The state’s cross-examination of former Police Commissioner Jackie Selebi finally came to an end on Friday. I have been following the cross-examination of Selebi on the Mail & Guardian’s amaBhungane Twitter page: not as good as being in court oneself, but facinating – even riveting – nevertheless.
At the end of the cross-examination it was very clear why Selebi’s council, Jaap Cilliers, had brought an application for the acquittal of Selebi at the end of the state’s case. Having consulted with Selebi, he must have realised that Selebi might not make the best of witnesses and that he might not be able to keep his story straight, so it was imperative to keep him away from the witness stand.
We do not know – and I am in no way speculating – on whether Selebi will be convicted on any of the charges he faces. It is for a court to decide whether the state has proven its case beyond reasonable doubt after hearing all the evidence. But the cross-examination did reveal that Selebi was a less than reliable witness. His “Swiss army knife” defence (Selebi claimed previously that the only present Glen Agliotti ever gave him was a Swiss army knife) turned into a classical “the dog ate my homework” defence.
Selebi claimed during the cross examination that he had cash slips and receipts in his possession proving what he had spent his money on and disproving the state’s claim that he had received hundreds of thousands of Rands from Agliotti as bribes. But on Friday Selebi failed to bring cash slips and receipts to court as requested because he claims his wife destroyed them on Thursday.
Both prosecutor Gerrie Nel and Judge Meyer Joffee looked astonished when Selebi told them he did not bring the receipts because his wife did not only discarded the slips but actually shredded them (yeah right). The former police chief claimed that his wife had shredded them on Thursday because she had found credit card statements which she thought would be better evidence. Nel described this explanation as ridiculous and accused Selebi of playing to the court. He said this showed Selebi was arrogant and had no credibility, a claim one finds difficult to dispute.
Then there was the “secret report” that Selebi claimed he had declassified and had at home. He was sent home to fetch it, but when he produced a document the next day Gerrie Nel claimed that the document was a “cut and paste” job. Nel pointed out several problematic issues in the document such as different colours in the printed fonts, the SAPS logo cut off on the front page original when it appears in full on the “copy” handed in earlier and differences in the typing on various paragraphs.
As I followed the crumbling of Selebi’s various stories under relentless cross-examination, I was reminded of the Judicial Services Commission (JSC) and wondered whether the members of that august group were taking notes and whether they felt embarrassed at all for deciding not to proceed to establish the truth of the complaint of gross misconduct levelled against Judge President John Hlophe by the judges of the Constitutional Court and not to consider the counter-complaint by Hlophe either.
Remember, the majority of members decided that although there were fundamental disputes of fact between the version put to it by Judge President John Hlophe and the versions put to it by other judges of the Constitutional Court (in other words, although the JSC admitted that either Hlophe or the judges of the Constitutional Court were lying), the JSC was not persuaded that cross-examination would “necessarily lead to more clarity on the disputed issues”.
As has so amply been demonstrated by the Selebi case (as well as by the devastating cross examination of Menzi Simelane at the Ginwala Inquiry where he was exposed as a person with a difficult relationship to the truth), this kind of argument is such utter nonsense that one cannot believe that any lawyer would have made it with a straight face. If the three main protagonists had been cross-examined vigorously two things would have emerged.
First, some witnesses would have shown themselves to be more credible and others less so and thus their version of events would have had to be accepted as the more plausible. After cross-examination the finder of fact must decide whose version was more probably true and to help them in this, credibility becomes all important. Cross-examination helps to make findings on credibility “finish and klaar” (as Selebi said about his friendshipp with Agliotti).
Second, the judge or judges who had lied might very well have been exposed as such because – as Selebi has shown – if you start lying it is difficult to keep your story straight and then you tell more lies, which leads to even more lies and finally to exposure as a liar.
In any case, as it turned out, the cross-examination was not really necessary as the JSC had already decided who were probably lying to them during the Hlophe affair and who were telling the truth: it just did not want to take the action it is constitutionally required to take. Given the fact that both Hlophe and Judge Chris Jafta (who had contradicted Hlophe’s version of events) applied for a position to the Constitutional Court after the decision by the JSC not to go ahead with a hearing, and given the fact that the JSC had nominated Jafta for a position on the court but not Hlophe, one must make the irresistible inference that the JSC believed Jafta and Judge Bess Nkabinde and not Hlophe.
There were two versions of the events that took place in the offices of Jafta and Nkabinde before the JSC: Hlophe’s version and the version of the other two judges. If the JSC had thought that Hlophe was telling the truth, it surely would not have appointed Jafta to the Constitutional Court. Even for the JSC it must surely be unthinkable to appoint someone to the highest court in the country it suspects of having told blatant lies about a fellow judge. If it had thought Hlophe was the honest one, surely he and not Jafta would have been nominated for a position on the top court by the JSC.
In any event, what the Jackie Selebi cross-examination shows is that the JSC’s argument that cross-examination of Hlophe, Jafta and Nkabinde would not take the matter further was about as credible as Selebi’s “the dog ate my homework” defence. Given the fact that the JSC’s original decision has now been set aside, the JSC will have to make a new decision on whether to do its job or not. When it does, it would really enhance that institution’s credibility if it keeps in mind what happened to Selebi under cross-examination. But don’t hold your breath.
@ Pierre – I have not read this piece yet, but this has got to be the funniest headline of the year.
“Selebi case: ‘The dog ate his homework’”.
The self-serving arrogance of the JSC knows no bounds. It is almost beyond belief that they have decided to appeal against the Cape High Court judgement which does nothing more that instruct them to do their constitutionally-mandated job. That they are going out of their way to protect their brutha Hlophe indicates irrefutably that they are a politicised and ANC-aligned cabal. Their ill-disguised dislike for premier Helen Zille and their pretending that they do not need to consider her presence in the deliberations reflects extremely poorly on this body as a whole. There is absolutely no doubt that with Menzi Simelane and that odious Jeff Radebe in the saddle, the independence of the judicial system and the upholding of the rule of law is under serious threat.
Very hilarious Maggs…
The most bitter side effect of this mauling by Nel of this alleged head of Interpol, surely, is to expose for all to admire just what calibre of man we had available to run the police?
I, too, followed the case, and have been astonished by Selebi’s performance. With that man anywhere near in charge, no wonder the crime situation is what it is. Does mr Fassbinder, following from a previous post, still want to pick up the argument of “there are skill shortages”, a la Manyi?
Unbelievable, what a spectacle we’re making of our institutions. Do South Africans really believe that this sort of mis-management has no repercussions? That we retain ‘investment status’, whilst we talk nationalising, suffer the Eskom and municipal performance, soon-to-be water disaster, the hollowing-out of our criminal justice system, the promotion of morons into leadership positions, a la Malema, and so on?
Given that this is all tolerated, at times even triumphantly so, you’ve got to believe that the actions of the bystanders (such as investors, be they local or global) don’t matter, or are not affected by such stories and events. I hold a different view (i.e. the investors’ actions matter, and the sort of information we make available matters in determining their actions). I’m in that world – not the world of legal eagles – but I know of at least two (foreign) investors who sent observers to this Selebi trial. Seems like his posting to Interpol has set Selebi up as a ‘typical’ South African government leader in the eyes of these guys, and they wanted a first-hand experience.
I expect the same reaction as the reaction in the Netherlands after Carl Niehaus got his day in the sunshine: downgrading of South Africa on the list of possible investments. We saw the same in Manto’s heyday – I know of an investor who walked away from investing a billion pounds in the SA healthcare sector. And so on.
Now, perhaps Mr Fassbinder would like to persuade us/me that this stuff doesn’t matter in the greater scheme of things, or that this was an Mbeki-era abberation (always fun to have this implied “that was a another ANC” argument, as if there’s a twin sister), or, perhaps, think of me as another racist, and avoid any issue on merit?
So, whilst I enjoyed the spectacle of confirming Selebi as just another childish thug with no apparent skills, the bigger impact of that spectacle will live with all of us, whether we like that or not, and in a very direct way.
Ahh, this is a fun website, thanks Prof
PdV says
“Given the fact that both Hlophe and Judge Chris Jafta (who had contradicted Hlophe’s version of events) applied for a position to the Constitutional Court after the decision by the JSC not to go ahead with a hearing, and given the fact that the JSC had nominated Jafta for a position on the court but not Hlophe, one must make the irresistible inference that the JSC believed Jafta and Judge Bess Nkabinde and not Hlophe”.
_______
And an irresistible conclusion that the JSC, nevertheless, decided not to put Hlophe under cross-examination because for the fear that the truth could have come out that Hlophe did in fact illegally and unconstitutionally advocated for the finding in favour of JZ, he indeed had a mandate from his political masters from the “revolutionary house” and that unmasking the person behind the mandate could have further embarrassed the head of the revolutionary house who is sometimes the president of the republic.
Graham, the independence of justice and the rule of law have long passed the stage of being “under threat”, there is just neither such a thing as the independent judiciary nor the rule of law anymore. You cannot have a JZ, Jeff Radebe, JSC and Menzi Simelane as custodians of our constitution and judicial system and still have independent judiciary and the rule of law; let alone one that is there but just under threat.
Hi Xitlonyi, you’re right. I have understated the crisis.
pekkil monta says:
May 3, 2010 at 12:58 pm
“Now, perhaps Mr Fassbinder would like to persuade us/me that this stuff doesn’t matter in the greater scheme of things, or that this was an Mbeki-era abberation”
Mr Fassbinder would probably do a lot more than that.
Possibly comments like none of the apartheid era police commissioners, er generals, were ever charged.
Or that this is a racist campaign against what he would call an “exemplary” civil servant.
Fassbinder may even try and divert us by pointing out that the judge, the prosecutor and the lawyer are white, so expect anything.
He may even try to set up a Friends-of-Selebi (FOS) movement.
@ pekkil
You say:
Does mr Fassbinder, following from a previous post, still want to pick up the argument of “there are skill shortages”, a la Manyi?
I say:
Can you perhaps explain how Selebi’s “illegal acts” get linked with skills shortage?
FYI, here is Selebi’s Profile
Selebi was a representative of the World Federation of Democratic Youth in Budapest, Hungary from 1983 – 1987. Thereafter he was elected Head of the ANC Youth League and member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC in 1987. In 1991 he was responsible for the repatriation of ANC exiles and in 1993 was appointed Head of the Department of Welfare of the ANC. Selebi was elected Member of Parliament during the 1994 elections. In 1995, Selebi was appointed South Africa’s Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Geneva. Switzerland.[1] In 1998 he received a Human Rights Award from the International Service for Human Rights.[5][6]
Dear Gwebecimele
Hungarian democratic youth in the 80′s, that should have been sufficient warning for anyone.
If you read what I was commenting on – it was his performance in court. Petulant. Childish. Stupid. Boorish. Plain Dumb. Bully. Need I go on. I have no issues with Selebi, I have an issue that this sort of amateurish clown was apparently the best guy we could find to lead the fight with crime. And maybe it’s not a shared impression – but the performance of SA on crime is, and was, appaling. And this is what we bring into this fight?
I didn’t comment on his criminal acts, but even there he’s stupid and cheap. Meeting a guy like Rautenbach for a few thousand dollars? Being for sale with some clothes? Clearly, this guy was so far out of his league, it is laughable. We couldn’t even find a professional crook for the position? That, my friend, is where the skills shortages bite, doesn’t it?
I can clearly see the remnants of Welfare from his CV (especially for himself), and the Human Rights focus (he’ll need that in about a week, I’d guess), but truly, a moron who hides behind his wife shredding the evidence is the best we can do? Have you no self respect? This inept below-average-anything represented you and me at the UN in Geneva, and this doesn’t worry you? Instead you’re asking me explain the illegal acts (which I didn’t mention)?
Hmm, are we talking about the same posts?
Dear Maggs, I’m getting hang of the Fassbinder phenomena….
Luckily, Selebi did choose his own (white) lawyer, at least? Afrikaans and all? Or is that all part of the plot?
Curious how charging the apartheid generals creates a better impression of Selebi, other than to perhaps suggest that thuggish stupidity and moronic practices somehow go with the job…?
Every site needs one!
Hey Maggs, I rather like that ‘Friends-of-Selebi’ acronym.
pekkil monta says:
May 3, 2010 at 14:56 pm
“I’m getting hang of the Fassbinder phenomena….”
Fassbinder aka Dworky aka the Big Dork (oops I meant Dwork) is extremely astute.
He’s perfected caricature through reductionist irony, if ever such a thing is possible.
In summary, like a stuck record, he can be a royal pain in the butt!
@ Pekkil
I, for one, was proud to hear that General Selebi was a representative of the World Federation of Democratic Youth in Budapest circa 1983. I always found it inspiring that the people of the socialist nations in Eastern Europe stood in solidarity with The Struggle. (See also Minister Radebe’s distingusihed academic stint in the GDR, and Cmd Mbeki’s time at the Lenin Institute.)
And let’s not forget our resident mass-murderer, since deceased, also from one of these serious institutions……
But I was hoping that you’d have a view on the original article, you know, in the spirit of getting to know you?
General selebi, nailing his own coffin, finish and klaar!
http://www.mg.co.za/zapiro/all
Pekkil Monta, May3, 2010, 14:48
You could not be that spot on Monta. That was my understanding of your post too. Hwever, even on the basis of the many positions Selebi may have occupied in his life before the one he is living in court, as kindly provided by Gwebs by way of Selebi’s abridged CV; there is a fertile ground upon which one could challenge Gwebs on whether or not Selebi’s performance in court (that is if Gwebs understood your post before responding with Selebi’s CV) indicates that he acquired any “skill” in that he used in this trial to at least salvage a bit of his credibility that he so foolishly exposed to Nel for easy meal.
The other point to note in this regards is that in all these positions that Gwebe mentioned, Selebi was appointed by the ANC whose record of appointments has not always been synonymous with one’s possession of skills. And Selebi’s performance in his trial clearly indicate this in a classical manner; just like Zuma the former Head of ANC’s Intelligence Unit getting easily trapped in a rape incident and that of Mo Shaik (and Mac Maharaj) another ANC intelligence `king’ under Zuma who miscalculated their spy allegations against Bulelani Nqcuka.
I would like to agree with you prof, good cross-exam is deadly and it is therefore dificult to imagine why a team of lawyers (at the JSC) chose not to use this system in order to clarify the challenge they had before them.
It is needless to comment about credibility because I doubt if the honourable Selebi is left with any element/particle of it.
During January 2008 Gerrie Nel was arrested by about 20 policeman. Unlike Selebi at the time of his arrest, Nel was cuffrd if the presence of his wife and children. His house was also raided, but nothing found. This took place after several prosecutors refused to apply for a warrant, because of a lack of evidence. Just days later the case was withdrawn, again because of a lack of evidence. This was widely seen as an attempt to intimidate Nel, who was preparing an application to have Selebi arrested at the time. Selebi was also preparing a High Court application to stop the investigation against him when Nel was arrested.
I can’t help wondering if the he was humiliated at the time, was perhaps the motivation for Nel to go extra hard for Selebi.
@ chris
you see, that was the interesting thing, Nel didn’t have to work that hard to make sure everyone understood Selebi to be pathetic. And I understand that his own secretary put it all beyond doubt today, confirming that this famous stamp was only used for the Christmas cards. How stupid do we have to be to believe in this bunch sent upon us to rule?
pekkil monta says:
May 3, 2010 at 16:56 pm
Yes, it must be terrible to hear your own witness contradicting you like that.
Who are we kidding? this guy is an idiot!
In judging the poor performance of Selebi in the witness box, I think you are all missing the point. Selebi knows the outcome of the trial, and he is not bothered by the merits.
Selebi played a critical role in our Democracy, and was promised that he will be protected at all costs. My only regret is that he’s not giving his protectors enough to work with. They might have to go the Intelligence route – again.
I wish Selebi can go to jail for some years. He’s one of Mbeki allies. They will pay one by one for what they tried to do to Zuma.
Sine says:
May 3, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Hey Sne – it’s contagious.
The lawyer caught it too.
“Defence lawyer Jaap Cilliers had intended calling the pilot who flew Selebi to Upington on official police business in December 2005, on the day the State alleges he received cash from the Agliotti.
“The pilot was however ‘out of the country’”.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Selebi-had-open-door-policy-20100503
The only real conspiracy has been that of the elite to sterilize the justice system. Selebi has actively participated in this, attempting in the past not to foul his own nest while failing hopelessly. I humbly predict he will be found guilty. Law of averages suggests, and I am aware many will think this beyond rational thought, is that Nel is due. May he finally be gifted accordingly.
Xitlonyi says:
May 3, 2010 at 16:36 pm
“Selebi was appointed by the ANC whose record of appointments has not always been synonymous with one’s possession of skills.”
As best as I recall, it was the the former Police Commissioner, George Fivaz, who identified and recommended Selebi as his replacement.
@ pekkil
Put differently or lets forget the “illegal acts”
What is the poor perfomance of Selebi in the witness box has to do with skill shortages in the country?
I suspect that Selebi just like many of ANC activists had noble intentions to serve the people before and after 94 but were overwhelmed by the free for all approach that was adopted by liberation government. There are many others(including apartheid govt) who can outperform Selebi in the witness box if we were to open up arms deal, Bosasa contracts, Raids in Lesotho, Transkei and other questionable deals.
How often does it happen that a prosecutor gets a chance to grill someone who once arrested him before?
I have no sympathy for him except to say just like others who suffered a similar fate such as Pikoli, Masethla etc its time for tears.
I fully agree with your assessment of his performance in the witness box but I do not understand the link with shortage of skills.
Gwebecimele says:
May 3, 2010 at 22:33 pm
It has much to do with the skill shortages. Persons with the neccessary skills were kicked out to be replaced with clueless clowns like Selebi. Persons with the neccessary skills were overlooked, because they didn’t have high profile friend like Selebi, and instead persons with no skills at all, but the correct friends high up in the ANC were appointed. Do you think Menzi Similane was appointed because he is a skilled prosecutor. Has he appeared even once in court as prosecutor? That is why he is messing up big time, he doesn’t know what his work entails. Why are the municipalities in such a mess? Municipal managers with skills was fired to make place for clueless political friends. The list is endless, and the government just got rid of skilled persons, creating a the lack of skills and service delivery we see today.
You call it a “free for all approach”. Why not use the correct term: “corruption is fine with us”.
The apartheid government generals had their turn in the accused box: Remember the trial of Magnus Malan and Wouter Basson. When they were in the witness box they didn’t make fools of themselves, it was the prosecutors and accusers who were made fools off. Many blame the judge for Basson’s acquittal. Its like blaming the messenger who tells you there wasn’t enough evidence, while you wanted him to be guilty so badly.
Good God!
Lindelani has arisen from his grave. What stone did someone accidentally turn up to release him?
Welcome back to the debate Mr Maseko. We’ve missed your voice of reason for too long now.
Chris says:
May 4, 2010 at 7:01 am
“It has much to do with the skill shortages.”
Hey Chris,
Are you suggesting that bureaucrats who are criminally inclined are so because they lack skills to do their jobs?
Or that the government carefully selects and deploys criminals to high profile posts as the alternative to “skilled” people outside their ranks?
Another Zapiro dig
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/article39508.ece
Lindelani, I am disappointed to hear you, of all people, add your voice to the baying hounds that have tried and sentenced General Selebi in absentia.
Allow me to pose just two questions:
1. Were you aware that General Selebi was a highly competent ANC delegate to the International Youth Peace Festival in Hungary in 1983?
2. Are you now aware that General Selebi is the subject of a campaign of arrant RACISM, that he is prosecuted by a man with white tendencies who was associated with the SCORPIONS, and that the judge presiding is wholly UNTRANSFORMED?
There is a very valuable lesson in what Gerrie Nel is doing to Selebi and we should all learn from it.
We should use the manifest stupidity, incompetence, arrogance, etc, of some ANC politicians and functionaries as a weapon to drive the party out of power. The many good people in the ANC will then start to leave and this will signal the end
You always go for your opponents weakest points if you want to defeat them
@ MDF @ 8,51
That is SO lame and well short of your usual high standards
Maggs Naidu says:
May 4, 2010 at 7:29 am
There seems to be a connection. Or could it be that everyone steals, but only the stupid get caught? Those in power are supposed to look at both aspects when making an appointment: 1. Does this person have the skills to do the job. 2. Does this person have the integrity to do the job? At this stage I get the idea that they don’t take skills or integrity into account, just friendship or political connections. If those in charge are criminals, you can expect that their friend are likely to be criminals too. And when they appoint their friends . . .
I’m just glad Glen Agliotti was not interested in a high profile police job, because he had the friend in the right place, finish and klaar.
Chris says:
May 4, 2010 at 9:23 am
Hey Chris,
I do think that in many instances that integrity is not a principal consideration when especially senior government appointments are made, which is most unfortunate.
Of course it does not stop there. MPs, ministers, parliamentary whips, parastatal bosses, sports administrators …….
@ Chris
Thanks for you most convincing and coherent linking of Selebi and skills shortage. I have no doubt that you have enlightened us.
Apparantly there are 10 000 (ex)cops in jail. Will it be 10 001 in the near future? I certainly hope so. What a pathetic bozq…
Gwebecimele says:
May 4, 2010 at 10:25 am
You are most welcome. Just tell me when you are in the dark again.
@ Prof De Vos
Surely a MUCH bigger lost opportunity was the lost opportunity for President Zuma to be cross examined in his corruption trial.
I would fully accept a “Not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” finding on all counts if the trial had gone ahead and all the evidence had been led and subject to cross examination.
As it is, our President has the same amount of credibility with me as athletes who refuse a drug test – the inescapable conclusion to be drawn is that they have something to hide and are guilty.
If Pres Zuma is in fact innocent, then surely a massive injustice was done to Schabir Shaik, and there is something very wrong with our justice system?
Thanks goodness most of these clowns are not too smart and soon reveal themselves to be so – intelligence and dishonesty make for a dangerous combination!
@John_Michael
The W Cape administration has uncovered 40,000 (yes, that’s right – it is not a typo – forty thousand) non-qualifying (ie fraudulent) welfare benefit claimants in governement service (local or regional).
The scale of the rot is difficult to comprehend.
@ Peter L,
Any idea of the number of government service employees there are in the WC?
We seem to be quite a corrupt lot here in the Western Cape…..! Would it be the same in other parts of the country or are we special?
@ Pierre – that number sounds extraordinarily large.
It sounds unbelievable.
Maybe Peter will provide the source of the info.
Maggs 3, 2010 at 21:46 pm
`…Selebi recommended by former police commissioner, George Fivaz…..’
Yes, it is true. And the ANC government obliged as if the recommendation was an instruction because they know no better about appointing a person on merit.
@ Xintloyi
That is not true, Fivaz (White male) should have inborn super powers of identifying skills at a distance and aslo predict performance.
PdV 4, 2010 at 14:14
Western Cape being a lot corrupt…?
I so far believe Mpumalanga is the undisputed most corrupt province in SA. But as they say, beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I spent the whole of last week in Polokwane. I was taken on tour to a splash estate called TenderPark where I was also shown some houses belonging to senior ANC members in the province. I was also told horrible corruption stories about how some of the ruling party members and those of the youth league got rich instantly and some of the houses they own. I then had to rethink my codification of Mpumalanga as the most corrupt province in the country. However, this rethinking process, did not exonerate Mpumalanga, instead it led me to the conclusion that in the whole country under the ANC government, particularly after Polokwane, has become more corrupt beyond repair – that is as long as Jesus delay to come back and save us from the ANC particularly the current administration.
Yes Gwebe (less the attributes), but why different outccome in the area where the man was supposed to demonstrate some of these skills?
@ Maggs
The source of the info was a local radio report.
I recall reading that a forensic audit was done on ALL recent welfare claims in KZN, and the number of fraudulent claims was also in the region of 40,000 out of 2,500,000 claimants.
40,000 (each month!) is a lot of fraudsters, but 1.6% of the total looks like a much lower number.
In view of the fact that we do not have universal unemployment benefits or a basic income grant, it is unsurprising that pension fraud in particular is so rife.
In rural areas, many state pensioners support up to 10 dependants,
When the pensioner dies, up to 10 people are left desperate and destitute.
Given the level of inefficiency and corruption in home affairs, I would suspect that the true level of fraud is quite a bit higher than we think (fraudulent birth certificates, foreigners gainiong access to benefits etc).
Sadly, the people that suffer most are the pensioners that DO qualify, but have to wait ages for their accreditation.
Peter L says:
May 4, 2010 at 15:38 pm
Whether it’s 40000 fraudsters or 40 000 fraudulent claims it’s still a heck of a big number.
Do you know how many civil servants are employed in WC?
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-05-05-selebi-prosecutors-accused-of-abusing-state-funds
@Maggs
I am struggling to get accurate figures, but I would imagine that the W Cape numbers (number of government employees) are similar to those of KZN, as the provinces are fairly similar in size.
@Gwebecimele
The witness has made an allegation in court – we await seeing the evidence to substantiate his claims with interest.
The previous claims against Nel and subsequent arrest were found to be entirely without substance or merit – how about a bottle of Johnny Walker Black on the outcome of this latest allegation?.
What is clear to me is that various branches of government and the justice system are trying to manipulate the criminal justice system in furtherance of a political agenda.
Perhaps JS believes in the old adage “The best form of defence is attack”.
Question: Let’s play devils’ advocate and assume that the allegations against Nel are true – how is that relevant to the charges against Selebi?
@ Peter L or anyone who can assist
An allegation has been made in court under oath against Nel. Who must pick up this matter and provide Nel a chance to answer to these charges? Who must lay these charges? Or any possible scenarios.
@Gwebecimele
My understanding is that either the witness that made the allegation – Prince Mokotedi – must lay a charge with the police, or the Police must investigate the allegation, and if they find credible evidence to support it, lay criminal charges against Nel.
The witness appears to have been in the thick of the “Spy versus Spy” political spats between NDPP, Scorpions, Hawks, SAPS etc, so who knows the veracity of his allegations.
How about the bet, mate – I have a botttle of JW in my booze cabinet, and am quite happy to put my money – or bottle – where my mouth is!
@ Maggs and Xitlonyi
Re: George Fivaz recommended Selebi for the position.
Would that be the same George Fivaz that left the force to start up his own forensic investigation organisation – Fivaz and associates whose major clients include SAPS ANC and government?
And whose foot soldiers include a few Apartheid-era operatives?
On the other hand, the DA employed Fivaz & associates to expose the Cape Town City council Chaban “spying” and “phone tapping” scandal that helped sped up Ebrahim REasool’s demise.
Peter L says:
May 7, 2010 at 15:57 pm
“Would that be the same George Fivaz …”
Maybe.
And your point is?
@ Peter L
And the bet is?