We are often told that Jacob Zuma has a right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Some go further and argue that we are not allowed to make any adverse ethical judgment about the President of the ANC because if we did this we would be infringing on his right to a fair trial (and sometimes, sommer his right to dignity and privacy as well).
As I have argued before, this kind of reasoning is based on a complete misunderstanding of the right to a fair trial guaranteed by the Constitution. The right to a fair trial includes the right to be presumed innocent by a court until such time as the state has proven its case beyond reasonable doubt. There is no right in the Constitution not to be charged or to be presumed innocent by ordinary citizens after one has been charged.
But if we take these supporters of Jacob Zuma at their word and if we presume that they really believe only a court of law can make any value judgment about the moral character of Jacob Zuma, then we should at least expect some consistency from them. This consistency is, however, often spectacularly lacking.
Such a consistent position would require all of us not to prejudge the case against Mr Zuma and not to jump to any conclusions about either his guilt or his innocence. Instead, some of his supporters seem to have concluded that Mr Zuma is innocent, no matter what might be shown before the court. They really do not want any facts to get in the way of the perks they see glimmering on the horizon. Why bother with facts if bluster will serve you just as well.
I was therefore not surprised to read that Young Communist League (YCL) Gauteng secretary Alex Mashilo believes that a “sober judge” will scrap corruption charges against African National Congress president Jacob Zuma. According to The Times he said:
“We believe the court will be sober… No sober judge will be ruling in favour of the prosecution… The NPA [National Prosecuting Authority] has violated its own rules. There is no way that the judge can find in favour of the NPA. If the court rules otherwise … we will unleash a mass struggle campaign,” said Mashilo, explaining this meant that they would hold marches and pickets. We will mobilise all our resources to make sure the case comes to an end.”
If Mr Zuma must be presumed innocent of any wrongdoing, surely so does the NPA? Someone should tell these youngsters that it is not for the YCL or anyone else to decide how the judge should rule. I suspect Mr Mashilo is not a lawyer either, so he cannot even be said to be reverting to informed speculation. Wishful thinking is more like it.
The same argument holds for all those people who claim Mr. Zuma’s rights have allegedly been violated. Only a court of law can make a definitive finding on this matter. If a court finds that Mr Zuma’s rights have been violated and – very importantly – that such a violation has made it impossible for Zuma to receive a fair trial before an independent and impartial judge, then fair enough: we can all go home then and Mr Zuma can pack his bags for the Unions buildings instead of for Polsmoor Prison.
But a court may well find that there was no breach of Mr Zuma’s rights or that even though there might have been a breach of his rights, he will still be able to receive a fair trial. Then Mr Zuma should surely “get his day in court” to determine whether he took all that money from a convicted fraudster and did favours for him with or without the intention to be corrupt and fraudulent.
I am obviously being ironic here, because there is as slim a chance of the Youth League types accepting a court verdict against Mr Zuma and singing the praises of our independent judiciary afterward as there is of me winning the Miss World competition. (I would probably be able to pull off the interview section, explaining – as those competitors all do – how I will fight for world peace and the children, but Iet’s face it, I probably won’t be able to pull off the swimwear section of the competition….)
Reading statements like that of Mr Mashilo reminds me again what a wonderfully free country we live in. In our beautiful democracy even a youngster like Mashilo is free to make an ass of himself and be qouted respectfully in the media nevertheless. Viva democracy.
“No sober judge will be ruling in favour of the prosecution”.
Mashilo must be relieved that Judge Motata isn’t going to be presiding.
Pierre, please don’t pull off your swimwear. Especially on stage!
Well put Pierre!!!!!!
I am no political analyst but find this very entertaining. You have put into words, in a way I wish I could, the lack of insight and stupidity displayed by Zuma supporters.
I guess entertainment is all that can be made of it since this free country of ours doesn’t lend itself to any structure or consequences.
Jy maak my dag!
Pierre and your allies,
You must be getting paid lucrative bonuses to make all these adverse comments against Zuma.
I wonder who pays you for this “wonderful” job!
lindelani
Who pays you to blabber on, is the more apt question.
There you go again Prof. succumbing to the bigoted fools who lambasted you for expressing your doubts about Zapiro cartoon which left a very bad taste in the palate.
Let me succinctly explain it for you: Zuma will go to jail, only to the Union bUILDING! And to think otherwise is wishful, not the other way round, and indeed your judges are not perfect, so indeed Zuma will not get a fair trial. These judges come from a certain sector of our society which still hanker after the good old days.
I may add that most of the posters here who most probably are lawyers are from that sector and they normally hint that they believe the SCA is a better Court that the CC, your know why because the SCA is presided over by one and full of them and those incompetent fools lied to South Africa when they wrongly held, as was disputed by Hillary Squires J ,later, that Zuma had a generally corrupt relationship with Shaik.The incompetent SCA further let Scott-Crossley free because he is one of their own.
You will never fool experienced attorneys like me that the skewed bench of South Africa is impartial just conduct a research among many experienced Black attorneys and that is why you find them differing sharply with institutions created diring apartheid like the GCB.
So stop trying to fool us that these same judges are now far whereas they vigorously defended aparthed, they cant have a change of heart overnight, Prof. John Dugard tried to argue that they should rather resign that defend apartheid and his pleas fell on deaf ears, don’t think we have forgotten!
There you go again Prof. succumbing to the bigoted fools who lambasted you for expressing your doubts about Zapiro cartoon which left a very bad taste in the palate.
Let me succinctly explain it for you: Zuma will not go to jail, only to the Union bUILDING! And to think otherwise is wishful, not the other way round, and indeed your judges are not perfect, so indeed Zuma will not get a fair trial. These judges come from a certain sector of our society which still hanker after the good old days.
I may add that most of the posters here who most probably are lawyers are from that sector and they normally hint that they believe the SCA is a better Court that the CC, your know why because the SCA is presided over by one and full of them and those incompetent fools lied to South Africa when they wrongly held, as was disputed by Hillary Squires J ,later, that Zuma had a generally corrupt relationship with Shaik.The incompetent SCA further let Scott-Crossley free because he is one of their own.
You will never fool experienced attorneys like me that the skewed bench of South Africa is impartial just conduct a research among many experienced Black attorneys and that is why you find them differing sharply with institutions created diring apartheid like the GCB.
So stop trying to fool us that these same judges are now far whereas they vigorously defended aparthed, they cant have a change of heart overnight, Prof. John Dugard tried to argue that they should rather resign that defend apartheid and his pleas fell on deaf ears, don’t think we have forgotten!
Lindelani, it is rather telling that you think people hold views only because they get paid for it. I know this must come as a shock, but some people actually have principles.
Mdu, aren’t those old style apartheid judges just terrible? One of them actually acquitted Zuma of rape – I cannot recall you attacking him then for being an apartheid judge. Was that perhaps because he ruled in a way that you liked? And all the judges of the Constitutional Court are from the new order – yet they ruled against Zuma and Shaik – so your argument is factually wrong. Not that facts have anything to do with it, I guess.
Mdu
Are you a Zerox copy machine?
AB
Can you be more clear, either I speak and write Greek or I am more intelligent to hold a debate with you at an inteelectual level.
Prof., Zum a had to be acquitted of his rape charges if you followed the proccedings and understood from a practical legal point of view, that judge had no other option but to find him INNOCENT!
T he reason why we don’t want Zuma to go through the similat experience, even though eventually he will be found not guilty, is because we a sick and tired of being dictated to by an ungrateful minoriy, as Tutu once rightfully observed, masquarading as an independent judiciary.
As for a Black CC finding against Zuma, the less I say about those drunkards who are sycomphatic and grateful to a certain man for having appointed them the better, and that view I share with most white attorneys that they are incompetent!
Lindelani, you must get paid to support Zuma, and I judge by your “highly intellectual” comments that it couldn’t be much.
Mdu, you’re a stuck record. Welcome to post-apartheid!
Mdu
DO NOT SUBMIT THE SAME MESSAGE TWICE, IS IT THAT DIFFICULT TO U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D??
Even Zapiro will get what he deserves…check out this link…
www dot vivafreedom dot wordpress dot com/2008/09/10/how-about-this-for-freedom-of-expression/
It still remains that Mdu you are wrong in your assumptions,somehow you let your immagination run wild there.
“Mdu, you’re a stuck record. Welcome to post-apartheid!”
“There is no right in the Constitution not to be charged or to be presumed innocent by ordinary citizens after one has been charged.”
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Thank God I disagree with Prof…
At a high risk of over-simplification, let me put it this way:
Here in South Africa if and when a court of law finds you not guilty that means you are innocent. The reason why I am saying this is because you are innocent until proven guilty. There are basically three stages here. Stage One is that of innocence. Stage Two is that of court appearance after a formal charge has been laid by a competent prosecutor. Stage Three is that of a court verdict of guilty or not guilty. As soon as the court finds you not guilty, you return to your first stage of innocence until other charges are laid and we go through the stages again. I am not a supporter of Zuma but he is innocent according to our laws and we as citizens must continue to treat him as such…
What’s wrong about supporting Jacob Zuma? Msholozi is not going down, next year he will be our president, like it or not.. he will be leading this country!!
Nothing wrong why? You can support who you like but beware of the road that leads to Zimbabwe!
Mdu, you have no factual basis for claiming that judges of the CC are drunkards. Please provide proof of your claim that they are drunkards or stop defaming them. And please check the Constitution to note the President can only appoint judges to the CC recommended to him by the JSC and that they have a limited term and are in no way dependent on the President for their job, their salaries or their pension. Your assertions in this regard are therefore also factually wrong. Once again, you demonstrate that for some Zuma supporters facts are an inconvenience to be denied, ignored or twisted – often by alluding to conspiracy theories that have never been proven and never will.
Sne, you are wrong. I will use an example to demonstrate why. The racist white youngsters who lived in the Reitz koshuis in Bloemfontein have been widely condemned for making a disgusting racist video. In the court of public opinion they have been found guilty of racism. But they have never been convicted of any crime. Does this mean their right to be presumed innocent by a court was infringed? Of course not. Sometimes ordinary people – using common sense and their own moral compass – make judgments about people on the basis of available facts that has nothing to do with the criminal justice system. The same applies to Zuma. He has not been convicted of any crime and may never be convicted but ordinary people with common sense and access to the available facts may well conclude that he is ethically challenged. This in no way affects his right to a fair trial – which includes the right to be presumed innocent by a court of law. If you cannot see the difference your analytical capabilities need some sharpening.
Pierre De Vos // Sep 10, 2008 at 10:58 pm
In the court of public opinion they have been found guilty of racism. But they have never been convicted of any crime.
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Thank you very much Prof for your response.
You will notice, upon a quick but objective perusal of my post to which you respond, that I was talking about the right to be presumed innocent after one has been charged. In fact, the good thing about this is that I was actually quoting from you. Indeed you are right when you assert that one only has access to the right to be presumed innocent only if one is one of the people to whom the right in section 35 of the Constitution has been conferred. This was concurred to by one of the regular and very erudite bloggers here called Anonymouse who also happens to be currently a magistrate by the way.
The situations to which you allude are definately not anologous as I have submitted above due to the following:
1. I was talking about a court of law and you are talking about a court of public opinion;
2. I was referring to being presumed innocent after being charged, arrested, detained (basically after one has qualified as one of the receipients of the rights in s35), and you are talking (given your example) about people who were never charged, arrested, or detained or at least you omitted to have regard to this in your response;
3. I was talking about law and you are talking about common sense and moral compass.
4. I was talking about court judgments and you are talking about citizen judgments which have nothing to do with the criminal justice system.
In conclusion Prof either you completely misconstrued my submission or you used a completely different scenario to the one in context with the result that your argument is very strong but it is completely misplaced.
Pierre De Vos // Sep 10, 2008 at 10:47 pm
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It is saddening to find legal practitioners who engage themselves in conduct which is calculated, in the sense of its consequences, to bring the legal profession into disrepute.
If an experienced practitioner could make such allegations about the highest court in the Republic without reference to any source of evidence or facts is extremely disappointing at best. If a practitioner is privy to such information and does not make it public in order to vindicate confidence in the criminal justice system in which he plays an active role, puts him in the same boat as those Apartheid judges to whom Mdu was referring and who were pleaded to by Prof John Dugard to resign. From this point of view, Mdu is the same as those judges to whom he refers in his post and I would not be surprised to be told that he gets emotional in court and shouts at the witnesses or at least is not courteous to the witnesses.
I plead with Mdu to have respect for the legal profession for the sake of those who are practitioners or are in regular contact with it in their work. There have been complaints from other practitioners like general practitioners or doctors who had to wait in court corridors only to be told by the prosecutor that the case was postponed to another date by the defence. The good doctor cancelled his appointments with his patients for the day to be in court only to be told that his services will not be required. Based on your submission Mdu I will presume that you are one of those legal practitioners who lack professional courtesy. Please respect the legal profession…
GOOD POINT VICTOR MAHLANGU!!
WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT JACOB ZUMA IS GOING TO LEAD THECOUNTRY.
INDEED, HE DOES REPRESENT THE VOICE OF THE MAJORITY OF OUR PEOPLE.
LET’S ACCOMPANY HIM TO THE UNION BUILDING.
lindelani
Does your boss know you surf the internet during working hours?
How does that fit in this debate?
In any event, who are you to ask me that?
lindelani
Debate? You do not debate, you state your crony Zumas point of view and are closed for debate. All this during working hours, dont you have your own internet connection?
Mdu – “As for a Black CC finding against Zuma, the less I say about those drunkards who are sycomphatic and grateful to a certain man for having appointed them the better, and that view I share with most white attorneys that they are incompetent!” … This view of yours, especially the last bit about ‘most white attorneys’ is preposterous, to say the least. When the CC finds in your favour, then “Jabulani!” But when it finds against you, for your own stupidity, then this kind of nonsense. Fact is, you are missing the point altogether. These guys are actually saying: “Well, this judge, he looks like Van der Merwe, a real sober guy that will find in favour of Zuma … but … if he goes against us, … we will unleash a mass action never heard of before in this country! We will eliminate all those opposed to the idea of Zuma becoming the next president!” … If this does not amount to a holding down of Justicia so she could be ravished, then I do not know what does.
AB – is that perhaps why lindelani sometimes use the psuedonymn ‘Stalin’?
Prof: I will say what I always say about these blogs.
There are two camps in the Zuma debacle: those who support him blindly and those who despise him with all their might.
They all have one flaw: they will do and say anything to defend their positions.
One side believes he will have had a fair trial only if he is acquitted in the courts and the other feels he will have a fair trial only if he is convicted. Both sides seem to feel that the courts are at the others mercy. One side is threatening violence; the other is insisting that somehow a Zimbabwe like situation will occur in South Africa (is this not a threat to destabilise the country). One side hides behind the masses and the other hides behind morals.
The rape case is an example of this. Before the rape trial we had the same scenario. People who despised Zuma wanted “Justice”; those who loved him said he was being persecuted. Come the verdict: Zuma was now morally guilty in the public eye to those who asked for “justice”; those who supported him changed their colours and felt the courts were now their saviours.
Are we not are back in the same situation.
Who is actually raping justice? All of us. Are we not all nudging and pushing our own way to get the verdict we want.
Zuma has been to court many times and has never disputed or rubbished any findings by the courts whether in favour or against him and yet he is raping Justice.
We must all be careful what we wish for. It might just happen.
Thomas
Sorry but your analogy of only two groups is wrong, there are three groups; your two as mentioned and a third that do not care if he is guilty or not as long as due process is followed and Lady Justice respected in the process. Because someone belongs to one of your two extreme groups it doesn mean we are all extremists. We (third group) is pointing at the dangers of overtly emotional and loyal support for an individual even at the potential cost of our freedom and liberty!
It’s been a while since I posted, but after reading through the comments and realizing the opportunities, my thoughts they linger and my fingers they type in accordance, even if they where initialy guided by the debate, those thoughts deteriorate by the readings of bloggers such as the L factor, my God! My father once forced me to record our conversation, when I was a young man, he said son, it’s time you actually listed to the shit coming out of your mouth.
I wish Lindelani that your father is as good to you as mine was to me, because you are one resentfull son of a bitch.
Thomas – While one has to agree with your comment in broad terms, the following remark needs closer scrutiny. … “Zuma has been to court many times and has never disputed or rubbished any findings by the courts whether in favour or against him and yet he is raping Justice.” … What has he been to court for at the numerous occasions you mention (the ‘rape saga’ aside foor the moment)? Only to bring nonsensical and frivolous applications, and to avoid his day in court he so yearned for when the NDPP first decided to charge Shaik alone. Applications which he knew, or should have known (seen the caliber of his defence team), will be unsuccessful, and merely amounts to a buying of time so that he could be elected as President. That boiled down to an abuse (‘rape’ too hars?) of the justice system. … And yes, it is true that he has never himself ‘rubbished any findings by the courts’, but for that he has his ‘Dogs of War’, i.e. the other ANC leaders, ANCYL, Cosatu and SACP to do it for him. And he, as the exalted leader, has done or said nothing to stop this nonsense, except for occasionally singing “Awuleth Umshini wami” after addressing (never criticising) his supporters outside court. … So he has, through his own agencies, actually ‘rubbished’ the judicial system every time a decision went against him, and … so has he threatened it if the prosecution against him is not dropped. For a leader to turn his head at such occasions, and sometimes to add fuel to the fire by singing a revolutionary song at a time his followers so clearly call for a ravishing of the criminal justice system, makes him guilty of ‘pulling the trigger’ (or at least aiming to do so) so to speak. That is what Zapiro’s picture is all about. Will Zuma ‘go for it’; or, will he call off his ‘Dogs of War’ and by calling for respect the justice suystem and the Constitution?
If Zuma is so bloody innocent (like he and his followers so dearly want us to believe), let him face his day in court – and if he is acquitted, let him be saluted as the next President, but, if he is convicted, let him rot in gaol.
Jeez, “world peace” and “resenful son of a bitch” used on the same comments’ page…
We surely live in interesting times!!!
The longer I’m away from South Africa (sadly), the more I come to realise that politics there seems to be stuck in an adolescent stage of development.
Ad hominem attacks of the person instead of policy, vitriolic mumblings by persons more suitable to organising tea parties than real political parties and tit-for-tat name-calling in the fashion of play-ground five year olds.
In between all this furious smoke and noise, people die from AIDS, violent crime and indifference. And those “called” to lead dither and do nothing.
Perhaps one day the voters will wake up and harken to the mess their leaders are making, and shove them through the door of history.
We surtainly do Harrold, but not nearly as interesting as the time the big shots, the corruptors, the bribers, Thint, John Stratton ect actually buys themselves a country with the proceeds of crime. This is the message that cannot pass through the sculls of the average JZ believer.
It should be resentfull.
We certainly do Harrold, but not nearly as interesting as the time the big shots, the corruptors, the bribers, Thint, John Stratton ect actually buys themselves a country with the proceeds of crime. This is the message that cannot pass through the sculls of the average JZ believer.
It should be resentfull.
Of course its adolecent…. South africa is a teenager after all, one that seems to be becoming rebellious and cheeky.
Soon she must be taken in hand or she might get into serious trouble in the future, if not already.
Frank Cobain, a true diplomat for SA in your chosen place of asylum, how convenient shouting from the pavillion at the fighters inside the ring, much easier
Harold
Some days I am convinced that we must let this teenager hurt itself and fall down like Zimbabwe did. Only then does it seem the electorate will wake up and start demanding and appreciating democracy. We are fighting an unstoppable mass with revenge as their first priority. Its not nice to sound this pessimistic but how else does all this make sense?
And then SA could follow the rest of Africa and wait for the Brandgelinas to adopt the children we cannot care for because the source of the beggars have turned their backs saying you brought this onto yourselves.
Friend
These masses are too brainwashed with hatred to understand they are killing the goose and will one day cry and say please help we did not know what we were doing. Can you be so impaired as to not realize that??
Not you,” friend”, the masses!
But there’s a light AB, I’m not voting ANC and I’m defenately going to vote in this democracy of ours
Anonymouse: Has JZ not used the very justice system to fight his case. You think that he is using “nonsensical and frivolous applications, to avoid his day in court”. How is he raping the justice system? Has he not used the justice system in all of this? Has he broken the law by going to the courts? Change the laws and procedures of the courts and then complain. You want justice to be seen to be done but not practiced. Why make the laws when you don’t want them to be used. Zuma should now throw away all his rights and his lawyers should not challenge the NPA in the courts as this is now seen as an act of rape. You are arguing as if his challenges have been unlawful. Are they?
As I said before; Be careful what you wish for. You might need the very same laws in future.
By the way read what Zuma said about our justice system to UJ students before you make statements about Zuma turning his head away from the situation.
AB: If there is a third group it’s the one that does not care at all; he goes to court, he doesn’t; isn’t an issue with this group. The last part of your comment suggests that you are not in this group.
By the way AB: What potential cost is there to our freedom and liberty.
Friend
I am also voting but what worries me is that the masses will continue to support the name ANC irrelevant the consequences. We have all become so blunt towards crime, value of life, values and corruption that we think it is normal! We live in a very abnormal society, and the masses will only be content once everything is destroyed. Sorry but I do not believe this country has the money/will/time to uplift the majority of our populace into,thinking responsible citizens that will demand excellence.
Thomas
One of these days you will shout foul, but only with time, because we have become a Zim.
Sne,
I have tried several times before (see some of my earlier posts below) to bring your point home but it has fallen on deaf ears. In substance, is there any difference between Alex Mashilo’s comment and the following comment by Prof in one of his earlier posts:
“Yes, in front of an impartial judge not cowered into a blubbering mass by threats of ANC thugs, Mr Zuma will be exposed as a dishonest and shady man who repeatedly lied to save his bacon.”
The only difference I see is that Prof did not go a step further and told us what would happen if “an impartial judge” does find in favour of Zuma.
Bongs // Aug 1, 2008 at 8:19 am
Prof, you are a constitutional law expert and your blog is looking at issues mainly from a constitutional law perspective – therefore we expect your commentary to attempt to embrace the ‘constitutional’ values. If that is not the case, commentators like Jon Qwelane would raise the very same argument (freedom of expression) when attacked on their ‘controversial’ views.
Bongs // Aug 4, 2008 at 2:12 pm
“Yes, in front of an impartial judge not cowered into a blubbering mass by threats of ANC thugs, Mr Zuma will be exposed as a dishonest and shady man who repeatedly lied to save his bacon.”
Prof, with the above quote, you are falling into the same trap of ‘dictating’ to the judiciary to find against Zuma thereby undermining its independence = rule of law. You are forgetting that all of the questions you have asked have not been answered by Zuma. So, in your mind whatever explanation/answers Zuma would give should no be believed. If a judge trying Zuma would believe same, he/she would have succumbed to Zuma supporters’ threaths!
Quite honestly I can no see any difference between you (as a supporter of the State) and Zuma’s supporters! It is sad for a law professor to stoop this low.
Don’t be a doomsay AB, if we have indeed lost all other things, we cannnot lose hope, this situation is not hopeless, the people who parade in front of the courts doesn’t represent the mojority, the majority wants order restored, that’s my hope. Even if thats not the outcome, I don’t believe I will regret having hope.
Friend
I get scared when I read my own posts, I can not believe I, this very optimistic individual, are being so negative! I hope for a miracle, but I too will keep on hoping! Thanks!
AB: There is hope. The fact that we can write as much Crap as we want about leaders and our opinions are not censored gives me hope. The day we are told what to do and say is when we must start losing hope.
Thomas – Yes, he (JZ) has ‘used’ the justice system in bringing these applications, but in an abusive manner (because they are frivolous and because he is playing a game of delays – at the expense of taxpayers – just to become President before his trial can go to court). His legal team has already indicated that, shopuld tomorow’s ruling go against him, they will appeal, if need be, all the way to the CC again. And if the whole matter goes against him on that point, they will start a whole new application, namely one to have the prosecution permanently stayed. And if that goes against him, they will appeal, again right up to the CC if need be. Such an approach clearly amounts to an abuse of the system, no? The CC has warned against exactly this in the Mauritius judgment – before awarding an order of costs against him. So I still say, he is ravishing the legal system, just because he and his supporters have lots of money (and even has the state revenue fund for support) to delay his matter until at least he becomes President. But, if you have read my post carefully, that is not my only argument that he is on the verge of ravishing the justice system. He uses his supporters’ unfounded criticism of and pressure on the jsutice system, and even adds fuel to their abbusive cries, to have the whole matter againsyt him derailed. Here, at least, we don’t have the ineffectivity of the system to blame, but only the political motives of the scoundrells involved in bashing the system.
Sne’
I posted something to you at 11:27. It appears that my post is still under moderation! – at least that is what I see on my screen. Is Prof getting tired of my rhetoric??!!
Unlike the UK educated Mbeki,
“One of the protesters said Zuma offered hope to those struggling with poverty and a lack of development”.
Bongs // Sep 11, 2008 at 12:46 pm
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Prof is democratic. He would never do that without proper reasons. He has my voice of confidence. Maybe the volume of your post caused the moderation to take time… It happens to the best of us…
Sne,
I have moderated my own post by, inter alia, removing my previous posts. I will simply list them hereunder.
“Sne,
I have tried several times before (see some of my earlier posts below) to bring your point home (that Zuma is innocent until proven guilty and he should be treated as such, especially by the likes of proffessors of Constitutional Law!) but it has fallen on deaf ears. In substance, is there any difference between Alex Mashilo’s comment and the following comment by Prof in one of his earlier posts:
“Yes, in front of an impartial judge not cowered into a blubbering mass by threats of ANC thugs, Mr Zuma will be exposed as a dishonest and shady man who repeatedly lied to save his bacon.”
The only difference I see is that Prof did not go a step further and told us what would happen if “an impartial judge” does find in favour of Zuma.
My previous relevant posts:
Aug 7, 2008 at 9:17 am;
Aug 6, 2008 at 2:39 am;
Aug 4, 2008 at 2.12 pm
Aug 4, 2008 at 4:24 pm
lindelani maseko // Sep 11, 2008 at 1:13 pm
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Of course he does. Zuma is a quintessential example of what should be done to avoid poverty and lack of development without having to go the long and winding legally acceptable way.
Zuma is very popular with the poverty stricken people for the simple reason. Poverty stricken people want a quick fix to their problems and Zuma has shown them exactly how it is to be acquired.
Mbeki on the other hand is capitalistic and a realist. He believes that the way to help people is to empower them with information. He does not buy into the idea of just giving poverty stricken people quick fixes when the problem of poverty is so vast and affects people in all aspects of their lives.
You must remember that the ANC government in 1994 merely opened doors for people to come in and make themselves at home and benefit from the democracy. Unfortunately people, especially those to whom Jacob Zuma is very popular, believe that the government should give them hand outs instead of getting up and making something of themselves. This is not the Mbeki thinking.
Zuma supporters will realise later on that the ANC leader has got nothing to offer them but by then he would have achieved his political goals, provided things go his way. There is only one way out of poverty and that it for the receipients to get up and push the boundries of poverty. The government can only go so far and the rest has to be done by the poverty stricken people.
The first step, which Mbeki was advocating for, is for people to acquire information. It is public knowledge that those areas where there is low levels of literacy experience more poverty than those where people are more learned. The results are that the government officials will utilise the money for unlawful purposes or it will not be spent with the result of the underspending in the budgets. A classical example of this is the Eastern Cape. This province has got high levels of poverty stricken people and it also has high levels of underspending. On the other hand, more affluent provinces like the Western Cape will tend to show that the national government allocated less money to them because they have people who are capacitated to use the money in the areas for which it was intended.
These two leaders, Mbeki and Zuma, represent the directions which South Africa could take. Either we go with the Zuma way which will of course be retrogression at its best or we take the Mbeki direction which will lead to the nation going forward.
Under Zuma, South Africa will experience the most difficult time since the advent of the Constitutional dispensation. Investors will withdraw under the threat of fraud, corruption, etc. South Africa is beyond the stage of leaders like Zuma where the role played in the struggle is emphasised instead of the capability of the leader concerned. Zuma would be an idea leader in places like North Korea or in other communist countries. We are not a communist country but a capitalistic one.
In conclusion, there are basically two results which can be expected from the Zuma presidency. Either he will betray the poverty stricken people who are standing by him and take the country forward or he will take the country down the Zimbabwean style…
In order to avoid both, the third alternative should be opted for; He should just quit the presidential race and a new leader who has the ability to take the country forward has to be appointed in his place…
lindelani – “Unlike the UK educated Mbeki,
‘One of the protesters said Zuma offered hope to those struggling with poverty and a lack of development’.” … How does he manage to do that? By singing “Bring my machine gun”? … Ha, ha, ha!!! … He does not even know how to aim and fire a machine gun accurately. … Instead of believing beetroot and garlick can cure aids, he believes circumsition and taking a shower will always prevent it. …Then he is seen with this part of the populace, … sharing their views and plight, … then he is seen with quite another part of the populace, … sharing their views and plight. … Every now and then he is borrowed a few hundred grand rands, … and that without interest, … and he still cannot meet all his payments on debt that he owes. … Honestly, one who believes that he offers hope to those struggling with poverty and a lack of development must have an IQ more or less equal to that of a snail.
Bongs – You might be right on Prof’s take on an ‘impartial judge’; but then again, in the light of the threats (direct or implied) against the justice system and some judges by JZ’s stooges, it is going to take some doing for a judge to convincingly reason that his (possible! – not probable) finding in favour of Zuma has not resulted into his/her having been “cowered into a blubbering mass” and that his/her judgment is sound in law.
Lindelani Maseko..
Thanks my brother, don’t worry about those fools who are busy critisizing JZ..infact they are jealous of him, because he is uneducated, but that man is talented in terms of leadership, he is intelligent and he was born to lead..!!
Victor Mahlangu – Bah!
Victor Mahlangu // Sep 11, 2008 at 2:17 pm
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Zuma is the most selfish leader I have ever come across with. He is prepared to let the country go down with him or at least to let the economy take a nose dive in order for him to be the President.
Political collusion or not, the guy should just give up the presidency in the interests of the country. Every thinking South African knows that the guy does not have what it takes to be the first gentleman of this country from a moral point of view (so far).
He may be legally entitled from tomorrow but the Presidency goes beyond just the legal requirements. If his memory served him well he would recall the reason why he had to be fired by Mbeki as his Deputy. The office that he wants so much is unfortunately too much for him. He should just give up…
The future is bleak,with Zuma at the helm of the ANC(will be leader of the nation), we are definatly guaranteed of an unpleasant five to ten years,perhaps more.
“Zimification”
“We will march with him [Zuma] to the Union Buildings. Any force that tries to block our way, we will eliminate.” Julius Malema(www.mg.co.za)
“Zimification”
Sne // Sep 11, 2008 at 1:59 pm
A clear, lucid and unemotional explanation of present and future SA scenarios.
Bravo, Sne!
VoVo – “Zimification” – I like that word. It rhymes with ‘nullification’ (‘rape’?) of the justice system and everything that is good and civilized, but I hope it doesn’t get to that. With Julius, one is never sure whether ‘kill’ = ‘eliminate’, and I hope Brutus catches up with him soon.
i suppose it is easy for us those of us who are fortunate enough to be employed, etc to have a viewpoint on poverty. and i always think, if i was very very poor, and democracy had offered me nothing to date, would i not be impatient and fed up? everyone can tell you that poverty eradication takes time, and that we can’t expect to recover from apartheid overnight. but what do you do if you are constantly suffering, how long do you wait? as keynes famously remarked “in the long run, we are all dead”. so the alleged “masses” grasp at straws for short term gains, but in the long run? a potential mess of catastrophic proportions. what can we do?? i think zuma and his camp are tapping into this, among other things. the way forward is a slow arduous journey based on education, investment, TOLERANCE, etc. i imagine. but (understandable) impatience could well lead us on a very dark path.
@ prof
There seems to be a lack of constistency on your side prof. It is clear that you are applaying double standards on the case surrounding Jacob Zuma.
Your eallier artcle on the “The dangerous constitutionalisation of our politics” said
“The debate that is now raging about the publication of a Zapiro cartoon – which depicts Mr Jacob Zuma on the verge of raping a woman representing the justice system while his allies hold her down – is potentially a HEALTHY MANIFESTATION OF DEMOCRACY IN ACTION….” now prof because of your hate for Zuma you cloud your judgement by lambasting all those that in support of JZ as undemocratic and a threat to the independence of the courts. You say “Reading statements like that of Mr Mashilo reminds me again what a wonderfully free country we live in. In our beautiful democracy even a youngster like Mashilo is free to make an ass of himself and be qouted respectfully in the media nevertheless. Viva democracy.” In your eallier article you support Zapiro because he is one of you. Hates Zuma and will draw any thing to rubbish JZ’s name. Even going to the legnth of deforming JZ as a rapist. In your constitutionaly correct eyes,all of us should believe this is right as it represents the HEALTHY MANIFESTATION OF DEMOCRACY IN ACTION. But when one Mashilo supports Zuma to the same legnth of vowing to die for him and clearly informing our people that before a sober judge JZ will triumph, he is in no doubt making an ass of himself. This to me is a clear selection and baised analysis from your side. How about a man drawing another raping a female under this environment of high rape rate, Zapiro making an ass of himself.
NB: Tomorow we will converge in Mgungundlove to support JZ in our thousands. For better or for worse HANDS OFF JACOB ZUMA HANDS OFF!!!
Maurice // Sep 11, 2008 at 2:50 pm
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Thank you ma’am…
Thanks Victor Mahlangu.
Bongs
Blogging software often have some ways of trying to determine whether a post might be spam, as such certain posts are automatically logged as awaiting moderation. Otherwise we end up with lots of viagra adverts!
Typically these would be posts containing certain types of links, or maybe even certain word combinations, I’m not sure of the details, but I doubt it has anything to do with prof moderating you personally.
This is one reason why people strip out the dots from links, because this (the dots) is how the software can determine whether what is being posted is a link.
T – “NB: Tomorow we will converge in Mgungundlove to support JZ in our thousands. For better or for worse HANDS OFF JACOB ZUMA HANDS OFF!!!”
How apt to, on an occasion like this, convene at the Kraal of that other coniving, untrustworthy, people-killing Zulu, Dingaan.
It is sad to learn that Mbeki and the D.A (his undercarpet allies) have decided to send troops to go and shoot innocent protesters, thus infringing their constitutional rights of association and speech.
Last time I checked everyone has the right to free speech in this country even your mavelous Shapiro (cartoonist) have these rights. It is sad to learn that Zuma supporters don’t have these rights.
If they exercise them troops are sent to arrest and shoot them down, what a “wonderful” act from the champions of democracy?
Anonymouse // Sep 11, 2008 at 3:55 pm
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LOL!!! Thanks for the laugh. It must be remembered also that he is the one who, jointly with Mhlangan, killed Shaka. Thereafter, Dingaan killed Mhlangan to become the paramount chief of the Zulus.
I guess it is true that history has a very strange habit of repeating itself. I wonder whether this will not mean the end of chief Zuma subsequent to the presiding officer dismissing his action with costs…
How wonderful will that be…
On a more personal note Anonymouse… There are three posibilities as far as you are concerned… Either you are very erudite, very old or both…
Sne and Prof
I have been analyzing your interesting arguments over the section below as cited by and responded to by Sne from Prof’s main post (September 10th, 2008 by Pierre De Vos) above:
There is no right in the Constitution not to be charged or to be presumed innocent by ordinary citizens after one has been charged.
You are both raising correct and important points of law and value judgement but are slightly missing each other somewhere. My understanding of the statement and the resultant argument above is that it is divided into two – the first one being how the courts of law must view and treat a person charged of committing an offence and, the second one being, how people in general tend to view and treat a person charged of committing an offence. This, I presume, relates to Zuma’s claim in public and in court papers that by charging him with corruption (and the processes followed to prove this) the NPA has infringed on his right to be presumed innocent in terms of section 35(3) (h) of the constitution. The first part of the statement counters this claim to the effect that there is no provision made anywhere in the constitution including through the same section that one cannot be charged if there are reasonable grounds to suspect that s/he is involved in an act that in terms of the law of the Republic constitutes a misconduct that warrants such an action to be taken simple for fear of violating such a suspect’s section 35 rights. And this is correct as the CC has since found against Zuma (Case CCT 92/07) that “that Mr Zuma is suspected of alleged corruption is the truth; it does not signify his guilt. His right to be presumed innocent under section 35(3) (h) remains untrammeled”. To this far, I see no dispute between Prof and Sne.
Prof, in line with the second part of the statement, correctly, in my view, states that this section, only binds the courts of law to view and treat a suspect as such and not the general public (ordinary citizens in his statement). This means that the ordinary citizens based on their value judgments (court of public opinion), often / tend and do find and hold a person guilty even before he is found as such by the court of law and so even after he has been acquitted by the same court of law, hence the Reitz case example in his response.
Sne, your response, in my view, focused more on the first part of the statement which is applicable to courts of law but not legally enforceable upon the general public. And I think you have articulated it correctly. But the only problem I find in your initial response to Prof which justifies his (// Sep 10, 2008 at 10:58 pm) response is the last statement that “I am not a supporter of Zuma but he is innocent according to our laws and we as citizens must continue to treat him as such….” This appears to be (a) extending the legally enforceability of section 35(3) (h) on courts to the general public which is incorrect or (b) to assume that once the courts say one is guilty then everybody must suspend their value judgment, based on which they could and still do find and hold such a person otherwise. This is not to suggest that this is your understanding of the applicability of this section 35 Sne as opposed to how the general public based on their value judgement tends to reach different conclusions contrary to the courts; it is my view of your response to Prof’s initial and main post which initiated this debate. Would you agree with this analysis?
lindelani maseko // Sep 11, 2008 at 4:07 pm
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It is sad to learn that people who pose as qualified attorneys can misrepresent facts like this. I guess the time they have spent in the banking sector has cost them their touch in respect of their legal training…
What the f###ck do you know about the Zulu culture you Xhosa bastard?
Pleae leave our culture and history alone and focus in the real issues at hand. that’s not a disrespect it’s a fact!
Secondly, stay away from our culture and focus on your Xhosa culture – and ask yourself why you Xhosas have English surnames?
So, you think your Xhosas can run this country while they have such an immoral history. You (Xhosas) are the disgrace to the Black community at large.
Now let’s do what we do best and focus on current socio-economic issues affecting the majority of our black people
Lindelani
Your intense hatred for others is disturbing!
I don’t know what happened to make you feel this way, but you’re living proof that whites aren’t the only racists around!
You have a superiority complex, very characteristic of a Zuma supporter.
Anonymouse // Sep 11, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Junius subsequently killed himself, failing to achieve
anything meaniful in his political career.
lindelani maseko // Sep 11, 2008 at 4:18 pm
What an idiot.
touchy, touchy, are we through the skin there my lovely, I knew it was a matter of time.
Lindelani, I want to meet you one day, seriously, as a friend
Dari,
If that’s a compliment thanks!
Mdanisi Xitlonyi // Sep 11, 2008 at 4:12 pm
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Well, I am thrilled to learn that there are still some people out there who have the ability to analyse without resorting to emotions and strawman (putting words into someone’s mouth and then rebutting those words). Yes your analysis is correct. Thank you very much to you and Prof Pierre for helping me have another look at the relevant section. Let me end by saying…
“Your conceptual command of thought is analytically proficient.”
“If you don’t leave Jacob Zuma alone we will make this country ungovernable. If you want war we will give you war”
Anonymouse // Sep 11, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Junius subsequently killed himself, failing to achieve
anything meaniful in his political career.
lindelani maseko // Sep 11, 2008 at 4:18 pm
What an idiot.
lindelani – “What the f###ck do you know about the Zulu culture you Xhosa bastard?” … Who was that blow aimed at? Ulibambe lingashoni wena!
Sne – “It must be remembered also that he is the one who, jointly with Mhlangan, killed Shaka. Thereafter, Dingaan killed Mhlangan to become the paramount chief of the Zulus.” … That is actually what I was referring to – a few months ago on a blog like this, I also made the comparison between JZ and Dingaan. But, for the right-wingers, the reference to Dingaan (in the JZ sense) might also jolt memory back to what reportedly happened to Piet Retief – but that is just an interesting spin-off, not origially intended, but aposite, or so I think. Then, as a further interesting spin-off, I was wondeing whether lindelani et al would see that ‘Mgungundlove’ was misspelt. .. As for the personal remark, they do say that erudition comes with age (‘die wysheid van die grysheid’), but I see myself in neither category – thanks anyway!
lindelani – ““If you don’t leave Jacob Zuma alone we will make this country ungovernable. If you want war we will give you war” … Ooh! Now I’m really scared! … Remember last time you said that you as a ‘lawyer’ never descend into the political arena?
lindelani – “Now let’s do what we do best and focus on current socio-economic issues affecting the majority of our black people” – of course implying that the Xhosa people you refer to in this outburst are not ‘black’?
Dari – “You have a superiority complex, very characteristic of a Zuma supporter.” … I think he has an inferiority complex, which is very characteristic …
lindelani maseko -”If you don’t leave Jacob Zuma alone we will make this country ungovernable. If you want war we will give you war”
Why did you quote that? I really don’t understand why you would quote that particular quote.
Please tell me why, if I understand your meaning, you are prepared to go to war for JZ. What is it in his agenda for this country, or in his POLICIES that moves you so that you would take up arms for the man…that makes you feel that if he does not become President of our beautiful country all is lost and we should go to war with each other?
I really do want to understand
Now debate will die down because these Zuma supporters post on their bosses internet connection and dont have their own!
AB – looks like it, doesn’t it?
lindelani, some more of your true colours. He has stooped lower than we thought he was capable. Very civilized mate, I am sure your tombstone will one day state “A BIGOT rests here”. Keep up the intelligent rhetoric! “.
Can’t someone give these “see no evil, hear no evil, do no evil – but speak very evil” people a job to keep their minds off nonsensical shit?! http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2392014,00.html
Can’t someone give these “see no evil, hear no evil, do no evil – but speak very evil” people a job to keep their minds off nonsensical shit?! wwwDOTnews24DOTcom/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2392014,00DOThtml
Or, can’t someone just give them a little education so that they would think and reason beyond the level of a fifth grader?! wwwDOTnews24DOTcom/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2391982,00DOThtml
How many of his own people did Castro kill in his persuit of communist/sosialist ideals? Sorry I forgot that doesnt matter in Africa!
AB – Amandla! = Awuleth Umshini wami = Ubuntu, or at least, so it seems. Reminds me of that satirical joke: A guy gets sentenced to death for insulting Castro. Just before the final command to fire is given to the firing squad, the blindfolded man shouts: “Oh, Fidel Castro you beeg sheet.” The Commandant then ordered the firing squad to lower their rifles, took a deep puff from his Havannah cigar and said: “He, Senhor, are ya loooking for trouble he?”
LOL yip they will in “victory” still believe they wield power ala Mugabe!
http://wwwDOTnews24DOTcom/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2391896,00DOThtml
“we will do everything in our power …” The question is, what ‘power’ do they have – only that power that the right thinking people of this country by their sound and sober senses allow them to have. That is why the armed forces were called in to shoot at the protesters today, as lindelani laments. But that is ‘counter revolutionary’ talk – one could land up on Robben Island for even having such thoughts.
Looks like the link is now allowed, but it will not work if it is not original, so here goes
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2391896,00.html
Bunch of hooligans with no respect for anybody, looting and breaking but according to the employees on this site its all Mbekis fault for trying to retain law and order! Why dont they just put their plan on the table and do what they want instead of slowly slowly killing the golden goose? Once we are all down and out will these idiots find their own Tsvangirai to lead them back to normality! The sooner it happens the sooner we can start rebuilding!
AB – looks like you were right, those who surf the internet on their employers’ time and bandwidth seem to have quieted down, at least until tomorrow?! I just hope that lindelani (aka Stalin, anonymous, T?) does not suffer a major coronary infarct or a stroke in reaction on my posts above, as I would rather expect (in?)appropriate responses to my ripostes above. Makes life more interesting. Whatever, .. what is your feeling on Chris Nicholson’s judgement tomorrow? Is it predictable?
LOL! http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_2392085,00.html
Where should I go? … Ha! … Go to Hell! Go directly to Hell. Do not pass ‘Go’. Do not collect Zim$ 200 on your way there!
LOL!
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_2392085,00.html
Where should I go? … Ha! … Go to Hell! Go directly to Hell. Do not pass ‘Go’. Do not collect Zim$ 200 on your way there!
Anon
As a layman tomorrow will be crucial to our democracy in my opinion. I would never like to believe a judgement to be predictable but this one is crucial, in a way I hope it goes against Zuma so we can fathom the threat these henchmen pose. On the other hand I would like this whole thing to be put behind us so our country can move on. I have no real prediction here, do you?
How can you send our brother to hell? Forget the thousands he has killed he is our brother! Those are the values my friend, its F#@king scary!
AB, no I don’t – but I will go for your former proposition rather than the latter – because we will not move on, only down, if the judgment is in favour of JZ. Many other criminals out there who are just waiting for a precedent that, a little too long to take a decision, a little too much indiscretion by the NPA, and: “Crime does pay after all!” … Anyway, they have plenty other things to keep them busy with should the judgment go against JZ tomorrow. Like changing street names, because the city names fall outside their jurisdiction! http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2392090,00.html
Will ‘Proes’ straat now become ‘Crunt’ street? Just because the former is too Boere colonialist; and, English colonialist is better!? Couldn’t resist that. But now I’m off to bed – a long wait until tomorrow.
LOL cheers mate speak tomorrow!
Couldn’t resist making this another century hits – but is this another 9/11?! http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2392132,00.html
Couldn’t resist making this another century hits – but is this another 9/11?!
//www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2392132,00.html
Oh, gosheroo… I see everyone of you is now either clinically depressed or incandescent with rage. And Anonymouse is about to have apoplexy. Don’t worry, guys! Tomorrow it may all be over, and then we can (thankfully) debate about something else. To be honest, I’m hoping it will go Zuma’s way; to me, that will be a happy outcome. Someone who’s that popular should be president, and may he rule with an iron mthondo. Unfortunately, the poor still have a lot to learn about what is, or isn’t possible, for government to deliver. I’m pretty confident that once the ‘new’ ANC is in office, they will sing a different tune. There still is a centre in the ANC, and that centre might well hold. At least that’s my little opinion.
Couldn’t resist making this another century hits – but is this another 9/11?!
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2392132,00.html
Clara – at least I see you have picked up the fact that I have deliberately misspelt ‘Mthondo’ when I said earlier that JZ’s new name should be (or is, among the women followers) “Mthontho we Siswe”. That was actually me baiting lindelani et al. But … tomorrow?! I’m not so sure about that ‘centre’ holding up.
Lindelani Maseko
Let me hope my brother that this is not your post, the one on Xhosas being “a disgrace to the black community at large.” Please tell me those are not your words. If they are then I’m completly disgusted at your words. To insult us like that is not at all correct it is taotaly out of order. Let me remind you of who we are and where we come from. It was 96 years ago when our forefathers gathered to kill the demon of tribalism among black africans, through the formation of our glorious liberation movement, The ANC. We came togther in unity and through many years of struggle liberated all our people, not only the Xhosa speaking but the Zulus as well. That victory Lindelani could be reversed by a single word tomoroow in PMB. Knowing were we come from and what we’ve been through we should not allow that to happen. So please whilst the Zuma case is touring us apart and whilst there might be a dirty hand from TM please do not lose focus and start putting blame on an innocent Xhosa nation.
I am a proud Xhosa but I do love and respect my brothers and sisters from the Zulu land including Zuma. I here pronounce for you to hear. IF NEEDS BE I WILL TAKE UP ARMS AND KILL FOR ZUMA!!! but I will not kill innocent civilians.
Amandla !!!
lindelani, what does the fact that President Mbeki got his degree (Masters in Economics) in England have to do with anything ? My brother has been living in england for the last 8 months, and loving it. He said society is so integrated there !
He says for the 1st time he feels like he can truelly express and debate his views and oppinions, without the people immediately attacking him or calling him a: coconut or sell out just because he’s educated, open minded and thinks independently !
I often come across postings mentioning “white judges” or “white racists”. If we as african people want to look for racists in our society, we need not look any futher then our own ethnic groups.
As you yourself illustrated in one of your earlier post, when you refered to a fellow poster as a: “Xhosa bastard” By doing so you showed, that you are just as capable of resorting to racial slurs and stereotyping as anyone else.
Here are just some of my own personel thoughts ! Lindelani you seem to be of the belief that simple because some one has the support and backing of the masses, the person is therefore fit to govern ! I’m afraid this veiw point has been proved wrong time and time again throughout ! Think of Hitler and Stalin, they experienced enormous popularity, their follower were also willing to “shoot and kill”a nd expressed undying loyalty to their leaders! However, as time often does it has show us that : WHEN EVERYBODY IS THINKING THE SAME THING, CHANCES ARE SOME OF THEM AREN’T THINKING AT ALL.
In a country like ours (OURS=Black+white+indian ect) that is so filled with unfifulled dreams, it is so easy for the dissatisfied nation to attatch all their hopes and dreams onto one man who tells them what they want to hear.
I have great respect and admiration for JZ, it is as a result of men like him that i am free today. In this respect we can once again look to history( and to our neighbour Mugabe) that often the people who are good at leading us through times of struggle are not always the best candidates to lead us at times of peace.
ALL
ATTENTION. TO THOSE WHO DOUBTED, THE MAN HAS PROVED EVERYBODY WRONG. A DEAL HAS BEEN AGREED TO IN ZIM!!! KHOSI I RESPECTFULLY BUDGE AND SAY YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG…..
VIVA TM VIVA!!!
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_2392216,00.html
Prof, I admire your principles ! You voice your oppinion, you think independently this website is a good micro example of what all of South Africa should be doing on a macro scale ! At least it’s creating dialogue !
Lindelani, you however, expose a lot of how you think, through your constant accusations and attacks on others ! For example(1) you constantly repeating the prof must be getting paid to write what he does( it is possible for people to just believe in something, without demanding bribes or kick backs).(2) You refering to other people as racists when it is you who has so far posted the most racially offencive comment.
Lindelani, i urge u to always only to express ur oppinions as ur own, and never belonging to that of a certian group of people, as i personally, would like nothing to do with them or you! I must admit I was a bit dissapointed, when i google searched your name and found thatnyou in fact are attorney, as I have, always been Proud to tell people when they asked, that i have an LLB , i thought it showed i was of a certian level of intellect! However it is now clear to me that even the most exceptionally ordinary of minds can acheive an LLB !
@ lindelani
Please explain to me how a war would make the poor of this country be any better off? I cannot think of any war, particularly not a civil war, such as you seem to wish for, that has not brought hardship and heartache to the people. And it is always the poor that are the hardest hit; the elite / rich tend to have better means to protect themselves and their families.
I also don’t understand what is wrong with being educated, or with that education having been acquired in the UK? How does the good fortune of having an education make one unfit to lead? I would think that an education in the economic or political sciences, or law, would be absolutely essential to lead a country, as one would be required to make informed decisions on complex economic, social, political and legal issues on a daily basis.
The UK, for all the injustices that country may have committed in the past, is home to some of the world’s oldest and most excellent educational institutions. I admire those who have had the good fortune to be educated there. Having lived there for a few years, I can personally attest to the fact that the UK population have an extremely high level of education, and all have access to excellent municipal services and free healthcare of an outstanding standard. The libraries, free to all, brought tears to my eyes when I thought of the dismal, underfunded, almost empty little rooms that serve as libraries here. Democratic principles are deeply ingrained in their society; when the people are unsatisfied with their government they express their displeasure by voting, not rioting.
Is this not the type of society we all want to create in South Africa? I am not saying that we should become a European society, merely that we should look to the world and learn from other countries’ successes. Equal lessons could be learnt from looking to the East, at South Korea or Singapore for example, which have uplifted their populations from among the poorest in the world to among the most economically active, educated, healthy and happy.
One thing I am sure of: we will not build the society we all dream of through war.
NM
You are posting too early for lindelani, he only log onto his companies internet connection around 10 to 9 and can only use it to 5 in the afternoon.
Haha, AB, I am smiling – the only reason I am not logging on from work today is because I am on study leave. This blog is too interesting to leave alone even when I should be absorbed in the serious business of expanding my mind! (Although, Prof, I must mention that as a person who is not in the legal professions I have surely learnt a lot here.
)
NM – No, not you too?!
Dari – “Lindelani
Your intense hatred for others is disturbing!
I don’t know what happened to make you feel this way, but you’re living proof that whites aren’t the only racists around!
You have a superiority complex, very characteristic of a Zuma supporter.”
Maybe all the hatred is because he’s Zulu? I don’t know many Zulu’s but I do know that if they are all like Lindilani we definately don’t want a Zulu ruling this country.
Lindilani, you are a disgrace to your race and culture. If this blog upsets you so much then go somewhere else
The problem dear Clara is that should it go JZ’s way today the pathetic people that have been threatening the justice system (also a direct threat to peace in SA and it’s future) will see it as a massive victory and we will be a leap closer to Zimbabwe! They will see it as a capitulation to their threats whether the decision is just or not!! As will everyone else in the world. Just because someone is popular that does not make him a good candidate for a president. And as for ruling SA do you honestly think he will have the power to do so? He owes some very powerful people VERY BIG favours. He will do as they please and will be nothing more than a dancing-clown on stage with a make-believe AK in his hands. Grow up people and smell the reek of impending doom.
Zama, you are a gem! Pity we do not have more enlightened people like you amongst us! gem!
Mouse, don’t be so shocked! Unfortunately I am a member of the salaried classes. I assure you my boss doesn’t mind if I take a quick peek at my favourite blog while having lunch at my desk.
I sometimes can’t restrain myself from finding out what’s being said here until I get home at night.
Lindelani,
I find your post on the Xhosas utterly offensive and inflamatory. And that is because I am a proud Xhosa. There have been many attacks on this blog on your character, something I thought was unfortunate. That is because I felt it would inhibit your rather elemantary take on things conveyed through the most basic writing skill. Its your democratic right to exhibit your simplicity.
But then I recalled reading somewhere about Abraham Lincoln having said something that went like this: “It is better to keep quiet and for people to think of you stupid than to speak and prove them right”. I am wondering if Lincoln had people like you in mind Lindelani?
What an ambassadar you are for the mighty Zulu nation!!!
NM, well said, I also log on during the day, but I have a very active social life and are rarely at home, life of a bachelor.
Anyway, although Lindelani seems immune to education, he learns a lot here, it will just take some time for it to sink in.
Soon as he realizes that his most intense insecurities are the ones he blames others for and that is the day he could apply for a job as an attorney.
NM – Im not shocked because you blog during the day on your employers’ expense, I also do thaht. What i am shocked about is that you, just like me, let your studies lie to one side in order to blog. I’m struggling to finalize mine in between court sessions and even after hours, but then, these discussion forums are so damned interesting.
Sorry, Mouse, I misunderstood you. Good luck with your studies, we need more people like you who are working hard to educate themselves.
The constitutionally speaking’s critisism of comrades Alex Mashilo and Thabo Kupa are misplaced in the extreme, and not only ignorant of historical facts relating to the case. There are three finding that beyond any reasonble doubt prove that the NPA, and tied to it the DSO (Scorpions) broke rule. One of these findings was made by the Public Protector (the NPA boss, and as usual, flanked by Mr Maduna rediculed this and the constitutionally speaking learnet friend said nothing), the other two were actually judgements by Msimang and Nicholson (12/09/08).
It’s so unsurprising how the capitalist system can turn a lernet friend into its operative.
I was proven right.
Regards,
Alex Mohubetswane Mashilo