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	<title>Comments on: SCA delivers a scathing critique of Nicholson</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: ozoneblue</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10449</link>
		<dc:creator>ozoneblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10449</guid>
		<description>murray  // Jan 16, 2009 at 8:46 pm  

Correct. 

&quot;The NPA&#039;s persistence in pursuing its substantive striking out application directly brought this about,&quot; Hulley says in his Constitutional Court papers.&quot;

Harms stated that Nicholson should have struck those allegations off Zuma&#039;s founding affidavit  on demand of the NPA because they were irrelevant. According to Harms, Nicholson spend to much space in his judgment on the reasons why he would not strike them off.  On purely technical legal ground Harms appears to be correct : but I think Nicholson may have had justice on his mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>murray  // Jan 16, 2009 at 8:46 pm  </p>
<p>Correct. </p>
<p>&#8220;The NPA&#8217;s persistence in pursuing its substantive striking out application directly brought this about,&#8221; Hulley says in his Constitutional Court papers.&#8221;</p>
<p>Harms stated that Nicholson should have struck those allegations off Zuma&#8217;s founding affidavit  on demand of the NPA because they were irrelevant. According to Harms, Nicholson spend to much space in his judgment on the reasons why he would not strike them off.  On purely technical legal ground Harms appears to be correct : but I think Nicholson may have had justice on his mind.</p>
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		<title>By: The Big Slipper</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10446</link>
		<dc:creator>The Big Slipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10446</guid>
		<description>No I am not - I am not a lawyer, and do not unfortunately have time to study the examples you give.

However, I&#039;m not sure that I see the point - even if Harms was a terrible judge (imagine, for example, that he was inclined to grant litigants he was moonlighting for permission to sue his colleagues - shock horror gasp), he sits on a bench with four other judges precisely to ensure that the possibility of a mistake is mitigated as far as is possible.

To say Harms made an error in the judgement under discussion would be to imply that the full bench of the SCA all came to the same erroneous conclusion as him, and I cannot fathom that. Again, I refer only to SCA judgements, specifically the recent Zuma judgement, which was decided by Harms and the other 4 judges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No I am not &#8211; I am not a lawyer, and do not unfortunately have time to study the examples you give.</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m not sure that I see the point &#8211; even if Harms was a terrible judge (imagine, for example, that he was inclined to grant litigants he was moonlighting for permission to sue his colleagues &#8211; shock horror gasp), he sits on a bench with four other judges precisely to ensure that the possibility of a mistake is mitigated as far as is possible.</p>
<p>To say Harms made an error in the judgement under discussion would be to imply that the full bench of the SCA all came to the same erroneous conclusion as him, and I cannot fathom that. Again, I refer only to SCA judgements, specifically the recent Zuma judgement, which was decided by Harms and the other 4 judges.</p>
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		<title>By: murray</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10444</link>
		<dc:creator>murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The SCA has been scathing of Judge Nicholson for finding that there could have been a conspiracy against Jacob Zuma. However, some reports suggest that Judge Nicholson was compelled to make a decision on this (e.g. http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles11/interference.html). Are these reports incorrect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The SCA has been scathing of Judge Nicholson for finding that there could have been a conspiracy against Jacob Zuma. However, some reports suggest that Judge Nicholson was compelled to make a decision on this (e.g. <a href="http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles11/interference.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles11/interference.html</a>). Are these reports incorrect?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10196</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10196</guid>
		<description>Bongs - I&#039;ve survived similar scathing attacks from above, but I deserved it at the time. Nicholson J practically invited being thrashed, and he got it. I don&#039;t think Harms J dropped the ball even once. He was spot on all the time. ... But, even if he did (which I don&#039;t concede - &#039;civil law jargon&#039;), he focussed on the game and the rules of the game until the end. You, as a lawyer, should know, a trial is not a game, and one does not focus on how many mistakes the other side makes, and how many right moves you make. One focuses on the rules and, in the end, the points difference is what matters. Ha ... got you confused there!  Nicholson J gave himself out as the &#039;expert&#039; (or so he sounded and looked when he handed down his judgment on national TV)- and he should really have been. But he was a mere &#039;apprentice&#039; (or so he sounded and looked when he handed down his judgment on leave to appeal on national TV - he even stammered once or twice). Now there, I&#039;ve said it.

Furthermore four other SCA judges (I will not mention the racial break-down) concurred with Harms DJP. Would&#039;nt one have expected, at that level, that, if Harms DJP was totaly out of line, and we should&#039;nt even debate whether he has higher aspirations - because he would be dumb if he has, at least one of them with a higher calling would&#039;ve dared go against him, albeit only to say that some of his criticisms were unfounded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bongs &#8211; I&#8217;ve survived similar scathing attacks from above, but I deserved it at the time. Nicholson J practically invited being thrashed, and he got it. I don&#8217;t think Harms J dropped the ball even once. He was spot on all the time. &#8230; But, even if he did (which I don&#8217;t concede &#8211; &#8216;civil law jargon&#8217;), he focussed on the game and the rules of the game until the end. You, as a lawyer, should know, a trial is not a game, and one does not focus on how many mistakes the other side makes, and how many right moves you make. One focuses on the rules and, in the end, the points difference is what matters. Ha &#8230; got you confused there!  Nicholson J gave himself out as the &#8216;expert&#8217; (or so he sounded and looked when he handed down his judgment on national TV)- and he should really have been. But he was a mere &#8216;apprentice&#8217; (or so he sounded and looked when he handed down his judgment on leave to appeal on national TV &#8211; he even stammered once or twice). Now there, I&#8217;ve said it.</p>
<p>Furthermore four other SCA judges (I will not mention the racial break-down) concurred with Harms DJP. Would&#8217;nt one have expected, at that level, that, if Harms DJP was totaly out of line, and we should&#8217;nt even debate whether he has higher aspirations &#8211; because he would be dumb if he has, at least one of them with a higher calling would&#8217;ve dared go against him, albeit only to say that some of his criticisms were unfounded.</p>
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		<title>By: Bongs</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10193</link>
		<dc:creator>Bongs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10193</guid>
		<description>The Big Slipper, the other five judges concurred in the judgment of Harms DJP. On the examples I gave where I argue that Harms dropped the ball are you able to argue otherwise?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Big Slipper, the other five judges concurred in the judgment of Harms DJP. On the examples I gave where I argue that Harms dropped the ball are you able to argue otherwise?</p>
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		<title>By: Bongs</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10191</link>
		<dc:creator>Bongs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10191</guid>
		<description>Mouse,are you saying that 2 wrongs make a right or are you debating the essence of my post which is the impact of Harms&#039; judgment on the judiciary and examples of where he made unfounded criticism of Nicholson&#039;s judgment?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mouse,are you saying that 2 wrongs make a right or are you debating the essence of my post which is the impact of Harms&#8217; judgment on the judiciary and examples of where he made unfounded criticism of Nicholson&#8217;s judgment?</p>
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		<title>By: The Big Slipper</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10190</link>
		<dc:creator>The Big Slipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10190</guid>
		<description>Why all this attention on Harms? There are 5 judges there, the other 4 didn&#039;t sit around and drink coffee while poor Judge Harms furiously applied his mind and then drafted the verdict.

If you imply that Harms missed the point, dropped the ball, or anything to that effect, you&#039;re actually saying that five very astute legal minds buggered it up...something I find difficult to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why all this attention on Harms? There are 5 judges there, the other 4 didn&#8217;t sit around and drink coffee while poor Judge Harms furiously applied his mind and then drafted the verdict.</p>
<p>If you imply that Harms missed the point, dropped the ball, or anything to that effect, you&#8217;re actually saying that five very astute legal minds buggered it up&#8230;something I find difficult to believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10186</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10186</guid>
		<description>Bongs - Remember that some of the things Nicholson quoted were dropped by the Zuma team beforehand in chambers. You yourself said that Nicholson J would not have referred thereto had Trengrove not applied for an order of costs. Now, if he had dropped the allegations, because he did not have proof (in motion proceedings) to back up his version, he did not &quot;say&quot; that, and Nicholson J couldn&#039;t have relied thereon. But, in any event, even if he had &#039;said&#039; it in his papers, mere suspicions weren&#039;t enough for Nicholson J to decide motion proceedings on. Remember - motion proceedings are decided on the law - not on a balance of probabilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bongs &#8211; Remember that some of the things Nicholson quoted were dropped by the Zuma team beforehand in chambers. You yourself said that Nicholson J would not have referred thereto had Trengrove not applied for an order of costs. Now, if he had dropped the allegations, because he did not have proof (in motion proceedings) to back up his version, he did not &#8220;say&#8221; that, and Nicholson J couldn&#8217;t have relied thereon. But, in any event, even if he had &#8216;said&#8217; it in his papers, mere suspicions weren&#8217;t enough for Nicholson J to decide motion proceedings on. Remember &#8211; motion proceedings are decided on the law &#8211; not on a balance of probabilities.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10185</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10185</guid>
		<description>bongs et ozoneblue - As jy jouself vir &#039;n toffie uitgee, moet jy verwag dat daar aan jou gelek / gekou sal word. ... Nicholson J drew a Bulls-eye on his own behind; and, if someone throws darts at it, he shouldn&#039;t cry: &quot;Ouch!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bongs et ozoneblue &#8211; As jy jouself vir &#8216;n toffie uitgee, moet jy verwag dat daar aan jou gelek / gekou sal word. &#8230; Nicholson J drew a Bulls-eye on his own behind; and, if someone throws darts at it, he shouldn&#8217;t cry: &#8220;Ouch!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ozoneblue</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/sca-delivers-a-scathing-critique-of-nicholson/#comment-10183</link>
		<dc:creator>ozoneblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=759#comment-10183</guid>
		<description>Perhaps another example form the Harms judgment:

&#039;But the term ‘prima facie evidence&#039; has more than one connotation and may mean, as Mr Ngcuka conveyed, that there may be evidence of the commission of a crime which is nonetheless insufficient to satisfy the threshold of a reasonable prospect of success, especially if regard is had to the burden of proof in a criminal case.[44] Although corruption involves two persons, the fact that the one may be guilty does not mean that the other is also guilty because the intention of each party must be decided separately, and evidence that may be admissible against the one may not be admissible against the other.[45] In other words, the fact that Mr Shaik was found guilty does not mean that Mr Zuma is guilty.&quot;

Yet - from Ngcuka&#039;s affidavit quoted in the Nicholson judgment:

&quot;Bribery, as a common law offence, or in its statutory form, under the Corruption laws, is a bilateral offence. It cannot be committed by a person alone. In the papers reference is made to an affidavit in prior proceedings by Mr Ngcuka in which he says &#039;At the time when I prepared my announcement, I was in possession of a draft indictment against, inter alios, Schabir Shaik. In this indictment, reference was of necessity made to his relationship with [Mr Zuma] and the bribe agreement with Thetard. This indictment spelled out, far more eloquently than my statement, what was clearly a prima facie case of corruption against [Mr Zuma].&#039;&quot;

Harms suggesting, nay speculating, that Ngcuka, a lawyer by profession,  is not being clear or may be using the term sort of loosely when he uttered the words &quot;what was clearly a prima facie case of corruption&quot; ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps another example form the Harms judgment:</p>
<p>&#8216;But the term ‘prima facie evidence&#8217; has more than one connotation and may mean, as Mr Ngcuka conveyed, that there may be evidence of the commission of a crime which is nonetheless insufficient to satisfy the threshold of a reasonable prospect of success, especially if regard is had to the burden of proof in a criminal case.[44] Although corruption involves two persons, the fact that the one may be guilty does not mean that the other is also guilty because the intention of each party must be decided separately, and evidence that may be admissible against the one may not be admissible against the other.[45] In other words, the fact that Mr Shaik was found guilty does not mean that Mr Zuma is guilty.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yet &#8211; from Ngcuka&#8217;s affidavit quoted in the Nicholson judgment:</p>
<p>&#8220;Bribery, as a common law offence, or in its statutory form, under the Corruption laws, is a bilateral offence. It cannot be committed by a person alone. In the papers reference is made to an affidavit in prior proceedings by Mr Ngcuka in which he says &#8216;At the time when I prepared my announcement, I was in possession of a draft indictment against, inter alios, Schabir Shaik. In this indictment, reference was of necessity made to his relationship with [Mr Zuma] and the bribe agreement with Thetard. This indictment spelled out, far more eloquently than my statement, what was clearly a prima facie case of corruption against [Mr Zuma].&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>Harms suggesting, nay speculating, that Ngcuka, a lawyer by profession,  is not being clear or may be using the term sort of loosely when he uttered the words &#8220;what was clearly a prima facie case of corruption&#8221; ?</p>
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