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	<title>Comments on: SAPS shows how not to implement &#8220;affirmative action&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: Gwebecimele</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-25861</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwebecimele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-25861</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t wait for SMART (Social amaovement Against Racial Tendencies) &amp; BMF to take up similar cases and also bring relief to our depressed Professionals rather than cherry picking on Gama, Maroga and others. 

Way to go Solidarity!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=5369524&amp;fSectionId=552&amp;fSetId=662</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t wait for SMART (Social amaovement Against Racial Tendencies) &amp; BMF to take up similar cases and also bring relief to our depressed Professionals rather than cherry picking on Gama, Maroga and others. </p>
<p>Way to go Solidarity!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=5369524&#038;fSectionId=552&#038;fSetId=662" rel="nofollow">http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=5369524&#038;fSectionId=552&#038;fSetId=662</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alley Cat</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17221</link>
		<dc:creator>Alley Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17221</guid>
		<description>This is the same insitution who banned/froze promotions among volunteeer Police Reservists several years ago for a few years (who gave their time for free) in favour of affirmative action candidates, even if there were no affirmative candidates who had bothered volunteering in that particular community.
And they wonder why I and many others resigned as police reservists never to return...?
Good luck to these racists...they deserve all the ridicule they get....! 
You have to be clever to be so short-sighted...!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the same insitution who banned/froze promotions among volunteeer Police Reservists several years ago for a few years (who gave their time for free) in favour of affirmative action candidates, even if there were no affirmative candidates who had bothered volunteering in that particular community.<br />
And they wonder why I and many others resigned as police reservists never to return&#8230;?<br />
Good luck to these racists&#8230;they deserve all the ridicule they get&#8230;.!<br />
You have to be clever to be so short-sighted&#8230;!</p>
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		<title>By: AliBama</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17108</link>
		<dc:creator>AliBama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17108</guid>
		<description>Of course some institutions, like the police, MUST be national and centrally controlled; and suffer the resultant effects.
Even the UK has reported &#039;over time scams&#039; in the cops.
But Africa is disasterously incompetent at centally controlled institutions, like police.
OTOH the free-market works marvelously in Africa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course some institutions, like the police, MUST be national and centrally controlled; and suffer the resultant effects.<br />
Even the UK has reported &#8216;over time scams&#8217; in the cops.<br />
But Africa is disasterously incompetent at centally controlled institutions, like police.<br />
OTOH the free-market works marvelously in Africa.</p>
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		<title>By: AliBama</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17105</link>
		<dc:creator>AliBama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17105</guid>
		<description>Henri&#039;s detailed analysis shows why/that central control and socialism must fail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henri&#8217;s detailed analysis shows why/that central control and socialism must fail.</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17087</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17087</guid>
		<description>Sirjay, thank you for both your response and the link to a piece which I found to be very enjoyable.

I am glad that you want to discuss possible definitions of transformation. It seems that we rarely progress to the more challenging investigations on that score - which is I suppose understandable for several reasons.

So I am going to suggest that you and I assume for the moment that one core aspect of transformation is that some sort of meaningful liability should lie against public officials that betray constitutional values. And yes, I am thinking about members of the JSC.

For that substantive aspect of transformation to become a societal fixture, I think that the ANC&#039;s pre-eminence cannot continue to be all but assured. And I think that if we are to see the establishment of a culture of accountability, the opposition parties are going to have to find the key. That is, I think it may be the case that the ANC would be less inclined to ignore the more irksome implications of the rule of law if it was less sure of itself. And incidently, that is precisely what I find so annoying about the ANC: much of its behaviour suggest that its members are quite smug.

My views here are hardly novel. But if there is any truth in them, I wonder if our society is ready for transformation. You see, a reasonably progressive bench which is sensitive to constitutional demands is an important condition for transformation - if by transformation we loosely mean societal progression towards the establishment of a South African community which reflects constitutional values. But I think that perhaps an even more important condition is transformation of the electorate. 

And maybe temporally we are still a little too close to the struggle for us to realise that even though corrective measures are often necessary, only a fool tries to walk backwards into the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sirjay, thank you for both your response and the link to a piece which I found to be very enjoyable.</p>
<p>I am glad that you want to discuss possible definitions of transformation. It seems that we rarely progress to the more challenging investigations on that score &#8211; which is I suppose understandable for several reasons.</p>
<p>So I am going to suggest that you and I assume for the moment that one core aspect of transformation is that some sort of meaningful liability should lie against public officials that betray constitutional values. And yes, I am thinking about members of the JSC.</p>
<p>For that substantive aspect of transformation to become a societal fixture, I think that the ANC&#8217;s pre-eminence cannot continue to be all but assured. And I think that if we are to see the establishment of a culture of accountability, the opposition parties are going to have to find the key. That is, I think it may be the case that the ANC would be less inclined to ignore the more irksome implications of the rule of law if it was less sure of itself. And incidently, that is precisely what I find so annoying about the ANC: much of its behaviour suggest that its members are quite smug.</p>
<p>My views here are hardly novel. But if there is any truth in them, I wonder if our society is ready for transformation. You see, a reasonably progressive bench which is sensitive to constitutional demands is an important condition for transformation &#8211; if by transformation we loosely mean societal progression towards the establishment of a South African community which reflects constitutional values. But I think that perhaps an even more important condition is transformation of the electorate. </p>
<p>And maybe temporally we are still a little too close to the struggle for us to realise that even though corrective measures are often necessary, only a fool tries to walk backwards into the future.</p>
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		<title>By: sirjay jonson</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17085</link>
		<dc:creator>sirjay jonson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17085</guid>
		<description>@Henri: outstanding. Lets those in the know start to speak, without fear, favor or prejudice, even if you need a handle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Henri: outstanding. Lets those in the know start to speak, without fear, favor or prejudice, even if you need a handle.</p>
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		<title>By: sirjay jonson</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17084</link>
		<dc:creator>sirjay jonson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17084</guid>
		<description>@leigh: I agree completely. But lets talk about what is transformation.  Also, have you seen: http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71656?oid=140044&amp;sn=Detail

where can I sign.

Prof, make this national.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@leigh: I agree completely. But lets talk about what is transformation.  Also, have you seen: <a href="http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71656?oid=140044&#038;sn=Detail" rel="nofollow">http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71656?oid=140044&#038;sn=Detail</a></p>
<p>where can I sign.</p>
<p>Prof, make this national.</p>
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		<title>By: The Big Slipper</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17083</link>
		<dc:creator>The Big Slipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17083</guid>
		<description>Mabitsela - if you insist on labelling all white people as having an impossible attitude, no matter how hard some of us try to dispel thay myth, then guess what - that&#039;s what you&#039;ll get...it&#039;s generalisation based on your perceptions of a skin colour, also called racism.

Collosomo - your argument on standards is ignorant, forgive my bluntness. I tell you what - you are going for a medical operation, which is high risk. Would you like a doctor who graduated from a university with &quot;standards&quot; to operate on you, or would you be willing to have a doctor who had read a medical textbook and bought a certificate online to operate on you? I for one would prefer a doctor who I knew had adhered to a particular internationally recognised set of standards, and had been able to satisfy them.

Standards are not an excuse - look at the civil service. Standards are routinely overlooked in favour of politically correct appointees. Off you go to Home Affairs and see how much fun you have there. 

As for &quot;western&quot; forensics, please tell me how a traditional African forensic investigation would differ from a &quot;Western&quot; one? Would we bring in a sangoma? As I recall, Shaka had a few of them put to death when their forensic investigation happened to produce a completely false result - would that make Shaka counter-revolutionary?

Is it honestly better that hospitals and police services sit without doctors and policemen because there are no qualified black candidates available? How does this benefit the poor and vulnerable? Or should we watch the poor (majority black, in SA) bleed to death on hospital floors in the name of transformation? Professionals of all races are leaving the country in droves to work overseas - the ones who choose to remain behind for whatever reason should be punished if they are the wrong skin colour?

AA is a good concept when it is implemented as a ground up concept. Unfortunately, very few people seem happy with the idea of actually having to work for something with support, and then get a nice job - they want pass marks lowered, they want experience requirements waived...that&#039;s never going to right the wrongs of the past. With the right to equality and the right to privelege previously denied also comes a personal responsibility to ensure that you are diligent about improving yourself - your education, your work situation, etc...AA cannot be a top-down handout simply because you are black. That will only ever perpetuate stereotypes and racism, from all sides of the spectrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mabitsela &#8211; if you insist on labelling all white people as having an impossible attitude, no matter how hard some of us try to dispel thay myth, then guess what &#8211; that&#8217;s what you&#8217;ll get&#8230;it&#8217;s generalisation based on your perceptions of a skin colour, also called racism.</p>
<p>Collosomo &#8211; your argument on standards is ignorant, forgive my bluntness. I tell you what &#8211; you are going for a medical operation, which is high risk. Would you like a doctor who graduated from a university with &#8220;standards&#8221; to operate on you, or would you be willing to have a doctor who had read a medical textbook and bought a certificate online to operate on you? I for one would prefer a doctor who I knew had adhered to a particular internationally recognised set of standards, and had been able to satisfy them.</p>
<p>Standards are not an excuse &#8211; look at the civil service. Standards are routinely overlooked in favour of politically correct appointees. Off you go to Home Affairs and see how much fun you have there. </p>
<p>As for &#8220;western&#8221; forensics, please tell me how a traditional African forensic investigation would differ from a &#8220;Western&#8221; one? Would we bring in a sangoma? As I recall, Shaka had a few of them put to death when their forensic investigation happened to produce a completely false result &#8211; would that make Shaka counter-revolutionary?</p>
<p>Is it honestly better that hospitals and police services sit without doctors and policemen because there are no qualified black candidates available? How does this benefit the poor and vulnerable? Or should we watch the poor (majority black, in SA) bleed to death on hospital floors in the name of transformation? Professionals of all races are leaving the country in droves to work overseas &#8211; the ones who choose to remain behind for whatever reason should be punished if they are the wrong skin colour?</p>
<p>AA is a good concept when it is implemented as a ground up concept. Unfortunately, very few people seem happy with the idea of actually having to work for something with support, and then get a nice job &#8211; they want pass marks lowered, they want experience requirements waived&#8230;that&#8217;s never going to right the wrongs of the past. With the right to equality and the right to privelege previously denied also comes a personal responsibility to ensure that you are diligent about improving yourself &#8211; your education, your work situation, etc&#8230;AA cannot be a top-down handout simply because you are black. That will only ever perpetuate stereotypes and racism, from all sides of the spectrum.</p>
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		<title>By: Mabitsela</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17081</link>
		<dc:creator>Mabitsela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17081</guid>
		<description>@ Leigh: In one of the blogs l made mention of a fact that White people need change their impossible attitude. When they will be able to do that is for anyone to speculate. I am certain that you are conversant of the fact that mainstream corporate world of SA is monopolised by Whites. As a result when Black attempt entering the market they make it difficult for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Leigh: In one of the blogs l made mention of a fact that White people need change their impossible attitude. When they will be able to do that is for anyone to speculate. I am certain that you are conversant of the fact that mainstream corporate world of SA is monopolised by Whites. As a result when Black attempt entering the market they make it difficult for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Public</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/saps-shows-how-not-to-implement-affirmative-action/#comment-17079</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Public</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1329#comment-17079</guid>
		<description>The reality is that we are all digging our heels either is the push for or resistance to transformation. In doing so, we might actually be breaking the law.

There are a number of cases in the public sector where precendent has been set by courts in the implementation of affirmative action and the limits of what is allowed as per EEA. These cases have shown that there is not much wrong with the law, only its implementation tby those who are either ignorant of the law or arrogant as to go beyond the scope of the law.

In the private sector, companies continue to stiffle the progress of black people. This is done in many ways and sadly those on the receiving side of this injustice are often unable or unwilling to take up cases. Those at the receiving end of such injustice do not black the laws but understand that some of their white colleagues, are just refusing to respect the rule of law. Added to this is a general misperception by a number of whites that black are incompetent. However the competency of whites is never questiond even if there is evidence of whites being incompetent. When one listens to some whites argue on important issues of the country, one wonders how they can claim to be competent in their jobs as some can hardly make logical and informed arguments.

But in the end and by any means necessary, the inequalities of the past will diminish, race will not be a determinant of one&#039;s opportunities and progress and our country will prosper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reality is that we are all digging our heels either is the push for or resistance to transformation. In doing so, we might actually be breaking the law.</p>
<p>There are a number of cases in the public sector where precendent has been set by courts in the implementation of affirmative action and the limits of what is allowed as per EEA. These cases have shown that there is not much wrong with the law, only its implementation tby those who are either ignorant of the law or arrogant as to go beyond the scope of the law.</p>
<p>In the private sector, companies continue to stiffle the progress of black people. This is done in many ways and sadly those on the receiving side of this injustice are often unable or unwilling to take up cases. Those at the receiving end of such injustice do not black the laws but understand that some of their white colleagues, are just refusing to respect the rule of law. Added to this is a general misperception by a number of whites that black are incompetent. However the competency of whites is never questiond even if there is evidence of whites being incompetent. When one listens to some whites argue on important issues of the country, one wonders how they can claim to be competent in their jobs as some can hardly make logical and informed arguments.</p>
<p>But in the end and by any means necessary, the inequalities of the past will diminish, race will not be a determinant of one&#8217;s opportunities and progress and our country will prosper.</p>
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