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	<title>Comments on: Shaik pardon: unwise but not illegal?</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-21043</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-21043</guid>
		<description>mayimele says:
October 27, 2009 at 11:49 am

Yep.

Unless all of us elevate the conversation in that regard it will only get worse.

I really don&#039;t have an issue with my communications being intercepted if it is in the general pursuit of the well being of South Africa.

I have an issue with the way the intercepted communications have been used and that no one is held to account.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mayimele says:<br />
October 27, 2009 at 11:49 am</p>
<p>Yep.</p>
<p>Unless all of us elevate the conversation in that regard it will only get worse.</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t have an issue with my communications being intercepted if it is in the general pursuit of the well being of South Africa.</p>
<p>I have an issue with the way the intercepted communications have been used and that no one is held to account.</p>
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		<title>By: mayimele</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-21041</link>
		<dc:creator>mayimele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-21041</guid>
		<description>@Maggs Naidu, now I get your point and agree with you on your concern. My major one however, in the whole equation is the behaviour and the conduct of the NIA, Frazer et al in particular when they break the law with impunity by using their state&#039; offices and machinery to conduct illegal interception of even the (former) president&#039;s telephone conversation for the benefit of individuals and the fact that the government through the police and NPA deliberately ignore their criminal acts by allowing them to continue with their jobs without any punishment. The reason behind this is obviously clear - the current president himself is benefiting handsomely from these acts; but it has long term detrimental consequences to our justice system and fight against corruption now and in future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Maggs Naidu, now I get your point and agree with you on your concern. My major one however, in the whole equation is the behaviour and the conduct of the NIA, Frazer et al in particular when they break the law with impunity by using their state&#8217; offices and machinery to conduct illegal interception of even the (former) president&#8217;s telephone conversation for the benefit of individuals and the fact that the government through the police and NPA deliberately ignore their criminal acts by allowing them to continue with their jobs without any punishment. The reason behind this is obviously clear &#8211; the current president himself is benefiting handsomely from these acts; but it has long term detrimental consequences to our justice system and fight against corruption now and in future.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-21030</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:15:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-21030</guid>
		<description>mayimele says:
October 27, 2009 at 9:33 am

I agree with you on the consequences of leaving any acts of misconduct or criminality unpunished simply because they are small or minor or that the cost of prosecuting anyone who commited them will be huge.
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&quot;A FORMER top official in the Mpumalanga public works department, who incurred an unnecessary expenditure of R200 000 in a land deal, has gone scot-free.

&quot;State lawyers had advised that pursuing the case against the official would &#039;not be cost-effective&#039;&quot;.

http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1081920

But then we have this http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1082229</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mayimele says:<br />
October 27, 2009 at 9:33 am</p>
<p>I agree with you on the consequences of leaving any acts of misconduct or criminality unpunished simply because they are small or minor or that the cost of prosecuting anyone who commited them will be huge.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
&#8220;A FORMER top official in the Mpumalanga public works department, who incurred an unnecessary expenditure of R200 000 in a land deal, has gone scot-free.</p>
<p>&#8220;State lawyers had advised that pursuing the case against the official would &#8216;not be cost-effective&#8217;&#8221;.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1081920" rel="nofollow">http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1081920</a></p>
<p>But then we have this <a href="http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1082229" rel="nofollow">http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1082229</a></p>
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		<title>By: mayimele</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-21027</link>
		<dc:creator>mayimele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-21027</guid>
		<description>@Mike Atkins, I agree with you on the consequences of leaving any acts of misconduct or criminality unpunished simply because they are small or minor or that the cost of prosecuting anyone who commited them will be huge. I just did not put my position on the choice between persuing justice at all costs and avoiding the wastefullness that is there in doing so in the interests of justice. But had I thought of taking a position between the two sides I would have sang the same song as I hereby do agree with you that we should punish anyone for any act of misconduct or criminality irrespective of the size or proportion of the act versus the prosecurion costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mike Atkins, I agree with you on the consequences of leaving any acts of misconduct or criminality unpunished simply because they are small or minor or that the cost of prosecuting anyone who commited them will be huge. I just did not put my position on the choice between persuing justice at all costs and avoiding the wastefullness that is there in doing so in the interests of justice. But had I thought of taking a position between the two sides I would have sang the same song as I hereby do agree with you that we should punish anyone for any act of misconduct or criminality irrespective of the size or proportion of the act versus the prosecurion costs.</p>
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		<title>By: kenneth</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-20958</link>
		<dc:creator>kenneth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 18:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-20958</guid>
		<description>this is very interesting considering that walter basson, eugene terreblach, magnus malan, the world&#039;s worse mas murderers are out some never went to jail and no body complains about them. what is it that shaik has done worse than the the guys mentioned above, obviously with white justice they are free and according to some experts no cloud hanging over anyone of them. interesting though that even patricia a grduate from kill the... kill the...  she see no cloud on walter , malan and many more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is very interesting considering that walter basson, eugene terreblach, magnus malan, the world&#8217;s worse mas murderers are out some never went to jail and no body complains about them. what is it that shaik has done worse than the the guys mentioned above, obviously with white justice they are free and according to some experts no cloud hanging over anyone of them. interesting though that even patricia a grduate from kill the&#8230; kill the&#8230;  she see no cloud on walter , malan and many more.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-20784</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-20784</guid>
		<description>mayimele says:
October 22, 2009 at 17:03 pm

&quot;You are raising an unpopular yet important point of the economies of scale Maggs&quot;.

My concern is not so much the cost of dealing with the corruption and criminality but that we are being lied to as a matter of course - worse still the adverse impact on the developmental state and the NDR is profound.

Add to that the revelations (in the Zuma and Selebi matters) that phones are being bugged for reasons other than national security and that these agencies are using/releasing information in ways that it hardly could have been intended by the powers that they have.

I hasten to add that I am happy for both Zuma and Selebi that the information has come to light and casts a vastly different picture on their matters than the NPA would have had us believe.

However where, when, how does this stop?

Are we heading back to the days of the Security Branch and BOSS!

I cannot for a moment accept that this is what was intended by our constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mayimele says:<br />
October 22, 2009 at 17:03 pm</p>
<p>&#8220;You are raising an unpopular yet important point of the economies of scale Maggs&#8221;.</p>
<p>My concern is not so much the cost of dealing with the corruption and criminality but that we are being lied to as a matter of course &#8211; worse still the adverse impact on the developmental state and the NDR is profound.</p>
<p>Add to that the revelations (in the Zuma and Selebi matters) that phones are being bugged for reasons other than national security and that these agencies are using/releasing information in ways that it hardly could have been intended by the powers that they have.</p>
<p>I hasten to add that I am happy for both Zuma and Selebi that the information has come to light and casts a vastly different picture on their matters than the NPA would have had us believe.</p>
<p>However where, when, how does this stop?</p>
<p>Are we heading back to the days of the Security Branch and BOSS!</p>
<p>I cannot for a moment accept that this is what was intended by our constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Atkins</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-20776</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Atkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-20776</guid>
		<description>Mayimele,

While ANY government expenditure needs to be looked at in terms of wastefulness, think about the logical implications of what you are saying.

Let&#039;s just say that all of these little acts of  corruption were not followed up.  And think about the fact that every official in every municpality and government department knew this.  How much more corruption would there be?  What would the cos be then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mayimele,</p>
<p>While ANY government expenditure needs to be looked at in terms of wastefulness, think about the logical implications of what you are saying.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s just say that all of these little acts of  corruption were not followed up.  And think about the fact that every official in every municpality and government department knew this.  How much more corruption would there be?  What would the cos be then?</p>
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		<title>By: mayimele</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-20774</link>
		<dc:creator>mayimele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-20774</guid>
		<description>@Maggs 21, 2009 at 13:07 pm

You are raising an unpopular yet important point of the economies of scale Maggs. Indeed if you look at the millions of tax payers money that is spent on pursuing justice where it is broken by a mere theft of R3000 through prosecution, investigations and commissions of enquiry, it is too much and somehow wasteful in a country where millions of poor people are houseless and often go to bed with empty stomach. It is just unfortunate that in pursuance of justice where documented law is broken, the cost of prosecution, it seems, is not looked at versus the cost in monitory value of the act through which the law was broken but rather versus the cost (as in consequences) of ignoring such an act through which the law was broken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Maggs 21, 2009 at 13:07 pm</p>
<p>You are raising an unpopular yet important point of the economies of scale Maggs. Indeed if you look at the millions of tax payers money that is spent on pursuing justice where it is broken by a mere theft of R3000 through prosecution, investigations and commissions of enquiry, it is too much and somehow wasteful in a country where millions of poor people are houseless and often go to bed with empty stomach. It is just unfortunate that in pursuance of justice where documented law is broken, the cost of prosecution, it seems, is not looked at versus the cost in monitory value of the act through which the law was broken but rather versus the cost (as in consequences) of ignoring such an act through which the law was broken.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggs Naidu</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-20744</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggs Naidu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 07:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-20744</guid>
		<description>mayimele says:
October 21, 2009 at 15:30 pm

This statement can be synonymous with that of the former premier of Mpumalanga the province that came to be known as “Mamparalanga” during his reign that `politicians were allowed to lie’.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems that &quot;Lies&quot; Mahlangu was articulating an unspoken national standard.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/editorials/article161236.ece

It seems that the line between bad governance and rotten criminality is becoming very blurred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mayimele says:<br />
October 21, 2009 at 15:30 pm</p>
<p>This statement can be synonymous with that of the former premier of Mpumalanga the province that came to be known as “Mamparalanga” during his reign that `politicians were allowed to lie’.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
It seems that &#8220;Lies&#8221; Mahlangu was articulating an unspoken national standard.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/editorials/article161236.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/editorials/article161236.ece</a></p>
<p>It seems that the line between bad governance and rotten criminality is becoming very blurred.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Atkins</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/shaik-pardon-unwise-but-not-illegal/#comment-20731</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Atkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=1606#comment-20731</guid>
		<description>Harold,

I am not a legal practitioner, and I stand under correction regarding the TRC.  I was thinking more about the fact that it was created in terms of legislation of general application, and followed formalised criteria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harold,</p>
<p>I am not a legal practitioner, and I stand under correction regarding the TRC.  I was thinking more about the fact that it was created in terms of legislation of general application, and followed formalised criteria.</p>
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