Constitutional Hill

The curious case of the pastor punished for honesty

“Prejudice,” warned former Chief Justice Sandile Ngcobo in the judgment of Hoffmann v South African Airways, “can never justify unfair discrimination”. This means that a church can never justify discrimination against a gay or lesbian minister, pastor or priest, because it wanted to protect itself against the homophobic prejudices of its congregants. But this seems to be exactly what South Africa’s Methodist Church did when it fired Reverend Ecclesia de Lange after she announced to her congregation that she was going to marry her same sex life partner.

When the reverend Ecclesia de Lange announced to the congregation of the Brackenfell and Windsor Park Methodist congregations (where she was serving as its minister) that she was going to marry her girlfriend (with whom she was already sharing the official church manse), she was under the impression that the move would be welcomed by the church – in the same manner that it was generally welcomed by her congregants.

Instead of the Methodist Church leadership welcoming her move to stop living together without being married, the leadership suspended reverend De Lange and charged her with breach of the church’s policies when she announced her pending same sex union to the congregation.

Interestingly, she was not charged because she was living with her same-sex partner in the manse. Neither was she charged for entering a same sex marriage. Instead she was charged with announcing her intention to enter into such a marriage on the basis that this pre-empted the outcome of a continuing debate inside the Methodist Church about whether the church should endorse equal marriage rights for all.

In other words, the church was upset by the fact that she wanted to formalise her same sex relationship and that she was honest about this relationship with the members of her congregation. If she had been dishonest and had not announced her impending marriage to the congregation, she might never have been disciplined. This suggests that the Methodist Church was deeply hypocritical and essentially punished its ministers for being honest about their same sex relationships. And there I was, thinking that churches usually insisted on honesty and truth, not on deceit and subterfuge; that they insisted that people who love each other get married rather than live together without getting married.

The reverend De Lange was found guilty and it was recommended that she remained suspended until such time as the church made a binding decision about its position on ministers in same sex unions. On appeal, the original guilty verdict was confirmed and her ministry of the Methodist Church of Southern Africa was discontinued. In other words, she was fired because she was honest enough to announce her wedding to her congregation.

Rule 11.3 of the Methodist Church’s Disciplinary Code states that a minister can be disciplined because of issues relating to his or her character, doctrinal beliefs, fitness for the work of the ministry, or the observance of the Laws and Discipline of the Church. The charges against the Reverend De Lange related to her alleged failure to “observe and implement the Laws and Discipline and all other policies, other policies and decisions, practices and usages of the Church”.

Here is the catch: she was found guilty of breaching the church’s policy and more specifically the provisions of Year Book 2008 2.5.1(vi). The 2008 Year Book paragraph 2.5.1 (vi), captures the official version of the Methodist Church regarding same sex marriage at the time when reverend De Lange was fired:

Conference recognises that any decision and subsequent action on the issue of civil unions between same sex partners must await the outcome of the on-going process of engagement as specified by Conference 2005 and, in the interim, expects Methodist Ministers to continue to offer pastoral care to homosexual individuals.

In other words, she was found guilty of breaching a rule which stated that the church explicitly declined to take a position regarding same sex marriage. It is seldom that somebody is dismissed for breaching a non-existent rule – but this seems to be just such a case. This week she challenged the unfair disciplinary process and the unfair discrimination by the church against her in the Cape High Court. (Full disclosure: my sister, Anna-Marie de Vos, SC, argued her case and I informally advised the legal team.)

One aspect of the case raised before the High Court, was the argument that by firing Ecclesia de Lange because she had announced her marriage to the congregation, the Methodist Church had unfairly discriminated against her in contravention of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act (PEPUDA). Section 13 of the PEPUDA requires the complainant to make out a prima facie case of discrimination. Once she has done so, the onus shifts to the respondent who must prove that the discrimination was not unfair.

In this instance, the Methodist Church itself had admitted that it had discriminated against Ecclesia de Lange. Its defence was, in effect, that it was justified to do so (and that the discrimination as therefore fair) because the church was merely enforcing the laws and discipline of the church.

Section 14 of PEPUDA lists a whole host of factors that might be relevant when a court had to consider whether the church had disposed of its onus. Two of these factors are of particular relevance in this case. First, the church could show “the discrimination reasonably and justifiably differentiates between persons according to objectively determinable criteria, intrinsic to the activity concerned”. Second, the church could prove that the discrimination had a legitimate purpose and that it actually achieved its purpose. If the church could prove the latter the court would weigh these considerations up against the seriousness of the infringement of the human dignity of the person against whom the church discriminated to decide whether the discrimination as fair or unfair.

Given the guarantee of freedom of religion contained in the Constitution, it could be argued that where a religious denomination had formally adopted a view, based on its own “definitive” interpretation of scripture, that it was a God-mandated requirement for a church to deny some people their human dignity and to discriminate against them because of one of more of their personal attributes or characteristics like race, sex, gender or sexual orientation, this would be found to justify the discrimination.

Such a church could then say that it was an inherent requirement of the job of a minister of that church to be white, to be a man, to be unmarried, to be married to a member of the opposite sex or to lie about being married to a member of the same sex. The purpose of the resulting discrimination could then be said to be the enforcement of the pre-announced, clearly defined, policies of the church, based not on the personal prejudices of the bishops or other church leaders, nor on the prejudices of the members of the church, but on the specific interpretation of the scripture as adopted by the official church bodies.

This would mean that where the highest decision making body of a church had decided (as the Dutch Reformed Church did many years ago) that Apartheid was biblically founded and then invoked specific verses from the Bible to justify this view, that church would (arguably – but I am not sure about this point) be able to convince a court that its requirement that only white men could become dominees in that church constituted fair (instead of unfair) discrimination.

Similarly, a church that had invoked specific Bible verses and had decided that gay men and lesbians deserved to be discriminated against and to have their human dignity affronted, may (arguably) be able to convince a court that its discrimination against gays and lesbians who wished to join the church or wished to get married was fair and therefore legally permissible.

But at the time of Ecclesia’s dismissal the Methodist Church had explicitly decided not to decide whether the scripture (as interpreted by its highest decision making body) would approve of same sex marriage. It would therefore be impossible for it to prove that its discrimination against Ecclesia de Lange was fair and hence legally justified. It could not be said to be an inherent requirement of the job that ministers in the Methodist Church involved in same sex relationships were required to keep such relationships secret. Nor was it an inherent requirement of the job that Ministers of that Church were required to lie about their marital status. The church had not adopted an official policy, backed up by reference to the relevant scriptures, so it had not way of proving that it was advancing the religious doctrine of the church when it discriminated against Ecclesia.

How could it be intrinsic to the activity of being a minister in the Methodist Church not to be married to your same sex life partner, if the church itself had not made any decision about its position on same-sex marriage? It cannot be intrinsic to the activity of being a minister always to act in a way that conforms to the expectations – not explicitly based on religious scripture – of some of the members (or even some of the leadership) of the church. To hold otherwise would hold a minister hostage to the prejudices, fears, fleeting obsessions and predilections of individual leaders of the church that were unrelated to the official interpretation by the church of those scriptures it based its teaching on – even when this will have the effect of discriminating against the minister based on one or more protected grounds.

  • Jack

    Leviticus is quite clear on homosexuality –

    13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    So dear gay bashers, why not practice the scripture fully – or does your faith fail you?

    Why not rather have a better bible; a simple and short one – “don’t be a dick”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Prejudice,” warned former Chief Justice Sandile Ngcobo in the judgment of Hoffmann v South African Airways, “can never justify unfair discrimination”.

    However – PREJUDICE can justify FAIR DISCRIMINATION!

    And please do not ever tell the truth.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-05-21-anc-da-bbc-report-on-white-south-africans-distorts-truth

    “The report, which appears as a video and written article on the broadcaster’s website, claims only certain white South Africans have a future in the country. “The people who are suffering now are the weakest and most vulnerable members of the white community,” it reads.”

    But not so says the ANC, the DA and the army of well-to-do White liberals, it is all “distortion of the truth”, most of them living happily in Cape Town. Listen, us rich Whites eat for the poor Whites as our rich Black brothers eat for the poor Blacks. That is how our “nonracial” democracy works!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Do white people have a future in South Africa?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22554709

  • Gwebecimele

    Unfortunately no legal template will resolve this one. What if members of this particular church decide to walk away? Did we expect the members/leaders to peep thru windows and find out what was happening at church house? Or because they did not act then, they should ignore the wedding announcement or wait until the church decides?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    And then the shameless, bold faced lies.

    “South Africa has never been in a situation where whites have been singled out and persecuted,” said ANC spokesperson Keith Khoza.

    So one wonders who was singing “kill the Boer”, or who issued this statement just the other day:

    “It is evident that the ANC led provinces and the national government are continuing to prioritise transformative and affirmative programmes with a view to address the injustices of past. In this regard, a number of instruments including charters have been developed with the intention to accelerate the pace of implementation of transformation and equity. The ANC government has further, in many platforms, called for the creation of partnerships between all societal players particularly the private sector, government and labour, for a social compact that would see the progressive redress of the sins of the past whilst building an inclusive and growing economy. The same cannot be said for the provincial government of the Western Cape that is largely led by white males.”

    http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=10192

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozone

    I am disappointed and frankly angry that, after what you have taught us about all whites living in the gutter, you now post a piece saying that whites “run the economy [and] have a disproportionate amount of influence in politics and the media [and] still have the best houses and most of the best jobs.”

    I am sure this is news to the 950,000 whites living in their own filth at the bottom of abandoned coals shafts near Witbank!

    Thanks.

  • Pingback: SA Lesbian minister has her day in court | O-blog-dee-o-blog-da

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    Its a shame that some people think the Bible ought to replace the South African Constitution. If that is the case you ought to shut down the restaurant on the corner that serves PIG meat and prawns!

    Lest we gorget that the Bible was also used to justify apartheid and slavery!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    @mfd

    “after what you have taught us about all whites living in the gutter, you now post a piece saying that whites “run the economy [and] have a disproportionate amount of influence in politics and the media [and] still have the best houses and most of the best jobs.””

    Yes – that is the popular perception mfd and I have posted facts that contradict that assertion time and again how – how about this graph on the same article:

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67703000/gif/_67703586_size_of_income_304.gif

    Again indicating “white” share of income in 2008 below 50% already.

    Now read the following UCT article- :

    “South Africa’s black middle class has more than doubled over the past eight years, growing 250%: from 1.7 million South Africans in 2004 to an estimated 4.2 million last year.”

    “In contrast, the white middle class has remained fairly stagnant over the same period, with its adult population growing from 2.8 million in 2004 to 3 million in 2012.”

    According to UCT stat and simple maths 4.2 /(4.2+3) = 58% ie close to sixty percent of the wealth in South Africa is now controlled by Black people. This fact is simply not mentioned in that article – nor does it mention the institutionalised and government sanctioned racial discrimination against whites when it comes to competing for jobs, much like blacks where excluded from job opportunities in South Africa during Apartheid. Rather the article seems to imply that the rising unemployment and poverty amongst whites is an entirely organic phenomena.

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    Why Pierre do you allow comments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand – we call them TROLLS here in the USA. Hopefully you will direct those people to more appropro venues…. taking over the topic with unrelated subject matter is not kewl or am I missing something?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Melanie Nathan
    May 23, 2013 at 0:25 am

    Hi Melanie.

    Where are all bored to death with Pierre’s obsession, ranting and raving about “human rights” as being defined almost exclusively as the rights of homosexual people to get married. Some of use – especially racist heterosexual white people like me are much more worried about the future of our kids (irrespective of their sexual orientation) and if our kids would someday be granted a fair chance to go to university and or to get a job.

    And no amount of pinkwashing is going to change that.

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    HI Ozoneblue, yes you – who unlike me is afraid reveal his/her real name but spews his guts anyway…..

    Well I dont know about Pierre’s obsession – as you call it- and quite frankly I could not give a damn about your characterization of his blogging- I don’t know Pierre – but I will say this as a fellow HUMAN RIGHTS blogger – this is HIS BLOG -and he can write what the hell he wants to write about and you dont have to visit it if yu don’ like it. My point is – this story has everything to do with same-sex equality and discrimination – and so do you want him to make the story and the facts go away? Abra Cadabera? He is reporting the facts of a case that happens to be before the Courts and you are spewing some unrelated crap based on his other posts? about something unrelated to this?

    I have reported the same story on my BLOG too, – so if you cant discuss the topic at hand and you wanna yell at Pierre about his obsession as you call it – do it on the relevant posts – or start your own friggin BLOG!

    If you are worried that your kids dont have a future for whatever reason start your own BLOG and talk about it.

    As for same-sex marriage. Because of people like you self described heterosexual white racist homophobes, people like Ecclesia are losing their jobs in a country that purports t have equality. She has the courage like a David to Goliath to take this mega church to court, – people like me are worried about the violence to LGBT black people in SA and loss of LGBT jobs because people like you have no respect for your Constitution. If you did you would honor her fight and keep to topic instead of attacking Pierre for reporting and analyzing th is important story. He has filled in the blans for me and my readers for which I am most grateful

    That aint PINKWSHING buddy!

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    By the way – Pierre thank you for the excellent article. Not bored at all. found helpful and enabled me to enhance my post without having to read through the arguments which I have only just received.

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Jack
    May 22, 2013 at 22:05 pm

    Hey Hi Jack

    “Why not rather have a better bible; a simple and short one – “don’t be a dick””

    Don’t be cocky!

  • Brett Nortje – It is true: The ANC turns from one cluster to another!

    Yawn!

  • Mau

    @ Melanie Nathan

    Now that you’ve done your advertising, please leave if you dont want to participate nicely.. Anyone that does not see the enormous value brought by the lively and sometimes informed debate brought by our beloved Pierre that is doing such great work albeit that he is somewhat hypocritical when it comes to skin colour in not seeing that what was done by his tribe to others is now being revenged in the name of redistribution that has only one eventual outcome: More racism from all sides.

  • Brett Nortje – It is true: The ANC turns from one cluster to another!

    Malanie, do you think Ecclesia knew the rules of the club before she joined?

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Melanie Nathan
    May 22, 2013 at 23:54 pm

    Hey Melanie,

    “Lest we [forget] that the Bible was also used to justify apartheid and slavery!”

    You must be new around here – Dworky will organise a welcoming party at Milpark Holiday Inn. Bring guests, gifts and money.

    Anyway – be aware that Brett kindly taught us all the APARTHEID was UNCHRISTIAN!

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    p.s. @Ozoneblue “– or start your own friggin BLOG!”

    hehehehe – see http://www.ozoneblue.co.za

  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Melanie Nathan
    May 23, 2013 at 5:57 am

    Melanie,

    I bet you don’t know CARDINAL NAPIER!

    He would have been POPE, but as the Vatican learned from APARTHEID, Black people are only good for cleaning the churches.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Melanie Nathan
    May 23, 2013 at 5:57 am

    “That aint PINKWSHING buddy!”

    Lol. But he sure as well PINKwashed Worker’s Day.

    It used to be RED.

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/why-private-businesses-cannot-discriminate-against-gays-and-lesbians/

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Hey Melanie.

    How is this for PREJUDICE?

    “The fact that some whites were too lazy or stupid to get rich during the days when affirmative action only benefited white people, is of course irrelevant for this argument.”

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/where-are-you-going-to-stand-my-fellow-white-south-africans/

    Do you also hate the vener growing population of White trash. Or you just hate poor people in general and wish them away by totally ignoring them. Your little problem is much more important than the vast majority op “patriarchal”, heterosexuals, white [whenever possible] men?

  • Ecclesia

    Dankie Pierre – Baie duidelik uiteengesit

  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    As Justice Cameron said in the speech referred to above:

    The Court’s jurisprudence on the equality of gays and lesbians has, therefore, both addressed social and legal equality, and sought to rectify the subordination of the past by enabling gays and lesbians to assert themselves as equal moral citizens who can fulfill their capacities as humans without shame. Dignity thus enables not conformity, but rather the advancement of those aspects of our lives that have the potential to be distinct and extraordinary: traversing public spaces fearlessly, developing our minds and speaking freely, and perhaps finding love and generativity

    http://socialchangenyu.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/37-1-oregan.pdf

  • anton kleinschmidt

    In every large business a culture
    That you sign into when you join up
    If those limits beyond which you venture
    Why surprised if you’re told to shut up

    Such line it is crossed at ones peril
    Ask any sad corporate drone
    So take care to use the right channel
    Or be left in the cold on your own

    Is this about gender of lover
    Or actions behind the closed door
    Or is it a challenge more subtle
    A gauntlet thrown down on the floor

    So beware the agenda of others
    And never become a cats paw
    On one side there is raw emotion
    Is it really concerned with the law

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Melanie

    “do it on the relevant posts – or start your own friggin BLOG!”

    Melanie is right. In Slovenia, if you wish to say something not directly related to the topic at hand, your comment is automatically channeled into what we know as a “SATELLITE” blog!

    Thanks.

  • Mau

    I trust this is considered topical..

    Zuma: Don’t Sign the Secrecy Bill!

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/zumas_secret_loc/?bYaihab&v=25023

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Anton

    Anton, do you know our constitutional text?
    Have you read the law of the church?
    If not, I humbly suggest –
    Shut up and do your research!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 23, 2013 at 9:43 am

    Since you whitish slovenians types are hijacking this thread again – do you think racially discriminatory AA and EE and BEE could be seen as “legislation”?

    “Don’t be surprised if you see poor whites; poverty is no longer legislated.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-05-22-sorry-bbc-its-blacks-who-have-no-future-in-south-africa

    You see that White trash – they are simply lazy and/or stupid that is why their chances to find employment is so extraordinarily low.

    OH – and did you know the “Freedom Charter” is the basis for the new South Africa? LOL I mean – the CRT/pinkwashed version of the Freedom Charter as understood by White liberal?

  • Gwebecimele

    Dworky

    Please move Melanie’s comment to the complaints section.

  • anton kleinschmidt

    @mdf

    So, Constitution come what may
    Activism rules OK
    But when that all is said and done
    There is the Priest; her job is gone
    That was my point
    What was yours

  • Gwebecimele

    Will the female MP’s take advice from the Mpumalanga MEC??

    http://www.thenewage.co.za/96700-1007-53-Parliament_to_debate_initiate_deaths_ANC

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    May 23, 2013 at 11:32 am

    Hi gwebs.

    I sure we can look forward to “Zero tolerance on ‘initiations’” and the Human Rights Commission to get involved.

    http://www.citypress.co.za/citypress-says/zero-tolerance-on-initiations-20120211/

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    And the BEST and FUNNIEST of all – Whites have during just 15 years of “liberation” miraculously all morphed into geniuses and “entrepreneurs”.

    “Following the transition, 75% of whites in the country had a matric qualification and just 10% had any higher education. But by 2012, almost all white children were passing matric while 60% of those aged 20 to 24 were enrolled for higher education.”

    Nothing to do with academic standards that dropped like a fucking lead balloon LOL.

    But ALLAS you cannot forever bullshit everybody, not even yourself.

    “Here it must be explained that the key driver of such continued inequality is not white wealth but, rather, abysmal education and labour-market outcomes for black South Africans.”

    http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/whither-the-whites/

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Anton

    It seems to please ya
    That they fired Eclesia
    But go read the Jockey Club cases
    (Stories strange from days at the races)
    You’ll learn that even a private society
    Is bound by all the rules of propriety
    If you ask: what’s with the cry of hue and the fuss?
    I tell you: we’re all bound by laws of nature just!

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    Well I tweeted Pierre and asked why he does not moderate the Troll comments – i.e. the ones that fail to discuss the topic. He said because he gets too many comments and it would take too much time. Thats too bad. I monitor my comments on my BLOG and if it is off topic, it goes to trash! Of course if there is some relationship to the post it is maintained – like an analogy or something like that.

    What some do not realize is that t is really rude to go off the topic and this analysis is so well done that one wants to read what people have to say about it. Not what people think of Pierre in relation to his general bogging, his general opinions conveyed via someone’s chipped shoulder. It derogates for the blog.

    I am the last one to look at any of the the links that commentators have placed here that have nothing to do with this piece . Thats not why I commented here nor why I came here. So why would I read that – it is of no interest to me – so please stop wasting your time. I know it makes you feel good – but I am not linking to reading it – and I doubt anyone else interested in Ecclesia’s case is either.

    Have some manners and stop trolling.

  • Maggs Naidu – If WHITE people weren’t sinful, Jesus wouldn’t have died! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Melanie Nathan
    May 23, 2013 at 16:44 pm

    Er, ummm, eish Melanie,

    “What some do not realize is that t is really rude to go off the topic”

    More than one (including the last) has been “off the topic”!

    Do you have a mirror?

    Or a granny?

  • Maggs Naidu – If WHITE people weren’t sinful, Jesus wouldn’t have died! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 23, 2013 at 16:28 pm

    Dworky,

    Wash your hands – you’ve been playing with a fucking turd!

  • Maggs Naidu – If WHITE people weren’t sinful, Jesus wouldn’t have died! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Maggs Naidu – If WHITE people weren’t sinful, Jesus wouldn’t have died! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 23, 2013 at 16:53 pm

    Melanie Nathan
    May 23, 2013 at 16:44 pm

    Er, ummm, eish Melanie,

    “What some do not realize is that t is really rude to go off the topic”

    More than one of your comments (including the last) has been “off the topic”!

    Do you have a mirror?

    Or a granny?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Melanie Nathan
    May 23, 2013 at 16:44 pm

    “What some do not realize is that t is really rude to go off the topic and this analysis is so well done that one wants to read what people have to say about it.”

    Sillly me. I thought the topic was prejudice, discrimination and “human rights”. Are you saying those White trash gay/lesbian Whites – they are more worried about getting married in the NG kerk than surviving unemployment and squatter camp conditions?

  • anton kleinschmidt

    @mdf

    The loss of employment…
    Outrageous!!!
    Now do you get my point

  • Brett Nortje – It is true: The ANC turns from one cluster to another!

    Malanie, do you think Ecclesia knew the rules of the game before she joined one of the clubs?

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    From the latest Liberator Online newsletter:

    OBAMA WORST PRESIDENT EVER FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES: “From unilateral military actions to warrantless surveillance… the painful fact is that Barack Obama is the president that Nixon always wanted to be. Four decades ago, Nixon was halted in his determined effort to create an “imperial presidency” with unilateral powers and privileges. In 2013, Obama wields those very same powers openly and without serious opposition. The success of Obama in acquiring the long-denied powers of Nixon is one of his most remarkable, if ignoble, accomplishments. … Obama has not only openly asserted powers that were the grounds for Nixon’s impeachment, but he has made many love him for it. More than any figure in history, Obama has been a disaster for the U.S. civil liberties movement.” — liberal constitutional lawyer Jonathan Turley, “Nixon has won Watergate,” column in USA Today, March 25, 2013.

    And

    QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES: “It was just revealed that the Department of Justice secretly recorded the phone calls of AP journalists for two months. Obama promised reporters that the incident will be immediately investigated — by the Department of Justice.” — Jimmy Fallon, “Late Night With Jimmy Fallon.” May 14, 2013.

  • Lisbeth

    anton kleinschmidt
    May 23, 2013 at 9:40 am

    Very impressive, Anton. Full marks for improvement and progress.

  • Maggs Naidu – If WHITE people weren’t sinful, Jesus wouldn’t have died! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – It is true: The ANC turns Brett into a DUFUS!
    May 23, 2013 at 19:55 pm

    Hey Brett

    “Malanie, do you think Ecclesia knew the rules of the game before she joined one of the clubs?”

    Malanie?? Are you trying to turn Melanie into a Breoderbonder?

    Of course Ecclesia knew the rules of the game.

    It’s all defined in Chapter 2 of Act 108 of 1996!

  • beetle

    Melanie re the TROLLS:
    You may have heard it debated – that if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
    On a more cererebral note, consider the Anthropic theory- that observations of the physical universe must be compatible with the conscious life that observes it.
    In a nutshell it can be said that observers are neccessary to bring the universe into being. It could also be rephrased – that God needs people in orderto be worshipped and therefore to have an existence.
    So also, with both you and Pierre, my dear. Without TROLLS there is no one to hear or read your blog.
    You think we are trash?
    Maybe we are just a reflection on the quality of this blog.

  • Maggs Naidu – If WHITE people weren’t sinful, Jesus wouldn’t have died! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    beetle
    May 23, 2013 at 20:35 pm

    Beetle,

    That Melanie has not seen fit to comment on the essence of the blog (almost anyway) but to post non-blog related comments about non-blog-related comments, should not be held against her.

    Melanie is an anti-troll, troll! :P

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    I have a love-hate relationship with De Vos – I love to hate him.

    I admire the way he stands for something and then puts himself out there and lets us take our shots.

    Malanie should be about her business – anyone heard of her before?

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Maggs Naidu – If WHITE people weren’t sinful, Jesus wouldn’t have died! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    May 23, 2013 at 20:23 pm

    Then why, my dear Maggs, is she picking up the ball to run with it when everyone alse dribbles it and passes?

  • Gwebecimele

    The CC judgement on magistrates salaries is welcomed. Now they must earn what we pay them and deliver real justice to the nation.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!
    May 23, 2013 at 21:08 pm

    “Malanie should be about her business – anyone heard of her before?”

    I guess she is another self-obsessed, reactionary, middle class White liberal – my favourite USA import besides KFC, Coca-Cola, Harvard educated “constitutional experts” and genital herpes.

    “But the past several weeks have seen a concerted effort by sections of the Democratic Party political establishment and its supporters to seize on the killing of Martin to promote the reactionary politics of racial identity. Toward this end, these forces have put forward a grossly distorted picture of American society, politics and history—one in which race, and not class, is the central issue.

    Jesse Jackson, for example, writes in a recent comment in the Guardian, “Racial profiling is all too common in the US, and has led to the killing of a young man.” He compares the killing of Martin to that of Emmett Till, brutally murdered by racists in Jim Crow Mississippi in 1955.

    Not only is race the basic issue in the killing of Martin, Jackson insists, it is the basic issue in American society.

    The same line is put forward, if anything more crudely and hysterically, by “left” outfits like the International Socialist Organization, one of many middle-class groups for whom race is a virtual obsession. The ISO’s Sherry Wolf, in a report on protests in Sanford, quotes uncritically the statements of Jackson, NAACP President Ben Jealous and Al Sharpton. An ISO table set up at a demonstration, she notes, called for an end to the “new Jim Crow,” a phrase included in virtually all of the articles on the Martin killing posted on the ISO’s web site.

    An earlier editorial from the ISO concludes by stating that it is necessary to “put the struggle against racism at the center of all our efforts to win change,” while another insists that “every inch of US society is propped up by institutions that are racist and discriminatory to the core.”

    What is necessary is a “new civil rights movement,” the ISO insists—meaning a race-based movement subordinated to the likes of Jesse Jackson and Sharpton, and, therefore, the Democratic Party and the Obama administration.

    It is noteworthy that in all of the statements of the ISO on the matter, there is virtually no mention of the immense suffering of tens of millions of working people and youth of all races in the US, not to mention the rest of the world. These people are indifferent to the actual plight of working people.

    Their attempts to present racism as the “core” of American society are false and reactionary. Racial inequalities exist and racism is promoted by sections of the ruling class. However, this is one particular expression of the fundamental division in society: class. Indeed, the most horrific levels of poverty and unemployment for black workers are to be found in cities overseen by black mayors, politicians, police chiefs and businessmen.”

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/04/pers-a05.html

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Hey melanie.

    Would you say this is also totally OFF TOPIC, rude and simply doesn’t interest you. Just like any mention by the BBC of the every growing numbers of White trash in South Africa, and what sort of “future” they may be looking forward to is such a universal source of irritation to the privileged.

    US Supreme Court hears arguments on gay marriage

    “Having said that, claims that recognition of same-sex marriage signifies a new flowering of democratic rights—summed up in the media refrain that gay marriage is the civil rights movement of today—lack any credibility. The shift of large sections of the political and media establishment behind this issue coincides with an unprecedented assault on democratic rights and the erection of the legal scaffolding of a police state.

    The embrace of gay marriage by the Obama administration, large sections of the Democratic Party and a growing number of Republicans underscores the degree to which identity and lifestyle politics in its various forms—race, gender, sexual orientation—has become a vital element of bourgeois politics.

    It is a mechanism for diverting attention from the assault on democratic rights, the expansion of war and militarism, the growth of poverty and the widening chasm between rich and poor. It is being promoted as a means of defusing social opposition, particularly among liberal and “left” sections of the upper-middle class that are fixated on identity politics while prepared to go along with war, mass poverty and brazen violations of democratic rights such as drone assassinations and indefinite military detention.”

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/30/cour-m30.html

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    Ozoneblue – we can talk when you reveal your true identity – until then I dont give a rats backside about what you have to say! If you are shy here – write me – you can find my email all over my BLOG.

  • terence grant

    The church has always told us that sex is for procreation; that it is wrong to fornicate or to masturbate and that it is incumbent on us to resist the temptation to satisfy our appetites/lusts. Consequently, there is nothing remotely discriminatory about the churches opposition to homosexuality, which is always fornication/recreational sex. Indeed, we have as much right to frown on homosexuality and speak out against it as we do to frown on gluttony and people who consume too much alcohol etc. A failure to do so would invite our appetites to multiply and get the better of us. (I am an agnostic and a fornicator of note but cannot help seeing that there is indeed some virtue in encouraging us to resist our animal urges.)

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    There are two million AIDS orphans in this country who wish at least one of their parents resisted the urge to fornicate.

  • Maggs Naidu – Brett is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – Brett’s an illicit fart!
    May 23, 2013 at 21:12 pm

    Hey Brett,

    “Then why, my dear Maggs, is she picking up the ball to run with it when everyone alse dribbles it and passes?”

    “alse”, “Malanie” – eish what have you done with our Brett!

    p.s. You’re speaking in circles – now you sound more confused than Mac Maharaj.

    What are you trying to say?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    “The church has always told us that sex is for procreation”

    Terence is right. That is why the church has always insisted that post-menopausal couples keep to their own sides of the bed!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 24, 2013 at 5:22 am

    Terence,

    “Consequently, there is nothing remotely discriminatory about the churches opposition to homosexuality, which is always fornication/recreational sex.”

    That’s a load of kak.

    Read our Constitution.

    These okes who preach this kak can FUCK OFF to really backward countries like the USA and Uganda.

    In sunny SA they MUST follow our Constitution!

  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 3:30 am

    Hey Melanie,

    “I dont give a rats backside about what you have to say!”

    The cynics among us (Dworky, Brett, Prof MO, Dr Mouse, Lisbeth, Julius Malema …) will suggest you do “give a [rat's] backside” about what Ozone Guy has to say.

    Of course they will be wrong because the non-cynics among us Dworky, Brett, Prof MO, Dr Mouse, Lisbeth, Julius Malema …) know that you spent most of your energy on Ozone Guy because, well, because!

    They will also know that most of your comments are related to non-blog related issues because god appointed you blog monitor – I know this because a prophet appeared in my dreams last night and said so (just like has happened to our CJ).

  • terence grant

    Maggs Naiddoo,
    From a legal perspective the church is entitled to condemn homosexuality as long as this condemnation stems from a condemnation of all fornication/recreational sex and is hence not singling out the gay community.Besides,how does a minister protect a wife from her husbands desire for anal or oral sex if he/she is in the habit of arguing that these practises are perfectly acceptable in Gods eyes?

  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 24, 2013 at 8:47 am

    Hey Terence,

    “Besides,how does a minister protect a wife from her husbands desire for anal or oral sex if he/she is in the habit of arguing that these practises are perfectly acceptable in Gods eyes?”

    Are you drunk?

    Or mad?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 24, 2013 at 8:27 am

    “Terence is right. That is why the church has always insisted that post-menopausal couples keep to their own sides of the bed!”

    This mfd – is another popular myth that needs to be thoroughly debunked once and for all. Real sex between couples sort of diminished after a couple of months, lasting at most perhaps a year whatever their age. That is why God created wisdom and science that eventually led to the invention of phallic shaped battery operated appliances.

    Making sex and lust the basis of any happy marriage is therefore just another example of commodification and another symptom of capitalist alienation.

  • terence grant

    Maggs,why dont you engage me on the points i made instead of hurling abuse at me?Who the hell do you think you are?

  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 24, 2013 at 9:08 am

    Terence,

    “Who the hell do you think you are?”

    I think I’m the guy who thinks you are mad or drunk!

    WDYSTT?

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    My dear Maggot, you know very well I know how to spell ‘Melanie’. Or are you just trying to get me to tell the story again of how Melanie’s Afghan Pablo with a little help from Bella Dobermann beat up a Falkenburg escapee and serial rapist in her courtyard?

    See, the thing with Ecclesia is this:
    I would rather not be part of her private life. Don’t ask don’t tell suits me fine. I believe absolutely in what Brandeis said – people have the right to be let alone. I don’t want to make life more difficult for anyone who is just trying to get through the day – life is hard enough for most of us. When shit like this comes up I keep thinking of that sad old moffie I told you about hacked to pieces in his flat in Berea trying to buy affection.
    No-one should come to an end like that. Everyone has the right to a maatjie if they want. I would like to kick the shit out the kids who bullied Pierre’s maatjie till he hung himself. My friend Katherine Mary Mason hung herself so I know what it does to the survivors. The first person I knew to die of AIDS was a kid I grew up with. His mom was mine’s best friend. I realise with hindsight the little fkr was trying to groom me when he was 8 and I was 10. WHo made him sexually aware at 8? I didn’t even know what a homosexual was till we went to Veldskool and one of the kids got a boner showering with us.

    Who molested Jannie?

    The Methodist Church HAS been wishy washy on this issue like most – will we won’t we will we won’t we? I didn’t ask to be baptised Methodist – dunno how my Oupas allowed it. Kerk van die Verbondsvolk or APK – that would have been better. It burns my ass that my dad and aunt give them dayam Methodists money every week. Crazy old people. SHould be soylent green. Put this issue to a referendum in the Church and see how they vote?
    Pierrot castigates the Catholic Church for same-sex scandals but has not mentioned similar scandals in the ANglican Church or even the Methodist Church. Playing politics. That is what they’re doing.

    This issue is way too complex for you. I’m going to have to spot you many IQ points. But the bottom line is Ecclesia knew the rules of the God-game when she took up the sport. So she wants to stay in the sport: Why can’t she start her own club? There are places in Pretoria where there are two pigeon clubs in the same sports club. LOL!

    The Constitution does guarantee freedom of association, you know?

    P.s. Do you need more examples by way of sexing pigeons?

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Ozoneblue says:
    May 24, 2013 at 9:03 am

    Heard a report on the car radio a couple of years ago – most dildoes are sold to lesbians. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

    Meshugge welt!

  • Gwebecimele
  • terence grant

    maggsnaaidoo,
    the world would be a far better place if God had given you screaming queens a few brain-cells and a rudimentary education

  • Jack

    Good thing we don’t have to rely on imaginary friends – we educate ourselves

    SCREAMIIIIIIIING YAY!!!!!!!!!!

  • Jack

    LOL maggsnaaidoo you won!

    But remember the rules say it would only have been a perfect 10 only if Melanie had of first called you a nazi

  • Harold Ferwood

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 11:42 am

    Oh you can all just FUCK OFF for heaven’s sake !

    That was most likely the most truthful thing Melonie has ever said.

  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Harold Ferwood
    May 24, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Hey Hey Harold,

    Looooooooooooong time no see.

    What’s news?

  • Gwebecimele
  • Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 24, 2013 at 11:19 am

    Terence,

    “the world would be a far better place if God had given you screaming queens a few brain-cells and a rudimentary education”

    hahahaha – did I hear you say that you’re “agnostic”?

    As far as us “queens” are concerned – me and Dmwangi are getting married soon.

    Dworky is organising our wedding at Milpark Holiday Inn.

    Will you attend?

    p.s. Dmwangi thinks UBUNTU prevents him from being a homosexual – so he’s gonna be the girl.

    WDYS?

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 11:42 am

    Awwww Melanie,

    “Oh you can all just FUCK OFF for heaven’s sake !”

    Hurt your feeling did we?

    But not to worry as all of us here FUCKED OFF to India to be with 1.3 billion other coolies (as suggested by Ozone Guy) – will you join us?

    p.s. I’m sure that Pierre will miss your novel suggestions. :cry:

  • Maggs Naidu – The Lord is my saviour! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Jack
    May 24, 2013 at 11:52 am

    LOL Jack – perfect 10 next time! :P

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    May 24, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    As maggs would say the [privileged] people are angry hey. They don’t like to be confronted the truth, the White elite in particular – they don’t want to confront the crux of what Simpson really was saying.

    “It seems to me that only certain parts of the white community really have a genuine future here: the better-off, more adaptable parts.

    Working-class white people, most of them Afrikaans-speakers, are going through an intense crisis. But you will not read about it in the newspapers or see it reported on television because their plight seems to be something arising out of South Africa’s bad old past – a past which everyone, black and white, would like to forget.”

    The convergence of the interests of the elite, the privileged, black and white, those who really “control the economy” who would gladly “eat for” the other members of their “racial groups” and lets all agree just FUCK THE POOR.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Marelise van der Merwe writes a lot about gender and sexual orientation, which has led people to ask whether she is perhaps a lesbian or, worse, a feminist (at the very least, an oddball with a unibrow). However, she is regrettably unable to commit to a sexual orientation, as she does not own enough Barbra Streisand DVDs, and anyway, *she lives in Cape Town*, where homophobia is totally gay. By day she is a sub-editor at The Daily Maverick, and by night she is also a sub-editor at The Daily Maverick. This means that if you spot a spelling error on the site, it is her fault. *When she’s not obsessing over comma placement, she wires her heart to Facebook, falls asleep at parties, or makes a mean butternut soup.*”

  • Gwebecimele

    It seems as if someone is having enough grapes down in the cape

    From abusive husband to botox.

    “ANC’s government is like botox-apartheid” by Peter Marais.

  • Hoof_Hearted

    I was just taking a quick look through that Hoffman vs SAA case (yes I am bored) and it seems to me as if it was more about SAA not wanting to give young JC Hoffman a position job because he was ill…. HIV positive in fact … and not because of any sexual preference or proclivity he may have possessed at the time

    I’m confused … has evidence been discovered that homosexuality is actually some kind of disease? Could it be catchy and is that why Dwamangi has been rather scarce around these parts lately?

  • Maggs Naidu – The Lord is my saviour! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hoof_Hearted
    May 24, 2013 at 14:25 pm

    Hey Hoofy guy,

    “is that why Dwamangi has been rather scarce around these parts lately?”

    Well Dmwangi and I are getting married.

    He’s gone on advance honeymoon. By himself (he’s quite the wanker, ain’t he).

    And he will be trying out bride’s outfits while away.

    Would you like to attend our wedding?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Gwebe (quoting Marauis)

    “ANC’s government is like botox-apartheid.”

    What a pungent irony. We know exactly who is the “Botox Queen” down here – she who is making the WC into a Volkstaat, and has reportedly put out an R52 billion tender with a crooked Cairo wildlife vendor to stock the Bree River with vicious NILE CROCODILES to discourage “refugees” from the Eastern Cape from flooding the lily-white schools of Rondebosch!

    Thanks

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    May 24, 2013 at 13:59 pm

    ““ANC’s government is like botox-apartheid” by Peter Marais.”

    Thanks gwebs. Ma Waa’ val djy uit, meneer? And check how Danny Titus from the BBB sees right through the PC bullshit and this socalled “nonracial” scam. As I said more and more thinking people are opening their eyes, and the picture it just aint looking pretty.

    “The notion of race, says Mr. Dexter, “has been debunked so many times over that is actually a disgrace that people use this category other than in the sense that our Constitution and laws do, which is to seek to identify people…for the purposes of redress for the consequences of this classification.” Redress for coloured people, sir? What about the ANC’s reference to blacks in general and Africans in particular? Is that debunking your myth? Do you consider withdrawing the racial brief of the DCS?

    “Being South African in the democratic South Africa,” you say, “start with recognising that being Black, Coloured, White, or Indian is secondary to being African and South African.” Is this what your interpretation of “African in particular” is? No, because your include all the categories. *And yet, your party speaks about “blacks in general, African in particular.”*

    You also say, “there is no Black, Coloured, White or Indian ‘race'”. Waa’ val djy uit, meneer? Is this in line with your party?”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=378959&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    And perhaps the BBC should also ask – is there a future for the “Coloureds”?

    In the Labour Court case in Cape Town today ten officials of the Correctional Services Department are taking the Department to court. In cross-examination adv. Marumo Moerane SC (along with adv. Dumisa Ntsebeza SC and two others) states the following to witness André Jonkers: “I sympathize with you. (But) to address the legacy of the past…there will be people who will be unhappy.” People like the Coloured people in the Western Cape. Jonkers responded almost with desperation: “When will there be a future for me and my family? To date you have 10 posts, but not one is reserved for a coloured person. And you call that ‘equity’?”

  • Gwebecimele
  • Hoof_Hearted

    Mags I would love to attend your wedding . Who is giving Dwamangi away?

  • Hoof_Hearted

    …. oh and how long before he is hanging around barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen?

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    Are you a believer now?

    From your link:

    ‘”I preach about hope, because they tend to lose hope,” says Nel, who saw his community grow to about 1 000 registered members. “Blacks know much more of that community feeling. We have been brought up as individualists. The idea of helpmekaar has all but disappeared.”‘

    The Cartesian dogmatisms at the heart of the European project make it irredeemable. Witness the supposition underpinning every one of PdV’s posts: there is no higher sovereignty than the conscious desires of an individual’s self, and where these desires conflict with those of another, will and intensity of desire-defined strictly in bodily terms– will predominate. It’s an incredibly crass, shallow anthropological stance. Hence, the moral quality (or lack there of) of this blog and the intellectual honesty of its author, whose self-identity is of a creature of this kind. Sadly, quite pitiable.

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Maggs Naidu – The Lord is my saviour! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    May 24, 2013 at 14:31 pm

    Maggs, you’ve just made me let the dogs’ gravy boil over.

    Quickly: Is it an Indian wedding or an African wedding?

    I.o.w. can we burn him if his folks don’t cough up the dowry?

    Can we burn you if you don’t cough up the lobola?

  • Maggs Naidu – Come out of the cupboard Dmwangi, don’t be shy you’re among friends! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    May 24, 2013 at 17:16 pm

    Hello Sweetheart.

    I was wondering where you were.

    Should we invite the Hearteds to our wedding?

    Dworky thinks we can have a few more guests.

    p.s. you look gorgeous in pink lipstick and yellow high-heels!

    mwah.

    p.p.s. Ignore Brett – he’s just jealous that he has to live with OB!

  • Maggs Naidu – Come out of the cupboard Dmwangi, don’t be shy you’re among friends! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hoof_Hearted
    May 24, 2013 at 14:42 pm

    Hoofy Guy,

    “Who is giving Dwamangi away?”

    I was thinking Idi Amin – as we all know Dm loves the old dada.

    I’m just worried that uncle Idi may decide to have Dm for dinner rather than give him away.

    Suggestions welcome.

  • Maggs Naidu – Come out of the cupboard Dmwangi, don’t be shy you’re among friends! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!
    May 24, 2013 at 18:26 pm

    Brett,

    “I.o.w. can we burn him if his folks don’t cough up the dowry?” – YES!

    “Can we burn you if you don’t cough up the lobola?” – NO!

  • Chris

    Perhaps something should be cleared up right now. Maggs is the bride! (Maggs is short for Margaret).

  • Maggs Naidu – Come out of the cupboard Dmwangi, don’t be shy you’re among friends! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Chris
    May 24, 2013 at 19:17 pm

    Pah Right-Wing-Guy,

    “Maggs is the bride!”

    You’re just jealous that I got the best looking girl at the party.

    But don’t feel bad, it’s just that I don’t double-date! :P

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs, Chris, Brett et al

    Please do not waste our time with fanciful speculation about Maggs “wedding” to Dmwangi. I respectfully suggest you form a “satellite” blog devoted to CELEBRITY GOSSIP.

    And Maggs, stop bringing up Idi Amin as a prototypical African dictator. Where was the LIBERAL MEDIA and the DA when we faced white dictators like Mussolini, Bismarck and Napoleon? Hey?

  • Maggs Naidu – Come out of the cupboard Dmwangi, don’t be shy you’re among friends! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 24, 2013 at 19:47 pm

    Dworky,

    Don’t be annoyed by Chris – it’s his DNA that causes him to be disruptive.

    But leave him out of the guest list.

    Rather invite Melanie Nathan – she was just kidding when she told you to FUCK OFF.

    Idi Amin was not a “prototypical African dictator”, it was a medical condition which made him look fatter than he actually is – ok maybe he did eat up a few friends and annoying assistants, but he wasn’t actually greedy. (Dm will explain).

    The DA was busy FIGHTING APARTHEID “when we faced white dictators like Mussolini, Bismarck and Napoleon”.

    But please don’t mix politics and religion – consider what Morgan Freeman had to say.

    On Why Gay Marriage Should Be Legal: “I grew up in the South but I started dancing in my 20s when I got out of the Air Force, and studying dance, you’re surrounded by gay guys all the time. You get to know them and you have to shift gears!”

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/24/morgan-freeman-s-sleepy-interview-response-and-his-most-amazing-quotes.html?source=socialflow&account=thedailybeast&medium=facebook

  • Zulani

    Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html#slide=2475423

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    By the way I did NOT write that “FUCK OFF ” comment – so someone has ficured out how to use my name. That is disgusting. Hopefully Pierre can see the diffs in IP address and fix that . THAT IS SO disgustingly dirty. I have a feeling I know who did that. Low ball tactic – small small small…

  • Maggs Naidu – Come out of the cupboard Dmwangi, don’t be shy you’re among friends! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 21:00 pm

    Melanie,

    “By the way I did NOT write that “FUCK OFF ” comment”

    Well you should have – it’s part of initiation in these parts.

    BTW will you attend our wedding – me and Dmwangi are getting married.

    He’s a homophobe so he’s not gonna be the gay man – he’s agreed to be the girl (Chris is jealous – he also want to be the girl).

    Dworky is gonna marry us – it’s sort of like a threesome; if you attend it will be a foursome!

    p.s. Bring a large supply of designer UBUNTU as a wedding gift for DM.

  • Zulani

    Melanie Nathan

    May 24, 2013 at 21:00 pm

    By the way I did NOT write that “FUCK OFF ” comment – so someone has ficured out how to use my name. That is disgusting. Hopefully Pierre can see the diffs in IP address and fix that . THAT IS SO disgustingly dirty. I have a feeling I know who did that. Low ball tactic – small small small…

    If this is a fact, then P d V has a lot of shit on his collar.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 21:00 pm

    Melanie – its is understood that was not your comment.

  • beetle

    Dmwangi and Maggs

    Are you our new Glanspaartjie?
    Will you be in the Huisgenoot?
    Remember what Woody Allen said – Being bisexual has its advantages. You double your chances of getting a date on a Saturday night.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Dmwangi
    May 24, 2013 at 17:16 pm

    “”I preach about hope, because they tend to lose hope,” says Nel, who saw his community grow to about 1 000 registered members. “Blacks know much more of that community feeling. We have been brought up as individualists. The idea of helpmekaar has all but disappeared.”‘

    The Cartesian dogmatisms at the heart of the European project make it irredeemable. Witness the supposition underpinning every one of PdV’s posts: there is no higher sovereignty than the conscious desires of an individual’s self, and where these desires conflict with those of another, will and intensity of desire-defined strictly in bodily terms– will predominate. It’s an incredibly crass, shallow anthropological stance. Hence, the moral quality (or lack there of) of this blog and the intellectual honesty of its author, whose self-identity is of a creature of this kind. Sadly, quite pitiable.”

    You got it.

    And Africans please take note how the Afrikaners have destroyed themselves.

    “We have been brought up as individualists. The idea of helpmekaar has all but disappeared.”

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    Well let me say this – I am so disgusted by it. I sent Pierre a message to remove it.

    And I believe some talented friends who always seek to help me happened to have acquired the IP address of the transgressor – unsolicited. So now I happen to know thae name and have the add of the person who impersonated me using my name.

    This is what happens next – Stay tuned because that person’s real name, address and telephone number is going to appear on a gay dating site in a matter of hours. He is going to say he is gay and looking for his perfect man. That person is going to reveal his/her gay passion on that site – together with his name and address and phone number. Let the games begin….

    now I begged my friend s not to do this – but they are so angry that they are going to ignore my pleas. Let me say this – these friends are anonymous to me – I dont know who they are – so I cannot stop them. All I know is they love my work and when they see any transgression against me like this blatant impersonation they tend to want to teach that infractor a lesson. Sheez I wish I could stop this from happening. But I cannot. It is not me and it is not in my hands.

    If you think you think my ‘anonymous’ friends have not done this before you are wrong.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Eish Melanie – you’re not only lying, you’re sounding like a frigging moron.

  • http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Melanie Nathan

    So leaving the FORUM now – which this clearly is – lol rather than a comments section . Nice of Pierre to host such a venue for you all to initiate and wag off at each other- and now unsubscribing from comments.

    So anyone who wants to contact me or see how a blog and its comments ought to be run –

    ah yes – please feel free to look up my personal email easy to find at http://www.oblogdeeoblogda.me Cheerio – not coming back.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 23:06 pm

    Melanie, this sort of stuff happens all the time on the Internet. It is very easy to do.

    So – tbh – it don’t help to publish ‘under yourself’ in your “own name”. In fact – if you want to be true to the ideals of freedom and democracy it is better to stay anonymous.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/17/anonymous-wikileaks-protest-amazon-mastercard

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 23:24 pm

    “So anyone who wants to contact me or see how a blog and its comments ought to be run -”

    So why this dictatorship on how free speech “should be run”.

    I have a blog.

    Whenever somebody accidentally posts on there, instead of censoring them, I’m joyous – I celibate life, go on me knees and I thank our maker.

  • terence grant

    Maggsnaaidoo,why don’t you as the resident intellectual explain to me why you think it is wrong for the church to discourage recreational-sex,telling us that it is incumbent upon us to control our animal urges?Do you think that lust is something that we should give into and nurture,allowing it to define us?Suffice it to say that I sometimes masturbate but can see no earthly reason why I should be proud of giving in to my animal urges and honestly dont understand why members of the gay community are so proud of the fact that they have sex(oral and/or anal)with other men?Seems to me that what you guys are after is absolute freedom to do whatever the hell you please ,indulge in group-sex and public-sex and using hardcore pornography and drugs to enhance your hedonistic pleasures.That it therefore is incumbent on you die-hard hedonists to seek out a religion that condones hedonism instead of expecting conservative Jehova to pat you on the back everytime you get your rocks off.Naturally,I do understand that there are loads of gays who don”t do group=sex,public-sex or drugs but know as a fact that these practises are rife in the gay community.That it is indeed a highly promiscuous/permissive community…. that this hedonism has claimed via Hiv and AIDS the lives of many gays….that there is nothing remotely noble about the hedonist and his search for the perfect orgasm.Kindly enlighten me asap

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 25, 2013 at 7:00 am

    Terence – get Top-TV.

    I heard it has porn channels especially for the likes of you.

    Pervert!

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Melanie Nathan
    May 24, 2013 at 23:24 pm

    Hey Melanie,

    PISS OFF!!!

  • terence grant

    One of the many problems with the gay community is that many of its constituents are incapable of holding down an intelligent conversation and hence resort to telling their critics to piss off or to go fuck themselves,which is hardly surprising when one considers that giving oneself over to absolute pleasure a la The Rocky-Horror Picture Show leaves very little time for books and the like.I know all about the fickleness and shallowness of the gay community thanks to my late mother,Iris Shelton,who opened a gay-club(Mauds)in Prestwich Street Cape Town in the 1970 s and another(Aphrodite)in Durban in the late 1970 s before working for Des Purchase at The Wine Barrel in Cape Town.

  • Maggs Naidu – The Lord is my saviour! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    beetle
    May 24, 2013 at 22:45 pm

    Hey Beetle,

    “Remember what Woody Allen said – Being bisexual has its advantages.”

    I deny that Dmwangi is bi-sexual – he’s gonna just be a girl!

    But Brett is buy-sexual – he roams the empty streets at night (with R100 notes in his wallet).

    Anyway the objections to two heterosexual men getting married has to be declared unconstitutional.

    Why is it that only homosexual men (and women) are allowed same-sex marriages?

    God (bless his soul) appeared to me in a vision (after I undertook to give Pastor Naidoo some money that is) and said “Thou shalt marryeth Dmwangeneth or thine shall be cast to swine”.

    But god did not speak to me directly, he chose to do it through a prophet who demanded money to tell me the prophesy.

    Either the prophet was drunk or it was really god – as everyone knows whatever god says sounds like a very drunk oke.

    But I digress – do you want to come to the wedding?

  • terence grant
  • beetle

    Id love to come to the wedding.

    Ive heard that Winnie has accepted. Do you think you might get a silver teaset as a present?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Melanie

    “that person’s real name, address and telephone number is going to appear on a gay dating site in a matter of hours …”

    You don’t scare us with this foul tactic, Melanie. Stay tuned because your real name, address and telephone number is going to appear on a WHITIST dating site in a matter of hours. You are going to say you are have WHITE tendencies and looking for similar. You are going to reveal your LIBERAL passion on the site – together with your name, address and melanin count. Let the games begin….

    Thanks.

  • beetle

    Melanie 23.06
    Those are quite serious threats.
    Its called harassment, and as such, in all its cyber form, is now a reportable and prosecutable offense.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    “One of the many problems with the gay community is that many of its constituents are incapable of holding down an intelligent conversation”

    Terence is right. I am always impressed by the elevated, erudite discourse of the straight community on this blog. (You know who you are!) My mother says the gay community should form a “satellite” blog, dedicated to the Rocky Horror Show and other parts of their PINKISH agenda.

    Thanks.

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    beetle
    May 25, 2013 at 10:32 am

    Beetle,

    “Do you think you might get a silver teaset as a present?”

    Those girly things you have to ask Dmwangi!

    I’m just organising the boy’s night out (with girls of course).

  • beetle

    30 April 2013 at 11:24

    Those suspected of bullying, cyber-stalking or sexual harassment are expected to be pulled into line more quickly with a new law that has just been passed.

    The Protection Against Harassment Act came into effect on Freedom Day.

    It protects citizens against unwelcome behaviour which is not technically a crime, but does infringe on their rights.

    The Justice Department’s Vulindlela Matai says the new law covers a range of both direct and indirect behaviour such as watching a person, pursuing them, accosting their relatives and close friends or sending unsettling letters, packages and e-mails.

    Matai says under the new law, the person who is being harassed can get an immediate protection order from a magistrate, instead of first waiting for a hearing.

    “An interim order is granted immediately and then a return date is set, where the complainant and harasser are both called for purposes of arguing. If the magistrate feels that there was indeed harassment then the order will be confirmed,” he said.

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    beetle
    May 25, 2013 at 10:49 am

    Eish Beetle,

    It doesn’t scare Melanie,

    She’s from the USA and heads up the TEA-PARTY!

    Nothing scares stupid people – ignorance is an excuse.

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    May 24, 2013 at 23:48 pm

    OB,

    “I thank our maker.”

    You thanked Bill Gates?

  • Harold Ferwood

    Maggs Naidu – Cardinal Napier : “I don’t know any gays”! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 24, 2013 at 12:13 pm
    Harold Ferwood
    May 24, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Hey Hey Harold,

    Looooooooooooong time no see.

    What’s news?

    Nothing much hey, between trying to resolve this balls up with my bosses ‘ benefactors and working so hard that I can’t distinguish between pressure from a number 1 and Thee number 1 – added to that my wonderful, yet sick fetiah of following this forum over all this time, life is pretty peachy.

    Just couldn’t resist commenting to Maelonie’s banter and shocked at the resultant venom from her, if in fact it is her? Seems like she had multi personalities or just simply possessed (the Pope can help in this regard) – cardinal Napier can explain.

    Reading between the lines of her threats its clear that the pink supporting liberals have a militant wing engaging in cyber warfare. Wonder if they training next to Al quaeda? Who knows? I’ve given up on our national security. Told number one that – not paying much attention to me, he’s still trying to figure out what exactly is Lolly lounge) thinks it a teazers for some reason.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 25, 2013 at 11:25 am

    LOL maggs.

    It looks to me you are just another ANC supporter!

    ANC voters like ‘stupid women’

    http://news.iafrica.com/sa/861047.html

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Marais, currently vice-president of the Bruin Bemagtigingsbeweging (Brown Empowerment Movement), posted his views on his Facebook page on Wednesday, the newspaper reported.

    “Any coloured or white person who still supports and votes ANC is like an abused woman who think[s] that if she marries the man who abuses her, he will stop doing so,” he reportedly said.”

    LOL – couldn’t have said it better myself.

    And thank you White liberals for more “identity politics” that fit in nicely with the ANCs NDR. More bad news for the Guptas though:

    “More than a hundred complaints of looting and vandalism of spaza shops *belonging to foreign nationals* and locals have been reported,” Lt-Col Lungelo Dlamini said.”

    http://news.iafrica.com/sa/861185.html

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Another national challenge solved!

    This is what is expected from each of the following role players when preparing for the traditional initiation:

    Young boys/Inkwenkwe
    » Obtain parental, family or guardian consent and permission
    » Abstain from stewed tripe meat and alcohol
    » Abstain from sexual intercourse closer to the month of the initiation
    » He must respect his community and respect people’s assets

    Ingcibi/Traditional Surgeon
    » Must abstain from the following:
    – Sexual intercourse
    – From drinking alcohol

    » After circumcising the boy, iNgcibi examines them to ensure all was done properly and there are no errors *He consults men in the community to inspect his work to ensure that there are no errors
    » He visits iBhoma (initiation school) to check on the initiates

    Ikhankatha/Traditional Nurse
    » Must stay eBhomeni (initiation school) with abakhwetha (initiates) until the end of the initiation period.
    » Must train abakhwetha on being a man, which includes the fact that:
    – A man doesn’t abuse females
    – A man doesn’t rape
    – A man is the protector and provider of his family and the nation

    Things not allowed eBhomeni (Initiation schools)
    » People who are not amakhankatha (traditional nurse) are not allowed eBhomeni
    » Females and children must not go to eBhomeni
    » Alcohol, dagga, drugs are not allowed eBhomeni
    » Abakhwetha are not allowed to use cellphones while they are in the initiation school
    » Parents and amaKhankatha must agree on the type of food to be taken to eBhomeni
    » Constructing amaBhoma using plastics and zinc is not allowed

    http://www.citypress.co.za/news/traditional-leaders-give-tips-to-curb-initiation-deaths/

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, what does your GRANNY say about the markedly elevated level of the contributions of the “straight” community on this blog?

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 25, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    Is it true that Jesus did not have a paternal granny?

    Also that he was only half-human?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 25, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    “Maggs, what does your GRANNY say about the markedly elevated level of the contributions of the “straight” community on this blog?”

    mfd, are you suggesting some of us should rather be posting here:

    Do white people have a future in South Africa?

    http://forum.planet-rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35278

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, if you and other so-called “straights” want esoteric theological debate, I respectfully recommend a “satellite” blog. Meantime, answer the question: What does your GRANNY say about the quality of heteronormative discourse? And is she aware — as OZ has no doubt heard — that whites in Roodepoort have been reduced boiling tree bark and licking the tarmac to derive their essential nutrients?

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma knows what he is doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 25, 2013 at 13:37 pm

    Dworky,

    Granny says that some of are straight, the GUPTAs are crooked, Terence is twisted, Brett is round (and fat).

    She is really enjoying and impressed by the “elevated level of the contributions” of the likes of Melani. She also says please beg Melanie to come back as without her input, this blog will degenerate into a cesspool of mindless chitter-chatter.

    Granny also says for you to tell OB that if WHITE people did not want to be poor they should have joined the struggle!

    WDYSTT?

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    About two months ago I went to a Saturday morning auction where quite a few of the inhabitants of Coronation Park are to be found. A woman held up a tiny bottle of gold sprinkles. Turns out she had tried to sell her gold jewellery but the pawnshops etc said it was plated. So she went home and scraped the plating off her jewellery and tried to sell that.

    Ever been that desperate, Dworky? For all the trivialising you and Marelise try to do? You can’t deny that the ANC has been very open about its intentions of displacing white South Africans from every facet of society.

    Ethnic cleansing, pure and simple. And when their unsophisticated followers get a bit overexcited and murder the white victims they have been set on like dogs you trivialise the numbers.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    You are, of course, right. But there are some who would say that those who are really trivialising white poverty are those that employ gross hyperbole, suggesting that genocide is being perpetrated, that 25% of whites live in hovels, etc. (Some made a mockery of apartheid, claiming that it was equivalent to the Holocaust.)

  • terence grant

    Silly me! I didn’t initially realize that Pierre had established this forum in order to afford gay clowns and comedians the opportunity to advertise their wares!Better leave before someone drags me down to their level in the hope of being allowed to throw a party in my honour.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Goodbye Terence; as they say in the movies – the weakest link must go.

    That’s two down.

    Well done Comrade Gays & Clowns (you know who you are)!

    p.s. Terence don’t shut the door after you – there will be other idiots to follow.

    And while you’re going do consider that when a woman says no, it means no (whether she’s a wife, stranger, neighbour or other) irrespective of what the minister may think.

  • terence grant

    MAGGSNAAIDOO, Thank-you for informing me and heterosexuals in general that NO means NO. Now could you kindly explain the situation to the moffie (one of my mothers friends)who played doctor-doctor with me when I was 4 years old, or does the fact that I didn’t actually say NO put a different slant on things?Kindly try to amuse us with your reply.

  • terence grant

    Somewhere there is a gay being beaten up because of loudmouths like Maggsnaaidoo who respond abusively
    to their critics by telling them to piss of or by asking whether they are drunk or mad. With friends like Maggsnaaidoo who needs enemies?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “The majority of those affected are foreign nationals.
    The attacks come as the world commemorates Africa Day.”

    “In Evaton several shop-owners of Pakistani descent refused to comment saying they fear for their lives.”

    Now if only those gay “foreign nationals” and those guptas couldn’t get married in a Christian church – then out “constitutional experts” may reward them with some sympathy.

    http://ewn.co.za/2013/05/25/Foreign-shop-owners-attacked-on-Africa-Day

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Unconvincing, Dworky! I certainly do not feel rebutted. Gross hyperbole? You don’t get out enough. You’re just making the standard of proof impossibly high coz you do not want to have to mit the reality.

    If anyone’s interested, it smells like my neighbours in No12 are smoking weed.

  • terence grant

    I WOULD LIKE IT CLEAR THAT I HAVE HAD IT UP TO HERE WITH STUPID FUCKS LIKE MAGGSNAAIDOO WHO THINK THEY ARE FREE TO URINATE AND DEFECATE ALL OVER OTHER PEOPLE AND THEIR BELIEFS AND VALUES

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “Gross hyperbole? You don’t get out enough”

    Brett, although I seldom get out, I agree with you 10,000%! I just regret the fact that thousands of people have swallowed the LIE that the average white income is about 9X that of blacks.

    (Also, I have new evidence that Mr Obama was born into a strict sect of hyperfundamentalist Muslims in Jeddah! Do you want to hear it?)

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    “I WOULD LIKE IT CLEAR THAT I HAVE HAD IT UP TO HERE WITH STUPID FUCKS LIKE MAGGSNAAIDOO”

    BUT TERENCE, WOULD YOU GO SO FAR AS TO SAY THAT MAGGSNAAIDOO SHOULD FORM A SATELLITE “SCAT” BLOG, LEAVING US TO PURSUE INTELLIGENT EXCRETMENT-FREE DISCOURSE?

    THANKS!

  • terence grant

    Yes. Members of Parliament get suspended for acting disruptively or acting disrespectfully towards other MP ‘s and there consequently is a precedent for asking someone like maggsnaaidooi to behave appropriately and remain on-topic

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    May 26, 2013 at 0:24 am

    Brett, although I seldom get out, I agree with you 10,000%! I just regret the fact that thousands of people have swallowed the LIE that the average white income is about 9X that of blacks.

    Sjoe! What is the relevance of average income (of 90% of the population some 45m people compared to 9 % of the population some 4m people) to a debate about people deliberately being targeted for displacement from the economy, the body politic, national sport, cultural life and more?

    Since you want to examine the income of a distinct group what do you think is going to happen to all the standards throughout the indices of a population group that increases 10fold in one century but boycotts education for a quarter century?

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 26, 2013 at 0:24 am

    Hey Dowrky

    “I agree with you 10,000%!”

    Hmm – but do you agree with Terence more or less than 10,000%, like maybe 9999% or 10001%?

    What do you think Terence said to his granny?

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 25, 2013 at 21:55 pm

    Hey Terence,

    “Somewhere there is a gay being beaten up because of loudmouths like Maggsnaaidoo who respond abusively to their critics by telling them to piss of or by asking whether they are drunk or mad.”

    Awww – I hurt your feelings.

    Sorry about saying those things which are hurtful.

    I unconditionally retract “are you drunk or mad?”.

    And replace it with – YOU’RE A FUCKING MORON, TWIT! NOW PISS OFF AND GO COMPLAIN TO YOUR GRANNY. (p.s. Dworky and Brett will explain).

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Pfttt…

    Magss are you attempting to provoke PdV to apply heavy-handed censorship on his blog?

    Why don’t you just leave the morons alone?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “What is the relevance of average income … to a debate about people deliberately being targeted for displacement from the economy …?”

    Brett, far be if from me to channel the viewpoint of white-GENOCIDE DENIALISTS. But I suppose they would answer your question by saying that, if indeed whites enjoy an average income of 9X that of blacks, the “targeting” of whites for “displacement from the economy” has been a miserable failure.

    Dogged denialists would also insist that the large over-representation of whites on the boards of the corporations that run the economy also undermines the contention that they are being displaced.

    Thanks.

  • terence grant

    Don’t be ridiculous. This is an us versus them issue and uncouth moffies like maggsnaaidooi are hence allowed to say whatever the hell they please.
    This is a lot like the Daily Voices’ Rek Your Bek column, and reflects very poorly on Pierre ,who is probably busy washing his hands

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 26, 2013 at 10:25 am

    “Dogged denialists would also insist that the large over-representation of whites on the boards of the corporations that run the economy also undermines the contention that they are being displaced.”

    So is there some kind of a Whites-only slush fund were this minuscule minority of wealthy Whites pool all their wealth together for the exclusive benefit of all the less privileged Whites. How do I apply?

    I always thought these very wealthy Whites also had to pay taxes that are utilised by the government which in turn have a democratic mandate to redistributed the wealth to all our citizens who are overwhelmingly black?

  • terence grant

    I incidentally am the chap who kicked up a huge brouhaha about The Reverend OP Bougardt’s many homophobic comments, thereby forcing Chris Whitfield and IN to interfere with Bougaardts right/ability to refer to low-life’s like Maggsnaaidoo as moffienaaiers etc.

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    May 26, 2013 at 10:25 am

    ” if indeed whites enjoy an average income of 9X that of blacks, the “targeting” of whites for “displacement from the economy” has been a miserable failure”

    That is not a convincing argument. And it is not the complete picture.

    You sound like the guy who argued 68 000 murdered whites makes for ‘not much of a genocide’. Many whites have been displaced from the civil service into entrepreneurship, it is true. Because of the ANC’s shortsighted simpleminded policies and the ANC’s systematic de-skilling of its own supporters so many people have been forced to leave the country any kind of skill commands a premium. And that does not even begin to take into account the differences in culture with white kids being raised to respect authority and property and in general the culture of order.

    File the 9x argument in ‘Unintended Consequences’.

  • terence grant

    I also am the moron who in 2005 forced(with a little help from Bronwynne Eisbach of Weekend Argus)Uncle Toms Cabin at Bergvliet Sports Club to remove the Confederate Flag -a powerful pro-slavery icon-from its walls.I do so wish that that stupid fuck Maggsnaaidooi would come out from behind his pseudonym and show me what he is made of

  • Mau

    terence grant
    May 26, 2013 at 10:27 am

    “Don’t be ridiculous. This is an us versus them issue and uncouth moffies like maggsnaaidooi are hence allowed to say whatever the hell they please.
    This is a lot like the Daily Voices’ Rek Your Bek column, and reflects very poorly on Pierre ,who is probably busy washing his hands”

    The mind boggles about how some people can say the hell they please, but their main hypocritical demand is that others must stop saying what the hell they please.

    Pierre, thank you again for creating a save enough space for freedom of speech to mean something. Please let things stay as they are no matter who says what. That is true freedom of speech and allows for the most balanced debate. No room for hidden agendas or screwed up believe systems.

    As things stand, your blog and in particular your comments section is riveting to say the least.

    The Melanies of this world may care to read, really read, every word from each person on this blog and maybe recognise a narrative that may well just give an equal voice to everyone? Seems they like shutting people up in America lest someone says something they like.

    @Terence,

    You have been a victim of a despicable humans’ actions but it seems to me (and I’m often wrong about things) that you irrationally attribute certain stereotypical attributes to “moffies” and the widely respected Mr Naidu

    As a result you come across as angry and stupidly fundamentally homophobic?

    Please get help if you need it and make sure the doctor-doctor friend has been reported to the police and gets thoroughly investigated.

    Do yourself a favour and make friends with lots of moffies and discover for yourself that most are just human beings and often because of their sexual preferences have a better appreciation for the joys of life than some of us heterosexuals.

    For the most part you are in any case not really able to tell who is a moffie or not? So don’t kid yourself about what kind of people moffies are or are not and please don’t take it out on the rest of us..

    What happened to “live and let live”, and “Do unto others what you would like to be done unto you?”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mau
    May 26, 2013 at 11:22 am

    “As things stand, your blog and in particular your comments section is riveting to say the least.”

    Yes, some of us constantly try to remind him to keep things real.

    Foreign-owned spaza shops looted

    “Dozens of spaza shop owners from Pakistan, Somalia and Ethiopia were attacked yesterday, their stock looted and doors ripped down. The targeted looting was widespread in Sebokeng, Orange Farm and Evaton areas south of Joburg.”

    “The Sebokeng police spokeswoman could not be reached for official comment at the time of going to press. The apparent renewal of xenophobic activity in several townships comes five years after a series of attacks that left 62 people, including 21 South Africans, dead.”

    “The attacks, which started in early May 2008 in Alexandra, resulted in thousands leaving the country or being accommodated in transit camps.”

    “Why (do) they come? I don’t know,” Dewan said. “But I must leave, there is no safety here.”

    “We don’t want them here, they are going to kill us and put us in a fridge,” a woman in the crowd yelled as a Pakistani shop-owner drove off in a truck with those goods he had left. ”

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/foreign-owned-spaza-shops-looted-1.1521746#.UaHY-tc88VY

    And in related news:

    “The official then called Rehman a Gupta again, and when Rehman asked him if he knew who he was, he replied: “Yes I know, you are a Gupta.”

    When Rehman told the official he was offended, he reportedly replied: “You can go back to India and take offence, here in South Africa, this country belongs to us.”

    Now one would have imagined that a “constitutional expert” would take serious issue with such developments.

  • terence grant

    Mau,maggsnaidoo is a stupid fuck who responds abusively to serious points by telling those making these serious points to piss off, to fuck off and asking them whether they are drunk or mad.The fact that he is gay does not excuse his abusiveness

  • Maggs Naidu – Terence is gay! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 26, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Hey Terence,

    “Mau,maggsnaidoo is a stupid fuck who responds abusively to serious points by telling those making these serious points to piss off, to fuck off and asking them whether they are drunk or mad”

    I deny that I ever do any of that in response to”serious points”.

    But now that you’re out of the closet, can I arrange a date for you with Dmwangi?

    p.s. Do try to make a serious point and let’s see how it goes.

  • terence grant
  • terence grant

    Naidu, you are an abusive cunt and are going to get a taste of your own medicine from me.

  • Maggs Naidu – Terence is gay! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 26, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Terence,

    “Naidu, you are an abusive cunt and are going to get a taste of your own medicine from me.”

    Should I be terrified?

  • Maggs Naidu – Terence is gay! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    p.s. Terence – was that (May 26, 2013 at 12:53 pm) your “serious point”?

  • terence grant

    No. But you should be seriously concerned about the damage you with your abusive/dismissive attitude are doing to image of gays. Ironic, isn’t it that you’ re fucking with the person who complained to the Presidency and the DA about Reverend OP Bougard being allowed by The Daily Voice to refer to gays as moffienaaiers etc etc ?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    “The fact that [MAGGNAIDOO] is gay does not excuse his abusiveness”

    With respect, Terence, you are being harsh here. I say his PINKISH tendency at least mitigates his abusiveness. Try growing up in an aggressively heteronormative society like SA, surrounded by vicious homophobes. Odds are you will end up a twisted, sick and deeply malevolent human being — just like MAGGNAIDOO!

    Thanks.

  • terence grant

    For the record the point that I made was that the church’s opposition to homosexuality is built squarely on its opposition to recreational sex/fornication and hence does not target gays or discriminate against them .This resulted in Maggsnaaidoo sarcastically asking me if i’m drunk or mad.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 26, 2013 at 13:10 pm

    “Try growing up in an aggressively heteronormative society like SA, surrounded by vicious homophobes.”

    mfd – I explained before we shouldn’t allow tiny minorities of bigoted maggots to drag the rest of our society down to their level. The existence of pockets of homophobia doesn’t imply all of society is homophobic, just as the presence of some corrupt Guptas doesn’t imply all Guptas and/or Indians are corrupt.

    Catch my drift? That is called GENERALISATION and STEREOTYPING, just like gwebs spend most of his waking hours desperately googling the Internet probing for examples of some corrupt and/or racist whites that he then uses as justification to defend government corruption or racist employment policies.

    Any questions?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Talking of which:

    The DA found a tiny pocket of “racist” Whites barely surviving in a place called “Kleinfontein”.

    The settlement, which reportedly only accepts “white, Afrikaans Protestants who abide by the Blood River Covenant” as residents or workers, had no place in a democratic South Africa, DA Youth leader Mbali Ntuli said on Wednesday.

    “We cannot allow racial nationalists on the extreme fringes of South African politics to try and bring apartheid back.”

    “Earlier, government expressed dismay that there were still citizens who did not want to integrate into a democratic South Africa.

    “This disintegration is extremely disappointing, as it perpetuates the ills of the apartheid era,” acting government spokesperson Phumla Williams said.”

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Protest-over-reported-Kleinfontein-racism-20130522

    LOL. Wha’ts next – the 500 inhabitants of Orania?

    So apparently those racist whites who are excluded from the mainstream economic participation by the ANC’s very own racial classification and racist employment/empowerment are not even allowed to club together and try and help themsleves?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “We cannot allow racial nationalists on the extreme fringes of South African politics to try and bring apartheid back.”

    But apparently “we can allow” those RACIAL NATIONALISTS who run the ANC and the “Black Business Council” an even bigger opportunity to gorge themselves.

    “The decision reinforces mounting pressure both within and outside government for black business to get a larger share of the state’s procurement budget through preferential treatment. At stake is the Treasury’s drive to keep down costs, while Public Enterprises Minister Malusi Gigaba, among others, aims to boost empowerment through state procurement.”

    http://businessday.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/showarticle.aspx?article=65d3016d-5f62-49ff-80a3-06dc9b491d7a&key=jaeviWgDCEVeI6vKLCvoyw%3d%3d&issue=11062013052100000000001001

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “The presidential review committee on state-owned enterprises has also recommended BEE be given a 30% weighting in the procurement decisions of state-owned firms.”

    I mean fuck it, why don’t we just make it 100% and get over with the fuss. As if PWD and our so-called “service delivery” is not already just about destroyed by the very same procurement policies.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OZ

    “we shouldn’t allow tiny minorities of bigoted maggots to drag the rest of our society down to their level … Any questions?”

    You make some fine points. But I do have a question, for Maggs:

    “To what extent can we attribute the fact that you are a BIGOTED MAGGOT to the not-inconsiderable pressure of growing up surrounded by people who (quite reasonably), deem your flagrant PINKISHNESS to be an abomination in the eyes of the Lord?”

    Thanks.

  • terence grant

    Mikhail, you need to understand that Maggs Naidu’s attention-seeking behaviour probably has little to do with his sexual orientation.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Terence, you may be right. But let’s see what he says about that himself!

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Ozoneblue says:
    May 26, 2013 at 13:31 pm

    We should all remember to warn our friends and family who we know vote DA.

    The DA have suffered such a drop in standards, principle has gone out the back door to such an extent, they have taken a tip out of Malema’s book on how to win media attention and gain market share quickly.

    Racial mobilisation against whites is the new DA name-of-the-game.

    The blame game.

    Soft, easy target.

    We all know what the consequences are of these campaigns where people are invited to express their anger at whites for everything wrong with their lives.

    Our old folk are murdered in their beds. Strangled with their own clothes hangers. Worse.

    The death of 68000 whites at black hands when the ANC’s supporters got overexcited is not enough for the DA.

    Ask yourself what they did to stop it, how they contribute to the safety of your family.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Dworky,

    “To what extent can we attribute the fact that you are a BIGOTED MAGGOT to the not-inconsiderable pressure of growing up surrounded by people who (quite reasonably), deem your flagrant PINKISHNESS to be an abomination in the eyes of the Lord?”

    Did you know that my father was gay. And his father. And his father’s father …

    In fact in India we have a saying “It wiLl be sad if you’re not gay”

    P.s. Only WHITE people are pinkish-whitish. IOW Brett is a pig!

  • Dmwangi

    @Terence:

    I wouldn’t pay too much bother to Naidu’s endless logorrhea of stupidity. He thinks 86% of his fellow citizens are ‘homophobes.’ And as you can glean from the comments of Maggs and MDF, you should feel relieved you are not in the 14%:

    http://features.pewforum.org/africa/question.php?q=16

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    “as you can glean from the comments of Maggs and MDF …”

    With respect, I am mortified that you would box me with logorrheic MAGGNAIDOO. Like you and Terence, I view him as an abomination, and earnestly implore him to “hive off” into a “satellite” blog frankly dedicated to the abolition of heteronormativity in our time.

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Dmwangi – you can wear a purple dress for the wedding! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 26, 2013 at 18:50 pm

    Dworky,

    You really shouldn’t interfere in domestic disputes.

    Dm is just venting some anger cos I said he should not wear a purple wedding dress.

    But alas I relented!

    :roll:

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!
    May 26, 2013 at 15:20 pm

    “Racial mobilisation against whites is the new DA name-of-the-game.”

    No surprises there Brett. In fact I predicted it long time ago. It has also been the age old tested strategy for the survival of the capitalist system in the USA and the rest of colonial African.

    And I guess the irony is most of those inbred, clueless sods in Kleinfontein have been voting DA all the way. No problem, soon the ANC will be bussing them into ANC meetings to collect some food parcels as they rant on about the evils of the racist White male dominated DA.

    LOL.

  • Dmwangi

    MDF:

    Is it possible to mortify you and Maggs into quietude?

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Dmwangi – you can wear a purple dress for the wedding! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    May 26, 2013 at 20:06 pm

    Dm,

    “Is it possible to mortify you and Maggs into quietude?”

    I told him not to interfere in our romantic affairs – but it’s a struggle.

    He hinted at wanting to join us on honeymoon – are you ok with that?

  • Dmwangi

    Maggs:

    Why do you debase yourself like this? It cannot be psychologically healthy that you get so much self-satisfaction from obsessively talking kak on the internet for hours upon hours every day. Try to find something dignified and productive to do that makes you feel important instead of maintaining this online deportment that makes me feel embarrassed for your kids.

    Since you lack the self-control to help yourself, I’ll let you rejoind with the last word.

    Cheers.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Dm – when arseholes like you accept our Constitutionally enshrined rights to equality and non-discrimination then I will start watching sport for a hobby.

    Until then expect me around and you can shove your UBUNTU where the sun don’t shine!

  • terence grant

    It is abundantly clear that

  • terence grant

    It is abundantly clear that Maggs Naidu craves attention and pursuant to this end is content to stir up shit between gays and straights.We should expose him as an insatiable publicity -hound and leave things at that.Maggs is the price we pay for freedom.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    “Maggs is the price we pay for freedom.”

    If Maggs is the price of freedom, that is too high a price to pay. It is easy for the chattering classes to defend rights of free expression. Abstracted liberals have the means to avoid the worst effects of those who abuse civil liberties. But think of the thousands of innocents who, through no fault of their own, and by virtue of sheer proximity, must endure the devastation mental, spiritual and physical), wrought by Maggs and others like him.

    Thanks.

  • guest

    Yeah. Whether it is the arrogance, logorhea, attention-seeking, condescending tone, pigheadedness, demagogy, obfuscation, running opponents in circles till they forget or give up on their original point, abrasiveness, lack of tolerance, total disregard for othes’ opinion, political propaganda, alternating between two opposite forms of fanaticism (pro-Zuma, anti-Zuma), crass sexism or simply posting junk and plain trolling ad nauseaum etc etc – and after numerous lenghty comments dedicated to thorough analysis of all of the above have been posted by various fascinated (in the train crash sense) readers – it is now evident that yet another blog has been invaded, contaminated, hijacked and sabotaged by the notorious Maggots Naaido.

    The price we pay for freedom indeed. And the mental, spiritual and even physical devastation we have to endure.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    guest
    May 27, 2013 at 8:05 am

    He/she is not so bad. I have seen worse.

    I still do not understand why some people cannot post what they want to post without being side-tracked by trolls. And I do confess I’m sometimes accused of trolling myself.

    Is this what we want on the Internet and how compatible is it with the concepts of free speech and democracy, as if those noble concepts are indeed relevant any more?

    Eleven people across UK arrested for making ‘racist or anti-religious’ comments on Facebook and Twitter about British soldier’s death

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330809/Lee-Rigby-death-11-people-UK-arrested-making-racist-anti-religious-comments-online-British-soldiers-death.html

  • guest

    Yes, there is always worse.

    Yet ‘I’ve seen worse’ is arguably one of the worst possible defense strategies :)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    guest
    May 27, 2013 at 9:00 am

    “This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos”

    You would note that PdV interjects inflammatory non-constitution related remarks in his posts on a regular basis. Perhaps he is inviting this kind of thing, and many people come here to have a “serious discussion” about boring stuff they do not understand at all and then they piss off with a fuzzy hiss as if the are disappointed?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Now here is a blog that is hosted by a bunch of privileged White males that attracts at most two comments per post. And the first comment is planted. Surely is the second best thing to wanking in public.

    http://www.africacheck.org/reports/do-400-000-whites-live-in-squatter-camps-in-south-africa-the-answer-is-no/

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    guest
    May 27, 2013 at 9:00 am

    LOL Guest.

    I guess that that one really flew over the cuckoo’s nest!

    :P

  • terence grant

    Basically the argument that the church falls back on (namely that it is opposed to recreational-sex in all its forms) is very similar to the argument that Cape Times falls back on(namely that it -which has a white editor, a white news-editor ,a white head-of- news ,a white letters-editor and a white sports-editor etcetera etcetera, and focuses on issues that are of interest to people living in white areas ,such as a lack of space at Camps Bay High School and the closure of Cinema Noveau – is catering for the top-end of the market/for upper- income people, not for Whites….that it is not its fault that the overwhelming majority of people living in Camps Bay are White…..

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 9:24 am

    Terence,

    The church can believe any kak it wants to.

    But it must act within our Constitution.

    As our Constitutional Court showed in the Free State Provincial elections matter, all organisations must act in a way which is consistent with our founding values!

    The church is utterly disrespectful – those who are responsible for the disgraceful and unlawful action against Reverend Ecclesia de Lange should hang their heads in shame!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OZ

    It seems clear that the BBC got to its absurdly lowballed figure of 400,000 whites in squatter camps by using a formal, artificially narrow definition of the term, as used in the Prevention of Illegal Eviction Act. If one uses a proper sociological understanding of severe residential deprivation — lack of municipal services, unapproved building plans, mud/sand floors, vermin infestation, no roofs, elevated public toilets — the more realistic figure would be 2.2 million highly competent whites!

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    Although I deplore Maggs’ behaviour, it does not surprise me. Last time I was in India, I saw many of his touchable ancestors depicted at Hindooo temples, engaged in bizarre and often depraved acts of purely recreational sex.

    Maggs, WDYSTT?

  • terence grant

    Our constitution does not oblige the church to condone fornication or a “marriage” that is set up for non-procreative purposes. What you need to understand is that the church has never condoned recreational -sex between heterosexuals and consequently is not obliged to condone recreational -sex between homosexuals/gays.Similarly ,it has never condoned oral or anal sex between husband and wife and hence is not obliged to condone oral or anal sex between homosexuals/gays. However, this would only apply to people who REPRESENT the church such as ministers who are the church’s ambassadors :it would not apply to the church’s book-keeper, for instance, or to the church-organist. Basically, certain positions/”callings” require more moral rectitude than others

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 27, 2013 at 10:10 am

    So mfd, why don’t you make Anton Harbor and his troop of baboon’s day and post your comment on his satellite blog?

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 27, 2013 at 10:18 am

    Dworky,

    Only a WHITE man can consider fun to be “bizarre and often depraved acts of purely recreational sex”.

    How do you think we got to 1.3 billion in such a short space of time?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    But no says Eusebius McKaiser:

    Don’t let the DA fools you, ALL Whites are White Supremacists who are just itching to hang a nigga from a tree!

    “A statue of Hendrik Verwoerd at the shops and offices just inside the main gate of the seemingly racist enclave of Kleinfontein. The rest of society is no different to the people of Kleinfontein, says the writer. ”

    http://www.iol.co.za/the-star/hypocrisy-a-favourite-pastime-for-many-1.1522128#.UaMP8Nc88VY

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 10:24 am

    As long as the church acts within the bounds of our Constitution, they can do whatever they please.

    In this particular matter they did not act constitutionally!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Which remands me one again of the USA and that dishonest lying CRT expert Dorothy Brown:

    http://www.therightsphere.com/2012/03/soledad-obriens-expert-on-critical-race-theory-lied/

  • terence grant

    The church has acted within the bounds of the constitution you ignorant creep. If you feel that it has not kindly offer a supporting argument instead of expecting us to take your word for it.What are the flaws in the argument I have offered?

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Terence – you can find a proper exposition of the entire matter here http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/the-curious-case-of-the-pastor-punished-for-honesty/

    Your arguments are :

    – ” Consequently, there is nothing remotely discriminatory about the churches opposition to homosexuality, which is always fornication/recreational sex.”

    – “Besides,how does a minister protect a wife from her husbands desire for anal or oral sex if he/she is in the habit of arguing that these practises are perfectly acceptable in Gods eyes?”

    – “the world would be a far better place if God had given you screaming queens a few brain-cells and a rudimentary education”

    – “Do you think that lust is something that we should give into and nurture,allowing it to define us?Suffice it to say that I sometimes masturbate but can see no earthly reason why I should be proud of giving in to my animal urges and honestly dont understand why members of the gay community are so proud of the fact that they have sex(oral and/or anal)with other men?Seems to me that what you guys are after is absolute freedom to do whatever the hell you please ,indulge in group-sex and public-sex and using hardcore pornography and drugs to enhance your hedonistic pleasures”

    – “that there is nothing remotely noble about the hedonist and his search for the perfect orgasm.”

    – “I know all about the fickleness and shallowness of the gay community thanks to my late mother,Iris Shelton,who opened a gay-club(Mauds)in Prestwich Street Cape Town in the 1970 s and another(Aphrodite)in Durban in the late 1970 s before working for Des Purchase at The Wine Barrel in Cape Town.”

    – “I didn’t initially realize that Pierre had established this forum in order to afford gay clowns and comedians the opportunity to advertise their wares!”

    – “Naturally,I do understand that there are loads of gays who don”t do group=sex,public-sex or drugs but know as a fact that these practises are rife in the gay community.”

    – “I do so wish that that stupid fuck Maggsnaaidooi would come out from behind his pseudonym and show me what he is made of”

    – “maggsnaidoo is a stupid fuck ….The fact that he is gay does not excuse his abusiveness”

    – “Members of Parliament get suspended for acting disruptively or acting disrespectfully towards other MP ‘s”

    Eish – there’s a whole lot more.

    Now are you :

    a) drunk
    b) mad
    c) an idiot
    d) all of the above?

  • terence grant

    What is your point? Is it that if Pierre says something is unconstitutional then it must be unconstitutional? That you therefore can dismiss everything everyone else says by directing them to read Pierres article again? If that is the case then you are indeed one of the stupidest ,most irritating fucks that ever walked this earth.Go fuck yourself you fucking creep!

  • terence grant

    The fact of the matter is that you are a fucking sadist who gets his kicks /his ego-boost out of irritating people.

  • terence grant

    Makes you feel powerful doesn’t it?

  • terence grant

    You are a piece of shit!

  • Mau

    Terence, Terence.. good time to wish you good luck on those arguments.

    Eina.

  • terence grant

    It seems that Pierre de Vos must be enjoying the abusiveness that is flying around his blog. How else does one explain his failure to arbitrate between maggs and his many critics?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    @terence grant

    I have been following your “discussion” with maggs and I believe your last couple of comments are doing your argument no favours.

    But I think many of us agree that it is up to church people to determine their policies regarding marriage – and for me the crux are the following:

    “Interestingly, she was not charged because she was living with her same-sex partner in the manse. Neither was she charged for entering a same sex marriage.”

    That to me speaks of tolerance and “live-and-let-live” and imo cannot be “unconstitutional” Gay/Lesbian marriage is by no means a universally accepted practice, and White liberals will have to accept that fact – even from Malanie’s website you find the following article from the UN declaration of Human Rights:

    “Article 16.
    (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
    (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
    (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.”

    http://oblogdeeoblogda.me/2013/05/20/a-lesson-in-human-rights-for-us-all/

    My cursory reading is that even the above article envisages a marriage between a man and a women in order to “find a family” as “the natural and fundamental group unit of society”.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Terence,

    “Is it that if Pierre says something is unconstitutional then it must be unconstitutional?”

    Not at all.

    But it does defer to that which is important to us all – the law and our Constitution.

    On the other hand if we have to rely on that fact that your mother opened a “gay club” …

    :P

  • terence grant

    Go fuck yourself, you sadistic fuck

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Huge anti-gay-marriage protest march in Paris

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22671572

  • terence grant

    Why don’t you reply to the points I made instead of acting like a child, you sadistic fuck?Why not spell out where I am going wrong?

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Terence

    “Go fuck yourself, you sadistic fuck”

    Whatever will the church (and it’s “ministers”) have to say about something as UN-procreational as that?

    Did you know that even hermaphrodite snails don’t “fuck themselves” (rather they charm their neighbours when they wanna get some action)?

  • Mau

    Ozone, you seem to take the side of the opressed in everything else, but somehow when it comes to sexual orientation you preach the opposite. Is live and let live only applicable when religious people make the rules and when such rules are in line with your own believes? How do you explain this dicothomy (if that is the right word)?

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    I told you already where you are going wrong.

    Relying on some hogwash from the church rather than our soundly considered Constitution is it!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mau
    May 27, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    “Ozone, you seem to take the side of the opressed in everything else, but somehow when it comes to sexual orientation you preach the opposite.”

    Now if it was the SA government who prohibited same sex marriage, and not the Methodist Church, then things would be different – wouldn’t it and we could in fact talk about “oppression” instead of exercising a democratic right of association.

  • terence grant

    Ozone,I am not going to let Maggs Naidu get away with being abusive towards me or others and feel that it should be incumbent on you to complain to pierre about what is happening on his site instead of complaining to me .

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mau
    May 27, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Mau,

    “Is live and let live only applicable when religious people make the rules and when such rules are in line with your own believes?”

    That’s fair enough.

    As long as those rules are not inconsistent with our Constitution then all is well – even if those rules are not what some of us may not approve of.

  • guest

    Terence Grant must be experiencing what could be described as ‘maggots rage’. It is not uncommon occurrence, and could be compared to the more common ‘road rage’. Note to self: I should have included ‘irritating or yanking people’s chains’ to my earlier list.

    ” terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 12:09 pm
    The fact of the matter is that you are a fucking sadist who gets his kicks /his ego-boost out of irritating people.”

    If we assume this is correct – why grant him that pleasure, or serve him the opportunity to yank your own chain, or the power over you on a plate?

    While we have very little or no control over the surrounding world or people in it – we surely have control over our own behaviour and the way we can choose how to respond.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Maggs is an idiot. When he cannot argue rationally he always resorts to personal attacks. What he is doing here is not news to anyone, again – see my posts above, you don’t have to read his comments and just like Melanie you can choose not to post here.

  • terence grant

    I am an agnostic ,you idiot, and was simply giving the legal position. How do you think Pierre would have reacted if I had replied to his points like you did to mine,asking me whether I was drunk or mad? You are a pig..an ill-mannered,disrespectful piece- of -shit ..

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    Terence,

    “I am an agnostic ,you idiot, and was simply giving the legal position.”

    Crap man.

    The legal position is determined by our law.

    Not the church!

  • beetle

    Terrence 9.24
    Your Camps bay elite may find the new Cape Times unpalatable

    Another R500 million blue chip investment for the GEPF. Can be added to those other performers such as Sanral, Escom and BBBEE companies.
    The GEPF is a Ponzi scheme. and there are fingers in the till.

    THE Government Employees Pension Fund will acquire a 25% stake, worth about R500m, in newspaper group Independent News & Media South Africa, extending the government’s overall stake in media companies.

    The fund already owns a 19.5% stake in Times Media Group.

    The state’s latest addition to its media interests emerged from a Sekunjalo Independent Media submission to the Competition Commission explaining why the authorities should approve the R2bn takeover of the group, which owns 15 of the country’s most widely read English language titles, including The Star, The Mercury and the Cape Times.

    Sekunjalo Independent Media is a company set up by Dr Iqbal Survé to buy Independent News & Media SA and “bring it home” after it was bought by the Irish holding company, Independent News and Media, in 1994 from Anglo American.

    The Irish company has been under severe financial strain in recent years, with a €420m Eurobond hanging over its head.

    In August, Independent News & Media commissioned Investec and Hawpoint as advisers on the future of its South African holdings.

    Dr Survé’s Sekunjalo Independent Media is a separate company from JSE-listed Sekunjalo Investment Holdings, which he chairs.

    Citibank conducted a due diligence inquiry late last year of Independent News & Media SA and is advising Sekunjalo Independent Media. The result of that due diligence was that the initial offer of R2.3bn-R2.4bn was dropped to R2bn.

    Sekunjalo Independent Media and Independent News & Media signed a binding offer in February, which is subject to regulatory approval from the South African Reserve Bank and the Competition Commission.

    The commission was formally notified of the deal by Sekunjalo Independent Media on April 30 and it has 40-60 working days in which to approve the deal, grant a conditional approval, or reject it outright.

    According to the transaction notice that was circulated to the affected unions, the Media and Allied Workers Union of South Africa and the South African Typographical Union, the deal should be approved because there were no competition issues.

    Pension fund spokesman Khaya Buthelezi said the purchase of the stake in Independent News & Media SA was in line with the fund’s government mandate. “In terms of our developmental investment policy to which we have allocated 5% (about R60bn) of total assets under management, we seek to invest in commercially viable projects that deliver both financial and social returns. In addition, we seek to promote black economic empowerment to increase economic participation by the majority in the mainstream economy.”

    The transaction notice states that Sekunjalo Independent Media has among its shareholders Nelson Mandela’s grandson, Mandla Mandela, and prominent businessman Sandile Zungu, who, along with Dr Survé, has been appointed by President Jacob Zuma to the Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa business council.

    Dr Survé has refused to comment on the transaction notice for legal reasons.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 27, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    “The legal position is determined by our law.

    Not the church!”

    Nonsense.

    “31. Cultural, religious and linguistic communities

    Persons belonging to a cultural, religious or linguistic community may not be denied the right, with other members of that community ­
    to enjoy their culture, practise their religion and use their language; and

    to form, join and maintain cultural, religious and linguistic associations and other organs of civil society.
    The rights in subsection (1) may not be exercised in a manner inconsistent with any provision of the Bill of Rights.”

    Bill of Rights: Article 16. See above.

    If gays and lesbians want to get married, they can do so in a civil ceremony in a magistrates office.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    May 27, 2013 at 13:04 pm

    OB,

    Which part of “31(2) The rights in subsection (1) may not be exercised in a manner inconsistent with any provision of the Bill of Rights.” is unclear?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Terence

    “[I] was simply giving the legal position”

    As I understand it, the Methodist Church case is not primarily concerned with whether or not a church may proscribe homosexual unions. The applicant’s argument is rather that the decision against her was not procedurally fair, in the sense that it was not consistent with the church’s own stated policies and rules. When and if the broader question comes before a court – viz, whether churches may lawfully enforce internal rules that are discriminatory, e.g, by excluding women from the priesthood, it seems to me likely that the right of freedom of religion would indeed trump the equality right.

    But it seems to me that this is of small concern to those bored by legal analysis, and find trade in insult and invective more satisfying.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    @maggs

    I will post it again for your convenience:

    “Article 16.
    (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
    (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
    (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.”

    It does not say “men and men” or “women and women” have the right to marry – now does it? It is clear to me that the letter and spirit of article 16 doesn’t necessarily endorse gay/lesbian marriage – especial with reference to “The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society”.

  • terence grant

    Yes you ignoramus,gays may get married in a civil ceremony but this does not oblige the Methodist church to keep them on any more than the catholic church is obliged to hold onto a priest who gets married.You are so fucking ignorant its frightening!

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    May 27, 2013 at 13:20 pm

    OB – that’s already been interpreted by our CC.

    Same-sex marriage is consistent with our constitution.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2013 at 13:16 pm

    Prof MO,

    “When and if the broader question comes before a court – viz, whether churches may lawfully enforce internal rules that are discriminatory, e.g, by excluding women from the priesthood, it seems to me likely that the right of freedom of religion would indeed trump the equality right.”

    It would be a sorry day if that happened.

    I suspect that you’re completely wrong.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 27, 2013 at 13:26 pm

    “Same-sex marriage is consistent with our constitution.”

    Correct. Therefore same-sex marriage can be consumed in state sanctioned civil ceremonies. However freedom of religion is also consistent with our constitution. You also have the constitutionally guaranteed freedom of association not to belong to a certain religion if you do not agree with the moral norms and ethics of its adherents.

  • terence grant

    The guy is an absolute idiot! Thinks that because the CC has decided that same-sex marriages are legal the church has to employ gay ministers.Next he ”ll tell us that because its legal to drink alcohol ,swear and smoke cigarettes the church can’t prohibit its ministers from drinking,smoking and swearing! Where did this retard come from?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 13:39 pm

    In the worst case we can have the church parroting everything the government enshrines as law and constitutional as the DRC did under Apartheid.

    The various religions and other independent bodies lose their authentic voice as an independent moral barometer.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Maggs

    Courts in countries like Canada, U.S., and India are often cited by the CC in matters such as this. I am not aware of any instance where a court in those jurisdictions — or any other for that matter — has held that religious institutions with clearly defined and well established rules, for example, excluding women from the clergy, is compelled to drop such an exclusion by virtue of the equality right. Can you cite any such cases?

  • terence grant

    No, church’s are free to do pretty much as they please in relation to what they expect from Gods representatives/ambassadors ,demanding that ministers remain celibate /take vows of poverty and silence etc. However, a different set of rules apply to employees such as janitors ,housekeepers and bookkeepers etc.This is because janitors and book-keepers aren’t representing God .

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2013 at 13:49 pm

    Prof,

    If you’re right then all manner of things can creep in.

    Sexual orientation could easily be substituted by race or physical disabilities or language or anything else such groupings decide!

    It will be fascinating to see how a judgement will be written which will find a religious institution’s refusal to marry a same-sex couple as consistent with our constitution.

    Any suggestions?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    terence grant
    May 27, 2013 at 14:30 pm

    “No, church’s are free to do pretty much as they please in relation to what they expect from Gods representatives/ambassadors ”

    Again – as long as it is within the laws of the country. For example – I imagine human sacrifice would not be permissible under any circumstance.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    And another Methodist Church does it differently!

    Church Refuses to Conduct Marriages Until Same-Sex Couples Achieve Equality The Green Street United Methodist Church proclaimed in a statement, “On the matter of gay marriage, the church sees injustice in the legal position of state government and the theological position of our denomination.”

    http://www.advocate.com/politics/marriage-equality/2013/03/18/church-refuses-conduct-marriages-until-same-sex-couples

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    May 27, 2013 at 13:37 pm

    OB

    If you’re correct then it may well be acceptable for a clause to be written into the rules of association that e.g. only those who carry or have some kind of predisposition to the R59W mutation are allowed to be members of the particular group.

    It will make nonsense of our Equality clauses!

  • terence grant

    Thing to understand that Pierre agrees that the Methodist Church is entitled to prohibit its ministers from entering into same-sex marriages but argues somewhat ambitiously that the church did not have a policy on same -sex marriages when this minister announced her impending same-sex marriage and that she therefore did not violate the church’s policy .This is the equivalent of arguing that the government upon agreeing to consider legalising marijuana can no longer enforce existing legislation, which is a load of nonsense .The fact of the matter is that the church cut her some slack by not enforcing its existing legislation and that she opportunistically tried to force its hand by announcing to her congregation that she was about to marry her same-sex partner.That the church up to that point was bending over backwards in an effort to accommodate this priest should count in their favour but is instead being used very opportunistically by Pierre in an effort at claiming that this minister really didn”t realise that she was doing anything wrong/that the church was giving her mixed messages etcetera.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 27, 2013 at 14:45 pm

    “If you’re correct then it may well be acceptable for a clause to be written into the rules of association that e.g. only those who carry or have some kind of predisposition to the R59W mutation are allowed to be members of the particular group.”

    Correct – for example the Black Business Council – to think of one. However as long as government and the state doesn’t discriminate against its individual citizens on such grounds and grant them equal rights I don’t have a problem as such, Whites or Coloureds or Greens or gays or lesbians can always create their own business councils.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    May 27, 2013 at 15:38 pm

    Good point OB.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Maggs

    “It will be fascinating to see how a judgement will be written which will find a religious institution’s refusal to marry a same-sex couple as consistent with our constitution. Any suggestions?”

    In any number of cases, the CC has stated that, in the course of applying s. 36, two independent rights must be balanced, in a manner that may limit one or both rights. Here, the right of equality may have to give way, to some extent, to freedom of religion. Take another example – someone holds a party in her house, and fails to invite X, solely because he is black. I think this form of discrimination would not be unlawful, because the right to privacy and property outweighs the right to equality. I am not sure if there are any SA cases; there may be.

  • Dmwangi

    @MO:

    “Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2013 at 13:49 pm
    @ Maggs

    Courts in countries like Canada, U.S., and India are often cited by the CC in matters such as this. I am not aware of any instance where a court in those jurisdictions — or any other for that matter — has held that religious institutions with clearly defined and well established rules, for example, excluding women from the clergy, is compelled to drop such an exclusion by virtue of the equality right. Can you cite any such cases?”

    You know very well by now that, while Maggs is a serious scholar of church-state relations and could no doubt recite many constitutional precedents from around the globe by rote memory, his jurisprudence has no place for stare decisis. His well-known interpretive schema is the voluntarist hermeneutic: if something violates his finely-tuned sense of justice, it is ipso facto unconstitutional.

    I hope that clears up the matter and in the future you will not be so obtuse as to impose your narrow-minded jurisprudence on him by requesting he provide legal authority or rational argumentation or examine the purpose, intent, history, structure, text, logic of the Constitution or that he employ any of the other tools of injustice used by so-called legal ‘experts’ to oppress vulnerable groups under the guise of ‘constitutional interpretation.’ If something is unconstitutional, Naidu’s “barometer-of-injustice” will let you know!

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2013 at 13:49 pm

    We may just be setting some precedents ourselves!

    South Africa [in 2006] joins the elite group of progressive democracies that have legalised same-sex marriage in the last five years: the Netherlands, which passed the law in 2001, Belgium (2003), Canada (2005) and Spain (2005).

    http://www.southafrica.info/services/rights/same-sex-marriage.htm#.UaN6s9jOCWE#ixzz2UVV0tfzp

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    May 27, 2013 at 17:18 pm

    Hey Dm,

    You’re back – wanna talk about some romantic stuff?

  • Dmwangi

    Now Maggs, I’m sure I need not remind you that you are not here to fritter away countless hours just talking kak because you have nothing else to do but are a heroic human-rights crusader, valiantly compelling 86% of the country to assent to your Constitutional interpretation of “equality” and “non-discrimination” through sheer force of logic, intellectual fortitude and legal acumen.

    “Maggs Naidu
    May 26, 2013 at 21:47 pm
    Dm – when arseholes like you accept our Constitutionally enshrined rights to equality and non-discrimination then I will start watching sport for a hobby.

    Until then expect me around and you can shove your UBUNTU where the sun don’t shine!”

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    May 27, 2013 at 17:42 pm

    Hey Dm,

    Do say why the CC has 11 (eleven) judges!

  • Dmwangi

    That’s a tricky one Maggs. I’m sure the conventional wisdom would say it’s because that’s what s. 167 prescribes.

    But, methinks the real reason is because your favourite number is 11 and therefore anything else would be unconstitutional.

  • terence grant

    Oh you can all just FUCK RIGHT OFF I have had it with this “blog”

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    May 27, 2013 at 18:08 pm

    Dm,

    Ok – so why did the drafters of s. 167 decide on eleven, not 1?

    p.s. You know my favourite number – let’s not discuss that in public. :roll:

  • Melanie Nathan

    I see Melanie tweeted to Pierre that someone was impersonating her.

    Just one question Melanie.

    How the fuck did they get their IQ down that low to successfully pull it off ?

    Maggs would know who it is. It’s a very manley guy (huge hint :( )

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Someone should let Melanie know that Pierre’s piece is also posted on the Daily Maverick website.

    There are far more well balanced and rational comments there, not like you crazy lot here.

    Let’s say that Pierre took Prof MO’s advice to have a satellite blog!

    http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2013-05-23-the-curious-case-of-the-pastor-punished-for-honesty/#.UaOXgNjOCWE

  • Chris

    Too late Maggs, Melanie has left the building.

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Dmwangi says:
    May 27, 2013 at 17:18 pm
    May 27, 2013 at 17:42 pm
    May 27, 2013 at 18:08 pm

    Owwww!

    This kind of laughter is not good for my chest.

  • Brett Nortje – LOL! The NorthWest ANC government is abandoning it track record like the scene of an illicit fart!

    Oh, shit, this funny!

    “You know very well by now that, while Maggs is a serious scholar of church-state relations and could no doubt recite many constitutional precedents from around the globe by rote memory, his jurisprudence has no place for stare decisis. His well-known interpretive schema is the voluntarist hermeneutic: if something violates his finely-tuned sense of justice, it is ipso facto unconstitutional.”

    And

    “Now Maggs, I’m sure I need not remind you that you are not here to fritter away countless hours just talking kak because you have nothing else to do but are a heroic human-rights crusader, valiantly compelling 86% of the country to assent to your Constitutional interpretation of “equality” and “non-discrimination” through sheer force of logic, intellectual fortitude and legal acumen.”

    And

    “But, methinks the real reason is because your favourite number is 11 and therefore anything else would be unconstitutional.

  • terence grant

    I see that someone impersonated me at 18.09.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    All I can say that this is a glorious fuckup of a thread. Thank God it is the “internet” and not a real train smash or etolling going ahead.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=379338&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    By breaking decisively from the NUM, the miners as militant workers threatened major institutions in South Africa, among them the legitimacy of the ANC/SACP ruling “Alliance”. This was made final by their affiliating themselves with a smaller, rival union outside the rulling “Alliance”, the Association of Mineworkers and Constructions Workers Union (AMCU).

    They were indeed punished heavily for their transgressions.

    Among the aftershocks of this ANC massacre of its once supposed loyal followers, the ruling Zuma faction holding power in ANC, the government and the state could only preserve its grip on power and wealth by faking a huge raft of internal local elections within the ANC itself last year, so as to secure Zuma’s (and his clique’s) re-election to the pinnacle of privilege at its five-yearly national elective conference at Bloemfontein/Mangaung last December. The rigging of the conference and of the ANC itself could only be secured by expulsions from office of an ever-widening range of previously loyal but dissenting ANC local leaders.

    Disintegration of the “Alliance” has been further accelerated by these expulsions. In this way, there is now a conjoined crisis within the ANC and Cosatu, with its focus on illegitimate tenure of office, abuse of power and corruption.

    Anyone in the structures of the Alliance perceived as threatening the tenure of the power elite must be hounded out. As at Marikana, there are indications that murder of the opposition has become an affair of state.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Maggs & Terence

    I am not well versed in the case, but please see the extracts from press reports quoting De Vos SC, which seem to bear out my suggestion, that the issue is not (as you both appear to assume), whether the church is entitled to discriminate on the basis of orientation, the narrower issue of whether it may do so in the absence of a clearly delineated rules/policies:

    “As long as there is no specific rule by the church forbidding same-sex marriages, she’s entitled to enter into a marriage. . . . How do they justify discrimination if they don’t know it’s right or wrong?… .You can’t discriminate if you can’t decide.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2013 at 20:58 pm

    Thanks Prof – I saw that.

    I suspect that a challenge will soon be brought against religious institutions which have those specific rules.

    On an aside – do you think a challenge to a rugby team to allow a woman to play among a field of men will succeed (if such a situation ever did arise)?

  • Dmwangi

    Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 27, 2013 at 18:14 pm

    I don’t know, Maggs. I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that the Const. is the product of a negotiated political settlement in which one party wanted to re-make the judiciary to be broadly reflective of the country’s demographics during the transition from parliamentary sovereignty, while the other party wanted to ensure at least four of the justices of the prior SC were selected to the new CC.

    No, the real reason, as far as I can glean from the Naidu gauge-of-injustice, is that the drafters were all homosexual rights activists, and agreed that the judicial composition of the CC should align with the universally accepted numerical symbol of that sexual orientation.

  • Maggs Naidu

    LOL Dm.

    So our CC has 11 judges so some can be gay?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Maggs

    “do you think a challenge to a rugby team to allow a woman to play among a field of men will succeed”

    I think not. It would probably be seen as discrimination, but not as unfair discrimination.

  • terence grant

    Michael, I already tackled that point:

    May 27, 2013 at 15:12 pm

    Thing to understand that Pierre agrees that the Methodist Church is entitled to prohibit its ministers from entering into same-sex marriages but argues somewhat ambitiously that the church did not have a policy on same -sex marriages when this minister announced her impending same-sex marriage and that she therefore did not violate the church’s policy .This is the equivalent of arguing that the government upon agreeing to consider legalising marijuana can no longer enforce existing legislation, which is a load of nonsense .The fact of the matter is that the church cut her some slack by not enforcing its existing legislation and that she opportunistically tried to force its hand by announcing to her congregation that she was about to marry her same-sex partner.That the church up to that point was bending over backwards in an effort to accommodate this priest should count in their favour but is instead being used very opportunistically by Pierre in an effort at claiming that this minister really didn”t realise that she was doing anything wrong/that the church was giving her mixed messages etcetera.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 27, 2013 at 21:07 pm

    maggs. It might surprise you but –

    Rugby players have a profound sense of honour and a [very] rudimentary understanding of ethics.

    “If the clever guys who determine rugby’s laws granted me one wish it would be to bring back rucking, with the only proviso that a boot on the head or face would be an immediate red card and a lengthy ban.

    Other than that, ruck away.”

    http://keo.co.za/2013/05/27/rugby-needs-rucking/

  • Michael Osborne

    Terence, do you know of anywhere in the rules, constiution, or policies of the church where it is stated that a minister may be disciplined for entering a same sex civil union?

  • terence grant

    One does not have to have a written set of rules that governs everything that one can or cannot do. All that the church would need to do is to explain is that this minister is in effect Gods ambassador and that her beliefs have to reflect Gods opposition to recreational -sex. Imagine for a moment the Director-General in the Presidency speaking out against AA and expecting to hold onto his/her job, or a DA spokesperson speaking out against capitalism and private property, or the head of the Right To Know Campaign supporting the Secrecy Bill, or a Jewish Rabbi publically stating that he believes that Jesus was Indeed the literal son of God! The mind boggles

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    This chump is writing off the NDP because it only reduces inequality on the Gini coefficient by .1%.

    Let me tell you what Crony’s plan for 2030 is: Planning!

    Hey, it beats work. The cadres have ‘worked’ out one can go from 1994 to 2030 without ever breaking into a sweat and actually get paid for it!
    Utopia! It actually exists.

    http://www.miningweekly.com/article/national-development-plan-fatally-flawed-cronin-tells-godsell-2013-05-27?

    JOHANNESBURG (miningweekly.com) – South Africa’s National Development Plan (NDP) was fatally flawed and impossible to implement, Deputy Public Works Minister Jeremy Cronin told National Planning Commissioner and former mining luminary Bobby Godsell in a public debate at the weekend.
    “It’s fatally flawed as an implementation plan,” said Cronin of the 484-page document, which seeks to triple, in real terms, the 2010 size of the South African economy by 2030, lower unemployment to 6% and reduce inequality on the Gini coefficient from 0.7% in 2009 to 0.6% in the next 17 years.

    The deputy general-secretary of the South African Communist Party (SACP) and African National Congress National Executive Committee member was disdainful of the negligible inequality reduction being targeted.

    “This target, on a critical issue, is pathetic, let’s admit it,” said Cronin

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Terence

    “One does not have to have a written set of rules that governs everything that one can or cannot do.”

    Generally speaking, voluntary organizations – even churches — may not discipline members except for violation of defined rules. There is much case law, to which I will refer you if you are interested. Insofar as the church cannot point to a specific rule she violated, its actions against the minister are vulnerable to challenge. You raise a question as to a hypothetical govt official speaking out against, for instance, AA. I think that is different, because such a statement would be contrary to unambiguously stated govt policy. Far from having a clear policy opposing civil unions, the church’s 2008 Handbook specifically states that its policy in that regard is undecided. As I pointed out to Maggs, if and when the church adopts a clear rules against civil unions, it may well be able to enforce same, notwithstanding that they are discriminatory.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    When her girlfriend moved in the Church should have argued she was bringing it into disrepute.

    Could probably still be pulled off.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    May 28, 2013 at 9:41 am

    Prof – in effect, religion may well be a backdoor for all manner of bigotry?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Maggs

    “religion may well be a backdoor for all manner of bigotry?”

    Yes. Most of the world’s religions are founded on systems of discrimination and exclusion that, but for the rights to freedom of religion, expression, privacy and property (which each carry as much weight as the right to equality), would probably be unconstitutional.

  • terence grant

    Michael, the church’s opposition to all forms of fornication is deeply-entrenched and there hence is no space to argue that it in its rules had to make it clear that it was against fornication. Are you saying then that the church also has to have a rule that states that adultery is wrong or that it is wrong for an unmarried priest to have loads of one night stands?

  • terence grant

    Brett, the fact that the church did not fire her until she went public is neither here nor there. Perhaps they knew that she was not a fit and proper person but weren’t sure that they could prove it, or wanted to discuss the matter in greater detail. The only important fact is that the church ordered her and all of its ministers not to take a stance on the issue until the church had had the time to decide and that this minister disobeyed in the hope of forcing her church to accept gay marriage.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Terence

    It seems odd that, if the church’s position is as clear as you suggest, the Handbook would specifically state that “any decision and subsequent action on the issue of civil unions between same sex partners must await the outcome of the on-going process of engagement. ” (Please note the conjunctive “and action.”)

    Does this language not clearly imply that no decision has yet been made on the issue? To answer your question re adultery: In the highly unlikely event that the church stated expressly that “any decision and subsequent action on the issue of adultery” must await ongoing engagement then, yes, I think that disciplinary action on the basis of adultery would be at least questionable. Let me refer you also to the case law that exclusion from an organisation is the most severe penalty possible, it may be subject to a stricter test on review.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    May 28, 2013 at 10:55 am

    Prof,

    So a homophobic pastor (who needs to be registered with the state as a marriage officer) can legally refuse to marry a gay couple.

    But the same homophobic minister, if he was a part-time barber, will not be legally entitled to refuse to cut the same gay couples hair at his barber-shop?

  • Michael Osborne

    Yes, possibly. I do think the pastor should forfeit his state issued marriage license, because he is in some sense performing a public function But she should be able to continue excluding gays. As for the barber shop, there is in that instance no countervailing right to religious freedom, so only the right to property must be weighed. And there is plenty of authority that a property owner’s right to discriminate – even if he has a sign saying “right of admission reserved” – is reduced to the extent he invites the business of the general public.

  • terence grant

    Michael, the fact that the government announces that it is setting up a commission to look into whether cannabis should be legalised does not mean that it is legal to smoke cannabis until further notice.Also,one has to remember that the church in announcing that it is examining the issue of same-sex marriages states in unambiguous language that “”any decision and subsequent action….MUST AWAIT THE OUTCOME OF ONGOING PROCESS OF ENGAGEMENT”.How on earth can anyone seriously believe that she after reading this statement thought that she was free to enter into a same-sex marriage?I think that Pierre and his sister are clutching at straws.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Prof MO,

    Will it be legally valid
    for a parent to write a will that say excludes a child purely on the basis that the child is homosexual (based on the parent’s religious convictions)?

  • Michael Osborne

    Terence, let me take up your analogy. Suppose that the DOJ had issued guidelines instructing prosecutors not to prosecute cannabis offences while the law commission was debating legalisation. Don’t you think that any prosecutions that followed would be vulnerable to challenge?

    P.S. Do you know if there was in fact a clear prohibition prior to the 2008/2005 resolutions?

  • terence grant

    That would be different but I have no desire to indulge in idle conjecture and consequently must point out that there is nothing in Pierres article that suggests that anything along those lines happened. I mean, you’re not seriously suggesting that the church said something along the lines of:”Well go ahead with your same-sex marriage in the meantime and get a divorce if things don’t go your way?”
    Are you?

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    If this is true – it’s fucking mad!

    Barbaric textbooks handed out in Saudi Arabian schools teach children how to cut off a thief’s hands and feet under Sharia law, it has emerged.

    The shocking books, paid for and printed by the Saudi government, also tell teenagers that Jews need to be exterminated and homosexuals should be ‘put to death’.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077658/The-Arabic-textbooks-children-chop-hands-feet-Sharia-law.html#ixzz2UW7d9oay

  • terence grant

    The Church told her and other ministers to await its decision on same-sex marriage. She disobeyed and got fired for her disobedience/for trying to pressurise her church into dropping its longstanding opposition to same-sex marriages.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Maggs

    “Will it be legally valid
    for a parent to write a will that say excludes a child purely on the basis that the child is homosexual (based on the parent’s religious convictions)?”

    Yes, I think so. Wills are made every day based upon what the law would see as irrational prejudice, e.g., giving the family business to a son rather than a daughter based on the sexist assumption that men are better than women at running businesses. Can you imagine the consequences if the state or the courts were to re-write every will that reflects unfair or arbitrary prejudice in one form or another?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Terence

    Please elucidate why you think my analogy is inapposite. On that analogy, the guideline I hypothesise would not, of course, be legalising cannabis. It would not be a message to users – go ahead and smoke. The effect of which would rather be to suspend prosecutions. Why would a prosecution in spite of that suspension not be vulnerable to challenge? And if so, what is the material difference in casu?

  • terence grant

    Michael,there is nothing in Pierres article that suggests that the church suspended its existing position and led ministers to believe that they were ,until a decision, was reached entitled to go ahead and marry their same-sex partners. Had this been the case the church would not have issued a directive instructing ministers that THEY MUST AWAIT THE OUTCOME OF THE ON-GOING PROCESS OF ENGAGEMENT. It seems to me abundantly clear that the church was in effect saying:”Do not for a moment think that the fact that we are examining our position means you are free to go ahead and get married to your same-sex partners. YOU ARE TO AWAIT THE OUTCOME OF THE ON-GOING PROCESS OF ENGAGEMENT. Do you have another explanation as to what this directive was trying to say/convey . If so kindly share it with me.

  • terence grant

    By the way, you’re starting to sound like you have a potato in your mouth.

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 28, 2013 at 16:47 pm

    LOL Terence,

    “By the way, you’re starting to sound like you have a potato in your mouth.”

    I wonder who Prof MO was referring to when he wrote :

    (May 27, 2013 at 13:16 pm) : “But it seems to me that this is of small concern to those bored by legal analysis, and find trade in insult and invective more satisfying.”

    He’s probably now thinking : “Terence must be mad or drunk. The fucking twit!” :P

  • terence grant

    Maggs, i’m sure Michael needs your help as badly as the world needs another folk-singer!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • terence grant

    You should have seen how rude I was to Pierres boss, Hugh Corder, at the 2005 debate on transformation in the judiciary!

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Terence

    I made clear that the Handbook cannot be read as giving ministers carte blanche. I said that the words seemed to suggest that no action would be taken, pending “engagement.” That represents a decision not to take disciplinary action for the meantime. A deviation from that pre-announced policy is probably reviewable.

    As for the putative potato, your juvenile reference signals the end of my “engagement” with you. In that, Maggs is right.

  • terence grant

    Michael, you are mistaken: you did not inform me that the words seemed to suggest that no action would be taken pending engagement and probably still not willing or able to tell me which words you are talking about.

  • terence grant

    Curiouser and curiouser! Michael tells us that the wording in the church’s statement seemed to suggest that no action would be taken pending engagement but when asked to show us exactly what led him to arrive at this conclusion departs for greener pastures!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence is right.

    It is typical of some on this blog to beat a hasty retreat, and “drop off the radar”, when Terence has argued them into a corner. I say: if you can’t stand the heat, get back in the closet!

    Thanks.

  • terence grant

    Hypocrisy of the highest order! Maggs Naidu responds to my initial post by asking me whether I am drunk or mad but later has an apoplexy when I impolitely state that the great Michael Osbourne sounds like he has a potato in his mouth .This sees the great Michael Osbourne -who apparently is more deserving of respect than me- deciding that he should have nothing further to do with an impolite person with me. Question we therefore have to is why the great Michael Osborne doesn’t seem to have a problem with Maggs Naidu telling newcomers to this column to piss off or to fuck?All that I can suggest(given the friendliness between Michael and Maggs) that the great Michael Osborne has an exaggerated sense of his own importance?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Terence, did you happen to notice the phase of the moon when Maggs was most active?

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    May 29, 2013 at 7:50 am

    Hey Goofy – do assist Terence with question 9.

    And direct him to the complaints department!

    :P

  • terence grant

    FW de Klerk Foundation replied to your comment on their link.
    FW de Klerk Foundation wrote: “Dear Terence, thank you for your comments. We must remember that the Bill of Rights encompasses a wide range of different rights. Pertinent to your argument may be section 9 of the Constitution which prohibits the State, or anyone, from unfairly discriminating against anyone on the grounds of sexual orientation. Our Constitution similarly guarantees everyone the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion. Also, in terms of section 31 of the Constitution, persons belonging to a cultural, religious or linguistic community may not be denied the right to enjoy their culture and practice their religion. This right, may, however, not be exercised in a manner that is inconsistent with another provision of the Bill of Rights. This case may be an interesting test case and balancing exercise of these rights. For more information on these, as well as other constitutional rights, please visit our website: http://www.fwdeklerk.org and http://www.cfcr.org.za.”

  • terence grant
  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    Terence is right. It stinks of rank hypocrisy to make him a pariah, just because her spices his incisive commentary with a little “hot potato” humour. Meantime, MAGGSNAIDOOO gets away with hijacking the blog to promote his PINKISH agenda, and sarcastically asking Terence whether he is (a) mad (b) drunk, or (c) both!

    Michael

  • terence grant

    Maggs, I am not going to go tell my granny that you called me a fucking moron and told to piss off.Nor am I going to tell her that you stated I’m gay and had recently come out of the closet. Instead what I am going to do is to warn you that I will lay charges of crimean injuria if you do not within 24 hours retract your comments and apologise for your behaviour. On this point I note that there was no animosity between you and me until you dismissively suggested on a public forum that I had to be drunk or mad. In short, that you intentionally provoked a verbal slanging -match and as the one doing the provoking deserved everything that you received from me. You have 24 hours,you prick.

  • terence grant

    Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    May 26, 2013 at 8:54 am

    terence grant
    May 25, 2013 at 21:55 pm

    Hey Terence,

    “Somewhere there is a gay being beaten up because of loudmouths like Maggsnaaidoo who respond abusively to their critics by telling them to piss of or by asking whether they are drunk or mad.”

    Awww – I hurt your feelings.

    Sorry about saying those things which are hurtful.

    I unconditionally retract “are you drunk or mad?”.

    And replace it with – YOU’RE A FUCKING MORON, TWIT! NOW PISS OFF AND GO COMPLAIN TO YOUR GRANNY. (p.s. Dworky and Brett will explain).

  • terence grant

    I am going to mdo to that piece -of- shit Maggs Naidu what I in 2001 did to D.A Councillor Paddy Chapple but this time I’m not going to pull any punches.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 29, 2013 at 10:00 am

    Hey Terence,

    I will unconditionally withdraw my comments and apologise if you can convincingly prove that

    a) you are not drunk or mad
    b) that your granny was not interested in your complaints
    c) you have actually laid a charge which will stick.

    Be aware that the NPA are pretty useless – they cannot even make one of 15 internal charges against Breytenbach stick, so the chances of them wanting to pursue your “crimean injuria” allegations are pretty slim.

    But nevermind – I wait patiently for your action.

    p.s. I’m really, really terrified (Brett will explain)!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs, if I may offer you some unsolicited legal advice: Offer a genune apology now – and not one subject to farcical conditions. You have humiliated Mr Grant on this blog. Now, you aggravate matters by dragging his “Granny” into a dispute that, quite frankly, is none of her concern. A court is unlikely to show any sympathy. Take your “PINKISH” agenda elsewhere, or stronger action will be probably taken against you!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 29, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Dworky,

    I deny that my conditions are “farcical” – those were intended in pursuit of a higher truth. But if you like you can assist him in his criminal endeavours (*)

    I think you owe Terence’s granny an apology – to suggest that she will so readily dismiss him without deep “grandternal” empathy is to suggest that she may be a callous and uncaring person.

    Even I feel sorry for Terence, I guess his granny will even more so. To get some help see here : http://ronniebeaver.myknet.org/

  • terence grant

    It is clear from your most recent post that you are indeed a piece of shit and are indeed in the habit of going out of your way to insult people and show them that there is nothing they can do about your rudeness; that they in fact “nothings” in your eyes. It also is clear from your most recent post that you are aware that you are at fault but believe that the NPA is too useless to hold you to account and that you therefore are free to fuck with me to your hearts content. Consequently, I am without further ado shifting our war onto Pierre de Vos’ facebook page in the hope that he upon seeing what is going on on his blog will intervene.

  • Mau

    I can suggest(given the friendliness between Dworky & Maggs) that the great Terence Grant has an exaggerated sense of his own importance?

  • terence grant

    Mau, let’s face it, the fans of this blog are like something out of the Jerry Springer show, thanks largely to Maggs Naidu,who comes across as your typical screaming-queen.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    terence grant says:
    May 29, 2013 at 10:00 am

    Might I suggest since Maggs is involved you pursue charges of ‘simian injuria’ rather than ‘crimean injuria’?

    Also, to the best of my knowledge he has no Soviet connections.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett/Terence/Other interested parties

    Are the two of you available for a meeting in Jhb (MillPark HI has a nice conference room), to discuss with others the prospects for a CLASS ACTION against the infuriating Maggs. (I draw the line at insults to my family.)

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    May 29, 2013 at 13:31 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “Also, to the best of my knowledge”

    Yeah, but your knowledge is very limited.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 29, 2013 at 13:57 pm

    Dworky,

    “(I draw the line at insults to my family).”

    So you’re related to Terence and Brett – oh happy families.

    p.s. Did you note above that Brett is impressed by Dmwangi?

    Was Dm right or what!!!

  • terence grant

    It is sad that Maggs needs so desperately to prove to himself that he is someone of significance

  • terence grant

    The secret to dealing with our attention -seeking gremlin is to pretend that it does not exist, thereby depriving it of the attention it craves so desperately. Ignore it completely and it will eventually move on to greener pastures.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    Terence, you are in principle right. I always say that oxygen is the fuel every obnoxious troll requires. Cut him off, and he dies a horrible death of suffocation!

    Thanks

  • Chris

    Is there a new resident fool on the blog?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Terence

    “It is sad that Maggs needs so desperately to prove to himself that he is someone of significance”

    Truth is, I am more sad than angry about Maggs. He once showed promise. He was young. He had a lot to learn. Yet at times showed real insight. But since being consumed by PINKIST zeal, he has gone off track. He has been reduced to making suggestive remarks about our GRANNIES. And – what is worse – fantasising about a so-called “civil union” with Dmwangi!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 29, 2013 at 15:27 pm

    Hey Terence,

    Your lawyer called me and insisted that I apologise for the things I wrote.

    So here’s my apology.

    I unreservedly apologise for asking if you are drunk or mad and for suggesting that you’re a fucking moron.

    I do hope that you will accept the apology in the spirit that it is made.

    p.s. I’m really sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your lawyer also told me to ask you if you are drunk or mad?

    He also said to tell you that you are a fucking moron.

    You really should speak to your lawyer!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    With respect, even a child could see that your so-called “apology” is not completely sincere. I must warn you that a TSUNAMI of litigation is building. Our people have had enough of your unbridled pink agenda. Nothing but sincere regret “from the heart” will save you from catastrophe!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 30, 2013 at 18:16 pm

    Well Dworky,

    What can I say – I’ve been caught out.

    I was reluctant to completely say what Terence’s lawyer said.

    But now I’m forced to, credit to the vigilant eye of our dear Dworky.

    Terence your lawyer said that if you’re offended by what he had to say, you can go tell your GRANNY!

  • terence grant

    Mikhail, the gremlin is incredibly childish and looking for attention. In addition, it is talking absolute nonsense about being contacted by my lawyer.You should ignore it.

  • terence grant

    SAUCE FOR THE GOOSE(REJECTED BY CAPE TIMES)
    I refer to the letter ”Church divided”(Cape Times, May 24).
    The letter by Reverend Professor Peter Storey totally misses the point, which is that the Church’s opposition to homosexuality is built squarely on its opposition to fornication/recreational-sex, which in turn is built squarely on the belief that we should attempt to resist and conquer our animal urges instead of surrendering to them /allowing them to get the better of us . Consequently, the church is not singling out/targeting homosexuals or discriminating against them.
    Another point worth noting is that a minister represents a church and hence has the right to rid itself of a minister who is at loggerheads with its core values and therefore no longer capable of representing it/serving as a suitable role-model.
    (Imagine for a moment a Christian priest converting to Judaism and expecting to hold onto his/her job, a Democratic Alliance representative speaking out against capitalism and merit-selection or the head of the Right-to-Know Campaign throwing his weight behind the Secrecy Bill! The mind boggles.)
    The female minister who recently got fired for informing her congregation that she was about to enter into a same-sex marriage should without any further ado move on with her life.
    Terence Grant
    Woodstock
    Terence Grant Basically the argument that the church falls back on (namely that it is opposed to recreational-sex in all its forms) is very similar to the argument that Cape Times falls back on(namely that it -which has a white editor, a white news-editor ,a white head-of- news ,a white letters-editor and a white sports-editor etcetera etcetera, and focuses on issues that are of interest to people living in white areas ,such as a lack of space at Camps Bay High School and the closure of Cinema Noveau – is catering for the top-end of the market/for upper- income people, not for Whites….that it is not its fault that the overwhelming majority of people living in Camps Bay are White…

    FW de Klerk Foundation replied to your comment on their link.
    FW de Klerk Foundation wrote: “Dear Terence, thank you for your comments. We must remember that the Bill of Rights encompasses a wide range of different rights. Pertinent to your argument may be section 9 of the Constitution which prohibits the State, or anyone, from unfairly discriminating against anyone on the grounds of sexual orientation. Our Constitution similarly guarantees everyone the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion. Also, in terms of section 31 of the Constitution, persons belonging to a cultural, religious or linguistic community may not be denied the right to enjoy their culture and practice their religion. This right, may, however, not be exercised in a manner that is inconsistent with another provision of the Bill of Rights. This case may be an interesting test case and balancing exercise of these rights. For more information on these, as well as other constitutional rights, please visit our website: http://www.fwdeklerk.org and http://www.cfcr.org.za.”

  • terence grant

    Isn’t a pity that people who love no-holds-barred sex have such a deep aversion to a no-holds-barred debate about promiscuity amongst gay men?
    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive//ldn/2009/aug/09082609

  • terence grant

    Isn’t it a pity that people who enjoy no-holds-barred sex have such a deep aversion to a no-holds-barred about promiscuity amongst gay males?

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive//ldn/2009/aug/09082609

  • terence grant
  • Maggs Naidu – Go tell your granny! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    terence grant
    May 30, 2013 at 20:26 pm

    Hey Terence,

    My lawyer wants to speak with you.

    His name is ADVOCATE BELLEM!

  • terence grant

    I note that my comment about gays being deeply adverse to no-holds-barred debates about promiscuity amongst gay males resulted in that bastion of freedom- of -speech, Pierre de Vos , unfriending me , which just goes to show that many gays are indeed every bit as intolerant and close-minded as their religious counterparts.I am reminded of Guns n Roses warning us in the song Civil War that we “should never trust freedom when freedoms in another mans hands….when everyone’s fighting for a promised land”. Sies on you Pierre, you’re a sell-out

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “[My lawyer] is ADVOCATE BELLEM!”

    With respect, is he related to Adv Ballem? Or the equally renowned Adv Bellend?

    Whomsoever it is, I will not be taking calls from these gentlemen; the Bar Rules me to speak directly with your GRANNY!

    Thanks.

  • terence grant

    Dworky, youre supposed to be denying the gremlin the satisfaction of hearing its name

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Terence, apologies, I should shut up. I just could not help speaking out in anger after he threatened a call from Adv BALLEM. But from now on, let Maggs vent his lungs into an eerily empty echo chamber: a “tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying – nothing”!

    Thanks.

  • terence grant

    Pink Nazi’s everywhere!

  • MarsWarrior

    1. The church can only be accountable to the Law of Scripture.
    2. Romans 1 clearly states that homosexual relationships are sinful (for those arguing the validity of the pre-messianic Old Testament laws).

    The words are simple, not really much interpretation needed. If you reject them, you reject Christianity. The problem with churches nowadays is that they themselves allow compromise. They re-interpret scripture to suit world trends by allowing female pastors (clearly forbidden in Scripture) and turn a blind eye to adulterous- and same-sex- relationships. What does “decide not to decide mean” other than “turning a blind eye”? They should bother less about interpreting Scripture and more about just reading it and accepting it as it is written.

  • Maggs Naidu – Pistorius didn’t know what he was doing! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    June 1, 2013 at 13:39 pm

    Dworky,

    Ballem, Bellem, Bellend – doesn’t matter.

    They will all have the same message for Terence, i.e. “GO TELL YOUR GRANNY” on steroids!

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “A former IT specialist in Australia is claiming to be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, and his partner the repentant prostitute Mary Magdalene, according to reports. …

    But Miller says he does not demand anything of those who come and listen to him speak. He claims donations are welcome, but not obligatory.

    He added: “There were lots of people in the first century who didn’t believe I was the Messiah and were offended by what I said – and in fact I died at the hands of some of them.

    “Unfortunately they didn’t learn love either and my suggestion is, even if you don’t believe I am Jesus, at least learn how to love.”

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/world/2013/05/30/australian-man-claims-he-is-jesus-christ-reincarnated-garners-followers

  • Gwebecimele

    Gwebecimele says:
    May 22, 2013 at 22:38 pm
    Unfortunately no legal template will resolve this one. What if members of this particular church decide to walk away? Did we expect the members/leaders to peep thru windows and find out what was happening at church house? Or because they did not act then, they should ignore the wedding announcement or wait until the church decides?

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2013/06/26/court-dismisses-lesbian-methodist-minister-s-case