especially as such conduct may lead to promoting hate conduct in the Republic.”
To this, we at Mahala say woza Freedom of Expression Institute and the Constitutional Court! Viva our constitutional rights viva! Because, this my friends is worth fighting for. If there’s one thing we need to protect and defend, it’s the right of young people to say “fuck you”. To protest. To borrow a cliche from Obama, “to speak truth to power”. This cuts to the very core of what pushes our species, and our societies forward. The rebellious voice of the disgruntled youth, the average person in the street who stands up for what they believe in and like the Dude in The Big Lebowski says, “this aggression will just not stand man”. And if we lose this battle, I’m gonna put it all on the line right now, South Africa will not be a country worth living in.
Scarier yet, this is not an isolated incident. In this very same week all the Opposition parties staged a walk-out of Parliament over Mluleki George’s (and their collective) right to say that the president or cabinet couldn’t lead the country in moral behaviour. On their way out another leading opposition politician said, “fuck you”. And since then the debate has reached levels of hysteria. Is it not common for political rivals to sling insults at one another? Since when did the ANC become so delicate and proper. This is not my robust revolutionary movement. Apparently you can’t say the F-word in Parliament, it brings down the decorum of the place, according to the law. But surely you can say it with a gesture on the street, while you’re out jogging and a BMW X5, sirens wailing, rides up your arse and gives you the fright of your life, as it zooms around a corner at 160 kms per hour.
And then in another exercise of radical paranoid political oversensitivity, as if all this pomposity, entitlement and hubris wasn’t enough, over in Durban three publicly commissioned statues of elephants, I kid you not, elephants, have become embroiled in controversy and their production has been suspended (despite being officially commissioned and paid for by the city). The offence, it would seem, is that elephants are associated, in the minds of certain insecure and power-drunk officials in the Ethikwini city council, with the symbol of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Read all about it here.
Yoh! And this is the part where I remind you that just North of the Limpopo, several normal Zimbabweans have been arrested of late for insulting his excellency Robert Gabriel Mugabe. Most famously, Douglas Mwonzora, an MDC parliamentarian and co-chairman of the key parliamentary constitutional commission, who allegedly told MDC supporters that the 85-year-old Mugabe was a goblin. No surprises there. Zimbabwe is a globally reviled military dictatorship masquerading as a government of national unity. South Africa, on the other hand, is a democratic republic ruled by the world’s most hallowed and progressive constitution, about to stage the world’s most prestigious sporting event.
So what happened to the glorious, principled revolution spearheaded by giants like Tambo, Sisulu, Biko, Hani and Mandela? Can you imagine any of those guys behaving like this? Since when did Africa’s, “tried and tested revolutionary movement” become so sensitive to a bit of criticism… and such a flippen bully.
from Mahala Blog
Chumani Maxwele a student from UCT was arrested, his house searched and then interrogated about his political affiliations after purportedly making an obscene gesture at President Jacob Zuma’s convoy of vehicles while out jogging.
According to the Sowetan Maxwele was arrested for “waving on” Zuma’s convoy when he was jogging on De Waal Drive, Cape Town, on Wednesday. A black BMW pulled up and three men jumped out, allegedly pointing guns at him. He was then pushed into a car. According to an official spokesman the outrage involved waving at President Jacob Zuma’s convoy, swearing at the president and resisting arrest.
I don’t believe that South Africans appreciate the seriousness of these charges which are best described by a twentieth century philosopher who, when facing a decision from a “judge” cried out : “You cannot be serious! The ball was out. Are you blind?”
Correct me if I’m wrong but the President has been having a rough time of it lately following the love-child incident and a less than inspiring State of the Nation address. Yesterday Cope and the Democratic Alliance walked out of Parliament after a dodgy call from the Speaker of Parliament.
So the last thing his image needs right now is the Gestapo-style tactics employed by his less than secret service.
If as Police Ministry spokesperson Zweli Mnisi says Maxwele did point his middle finger at the president and made a gesture which was synonymous with swearing and showing disrespect then the best, and perhaps only, thing to have done was to make out like you never saw it and carry on driving.
That way nobody would ever know that there are people on the ground who are so incensed by the President that they actually feel compelled to show him the middle finger.
The arrest and subsequent conduct of the police creates an incident which is not only unnecessary but will beg the question of what kind of administration is running the country where police are slow to prevent an Eersterust boy from being shot at a packed sports event for children – 5 days after a first attempt had been made – but are brutally efficient in pouncing on a jogger who may have shown the middle finger?
Did the police for example call in the NIA when an attempt to murder Abdul Abrahams was first made? Did they send storm troopers into the area trying to track down these assassins?
Yet when some jogger who could never have even known he was going to bump into the Zuma convoy gets irritated by all the noise we suddenly have Night of the Long Knives?
Mind you there was one act of kindness shown to the poor jogger.
When the three SS men grabbed Chumani and pulled into him one of the cars in the convoy they apparently put a brown paper bag over his head.
With Zuma’s current popularity he must have been mightily relieved that nobody could recognise him as part of the convoy.
Our recommendation is that Zuma’s security add one more course to their training program. It’s one used by many police forces around the world and may prove vital to their wellbeing. It’s called Getalife 101 and I’m sure it will prove beneficial to them the next time one of those irritating convoys encounters joggers along their route.
by Michael Trapido from Richmark Sentinel
ISHMAEL MALALE, with respect, whether the alleged gesture was insulting or not is utterly irrelevant. The LEGAL question is whether it is unlawful to make a rude gesture at anyone. My answer is no. Your contention that I should provide case law turns things on its head. An important tenet of the Rule of law is that somebody can only be convicted of a crime that was clearly a crime at the time of his or her actions. It is therefore YOU who have to produce case law that gesturing to someone is unlawful. I have not find any case law to that effect suggesting thus that it is not unlawful and hence not a crime. In the absence of clear case law that such action is unlawful, there is no crime and hence to possibility of conviction. In South Africa it is not a crime merely to be rude to someone else – whether that person is the President or anyone else. If you think it should be a crime you can approach Parliament to change the law. If that law singled out the President and prohbits being rude to him or her alone, it will not pass constitutional muster. If it applies to all people, it would create a storm and will be unenforcable.
ISHMAEL MALALE says:
February 18, 2010 at 7:52 am
“I reiterate, Maxwele must be more respectful next time.”
Why?
Who decides what “respectful” is?
Middle finger, naked bums, spitting, sneering, shouting, harsh or vulgar language – where exactly is the line?
We cannot return, even in the slightest, to the 80s when any police person could arrest any civilian for any reason or even no reason.
“I supppose Zuma was not even aware or involved” – that is probably accurate. On the flip side there is no evidence that Maxwele knew that it was President Zuma’s cavalcade.
The SAPS cannot be equated to angry village elders or road ragers – they are obliged to act within the law and the standard against which the SAPS officers are held is far higher than other citizens.
There are increasing reports of police acting unjustifiably against harmless and defenceless civilians whom they ought to be protecting – that needs to end.
Let’s start a movement in support of our constitution called the Civil Rudeness campaign, based on Ghandi’s idea of Civil Disobedience. Citizens will regularly line the president’s route to and from parliament and show his cavalcade the finger as they drive past. It will blossom into a national salute to any politician screaming past with his entourage as a civil assertion of our inalienable right to express ourselves freely.
Love it Leopold, I’d join.
Ishmael,
Respect is earned. Your president should earn it, especially in light of what has been in the news about his behaviour lately.
Mafia and scare tactics from his gangsters certainly don’t help in this regard.
I shudder to think what will happen should the President go ahead with his idea of street-committees to combat crime (kangaroo courts, in my view) where according to him people should be locked up with no questions asked (his idea of their rights to remain silent).
Your president is losing whatever tiny shred of respect he may have left. Unfortunately he is dragging us down with him.
A big up yours to the Prez and the bully boy cops who kidnapped Mr Maxwele _!_.
Maggs, you do not think it is a problem if a Minister stakes his reputation on discredited information and continues passing it off as fact?
Most of us call that lying!
Especially as the legacy of AIDS-denialism confronts us continuously.
Glad to see that the evolution on this blog has been enthused from the simpsons to something more significant “Animal farmers” Since we are reinventing & redefining
I propose the following:
We stop this “naked hatred of Zuma by some” , Respect our elders,Learn some value ourselves , Disarm fast, Unlearn the culture of deliberation, reflection & expression, Become a more than value laden society embellishing the mores of ubuntu ! Till jesus comes back!!Ayoba yobayo>>
note to self: was Julius Dilemma effectively sidelined with a one-liner??>>
Ayoba yobayo>>
Brett Nortje says:
February 18, 2010 at 10:49 am
If a minister makes an error of judgment in the course of the work before her or him, it should be corrected.
We have many checks and balances – parliament, the courts, general elections.
Public officials being held personally liable for actions that arise in the course of their work is a complex subject.
So, Maggs, in your revered estimation, when should a Minister fall on his sword?
No wonder this country suffers from a pandemic of leaders with poor judgement!
Brett Nortje says:
February 18, 2010 at 11:25 am
“when should a Minister fall on his sword?”
It depends on context.
But since you are pro gun and I am anti guns, let’s use another example.
Supposing it is established that our Minister of Finance, whom most South Africans approve of, used incorrect population estimates in determining the budget. Let’s assume that the figures released by the Statistician General were inaccurate because of some oversight like not updating one or other parameters in the statistical model.
If such and error is discovered, should the Minister of Finance “fall on his sword”?
Maggs, do you think Max should have been made to fall on his sword already?
It worries me that there are so many opinions out there already, that so much of the ‘evidence’ against him seems to have been controverted already, but I do, if:
o There have been two complaints against him already. IDNGAF if it was 2 or 4 – it shows extremely poor judgement to go ahead and appoint someone like that because of his colour. It might show a pattern of behaviour.
o He is in a relationship in which he has power (not least, public) over the other person
o He is much older and she more vulnerable
Brett Nortje says:
February 18, 2010 at 11:40 am
“do you think Max should have been made to fall on his sword already?”
I have no issue about Max or anyone else “philandering” – I don’t think that is reason enough to “fall on his sword”.
I have an issue with double (or at least inconsistent) standards.
Then Finance Minister Manuel ended up marrying his one time DG (my gut tells me that the relationship blossomed while they worked together).
Bill Clinton had “power” over his then intern (”that woman”).
Who should take responsibility? If this is the real-time ANC government we are speaking of – no-one will.
If your minister is purely hypothetical you find the negligent person and fire his ass and his boss offers his resignation because
a) One can delegate authority, never responsibility and
b) The head of Department should have made sure double checks are in place.
Your hypothesis is a straw man, though.
Your Minister has not taken discredited thumbsuck reasons for not complying with legislation (part of a narrative a Deputy-Judge President has described as “inconsistent with the Constitution and unlawful”) revived it and passed it off as fact.
Great idea Leopold,I’m in.
Brett, this whole debate about Max “falling on his sword” proves a point you have been making for a long time now.
Disebowelment is a gory, painful death.
If each public functionary had a gun, the whole process would be more efficient.
Many a true word is spoken in jest, Dworky!
Compare countries with high gun ownership rates with countries with low gun ownership rates against any index you like.
Most obviously, the rule of law. Where a lot of citizens are armed, everyone respects and upholds the rule of law. That is ironclad tradition. That is the biggest reason the ANC is so paranoid about armed citizens.
Institutional legitimacy – both government and citizens attach a high value to democratic institutions where there is a high rate of gun ownership. Elections take place regularly, everyone plays by the rules, everyone respects the outcome of elections. Would you hazard a guess about the rates of gun ownership in say, Norway and Kenya, Switzerland and Zimbabwe?
Social development, economic development, one can go on and on. There are a whole host of examples.
One can summarise that governments in poor-ass countries play fast and loose with the idea of the rule of law and constitutionalism and enrich themselves as fast as they can while appointing Travelgate fraudsters to chair Parliamentary Portfolio Committees and squeal like stuck pigs at the suggestion that they ought to take some responsibility and resign. And, most of all, they crap themselves at the thought of citizens with guns and are delirious with joy when useful-idiot-liberal-gun-prohibitionists lobby them with gun-ban schemes.
You concur, Maggs?
Blind loyalty is evidently an equal opportunities virus
[...] suspect that UCT student Chumani Maxwele might disagree, following the unlawful harassment and intimidation he was subjected to on the evening of February 10, when Jacob Zuma’s security detail thought [...]
What, now insulting Jacob Zuma is lèse majesté? God help Jonathan Shapiro (Zapiro)….
What’s next? The pres’ picture compulsorily present in every building as is common elsewhere in Africa?
Time to roll out the (metaphorical) guillotine……
Chumani, please go find yourself a very good lawyer (I reckon any number of my colleagues would be happy to run this on a “no-win no pay basis”). You’re about to make a bit of money and a very, very important point to a bunch of people who take themselves far too seriously. It’s about time politicians in this country started to get the message that they are the servants of the people & democracy & not the other way around.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
February 18, 2010 at 12:11 pm
“If each public functionary had a gun, the whole process would be more efficient.”
That would end whistle blowing at least, a neat solution to a complex problem.
Prof. I must appreciate that your stance or legal opinion, not a legal judgment, is that a raised middle finger directed at any person, including the President of USA or Queen of England is somewhat inarticulate physical expression without any legal consequences.
It is a view that I will accept but unconvinced thereby. Disagreement or diversity of thought is an instrument of open democratic polemics. I propose that the act (middle finger) connotes “fuck you” and is insultive. It is my personal viewpoint not a solid statement of law. I hope you are not attributing to yourself, unconciously, the status of an exclusive articular of law on untilled legal spaces by the judiciary.
I needed to learn from your professorial wisdom about the jurisprudential basis of your strongly held opinion. You frankly never traversed caselaw supporting your argument bite. I also have not come across any caselaw for my stance. These are mere legal arguments by lawyers, students and interested laypersons. You therefore cannot profess your views as absolute truth on this question. Neither can I! It is a discourse. Interfertalisation of ideas.
The kernel of your argument bite seems to be that the gesture is meaningless and thus not unlawful. I merely suggest the opposite. I wonder if MAxwele was insulting the President or the police in this instance. Who has the factual authority suggesting that the president was aware of this and sanctioned the act.
The allegation goes that three police persons stopped in a black BMW. It is not suggested that the entire convoy of six vehicles stopped or the President phoned the police in the BMW in question and instructed an arrest.
The protocol of bodyquards is that they only take instructions from their commanders not the persons they protect. The President does not have the authority to instruct the bodyquards as to how to react during their daily police tasks.
This matter has been raised for debate in the National Assembly by a DA parliamentarian for debate in the next seating. I will relish the arguments. Unlawful and malicious arrest and detention is condemned by all of us. However insultive gestures are not promoted in our democracy. Your argument will carry the day in the event the gesture is understood to be inarticulate. The heavens will not crumble on earth to the demise of intellectual intercourse.
This debate has nothing to do with simplistic suggestions of blind loyalty to President Zuma. Some of us are loyal to the ANC and our sacrosanct Constitution which was almost entirely a product of the political and social struggles of the ANC.
The ANC respects and abides by the same supreme Constitution. We as members of the ANC are equally entitled to partake in public dialogue without imputations of parochial political loyalty to our leaders. I have repeatedly stated that I had learnt from creative contributions of some bloggers, including you, Sir. You have not been correct or wise in all of your articulations. You err as all do.
Mr. Roberts, Parliamentarians cannot reflect on the integrity of fellow members without a substantive motion advanced to Parliament. The rulings of the Presiding Officer cannot be contested in the manner that Mr Mluleki did. He had to advance his reservation fo the Rules Committe for the review of the ruling. As to the protest of walking out; it is a disservice to the electorate that voted DA and COPE to represent their interests and aspirations in Parliament. I suppose it reflects badly on the quality of the parliamentarians that these two formations had sent to this august institution.
The decorum and ettiquette of Parliament has been dented by the childish walkout. They vowed never to return yet the following day they had occupied the lonely oppositional benches. I expected unremitting polemics around the rules not quitting.
ISHMAEL MALALE, thanks for your considered response. I agree with you, of course, that showing the middle finger is insulting. But that is not the legal question. Not all insults are considered criminal. It is only criminal when the court decides that the insult is so serious that it should become unlawful. It can only be unlawful if according the legal convictions of the community (now informed by the Constitution – especially the guarantee of freedom of speech0 considers it unlawful. I would put quite a bit of money on a bet that no court will consider this action unlawful. To find otherwise would be to fundamentally limit our democratic right to express our political opinions (no matter how inarticulate these might be expressed). That would fundamentally limit our democratic right to express and form opinions about political leaders as we wish.
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs295.ash1/22237_483838570206_587640206_10878423_3893367_n.jpg
It is the ANC that has made it so simple for Maxwele, you and I to raise the middle finger. I will be the first one to protect that right if in the end the courts so finds. I have seen your picture. Since 1994 indeed the police state perished. It will never resurface. We are in a constitutional democracy.
Thank you for a wonderful exchange. The traffic has subsided one can hit the road!
@ISHMAEL MALALE,
Was the Presiding Officer correct in issuing the ruling in the first place? I would imagine that the officer does not have incontestable powers and the officer cannot use his/her position to advance partisan positions.
For my part, I saw nothing offensive to parliament about what MP George said. It may have been offensive to the ANC but the deputy Speaker should have been able to distinguish between the two (ANC and Parly). I did, however, find MP Mda and MP Kohler Barnard, completely and shamefully out of order.
The walk out of MP’s and the story of Maxwele, is an worrying illustration that the ANC leadership is finding itself having to fight trench battles, which the leadership has a high risk of loosing in the court of public opinion. Leadership needs to relax and do like Mbeki does. And that is to ignore inconsequential ramblings of inconsequential beings.
“Mthethwa wants probe into student arrest
Feb 18, 2010 5:40 PM | By Sapa
Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa has asked the ICD to investigate the arrest of the Cape Town student who “swore” at President Jacob Zuma, a spokesman said.”
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article315022.ece
Khosi, the parliament has adopted rules on how to conduct its business. I cannot call Goerge by his first name as I just did now. I am obliged to call him Honourable G. Mluleki. I cannot say fuck you to any fellow member. I cannot protest the ruling of a Presiding Officer in the house. The PO has absolute authority for the running of the proceedings. There are channels and plartforms for engaging and reviewing the ruling of the PO.
You might be right that the ruling might have been oversensative particularly if there was not a direct personal reflection on the President. I will refrain to express my view on the correctness or otherwise of the ruling.
I think we need to exude maturity and profound discipline in the house. We must create a platform for robust engagement. I am not used to hawling, heckling, insulting. I enjoy the listen to and understand any viewpoint in the house. We have a duty to the electorate to behave ourselves; ANC cadres and the opposition.
It exasperates me to observe unpalatable jeering of a member simply because it is an ANC or opposition MP. We must listen to one another, engage, learn from one another for the good of our beloved country.
If we were a constitutional democracy, the police would not have been allowed to act like this. I’m afraid the ANC took us back to being a police state.
I like Leopold’s suggestion, but would like to propose a complementary action, which would of course be available to far fewer people. Everytime anyone comes near enough to the Prez they should immediately fall before him on their knees, grovel and kiss his shoes. Alternatively, if he remains out of reach, they could do so to one of his bodyguards.
Jogger: Sorry President Zuma:
http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/News/1059/b9f4fe3bf48446acaf9ceafeb267405d/18-02-2010-11-16/Jogger_Sorry_President_Zuma
[At least the State machinery was put to good use - putting the ordinary man in his place and making sure that he knew it.]
Here’s where the police ought to be intervening, blue-lights, handcuffs, big guns, the whole works!
“Some of the victims, who fell pregnant as a result of the rapes, were expelled while their abusers kept their jobs at the school.
“Four of the alleged abusers are teachers, three are security guards and one a cook. Another teacher resigned in December after reportedly admitting to sexual misconduct.
“The rapes occurred when pupils and teachers were meant to attend morning assembly. The guards are accused of going to the girls’ dormitories.
“It is claimed the teachers under suspicion would bunk morning assembly and instead send pupils SMSes instructing them to report to class – where they were then abused.”
What the heck is this – since when is it the role of the Education departnemt to investigate child rape?????
“Education spokesperson Charles Phahlane had earlier said the department had issued letters to the alleged perpetrators to explain their versions of events “before the possible drawing up of a charge sheet”.
“Phahlane said the department was investigating ‘all allegations’, including that of the principal protecting the alleged perpetrators.”
http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1115100
This is disgraceful.
All of us should hang our heads in shame.
http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1115547
“Minister also raped at school of shame – ‘I fell pregnant and was expelled’”
“Deputy Minister of Public Works Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu was a pupil at the Filadelfia Secondary School for the visually impaired, hearing impaired and physically challenged pupils in Soshanguve, north of Pretoria.”
“I cannot believe it is still happening,” the minister said.
“I always wanted to tell my story. I was raped in 1989 while in Grade 8 and when I reported it to the school authorities and the then department of education and training, I was not taken seriously.”
“The inquiry into her case only took two days. ‘One afternoon, two days before my final exam, I was called to the office and told to leave.’
“She was furious because the school had failed her and allowed her alleged abuser to continue working at the school.
“The man, who is known to Sowetan, currently occupies a senior position at the Department of Basic Education.”
Snowman says:
February 18, 2010 at 22:55 pm
A statement to say he is sorry, made after his unlawful arrest, after police unlawfully pointed firearms at him (a crime in terms of the law, also by policemen), put a bag over his head (that is assault) and during his illegal detention. And to add insult to injury, police claim that they drove past the poor jogger at high speed, sirens blasting, windows closed, and they could actually hear every word he was saying! Every sergeant major in the army must dream of having a voice like that! In case of a trail I expect the judge will have to say: “That is so improbable, it can’t be reasonably possibly true.”
There is of course section 28 of the Criminal Procedure Act, making it a crime for a policeman to conduct an unlawful search. Nowhere did they say if the police had a warrant to search Maxwele’s house.
the most disturbing aspect is that the police goons working in “VIP” protection are obviously issued with black hoods to pull over people’s faces.
I wonder if the also have “The idiot’s guide to water boarding” in the boot.
“they had come to a time when no one dared speak his mind, when fierce, growling dogs roamed everywhere”
You people are starting to peeve me. When is someone going to connect the dots? This is my argument with Sne about the dumbing down of the NPA.
If the NPA was capable of slam-dunking easy cases – like the one they lost in KZN – the blue-light bullies would not have dared terrorise Chumani.
Anyone heard of Makwanyane?
Brett Nortje says:
February 19, 2010 at 14:44 pm
“You people are starting to peeve me.”
Oops.
Careful people. Brett has serious firepower!
I think raping handicapped children – who are totally at his mercy, totally dependent – is just about the lowest thing one can think of.
How is it relevant to the topic, though?
I see Maxwele is going ahead with his civil action against the police. He also claims that the Minister lied when he said Maxwele has previous convictions. If that is true, the embarresment for the Minister will be even greater. But I don’t think the case will ever see the inside of a courtroom.